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More to the Story with Dr. Andy Miller III is a podcast exploring theology in the orthodox Wesleyan tradition. Hear engaging interviews and musings from Dr. Miller each week.
Transcript
Welcome to the more to the story. Podcast. I'm so glad you all come along. And I really think that what you're going to hear on today's podcast is something that everybody everybody who's ever lived needs. And I'm looking forward to sharing it with you particularly because I get to have
Andy Miller III: somebody who is very familiar to my podcast back on about talking about his new book, Dr. Matt O'reilly, and I'll introduce him in just a second. But you probably know, if you listen to this podcast on a regular basis, that it comes to you from Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches.
Andy Miller III: And if you've read Matt's book, if you like what you hear on this, Podcast, I think you'd like to study at Wesley Biblical Seminary, even if you already have a degree, we'd love for you to come along and audit classes with us, or take part in our Wesley Institute, which is a lay initiative
Andy Miller III: that works across 9 months, where we go through every book of the Bible theological disciplines we'd love for you to check that out. In addition to our bachelor's master's and doctoral degrees, we also have a course of study program for people in the global Methodist church. We're really pleased to be serving the honored to be serving the global Methodist church at this time.
Andy Miller III: where we have more than 400 students currently, this fall semester. And we've served more than 500 global Methodist church pastors over the last year and a half. In addition to having our highest enrollment in our history with more than 800 students this fall.
Andy Miller III: It's a real privilege for us to serve the Church and develop trusted leaders who are ready to serve faithful churches. And you can find out more about us at Wbsedu. Also, I'd love for you to check out things that are coming from this podcast as a whole at my website andymillertheird.com.
Andy Miller III: That's andymiller. I i.com. And there, if you sign up for my email list. I'll send you a free tool called 5 steps to deeper teaching and preaching, and it's a guide for people in their exegetical process, like as they're figuring out what they
Andy Miller III: need to say, what God's leading them to say to their congregation, or a Sunday school class, or that type of thing to come up with creative ways to move through the exegetical process. So you can get that for free by signing up at my website. And you can see I have a few courses there. Actually, Matt's helped me with some of that. Who's on the show today. I have a course on heaven.
Andy Miller III: a course on Jude. These are small group studies that people are using. Well, I don't mean to be, too. It's not braggadocious all over the world people are using. I got I have some friends in Australia who just contacted me about my heaven course. So I'd love for you to check that out at my website. andymillerthird.com.
Andy Miller III: All right. I am so glad to welcome into the podcast my friend Matt O'reilly, who is the senior pastor
Andy Miller III: of Christchurch, Birmingham, a church, a global Methodist Church. He also serves in a part-time capacity as the director of research here at Wesley Biblical Seminary, not somebody who is new to the podcast I'm so glad to welcome you back, Matt. Good to see you.
Matt O'Reilly: Hey, Andy? Thanks for hosting this conversation today. Glad to be here.
Andy Miller III: And we have you on because you have this new book which we're going to talk about. But I think I want to set the stage for that, Matt, because, just to say the name of the book free to be holy, a Biblical theology of sanctification published by seedbed, and it should just come out this fall 2024.
Andy Miller III: But I think it's incredibly relevant. It's timing Matt, because you and I both just participated last week at least, when I'm recording this last week we were in San Jose, Costa Rica for the convening conference of the Global Methodist Church.
Andy Miller III: and one of the things that was exciting to me something I not just resonated with, like my! If I could have said Amen a thousand times out loud, I would have, and that was, we approved a mission statement that was initially drafted by David Watson, and then further delineated in the parliamentary process by our friend Paul Lawler to say that the mission statement of the global Methodist Church is to make disciples of Jesus Christ and spread Scriptural holiness
Andy Miller III: across the globe. So I think it was just a perfect setup for this book. Don't you think, Matt.
Matt O'Reilly: Ye. Yeah, I was pleased with that. And and even in since General Conference is finished up, I've I've kind of heard of people saying, Well, let's what do we do with this new mission statement? And then
Matt O'Reilly: someone else might recommend free to be holy as a resource. So I'm really pleased with that. I hope it is helpful
Matt O'Reilly: to folks across the Wesleyan tradition, but especially the global Methodist church, as we figure out what Scriptural holiness is, especially because in our previous life in United Methodism. And you, you know, you're you're coming to us from the Salvation Army. And you guys did a great job talking about holiness.
Matt O'Reilly: Yeah. Yeah. But in United Methodism, even in the best churches, holiness language wasn't a strong part of the vocabulary. Yeah. And so we've got some work to do to kind of recover and clarify and help people really understand what we mean when we talk about scriptural holiness
Matt O'Reilly: in our denominational mission statement.
Andy Miller III: Well, and I would even suggest that there there is a difference between some of the Holiness movement denominations like the Salvation Army, Westlands, free Methodist, Nazarenes, and the like. Like.
Andy Miller III: yeah, the word might be heard more in those traditions, but I think you'll find the same questions, and I think probably the Nazarenes do it more. It's embossed on their logo like holiness unto the Lord. But I find that with our students
Andy Miller III: the same questions are there. And it's interesting, Matt, because while I wasn't in the committee that worked on the mission statement at the at the convening Conference, I was in the Ministry and local Church Committee, but on that the Committee on the Mission statement where they worked on this, I think it was the committee that was working on the Constitution.
Andy Miller III: I heard from the delegates in my, from my conference that there was questions about the language of holiness, and some are saying it's not clear enough. I don't know what that means, even even people who were elected to serve there. So there's a way that. And I mentioned it actually this past Sunday teaching in the Sunday school class that I attend regularly at our global Methodist church. When I said it
Andy Miller III: people might have been surprised that the mission statement wasn't something like as catchy as eat more chicken, or, you know, like or make the car go faster, or doing the most good or whatever it is like. There, there it it!
Andy Miller III: There's a sense that we have to
Andy Miller III: live into this and figure out what this means. What do we mean by holding? And I hope that it's
Andy Miller III: aspirational in the sense that it leads us to think about this. Do you? Do you feel like that could be one of the outcomes of this.
Matt O'Reilly: I, I think it's the.
Matt O'Reilly: It's what we're. Gonna it's the task that's before us. Absolutely. So yeah, I think there's there's
Matt O'Reilly: maybe people kind of get a mission statement confused with a branding slogan. Sometimes.
Andy Miller III: Right, right.
Matt O'Reilly: That kind of that kind of language on social media the last few days like, how can we
Matt O'Reilly: like this doesn't make sense to outsiders or this, you know that sort of thing. And I think.
Matt O'Reilly: like, if I'm meeting someone who's not
Matt O'Reilly: walking with Jesus, my 1st move isn't a denominational mission statement.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure. Sure.
Matt O'Reilly: You know, but that does motivate me.
Matt O'Reilly: My, my! Does, my my ministry. The way we organize the ministry of Christchurch is about
Matt O'Reilly: making disciples with a view to
Matt O'Reilly: the spread of scriptural holiness.
Matt O'Reilly: And I think it's worth having some conversation around how the great Commission relates to the doctrine of holiness as well.
Matt O'Reilly: but so that that defines who we are and how we do our work. But when I'm meeting with someone who's new to the church or new to the Bible, or maybe is is, is.
Matt O'Reilly: isn't, has no engagement with the Church or Scripture, or Jesus
Matt O'Reilly: like. I want to help them discover holiness, but I don't start with like a lengthy formulation. I start with some questions.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Matt O'Reilly: You have some, some, some other kinds of other kinds of strategies on helping them discover what? What, what the Lord has for them in that. So
Matt O'Reilly: I think you know we can. We can do branding slogans, you know, eat more chicken and all. But but at the end of the day. This this mission statement
Matt O'Reilly: says to the Church number one
Matt O'Reilly: the General Conference wants us to recover our original Wesleyan identity.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Matt O'Reilly: Because the Scriptural holiness language is straight out of early Methodism.
Matt O'Reilly: Why did God raise up? What can we reasonably say that for the reason God raised up the people called Methodist
Matt O'Reilly: reform the nation, especially the Church, and spread scriptural holiness across the land. That's how John Wesley and his peers answered that question
Matt O'Reilly: his contemporaries, and so for general conference to come and say, This is our mission, then they are drawing an explicit line between us and the Methodist movement in the 17 hundreds, and saying, like we exist to do the same thing, they were raised up to do.
Andy Miller III: Amen!
Matt O'Reilly: And so we've got to figure out how to do that. So it's it's aspirational. It's
Matt O'Reilly: In some ways. I think it's imperatival. The imperative is there for us to embrace this mission that General Conference has given us, and say, Hey.
Matt O'Reilly: here's what Scriptural holiness means. Here's how you grow in that, and here's what it looks like for it to spread.
Andy Miller III: Yes, and I think that that's where your book comes in, because some I even
Andy Miller III: and some traditions, wouldn't have used the language scriptural holiness, and that's 1 of the contributions from your book there have been, and those of you. If you go back and start leading reading books from the holiness. Tradition.
Andy Miller III: Certainly there are. There is like exegetical work that's been done in this tradition, and I think every faithful pastor wants to do that. But I think one of the things that has happened is sometimes we do historical work where we go back. And we read John Wesley, we look at what happened in the 19th century holiness movement. We look at what? Whatever denomination you're in, the founders and kind of leading thinkers from that time, and it can become a historical work. It can become
Andy Miller III: a theological work in the sense of reflecting on doctrines and maybe abuses of doctrines. But what I love about your book is. It walks us through various points of Scripture key kind of like markers throughout Scripture, where we can pick up on the big ideas of the tradition.
Andy Miller III: And one of the things that can happen is that. And I say this from a school that's been rooted in the holiness movement is, we can think. Well, we're going to preach holiness passages.
Matt O'Reilly: Oh!
Andy Miller III: Be like, Okay, we're going to go. And you've written a book on one Thessalonians. So like, we're going to go to 1st Thessalonians 5, and may God Himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through! That's a whole! But I think what I sense from your book is that there's this grand narrative of what's happening, that when we talk about scriptural holiness, we're not just kind of pointing to a couple of verses.
Andy Miller III: But this is something bigger, maybe more connected to the the big picture of what God's doing throughout Scripture. What do you think is is that what you're trying to do? And is that the the picture of what scriptural holiness is.
Matt O'Reilly: Yeah, that's right. So I think you could say that the story of the Bible is the story of a holy God
Matt O'Reilly: creating for himself a holy people.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Yes.
Matt O'Reilly: That's what the whole thing is about. Right? So so the story begins with the garden in in the Garden of Eden, where God endows, or or entrusts or or creates human beings in His image.
Matt O'Reilly: And so there's some aspect of God's character in life in which human beings participate. It's called the image of God. It involves creative control. Stewardship oversight, dominion
Matt O'Reilly: in relation to creation, and and it's a representative vocation to be given. The image of God means you represent God in the in the place where he's put you
Matt O'Reilly: and then.
Matt O'Reilly: when when sin comes into the picture, when human beings, when Adam and Eve rebel, then the image doesn't go away, but it's damaged. And and all of a sudden, instead of representing God well and truthfully, human beings represent God falsely.
Matt O'Reilly: And so the rest of the story is about
Matt O'Reilly: restoring the image.
Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!
Matt O'Reilly: The rest of the story is about restoring the capacity of human beings to tell the truth about God with their lives.
Matt O'Reilly: And so when you get to Mount Sinai.
Matt O'Reilly: Israel is called, or the the Hebrew people are called, and they're called to be a holy nation.
Matt O'Reilly: Well, they don't live into that very well, and so they go into exile. God brings them back and says, I'm going to bring you back, and I'm going to purify you, and I'm going to cleanse you from your idolatry. Why, so? The nations will know I'm holy. But, by the way you live.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Matt O'Reilly: Right. And then all the way into the New Testament, the ministry of Jesus
Matt O'Reilly: is about reproducing the character of God in the people of God. Paul's letters are saturated with the same idea until we get to the end of the story.
Matt O'Reilly: When he appears we shall be like him.
Matt O'Reilly: and the the image of the people of God at the end of the Bible, and in revelation is one where of splendor and beauty and holiness and
Matt O'Reilly: eschatological Majesty. And so the whole story
Matt O'Reilly: is about how God.
Matt O'Reilly: oh!
Matt O'Reilly: Produces for himself as His representatives in the world of people who embody his character.
Andy Miller III: And.
Matt O'Reilly: His character is holy, and so in, I would say, in this way the whole story of the Bible is about God creating
Matt O'Reilly: a holy people for himself to fill the earth.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Amen. Yeah, I mean, this is that big picture. This isn't just about a given passage I love. How the very 1st line that Scott Jones offers in his. Forward to your book is this, he just says Christianity is all about holiness.
Andy Miller III: Christianity is all about holiness. He did not. Now he goes on to explicate and record, and you do, too, how this is a part of a tradition and kind of an emphasis within the Wesleyan tradition. And we've we've said that multiple times here, but it's making a broader statement here that Christianity
Andy Miller III: is all like this is what Biblical scriptural holiness is saying that this is the goal, the the purpose
Andy Miller III: of the Christian life. And, Matt, I'm curious like, how like this book. And this concept isn't just for
Andy Miller III: the Methodist or the people who looked at John Wesley as their father or grandfather in the faith. This is. This is about the entirety of the Biblical witness.
Matt O'Reilly: That's right. So I think the the Wesleyan tradition from the start has perceived our vocation. As there's something the church needs that maybe it's forgotten about.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Yeah.
Matt O'Reilly: There's an emphasis that that God has for us that we haven't attended to properly. And so our tradition has sort of said
Matt O'Reilly: we're called by God to remind the Church that his purpose for them is to deal with the totality of the sin in their life. Where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more. Right?
Matt O'Reilly: So so if there's an issue, grace is big enough to deal with it, heal it.
Matt O'Reilly: cleanse it, purify it, restore it all those things.
Matt O'Reilly: And so it's the sort of thing where, if the Wesleyan tradition lives into its vocation, we'll work ourselves out of a job.
Andy Miller III: Amen!
Matt O'Reilly: So, so we should become unnecessary at some point.
Andy Miller III: Right, right.
Matt O'Reilly: As the Church embraces or recovers
Matt O'Reilly: this, this beautiful vision of flourishing. That is the doctrine of holiness.
Matt O'Reilly: Yeah, then
Matt O'Reilly: we they won't need us doing the to remind them, because they will have re-embraced it. So I think
Matt O'Reilly: the the crucial piece for the Wesleyan tradition is to say, this isn't just for us. This isn't just our take on it.
Matt O'Reilly: This belongs to the whole church.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Matt O'Reilly: And this is God's purposes for his whole people, and this is really His purpose, for His whole creation.
Andy Miller III: Yes. Yeah.
Matt O'Reilly: Not just as people and and if we do our job well, then, we'll
Matt O'Reilly: today should come when we're not needed to do it anymore.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Well, okay, I'm going to open a can of worms here. With that.
Andy Miller III: I really, I think that that is the case. And you earlier quoted the way John Wesley described the purpose of Methodist in my own research and just thinking about ecclesiology in the 19th century. I'm reminded how a lot of this historically finds a source in the tension in John Wesley's ecclesiology of what the purpose of Methodism was in England, and you said you said it correctly, of course, to
Andy Miller III: to reform the nation spread scriptural holiness across the land, but I think it's 1781. Forgive me, somebody might call me on this, but there was a minute from the meeting, where he added another phrase, and it was, and not become a sect.
Matt O'Reilly: Oh!
Andy Miller III: So now, now, okay, here's what I'm thinking is like.
Andy Miller III: maybe is even in that same spirit, Matt, of what you just said, that we're working ourselves out of a job that with the hopes that we don't have to split split into various groups with these emphases. But really, I love the idea, I think, that that might have been the heart behind that clause when when John was said, this is that this isn't about tribes. This isn't about clubs or teams, or even theological institutions.
Andy Miller III: This is really about an emphasis of scriptural holiness that we believe can be spread across the land.
Matt O'Reilly: Yeah, that's helpful. I need. I'd love to see I'd love to see the sorcery wrote that because, like that kind of resistance to sectarianism.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Matt O'Reilly: Is anomalous in some ways, I mean, take a look at the history of the Church. I mean, it's sectarian all over the place.
Matt O'Reilly: and denominationalism feels that way sometimes, and we've got our way of doing it, and our way is better than your way. And
Matt O'Reilly: and and the Wesleyan tradition has drifted into that sectarianism at times like we don't
Matt O'Reilly: as a movement we don't relate to, especially in North America. I think the broader evangelical tradition. All that. Well, that's going to be an important thing for the global Methodist church. I think
Matt O'Reilly: right? The Gmc. Isn't mainline like the United Methodist Church was like we don't have that. We've come out of the main line.
Matt O'Reilly: But our our kind of identity and ethos is not mainline Christianity. It's more evangelical. But but it's more distinctive than sort of your your standard Evangelicalism, because of the emphasis on scriptural holiness.
Andy Miller III: Right, sure.
Matt O'Reilly: But but
Matt O'Reilly: the people who the sort of ethos is going to resonate more with in the broader evangelical world like we don't have as a denomination strong relationships with.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Matt O'Reilly: Get them? And so I think there's there's probably a lot of work there to do to cultivate those relationships
Matt O'Reilly: with a view to helping the Church see more clearly God's purposes for His people.
Andy Miller III: You know we were. We've been at at war, and and honestly like I feel like it's enough that it
Andy Miller III: is something that defines the Faith. Enough that we were dealing with the very basic categories of God's revelation through Scripture, and even then moving on to the implications of that with
Andy Miller III: Christology and the exclusivity of
Andy Miller III: Christ. So like the you had to have this battle, and it might have. I think you're right. It has led, and I think this is true across Wesleyan traditions is that there have. There haven't been as much communication or engagement with the wider evangelical community, and I think you might have been there, I'm not sure. At the last Wesleyan Theological Society there was a theme was on ecclesiology.
Andy Miller III: and while we were there there was actually some a lot of critiques from scholars about the, from my seat, about the emergence of the gold Methodist church, and like, well, what's this gonna mean about the way that we communicate, and this is breaking the body of Christ. And I remember
Andy Miller III: I was in one of these sessions, and I looked around the room, and I think there were 3 of us out of 60 who were Gmc. Or movies, and David Watson was there, and as we were walking out. I felt like we kind of got beat up a little bit, but he kind of looked, looked over at me, and just said, Look, our church is just falling apart. We just had to. We had to. There had to be something that would come around. I can't remember his exact words, but it's like this moment. But honestly, as we emerge from this moment.
Andy Miller III: this is one of those opportunities, like maybe maybe because we're here with a more pronounced witness with close to 5,000 churches, and a tradition that's being revived. This not just this language, but this emphasis can indeed be our charism within the body of Christ.
Matt O'Reilly: Yeah, that's that's really interesting and helpful. And I I think that's right on the
Matt O'Reilly: the justification for starting a new denomination. I think we need to really think about how ordination relates to that.
Andy Miller III: Interesting, yeah, yeah.
Matt O'Reilly: I. I wrestled with this for a long time prior to my own separation from the United Methodist Church, like who is
Matt O'Reilly: who sort of went and told me, and the 10 or 15 colleagues who are working to
Matt O'Reilly: create a a play, a gathering place, a landing place outside of the Umc in our annual conference, I mean.
Matt O'Reilly: you know, and and take churches with us. Right? So so. And I think
Matt O'Reilly: our ordination is the place where we were set apart to order the life of the Church.
Andy Miller III: Yes, yes, yes.
Matt O'Reilly: And if Jesus, who reigns at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, has entrusted the care of His people to us in local churches.
Matt O'Reilly: we can't abandon them to a dysfunctional ecclesial system.
Andy Miller III: It may.
Matt O'Reilly: Bishops who
Matt O'Reilly: are deceptive and dysfunctional, and those kinds of things. And and the reality is.
Matt O'Reilly: if they're leaving one way or another, and if we just let them scatter and they're not shepherded. Then, as as the shepherds of the church, we're not doing our job.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Matt O'Reilly: If I just sort of say, well, I'm committed to the institution, and what you do, what you want to do then I'm not really shepherding the people Jesus has entrusted to me. And so
Matt O'Reilly: for me, in the years leading up to disaffiliation and the formation of the global Methodist church. There was a deep conviction
Matt O'Reilly: that it's my job, my responsibility as their pastor, to do everything I can to shepherd them into safe pastures
Matt O'Reilly: as a group together, and my ordination.
Matt O'Reilly: I won't say authorizes me, but it creates the responsibility.
Andy Miller III: Amen, Matt, I'm almost getting chills, as you're saying, that like I know I am getting, because because you and many others and all all of it, like we have to put our lives down for that task and like our reputations to some degrees like, Yeah, it's really nice when we're around the 500 people at the convening General Conference right where everybody's on the same page. But yet that has led to I mean, real pain for people. And
Andy Miller III: I I mean, I go as far as saying, I'm willing to rethink this, that
Andy Miller III: if if they're, I think, moving away
Andy Miller III: from the historical Biblical teaching of the complementary nature of the human body
Andy Miller III: and God's revelation through Scripture, that when you move away from that, that it's really in moving toward, in heresy.
Andy Miller III: And and and that's hard. Because, like, ultimately, I'm saying, like this, teaching could lead people to eternal destruction, like I'm I'm saying that it's somewhere between doctrine and dogma. But it's only in those cases, historically, where, when? It's a matter of doctrine or dogma, that schism
Andy Miller III: is per is really permitted.
Matt O'Reilly: Justified. Yeah.
Matt O'Reilly: no, I think that's right. And I I think I think the key piece is
Matt O'Reilly: so so well, one of the ways to look at it is
Matt O'Reilly: you only
Matt O'Reilly: you only figure out what the heresies are when they're content, when when orthodoxy is contested.
Andy Miller III: Right? Interesting, yeah.
Matt O'Reilly: So.
Andy Miller III: Point.
Matt O'Reilly: In the 4th century. You didn't. We didn't figure out what the Christological heresies were until
Matt O'Reilly: somebody started to do it until the false teachings came along.
Andy Miller III: Point, yeah, yeah.
Matt O'Reilly: And it goes on that way. And so I think we are
Matt O'Reilly: in a period of like in 20,000 years, when they write the history of the
Matt O'Reilly: you know the early church in the in the 21st century kind of thing, you know, down the road. When the historians look back. It's possible they could say, well, they were sorting out the Christological stuff
Matt O'Reilly: in that period, sorting out some other things in this period, and in the 20 and 21st century, the church had to sort out what it thinks about these other matters in relation. Yeah, yeah.
Matt O'Reilly: anthropology and sexuality. And all these kinds of things, so
Matt O'Reilly: I think we won't know that for a long time. But but this is the 1st time you know. The
Matt O'Reilly: the 20th century was the 1st time in the history of the Church that historic Christian sexual
Matt O'Reilly: teaching
Matt O'Reilly: was contested.
Andy Miller III: Hmm,
Matt O'Reilly: So you wouldn't expect it to come up before now.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, that's a great point.
Matt O'Reilly: And you wouldn't expect the question of schism in relation that to to come up before now because it has hasn't. It hasn't. There hasn't been a matter of disagreement. And the reality is, Andy, just to put this in perspective.
Matt O'Reilly: it's not really a matter of disagreement now.
Matt O'Reilly: Well, like 90.
Matt O'Reilly: I'm gonna guesstimate.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Matt O'Reilly: 9% of global Christianity is agreed on. Human sexuality like this is a North American and Western Europe problem.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Matt O'Reilly: And it's not.
Matt O'Reilly: you know, when you take into account the whole church in the global South.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Matt O'Reilly: They're not, they're. It's not a question of debate.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Matt O'Reilly: And so it's not even as as big of a conflict as it might feel. Having just come out of the Umc. And forming the Gmc.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, this is so good. And and you those of you who are like saying, When are you gonna get back to the book, Andy. I'm sorry, I said. I open up a can of worms, but it is connected like it is connected. This idea of what does it mean to exist as a people whose goal
Andy Miller III: and we what we take from Scripture, that the goal of Scripture, God's revelation
Andy Miller III: through the Bible, is to communicate, that we are to become a certain type of people, a holy people. And I like. And by the way, I will get back to you, maybe I'll put in the show notes to the actual quote. It's in my dissertation. I don't want to go like searching, for. I could give me 30 seconds. I could pull it out, but.
Matt O'Reilly: Later, but the.
Andy Miller III: Disconnect here. Here's my connection. Some people. I think it's a stretch. But one of the key contributions of your book is thinking about mission
Andy Miller III: and looking at holiness in the connections between worship, holiness, and mission. And I think, as we kind of think of the global context of what we're called to do. That's 1 of the important pieces that we see is that holiness isn't just about personal piety, but it's also about the way that we serve in the world, so help maybe I'll get us back on track here thinking of the book. But why was that important to you? And how did you pull that into this biblical theology of sanctification.
Matt O'Reilly: Yeah, this is really something that that
Matt O'Reilly: became apparent to me several years ago and and sorted it out some in classes. I was teaching at Wbs at the time, in the worship course, actually on the relationship between worship, holiness, and mission like, what does it mean to think about worship? From a from from a Wesleyan perspective. And then how does that relate to the broader work of the Church and the idea? So take Ezekiel 36. For example, God's
Matt O'Reilly: complaint against the Hebrew people is
Matt O'Reilly: in part
Matt O'Reilly: a failure to worship him as He has required them to worship. So they've committed idolatry. They've done a lot of other things, too. One of the things is idolatry.
Matt O'Reilly: and there's a principle that runs all the way through the Old Testament that we become like what we worship. Gk, Beale has a whole book on this. He's not the only one there's. There's tons of work on this kinds of stuff right? So so in Isaiah, if you worship idols that have eyes but can't see and ears but can't hear. Well, you're going to become spiritually blind and spiritually deaf. Right? That's a theme that's there. And so so your worship
Matt O'Reilly: is either formative or deformative. Right.
Andy Miller III: Yes. Okay.
Matt O'Reilly: So if you worship the one true God, then you are formed in His likeness, and if you worship idols, you're formed in their likeness.
Matt O'Reilly: And so one of God's complaints against the Hebrew people is that they've worshipped idols, and that means they're not being formed in his likeness. They're being deformed in the likeness of idols, and the and the consequence of that is that the nations don't know who he is.
Matt O'Reilly: And so in Ezekiel. 36. It's you've gone out there, and you've tarnished my reputation. You've tarnished my name.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Matt O'Reilly: In front of the nations to which you came, and God's solution to that is not well, I'm just gonna like, put you aside. Go to plan B and tell the nations who I am myself because you did a bad job.
Matt O'Reilly: His solution is, I'm going to bring you back. I'm going to clean you up, and I'm going to sanctify you entirely, so that the nations will know that I am the Lord when they see my holiness in you before their eyes.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Yes.
Matt O'Reilly: So God's desire is for all of the nations to know him, and the instrument for the nations coming to know him isn't just the conversion of his people.
Matt O'Reilly: but the holiness of his people.
Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!
Matt O'Reilly: And so it's crucial for the Church to be missionally effective for our lives. To tell the truth about God's character and the Word, for that is holiness.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Yeah, I love that chapter on Ezekiel Matt. There's like a really helpful language that you use, and I hadn't thought of it this way, and even. And by the way, folks, he has really good questions that come at the end of each chapter.
Andy Miller III: please use this study. If you're I'm just gonna say, so if you're a
Andy Miller III: global Methodist church, and you just have a mission statement that has this language, just get this book. This will be a great. This would really be helpful to you. But you you describe what the actions of of God toward the Hebrew people
Andy Miller III: in exile, as drastic, and as something that is meant to get their attention. And then you kind of turn that back on us and say, Well, how's God getting your attention.
Matt O'Reilly: Has God ever had to do something drastic to get your attention, I think, is the question.
Matt O'Reilly: yeah, yeah, I think that's right. And and I. And I think that's the thing is like when when our when we experience crises in our lives. Sometimes our question is, why'd you let this happen? God.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Matt O'Reilly: Like it's not fair. Why'd you let this happen to me when maybe our question should be all right? God.
Matt O'Reilly: it given your wisdom. What are your purposes for this season of difficulty in my life? Now, how do you want to reproduce your character in me in a way that that makes you known to the, to my neighbors and the nations.
Matt O'Reilly: And so so that, I think
Matt O'Reilly: requires kind of a good doctrine of Providence
Matt O'Reilly: that that God is at work, even in less than desirable, desirable circumstances.
Matt O'Reilly: And that
Matt O'Reilly: when crises come it's not just a matter of well, he's forgotten about me, or he's being mean to me, or
Matt O'Reilly: or why? Why am I suffering this injustice?
Matt O'Reilly: The question is, how how does God want to reproduce his character in my body in this time for His glory, my good, and for the life of the world.
Andy Miller III: Yeah. And another thing that you have there. I love how you say that like how this affects Bishop holiness is that it becomes embodied.
Matt O'Reilly: Okay.
Andy Miller III: The the. The language of embodiment is the way that holiness isn't just something a concept
Andy Miller III: that is for ourselves. But the actual embodiment represents mission.
Matt O'Reilly: I think that's right. Yeah, I really leaned in heavily to the language of embodiment in this book, and the reason for that is, I think sometimes we can think
Matt O'Reilly: all right. My spiritual formation is an interior thing.
Andy Miller III: I know.
Matt O'Reilly: Being renewed on the inside. And and so
Matt O'Reilly: maybe I sin sometimes, and I struggle with that, and you know and and and that's my bodily life. But I'm really trying on the inside. I'm trying this interior spirituality, and I'm praying about it. Yeah, I may be sinning, but I'm praying about it that.
Andy Miller III: That's right.
Matt O'Reilly: Kind of thing right? And and I. And so I think the
Matt O'Reilly: leaning into the language of embodiment right? So what does holiness mean? Holiness means
Matt O'Reilly: embodying the character of God.
Matt O'Reilly: He does what he ought to do, and for His people to be holy. It means they do. We do what we ought to do with the right thing.
Matt O'Reilly: and so so
Matt O'Reilly: until that is expressed
Matt O'Reilly: bodily, holistically.
Matt O'Reilly: then we're not to a point where we can talk about holiness yet.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Matt O'Reilly: That holiness is not a matter of interior private spirituality. It's a matter of my bodily life, and the way I relate to God and neighbor.
Matt O'Reilly: Oh.
Matt O'Reilly: and and until and and that
Matt O'Reilly: that embodied embodiment idea.
Matt O'Reilly: I think, requires us to think through the ongoing implications of this, like.
Matt O'Reilly: what does holiness look like in the real world, with real people who have real issues and need God to show up and do mighty things in their lives
Matt O'Reilly: and in our relationships.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, you know, Matt, one of the things can happen is sometimes this can become like one
Andy Miller III: side is, say for it to become about internal piety, but I think sometimes in this tradition holiness can be. And this is something I picked up. Just. We're right in the middle of having our lectures with Tom Noble. Every year we have lectures on holiness, and he in, and he emphasizes that holiness is too often become a hobby horse
Andy Miller III: intellectually, for people right? They they get the right language. So it's like, it's not intellectual ascent, though there is some of that. And it's not just personal piety, though there is some of that, it is embodiment that where this this becomes something in the real world, so it's not just those 2 things, and that has that can be a tendency within our tradition.
Matt O'Reilly: Yeah, I think that's right. Let's let's connect this dot. Also, going back to the Global Methodist Church Mission statement, which is the the Gmc. Exists to make disciples of Jesus Christ, and spread scriptural holiness across the globe.
Matt O'Reilly: And so it almost this. This is one of the things I'm not. I'd be curious to know
Matt O'Reilly: well, for the
Matt O'Reilly: here's here's the claim.
Matt O'Reilly: Those 2 things, the making of disciples and the spreading of scriptural holiness
Matt O'Reilly: are one and the same.
Matt O'Reilly: Yes.
Andy Miller III: And hey, man, I know. Yeah.
Matt O'Reilly: Yes, yeah.
Matt O'Reilly: I appreciate it.
Andy Miller III: The emphasis. But you you could have been left could have been left there. But yeah, keep going.
Matt O'Reilly: Well, this and this is the thing that I think the Gmc. As a whole, I get that the framers of that. We're probably thinking in this way?
Matt O'Reilly: But I think the folks who are saying, Hey, holiness language, this is new. What are we doing with this?
Matt O'Reilly: This is one of the things to think about right. So so the make disciples. Language comes from the great commission, Matthew 28.
Matt O'Reilly: Go. Jesus says, disciple, the nations baptize them and teach them to obey everything I've commanded you right? So take a moment and think about that.
Matt O'Reilly: The great commission is not go and convert the nations. It's not. Go and preach the gospel, and don't worry about the results.
Andy Miller III: It's.
Matt O'Reilly: Go, teach the nations to obey everything Jesus commanded. So the the goal, the outcome of the great Commission
Matt O'Reilly: is global obedience to Jesus.
Andy Miller III: Wow, yeah.
Matt O'Reilly: Right. So so take a moment and and think.
Matt O'Reilly: What would the world be like if the nations
Matt O'Reilly: right? Ethno-linguistic groups all over the world rendered obedience to Jesus. Would you like to live in a world where.
Andy Miller III: Yes, we're.
Matt O'Reilly: The Ethne honor and love Jesus, I would
Matt O'Reilly: and would that be a world where the people where where holiness is the word that describes that right. So if people are obeying God, obeying Christ and honoring him with their lives.
Matt O'Reilly: the word for honoring Him with your life is holiness.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Matt O'Reilly: Right, and so the the goal of the great Commission itself is not just
Matt O'Reilly: preaching the gospel.
Matt O'Reilly: and whatever happens, happens, the goal of the great Commission is global holiness.
Andy Miller III: Yes, wow!
Matt O'Reilly: That's what it's about. The great Commission is about the spread of Scriptural holiness across the world.
Matt O'Reilly: And so I think we need to be explicit about that. We need to think through it, and that also.
Matt O'Reilly: I think, captures and and Re
Matt O'Reilly: pulls forward the kind of language you hear in the prophets that says, You know, the day will come when the world will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
Matt O'Reilly: so the prophets anticipate a day when
Matt O'Reilly: creation is saturated.
Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!
Matt O'Reilly: With the knowledge and glory, and goodness and beauty
Matt O'Reilly: of the perfect love of God.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Matt O'Reilly: And that's not a mystical, just sort of thing that happens. It happens through the agent, the agency of the people of God. The earth will be full of the glory, the knowledge of the glory of the Lord when it's full of people who honor Jesus with their lives.
Matt O'Reilly: Yeah.
Andy Miller III: And and that doesn't mean that this is some sort of
Andy Miller III: human initiation that I I love. On.
Andy Miller III: Here we go on page 42. In your chapter in Isaiah
Andy Miller III: there's a great you have. We have a lot of good sentences. But I pulled this one out here, Matt, that holiness is what happens when God graciously cleanses the heart
Andy Miller III: and sets it apart for Him. It's when God graciously cleanses the heart and sets it apart from him. Then then that happens like we become his people in the world. You want to unpack that a little bit. I know we could have done done more. There.
Matt O'Reilly: Yeah. So I think I think that sentence especially is aimed at understanding holiness is a work of grace. A lot of times, I think when we talk holiness, we think like man, I got to work harder. I gotta strive more. I gotta climb the ladder. I gotta.
Matt O'Reilly: I got all this work. I gotta do. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Yes, yes.
Matt O'Reilly: And I think you know, I think Wesley's comment would have been, actually, you need to wait in the means of grace.
Andy Miller III: Hmm.
Matt O'Reilly: That's right, Scripture way of saying.
Andy Miller III: Innovation. It's.
Matt O'Reilly: Yeah, so.
Andy Miller III: In that way? Yeah.
Matt O'Reilly: So it's not this like, I gotta try harder to be holy like this legalistic self. Pull myself up on my own bootstraps. Thing it's
Matt O'Reilly: like, because holiness, because sanctification is part of the way of salvation, and the whole way of salvation is
Matt O'Reilly: is by grace through faith.
Matt O'Reilly: Then the question is. This is about what God wants to do. And so it's my job to
Matt O'Reilly: trust him to do the work in me that only he can do
Matt O'Reilly: to graciously cleanse my heart to graciously set me free. I can't, if I resist that.
Matt O'Reilly: he's it's not gonna happen. Faith in this way is is more like trust.
Matt O'Reilly: It's not kind of. It's not an intellectual scent.
Matt O'Reilly: it's it's more. I have trust or confidence in God through His spirit, to do in me what? Only he can do.
Matt O'Reilly: Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Amen!
Matt O'Reilly: And he does it when he's ready.
Matt O'Reilly: and he does it in his timing. And so it's not something we're in control of, exactly, because it's a gracious work of God in Christ, in the Spirit.
Matt O'Reilly: But I think the key piece there is when he does that in me.
Matt O'Reilly: then it puts me in a position to help other people grow into that, and then other people grow into that, and then other people experience his grace in that way.
Matt O'Reilly: And so that's the the multiplication of the great commission is, if my life, if I'm honoring Jesus with my life, and I'm teaching others to do that. Then over time
Matt O'Reilly: the movement multiplies, and and the and the end of it is not
Matt O'Reilly: well a bit here and a bit there
Matt O'Reilly: cover to cover throughout the Bible. The goal is
Matt O'Reilly: every nation, every tribe, and every tongue
Matt O'Reilly: rushing to experience the perfect love of the Triune God.
Andy Miller III: Yeah. And I love how that ends up being this.
Andy Miller III: this piece that we are, we are seeking it. But we're it's always kind of coming to us. It's progressing. And I think there's sometimes where that emphasis has been such in some traditions where it say, this has happened to me, I'm done.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, and I've I'm sanctified past tense. It's just like a regular running, like running per, being perfecting of who God has called us to be.
Matt O'Reilly: Yeah, I think there's a section in the book where I argue that holiness is really the starting point, not the finish line.
Andy Miller III: Hmm, yes. Yeah.
Matt O'Reilly: And and and the idea there is
Matt O'Reilly: for God to do what He wants to do in us. He needs to get us to this place of sanctification.
Andy Miller III: Ha-ha!
Matt O'Reilly: Right that that this is about. It's not about.
Matt O'Reilly: you know, I'm a center, and I need to get holy. And that's the goal. It's
Matt O'Reilly: I'm a sinner, and I need God to make me holy, so that I can be the kind of person in the world he wants me to be in an ongoing fashion.
Andy Miller III: Amen, and that's connected, I think, in part to your title. I love that this is a freedom, this even somebody from outside of our tradition.
Andy Miller III: Which I think is important. That is, emphasized John Eldridge. His book. He had a book probably 1015 years ago, called The Utter Relief of holiness right? And it's moving toward a freedom in in your chapter. Well, the section which I thought you did a great job in this section. Talking about sin. You mentioned that this isn't a freedom like getting free from our sinful nature, but it is more about
Andy Miller III: the freeing of our sinful nature from the power of sins like, there's this, this opening, this starting point, like you said of becoming more of what God's call, of who God's call should be.
Matt O'Reilly: Yeah, that's right. I even sort of caution us against the language, sinful nature at all, just because it can sort of like if I have a sinful nature
Matt O'Reilly: that it sort of may suggest. I need to be saved from my like. If I have a sinful human nature, it may suggest. I need to be saved from my humanity.
Matt O'Reilly: And when when a more, I think precise way would be to say, I have a human nature.
Matt O'Reilly: and sin has corrupted that.
Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!
Matt O'Reilly: Actually, I'll I'll plug tom Mccall is a friend of both of ours. His book against God in nature was so helpful on this.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Matt O'Reilly: That we think of sin as nature.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Matt O'Reilly: Tom argues
Matt O'Reilly: strongly, we need to think of sin as against nature.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Matt O'Reilly: So sin corrupts human nature, sin against human nature. Sin is antagonistic to human nature. Sin enslaves human nature.
Matt O'Reilly: its sin is a dehumanizing force. Sin seeks to destroy human nature.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Matt O'Reilly: We need to be saved from sin, not from our human nature.
Matt O'Reilly: Right? The problem is, we entangle ourselves with. We entangle our nature with sin, and we need Jesus to untangle it and destroy that thing so that our human, so that our humanity can be free. And the crucial piece to that is, there's 1 human being in the entire history of the world who is not corrupted by sin, and his name is Jesus.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Matt O'Reilly: Right, and he is, and he is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, his human body. To this day Jesus has a human body, and his human body has never experienced sin.
Matt O'Reilly: and he saves us by joining us to himself.
Matt O'Reilly: Right? And so, yeah, I think we we need to be
Matt O'Reilly: real. It may seem like splitting hairs, simple human nature, or human nature corrupted by sin. I really think it's a crucial distinction.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Matt O'Reilly: It would encourage us to to think more about
Matt O'Reilly: you know Paul's understanding of the flesh is about is about
Matt O'Reilly: something that runs contrary to the way God designed things to be. So it's not.
Andy Miller III: I like that. You use corruption language, and and I also like that one of the few books you quote, and you cite in the in your. This book is Tom's book on Sin against a sin against God in nature, and I'm not just advocating a corruption only model as he talks about, but be yet that language is so helpful to me, and I think you and I, and I think
Andy Miller III: Tom and people at Wbs who the way that we end up talking about sin. To me I owe a lot of my thinking in this, and he would probably point to somebody else to Dr. Dennis Kinlaw.
Andy Miller III: who was the 1st to help me realize that sin, evil in itself, is a privation of the good.
Matt O'Reilly: Yeah.
Andy Miller III: That, of course that's from Augustine, but at the same time it is. It is not an entity
Andy Miller III: in itself, it only corrupts and corrodes what.
Andy Miller III: as Dr. Kinlaw says, it's goodness in all the wrong places evil is just good, goodness misdirected.
Matt O'Reilly: Yeah.
Andy Miller III: I think it's important as we're thinking about what it means. Like, we're freed from that corruption into something good.
Matt O'Reilly: Yeah. So so that's right. Evil is not substantial. It's not a created thing, it's not a substance, it's not an entity, it's not a. It's nothing like that. It's the corruption of good things. It's the perversion of the good world that God has made. There's also some New Testament scholarship that I think is really helpful. That wants to say, you know, when we look at sin language in the Bible, sometimes it's a power that
Matt O'Reilly: makes us captive. And sometimes it's actions with which we're complicit. So we need to talk both right. It's not just something to which we're captive. We're also complicit, right? We're guilty. So we're slaves, and we're guilty. And all of that's kind of wrapped together and holiness addresses both. We're we're we're forgiven right. We're forgiven
Matt O'Reilly: of our of our complicitness, and set free from the captivity that makes a that requires us to continue complicit.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Andy Miller III: I look at the when that that idea about our complicity comes into play for me again. Just going back to Dennis. Kinlaw was a sermon he preached on on Psalm 16,
Andy Miller III: where the language and people will hear this whenever you're around me. It just comes up in prayers. Apart from you, I have no good thing.
Andy Miller III: We move like away from our participation by our own
Andy Miller III: our own decision, but at the same time we have the opportunity to recognize that God has only good things for us like. That's his intention, for our life is to experience this type of freedom into, to be the people he's called to be, as you've said, like in throughout the book, this restoration
Andy Miller III: of the image, the image that he's created us to exist in. I'm curious, too. One more thing I know we're kind of running out of time, but I want to make sure to get this in, Matt. You have a great chapter on Matthew 5, and dealing with the language of perfection which is challenging to a lot of people. And maybe, as they're living into this new mission statement.
Andy Miller III: or even thinking about the Biblical doctrine of sanctification. Maybe maybe that's a little concern for them. Help us. Just give us a little thumbnail sketch of how you help us think about that language of perfection.
Matt O'Reilly: Yeah, happy to do that. So so, Matthew, 5, 48, Jesus says, be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Matt O'Reilly: And I I think that that's 1 of those places where sometimes we struggle to take Jesus seriously, like we would never admit that out loud right? But we read that, and we go.
Matt O'Reilly: I don't know what that's about. I'm not perfect. I'm just gonna keep reading and find something that's a little bit easier to handle.
Matt O'Reilly: But this is one of those place where where context is everything right. Number one rule of Bible interpretation.
Matt O'Reilly: context is everything.
Matt O'Reilly: and and that whole paragraph, Matthew 5, 43, through 48. There is some. There's some parallel structures that help us understand what what that means there. So Jesus
Matt O'Reilly: tells them you've heard it said, Love your love, love your neighbor, and hate your enemy, and that's interestingly, that's the only one of the quotes in that series that isn't in the Old Testament.
Matt O'Reilly: All the other stuff he quotes and and intensifies his Old Testament laws that he's intensifying or
Matt O'Reilly: or focusing in on more deeply this one. We're not sure.
Matt O'Reilly: you know, somebody must have been saying it, but he's not quoting the Old Testament here.
Matt O'Reilly: And he says, but I say to you
Matt O'Reilly: And then he he begins to offer
Matt O'Reilly: these these
Matt O'Reilly: instructions that you've got
Matt O'Reilly: centers who
Matt O'Reilly: love their friends and hate their enemies. You're not doing any more than them Pharisees, that sort of thing.
Matt O'Reilly: and then he contrasts that posture which loves your friends and hates your enemies with the posture of God, who allows rain and sun to come on the righteous and the unrighteous right. So God is the sort of God who offers kindness to to the unrighteous. He offers kindness to his enemies. He offers care and and and sustenance to people who are resistant to him.
Matt O'Reilly: And then you've got in 5 48.
Matt O'Reilly: Be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect. Well, what aspect of God's character has been described in this passage? It's love for enemy.
Andy Miller III: Hmm.
Matt O'Reilly: So Jesus specifically is saying.
Matt O'Reilly: To be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect, is to love your enemy, to love those who would seek to do you wrong.
Matt O'Reilly: and he's arguing by, and you might well, somebody might think, well, that's fine. I don't have any real enemies. I get along with people pretty well, but he's arguing from the extreme
Matt O'Reilly: if you if you can. This is why we want to talk about perfect love. If you can love your enemy. That's perfect love, that's as much that's that's overflowing abundant love.
Matt O'Reilly: And so, if if you can do that, surely you can love
Matt O'Reilly: the other people in your life. Right? Surely you can love your family with this abundant love? Surely you can. You can embody the love that God has for those who dislike him in beautiful ways with the people around you. So I would argue that when Jesus says, Be perfect, as the Father in heaven is perfect. He's arguing for specifically enemy love.
Matt O'Reilly: But we can reason from that that if you can love your enemies, you can, you know, love the people in your office who get on your nerves sometimes.
Andy Miller III: Sure.
Matt O'Reilly: Those kinds of things.
Andy Miller III: And you also add that this way of looking at perfect love can be an antidote. I don't know if you use that language to legalism.
Matt O'Reilly: Yeah, that's right.
Matt O'Reilly: Yeah, I think I think this is a key thing.
Matt O'Reilly: A lot of times people hear the word holiness. And they think
Matt O'Reilly: like list of rules legalistic, you know. Sometimes we might. We might say
Matt O'Reilly: legalism is when I set the rules to my advantage.
Matt O'Reilly: so that I know I'm holy, and you're not right.
Matt O'Reilly: And and and we've had bad experiences that we don't. We don't like that. But that's not the way the Bible talks about holiness. The Bible talks about
Matt O'Reilly: holiness in terms of of
Matt O'Reilly: a freedom to do what we ought to do, and embody the perfect love of God in our relationships. Right? So we relate rightly to God, and we relate rightly to one another. So instead of this being about
Matt O'Reilly: a list of regulations, it's about
Matt O'Reilly: in this moment in my life is God's love overflowing in me, so that I'm honoring him and relating to you. Yes, rightly so.
Andy Miller III: Beautiful like again. It's like putting the emphasis in the right place. So I've I've loved that. This is a great book, Matt. I appreciate the sacrifice that you've made, and maybe your family, too, for that matter, for you to take time to put this book together in addition to your pastoral duties in addition to your work at Wesley Biblical Seminary.
Andy Miller III: I'm so glad and thankful for the way that you take on various tasks other places. So you, you know I maybe have asked you this question before, and I might get the same answer. But I often say in in kind of like the holiness perspective, like the title of my podcast more to the story.
Andy Miller III: is meaning to emphasize this depositum that we have in the Wesleyan tradition that there's more than just getting our sins forgiven. But I also like to ask people what was there more to the story of Matt O'reilly? We know about you. You're very active, and speaking into life of the Church, and about your church and this book. But is there something that you do that we don't talk about very often. That's kind of fun. That's.
Matt O'Reilly: Yeah.
Matt O'Reilly: with my family. We really enjoy at the outdoors. And maybe this relates to the book, even, you know, cultivating those. The the love in our home and and
Matt O'Reilly: cultivation of our kids and our our relationships. But
Matt O'Reilly: so we love national parks and getting out on top of a mountain and.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Matt O'Reilly: That God has made, and helping our kids see that
Matt O'Reilly: this is an expression of the creativity and wonder and beauty of of our God and His work in the world. And
Matt O'Reilly: so, yeah, if there's a.
Andy Miller III: Been lately. What's been one of the latest.
Matt O'Reilly: This summer we visited the Pacific Northwest, so.
Andy Miller III: Hey!
Matt O'Reilly: Some several of the national parks there, and it was absolutely stunning. That's a part of the country I had not been to yet, and was eager to to visit and so it was. It was a lot of fun to see
Matt O'Reilly: just the beauty, the trees, the mountains.
Matt O'Reilly: the ocean, absolutely spectacular.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, I love that now. We haven't been to the Northwest yet, but we've been on a National Park kick and just kind of made that our thing to do
Andy Miller III: the last few years. I'm with you. It's also very affordable.
Matt O'Reilly: So yeah, there are ways to do it. We cashed in some sky miles and flew out there. So so the the flights were inexpensive and or free.
Matt O'Reilly: And it's it's the sort of thing where I tell people I'd rather be in a national park than a theme park any day.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Yes, yeah.
Matt O'Reilly: Put me outside, and not standing in a line, and.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, that's true.
Matt O'Reilly: Or a ride or something is good, is good with me. So yeah.
Andy Miller III: That's great. Well, Matt, tell us, I'm sorry to say, at the start of the podcast. But you have a resources available online, tell us about some of those things real quick. So people can. If this is their 1st time hearing from you, they can check that stuff out.
Matt O'Reilly: Yeah, my website is theologyproject dot online. I think Matt O'reilly dot net will get you there as well or just Google. You know, Matt O'reilly, Methodist, or something like that. And it'll probably pop up. But yeah, there's articles and videos. And I've got a Youtube channel called Theology Project. So there's all that is kind of linked there at the the main website. Theology project dot online.
Andy Miller III: Great. Well, thanks again for this book, Matt. I appreciate it. It'll be a blessing to church, certainly. Here, Wbs, but my life something I definitely will refer.
Andy Miller III: going forward.
Matt O'Reilly: Thanks, Andy really appreciate that.