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The Biblical Anarchy Podcast was created by Jacob Winograd as a project of the Libertarian Christian Institute, with the purpose of making the case for a free society and decentralized governance based on Biblical principles of limited authority and imitating Christ’s example of the leader/servant. If we render unto God what is God’s, we cannot bow down to Caesar or render anything unto him except that which he deserves. The podcast consists of exploring different Bible passages, anarchist theory, Austrian Economics, and finding the connection and harmony between them.
The Biblical Anarchy Podcast is part of the Christians for Liberty Network, a coalition of shows that promote human flourishing by spreading the message of liberty. Find other shows at christiansforliberty.net
Intro:
[0:00] If Christ is King, how should the Christian consider the kingdoms of this world? What does the Bible teach us about human authority and what it means to love our neighbors and our enemies? Before we render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, let's know what it means to render unto God what is God's. This is the Biblical Anarchy Podcast, the modern prophetic voice against war and empire. .
Jacob:
[0:32] Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Biblical Anarchy Podcast. So I recorded this episode a while ago, and then life happened, and I never cut around to releasing it. But I think a lot of the stuff I talked about with Caleb is very evergreen, and it was just an amazing conversation. And I'm really excited to share it with you guys now. I'm planning on doing more conversations with Caleb in the future. I think he's a really thoughtful guy. He's now my token Lutheran libertarian friend. So I guess I can check that off my bucket list. And.
Jacob:
[1:10] We have different walks of life in a way, and there's a generational gap, I suppose, which I kind of bring up in there. And it's just really interesting to kind of get into a lot of these different things and how we've come to a lot of the same conclusions. And just talking about how we can better communicate these ideas. As I kind of talked about in the last episode, I'm in some ways like less libertarian than I've been in the past and more libertarian than I've been and felt in the past. And so I don't know what that looks like. I don't know. You know what I mean? It sounds contradictory, but I'm still doing this because, as I said in the last episode, I think that.
Jacob:
[1:59] It's less about making Christians more libertarian and just thinking we need to make Christians more Christian. And if libertarianism is sort of a conduit, is a political philosophy that, sort of helps to convict us as Christians to rethink some of the things we do, and how we consistently love our neighbor and, you know, what being a Christian in the public squared on the world stage looks like. Well, I guess that's kind of why I care less and less about being a partisan for a political philosophy these days than I've ever been in my life. But I think the conversations like this show.
Jacob:
[2:43] Why I'm still libertarian, why I still continue to talk about it. So I hope you really enjoyed this conversation. Again, I definitely found talking to Caleb more sometime. This was our first one, and it was an absolute blast. So I'll talk to you on the other side. All right. I am here with Caleb Collier of the Church and State Podcast. Thanks for being with us, man. How are you doing tonight?
Caleb:
[3:05] I'm doing well. I appreciate the time. Love what you guys are doing over there at the Christian Libertarians. I'm one of you. And so it's about time that we met for sure.
Jacob:
[3:14] Yes. I really enjoyed your conversation with Norman Horn, our founder, over on your show, which I think that was like a month or so ago. It was just a really fantastic conversation. And it's always fun to, you know, we're a rare breed, Christian libertarians. I mean, we're growing in number, but it's one of those things where I was asked the other day, it was like, how many Christian libertarians are in your state? I was like, okay, man, there's got to be more than what I know. But I think I only know like five or six or something like that, you know? So it's like, what are the problems with being a Christian libertarian and doing a Christian libertarian podcast and trying to make it popular is you're doing a niche inside of a niche, right? Because you're already saying I'm a Christian. Then you're throwing the word libertarian in and then you confuse everyone. They don't know what you're talking about. Then they're also like, wait, you're doing faith and politics? What's that about? And you have that in your name too, church and state podcast. So you're, I kind of like when the podcast titles are just sort of like,
Jacob:
[4:12] right there in your face. Here's what we're talking about here laid on the line. Why don't you talk to me a little bit about just sort of your background in politics as a Christian, and then sort of what your podcast is about, what led to you creating it, and what sort of things do you like to focus and talk about on your show?
Caleb:
[4:32] Sure. Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity. I always like to start out with how I was born because it always gives people pause. And I will pause for you after I say this. I was actually born into a cult. So I was part of, my parents were part of a Christian hippie communist cult. They all lived together. They shared a common purse. And of course it failed miserably. And I'll pause and then we can go back into a little bit more of an intro. Cause I know you're going to want to say something there.
Jacob:
[4:57] Well, it's funny is that, I wasn't raised in that, but that was kind of the situation. My dad was raised in a little, over here on the east side of the state, she was part of the Pentecostal charismatic movements over here, which were heavily crossed over with a lot of, kind of hippie Christian types. And they had like church and a giant tent outside. And yeah, it's, there's pictures of my dad with like his long hippie hair and Jesus.
Caleb:
[5:28] That was my dad too. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. In fact, we were, the church was visited by representatives of Jim Jones. And so I like to say, I came this close to drinking the Kool-Aid.
Jacob:
[5:39] Oh gosh. Yeah. It's funny how many people use that expression and have no idea what it's about.
Caleb:
[5:46] Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. In fact, do you know the worst part of a Jim Jones joke?
Jacob:
[5:51] What is it?
Caleb:
[5:52] The punchline.
Jacob:
[5:53] Oh, that's a good one.
Caleb:
[5:57] Anyway, going back into the intro here. So I didn't last very long there. My parents got out of it when I was about two years old, so I have no memory of that. But my dad was very nomadic, and so we moved around quite a bit, up and down California, and then ultimately into Washington State. I was kind of a rough kid in high school, ended up joining the Marine Corps right out of high school to straighten myself up, get stationed right back down in California. Did my four, did from 1998 to literally four months after September 11th.
Caleb:
[6:25] So I didn't see any action. And then came up and started to get involved in politics. I worked as an EMT for a number of years. Started working more around the libertarian circles and the Constitution Party circles. And ultimately ended up getting a city council position in the city that I lived in. While I was on the city, yeah, and while I was on the city council, I did two things that were gonna guarantee that I would never get elected again. Number one, I fought against a vaccine mandate back in 2016. So before it was cool to fight against vaccine mandates and of course people didn't really like that. And then I also, our attorney general at the time, who unfortunately now is our governor, said that he was going to ban assault weapons, assault weapons, whatever those are, and high-capacity magazines. And so I tried to make my city a Second Amendment sanctuary city. And it was kind of tongue-in-cheek. It was right when all the sanctuary cities for illegal immigrants were occurring. And so I just kind of did this as...
Caleb:
[7:18] Kind of just to move the conversation forward. Ultimately, the Republican Party ran somebody against me and I lost my seat. And that got me into broadcasting. So I've been doing the show for nearly a decade. I've also worked for a number of political organizations, John Burst Society. Also worked for Charlie Kirk with TPUSA Faith.
Caleb:
[7:36] And currently, I work for another company called Mark37.com. We actually sell ghost phones, so phones that don't spy on you using Graphene OS. And then we also laptops that use Linux.
Jacob:
[7:49] Oh, okay. The whole phone. So is that like phones that don't do the, like, is that about like spying on you, like what you browse or the one that are like literally, because I know people are concerned about like the face recognition software and how it's like constantly scanning the room that you're in and your face whenever you're looking at the phone.
Caleb:
[8:08] So it's a whole lot more than that. Basically, what we do is we take a Pixel phone and we strip Google as the operating service completely out of it. And then we install something called Graphene OS, which is the most private secure operating system in the world. It's open source so people can check that. In fact, it's so good that the European Union and the United Nations are telling their citizens that only terrorists use Graphene OS. So it makes me want to use it, of course. Right. But yeah, at that operating level, it's very private, very secure. We don't say it's a silver bullet because nothing is. digital security and sovereignty is a little bit like whack-a-mole. You're constantly hitting when the government comes up and starts spying on you again. But yeah, my phone doesn't listen to me. Obviously, I'm using VPNs, fake GPS, encrypted texts, encrypted emails. And so there's multiple layers of privacy on this one. And then if all hell breaks loose, I also have a nuke code on my phone. If I ever got scooped up by some alphabet agency, I could enter a code into my phone and it would literally nuke it.
Jacob:
[9:03] Wow. All right. Well, I'm going to message you after the show to get more information on that, because that sounds intriguing. Privacy is so important. I feel like this wasn't what I was planning on talking to you about, but I feel like there's so many people, and I fall into this trap too, who think that whatever, all these agencies are just tracking me and there's nothing that we can do about it. But I know there's things we can do about it. We might be too lazy to do it. But whether we're talking about money and using crypto so that people can't track it or just it takes a little bit more work. Like, yeah, you can't go to your Verizon store or AT&T store and just instantly pick up something that's going to get you what you need. But there are even in the very statist dominated world we live in the free market does provide ways to, protect yourself from you know just the constant i mean i i get so sick of the, i guess the phone listening to you thing and then you go on social media one hour later and whatever you were talking about was just being advertised to you it's like that's.
Caleb:
[10:11] I don't have that problem anymore. Yeah, it's really nice. I can literally hold my phone up and start talking about needing a new television or wanting to go on a vacation. And I don't get any of that on my phone. We also have the capability of sandboxing specific apps. So like, for example, I have to use Uber because I travel a lot for both of my jobs. And, you know, good luck getting a cab in airports anymore. So I've sandboxed that app. I've isolated it on my phone to where it can still operate, but it doesn't have access to my phone. So it's a fantastic system. As you said, decentralized. This is the solution. You and I both know it as libertarians. And it really just took individuals who didn't look to government for a solution. They said, we're going to figure this out ourselves. And in typical libertarian fashion, they left it open source. They left it open for the public to be able to utilize. So if anybody's interested in it, mark37.com is the website. Go check them out. Their phones are very, very affordable. And if you use that promo code church and state, actually, you'll get a discount on it.
Jacob:
[11:09] Well, there you go. Good plug there. So speaking of libertarians and privacy, and I think that privacy shouldn't just be a libertarian value. I was just in a X space last night, and I consider myself a true conservative as well as a libertarian. But, man, there are so many fake, phony conservatives out there that just look to – this was like I was complaining to this one guy last night who's also a Christian and was even, like – we're both – so I'm from more of the reformed side of Christianity. And he was too. But he's just sitting there like every single point we were talking about, whether it was foreign policy, whether it was the war on drugs, just everything. He's just like talking about how we need the government to come in and solve the problem. And I was just like, like, when did conservatives just become such, what's the right word for it? Apologists is the most PG word I can think of for for for just like, let's go to the government to solve all of our problems. And the whole space was about Thomas Massey. And of course, that's been kind of a big subject this week and all the different podcasters and even the corporate media talking about what his loss in Kentucky and his district means going forward. And it's just so beyond just analyzing that race.
Jacob:
[12:38] I just don't understand. I mean, I do understand because I think it has a lot to do with political tribalism. But like, what are your thoughts? Like, why is it that so many people have turned on Thomas Massey when I don't know if I could think of or I don't know if I could write, you know what I mean? Like, like makeup of like writing a comic book or like a, I don't know, some kind of, crappy fan fiction or something like, you know, I don't know if I could make up in my imagination a better example of like constitutional conservative christian republican, congressman i mean he's just like the i mean no one's perfect other than jesus but you know i think thomas massey is like, He just checks all the boxes. I don't know how anyone could dislike him or root against him. What are your thoughts on the Thomas Massey hate?
Caleb:
[13:30] Yeah, and if I may, let me backtrack to some of the things that you were saying prior, and then I'll get to Thomas Massey. But props to you for being reformed. I myself am Lutheran, so I really have a deep respect for the more mainline Protestant churches that have not gone woke, I should say. I always have to qualify when I say I'm a Lutheran. I'm the good kind, not the bad kind. I'm not the woke side of this.
Jacob:
[13:52] Missouri Synod?
Caleb:
[13:53] Absolutely. Missouri. But we are seeing a massive draw from especially young men that are going towards the Orthodox Church, the mainline Protestant churches. Catholicism is growing as well. And it's because people are wanting structure, moving away from that emotionalism that you find so prevalent in non-denominational and Pentecostal churches. And in a lot of cases, unfortunately, they've been very hyper-feminized. And we can come back to that, too, if you want to a little bit later, you know, going forward and then talking about conservatives and how they really just kind of approached this this big government system of like, as you said, as an apologist, I mean, I can tell you firsthand from working for TPUSA Faith, where I was literally the lone libertarian on staff. There's a lot of that going around. It's like if if Trump's in power or a Republican or conservative, whatever you want to call them, they're in power, then they like big daddy government. You know, they're all on board with it. As soon as it flips, as it always does, you know, then they're anti-government
Caleb:
[14:56] Or, you know, small government or big government sucks or something like that. But I was recently at CPAC. I've been invited as a journalist for Church and State. And Ted Cruz was actually giving a speech. And I can't stand Ted Cruz. I really dislike that guy. Okay. But he's talking to the audience and they're all cheering. They're all excited. Oh, I'm so close to Ted Cruz. But he opens the speech by talking about how big government sucks and then starts slapping himself on the back for for big government policies that he's pushed through. And I'm like, which one is it, Ted? Like, does big government suck or does it not? I mean, he's he's advocating for this this big, beautiful bill and talking about how the youth are going to get, you know, some some money put into account for them. And I'm like, is that not big government? Like, is there such a disconnect?
Jacob:
[15:46] It's like a person telling you to eat a salad and exercise and lose weight while they're like 500 pounds and eating a donut. It's just like, I mean, I don't know. You might not be the person I want to listen to about nutritional advice. So the people who have, I mean, this is an unfortunate statistic, which I'm sure you're aware of, but, a lot of the biggest expansions in government, and this isn't to give a pass to the Democratic Party, a lot of the biggest expansions in my lifetime, have come through the Republican Party, whether we're talking about spending, we're talking about expanding the power of the executive branch through executive orders. Obviously, military and war is a really big thing.
Jacob:
[16:30] For sure, there are obviously equally bad things that happened on the Obamacare is probably one of the biggest expansions of government control into the market from the Democratic side that I can at least cite off the top of my head. So again, it's not to give them a pass, but I don't know. I mean, I don't know how you would calculate this exactly, but it feels like all the biggest expansions of government power and spending in my lifetime have come by the party that likes to LARP as libertarians. And like I always throw that at them because people will come to I've been involved in the libertarian party a long time and they'll be like, oh, libertarians, you guys just LARP as a political party. I was like, well. Maybe that's, you know, that criticism can ring true sometimes. I'm not always proud of the libertarian party and the decisions it makes with the people it nominates and elects. But at least we're actually libertarians and not just pretending to be. You know i feel like i feel like every like you just said ted cruz i feel like ted cruz thinks he's thomas massey, really just like i don't know like find me the the other than maybe abortion find me the major policy disagreement ted cruz has with like hillary clinton, i mean you wouldn't be able to the same.
Caleb:
[17:43] Person yeah yeah yeah it's it's like that office meme where it's a corporate wants you to find this the difference between these two pictures and pam's over
Caleb:
[17:51] there going, it's the same picture. It's the same. That's our, that's our unit party. And if you really examine the unit party, there's, there's clear distinctions, you know, on, on, on the Democrat side, they are the welfare party on the Republican side. They are the warfare party, but both of them have an empire state of mind. And that's really where our Republic has gotten to where we operate as an empire. I mean, if you, I've been talking about this a lot lately, actually on my show, have you ever looked at the amount of foreign bases the United States has versus all other countries in the world, it'll blow your mind. I mean, China is supposed to be our greatest threat, and they have one foreign military base on record, and that's in Djibouti. Other than that, I mean, like you just look at South Korea, for example. There's like 80 military bases, U.S. military bases in South Korea. Are we operating as an empire? Absolutely, we are. We stick our noses in everybody else's business. We're currently in this boondoggle with Iran. We went and kidnapped the president of Venezuela. And that's not an act of war. But if Canada got uppity and kidnapped our president, I think we think it was an act of war. But that's the disconnect, once again, of these people that are caught in this two party tribalism.
Jacob:
[19:03] No, you're 100% correct. And I like the whole military bases. I think one of my favorite memes describing that is people showing Iran, ironically enough, and like, Iran obviously wants war with America. Look how close they put their country to our military bases. You see Iran just surrounded by U.S. military bases. I mean, it's just, it's insane. I don't know. So it's like a walking contradiction to be like, we're the party of limited government and wanting to be a constitutional republic and also be a giant military empire. And the only argument I hear from conservatives on that is like, well, if we don't dominate the world, then China or Russia will. And for one, I think it's a bit of a moral fallacy because it's kind of like saying, well, I don't mug these people. Then someone else is going to come around and mug these people. It's like, even if that's true, I don't know that that's a moral argument to say you should go and mug them. But second of all, it's like we have still to this day the most vibrant, productive economy.
Jacob:
[20:12] There are up-and-comers like India, and Brazil is kind of in that category, I suppose. China's kind of a weird mixed bag of contradictions and who knows if you can trust their economic data but it's like, we can't even afford to do this we can only afford to do this through trying to impose by fiat like dependency on the petrodollar and through printing ourselves into endless debt so like sure I, I'm not pretending that China and Russia are saints and that they wouldn't try to maybe exert more regional influence on their neighbors and maybe in ways that would be, would be negative. Yeah.
Jacob:
[20:55] But I certainly don't think that if we withdrew from the world, that like suddenly China would have military bases all over the world to the same scale that that we have. At least that's just my thought. I guess it's a counterfactual we haven't played out yet. But yeah, I don't know. What do you say to the conservatives who who make that argument? Because that's the one that's the biggest reason I hear that justifies, especially after they flipped on the issue of saying, well, we're voting for Trump because he started no new wars. And now it's like, oh, well, you know, well, these wars are justified because, they're in America's interest because we have to have the American empire in order to protect trade and protect. So I don't know. It's it's also goofy to me. But what are your thoughts on it?
Caleb:
[21:43] Yeah, you know, conservatives and liberals like to hold libertarians to impossible standards. And they do this very intentionally. So they never want to talk about the fact that their parties are both failing the American people. No, but they want to hold libertarians. So your ideas wouldn't ever work if we applied them. Well, why not give it a shot? Why don't I give it a try? I mean, I would actually say that our founding fathers were more libertarian. You know, obviously, this word didn't exist for them during that time. But yes, if you if you look at what they gave us through the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, you see very, very much a lot of libertarian principles, including the non-aggression principles. And they warned us against foreign wars and not getting entangled in them. And so, yes, a libertarian system has worked in the past, but they don't ever want us to talk about that. They don't even want us to talk about the fact that we're a republic instead of a democracy, right? They love to throw that title at us, that we're a democracy,
Caleb:
[22:39] because they know that a democracy is going to fail. And that's their plan all along. And so when it comes to foreign policies...
Caleb:
[22:46] Look, we have, you know, I love what Ron Paul said during one of his debates. They were talking about some need for a war and there's always a need for a war, right? There's always Libya or Syria or Iraq or Afghanistan or Ukraine or Iran. I mean, it's just a list is going on and on and on. And I also love to point out General Wesley Clark, who was running for president when he talked about the countries that don't have world banks in them. And he actually said, these are the countries we're going to invade in the future. And he literally named all those countries that I just named. And so you can clearly see intentionality behind all of these attacks. But Ron Paul, when asked about this, you know, he suggested that we use our diplomats, that we use diplomacy. I firmly believe, and I know you're right there with me, that a lot of the issues that is facing the American public right now, a lot of the reasons why the rest of the world seems to hate us is because we're operating as an empire.
Jacob:
[23:37] Yeah, no, 100 percent. And I'm a broken record on this, but I just think it is so important because like the Ron Paul, obviously his central message was end the Fed. But it was talking about the Federal Reserve as a sort of like, this is the root cause of so many problems in our society, the inflationary culture that.
Jacob:
[24:04] Artificially low interest rates and just dumping cheap money into banks to then just pump into the economy, how that completely distorts signals. And it doesn't just lead to like stock market crashes or housing market crashes, which hurts people economically, but it completely like rewires the incentives for how people save and spend, which actually. It drives us towards a consumption economy where we don't care about the future. We're just consuming everything for the here and now. And then it's kind of like, oh, wow. And now we have a culture of people that are just very hedonistic, in the moment, pleasure seekers and don't care about the future. Don't want to have families. Don't want to buy houses. Don't want to build something multigenerational. There's a rise in nihilism and depression and suicidal ideation. But then it's like war is also such a huge component on this. And I wonder if you would agree with me from someone who has more, I guess, like you were in it more than I am. And there's a bit of a generational gap here.
Jacob:
[25:14] I can sometimes struggle to communicate this to people that I feel like our, the American presence as a world empire, especially like after 2011 and the war on terror. I feel like there was this lost opportunity where the Christian evangelical right, had the sort of kind of like the left then had this later, but the right held it for a time under George Bush, this sort of like political and cultural mandate, in our country. And they blew it on war in Afghanistan, war in Iraq, all those other countries, which just –, to me, that was working in tandem with the monetary and economic side of things, to just hollow out the moral fabric of society and the cultural bonds and the community bonds. And there's something –.
Jacob:
[26:10] It's catastrophically destructive to the, not to the gospel itself, but to the witness of the church to preach the gospel. When you have leaders who were at least proclaiming to be Christian, engaging in imperialism, often in the name of Christianity, taking, I think, the name of Christ in vain. And it's there's people who I think they they they discount the impact that has towards a lot of people in my generation leaving the church doing like like deconstruction and, theological liberalism leading to people just becoming no longer Christian. There's a huge impact that these political choices from supposedly Christian leaders had in creating that in the first place, because by your fruits, you will know them. right? What was the fruits of the American church from the 90s to today? I mean, not very good when you're looking at the political landscape.
Caleb:
[27:11] Yeah. I mean, the cold, hard slap in the face for every Christian is this. Politics, they use Christians. And I've seen it over and over and over again, and you have as well. And by the way, that was the nicest way I've ever been called an old man.
Caleb:
[27:23] Sorry. I appreciate that. But yeah, no, Christians get used. And Bush did this very, very well and you had you know the moral majority and you always see this that the republican party will court christianity and they'll give them a lot of promises during the campaign season and then ultimately when it comes to where they're initiating policy no you guys don't have a seat at the table anymore and and actually i'm most fearful of what's currently going on in the american church surrounding trump and you're seeing this rise i mean we've already been dealing with things like the prosperity gospel or the word of faith movement but the newest nasty beast on the scene is called the New Apostolic Reformation. And I actually devote a considerable amount of time on my show talking about this modern heresy. Have you ever heard of this?
Jacob:
[28:08] A little bit, but I don't know as much about it as you know.
Caleb:
[28:12] So the New Apostolic Reformation is a very man-centric theology. They believe in something called the Seven Mountain Mandate, and they've identified these mountains as spheres of influence that they have to control. They believe that once Christians control these seven spheres, and there are things like education and politics and family and media, things like that. But once they have control, that there will be this great transfer of wealth from the globalists, the secularists, to the church, and then Jesus will return. Some of them even go as far as to say that Jesus can't return until they take these seven mountains.
Caleb:
[28:46] And this is what is influencing the Christians that are surrounding themselves around Donald Trump, people like Paula White, who has no business being the White House faith leader. But there's a lot of other players in this as well. Cheon is running for governor of California. They're inserting themselves into politics because it's part of their theology and their theology is not honoring christ you know they it's almost like marvel christianity if you will they believe that they're going to get these superpowers right and and they'll be able to you know benny hen style take off my jacket waving around people fall to the ground that's the kind of thing that's going on in the american church now we need to return back to what the word of god actually says an emphasis on scripture instead of how our hearts are feeling because as you know very well. The Bible tells us that the heart is desperately wicked. And so Trump feels like he can do anything and everything and anyone surrounding Trump can do the same things because they know the Christians are going to excuse any and all behaviors.
Jacob:
[29:43] I spent the last year writing actually two books, sort of, because I helped write the upcoming second edition to Faith Seeking Freedom. And then I've written my own book, which is now working in the editing process and will come out later this year. And I kind of go through in one of my chapters in a way that almost might lose – like there's a risk I might lose readers because of how long I do this. But I do it to make a point. I kind of walk through virtually all the major and minor prophets, very deliberately establishing the pattern that I think we as Christians in here today, which is being a prophetic witness that speaks truth to power. And there's something about this whole like faith office thing that just, you know, like flies in the face of scripture in terms of like.
Jacob:
[30:40] The model is way more often in the Bible of God's people not being cozy with those in power to be like, you know, hey, we're buddy, buddy, and we're going to support what you do. And like the whole like Paula White thing, like to what was it like to go against Donald to say no to Trump as to say no to God is what you said is just like, huh? It's like okay let's compare that to the biblical record and how many times like, like what what did god have to say about the like what were called prophets at the time who were on the side of, the the kings and leaders and empires whether it was israel or babylon or syria or whatever and and how often was it just like you know, samuel or elijah or etc just you know a very small remnant sometimes just one, person who refused to go who did say no because actually to say no to leaders is often required in order to say yes to god so it's just there's this weird and i don't know if it's i.
Jacob:
[31:49] I my conviction and this there might be other problems in other countries that maybe are similar or they they they had their own unique challenges but i think in america we have this unique problem of, sort of like a false patriotism because i'm not necessarily against i think patriotism, can be salvaged like a certain type of patriotism but there's this this phony patriotism that sort of supposes that, to be a good christian means being a good American and supporting what America does and not criticizing America, not criticizing our leaders, unless they're Democrats, I guess. That's the only time you're allowed to criticize our leaders. And there's this...
Jacob:
[32:40] In biblical and world history, the times where God's people can be like, we're really proud and happy to be living under the government that we're living under, that's kind of the exception and not the rule. Listen, there's times in America where I think it's like, yeah, the government was, I mean, it might not be, there was always going to be things that I think you could criticize about the American founding. It wasn't perfect, but I don't know. It was definitely way better than what we have now in many aspects, other than the obvious ones like slavery and other things you could point to.
Jacob:
[33:15] But yeah, what are your thoughts on that in terms of that sort of – I think I feel hard – it's very hard for me to talk about this because I used to be on the left. And so I feel like when I talk about this, people are just going to dig that up and be like, oh, well, of course, like you're you're going to be down on loving America because you're just used to be a lefty. And so you're still just a left. I never really hated America. I just America can be a sacred cow just like anything else can be. Right.
Caleb:
[33:46] Sure, it absolutely can. And allow me to insert myself since, you know, my pedigree does not include being part of any leftists, right? So they can't really come at me, Marine Corps veteran, worked in politics, you know, turning point, all this stuff. And so I can say that I completely agree with what you're saying. Now, I am a minarchist. I'm going to throw myself under the bus. I'm not an anarchist. So I know that makes me a statist in so many people's eyes, but I'm pretty close, guys. Come on, give me a little bit of grace here, right? And so for me, patriotism can be a very positive thing. I believe in very, very, very tiny government, but I do believe, as the Bible says, God is the God of nations. And so I think if we can move that direction towards a more minarchist state, I think even the anarchists would be pretty happy with that. I got to be honest with you.
Caleb:
[34:30] You're already nodding in agreement. And so, yeah, Americans who are Christian, but they wrap their Christianity in the American flag, you're doing it wrong. Okay, you are doing it wrong. Is it okay to love America? Absolutely. America has done some amazing things over the years. Okay. And I'm not saying that you have to, if you, if you decide to become a libertarian, that you just automatically despise all nations. That's, that's not necessarily the case, ladies and gentlemen, but our Christianity should come before really anything else. It should come before our family. It should become before our, our nations, our patriotism, our jobs, all that kind of stuff, right? Our relationship with Christ matters most. And if our country is violating things like the non-aggression principles and any libertarian that is okay with abortion,
Caleb:
[35:18] I would examine those non-aggression principles again, just a little bit, real close, you know, because that seems to be a pretty clear violation. But if it's violating that, then you know what? Speak out against it. It is your duty as a Christian.
Jacob:
[35:30] Wait, wait. This whole loving Christ and Christianity more than even our family? Are you saying Jesus came to set brother against brother or something like that?
Caleb:
[35:38] Weird how I read that somewhere, huh?
Jacob:
[35:41] I mean, but it's like, you know, yeah, I 100% agree with that. I think... It's again, I don't know what it is about. I mean, I think I know what it is. I think it's it's partly the church. It's partly public education that like we're raised in this mythos of American exceptionalism and in all things. And i think that's really hard for some people to to let go of but i i feel like and i don't think this is like a lefty thing like i'm not against the idea of nations i'm not even against the idea like to say this very carefully, like you can even find i think you can there's like not pride but like a a healthy, i can't find the right word i don't want to say veneration like respect or admiration or fondness for national heritage, for ethnic heritage, even like these. I think that, as Paul said, all things can be in their proper time and place, can be.
Jacob:
[36:44] Can be edifying and building up and beneficial as long as they're not becoming more important than the main things that we're supposed to keep them. Like we don't like when in Galatians, I think some like more theological liberal reading of like, say like Galatians three, where it says there is no Jew, no Greek, no male, no female would just be like, Oh, that means these categories don't exist anymore. And we're all just one amorphous blob. And it's like, well, I don't think we have to like literally be colorblind or, gender blind right and be like oh well so like the distinctions between men and women don't matter and the distinctions between, you know different ethnicities and races like don't matter like i mean i think.
Jacob:
[37:26] They they matter insofar as like god made these things and like he made us male and female for a reason we have different ethnicities for for a reason and i think that like they're all made in god's image and we're all, we're all equal in god's eyes but like differences can be good and celebrate it i mean like i'm really glad that there's other ethnicities out there and cultures that have created food because american food sucks right i mean american culture is only good when it's really just trying to imitate and take the best from other people's cultures and, and music and and dance and art and food and things like that so i think that, in a i mean it sounds cheesy but like i think diversity is our strength in a way not in the way though like the left only one's diversity of like the most superficial things but i think true diversity in god's kingdom is a, is a really good thing but like there's some people who whether it's race or whether it's a a a nation or heck even an ideology because i've seen some christians, Even they do this with political ideologies, right? You can even do this with libertarianism if you're not careful.
Jacob:
[38:35] You make an idol and a stumbling block out of something that could normally be good, but it's not in its proper place. And so it causes you to take your eyes off of God. And like something, just because something can be good doesn't mean it can't be used in a sinful way. Sex is really good. It can be used in a sinful way. I mean, anything, I mean, there's no limit on what human depravity can do to take things from God's good creation and use them towards ends that were never intended.
Caleb:
[39:04] Yeah no i i absolutely agree with that you know that the human existence is a constant combat between the flesh and the spirit right and and our flesh is constantly looking for ways to uh derail us if you will because we're sinful by nature and so everything in creation has that mark of sin upon it and if you put your eyes on something other than god you're going to be led astray that the reality is human beings were made to worship and we are made to worship God. Now, if you don't believe in God, if you, if you don't take that gift of salvation, then you're going to worship something else. And it can look like a lot of different things. It can look like a political ideology. It can look like self, which unfortunately, as you pointed to with the massive amount of hedonism here in America, yeah, we're, we're a culture of worshiping ourselves. And so we need If we really want to be effective, and I'll just say this to just any Christian out there, I don't care if you're a Christian Republican, a Christian conservative, a Christian libertarian, Christian Democrats is kind of, I don't know how you're there, but if you're there, look, Christianity is the most important thing. Let's unite together, at least on that, win more souls for Christ, because at the end of the day, when you die, when I die, you know, it's not going to matter if I was a libertarian or a or a Democrat. It's going to matter if I actually knew Jesus.
Jacob:
[40:25] No, I 100% agree with that. I think so.
Jacob:
[40:30] When you're talking about we're both libertarians, and we don't need to get into the whole like weeds of anarchy versus minarchy. I mean, I feel like anyone who is not a libertarian, they're going to be confused, right? When you start getting into that stuff. And I tend to think that other than, I guess, when you're a cage stage libertarian, you really care about the anarchy versus anarchy debate. And then just like when you're either a cage stage Lutheran or Calvinist, you really care about like, you know, we have the correct soteriology and we're going to go and, you know, proselytize everyone else to.
Caleb:
[41:08] Those are cigar debates. Exactly. That's what those are for.
Jacob:
[41:12] They're really fun in that context. Right. But it's funny how this is kind of a tangent, but I think you'll agree. It's like the two things that I identify with, I guess, the most in terms of where I get my worldviews from are obviously the Bible and Christianity first. And libertarianism is a, I think, very compatible outworking of Christian principles and as a political ideology. And I draw from that, too. But then like within the church and within the libertarian movement, it's like, you know.
Jacob:
[41:46] Like, oh, a bunch of people who believe in the same God and religion and book and a bunch of people who believe in free markets and peace and social cooperation and prosperity. And it's like, I bet they all get along really well with each other and are great, great, you know, ambassadors for their ideology to the rest of the world. Unfortunately, as you can tell from my tongue and cheek tone, not often the case, unfortunately, whether it but so it's like the there's this weird thing where like. Like you're you're lutheran and i'm reformed and it's like i think for the most part that gets along pretty chill now but there are some people who are just like you know well if you, if you don't affirm this exact confession and you don't you know baptize your babies or you don't do this or that it's like then you're a heretic and we we can't even like talk like we're not even the same thing and libertarians do the same thing over like, anarchism versus minarchism and i'm i'm saying this as a as a like diehard anarchist whose podcast name is biblical anarchy but i just i i don't care to like make, to be like you know sorry caleb like you're a filthy minarchist statist so like you're not a liver it's like no one that the truth is, no one who understands who's not part of this libertarian world could even under like they wouldn't understand the difference between minarchism and anarchism and they'd probably accuse you of being an anarchist as you tried to describe what you think the ideal.
Caleb:
[43:16] Oh, it happens all the time.
Jacob:
[43:17] Yeah. So it's, it's just so silly and, and contrived. And I just, yeah, I, I, I don't care about that debate anymore other than, yeah, it's a fun cigar debate. I think you would pretty much agree with that.
Caleb:
[43:30] Yeah, absolutely. One of my great joys is, is lighting up a cigar and taking an hour and discussing, you know, theology and, you know, you brought up the reform versus the Lutherans. Then we'll talk about the Eucharist or double predestination. You know, those are fun conversations to have. But if you're on a podcast and you're trying to reach the masses, maybe not the thing, you know, you don't want to get into the weeds on that one. We want to focus on the idea that, hey, people want to live free.
Caleb:
[43:55] They want liberty. And there are ways to achieve that. So let's talk about this. Now, you asked me about Thomas Massey, and I wanted to go back to that because I always want to be cognizant of that for the audience because they're like, I wanted to hear about Thomas Massey. And then we never get because you and I are having so much fun talking about all this other stuff. Thomas Massey, you know, the John Birch Society, which was a is a phenomenal organization, been around since the 50s fighting communism in this country. They do a scorecard every single actually every two years or maybe even be every year. Either way, they rank them. You know, it's like a report card on how well they adhered to their oath of office to uphold and defend the Constitution. And Thomas Massey got A pluses every single year. And so, yes, he was absolutely the best representative we possibly had. We haven't seen somebody like that since Ron Paul left, really. And, you know, I mean, I think as libertarians, everybody does the the Coke Diet Coke of Ron Paul versus Rand Paul. So Thomas Massey was our guy. OK, he was our one guy in there. And what happened?
Caleb:
[44:58] He made the colossal mistake of going against Trump and his policies, because if you're in the Republican Party, if you're part of MAGA, man, you cannot say a word against Donald Trump. And so he started calling him out because Donald Trump was violating the Constitution. He also took that oath to uphold and defend. And so what did they do?
Caleb:
[45:18] They got some cutout who was a horrible public speaker, wouldn't debate Thomas Massey at any point. His election party was like 20 people in the audience, which is insane. And then he gets millions upon millions of dollars, the most expensive congressional race in our history. And most of that money came directly from AIPAC, which is a whole nother conversation. One I'm not afraid to discuss. I mean, you're Reformed. I'm Lutheran. We both believe in covenant theology. So we're not dispensationalists saying Israel can do no wrong. Nope. You know what? I call out any country I want because, well, that's my theology. And so that's that's basically the breakdown. It looks like there was massive amounts of election fraud as well with Thomas Massey. And my my theory on this, Donald Trump went into office saying that he was going to take care of election integrity. We all saw 2020. I think most people can identify that there was a massive amount of fraud when Joe Biden got in. Well, now Donald Trump controls that. And it's just like when the Republicans get in office against the Democrats and they were moaning about these rubber stamps that were coming from the executive office, these executive orders,
Caleb:
[46:29] And they never change it. They never do because they want that same authority. And so it looks to me like Donald Trump wanted the ability to actually control elections. And we saw the example of that with Thomas Massey.
Jacob:
[46:41] I 100% agree with that analysis. And it, again, I think it's just, it's not unique to Trump in a sense. I think Trump just exemplifies it. It makes it more obvious and apparent and in its ugliest form, this sort of just like political tribalism. And this, it's not that I love the Democrats. But again, I just, there's a sort of like, well, we can't let the Democrats win. And it's like, well, tell me what's going to be different. Like if the Democrats win, what's going to happen? They're going to also like go to war in the Middle East. Are they going to also spend like money we don't have and not cut spending and not cut taxes? And are they going to also like continue to expand the police state? You know, they're going to also can I'm just like, I don't know. I don't notice a whole lot of a difference between them. The only issue that I see a difference between them on, and most of it's on rhetoric, is abortion. But again, most of it's kind of rhetoric, and no one wants to have, again, it's like, what happened to the Republican Party that said government should be the last resort, not the first one to solve a problem?
Jacob:
[47:59] You don't see conservatives like that anymore. And it's like the criminal justice system, whatever legal system you have, should be seen as every other societal institution to solve this problem has been failed and the law is the last resort to come in and to try to, it's not even a great solution, right? It's just kind of like, I think in a biblical sense, civil governance exists only to like, achieve a kind of approximate justice right because true justice isn't achievable by human means true justice is only that's, that's on a divine level we can't create, a utopia here and yet there it seems for all the ideas of like well you libertarians just live pie in the sky and it's utopian idea that, people will just get along and not have conflict it's like no it's just the, rejection of the utopian idea that like we can just, usher in enough violence from a centralized monopoly to just make people, behave better like especially jacob our.
Caleb:
[49:04] Ideas work libertarian ideas work and we have examples of that so many times you look at like parks for example right and people are like oh you don't you don't like public parks no i hate them okay and you know what private parks work ever been to disneyland oh look at that it works and it's clean you don't have homeless people all over the place, private parks work. You look at roads, for example, they always want to talk about the roads, right? And yet in so many states throughout this country, they're already paying tolls. You already through your taxpayer dollars built that highway and then to drive on it, you're paying a toll as well. Guess what? Toll highways work. They could absolutely work. You get a private individual who builds a highway. You want to use that, you pay a toll for it. Shocking, mind blowing.
Jacob:
[49:46] And the private roads are actually maintained, Whereas this can vary state by state, but if you're in a state like where I live in Pennsylvania, the running joke is without the government, who would put all the pot, you know, all the potholes in the road and leave them there? That's why, like, did you see the commercials like Domino's pizza going out and filling pot?
Caleb:
[50:02] Oh, I loved it. Yeah, absolutely. It was amazing.
Jacob:
[50:04] Yeah, it's like, wait, wait, I thought that was the government's job. But the government's what gave us roads.
Caleb:
[50:08] I mean, it made me eat Domino's pizza. I don't even think their pizza is all that great. And I was like, I'm going to Domino's. I don't care.
Jacob:
[50:14] It's just great. Especially as Christians. I feel like we should like be against this idea that like, well, we're going to solve the human condition of sinfulness by concentrating power in the hands of what sinful people. Doesn't seem like a great plan. And, you know, I don't know. Be cool if there was a passage in the Bible that God warned people that like, electing some kind of strong man to solve all their problems for them wasn't going to go very well i mean i don't know i guess.
Caleb:
[50:47] I can't think of any examples i can't think of any examples i'm lost yeah the bible is filled with stories like that and the bible is filled with people who said no to government and they're the heroes of it right you've got you got you got the uh the midwives with with moses you know there was a clear direction from the government to kill all the babies. And what did they say? Oh, look, a very libertarian principle. I'm not going to engage in aggression against an innocent. And so they disobeyed and they were the heroes of the Bible. And that's just one. You can read through the Bible and see, and I'm not saying like look through it through the lens of libertarianism, but you can see libertarian principles. Why? Because libertarianism, non-aggression principles, it comes from the Bible. All right. When our founding fathers with the Declaration of Independence talked about natural law and the laws of nature's God, right? That's because these laws that make sense, don't murder, don't steal, these kinds of things. Yeah. That's because it's God's laws. And when you violate God's laws, guess what happens? Well, I'll save you the study. Bad things happen.
Jacob:
[51:51] Bad things happen. Yeah. And I feel like you brought up covenant theology, which it's funny. So I'm one of the couple of reformed people here at LCI.
Jacob:
[51:59] And of course, we bring up covenant theology a lot. And then all the non-reformed people make fun of us for this like, here they go again talking about covenant theology but I feel like, it's so important because even if there are people who aren't overtly dispensationalist, I feel like, and it's not even just with the Israel issue, I think it's, if you have a fundamental misunderstanding about the covenantal ordering of.
Jacob:
[52:28] How we fit in in our current age with God and the.
Jacob:
[52:35] Where we fit like where that fits in redemptive history and what the role of the church like these are kind of like foundational, premises and stances you have to have to then even get to a like a conversation about, what should government do right like like i 100 agree with like like when norman was on your show he's always great to point this out that people always want to start with romans 13 but they don't it's like well maybe we should see what the whole bible says, and then you know like not romans 13 is not the starting point there's no one in the bible that says well hold up before we have a conversation with government about what the government should do you need to go read chapter romans 13 and then come back and read the rest of the bible no it's not how you read the bible, and so like i 100 agree with him there.
Jacob:
[53:22] I would just add to that that i think you need a, like it's kind of like a what rc sprall used to say it's like you no one has, like, no Christian can say that they don't have a theology of predestination, right? Because the Bible clearly talks about predestination, so you have to have a theology about it, whether it's double predestination or whatever, right? You can debate about what that doctrine is, but you've got to have a doctrine about it. And, like, you have to have a doctrine about the covenants. I don't see any way around that. So, whatever your covenant about the, whatever your doctrine about the covenants are, It's going to be very instructive about what you think the role of the church is and the role of the state is, which would be a good name for a podcast. Church and state podcast.
Caleb:
[54:08] There you go. That's perfect right there. And, yeah, I know we're winding down here. And I'll just say this about this. You know, explore covenant theology, Christian, because it does make sense. It makes absolute sense. And this is something that, traditionally, this was taught by the church for centuries. Dispensation. I love when they call it replacement theology or covenant theology. It's like if you were being honest, dispensationalism is replacement theology because this didn't come around till Schofield and Darby. And if you ever want to examine those two characters, well, let's just say I highly recommend it because you're going to come away a little bit upset about some of your theology. But yet, look, it makes sense. The Bible from from cover to cover, it shows covenant theology. And so one thing I say on my show all the time is, look, don't believe me. I could be wrong about this. Do your own homework. That's what I want for people to investigate with everything that we've been talking about. Covenant theology, minarchism versus anarchism, different eschatologies. Go explore and come to your conclusion. Read, listen to people that are smarter
Caleb:
[55:09] than you. That's what I want for people. And because right now we're apathetic hedonists. And so, you know, as I'm closing, I'd love the opportunity.
Caleb:
[55:17] I myself have written a book as well, Political Incontinence. I highly recommend it. This is the perfect bathroom reader. It's just stupid quotes from politicians. Okay, just that's all it is. And I included their net worth in it as well. I'm also writing two more of these. The second one's going to be called Mainstream Manure, Stupid Quotes from People in the Media. In fact, my daughter suggested the title for that. And then my third one, I'm trying to win a lot of friends. It's called Holy Crap, and it's just stupid, stupid quotes from pastors. So, yeah, I'm trying to make friends here. And if you like the show, Jacob, you know, for your audience, churchandstate.media. We've interviewed a lot of different people over the years. Probably the highlight for me was Dr. Ron Paul had a little bit of the Wayne's World moment. We're Not Worthy when I got them on the show. But check it out. And as soon as you get on the website, the annoying pop-up is going to come. And if you want to get our newsletter, fill that out. And I also personally call every single person who fills that out. So if a lot of you do it, be gentle. Sometimes it takes me a little bit to, to call every one of you.
Jacob:
[56:15] Awesome. Well, yeah, absolutely. Everyone should go and check out your show. Great conversations over there and definitely go and check out the conversation you had with Norman. And yeah, I mean, I agree with everything you said. I always like to end with like a short, final closing question. So what is one book of the Bible that, everyone has a favorite book of the Bible, but what's one book of the Bible you think that Christians need to read more of?
Caleb:
[56:43] Oh man, that's a deep question. Man, I mean, people are infatuated with eschatology and I myself actually came out of that camp. I would actually, on a reverse side of that question, don't put such an emphasis on Revelation because a lot of it is very confusing and can steer you in the wrong direction. Yes, the Lord is coming back, but our directive is to do what? To spread the gospel, the good news, and to care for widows and orphans, not to come up with dates that Christ is going to return. You know, as a Lutheran, we put such an emphasis on the gospels, and I suppose I would land on that one. Read the gospels, read Jesus's own words. If you have questions about how you're to behave, how you're supposed to treat people, there's no better instructor than Jesus Christ. And so Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Try that. I guarantee you, if you apply the things that are taught in that, you're going to live a better life.
Jacob:
[57:36] You can't go wrong with those recommendations. Well, thank you, Caleb, for being here. Thank you, everyone, for listening. And we'll talk to you guys again next time. Take care. All right, everyone. Thanks for tuning in and listening. And I hope you like this. I hope you're excited now that I'm back. If you're not, then I hope I can make you excited because I'm excited to be back. It's harder than ever to find time to do this and if you like conversations like this and you want to see me, you know creating content talking about these ideas that they mean as much to you as they mean to me, liking this video sharing subscribing you know is is a big help if you go to biblical anarchy podcast.com and click the donate link to support the libertarian christian institute they go through my link they know it was me they sent that sent you and it just helps to support the show and support the mission that we're doing here at lci and of course i want to plug if you haven't gotten it already to make sure you get your copy of faith seeking freedom the second edition of which i am a co-author of and keep your eyes open for my book which is coming out in the near future, that's all i have for you guys for today live at peace and live for christ take care.
Outro:
[58:49] The Biblical Anarchy Podcast is a part of the Christians for Liberty Network, a project of the Libertarian Christian Institute. If you love this podcast, it helps us reach more with a message of freedom when you rate and review us on your favorite podcast apps and share with others. If you want to support the production of the Biblical Anarchy Podcast, please consider donating to the Libertarian Christian Institute at biblicalanarchypodcast.com, where you can also sign up to receive special announcements and resources related to biblical anarchy. Thanks for tuning in.