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Talking all things horticulture, ecology, and design.
00:00:05:01 - 00:00:27:12
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Good Growing podcast. I am Chris Enroth, horticulture educator with the University of Illinois Extension, coming at you from Macomb, Illinois. And we have got a great show for you today. We're going to be talking with Erin Garrett about native grasses. I love me some native grasses ever since I moved out to Kansas, where I realized there's a lot of cool grasses out there.
00:00:27:14 - 00:00:40:01
Speaker 1
And the rest of that love story you can read in my memoirs, but you know, I'm not doing this by myself. I'm joined, as always, every single week by horticulture educator Ken Johnson in Jacksonville. Hey, Ken.
00:00:40:03 - 00:00:43:16
Speaker 2
Hello, Chris. Can I get an autographed copy of your memoirs?
00:00:43:17 - 00:00:48:01
Speaker 1
I will give you a I thought you were going to write the foreword, but yeah, I can do that.
00:00:48:01 - 00:00:48:08
Speaker 2
Yes.
00:00:48:11 - 00:00:55:13
Speaker 1
Okay, I'll you write the foreword, I'll write backward. And between the two, we'll have a book.
00:00:55:15 - 00:00:57:23
Speaker 2
That sounds good.
00:00:58:00 - 00:00:58:20
Speaker 1
Excellent.
00:00:58:22 - 00:01:00:14
Speaker 2
You slept off your cicada.
00:01:00:16 - 00:01:25:11
Speaker 1
I still pick it out. Legs in my teeth, you know. So. Yeah, that was. That was a blast last week, getting together and eating some cicadas with you. I still am having dreams of the periodical pesto pizza. That was. I was like, that was a trip.
00:01:25:13 - 00:01:33:03
Speaker 2
Yes. I just. I have my strategic Cicada Reserve self. You need some cicadas? Let me know. Now.
00:01:33:05 - 00:01:45:08
Speaker 1
That will be our our good growing booth at the Illinois State Fair. We're going to win deep fried on a stick thing of the year, I believe. So Deep fried cicadas.
00:01:45:10 - 00:01:47:21
Speaker 2
There we go. Won't last for about an hour.
00:01:47:23 - 00:02:18:15
Speaker 1
Yeah, well, then I want to show off something that I did that I thought was going to be a garden failure this time of year. So I last fall, I bought like, a flat of sedges. I think I got three different species. I got about 18, maybe 24 slugs of plants and cost me $125. And I thought, Man, if only I could just grow these plants from seed.
00:02:18:17 - 00:02:42:11
Speaker 1
And so I bought a bunch of seed and I thought, I'm going to sow a flat of these in November. I'm going to let them stratify with the cold winter weather and I'm going to get a flat of of these sedges next year, and then I can maybe use them somewhere else in my landscape. And I sat there, I sewed everything.
00:02:42:13 - 00:03:02:08
Speaker 1
I topped it all with, I think it was vermiculite, patted it down. I even put like a window screen over top of it. So like, animals couldn't get in that and they would distribute some of that water impact if it was raining real hard. I babied it. I took care of it and nothing happened for a long time.
00:03:02:12 - 00:03:23:03
Speaker 1
And then about I sat there and I was getting ready to throw the slats out. I was done. I was ready to get rid of them. And about two weeks ago I started seeing these little green grass like seedlings pop up in my flat and I'm showing off a ha. I have. I mean, there must be thousands of dollars worth of sedges here.
00:03:23:05 - 00:03:47:06
Speaker 1
I'm going to be rich. Yes, this is my I may get rich slow schemes. So this is Carrick's volcano idea, which is a fox Serge. I've also heard it called Brown Sedge. I've heard it called brown Fox edge. But volcano idea. This is the one that was recommended to me by Roy Blake. He said, try this one. It's really good performer.
00:03:47:11 - 00:04:01:14
Speaker 1
So I sold this one. Got a lot of dandelions and maple seedlings in here too, But it's been a long winter. So yeah, I'm super excited. I have so much smudges, I don't know what to do with them. All.
00:04:01:16 - 00:04:04:07
Speaker 2
Give them out with our cicadas at the state fair area.
00:04:04:07 - 00:04:16:01
Speaker 1
Go Cicada Sedges. I love it. Yes. Yeah. Well, how are things going for you? Can. I mean, I'm. I'm, you know, on cloud nine with a flatter sedges.
00:04:16:03 - 00:04:21:13
Speaker 2
So we'll all talk about this probably in a future podcast. I finally got my girl a long stuff planted.
00:04:21:15 - 00:04:23:05
Speaker 1
Ooh, that's excellent.
00:04:23:10 - 00:04:29:16
Speaker 2
Few weeks late, but yeah, home garden, not so much. Hopefully that that's this week that gets done and planted.
00:04:30:10 - 00:04:59:00
Speaker 1
Yeah. I got 90% of the grow a long garden planted. And then this morning I planted the Missoula. So I'm all set. I'm. I'm good to go. Yeah, but we'll talk about this in a future podcast. So if listeners, viewers, if you participate or are participating in the grow along with us, we are going to have an episode come out where we're going to talk about this and what are the next steps because we're going to be asking you all some questions.
00:04:59:02 - 00:05:01:04
Speaker 2
Get ready to get ready.
00:05:01:06 - 00:05:21:24
Speaker 1
Well, speaking of asking questions, I think it's time to introduce our special guests for today. I am very happy to have Aaron Garrett on the show. So, Aaron, natural Resources, energy environment educator down in Metropolis, Illinois, home of Superman. Welcome to the show, Aaron.
00:05:22:01 - 00:05:25:20
Speaker 3
Thanks, Chris. Thanks, Ken. Happy to be here.
00:05:25:22 - 00:05:36:03
Speaker 1
We are happy to have you. Now, before the show started, you said that there's like a Superman festival coming up. What what is this down in southern Illinois?
00:05:36:05 - 00:05:57:20
Speaker 3
Well, you know, home of Metropolis. So we've got we got to celebrate all things Superman. So coming out soon, there is fun for all. Lots of spandex, lots of good food. If you want to dress up and come see a whole bunch of other people dressed up as Superman and all other related characters, you can head on down and check it out.
00:05:57:22 - 00:05:59:24
Speaker 3
I hear it's a pretty good time.
00:06:00:01 - 00:06:16:01
Speaker 1
I get I start ironing my spandex right now, so get it down there. Yeah. Wow, that's. That sounds great. So fun times in southern Illinois. You get eclipses and Superman all in one year.
00:06:16:03 - 00:06:17:06
Speaker 2
And cicadas.
00:06:17:08 - 00:06:22:20
Speaker 1
And cicadas. This is a pretty noisy where you're at.
00:06:22:22 - 00:06:46:05
Speaker 3
They are a little bit further north from from where I am. They start really picking up. But yeah, we were out over Memorial weekend in the woods and it was just crazy, crazy loud, really, really fun to come. And when they just drop out of the sky, you know, and then then start making noise everywhere, that that was my experience this weekend.
00:06:46:07 - 00:06:56:09
Speaker 3
So it's fun to see them up close. And, you know, the the last time I was off, it's been a long time since I've seen them. So but as most of us have. So it's been fun.
00:06:57:19 - 00:07:08:15
Speaker 1
Yeah, it was. I was in Quincy this last weekend for the holiday, and I was grabbing them out of the air and chasing people with them. It was great. I had a good time.
00:07:08:17 - 00:07:16:13
Speaker 3
Yeah. My niece is really good at catching them, So that's her favorite thing, is she's not scared at all. She goes on up and catches in and wants to show them off to everyone.
00:07:16:13 - 00:07:18:24
Speaker 2
So yeah.
00:07:19:01 - 00:07:28:17
Speaker 1
And then you might zoom. I downloaded the Decibel app that you mentioned. I got up to 60 decibels, but what, what decibel level were you getting in Jacksonville?
00:07:28:19 - 00:07:54:01
Speaker 2
An our back yard. We were in 90, 95 at times one it's pretty steady around upper seventies eighties and then you also need a peak in the nineties so it's it's awesome. I was doing some work in the back yard and didn't realize how loud it was and my wife started talking to me and everything was whole muffled by when inside there.
00:07:54:07 - 00:08:17:05
Speaker 1
that is pretty neat. Yeah, it has been fun. We're not getting them here in McComb or McDonough County, so we're on this little island of Cicada, just nothing so big. Nothing burger as can would say. Yeah, but it's it's I've enjoyed traveling to other people's places and seeing all the females laying eggs and trees and shrubs and stuff.
00:08:17:05 - 00:08:20:03
Speaker 1
So it's it's it's quite a sight to behold.
00:08:20:03 - 00:08:38:15
Speaker 1
Well, we are here we brought aired on the show to talk about native grasses. These are becoming I think they are popular. We're seeing them being used more and more in landscaping. And so I think this is going to be a pretty hot topic. So can we better dive into this?
00:08:38:15 - 00:08:43:04
Speaker 1
Would you mind starting us off on this week's questions, please?
00:08:43:06 - 00:09:07:09
Speaker 2
I would love to. So like Christmas and math, they're like Chris mentioned, you know, native plants and grasses are becoming increasingly popular. But I think a lot of people, when they think of prairies, especially in kind of our rural residential areas, are thinking more wildflowers begin to overlook the grasses. But what are what kind of role do grasses play in our historical prairies in the state?
00:09:07:11 - 00:09:29:21
Speaker 3
That's a great place to start because as we are seeing more of these right pollinator plantings being put in, we're focusing on the flowers, right? And most of the time we forget about the grasses. But if you look at the prairie and if you look at how they're categorized, right, they're categorized as the tallgrass prairie. It's not the pollinator plants or flower prairie, right?
00:09:29:23 - 00:09:48:15
Speaker 3
We've got tallgrass prairie here in Illinois. As you move further west, you get the mixed grass. PERRY And the short grass prairie. So of course, grasses are going to be kind of that foundation plant that we have in the prairie. So they do form a huge amount of the biomass, a huge amount of the plant material that's out there.
00:09:48:17 - 00:10:10:17
Speaker 3
It's just easy to overlook that, right, because a sea of grass isn't as interesting to some. I find it beautiful, but a lot of people want those showy flowers, right. But if you think about, you know, all of the wildlife that's out in the prairies to those those bunch grasses, specifically, they form great places for nesting birds. Right?
00:10:10:17 - 00:10:33:12
Speaker 3
I've been out in the prairie and almost stepped on nests multiple times. And of course, a food source. Right. If we think about, you know, bison grazing in the prairies back in the day, but also now again in some prairies in Illinois, they're eating a lot of the grass material. So it does play a huge role. It's kind of that foundation planting that's there.
00:10:33:12 - 00:10:58:06
Speaker 3
And then all those forms of wildflowers, you know, kind of fill in all of those gaps and then add those those other elements. So definitely really important. And we're going to talk about roots a lot, too, but when it comes to the root biomass, you know, you see what's above the ground. You see these grasses that can get maybe six, eight feet tall and there is about just as much of that plant material under the ground, too.
00:10:58:08 - 00:11:12:03
Speaker 3
So kind of whatever you see above the ground is kind of mirrored below the ground, too. Not something that we usually get right. An inside look at is the root systems, but that really is a key, key part of these grasses to.
00:11:12:05 - 00:11:37:24
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think that's I've always been fascinated with the the pendulum of grass population in a prairie in herbivore moves through like a bison knocks down all the grass, wildflowers come up and then the grass is come right back over time. It's just the swing that has happened for eons in our prairie. And I just boy, if only we had more bison out there.
00:11:38:00 - 00:11:46:24
Speaker 1
Maybe. But I've seen the Yellowstone footage. Maybe that's a good thing because people aren't very wise when it comes to bison interactions.
00:11:47:01 - 00:11:48:21
Speaker 2
Maybe they would be if they were in their backyard.
00:11:48:23 - 00:11:49:10
Speaker 1
Maybe.
00:11:49:10 - 00:11:54:00
Speaker 3
Maybe I'll think about something like that. It's a lot more space.
00:11:54:02 - 00:12:07:23
Speaker 1
Yes. Yes. So I guess, is there any analog to bison these days? Is is it a mower? Is it a cow? Like what? What is there anything we can do to mimic that historic grazing pattern?
00:12:08:00 - 00:12:46:04
Speaker 3
I mean, you definitely can. There's different ways to use cattle, right, to kind of mimic the the grazing of bison. But they do graze in different ways, right? So bison are going to graze across a longer time span versus cattle. Cattle are going to be really concentrated in certain areas, whereas bison are going to roam more. So using cattle is an option, but it's a lot more of an intentional process, like if you're managing on landscape scale, right, a restored prairie, there's a lot more rotation that has to happen with the bison in order to get them to move and not turn a certain area into like a mudflat because that's what they like to
00:12:46:04 - 00:12:57:05
Speaker 3
do. So there are some ways to do it, but you know, there are going to be some key differences too. And just the way that they impact the landscape versus the bison.
00:12:57:07 - 00:13:24:22
Speaker 1
Interesting. I guess, you know, I'm very drawn to prairies, having lived in Kansas, but maybe back a little bit closer or into our backyard. How do the native grasses that that you have studied, how are those different than what we are planting in our yards is like ornamental grasses. Is are they the same or are they different? What's anything special about them?
00:13:24:24 - 00:13:45:07
Speaker 3
Yeah. So there is some there's some overlap, right? There are a few native grasses that, you know, more in the past few decades have been used in our landscaping, but a lot of the grasses that we intentionally put in our gardens are, you know, ornamental grasses. So most of them are from like Europe or Asia. Right. And they were brought over because they had some desirable trait, whether that is color.
00:13:45:07 - 00:14:13:21
Speaker 3
Right? There's a lot of really beautiful colors that we find in those ornamentals or different patterns on foliage. Right. And so those have been planted, but then they do grow a little bit different. So their root systems aren't necessarily as intense as the native grasses are. Of course, they're from a different area, so they're not necessarily as perfectly suited to our exact climate conditions that we have here.
00:14:13:23 - 00:14:27:09
Speaker 3
And then some of them, unfortunately, can get out and be invasive. So definitely something we want to pay attention to with the grasses that we're putting in in our home landscapes, because some of those ornamentals can get out and then cause other issues to.
00:14:27:09 - 00:14:32:12
Speaker 3
we also have all the long grasses too, right? So that's like a whole nother category of grasses.
00:14:32:12 - 00:14:55:23
Speaker 3
And most of those are European, right. And then have been planted here. And so those have right, for the most part, a lot shorter of a root system. And that's not necessarily just because of the type of grass, but because of how we manage it, too. Right. We're really intensely mowing these grasses. We're adding a lot of water a lot of the times.
00:14:56:00 - 00:15:21:09
Speaker 3
And so if you're watering like really consistently, those roots are going to get super deep. And so just that like the way that we've artificially engineered these landscapes to have that lush green, short growing, never flowering, never reproducing grass right. That's that's a whole nother category separate that those ornamentals and and also different from how our native grasses grow.
00:15:21:11 - 00:15:35:23
Speaker 2
So speaking of those those long grass, most of the long grass as we grow are going to be cool season, at least in central northern Illinois or maybe down southern Illinois. Get into some warm season. But do we have any cool season? Native grasses in Illinois?
00:15:36:00 - 00:15:56:04
Speaker 3
There are, yeah. So a lot of the times we separate out grasses by like cool season and warm season, right? And kind of they have different pathways of photosynthesis, but we don't need to get into that because that's complicated, but basically means that they thrive and they grow at different times of the year, right? So the cool season grasses, we definitely do have native cool seasons.
00:15:56:10 - 00:16:20:09
Speaker 3
A lot of them grow in the woods and they're not going to be suited for a long situation. But things like the dry grasses, so like a Virginia wild rye or like a bottle brush grass, you may have seen that before. There are a group of grasses called Die Kantha Alliums. There's about 34, 37 different species of them that are really hard to tell apart.
00:16:20:09 - 00:16:42:09
Speaker 3
They're also called planet grasses, but they're super fun. Those are cool seasons. And then like a tufted hair grass, that's another one that we can find that's kind of commonly planted in our landscapes. That's also cool season. And then a few others, Porcupine Grass, which is one of my favorites, not super common in Illinois, June Grass, some of those.
00:16:42:09 - 00:16:53:23
Speaker 3
So there are a couple prairie ones like the porcupine grass and the green grass you can find. They're just not the dominant grasses. The warm season ones are going to be kind of the dominant crosses that you'd find in a in a prairie in Illinois.
00:16:53:23 - 00:17:21:24
Speaker 1
I guess if if folks are maybe trying to decide whether you're going to go to the garden center here this weekend and you are going to be faced maybe with a more traditional ornamental grass from Europe or Asia, somewhere like that, or maybe there is a native grass. Is there any benefit that you could tell us to grow in a native grass versus something non-native.
00:17:22:01 - 00:17:41:21
Speaker 3
For sure, Yeah. And a lot of it comes down to the root system, comes down to the soil health. So again, something that's really easy to overlook because you don't see it up close, right? You see the beautiful grass above the ground. You're not looking at what's below the ground. It's easy to, you know, we're gardeners, we know it's important, but it's easy to say, well, it's really not that important.
00:17:41:22 - 00:18:03:20
Speaker 3
But when it comes to building a really great root system, a lot of these native grasses are going to be once they're established, they're going to be a lot better able to withstand different climate shifts. So I have planted grasses this year that's maybe water them like once in my landscape and they're doing just fine and they're putting out tons of growth.
00:18:03:20 - 00:18:26:17
Speaker 3
And so, you know, not needing fertilizer, not needing extra water once established. And they're going to be able to build and hold that soil in place, build that root system, you know, have those beneficial relationships with my crazy, which is just going to be great overall for the health of the soil. And you might not have those connections with some of those non-native grasses.
00:18:26:17 - 00:18:53:22
Speaker 3
Right. Because that just relationship might not be there because they're not, you know, from this area. And then also they're a great food source, too. So I know we have to be okay with some of our plans being eaten. Right. But grasses are eaten by caterpillars as skippers, so they can provide a food source in that way. And then also, like grasshoppers and some other insects do eat leaves of grass too.
00:18:53:24 - 00:19:12:07
Speaker 3
And then the seeds in the winter, if you leave your grasses standing in the winter, which is important for multiple reasons, but you can include those seeds as a food source for wildlife too. So lots of different things that you might not necessarily get from those non-native, more ornamental grasses that you put into your landscape.
00:19:12:07 - 00:19:21:08
Speaker 2
Maybe the the Debbie Downer E or whatever you want to call it. Are there any drawbacks to putting native grasses in our landscapes?
00:19:21:10 - 00:19:41:02
Speaker 3
I mean, there are so we're talking about roots a lot, right? So when we're planting these plants and just native plants in general, just being very intentional about where you put them, because some of them can grow really, really intense root systems and it can be really difficult to move them. No, that's not saying that other non-native plants don't do the same thing.
00:19:41:02 - 00:20:07:18
Speaker 3
Right. I'm sure we've all dug up so many a plant that you say, I can't believe the roots keep going and going and going right. But that is something to just be intentional about where you place them, because it might be difficult or challenging to move. We've planted a pollinator garden and this isn't a grass related story, but another native plant, we planted a pollinator garden and a six inch tall raised bed on top of gravel.
00:20:07:20 - 00:20:30:17
Speaker 3
And we are four years in and the native plants are growing strong and we have roots that have gone into the gravel that are just growing all the way deep. So they will find our way. So just keep that in mind right in where you're putting them. And then like other plants to some of them are as ominous and will spread and can be aggressive.
00:20:30:19 - 00:20:52:10
Speaker 3
Some will seed a lot. I'm thinking of like a river, oats, the oats and Lindow same plant, lots and lots of different names that people will say don't plant that because it spreads like crazy. But if you have it in the right area, it's awesome. So I've seen it widely used at zoos, right? When it's surrounded by concrete and it's great and it does really well.
00:20:52:12 - 00:21:13:14
Speaker 3
So just being intentional. But that's the case with any plant that you put in, right, Right, plant, right place, Understand how the plant grows, what you might have to do, divide it later or cut the seeds off in that case so it doesn't spread like crazy. That would be kind of the only drawbacks that I would say to planting the native grasses.
00:21:13:16 - 00:21:16:04
Speaker 1
You know, about those northern oats.
00:21:16:04 - 00:21:18:03
Speaker 3
Don't feel like there's a story.
00:21:18:05 - 00:21:37:05
Speaker 2
I do all too well. Hey, we planted some and it's it's become a weed now where we planted it. I dug out the big clump. Now I've got seedlings and roots coming up all over the place and it's going to be a probably a multiple year nightmare year for me. So.
00:21:37:07 - 00:21:58:15
Speaker 1
Well, I'm pretty mean to my grasses. So the home where we live now, we moved in and the person before us must have loved ornamental grasses. Now they're non-native and they're mostly like scant this and a couple different types of zebra grass, things like that. And they probably planted these pretty little cute little plugs or something in the ground.
00:21:58:20 - 00:22:22:22
Speaker 1
And then over the years they've just expanded and filled in these entire planting beds. And so I'm just very mean to my grasses. I go in with a shovel and I'm just like beating the heck out of them, digging them up, throwing them in the yard, composting them, getting trying to get rid of them. And I'm slowly transitioning over to some native species.
00:22:22:22 - 00:22:48:01
Speaker 1
And so, Erin, do you have any species that you would recommend that I maybe look into installing and trying to incorporate into my yard because I don't like these musky at this You mentioned some of them are even the seed is becoming viable on these and they're spreading into other places. And so what should I replace these with when I'm looking at native grasses?
00:22:48:03 - 00:23:07:03
Speaker 3
Yeah. So there's a lot of different options. It kind of depends on, you know, the size that you're looking at. One of my favorites to use is switchgrass, which is what I have behind me here. And that's a really good replacement for something like a mass canvas where you're looking for a kind of like a tight bunch that can grow six feet tall.
00:23:07:05 - 00:23:30:22
Speaker 3
That one works really well. Other ones that I enjoy, Prairie Drop Seed is my absolute favorite grass I planted all over the place everywhere. So that one is really, really great and has really fine leaves and forms a really tight clump that usually the clump stays about a foot and a half tall and then it will flower and put up its seed heads that are about three feet tall.
00:23:30:22 - 00:23:50:20
Speaker 3
So that's a really great one. Smells like butter popcorn if you catch it at the right time. I was at the Missouri Botanic Garden and they had a whole like planting of it right when it was ripe and it was almost sickening. Sweet. I was like, I could tell there's some weird because it smells like popcorn, so that's kind of fun.
00:23:50:22 - 00:24:17:23
Speaker 3
But other ones, little blue stems, a really great one. Just the color variation that you can get is stunning from really, really blue to like red orange in the fall with it's like little eyelash fluff seeds. It's just really, really beautiful. And then if you have like a shady area, I just put some American beet green in which can the leaves kind of arch to the side.
00:24:17:23 - 00:24:34:15
Speaker 3
We'll see if we can put a picture arch to the side. And they've got these like golden seed heads and that one does well in shade. So those are kind of some of my top picks things that you'd want to avoid, like right next to your house, like big blue stems. Sounds great, but right, it's razzamatazz. So it's going to spread just kind of like your mosque campus.
00:24:34:17 - 00:24:53:20
Speaker 3
The same look like an Indian grass so you can but those do better like out in an area that you can look around to keep it in check right. Switchgrass usually behaves a little bit better, but it will, you know, eventually, over time, you might have to dig out some offshoots and divide it from the center because it can die back in the center, too.
00:24:53:20 - 00:25:02:06
Speaker 3
A lot of these grasses, you know, over time as they age, right over a decade, will die out in the center.
00:25:02:08 - 00:25:16:23
Speaker 1
So a lot of our native well, not a lot. I guess I'll let you answer this question. Are a lot of our native grasses, are they bunch grasses or do you see a lot of stolen and rhizomes creeping outward?
00:25:17:00 - 00:25:35:09
Speaker 3
A lot of the ones that you find being planted in the home landscape tend to be bunch grasses, right? It's pretty even. But then also some of the bunch grasses do so like they're they are as ominous too. They can spread in that way. So you never know what you're going to get. You get a mix of everything right?
00:25:35:15 - 00:25:57:21
Speaker 3
Just because you put one punch in, it might like continue to spread and put put something else out. But, you know, there's so much information out there. There's so many resources. You can look up a grass for thinking about it and see. Right. Does it tend to spread? Does it tend to behave? Maybe if it prefers this type of soil and you have a little bit more clay, it might stay in put because it's not as happy.
00:25:58:01 - 00:26:05:07
Speaker 3
So there's a lot of different factors, right, that that go into that and and can can play a role.
00:26:05:09 - 00:26:23:16
Speaker 1
I've seen big bluestem just take over places and the like a pollinator garden at the local school it was when I first moved to McComb. like look at this is really nice pollinator garden. And then five years later it's just big bluestem everywhere.
00:26:23:18 - 00:26:44:07
Speaker 3
Yeah, that's definitely the case. And I kind of had a light bulb moment in the last year. I was I can't remember what book I was reading, but it was talking about how you think about the prairie, right, and how dense everything is out in the landscape. We talked about this earlier, how you have that transition from grasses and flowers and with all that disturbance that shifts.
00:26:44:09 - 00:27:02:24
Speaker 3
But there is a huge amount of competition, right? That's between all of the roots of these plants. When we take individual plugs or we put them in our garden and they're spaced, you know, 12 to 24 inches apart from one another, it doesn't have that competition. So those grasses are able to just take over an area because nothing else.
00:27:02:24 - 00:27:28:24
Speaker 3
Right. Is competing for those resources. And prairie plants do a lot better oftentimes when there is a huge amount of competition. So I've kind of changed how I do my pollinator plantings to plant a lot denser so that the plants they perform better. It sounds counterintuitive, right? But they do better. They stand up straighter. And Paula, rather than slopping over, that's another thing that you can get with the native grasses, too, if they're not planted super densely.
00:27:28:24 - 00:27:46:14
Speaker 3
I know I planted a switchgrass and it just like flopped the first year. And I was like, well, that's a disappointment. That's not what I was expecting it at all. I think it had to the soil was too rich and it didn't have enough competition. So it just kind of like laid on the ground. I'm not at that house anymore, so I don't know how it's doing this year three now.
00:27:46:14 - 00:28:03:08
Speaker 3
So maybe it's like beautiful and amazing, but it was kind of having a hard time. So just thinking about right again, thinking back to how those plants grow in the wild, to how we're using them now, we might have to just change up how we see them to be a little bit different, a little bit more dense.
00:28:03:11 - 00:28:17:00
Speaker 2
If you're planting grasses and flowers together, should you look at doing maybe the flowers first and then plant the grass? They don't. So as far as I can get established and the grasses don't come in and crowd everything out, if you plant everything at the same time.
00:28:17:02 - 00:28:38:11
Speaker 3
Yeah, that's one one approach and it's important to also think about the ratio, right? So you don't especially like in a planted pollinator garden, right? That's easier to do because you're usually putting in your plugs. But yeah, if your grass, if your flowers are really small, your plugs that you're getting, maybe you could establish those for a year and then add the grasses back in.
00:28:38:13 - 00:29:08:20
Speaker 3
I usually buy grasses when they're like a tiny little plug. That's what I start with. And then give them three years to get to their mature size. And that seems to go well. The the pollinator flowers tend to grow really fast. This is just my experience that I found. But then if you are doing like a seed mix in an area you want to make sure that your grasses are not like more than 30% of your seed mix because they can take over and dominate even with even with 30%.
00:29:08:20 - 00:29:26:14
Speaker 3
That's kind of a lot. But I've seen recommendations of like plant a meadow plant up to 70% grass. So I'm like, You don't want to do that because your flowers are going to have a really, really hard time establishing and there's a lot easier for that grass to establish after the fact, like you said, can then getting the flowers to establish after the grasses.
00:29:26:16 - 00:29:44:05
Speaker 1
You know, those early the next sirup or pollinator suggested grass to four ratio was always really heavy. And grasses, I think they've shifted now to easing up on some of those grasses. So which is good to see.
00:29:44:07 - 00:30:01:11
Speaker 3
I mean, it makes sense you want something to grow fast and you want it to cover the area right? But I'm even finding other people that have put in pollinator plantings that didn't even seed any grass. Now the grasses found its way in. It's come up from the seed bank or a bird has brought it in. And then now I have big bluestem and I didn't with that.
00:30:01:11 - 00:30:13:24
Speaker 3
So you can even go that far right, depending on your situation and really go heavy on the forms and then maybe just some shorter grasses and some of those tall ones might find their way in eventually.
00:30:13:24 - 00:30:31:00
Speaker 2
so there's been some interest, maybe some movement or momentum on buffalo grass that's of native grass we have here as a as a lawn alternative to our traditional long grasses. Is that something you think would be successful?
00:30:31:02 - 00:31:01:11
Speaker 3
That's a big question. Ten So so buffalo grass is a warm season Grass, right. We kind of talked about that earlier that for northern and central Illinois most long grasses are going to be your cool season grasses. So I wouldn't necessarily try it in those locations. And southern Illinois, it could be more viable, but I'm usually pretty hesitant about starting an entire lawn from scratch with the native grass.
00:31:01:11 - 00:31:29:08
Speaker 3
Right. Again, just thinking about how our cool season grasses work, how our European grasses work. If you give them attention and water, they do really well and they grow really fast and they fill in and they do pretty okay with weed pressure. Buffalo grass does not do well with weed pressure. There's a lot of spaces, often between the individual plants because it does put out stones and then we'll put out new little baby plants around where it's currently growing.
00:31:29:08 - 00:31:53:02
Speaker 3
But that takes a few years, right, to establish a dense lawn sourcing that seed at this point, I would assume it's pretty expensive because it's not super widespread now. So finding it and finding enough quantity is is probably going to be pretty pricey. So and it does need like quite a bit of sun, full sun, which I know most of our lawns are not totally full sun.
00:31:53:02 - 00:32:17:22
Speaker 3
Right. So I, I wouldn't necessarily recommend it at this point. If we're looking to include more natives, I would prioritize reducing the amount of lawn that you have and put it in more of like a pollinator planting. Or you can even do like an all grass garden that's in my future. That's going to be one of the plots we'll get there.
00:32:17:24 - 00:32:41:05
Speaker 3
I'm a little disappointed in myself. I have a lot of flowers right now and not a lot of grass. So I looked around and I thought, What did I do? I forgot the grasses. So maybe I'll put in a little plot that's just different grasses one day. But if you have a lot of time and a lot of resources and you're really interested in it and you're in the more southern part of the state, sure, maybe.
00:32:41:07 - 00:32:58:00
Speaker 3
But I don't know at this point I would necessarily recommend it. And Buffalo grass isn't super widespread in Illinois anyways. Like if you look at its distribution, it's only in a few counties in the state. So it's not like it's a super popular grass, right, that we see out growing everywhere and then we're going to adapt it here.
00:32:58:00 - 00:33:12:07
Speaker 3
So yeah, that's my that's my thoughts on on where we're on buffalo grass. But I'm interested if you have different opinions on, on where we're at with buffalo grass.
00:33:12:09 - 00:34:04:08
Speaker 1
I think that's a great point. You mentioned earlier that we are all grass prairie and when everything I read about Buffalo grass, it is more short grass, prairie species, more arid west, Great Plains species. I've tried to grow buffalo grass a few times in Illinois and it is as you say. So if I had a couple plots in amongst cool season lawn over time, the buffalo grass never like disappears, but the cool season lawn just out competes it and you can still find buffalo grass in there but it the it is definitely the cool season lawn outshines that and obscures a lot of what's happening with the buffalo grass so I yeah I, I agree
00:34:04:08 - 00:34:22:05
Speaker 1
with what you're saying it's just the climate's not right we have way more competition our other cool seasons so yeah that's what I'm seeing until the breeders get something that works better east of the Mississippi River, I think we're, we're stuck with our tacky blue grass. Tall fescue mixes.
00:34:22:07 - 00:34:24:12
Speaker 2
Earl some nimble. Well, if you want warm season.
00:34:25:02 - 00:34:28:23
Speaker 1
yeah. I do have nimble will so much nimble.
00:34:28:23 - 00:34:32:09
Speaker 2
Will most of my yard now It's nice.
00:34:32:10 - 00:34:39:04
Speaker 1
I I hated that grass until is is this a native nimble will is this a native Illinois grass.
00:34:39:06 - 00:35:08:06
Speaker 3
Believe so I want to say it is native pretty weedy right like but it grows pretty dense where it's happy. Right. So I mean I have in my my current lawn is not great, which is fine with me. I have no problem with it. But at my old house, we had a bunch of number. Well, we've got Bermuda grass and bead grass and foxtail and that's my lawn right now.
00:35:08:06 - 00:35:33:09
Speaker 3
Some fescue where I had to reseed some because the Bermuda grass just we had heavy equipment in our yard and it just ripped it out of the ground. There was like no root system at all. So it well there. What? My Lord, I wasn't expecting that. I guess we'll try something else. So talk about not having a root system, but it just literally was just fell out of the ground like not great at all.
00:35:33:09 - 00:35:54:19
Speaker 3
So the number well, it's okay. I mean, again, what what I come back to is what is the purpose of your lawn? What are you using your lawn for? Is it you want a pristine green carpet or appearance? And that's what's really important to you? Or are you using it to play with your kids outside? Do you want it to support wildlife?
00:35:54:21 - 00:36:20:13
Speaker 3
I think we just kind of take for granted that we have a lawn and we now need to mow it, and that's just what we do. We don't think further than that. So when it comes to like replacing your lawn with native like warm season grasses, you know, I would like I said earlier, think about just reducing the amount of lawn that you have and putting in other native plants that are more suited to our climate and where where we are instead.
00:36:20:15 - 00:36:21:20
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:36:21:22 - 00:36:45:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. Not very good points. And if you're if you try to do buffalo grass and you struggle, you might wind up having to put more inputs into that buffalo grass lawn in terms of well, you don't really want to baby, you really don't want to fertilize or irrigated, but you'll be fighting weeds, you'll be having to put down pesticides, herbicides to try to help that buffalo grass, the weeds.
00:36:45:16 - 00:37:14:23
Speaker 1
So you might be spending more effort on that than just mow high more often, keep your blades sharp and cut out what lawn you don't use. Plant more native plants. I the good strategy anyway. But so speaking of that, let's talk about going a little bit beyond a buffalo grass. Well, there's a bit more, I would say momentum or more popular for people to take and convert lawns.
00:37:15:00 - 00:37:37:07
Speaker 1
I hear a lot of the term meadow being thrown around, which I don't know what that I know what Prairie is, but I'm not quite sure what meadow lawns are. But Prairie, I hear converting lawns into prairie. So but we are in maybe we're in the suburbs, maybe were were rural but still have a small patch that we're doing this.
00:37:37:09 - 00:37:50:18
Speaker 1
Is there any difference in the types of grasses you'd suggest in these smaller scale versions of prairie and then sounds like you're starting you're starting your own grass garden. Do you have any tips to give us?
00:37:50:20 - 00:38:18:24
Speaker 3
Yeah. So there has been a movement, right, to Plant Of course we have like pollinator plantings, right? But then you have like this is kind of the next stop is like the Little Prairie planting. And that can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people, right? The more of the Meadow notion, kind of the impression that that gives me is that I'm leaving the cool season grasses that I have in my lawn to just grow up and then I'm adding some additional flowers in.
00:38:19:01 - 00:38:39:19
Speaker 3
Right. And so that's not necessarily what we want to recommend is just like that's kind of the like no mow may type of situation where we're just, I don't have to do any work and I can just let it go and return to what it is. But if you leave your cool, seasoned grasses to just grow up, a lot of them, they don't perform in the same way, I guess, as our warm season.
00:38:39:19 - 00:39:10:00
Speaker 3
So they'll flop over when they get really tall and they're just not the most esthetic to look at. They do look really weedy, right, Because a lot of them are weeds when they get out into different habitats. So with any type of meadow planting or prairie planting, you do want it to be intentional, right? You want to establish a certain plot or area where you're going to put this in and, you know, pay attention to whatever weed ordinances or regulations that you have where you live.
00:39:10:02 - 00:39:28:22
Speaker 3
But it's better to look it up and be aware of what it is. If that means that you have to edge the area of your garden to make it look more intentional or put aside in front of it. Right. Or if you put in your backyard to start, maybe that's an option until you get the hang of it and figure out what's going on.
00:39:28:24 - 00:39:55:00
Speaker 3
But what's a lot of the prairie or the meadow? Again, my understanding of how people are approaching that is that you're going to clear that area of your grass and then you're going to seed in a native seed mix, right? Since we're thinking about a bigger area. So that can take a few years to establish, right? If we're starting from seed, we'd want to put that in in the fall or in the winter so those seeds can stratify, right?
00:39:55:02 - 00:40:15:18
Speaker 3
And then they can germinate. But that also means that you have like maybe a whole growing season worth of preparation of that site beforehand. So weed pressure is the biggest battle. I can attest to this. We just put in a whole bunch of landscape beds that are New House and I have been weeding since February because the spring was so warm, constantly weeding.
00:40:15:19 - 00:40:42:23
Speaker 3
So however you decide that you want to get rid of your lawn in that area, whether it is using the herbicide, whether it's solar rising, whether you are taking out the sod, whatever you want to do, you need to try reduce that weed pressure as much as possible. So that's not just one pass either, right? Start spraying once it's it's or it's not so polarizing and laying your plastic and then letting whatever vegetation is there is cooked and remove it and you can plant.
00:40:43:00 - 00:41:03:01
Speaker 3
It's repeating that multiple times over like a whole growing season to really try to exhaust the weed, break the weed seed bank right before you get started. But then what you're putting in there, it just kind of depends on personal preference for a lot of these. If you're putting it in your front yard, right, you want to think about height of your plants.
00:41:03:01 - 00:41:23:18
Speaker 3
You don't necessarily want to put up a split that's going to be eight feet tall, Right? And your big bluestem and Indian grass, those tall season grasses, aren't ones that you want to put in there because they're going to take over that whole block. So you want to find the more well behaved grasses and other plants to put into that area.
00:41:23:18 - 00:41:51:08
Speaker 3
So you could do switchgrass. I might not put that into that planting and stay with kind of smaller grasses like your little bluestem, like your prairie drop seed. You could do some rice like a cat in a wild rye, which is a native plant. Virginia while dry. And then things like blue grandma, which is related to the buffalo grass and it does well admirable landscaped planting.
00:41:51:08 - 00:42:08:08
Speaker 3
You could do blue grandma or side oats grandma, which is another fun one. So it kind of depends if you're in your your backyard. Right. You could be a little bit more wild with with how you do this. And then you have your smaller plantings too. So you could just do a smaller garden and you put plugs of plants in.
00:42:08:10 - 00:42:24:04
Speaker 3
I'm really impatient when it comes to seeding. I've seeded a lot of native plants and I don't like waiting three years for planning to pop up out of the soil that I forgot that I planted something there. So I've moved on to plugs, which is more pricey. Right. But you get more of an intentional space a lot faster.
00:42:24:06 - 00:42:44:05
Speaker 3
So. So moving into a meadow or a prairie is again, it's a lot of work. It's not just letting something go and adding in more plants, but it is an intentional planting that you do want it to look designed in a way so it doesn't look as much like a weed patch to other neighbors or the city. Right.
00:42:44:05 - 00:43:05:00
Speaker 3
That might want to it pay you a visit. You know, southern Illinois, that's not for most of our areas where I am rural. And I know for for you, too, when you get in the rural areas is not big deal. Great. But a lot of our listeners are in in you know, more suburban or urban areas. And so that can definitely be an issue.
00:43:05:00 - 00:43:10:20
Speaker 3
So just be aware of what ordinances are there for you that started.
00:43:12:01 - 00:43:25:16
Speaker 1
And I'm curious, random question. I have a favorite time. I like to go out and observe prairie grasses. Do you have a favorite time of year when you go outside and just look at things?
00:43:27:05 - 00:43:52:18
Speaker 3
the fall for sure, definitely, because you get a lot more of the color changes with the grasses that are more reds and oranges, right? And then with your warm seasons, they're going to be a flower. So I enjoy that. Summer is just not enjoyable because the sun is beating down and there's no shade. But I do enjoy the fall.
00:43:52:20 - 00:44:01:01
Speaker 3
It's it's kind of a magical time around sunset, you know, when you get the different. Yes, that's my favorite.
00:44:01:03 - 00:44:06:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. And it's also the only time of year I can actually identify grasses because they have their seeds.
00:44:06:08 - 00:44:19:09
Speaker 3
So yeah, it does help. It does help when they're when they're, you know, mature and they have not just leaves to look at because that can be definitely tricky.
00:44:19:09 - 00:44:32:07
Speaker 1
So Erin, let's say somebody has maybe an unidentified grass or wants to know more about grasses here in Illinois. Where can they go to find out more information?
00:44:32:09 - 00:44:50:24
Speaker 3
Yeah, Chris, I feel like you and I get questions all the time of people wanting help identifying grasses. We chat a lot like two emails. Ten tend to. Yeah, lots of emails go on among all of us trying to figure out grasses. But before you email us, you can check out our resources that we have on our Web site.
00:44:50:24 - 00:45:16:22
Speaker 3
So an extension to Illinois dot edu slash grasses, we have a whole Web page, so there are ID resources there. I have a great hand out that kind of goes over the terms and what to even look out when you're trying to identify a grass. I also have a blog that I write usually every other week, but if I'm late a day or two hoping that life happens.
00:45:16:24 - 00:45:38:21
Speaker 3
So that's grasses at a Glance blog. You can find that on that web page also. And then I have a short video series too, also called Grasses at a Glance. So I think I have about 25 videos identifying individual grass species. So if you don't want to read about it, but you want someone to show you how to identify grass, I've got about 25 different species up that you can look out there.
00:45:38:21 - 00:46:02:07
Speaker 3
So lots of different resources on that website. And then just related to native planting in general, not just grasses, but I am also one of the hosts of the spotlight on Natural Resources podcast. And we typically we talk about a whole bunch of different things that are happening in your environment, but we usually tie it back to native plants every single episode.
00:46:02:09 - 00:46:06:14
Speaker 3
So you can check us out over on that podcast too.
00:46:06:16 - 00:46:25:04
Speaker 1
We will link to all of those excellent resources. I, I am a big fan of the video series too. I guess I just, I like seeing the Grasses movement and just how you explain them all. So nicely done. And if if you want to send us a picture of grass to identify, you are definitely more than welcome to.
00:46:25:04 - 00:46:38:11
Speaker 1
But watch those videos to know maybe where to take those pictures and what we need to also see to help you identify them. I think that's really helpful when we get those blurry grass leaf blades. And I'm like, I don't know what this is. Help me here.
00:46:38:11 - 00:46:49:13
Speaker 3
And I say the same thing. I don't know. It's flattering. Yeah, that's the next video I need to make. What pictures to take on the grass. So before you send it to us, I'll be helpful.
00:46:49:15 - 00:46:56:04
Speaker 2
Yeah. Don't send them to me, because I'll just send them DICKERSON and.
00:46:56:06 - 00:47:17:20
Speaker 1
Well, that was a lot of great information about native grasses and ways that we can incorporate more of them in our landscape. Well, the good grandpa, I guess, is a production of University of Illinois extension, edited this week by me, Kristin Roth. I'm going to beat kin to it this time, I promise. So. Well, Aaron Garrett, Natural Resources, Energy and Environment Educator Down in my trap.
00:47:17:20 - 00:47:27:02
Speaker 1
Metropolis. Metropolis. Metropolis. Where am I from? Chicago. Metropolis, Illinois. Thank you so much for being on the show today.
00:47:27:04 - 00:47:29:24
Speaker 3
Thanks so much for having me.
00:47:30:01 - 00:47:37:19
Speaker 1
And Ken, thanks as always. Once again, being with me every single week. Thanks for for being there.
00:47:37:21 - 00:47:57:15
Speaker 2
Thank you, Aaron. It was good. Much fun. Gets more grasses to try out now because we're we're converting our front yard into a meadow prairie, whatever you want to call us. So I got some more things that my wife will be thrilled. And Chris, thank you as always. And let's do this again next week.
00:47:58:05 - 00:48:19:10
Speaker 1
we shall do this again next week. It'll be a garden bite for you. Who's going to post it? Will it be me or Ken? It's a battle down to the wire here. We'll see whoever gets it done first by the garden by next week. A nice short episode for you as you're sitting out there in the garden enjoying these last cool days of spring as we do just head first in the summer.
00:48:19:10 - 00:48:27:10
Speaker 1
So, listeners, thank you for doing what you do best. And that is listening. Or if you're watching this on YouTube, watching and as always, keep on growing.