This is HCD – Human-Centered Design, UX & Service Design Thinking Podcast

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Episode overview
In this deeply human episode, Gerry Scullion speaks with Wellington-based design researcher Rachel Knight about the emotional realities of working in social impact. From navigating trauma-informed projects to setting boundaries as a freelancer, Rachel shares powerful insights on staying grounded while doing meaningful work.

This conversation is essential listening for anyone working in design research, especially those engaging with vulnerable communities or emotionally charged topics.

🔑 Three Key Takeaways
  • Researcher well-being is non-negotiable: plan for self-care like you plan for scope.
  • Freelancers carry unique risks—build your own emotional safety nets.
  • Lived experience is valuable but can carry hidden costs if not properly supported.
Click here to watch a video of this episode.

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Creators and Guests

Host
Gerry Scullion
Gerry Scullion is an Irish-born, globally recognised service designer, educator, podcaster, coach, and founder based in Dublin. With 22+ years in design, his career spans roles in interaction design, UX, and leadership positions—most notably as Head of Design at Myspace Australia/NZ and later serving clients like Cochlear, Microsoft, Aer Lingus, and government bodies  . He’s the Founder & CEO of The Human‑Centered Design Network and the voice behind This is HCD, a popular podcast and design community with over one million downloads . A committed educator, he has developed several online courses—spanning UX fundamentals, journey mapping, stakeholder mapping, prototyping, and service blueprints—as well as authoring “Service Design for Executives” on Pluralsight . A passionate keynote speaker at events like UX Scotland and Service Design Days, he shares his insights on resilience in design, ethical frameworks (“do no harm”), and embedding design within tech-led environments . Gerry is also Co‑founder and Director at Humana Design, a Dublin-based agency focusing on design research, consultancy, and enabling design transformation . Beyond design, he’s a coach and mentor to designers worldwide, a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, and a former Councillor for Ireland . In his personal time, Gerry is a musician, barista-in-training, gardener, and family man living by the sea in Clontarf, Dublin
SM
Editor
Serdar Mele
Serdar Mele is an international podcast editor.
SM
Producer
Stef Murphy
Stef Murphy, is a Dublin based podcast producer.

What is This is HCD – Human-Centered Design, UX & Service Design Thinking Podcast?

Welcome to This is HCD – Human-Centered Design, UX & Service Design Thinking Podcast, the global show for designers, innovators, and changemakers who want to create better products, services, and experiences.

Hosted by Gerry Scullion, with over 1-million downloads worldwide.

Each episode dives into conversations with leading voices in service design, UX design, interaction design, customer experience, and design strategy. Together, we explore the methods, mindsets, and real-world stories that bring human-centered design and design thinking to life.

Whether you’re a UX researcher, service design practitioner, product manager, or design leader, you’ll find actionable insights, practical tools, and inspiration to elevate your practice and drive meaningful change.

Tune in and join the global human-centered design community — learn how to design with purpose, create inclusive solutions, and shape a more thoughtful future.

Gerry Scullion:

Hey, folks, and welcome back to another episode of This Is HCD. My name is Jerry Scullion, and I'm a human centered service design practitioner based in the wonderful city of Dublin, Ireland. In this episode, we are joined with Rachel Knight. Rachel Knight is a fantastic freelance design researcher based in Wellington, New Zealand. There are three powerful takeaways for me in this one.

Gerry Scullion:

The first one is researcher well-being, which is one of the key reasons why myself and Rachel are originally connected. And Rachel speaks candidly about the emotional weight of design research and the toll that it can take on us as practitioners when we do it and how it's really important to set up the right support for both design teams and practitioners. Number two, we talk about the freelancer realities. We explore the unique risks and responsibilities as a freelance researcher, especially in sensitive social contexts. And then the third point is human first reflection.

Gerry Scullion:

Rachel shares how she's learned to identify personal red flags, pace herself, and make self care non negotiable. If you work in design, research, service design, human centered design, or care deeply about the ethics of engaging with people's lived experience, this conversation is just for you then. Hit subscribe, share with your team and let's build a more human centered practice. I know you're going to enjoy it Rachel, it's awesome. Let's jump straight in.

Gerry Scullion:

Rachel Knight, delighted to have you on the podcast. We've been messaging back and forth for a couple of weeks. I think it's been a couple of weeks I saw your post, it was actually four weeks ago and once I saw it I was like, yeah. But let's start off. Maybe tell a little bit about yourself, where you're from and what you do.

Rachel Knight:

Yeah. Sure. So I will start with my or my introduction in Maori, if that's okay. So who am I? So what I said is I'm Rachel, and I whakapapa, or have lineage to the South Island tribe of Nai Tahu, down in Otutahi Christchurch.

Rachel Knight:

Nice. But I grew up in the opposite end of the island, in the North Island, around Kiritikiti and Whangare, and I now live in the beautiful Porirua in Wellington. I love living here with my husband and my cat, who we've already talked about. And I'm a freelance design researcher. So I've been freelancing for about two years now in the social impact sector.

Rachel Knight:

And my background is in design, both in agencies, in charity and in a small social impact agency as well. So yeah. Amazing.

Gerry Scullion:

That's the first time on the podcast we've had Maori spoken. Really? So I'm so proud to be able to because I look at everything that's in New Zealand and how they've handled all of the kind of, I'm trying to think of the word, the repatriarchy Redigitalization maybe? Yeah, I've made a haze of that, but yeah, they've treated the amalgamation, if you want, of the cultures because I see that around the world and when I was in Australia, I'd spoken to many of the governments about the work that they do in that space and I'm sure it's not perfect, but it's just great to hear somebody start a podcast off by acknowledging the former peoples of New Zealand. I'm gonna go with the colonial name of Wellington, you're based in And I'm embarrassed to go by that name because I'm Irish and I'm trying to shed as much colonial skin as possible on my own life.

Gerry Scullion:

Good shout, I love it. We're going through it over here at the moment. But there was a post that you posted that really kind of triggered me to get in touch with you. And if you want, I might read it out, okay, just to get started so people can get the context. And you start off by saying some of the hardest parts of design research are the ones that we're not always trained for.

Gerry Scullion:

Every project where I've listened to people's stories has shifted how I see the world. Many have changed me for the better, but some have left scars. When people share traumatic experiences these voices can stay with you if there's space to process them and let them go. I'm currently in the thick of interviewing Wanu, is that correct? Family, Wanu, I'm probably making absolute names of this as well, For the CoPapa with the Southern Initiative and it's brought back memories of projects where I hadn't yet learned the importance of self care.

Gerry Scullion:

Hearing a story isn't the same as living it but when you listen empathetically over and over without time to breathe, process and release each one, it builds up. Researchers often learn about ethics in terms of avoiding harm to others but we also need to learn how to avoid causing harm to ourselves. So if you're working in social impact or hope to one day, please remember the important work doesn't always need to be the heavy work of that. Find a heavy balance so you can engage deeply when it matters most. Heavy topics often surface when you least expect it.

Gerry Scullion:

People bring their whole selves regardless of the scope or of the research questions. So plan for team support and safety processes even when you think it's a light topic. If you've lived experience it will hit differently. You might not be the right person for a project if it puts your well-being and ability to stay grounded at risk. Give yourself breathing room, try to keep interviews to one to two a day, cramming them in might keep the timeline short but it will take its toll on the long run or in the long run.

Gerry Scullion:

And if you know the work will be heavy, plan for care. If you can, set aside a budget for therapy supervision sessions to debrief and offload as you go. Or use your employer's EAP, your partner, cousins, friends might not have the emotional capacity to hold it all for you. Block out and protect time to refill your cup, whatever that looks like for you, book it in and plan around it. It's an essential part of the work, not a nice to have.

Gerry Scullion:

So there's a whole PDF piece, I'm gonna link to this post in the show notes or if you're on YouTube in the description, go along, like it, share it with your team and so forth because it's a great post. Rachel, the question I have, first of all, get it started, first of all, thanks for writing this post. And second of all as a freelancer, where does the responsibility lie in that self care piece if you're working with your clients?

Rachel Knight:

Yeah, wow, that's a really good question. I mean I think it ultimately lies with yourself if you're freelancing. I think that's always the challenge, right, is you don't have that team around you, and I'm really lucky that most of my clients very much feel like my team, and that is really lovely. I have clients who have really looked after me in in these projects and other ones. But I do think ultimately, if you're running your own business, you need to be budgeting for self care.

Rachel Knight:

You need to be putting aside that money and that time, and you need to be designing it into your day to day, because at the end of the day, you are your own employer. So I think you have So to do yeah, that's what I think.

Gerry Scullion:

The responsibility piece is, depending on how you frame it, is interesting because if you're working in a space like you have by the sounds of it and your employer pays for or say the client in this instance or the employer pays for it, I was also pretty kind of suspicious over the relationship potentially with the psychologist and the agency that you're working with. And not saying that any duty of care could potentially be broken between the psychologist and the employer, but if the work is contentious, I'd love to get your thoughts on the best approaches for that because I have a lived experience in that space. I didn't trust the people that were paying my bills. And if they flagged something they're like, I wanna work in this project, it's my decision. And I didn't want them to say, actually, you know what, we can probably take you off this project.

Rachel Knight:

Yeah.

Gerry Scullion:

That's It's a complex so situation.

Rachel Knight:

Yeah. And I think, I mean, there's responsibility, but there's also finances, right? Really practically speaking. Things like therapy are not cheap and most people can't it. I think from a really practical perspective, EAP makes sense if that's just what you can afford.

Rachel Knight:

Absolutely.

Gerry Scullion:

So for people overseas, what does EAP mean?

Rachel Knight:

Sorry, I think it's like employment assistance program.

Gerry Scullion:

Okay.

Rachel Knight:

Usually it just means therapy that you can access through your employer. But obviously if you're freelancing, that's not a thing. So yeah, that conflict of interest thing is really interesting. And I think if you are in a situation where you can afford to get it independently, great. I just don't think that's the reality for most people.

Gerry Scullion:

I know. Yeah, if you're like, I was lucky I was able to do it in private healthcare in Australia, but I think it was about $200 an hour for psychology. And it was amazing to have it like, not only did it help me, but it actually helped the project as well because they were interested in the topic and they were able to support me. The person was almost like an extended version of the team for me being the team. So where does this come from in your own perspective?

Gerry Scullion:

Because you said that there's lots of conversations that echoed your sort of previous experience. Are you okay to talk about some of this stuff?

Rachel Knight:

Yeah, Yeah. So, yeah, this project that I've been working on, it kind of, brought up memories for me from working on topics probably about six years ago when I worked at a really, amazing little social change agency, which was called Innovate Change. And I went from a kind of corporate design agency straight into the deviant and the social impact sector. And I think my first project was on homelessness in New Zealand and specifically Auckland, and things like heart disease, mother's mental health, drug and alcohol addiction. So quite quickly getting into some really, really intense heavy topics.

Rachel Knight:

And while that was amazing and I had a super supportive, incredible team around me who did put the right safety processes in place, I was very naive and I didn't know the importance of some of these practices and didn't prioritize them enough. And so I think now when I do this kind of work, get a little bit of a red flag in my head, and it reminded me to take a moment and to pause and to think about what did I learn from those previous projects, and therefore what do I need to put in place this time when I do this work. So although I shared it with other people, it was really just a reminder for myself to, yeah, really think more intentionally about how I was gonna protect myself and therefore the other people in this project I was working on. So that's kind of where it came from in those previous projects I worked on.

Gerry Scullion:

Yeah, absolutely. I think the too often we think this just happens if you're working in the social impact space, but it can work across when you're looking into other people's lives. So when you're looking at, you mentioned they're being naive when you went into those and you had the support network around there. Can you talk to me about what the mindset was like at that point? Like obviously there was probably a strong fire and a burning inside that you wanted to do good.

Rachel Knight:

Oh yeah.

Gerry Scullion:

That's very typical when I coach people who are starting out, I just want to fix everything.

Rachel Knight:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%.

Gerry Scullion:

So what were your mindset was like at that time?

Rachel Knight:

Oh, I was just eager for it. It was like it was my dream job. Anything like you always say about the word gnarly, the gnarly of the topic, the more interested I was. So yeah, as soon as as soon as my manager at the time said, you know, do you want to work on this homelessness project? I'm like, oh, of course, it sounds amazing.

Rachel Knight:

And I just didn't know what I was really getting myself into. I think as designers, we we do have the mindset and the belief that we can and should change the world. And that's a very powerful belief to have. But it's also a huge responsibility if you are going into complex places where you can't change things. Then you hear these stories about these broken systems and how it's impacting people's lives and you walk away with that weight and you hold it for a very long time.

Gerry Scullion:

So So if you could go back. Yeah. Imagine we we had this magic wand Mhmm. And we went back to that time, and you were able to spend one minute with Rachel at that time. And you could you could say something for one minute into their ears to prepare them, what would it be?

Rachel Knight:

Don't think you can prepare someone in terms of what they will hear if they've had a safe upbringing, because I just don't think you can prepare for that. But I would I would just say to younger Rachel, I'd say get supervision right now, like start it now for seeing a therapist because because I didn't end up finding someone that I liked at the time and didn't see someone regularly. Yeah. It meant I just kept holding on to those stories and they're still in my head now. So I haven't properly let them go and that they just stay with you that can impact how you how you are as a person.

Rachel Knight:

So, yeah, that's that would be my very practical advice. And don't do so many in a row because I went from a kind of corporate world where you could do five interviews in a day because it kind of really hurt your head, but it didn't hurt your heart. But going into this kind of work, you can't. You just can't rush

Gerry Scullion:

it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so true.

Gerry Scullion:

It's so true. Like, so there's there's a whole generation of young, you know, eager to learn designers and they're struggling to get what would be called like a corporate if you want, a job, like getting into an internship or whatever it is. And they're looking for any opportunities. As a result when they're so desperate to get a break, there's potentially their risk that they're happy to do things where they're unprepared for. So what do we need to do as a craft, as an industry, as a faculty if you want to support that next generation of designers.

Gerry Scullion:

As we mentioned, it is expensive to go to therapy. There's other services out there online, one in particular I wanna call out is called BetterHelp. I tried that and they were absolutely awful, turns out they're not actually licensed, many of them are just not good. I think they're just therapists who've got certificates and stuff. I remember explaining, I had a session with one of them and they were like, this is just an amazing story.

Gerry Scullion:

And I go, I'm sorry, what? They go, yeah, your whole childhood is just so chaotic. And I was like, sorry, what? I was like, I'd never that's when I started like, BetterHelp, I wanna call out they're if not the option here, a cheaper online version of it. But if you had to say to maybe educators in the design world who are helping form these designers through academia, Have you heard of any academic institutions that are really thinking like this?

Gerry Scullion:

Because that's a huge area, like most designers that I'm learning about now and I'm seeing, they want to do good, want to work in the social space, they want to work in governments, they want to research with people out there in the context of their homes in some instances. So there's lots of situations that can be quite difficult to navigate.

Rachel Knight:

Oh yeah.

Gerry Scullion:

Socially and safety as well.

Rachel Knight:

Yeah. I think there are definitely, places doing it well. I think whether or not there's many places doing it well in design, like I feel like I feel like for a long time, designers have been trying to advocate for their own value. And I'd really advise designers and people learning about design to learn from outside the design discipline, because these people who have been doing this work for years and years and years, and we can just, you know, learn from them. So there is an element of design education incorporating those skills and that experience into what they're doing.

Rachel Knight:

But I also think there's a piece of if you're interested in the space, go learn from the experts who've been doing it for a very long time as well. So I think it's a bit of both.

Gerry Scullion:

There's definitely like there's Rachel Deakers who I mentioned there before opened, like when I went through all of this stuff like ten years ago, from where we're at then to where we're at now, I think the industry is much more aware and they're happy to talk about these things.

Rachel Knight:

Rachel

Gerry Scullion:

is writing a book on trauma informed design on MIT at the moment, or with MIT should I say, and really opened my mind to it. So there's people out there as well that really speak about the importance of self care. So maybe myself and yourself could think of a few others that we can put links to in the show notes for people to follow and read about and so forth. So it'd be nice to have bunch of resources because this is a really important topic. In the post that you mentioned there, there's a few other aspects about defining heavy topics.

Gerry Scullion:

How do we, if we, me and you, you know do a Miro board and we list out all the heavy topics that we think are there, Yeah. That's only our own perspective on what a heavy topic is. Yeah. How does someone self identify what a heavy topic is

Rachel Knight:

in Yeah, your that's such a good point. And you're so right. It is subjective. Like people who work on the front lines hear this kind of stuff all the time. So what is heavy to them would be quite different.

Rachel Knight:

Yeah. I think it comes down to what you notice gives you a reaction, you know, it's when you start to feel your heartbeat change, and it's when your stomach goes tight. It's when, you know, we use the word triggering probably too much these days, but when it does trigger a response in you, whether that's shock or, disgust or heartbreak, whatever that is, I think that is heavy, and that needs a bit of wraparound support around it. Yeah. And sometimes that will surprise you what that topic is.

Gerry Scullion:

Yeah. There's yeah. I mean, like, I I've got an instance in this where I was researching for a bank years ago. Yeah. Maybe about six or seven years ago.

Gerry Scullion:

And it was around money management. And, you know, money is important in the world, but I naively entered a conversation with a woman who started to cry when we're talking about access to funds. And when you have that realization where you just kind of go, it's like this little slowly but surely everything goes into slow motion like, Oh no, as if I've hit an absolute sore point. Turns out there was domestic issues there and there was control and there was manipulation and there was all these awful topics. And there was the one research session that the CIO decided to sit in in the bank, And in my mind I was like, well, this is real.

Gerry Scullion:

I said, it's not a transaction. This is what we're talking about here. So even something that we can think of like, oh, I'm working in the financial sector.

Rachel Knight:

Oh, yeah, I know. I think that's why I called it out. I think it's so easy to make the assumption that, you know, just because you've defined your research scope that there won't be things outside of that. So I think you're better off if you're doing any form of research with people about their lives. I just think you're better to plan for what will that support look like for you and for them.

Rachel Knight:

And if you don't need it, great. But if you do, you've already planned it.

Gerry Scullion:

You're ready. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned there a lot of the stuff that you've learned and this is across the board folks. Nearly everyone that I work with and have worked with are exactly the same as Rachel. They've learned on the job, they've learned through failures, micro failures, all of those different pieces.

Gerry Scullion:

How do you kind of avoid those repeated mistakes when you're finding them? Because when you're researching it's easy to kind of navigate. But sometimes there's this kind of area where you're gonna go, well actually there's probably a rich train of information and I'm curious about that. What are the signs that you look for when you're researching to say, actually is this? How would you approach that inner curiosity versus balancing I might be going into a gray area in that area?

Gerry Scullion:

Because when you're researching you're like actually I'd love to understand that one a little bit more, like you know?

Rachel Knight:

Yeah, I know, I have I think this is where a lot of it has really challenged what I was taught about research.

Gerry Scullion:

Yeah. So if

Rachel Knight:

I think of a recent example where a mother was telling me about her experiences of support services, it was very clear that and she described this herself that trust is a challenge for her, and there's very, very good reasons for that. And so immediately for me, I kind of realized I need to be very careful about my curiosity because she needs to be in control in this interview. I said that up front, you know, she doesn't have to answer any questions. But there is an inherent power dynamic if you are giving a gift or money or anything to acknowledge their time. When there's confidentiality, you know, anything like that, where there's power dynamic.

Rachel Knight:

I immediately went, no, actually, this could be a short interview, and I might not dive into particular areas because I know that she'll be thinking in the back of her head that there are risks around disclosing any of that information. Okay. So I think so much of it is just, yes, listening to what people are saying, but listening to how they're saying it and how comfortable they sound, asking yourself is the most important thing here getting a juicy quote, or is it actually keeping that person and their family

Gerry Scullion:

safe after this? Extractive. Oh yeah. It's very easy. That's why I think it's so important to select the right researcher.

Gerry Scullion:

If you look at someone who's relatively new to us, how they determine their own self worth, trying to get this articulated correctly, is through rich quotes and rich reflection points that can really in their world transform, you know, and increase the chances of action based stuff within the project. Too often like we may go too far in my perspective. I mean I'd love to see, I've never done it, I'd love to do a series of research for a client someday who's gonna go, do you know what, start asking the questions and I just realized it wasn't appropriate to ask some of these questions. They would not be able to most clients would really struggle with that. So talk to me about where and how you're learning.

Gerry Scullion:

You mentioned there about learning on the job. You seem like the sort of person who's doing a lot of internal reflection and continuous learning and reading and stuff. Where do you find areas, first of all, how do you find areas within your own skill set that you need to improve on? And second of all, how do you select the right educational practice?

Rachel Knight:

Far out. Good questions. Okay, so the first one, how do you find areas that you need to focus on?

Gerry Scullion:

As a researcher.

Rachel Knight:

Yeah, as a researcher. I think the the best way for me to figure that out is working with other people because that's when you see that they have skills or knowledge, expertise that you don't have and that you have so much you can learn from them. Yeah. So that's my favorite way to figure that out. And that's, yeah, that's why I love working with other people like my mate Katarana Davis, who has all this expertise within teo Maori, the Maori world.

Rachel Knight:

Working with people like that, it just constantly challenges you. Have to rethink everything you do. So I think that's a really, really wonderful way to figure out where you can stretch yourself or where you can grow. In terms of the formal education stuff, I'm not so good at that. I actually I mean, speaking of self care, I'm not someone who actually listens much to podcasts or reads books about work.

Rachel Knight:

And that came very much from needing to switch off from work. Yeah. When I started working on these really intense, intense projects, I think I drew a line that I need to read escapism. I need to read fantasy or something like that that takes me completely out of my work. When I want to learn, really for me, it is learning from people.

Rachel Knight:

That's what I find works for me best, but other people learn in lots of different ways.

Gerry Scullion:

Absolutely. I think, you know, that that works for you and you've identified it. I'm keen to understand more around the reflection pieces though. You mentioned there maybe you see a therapist as well to maintain both mental health and practical capacity when you're working in these Is there any reflective practices that you use in terms of what's happening in the industry? So you can see maybe at the moment there's there's a huge homelessness problem across the world.

Gerry Scullion:

So when you're working in those spaces, is there something out there, is there anything out there that you can point at and say well actually there's an area that I need to be able to navigate potentially harmful situations physically. I know I've spoken to researchers, they said I've been in situations where I've had to you know get out very quickly. Is that something that's in your consciousness when you're researching a person, How you actually navigate that world?

Rachel Knight:

Like physical safety and that's

Gerry Scullion:

Physical a safety. How you approach those topics? Because I've had people at the moment they went out and they were knocking on doors which was like first of that's a recipe for disaster. And there was a sword was a sword on one of the couches and I'm like, so what happened to this is I left, left very quickly. Because there was a weapon and I go perfect.

Gerry Scullion:

But also door knocking is very, you know, kind of guerrilla style for a start.

Rachel Knight:

That's pretty extreme.

Gerry Scullion:

Pretty extreme, you know. So how do you like, is that something that's ever in your consciousness? It seems that whenever we're researching that it could be in a room or it could be in a work setting that you could trigger these areas and something could happen.

Rachel Knight:

Yeah. So I've definitely been in situations in the past where we have been interviewing in homes. There were a whole lot of processes around that though in terms of being introduced by a trusted person, often a social worker, making sure we were going in as peers, to never being on your own, having someone call you before and after the interview. So there were a whole lot of safety processes around that. But I think these days so much of my work is online and because I'm freelancing now, if a client asks me about doing a project like this, I can not only say, well, I'd need all of these things in place to make sure that I'm safe.

Rachel Knight:

I can also have the conversation around is that the best approach? Does that person want me to come into their home or would they actually prefer we have a phone conversation because then it's a lot more confidential, they can stop at any point, they don't have a complete stranger coming in. So I think there's a lot bigger kind of spectrum around the approaches, what's best for both people. So that's usually the conversation I'll start with I think.

Gerry Scullion:

As a freelancer, and you're being brought into projects, is there ever a case where they're expecting you to go out on your own to do the

Rachel Knight:

Into homes?

Gerry Scullion:

No, just generally go out and do the research on your own.

Rachel Knight:

Yeah, I mean, so I've been doing these interviews with families on my own, but there have been phone calls mostly, and a few video calls. So from a physical safety point of view, that is a lot simpler to deal with.

Gerry Scullion:

Yeah. 100%.

Rachel Knight:

I've not been asked to go into homes or to go out into the community to do research on my own yet. I'll kind of cross that bridge if I get to it. But that yeah. There's a whole lot of things you need to put around that to make sure

Gerry Scullion:

Yeah.

Rachel Knight:

That is a safe in that.

Gerry Scullion:

Because I see like the design research industry in particular, lots of people being laid off, but the requirement is still there to do the research. So as a result, the gig economy is only gonna grow more. And as a result, the standards could drop. That's my concern that if more and more people do design research in a freelance capacity, the client, the employer, whatever you wanna call them, they could really shed that responsibility and saying it's on your own as a result you're at the discretion. There is a power dynamic, they're paying you, you need to do the job.

Gerry Scullion:

I think we need to stand firm on some of those things like if you're being asked to go out, you need to be shadowed by another person at least. I've never, I'm white, I'm a man, I'm six foot two, I'm not easily kind of taken hold of. I think in those situations balancing the situation with risk is more often than not considered enough in those situations. Are you okay to talk more around some of the other elements that are in that carousel around breathing room? Because there was a piece that I remember talking about limiting your research to two sessions a day.

Gerry Scullion:

Yeah. And I personally I come from banking and finance and startups and I was like, yeah, let's do six a day. Efficiently. As a flex. Yeah.

Gerry Scullion:

Where did that realization come from from you? That too is That probably

Rachel Knight:

one, so that one has a bit of a story behind it. So I think I might have mentioned I came from I guess a more kind of corporate or design agency world. So that was where we would go on road trips and, you know, do five interviews a day and get to be exhausted, but it was all kind of head exhaustion. I then kind of tried to apply that same logic in the social impact sector. And that was when I was working on the homelessness project with Auckland Council.

Rachel Knight:

And there is one story in particular, and I won't go into it in too much detail, but just to demonstrate the point. So, mother had come into our studio to share her life experiences with me. And essentially she was telling me about the how unstable her son's kind of early childhood had been. They moved around multiple places and couch surfed and didn't have any kind of stable home. And she told me how when he got older, he essentially passed away from a drug overdose.

Rachel Knight:

And she blamed herself for that. So when you when you hear stories like that, and you have booked an interview for the next hour, you know, you have half an hour between them. Your only option, I think, is to push that emotion down and to go numb.

Gerry Scullion:

Yeah.

Rachel Knight:

Just to cope with going from hearing that story and being human in that moment with that person, and then going straight into another conversation with someone about their experiences. So I think that story in particular and that woman in particular, obviously, you can hear, you know, it still weighs on me pretty heavily. I can still remember her story in detail, and, that's a real reminder for me that you can't cram these things in. You have to create space because if you don't process them and let them go as you go, they will stay with you. And it's not a good thing if they stay with you.

Rachel Knight:

So yeah, that one in particular.

Gerry Scullion:

It's interesting. Are you okay to keep talking about more around these topics? Yeah, you're okay. Someone said to me years ago and I wanna get your thoughts on it, I'm a highly sensitive person, HSV, okay, so I take things and I wear them in terms of what people say to me and I carry them with me even though I might play off and be like, oh yeah, it doesn't bother me, it does bother me when someone says those things. Someone said to me years ago, maybe HSPs aren't the right people to do research.

Gerry Scullion:

And I'm like, well what's the alternative? You got sociopaths? And they're like, well, what do you mean? I go, so people who don't really empathize and don't really carry those pieces across. Do you think there's a certain type of person that gravitates to research and is that a valid point that someone made to me years ago about like maybe you shouldn't do research?

Gerry Scullion:

And I'm like, it still lingers that question. And it was in Australia and I'm like, actually it triggered something really visceral. Was just like, oh, you used to say that I shouldn't do research, like, you know? I was like, how you? But it really got me thinking like, you know, like, is there something in that?

Rachel Knight:

Yeah. Yeah. Have thoughts

Gerry Scullion:

on I

Rachel Knight:

have thoughts on that. So so there's two parts. So the first one was, do you think a particular type of person is drawn to research? I think absolutely you have to be interested in humans. Yeah, you know, if you're not curious about humans and their experiences, you will not enjoy research because that is your job.

Rachel Knight:

That is to be a professional learner about people and their lives. So yes, I think it makes sense if you're drawn to it, whether or not you're the right person to do the job if you have, you know, a high level of empathy.

Gerry Scullion:

Yeah.

Rachel Knight:

See, I think there's a couple of bits here because if you don't get any great quotes if they say at the end of that conversation, I'm sorry, I don't want you to use that interview, that it's irrelevant, need to be able to walk out of the room feeling like they were heard and they were safe. Yeah. I think that's your number one.

Gerry Scullion:

100%.

Rachel Knight:

You don't want people to be doing this work who aren't making those people feel heard and okay in the moment. I think that's the most important thing.

Gerry Scullion:

Yeah. Whether or

Rachel Knight:

not highly sensitive people can look after themselves well, that's a different question, I think. Absolutely. Yeah, you need to be able to to look after yourself and cope. And I think the point where you can't either in a project or in your career, that's when yeah, stepping away might be the right thing for you. But I don't think it's

Gerry Scullion:

a way categorize people.

Rachel Knight:

Yeah, no, I don't think it's that. It's about is it still working for the person you're interviewing and for yourself?

Gerry Scullion:

I think at that point when someone said that to me, that it was a case that I was starting probably to unravel on that project. Was like saying there was lots of stuff going on, my first child was on its way and I was working in a space where very young children were being abused. There was definitely days where I'm like, I just can't function, this is just too much for me, brain. So maybe there's something in it, maybe there's not, but I think it's contextual to the person and the topic as well if you're able to do it. One of the pieces that you mentioned and I just want to go back to it a little bit more, is this whole kind of mirroring scenario of our own past, own childhoods and our own kind of adolescence and stuff.

Gerry Scullion:

When you're researching in those spaces, sometimes it can become quite triggering and you might know what that past trauma is without professional assistance. So you might kind of go, yeah okay, I've got some lived experience in that and lived experience is kind of, it's powerful, but at certain times that power shifts into a damaging power.

Rachel Knight:

So

Gerry Scullion:

like how do we ensure that we're selecting the right person with lived experience and that they're being supported in the correct way? So we're not just hiring for that lived experience and then they're reliving that trauma?

Rachel Knight:

Yeah. Think so Yeah,

Gerry Scullion:

much of

Rachel Knight:

it is so much of it is think it's the consent and the boundaries around that lived experience, right? Like, yes, I have that lived experience, but you have to consent to using that or leaning into that in your work. And I think that's an ongoing thing. Yeah. You might say, yes, one day I can cope with it and that's okay.

Rachel Knight:

And then the next day you might say, actually, I can't today. I need to be able to step away because this is impacting me too much. But I do think there's sometimes seems to be a bit of an assumption that if you have lived experience you're the best person to be leading that work or doing those interviews, and I think sometimes it can be the opposite because you can't can't step away from it. You have a really strong bias from your own It brings up really hard things, it brings up a reaction, and you can't stay grounded or you can't treat that other person as the expert. So I don't think it's black and white.

Rachel Knight:

Again, I think it comes down to the person and the project and the moment and the context.

Gerry Scullion:

Yeah. Can I talk to you a little bit more around refilling the cup? Yeah. Refilling the cup because

Rachel Knight:

That's a nice one.

Gerry Scullion:

Yeah, no, I think it's potentially a lighter part of the conversation. So how do you identify with your cup being full or empty? Like what are the physical and mental identifiers that you look for?

Rachel Knight:

Really practically speaking, I just know it's if I've spent time outside. Looking. It can be that straightforward for me. So for example, getting out on my my bike or getting into the garden, like the non negotiables. I have to do it because I notice the difference in my mood and my patience is completely different.

Rachel Knight:

You're not going keep that adrenaline adrenaline out of your system. So those are super, super important for me. And I do that every day and then prioritize it more so if I'm doing these kinds of projects. So, yeah, that's I mean, you can look for how you're feeling as a person, but you can also just go, I need to do these things and I will just do them and commit.

Gerry Scullion:

Yeah. And you're in Wellington as well, so it's an awful place to be out and about, you know, it's just, you know, the air is, I'm only joking, it's one of the most special places on earth.

Rachel Knight:

It's beautiful.

Gerry Scullion:

So you're absolutely spoiled for that. But in terms of the cup needing to be refilled, is there instances where, because I actually speaking to a few people at the moment who are, I'm probably in that camp as well where I'm getting close to burnout, Is that something that's happened to you? I'd love to know, and what have you done to try and refill the cup and take care? Is there anything, any systems that you have in place to make sure that you're preempting the burnout, you're preempting you're close to those mental health red flags if you want when you're researching? Because we become much more effective I believe, as human beings when your cup is there, like you know?

Rachel Knight:

Yeah. Yeah, totally. I don't know about formal systems. I mean I have a human being, my husband, who is extremely helpful at measuring kind of how I'm doing and how full my cup is or isn't.

Gerry Scullion:

Yeah, good

Rachel Knight:

though. So I think he is probably my human system for checking in on how I'm going. Yeah. And whether or not I need to do some things to refill, that cup is a big part of that for sure.

Gerry Scullion:

There was something years ago like, I think that the other people in your life is a really solid answer to They usually see things that you don't see or like maybe you should go for a walk, why? Because you're being really difficult. And that's one that when my wife says it to me, I'm just like, yeah.

Rachel Knight:

Yeah, 100%.

Gerry Scullion:

So yeah, it's been a tough day. But I remember Hector Garcia, who was on the podcast a couple of years ago and he wrote a couple of books in Ikigai and he's a fantastic thinker. And he spoke about word that is eluding me at the moment in Japanese culture about a number of adventures that you scheduled throughout the year

Rachel Knight:

A Yeah.

Gerry Scullion:

To help maintain the cup. And I was like, oh I love that. And he says, yes, but it's with intent, it's not just like we struggled, we stumbled upon this thing this day, it's like you know that there's these pieces that are scheduled throughout the year and that's already in the calendar. You've planned the year from the get go and you know that in March climbing this or in June you're gonna be doing this and it's only two or three days. I thought that was a really nice way of helping maintain the cup being a little bit more full than empty.

Gerry Scullion:

That's

Rachel Knight:

awesome, yeah.

Gerry Scullion:

Probably resonates more when you're in New Zealand, you can go bungee jumping there, we could go

Rachel Knight:

Yeah. I think you're right in terms of when you talk about burnout. Think many New Zealanders have had a bad habit, myself, where you kind of just push yourself through the winter and wait for this big long summer break. Whereas I think now we have Matariki, the Maori New Year in the middle of winter. And so even having those kind of, you know, those reminders to take a moment and to celebrate what's been and look back and look forward and taking that time to look after yourself in the cold, months.

Rachel Knight:

I think those things can help you to plan those getaways.

Gerry Scullion:

Is that around solstice? Is that around June 20

Rachel Knight:

Just had it just last week. Goes for a long time, but we have the anniversary or the weekends. We

Gerry Scullion:

call it solstice and it comes from druids and pagans Ireland, so I celebrated it too as well, which was fantastic. Rachel, there's so much stuff that we could unpack more and I'd like to invite you back onto the podcast whenever you want onto the podcast, should I say. If people wanna follow you and connect with you and maybe speak about opportunities to work, what's the best way for people to get in touch with you?

Rachel Knight:

Yeah, definitely LinkedIn is always a great way these Or just find my email on LinkedIn, I always love to chat with people doing good work.

Gerry Scullion:

Maybe we could put your email in the show notes, would that be? Yeah, that'd be awesome. I think we can do that as well. It's fantastic to speak with someone, one who's freelance, I love the fact that you're freelance and that gives us a certain amount of autonomy to select the projects. What kind of projects float your boat?

Rachel Knight:

Yeah. Anything in the social impact or environmental space. I know that's very broad.

Gerry Scullion:

Nice and broad, yeah.

Rachel Knight:

Nice and broad. No, what I've kind of learned over the years, so I have a couple of friends who have founded charities. The kinds of people who have a vision have this one thing that they're passionate about and they just do it, and that is brilliant. I've learned that I don't have that one thing, that one topic, but what I love is working with people who are already doing the hard work and just making it a little bit easier for them. So just giving their work a bit more clarity or a little bit of a boost.

Rachel Knight:

I don't have the resilience to do the front of front of house and frontline work. I've learned that. But I really, really love just supporting those people who are doing the hard mahi, the hard work

Gerry Scullion:

and

Rachel Knight:

yeah, making

Gerry Scullion:

it Nice. Rachel, listen, I wrap up every podcast that I do by thanking people for their time, their energy and their vulnerability because we're speaking about topics here that they matter. So thank you for giving me your time and your evening as well because I know I'm cutting into your very, very important New Zealand TV time.

Rachel Knight:

We don't have a TV.

Gerry Scullion:

You don't have a TV? But I know I'm cutting into your evening, so I really appreciate you giving me that opportunity to spend some time with you. I'll put a link to everything that you're doing, put a link to that post as well so you can look at it and download the PDF and I'd encourage you as the listeners to connect with Rachel, but also to share that PDF and share that post out to the people in your team to start having conversations around these things. This is what we're all about here in This Is HCD. So if you've got any questions, point you towards Rachel.

Gerry Scullion:

Thanks so much for your time.

Rachel Knight:

Thanks so much, Sherry. It was lovely to chat.