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The cost & courage of caring - stories that spark resilience.
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Welcome back to this week's
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episode of The Caregiver's
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Podcast.
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I'm your host, Dr.
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Mark
Ropaleski.
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You can call me Dr.
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Mark.
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In today's conversation, we're
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looking at what estrangement
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becomes when time is running out,
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how abuse, neglect, and old family
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roles complicate caregiving,
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and how adult children and
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siblings can make decisions they
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can live with later.
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It's one
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thing to keep the distance from a
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parent when life is relatively
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stable, but it's another
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situation when that parent becomes
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sick, dependent, and close to
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death.
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Then the questions get harder.
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What do we owe?
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What if the parent was harmful?
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Can you help without reopening the
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relationship
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and the wounds?
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And what happens when estranged
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siblings are suddenly forced to
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make decisions
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together about a parent they may
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each remember very differently?
0:00:41.340,0:00:42.619
Our guest today is Dr.
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Joshua
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Coleman, a clinical psychologist
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and author of The Rules of
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Estrangement, Why Adult Children
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Cut Ties, and How to Heal That
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Conflict.
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His work on family estrangement
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has also reached a broad
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audience through major platforms,
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including Oprah and the Mel
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Robbins podcast.
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Dr.
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Coleman,
welcome to The Caregiver's
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Podcast.
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And before we begin, please
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subscribe to The Caregiver's
0:01:06.450,0:01:08.760
Podcast
on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or
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wherever you listen.
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It's free, it takes just a second,
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and it's the best way to support
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the show.
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Dr.
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Joshua Coleman, welcome to The
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Caregiver's Podcast.
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We're so happy you're here joining
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us
today.
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Thank you for having me.
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Glad to be here.
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So in the tradition of the
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podcast, I love to jump right into
0:01:28.400,0:01:31.239
things and start with a
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really important question.
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And that is, before we delve into
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and bring this to the arena of
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caregiving, how do you define
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family estrangement in today's
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terms?
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Yeah, and different people define
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it different ways.
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I think of estrangement as a
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formal cutoff.
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When an adult child says to a
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parent, I don't want to, I'm going
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no contact with you, or they just
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stop
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responding to them, or they move
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and don't tell the parent where,
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they cut them off from all forms
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of
social media.
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So to me, it's a pretty hard break
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in the relationship.
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For some, it may be the parent
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maybe gets a Mother's Day card or
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something, but otherwise, the
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adult child is completely out of
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contact.
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So to me, it's a pretty serious
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rent in the relationship.
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So what tells you that a family
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relationship is no longer just
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conflict or distance, but sort of
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entrenched estrangement?
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Well, most of the time, it's the
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parent who's reaching out to me,
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and they do so in response to
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the fact that their child has
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stopped responding to them.
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Or they've written them a letter
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saying,
you need to respect my boundaries.
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I don't want you in my life
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anymore, the lives of my children.
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You're toxic.
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You're emotionally immature.
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Please respect my boundaries.
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Don't contact me.
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So usually, the evidence is fairly
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straightforward.
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Now, in some cases, a minority of
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the adult child
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might just completely stop
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responding at all, and the parent
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doesn't know why, and all their
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entreaties toward contact get
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ignored.
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But most of the time, there's some
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kind of a communication that
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lets the parent know that an
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estrangement is going on.
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I think it's really important for
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our listeners to also understand,
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and perhaps you can define this a
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little bit further.
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But this is not usually just a
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single one-off event, but this is
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a process that
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has a timeline to it.
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Can you tell us a little bit more
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about how these are categorized?
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Well, yeah.
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I mean, there are, I'd say, five
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different pathways to
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estrangement.
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And one of the
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things I want to emphasize is that
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if you just read the news or
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social media, you would assume
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that it's
0:03:43.000,0:03:44.939
only abusive parents who are
0:03:44.939,0:03:45.919
getting cut off.
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Because every day there's some new
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first-person
0:03:48.539,0:03:50.919
essay or memoir coming out, you
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know, like Jenny McCurdy's book,
0:03:52.539,0:03:54.340
I'm Glad My Mother Died, or other
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books that talk about kind of the
0:03:56.340,0:03:58.409
values and virtues of going, you
0:03:58.409,0:03:59.530
know, contact.
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And those are typically
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from parents who are truly abusive
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or abjectly neglectful.
0:04:04.479,0:04:06.229
But that doesn't constitute, I
0:04:06.229,0:04:06.599
would say,
0:04:06.599,0:04:08.310
even the majority of parents who
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become estranged.
0:04:09.639,0:04:11.069
Often it's because the parents
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divorced, either when
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the children were young or the
0:04:13.409,0:04:15.819
children are grown, and either one
0:04:15.819,0:04:17.209
parent poisons the child against
0:04:17.209,0:04:18.889
the
other parent, or the parent
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remarries and the adult child
0:04:20.930,0:04:22.629
doesn't like who the parent
0:04:22.629,0:04:23.480
remarried, or the
0:04:23.660,0:04:25.100
person that the parent remarried
0:04:25.100,0:04:26.788
doesn't like the child.
0:04:26.788,0:04:30.360
Or the adult child allies more
0:04:30.360,0:04:30.819
with one
0:04:30.819,0:04:32.089
parent, even if the parents are
0:04:32.089,0:04:34.100
doing a good job as divorced
0:04:34.100,0:04:36.750
parents kind of navigating the
0:04:36.750,0:04:37.180
conflict and
0:04:37.180,0:04:39.300
the disruption in the marriage.
0:04:39.300,0:04:40.680
So divorce is a really big
0:04:40.680,0:04:41.060
predictor.
0:04:41.060,0:04:42.500
Like in my survey of 1600,
0:04:42.639,0:04:44.930
estranged parents, 70% of them
0:04:44.930,0:04:45.889
were divorced.
0:04:45.889,0:04:48.079
So we know that divorce is a huge
0:04:48.079,0:04:49.519
cause.
0:04:49.519,0:04:50.480
Mental illness in
0:04:50.589,0:04:51.699
the parents, certainly, but also
0:04:51.699,0:04:53.149
mental illness or addictions in
0:04:53.149,0:04:55.319
the adult child, the role of
0:04:55.319,0:04:55.670
therapy
0:04:55.670,0:04:57.298
or therapists or other caregivers
0:04:57.298,0:04:59.379
who, you know, say that
0:04:59.379,0:05:00.980
estrangement's in your best
0:05:01.139,0:05:03.019
interest or diagnosing the parent
0:05:03.019,0:05:04.860
whom they've never met, normal
0:05:04.860,0:05:06.399
separation, individuation.
0:05:06.399,0:05:07.160
So it kind of
0:05:07.339,0:05:08.970
depends on the nature of the
0:05:08.970,0:05:10.290
estranged, but whether it's sort
0:05:10.290,0:05:13.600
of a gradual straw that broke the
0:05:13.600,0:05:14.100
camel's back,
0:05:14.139,0:05:16.050
kind of a death by a thousand
0:05:16.050,0:05:18.430
cuts, which is not uncommon.
0:05:18.430,0:05:21.480
Or it's more do, well, the other
0:05:21.480,0:05:21.980
thing I
0:05:22.019,0:05:23.220
didn't mention was politics, which
0:05:23.220,0:05:25.139
are also a common pathway to
0:05:25.139,0:05:25.610
estrangement.
0:05:25.610,0:05:26.459
So sometimes that's more
0:05:26.600,0:05:27.040
sudden.
0:05:27.040,0:05:28.189
Oh, you voted for Trump, so I
0:05:28.189,0:05:30.139
can't have you in my life.
0:05:30.139,0:05:31.910
Or, you know, something else
0:05:31.910,0:05:32.399
that's more
0:05:32.399,0:05:32.779
sudden.
0:05:32.779,0:05:34.740
Or you, my wife or husband doesn't
0:05:34.740,0:05:36.829
like you, and they're, you know,
0:05:36.829,0:05:37.839
basically making me choose
0:05:38.000,0:05:38.959
things between them and you.
0:05:38.959,0:05:41.180
And that can also be more, more
0:05:41.180,0:05:42.600
abrupt.
0:05:42.600,0:05:44.800
So, so obviously, when a parent
0:05:44.959,0:05:47.050
then becomes sick, frail,
0:05:47.050,0:05:50.709
dependent, and close to death, I
0:05:50.709,0:05:52.790
mean, how does that change the
0:05:52.790,0:05:53.209
emotional
0:05:53.209,0:05:56.139
reality of estrangement when that
0:05:56.139,0:05:57.899
starts looming?
0:05:57.899,0:05:59.459
I mean, sometimes it doesn't,
0:05:59.459,0:06:00.519
sometimes it doesn't.
0:06:00.629,0:06:02.620
Um, for some adult children, it
0:06:02.620,0:06:05.699
may cause them to, um, reach back
0:06:05.699,0:06:06.959
out to the parent to heal
0:06:07.139,0:06:09.600
the distance, to be willing to
0:06:09.600,0:06:11.379
have some kind of a relationship
0:06:11.379,0:06:13.540
with a parent, uh, both because
0:06:13.680,0:06:15.279
they might have felt guilty about
0:06:15.279,0:06:16.389
being estranged in the first
0:06:16.389,0:06:18.009
place, uh, or just don't want the
0:06:18.199,0:06:20.209
parent to die, you know, with,
0:06:20.209,0:06:22.589
with that kind of heartbreak on
0:06:22.589,0:06:24.230
their, in their, you know, hearts
0:06:24.230,0:06:25.060
and
minds.
0:06:25.060,0:06:26.540
Uh, but for others, it doesn't
0:06:26.540,0:06:28.600
really seem to move the needle at
0:06:28.600,0:06:29.740
all.
I don't know if you saw my
0:06:29.939,0:06:31.538
Oprah, the first Oprah interview,
0:06:31.538,0:06:33.480
but there was a, uh, hospice nurse
0:06:33.480,0:06:35.420
who talked about how sometimes,
0:06:35.819,0:06:39.079
you know, a dying parent will want
0:06:39.079,0:06:41.720
her to like give a letter, uh, or
0:06:41.720,0:06:42.720
encourage, you know, the,
0:06:42.860,0:06:45.139
that person to reach out to the,
0:06:45.139,0:06:46.319
uh, dying parent.
0:06:46.319,0:06:47.420
And, you know, and her position
0:06:47.420,0:06:48.079
was, well, I don't
0:06:48.220,0:06:50.250
want anybody to feel guilty about
0:06:50.250,0:06:51.100
not doing that.
0:06:51.100,0:06:52.560
And I felt like, well, actually
0:06:52.560,0:06:53.199
it's a, that's an
0:06:53.379,0:06:54.949
appropriate place to feel guilt.
0:06:54.949,0:06:56.939
I think if your parents dying, uh,
0:06:56.939,0:06:58.459
it's reasonable time to kind of
0:06:58.569,0:07:00.740
put aside your, some of your own
0:07:00.740,0:07:01.668
feelings or objections.
0:07:01.668,0:07:02.850
So obviously if your parent
0:07:02.850,0:07:03.319
throughout
0:07:03.319,0:07:04.769
your life was incredibly abusive
0:07:04.769,0:07:06.660
and neglectful, and you know, the
0:07:06.660,0:07:08.860
things that you've, um, have
0:07:09.019,0:07:10.579
really hurt you or damaged you
0:07:10.579,0:07:12.069
have been lifelong, I could
0:07:12.069,0:07:13.389
imagine why somebody might not
0:07:13.389,0:07:13.920
feel like,
0:07:14.009,0:07:16.689
um, they're, they sort of owe
0:07:16.689,0:07:17.910
their parent anything.
0:07:17.910,0:07:19.860
There are certain experiences in
0:07:20.040,0:07:21.430
childhood that in some ways do
0:07:21.430,0:07:22.670
cancel out some of those feelings
0:07:22.670,0:07:24.139
of obligation.
0:07:24.139,0:07:25.000
But in the majority
0:07:25.019,0:07:26.670
of cases, I don't think that
0:07:26.670,0:07:28.709
constitutes the majority of cases.
0:07:28.709,0:07:30.120
And, and it is my wish that
0:07:30.279,0:07:32.379
people, you know, would grant a
0:07:32.379,0:07:33.089
parent a dying wish.
0:07:33.089,0:07:34.569
And sometimes a dying wish is
0:07:34.569,0:07:36.040
really to, um,
0:07:36.060,0:07:38.649
to make amends or to say that
0:07:38.649,0:07:39.279
they're sorry.
0:07:39.279,0:07:40.550
I mean, I don't know if you saw
0:07:40.550,0:07:41.800
Bruce Springsteen's,
0:07:41.910,0:07:44.740
um, um, uh, movie, but there was a
0:07:44.740,0:07:47.908
great scene in it where he, um,
0:07:47.908,0:07:49.800
the dad was kind of toward the end
0:07:49.819,0:07:51.050
of the dad's life.
0:07:51.050,0:07:52.670
I mean, his dad's wanted to
0:07:52.670,0:07:54.129
apologize to him for how abusive
0:07:54.129,0:07:55.160
he was when he
0:07:55.269,0:07:56.720
was younger, uh, cause the dad was
0:07:56.720,0:07:58.629
an alcoholic and he was abusive.
0:07:58.629,0:08:00.759
And, you know, Springsteen said
0:08:00.779,0:08:01.610
to him something like, well, you
0:08:01.610,0:08:03.120
were doing the best that you could
0:08:03.120,0:08:04.288
that I said, yeah, but it was
0:08:04.288,0:08:04.639
still
0:08:04.639,0:08:05.620
really wrong.
0:08:05.620,0:08:07.470
I mean, I think sometimes the
0:08:07.470,0:08:08.750
dying wish of the parent is
0:08:08.750,0:08:09.889
actually to make amends.
0:08:09.889,0:08:10.259
And I
0:08:10.259,0:08:11.829
think, um, that should be
0:08:11.829,0:08:13.110
something we as caregivers should
0:08:13.110,0:08:14.439
be supporting, not challenging.
0:08:14.459,0:08:18.079
I guess as long as we approach it
0:08:18.079,0:08:20.459
with radical acceptance and you
0:08:20.459,0:08:22.079
talk about that, uh, in your
0:08:22.240,0:08:24.439
book, and it's, it's an important
0:08:24.439,0:08:28.459
element of how you handle these
0:08:28.459,0:08:30.000
relationships in your role
0:08:30.110,0:08:32.379
and with the advice that you
0:08:32.379,0:08:32.759
provide.
0:08:32.759,0:08:33.860
So maybe it's important to get
0:08:33.860,0:08:35.220
that out right now, because I
0:08:35.220,0:08:37.250
think
approaching that end of life
0:08:37.250,0:08:39.389
encounter is important in terms of
0:08:39.389,0:08:40.480
how each side approaches
0:08:40.500,0:08:42.169
it, but radical acceptance is
0:08:42.169,0:08:43.340
really foundational.
0:08:43.340,0:08:44.349
So why don't we get that out to
0:08:44.349,0:08:44.849
the open?
0:08:44.889,0:08:46.539
Yeah.
0:08:46.539,0:08:49.289
Yes.
Radical acceptance is, um, it's
0:08:49.289,0:08:50.919
just an important orientation
0:08:50.919,0:08:51.600
towards happiness
0:08:51.710,0:08:53.059
in general.
0:08:53.059,0:08:54.929
And I think it, the first person
0:08:54.929,0:08:59.129
to coin the term was, um, um, am I
0:08:59.129,0:08:59.539
forgetting her
0:08:59.539,0:09:00.740
Tara Brack?
0:09:00.740,0:09:02.710
No, she went, she made it famous,
0:09:02.710,0:09:04.529
but it was actually the founder
0:09:04.529,0:09:05.759
of, uh, dialectical
0:09:05.919,0:09:07.179
behavior therapy.
0:09:07.179,0:09:07.779
It was her name.
0:09:07.779,0:09:09.059
I'm forgetting for some reason.
0:09:09.059,0:09:11.019
Um, but, but radical acceptance
0:09:11.129,0:09:13.190
has its roots in, in Buddhism.
0:09:13.190,0:09:14.950
And that is the idea that pain
0:09:14.950,0:09:16.590
plus struggle equals suffering.
0:09:16.590,0:09:18.960
The
more that we fight reality, uh,
0:09:18.960,0:09:20.990
the more we're going to suffer
0:09:20.990,0:09:22.909
because we can't really doing
0:09:22.909,0:09:23.320
anything
0:09:23.320,0:09:23.779
about it.
0:09:23.779,0:09:24.720
And we're just kind of pushing
0:09:24.720,0:09:26.299
ourselves towards some end that
0:09:26.299,0:09:27.950
can never be realized.
0:09:27.950,0:09:30.250
So
for Paris, you know, whose adult
0:09:30.250,0:09:31.950
children, whether it's end of life
0:09:31.950,0:09:33.360
or at some other point, aren't,
0:09:33.470,0:09:36.009
don't seem open to reconciliation.
0:09:36.009,0:09:37.799
Um, radical acceptance, if they've
0:09:37.799,0:09:39.799
tried everything is really
0:09:39.909,0:09:42.078
an important, um, orientation
0:09:42.078,0:09:44.639
because, um, otherwise they're
0:09:44.639,0:09:46.639
just, they're just constantly
0:09:46.639,0:09:47.000
fighting
0:09:47.000,0:09:48.480
against something that they, they
0:09:48.480,0:09:49.889
can't change or they have a kind
0:09:49.889,0:09:52.059
of a case of maladaptive hope
0:09:52.059,0:09:54.519
where
they, um, are really struggling
0:09:54.519,0:09:55.659
to, you know, they feel like they
0:09:55.659,0:09:57.100
can't live their lives until their
0:09:57.259,0:09:58.409
child comes back.
0:09:58.409,0:10:00.440
Um, and if you're the adult child
0:10:00.440,0:10:02.669
and you've had a really abusive or
0:10:02.669,0:10:03.000
difficult
0:10:03.000,0:10:05.019
parent or, or a parent that you
0:10:05.019,0:10:06.740
don't feel like you can reconcile
0:10:06.740,0:10:08.909
with radically accepting that the
0:10:09.120,0:10:10.370
parent may not change or may not
0:10:10.370,0:10:11.720
be able to change or that this is
0:10:11.720,0:10:13.429
kind of as good as it's going to
0:10:13.570,0:10:16.070
get, can also be better for your
0:10:16.070,0:10:17.480
mental health and constantly
0:10:17.480,0:10:18.669
struggling against those feelings
0:10:18.669,0:10:19.019
and
0:10:19.019,0:10:20.578
wishing it were otherwise and
0:10:20.578,0:10:21.919
being mad at the parent that they
0:10:21.919,0:10:23.159
didn't give you what you wanted
0:10:23.179,0:10:25.879
or needed or that kind of thing.
0:10:25.879,0:10:28.009
I think that points to the fact
0:10:28.009,0:10:29.710
that it does come from both sides
0:10:29.710,0:10:31.559
and
the parent needs to approach an
0:10:31.559,0:10:35.590
attempt at, um, reconciliation
0:10:35.590,0:10:37.759
with a certain mindset as does
0:10:37.779,0:10:43.068
a child and, um, perhaps putting
0:10:43.068,0:10:44.649
all of that hope aside for
0:10:44.649,0:10:47.190
immediate change, uh, because it's
0:10:47.190,0:10:49.330
probably
not going to happen, but it could
0:10:49.330,0:10:51.389
still be fueled with acceptance
0:10:51.389,0:10:54.220
for compassion in those final days
0:10:54.240,0:10:55.620
or months.
0:10:55.620,0:10:56.049
Yeah.
0:10:56.049,0:10:57.620
So do adult children, sorry, go
0:10:57.620,0:10:58.220
ahead.
0:10:58.220,0:10:59.159
No, no, I was just, just going to
0:10:59.159,0:10:59.659
agree with you.
0:10:59.720,0:11:01.090
Right.
0:11:01.090,0:11:02.559
Do adult children owe their
0:11:02.559,0:11:04.289
parents' care simply because they
0:11:04.289,0:11:05.899
gave them life or does the
0:11:06.059,0:11:07.440
quality of the relationship
0:11:07.440,0:11:09.009
matter?
0:11:09.009,0:11:11.519
It's an important question.
0:11:11.519,0:11:12.320
You know, it depends what
0:11:12.460,0:11:15.568
care means, you know, does, does a
0:11:15.568,0:11:16.889
adult child whose parent was
0:11:16.889,0:11:18.080
abusive and neglectful to them
0:11:18.259,0:11:19.309
throughout their lives, are they
0:11:19.309,0:11:20.980
obligated to bring that parent
0:11:20.980,0:11:22.379
into their home and take care of
0:11:22.379,0:11:25.000
them
just because they're sick or
0:11:25.000,0:11:25.429
fading?
0:11:25.429,0:11:26.559
In some cultures, the answer would
0:11:26.559,0:11:27.318
be yes.
0:11:27.318,0:11:28.570
Um, but I'm an American
0:11:28.740,0:11:30.120
and I don't think that that, that
0:11:30.120,0:11:32.169
is the case that, that a parent
0:11:32.169,0:11:34.120
who's been abusive or neglectful
0:11:34.279,0:11:36.950
throughout a child's life that the
0:11:36.950,0:11:39.740
child is obligated to, um, to take
0:11:39.740,0:11:40.919
care of them.
0:11:40.919,0:11:41.320
But,
0:11:41.320,0:11:42.720
but I do think that there's some
0:11:42.720,0:11:45.470
obligation to at least express
0:11:45.470,0:11:47.549
some degree of concern.
0:11:47.549,0:11:49.509
You know,
I think that in the same way that
0:11:49.509,0:11:50.818
adult children who are estranging
0:11:50.818,0:11:51.789
themselves are doing the best that
0:11:51.940,0:11:54.568
they can in terms of having the,
0:11:54.568,0:11:56.539
you know, having a life without
0:11:56.539,0:11:57.720
their parent that they feel like
0:11:57.830,0:11:58.940
they need to do for their own
0:11:58.940,0:12:00.269
happiness and mental health.
0:12:00.269,0:12:01.429
I think parents do the best that
0:12:01.429,0:12:01.929
they can
0:12:01.960,0:12:03.049
when they're raising their
0:12:03.049,0:12:03.399
children.
0:12:03.399,0:12:05.570
I mean, even abusive parents, um,
0:12:05.570,0:12:06.649
nobody sets out, wakes up in
0:12:06.679,0:12:07.578
the morning and thinks I'm going
0:12:07.578,0:12:09.059
to go abuse my parents or I'm
0:12:09.059,0:12:10.240
going to go, my children rather,
0:12:10.240,0:12:11.318
I'm going to go give them a
0:12:11.318,0:12:12.578
miserable life.
0:12:12.578,0:12:13.929
So, I mean, I think everybody
0:12:13.929,0:12:14.759
deserves compassion,
0:12:14.899,0:12:17.100
but it's not necessarily realistic
0:12:17.100,0:12:19.509
to expect that the victims of that
0:12:19.509,0:12:22.519
abuse are going to, um, uh,
0:12:22.679,0:12:24.090
feel compassionate.
0:12:24.090,0:12:25.970
But then we get into the topic of
0:12:25.970,0:12:27.389
what constitutes abuse.
0:12:27.389,0:12:28.220
And I think as a culture
0:12:28.330,0:12:29.690
and as a society, we're very
0:12:29.690,0:12:30.620
confused about that.
0:12:30.620,0:12:32.440
I think a lot of parents are
0:12:32.440,0:12:33.279
getting estranged today
0:12:33.389,0:12:35.049
for behaviors that their adult
0:12:35.049,0:12:36.600
children are labeling as abusive.
0:12:36.600,0:12:38.100
That's just kind of normal
0:12:38.100,0:12:38.820
conflict or
0:12:38.980,0:12:41.120
disappointment or character flaws
0:12:41.120,0:12:42.960
or mistakes and the like.
0:12:42.960,0:12:45.519
And so, um, you know, to visit a
0:12:45.519,0:12:45.840
parent
0:12:45.840,0:12:47.480
upon a parent, the nightmare of
0:12:47.480,0:12:50.078
estrangement, um, because of
0:12:50.078,0:12:52.389
something that should be greeted
0:12:52.389,0:12:54.830
with
a bit more empathy or resilience,
0:12:54.830,0:12:55.909
I think is a problem in our
0:12:55.909,0:12:56.519
current society.
0:12:56.700,0:12:59.659
Well, I think that, uh, yeah,
0:12:59.659,0:13:01.639
probably, you know, big, big T
0:13:01.639,0:13:03.100
trauma and little T trauma are
0:13:03.100,0:13:03.429
important
0:13:03.429,0:13:05.190
to, to distinguish as, and you
0:13:05.190,0:13:08.078
know, big V victim and little V
0:13:08.078,0:13:08.500
victim.
0:13:08.500,0:13:09.980
If he, if, you know,
0:13:10.120,0:13:10.470
right.
0:13:10.470,0:13:12.059
Victim is going to be used as a
0:13:12.059,0:13:13.159
term in this case, because it's,
0:13:13.159,0:13:14.500
it's, it's, it's a slippery slope
0:13:14.629,0:13:15.849
and I think we're seeing it and it
0:13:15.849,0:13:17.600
probably fuels some of that toxic
0:13:17.600,0:13:19.019
individuation that we're, we're
0:13:19.019,0:13:21.460
now
seeing, uh, that enters the
0:13:21.460,0:13:22.809
equation, which may just fuel
0:13:22.809,0:13:24.039
estrangement even more.
0:13:24.200,0:13:25.269
Yeah.
0:13:26.580,0:13:29.068
When the parent was emotionally
0:13:29.068,0:13:31.559
neglectful or absent or abusive or
0:13:31.559,0:13:32.860
unsafe, how does that change
0:13:33.000,0:13:35.568
what care, if any, an adult child
0:13:35.568,0:13:37.259
should be responsible for?
0:13:37.279,0:13:40.730
I mean, it's, it's hard to have
0:13:40.730,0:13:42.409
this tell you what I think in
0:13:42.409,0:13:43.860
terms of being our American
0:13:44.019,0:13:46.240
state of individualism.
0:13:46.240,0:13:48.068
So I'll answer this kind of the
0:13:48.068,0:13:50.250
way I think about it broadly in a
0:13:50.250,0:13:52.100
way that
I don't think finds a lot of
0:13:52.100,0:13:53.318
resonance in American, you know,
0:13:53.318,0:13:55.179
in our culture, we have like the
0:13:55.179,0:13:57.840
highest
rates of individualism than any
0:13:57.840,0:14:00.159
other society in the world.
0:14:00.159,0:14:01.480
And, and individualistic culture,
0:14:01.620,0:14:03.340
your primary orientation is
0:14:03.340,0:14:04.470
towards your own happiness, your
0:14:04.470,0:14:05.610
own identity, your personal,
0:14:05.759,0:14:07.580
your psychological health, your
0:14:07.580,0:14:10.059
boundaries, um, et cetera.
0:14:10.059,0:14:11.860
And the idea that you owe your
0:14:11.860,0:14:12.220
parents
0:14:12.220,0:14:15.929
something is completely, is, is
0:14:15.929,0:14:17.350
completely secondary or even
0:14:17.350,0:14:19.419
tertiary to those, those
0:14:19.419,0:14:19.919
aspirations.
0:14:20.210,0:14:23.779
So from my perspective, you know,
0:14:23.779,0:14:26.279
somebody who gave somebody, um,
0:14:26.279,0:14:27.509
birth, if the person wouldn't be
0:14:27.509,0:14:29.470
in
this world or wouldn't have their
0:14:29.470,0:14:32.049
own children, um, I do think that,
0:14:32.049,0:14:33.360
that there are obligations
0:14:33.450,0:14:34.710
to that parent.
0:14:34.710,0:14:36.750
Are there obligations to them sort
0:14:36.750,0:14:39.250
of forever or no matter what, or
0:14:39.250,0:14:39.860
does they have to
0:14:40.019,0:14:42.350
accept all of the terms that the
0:14:42.350,0:14:43.909
parent wants or be as available to
0:14:43.909,0:14:44.419
them?
0:14:44.419,0:14:45.639
No, not at all.
0:14:45.639,0:14:46.139
But I do think
0:14:46.179,0:14:47.960
that they're obligated to at least
0:14:47.960,0:14:49.639
give the parent an audience, the
0:14:49.639,0:14:51.090
availability to repair, to
0:14:51.090,0:14:51.480
understand
0:14:51.480,0:14:52.769
the parent, to be forgiving
0:14:52.769,0:14:54.919
towards the things that they were,
0:14:54.919,0:14:58.990
um, even abusive about, um, at
0:14:58.990,0:14:59.340
some
0:14:59.340,0:15:00.190
point.
0:15:00.190,0:15:03.960
But in order to be, um, able to
0:15:03.960,0:15:05.639
forgive somebody or tolerate a
0:15:05.639,0:15:06.610
relationship where there was
0:15:06.759,0:15:08.860
abuse, you have to be completely
0:15:08.860,0:15:10.220
clear that you didn't deserve it
0:15:10.220,0:15:11.009
in the first place.
0:15:11.009,0:15:11.460
And that's,
0:15:11.460,0:15:12.450
you know, that's a big reach for
0:15:12.450,0:15:14.169
most people.
0:15:14.169,0:15:17.009
It seems once again, like, um,
0:15:17.009,0:15:17.879
it's just that sort
0:15:18.009,0:15:22.610
of dichotomy between sort of
0:15:22.610,0:15:24.659
establishing self-compassionate
0:15:24.659,0:15:26.720
boundaries, uh, which allow
0:15:26.830,0:15:28.490
you to care give for someone where
0:15:28.490,0:15:29.960
they have to acknowledge that
0:15:29.960,0:15:31.190
maybe they didn't rise to the
0:15:31.389,0:15:32.710
occasion like you would have hoped
0:15:32.710,0:15:36.149
as a parent versus ideologically
0:15:36.149,0:15:37.639
inspired boundaries, which
0:15:37.779,0:15:41.450
are just immobile and entrenched
0:15:41.450,0:15:43.590
and make no room and probably feel
0:15:43.590,0:15:44.159
more suffering.
0:15:44.299,0:15:46.299
Yeah, absolutely.
0:15:46.299,0:15:48.328
Yeah.
I think that, that we're just,
0:15:48.328,0:15:49.600
we're very confused about the
0:15:49.600,0:15:50.340
notion even of,
0:15:50.360,0:15:51.480
of boundaries.
0:15:51.480,0:15:53.240
And again, I think it goes to
0:15:53.240,0:15:55.480
being an individualistic, in an
0:15:55.480,0:15:56.980
individualistic culture where
0:15:57.120,0:15:58.679
our own happiness is so
0:15:58.679,0:16:00.549
prioritized because in other
0:16:00.549,0:16:03.100
cultures where individualism
0:16:03.100,0:16:04.409
isn't, uh, as much the
0:16:04.620,0:16:05.789
orientation where group
0:16:05.789,0:16:07.990
membership, um, is much more the
0:16:07.990,0:16:10.590
orientation where sociality is
0:16:10.590,0:16:11.090
more the
0:16:11.139,0:16:12.490
definition of happiness.
0:16:12.490,0:16:13.990
Those cultures generally are
0:16:13.990,0:16:16.440
happier and doing better than in
0:16:16.440,0:16:16.940
societies like
0:16:17.090,0:16:18.440
ours, where we have record high
0:16:18.440,0:16:19.389
rates of mental illness.
0:16:19.389,0:16:20.850
And it's in part because we're all
0:16:20.850,0:16:22.879
just
sort of so preoccupied with our
0:16:22.879,0:16:24.169
own boundaries and personal
0:16:24.169,0:16:25.519
happiness and mental health and
0:16:25.519,0:16:25.860
personal
0:16:25.860,0:16:27.490
growth, uh, that we're not
0:16:27.490,0:16:29.850
actually attending to the people
0:16:29.850,0:16:32.279
that, um, could either both,
0:16:32.389,0:16:34.379
who gave us life, but also who
0:16:34.379,0:16:35.759
could connect with us and give us
0:16:35.759,0:16:37.789
other sources of value and meaning
0:16:37.789,0:16:38.120
and
0:16:38.120,0:16:39.679
purpose and identity.
0:16:39.679,0:16:41.730
So for example, for a large
0:16:41.730,0:16:42.818
percentage of adult children, when
0:16:42.818,0:16:43.318
they cut off
0:16:43.340,0:16:45.159
contact with a parent, they also
0:16:45.159,0:16:46.279
cut off access to the
0:16:46.279,0:16:46.769
grandchildren.
0:16:46.769,0:16:47.820
And these are often grandparents
0:16:47.929,0:16:50.539
who are very loving and involved.
0:16:50.539,0:16:52.179
And the narrative is often, well,
0:16:52.179,0:16:53.200
if it's not good for me, it's not
0:16:53.340,0:16:54.409
good for my kids.
0:16:54.409,0:16:55.710
And yeah, if you're, if the
0:16:55.710,0:16:57.370
grandparents really, you know,
0:16:57.370,0:16:57.870
every time they come
0:16:58.019,0:16:59.370
over, they're out of control and
0:16:59.370,0:17:01.000
they're screaming at everybody and
0:17:01.000,0:17:02.399
humiliating them and communicating
0:17:02.580,0:17:05.848
terribly, um, then that probably
0:17:05.848,0:17:07.009
isn't good for anybody.
0:17:07.009,0:17:08.309
But there's plenty of grandparents
0:17:08.309,0:17:10.059
who
are excellent as grandparents and
0:17:10.059,0:17:11.059
there's conflict between the
0:17:11.059,0:17:12.069
parent and adult child as they're
0:17:12.069,0:17:13.650
not
infrequently is.
0:17:13.650,0:17:15.150
And this idea that if it doesn't
0:17:15.150,0:17:16.210
make the parent happy, it's not
0:17:16.210,0:17:16.720
going to make their
0:17:16.859,0:17:17.420
kids happy.
0:17:17.420,0:17:19.500
I just think it's a faulty idea.
0:17:19.500,0:17:20.868
And I think it's just also
0:17:20.868,0:17:22.140
removing one more layer,
0:17:22.940,0:17:25.029
relational layer of identity and
0:17:25.029,0:17:27.559
purpose and support from those
0:17:27.559,0:17:28.750
grandchildren that they could
0:17:28.900,0:17:29.519
have.
0:17:29.519,0:17:30.619
Otherwise, because grandparents
0:17:30.619,0:17:32.769
can provide a whole lot of value,
0:17:32.769,0:17:34.160
even if there's conflict and
0:17:34.240,0:17:35.690
dissonance in the relationship
0:17:35.690,0:17:36.700
between the parent and the adult
0:17:36.700,0:17:37.079
child.
0:17:37.079,0:17:39.380
There's something special about
0:17:39.380,0:17:41.619
that next generational love that
0:17:41.619,0:17:43.109
you feel as a child from a
0:17:43.109,0:17:43.609
grandparent,
0:17:43.660,0:17:45.700
which is almost intangible, but
0:17:45.700,0:17:46.900
it's just so felt.
0:17:47.660,0:17:48.880
It is intangible.
0:17:48.880,0:17:50.099
I've been thinking about that a
0:17:50.099,0:17:52.309
lot myself, that there's kind of a
0:17:52.309,0:17:53.039
quality of shared
0:17:53.259,0:17:55.430
innocence and it's not, it's kind
0:17:55.430,0:17:57.839
of a role where not a lot is
0:17:57.839,0:17:59.029
demanded of either.
0:17:59.029,0:18:00.529
You know, the goal of
0:18:00.700,0:18:02.799
the grandparent is just to be,
0:18:02.799,0:18:04.720
spend time with the grandchild and
0:18:04.720,0:18:06.039
take pleasure in them.
0:18:06.039,0:18:06.630
And, you know,
0:18:06.789,0:18:08.109
the goal of the grandchild is just
0:18:08.109,0:18:10.150
take pleasure in being a, being a
0:18:10.150,0:18:10.720
child.
0:18:10.720,0:18:11.799
And there's a shared innocence
0:18:11.990,0:18:13.599
vulnerability there that, you
0:18:13.599,0:18:14.638
know, when we're parents raising
0:18:14.638,0:18:16.329
our children, you know, we, we can
0:18:16.519,0:18:17.650
participate in that some of the
0:18:17.650,0:18:18.880
time, but we also have to get our
0:18:18.880,0:18:20.759
kids dressed into school and make
0:18:20.900,0:18:22.549
sure they do their homework and
0:18:22.549,0:18:23.579
clean their rooms.
0:18:23.579,0:18:24.529
There's a lot of it.
0:18:24.529,0:18:25.569
It's just more of a headache
0:18:25.720,0:18:26.339
than a pleasure.
0:18:26.339,0:18:27.450
But when you're a grandparent, I
0:18:27.450,0:18:29.539
mean, it's ideally, at least it
0:18:29.539,0:18:30.740
can be a much more
0:18:30.880,0:18:32.349
purely pleasurable enterprise for
0:18:32.349,0:18:32.920
both parties.
0:18:33.819,0:18:36.950
Yeah, I think it was, um, I think
0:18:36.950,0:18:38.299
it was Arthur Brooks who's
0:18:38.299,0:18:39.440
recently mentioned that his love
0:18:39.440,0:18:39.819
of his
0:18:39.819,0:18:41.230
grandchildren, the fun times he
0:18:41.230,0:18:42.670
has, uh, with them and getting
0:18:42.670,0:18:44.138
them fired up, telling jokes,
0:18:44.138,0:18:44.450
making them
0:18:44.450,0:18:44.970
giggle.
0:18:44.970,0:18:47.019
And that's, that's good as it
0:18:47.019,0:18:47.359
gets.
0:18:47.359,0:18:48.579
Yeah, absolutely.
0:18:48.579,0:18:49.220
I totally agree.
0:18:49.359,0:18:53.529
So can an adult child help make
0:18:53.529,0:18:55.700
sure a parent is cared for without
0:18:55.700,0:18:58.119
actually reopening the
0:18:58.279,0:18:59.839
relationship emotionally?
0:19:01.039,0:19:02.089
Well, I think that's the
0:19:02.089,0:19:03.450
aspiration of a lot of adult
0:19:03.450,0:19:03.769
children.
0:19:03.769,0:19:05.809
So I've worked with some who
0:19:06.000,0:19:07.779
were either estranged or, you
0:19:07.779,0:19:09.299
know, could be estranged during
0:19:09.299,0:19:10.388
conflict with a parent.
0:19:10.388,0:19:10.839
And they
0:19:10.839,0:19:11.839
said, look, I don't want to
0:19:11.839,0:19:12.759
revisit the past.
0:19:12.759,0:19:14.799
I don't want to go through that or
0:19:14.799,0:19:15.420
litigate every
0:19:15.579,0:19:16.519
complaint that you made.
0:19:16.519,0:19:18.460
Let's just kind of go forward.
0:19:18.460,0:19:19.619
And that's often the wish of the
0:19:19.619,0:19:20.720
parents
as well.
0:19:20.720,0:19:22.390
So it really depends on the, on
0:19:22.390,0:19:23.009
the individual.
0:19:23.009,0:19:24.839
For some people, they just really
0:19:24.839,0:19:26.950
need
to feel heard and understood by
0:19:26.950,0:19:28.049
the parent in terms of the ways
0:19:28.049,0:19:29.759
that they felt hurt or traumatized
0:19:29.779,0:19:31.750
or neglected or abused in order
0:19:31.750,0:19:33.589
for there to be any, any way to go
0:19:33.589,0:19:34.240
forward.
0:19:34.240,0:19:34.960
Uh, that's not true
0:19:34.980,0:19:36.000
for everybody.
0:19:36.000,0:19:36.720
It's probably true for the
0:19:36.720,0:19:38.089
majority, I would say.
0:19:38.089,0:19:39.650
Um, but, but, but not in other
0:19:39.650,0:19:39.990
cultures.
0:19:39.990,0:19:40.519
I mean, I think we have
0:19:40.539,0:19:42.470
to keep kind of circling back to,
0:19:42.470,0:19:43.720
well, there's a lot of other
0:19:43.720,0:19:45.230
cultures where parents are, you
0:19:45.230,0:19:45.799
know, really
0:19:45.960,0:19:48.138
abusive or difficult or neglectful
0:19:48.138,0:19:48.920
or whatever.
0:19:48.920,0:19:51.559
And the kids, adult children find
0:19:51.559,0:19:52.420
a way to be in contact
0:19:52.559,0:19:52.880
with them.
0:19:52.880,0:19:54.319
But it's partially because
0:19:54.319,0:19:56.980
families as a system are viewed in
0:19:56.980,0:19:57.619
a much more integrated
0:19:57.779,0:19:58.900
integrated way.
0:19:58.900,0:20:00.388
I have a friend who's Indian,
0:20:00.388,0:20:01.839
South Asian, and she said, you
0:20:01.839,0:20:02.819
know, in India, we don't have
0:20:02.960,0:20:04.650
this notion of extended family.
0:20:04.650,0:20:05.940
It's just family.
0:20:05.940,0:20:07.619
And I think that changes things
0:20:07.619,0:20:08.039
too.
0:20:08.039,0:20:08.470
I mean, if you
0:20:08.470,0:20:10.309
cut out your parent, typically
0:20:10.309,0:20:11.940
it's a cataclysmic event in the
0:20:11.940,0:20:13.700
family system and other, there's
0:20:13.859,0:20:15.299
downstream effects where other
0:20:15.299,0:20:16.259
people are not going to be cut
0:20:16.259,0:20:16.609
off.
0:20:16.609,0:20:17.660
Cousins are going to be cut off,
0:20:17.700,0:20:18.559
et cetera.
0:20:18.559,0:20:20.200
So in other cultures, they just
0:20:20.200,0:20:21.380
sort of accept it.
0:20:21.380,0:20:22.089
Oh, is that good?
0:20:22.089,0:20:22.569
No, of course,
0:20:22.569,0:20:24.920
it's not good that, you know, a
0:20:24.920,0:20:26.839
parent who is abusive is not being
0:20:26.839,0:20:29.640
held to task, but we're a
0:20:29.799,0:20:31.049
little naive as a culture in terms
0:20:31.049,0:20:33.170
of all the consequences of
0:20:33.170,0:20:34.099
estrangement to the rest of the
0:20:34.259,0:20:36.089
family system that follows from
0:20:36.089,0:20:38.240
that.
0:20:38.240,0:20:41.269
So what are adult children truly
0:20:41.269,0:20:42.829
trying to resolve inside of
0:20:43.049,0:20:44.920
themselves when they step into the
0:20:44.920,0:20:46.750
role of caregiving for a parent
0:20:46.750,0:20:48.079
who hurt them along the way?
0:20:50.940,0:20:52.869
Well, it's a challenge because
0:20:52.869,0:20:55.940
they have to have the capacity to
0:20:55.940,0:20:58.880
forgive the parent and perhaps
0:20:59.029,0:21:00.769
be giving to the parent in ways
0:21:00.769,0:21:03.710
that the parent was never given to
0:21:03.710,0:21:04.130
them.
0:21:04.130,0:21:04.880
So I want to highlight
0:21:05.099,0:21:07.490
that that's not some easy task.
0:21:07.490,0:21:09.309
And while I can sort of wish from
0:21:09.309,0:21:11.480
20,000 feet above that everybody
0:21:11.619,0:21:12.750
could do that, I think it's
0:21:12.750,0:21:14.490
probably really hard to do that,
0:21:14.490,0:21:16.000
particularly if the parent was
0:21:16.000,0:21:16.740
cruel or
0:21:16.920,0:21:19.349
neglectful or really damaged you
0:21:19.349,0:21:20.039
as a person.
0:21:20.039,0:21:21.740
I mean, it would take a fairly
0:21:21.740,0:21:23.319
healthy, psychologically
0:21:23.480,0:21:27.029
healthy person to be able to put
0:21:27.029,0:21:29.230
aside those feelings of grievance
0:21:29.230,0:21:30.660
and hurt to be able to
0:21:30.799,0:21:32.400
take care of the parent.
0:21:32.400,0:21:34.779
But some people do manage to do
0:21:34.779,0:21:35.279
it.
0:21:36.380,0:21:38.519
So in your studies and experience,
0:21:38.519,0:21:40.279
can caregiving ever soften a
0:21:40.279,0:21:42.019
parent or repair something in the
0:21:42.180,0:21:42.940
relationship?
0:21:42.940,0:21:46.150
Or is that usually a fantasy that
0:21:46.150,0:21:48.039
adult children carry with them
0:21:48.039,0:21:48.700
into caregiving?
0:21:50.000,0:21:51.289
No, I think for some it really
0:21:51.289,0:21:51.650
can.
0:21:51.650,0:21:54.449
And I think as parents get older,
0:21:54.449,0:21:56.049
they may become more reflective or
0:21:56.200,0:21:58.009
just softer or less defensive.
0:21:58.009,0:21:59.569
And if there was a period of
0:21:59.569,0:22:01.690
estrangement, it may have woken
0:22:01.690,0:22:02.079
them up
0:22:02.079,0:22:03.509
in some ways where they can now
0:22:03.509,0:22:05.638
feel like, oh, gee, I really
0:22:05.638,0:22:07.789
wasn't taking something seriously
0:22:07.789,0:22:08.240
that I
0:22:08.240,0:22:10.359
really needed to take seriously in
0:22:10.359,0:22:13.000
terms of how I was interacting
0:22:13.000,0:22:13.970
with my child.
0:22:13.970,0:22:15.359
So I think that for some,
0:22:15.450,0:22:18.339
it really can soften them and get
0:22:18.339,0:22:19.940
them to look at themselves
0:22:19.940,0:22:21.049
differently and how they treated
0:22:21.049,0:22:21.819
their
child differently.
0:22:21.980,0:22:25.579
Seems like that first conversation
0:22:25.579,0:22:27.839
as that re-engagement begins is
0:22:27.839,0:22:29.619
probably so important just to sort
0:22:29.619,0:22:31.730
of
establish some terms of reference.
0:22:31.730,0:22:35.119
What are the most important ground
0:22:35.119,0:22:37.119
rules that you've witnessed that
0:22:37.119,0:22:38.819
you
might advise individuals who are
0:22:38.819,0:22:41.730
contemplating breaking that
0:22:41.730,0:22:43.049
barrier and no longer being
0:22:43.049,0:22:43.509
estranged,
0:22:43.509,0:22:45.199
but rather trying to unite again,
0:22:45.199,0:22:46.619
especially as caregiving calls?
0:22:46.759,0:22:50.000
I mean, ideally, the parent's
0:22:50.000,0:22:52.159
taking the lead in terms of making
0:22:52.159,0:22:52.890
amends.
0:22:52.890,0:22:53.680
I mean, in general,
0:22:53.839,0:22:58.069
that's my recommendation and my
0:22:58.069,0:22:59.359
belief because, you know, as
0:22:59.359,0:23:00.680
parents, I do think the buck stops
0:23:00.859,0:23:02.180
with us.
0:23:02.180,0:23:04.240
And while I think we as a society
0:23:04.240,0:23:05.839
or other people can feel
0:23:05.839,0:23:06.869
compassion for a parent's
0:23:06.869,0:23:08.589
mistakes,
I don't think it's ever
0:23:08.589,0:23:09.720
appropriate for the parent to just
0:23:09.720,0:23:10.680
say, oh, I did the best I could,
0:23:10.700,0:23:12.059
so you should forgive me.
0:23:12.059,0:23:14.079
I think parents have to actually
0:23:14.079,0:23:15.880
put some work and time and effort
0:23:15.880,0:23:16.220
into
0:23:16.220,0:23:17.970
taking responsibility and showing
0:23:17.970,0:23:19.490
empathy and compassion for the
0:23:19.490,0:23:21.259
ways that their mistakes or
0:23:21.420,0:23:22.910
abuses or whatever it was
0:23:22.910,0:23:25.659
negatively impacted their child.
0:23:25.659,0:23:27.730
So I think if a parent is able to
0:23:27.730,0:23:28.140
do that,
0:23:28.140,0:23:29.839
I think it certainly would free up
0:23:29.839,0:23:31.970
that potentially caregiving adult
0:23:31.970,0:23:34.240
child to feel more open to do it
0:23:34.240,0:23:34.579
and more
0:23:34.579,0:23:36.859
receptive to the idea of doing it.
0:23:36.859,0:23:38.190
But let's say that they can't or
0:23:38.190,0:23:40.900
they won't, then the adult child,
0:23:40.900,0:23:42.888
I guess, has to decide whether
0:23:42.888,0:23:44.210
they need to have that tough
0:23:44.210,0:23:45.390
conversation with the parent
0:23:45.390,0:23:45.880
first.
0:23:45.880,0:23:47.220
Some adult children might feel
0:23:47.220,0:23:50.539
like, well, you know, I'm going to
0:23:50.539,0:23:52.059
be more involved in taking care of
0:23:52.059,0:23:52.470
my parent,
0:23:52.470,0:23:53.909
but first they need to hear for
0:23:53.909,0:23:56.230
the first time all the ways that I
0:23:56.230,0:23:58.359
felt really let down or hurt or
0:23:58.359,0:23:58.980
abused by them
0:23:59.140,0:24:00.809
because I can't do this unless
0:24:00.809,0:24:02.500
they hear it.
0:24:02.500,0:24:04.109
And I think if that's the case,
0:24:04.109,0:24:05.079
then you want to be clear
0:24:05.240,0:24:06.490
about why you're saying it, but
0:24:06.490,0:24:07.659
you're not raising it to just
0:24:07.659,0:24:08.950
shame or abuse or hurt your
0:24:08.950,0:24:09.279
parent,
0:24:09.279,0:24:11.529
that you're saying it in order to
0:24:11.529,0:24:12.990
be closer, to have them understand
0:24:12.990,0:24:14.180
something important about you,
0:24:14.319,0:24:16.029
that if there's something positive
0:24:16.029,0:24:19.759
about the parent that you got from
0:24:19.759,0:24:21.500
them,
to start with that, just to make
0:24:21.500,0:24:23.269
it clear that you're not raising
0:24:23.269,0:24:25.059
it to hurt and shame and humiliate
0:24:25.059,0:24:27.429
them,
and then talk about it.
0:24:27.429,0:24:28.690
And ideally to talk about what
0:24:28.690,0:24:30.509
your complaints are, not from a
0:24:30.509,0:24:31.779
perspective of being a
0:24:31.960,0:24:33.359
character flaw in the parent, but
0:24:33.359,0:24:35.599
really how their behavior impacted
0:24:35.599,0:24:36.839
you.
So rather than saying you were
0:24:36.839,0:24:38.759
selfish,
you were mean, you were cruel, you
0:24:38.759,0:24:40.829
know, when you did X, I felt Y,
0:24:40.829,0:24:41.460
that kind of thing.
0:24:43.220,0:24:44.900
It seems like those important
0:24:44.900,0:24:46.579
conversations may actually pay off
0:24:46.579,0:24:49.579
in that they enable the caregiver
0:24:49.670,0:24:51.980
to actually care give meaningfully
0:24:51.980,0:24:55.980
within a boundary that's
0:24:55.980,0:24:58.909
compassionate and that's
0:24:58.909,0:25:00.559
beneficial for both
0:25:00.579,0:25:02.369
in terms of the repair process.
0:25:02.490,0:25:03.319
Yeah, absolutely.
0:25:04.200,0:25:06.950
What does a healthy caregiving
0:25:06.950,0:25:08.490
boundary look like with a parent
0:25:08.490,0:25:09.589
who's been harmful?
0:25:09.589,0:25:10.990
I think a lot of individuals now
0:25:10.990,0:25:12.180
hear,
oh, I've got to set boundaries,
0:25:12.180,0:25:13.769
I've got to set boundaries, but
0:25:13.769,0:25:15.809
there's boundaries and then
0:25:15.809,0:25:16.759
there's healthy boundaries.
0:25:16.900,0:25:18.630
And if we're committed to
0:25:18.630,0:25:24.240
caregiving and providing some, you
0:25:24.240,0:25:26.579
know, meaningful tools for our
0:25:26.579,0:25:26.900
listeners,
0:25:26.900,0:25:28.650
they have to understand
0:25:28.650,0:25:29.279
boundaries.
0:25:29.279,0:25:31.359
So what does a healthy boundary
0:25:31.359,0:25:31.859
look like?
0:25:32.930,0:25:34.880
I mean, boundaries in general
0:25:34.880,0:25:36.710
should be set with a certain
0:25:36.710,0:25:39.799
degree of gentleness because the
0:25:39.799,0:25:42.200
person
who's receiving the boundaries in
0:25:42.200,0:25:43.909
general could feel humiliated by
0:25:43.909,0:25:45.259
them or shamed by them or
0:25:45.400,0:25:47.849
reproached or rejected because a
0:25:47.849,0:25:49.579
boundary, you know, usually for
0:25:49.579,0:25:51.109
expressing a boundary, there's a
0:25:51.109,0:25:52.009
complaint
in it.
0:25:52.009,0:25:53.079
We don't usually express a
0:25:53.079,0:25:53.960
boundary unless there's an
0:25:53.960,0:25:55.380
underlying complaint that
0:25:55.380,0:25:55.960
necessitates
0:25:56.069,0:25:57.480
the boundary.
0:25:57.480,0:26:00.480
So, um, so ideally putting it in a
0:26:00.480,0:26:02.159
language that sounds kind of
0:26:02.159,0:26:02.659
minimally
0:26:02.759,0:26:06.970
rejecting or offensive or, uh, you
0:26:06.970,0:26:08.200
know, that kind of thing.
0:26:08.339,0:26:09.960
Being clear about what you're
0:26:09.960,0:26:10.769
willing to do and what you're not
0:26:10.769,0:26:11.269
willing to do.
0:26:11.380,0:26:12.509
Okay, I'm willing to come over
0:26:12.509,0:26:14.589
once a week and do this, um, but
0:26:14.589,0:26:16.519
I'm not available for phone calls
0:26:16.519,0:26:17.019
during the week
0:26:17.059,0:26:18.839
or I'm only available for two
0:26:18.839,0:26:19.890
phone calls during the week.
0:26:19.920,0:26:20.940
I can come for an hour.
0:26:20.940,0:26:21.990
I can't come from three hours.
0:26:21.990,0:26:24.650
I'm not, I am not able to, to just
0:26:24.650,0:26:25.440
do overnights
0:26:25.619,0:26:27.039
with you.
0:26:27.039,0:26:28.700
Um, you know, I can bring the
0:26:28.700,0:26:30.720
grandchildren over once a month,
0:26:30.720,0:26:32.259
whatever it is, kind of know your
0:26:32.420,0:26:35.380
limits, um, and, and be responsive
0:26:35.380,0:26:36.779
to those because if you don't,
0:26:36.779,0:26:38.200
then you'll, you might just feel
0:26:38.200,0:26:39.638
too
resentful to do anything.
0:26:39.638,0:26:41.109
So you're better off coming in
0:26:41.109,0:26:43.130
with, you know, an excess of
0:26:43.130,0:26:45.019
boundaries.
If it's just the only way you can
0:26:45.019,0:26:46.339
give to the parents something that
0:26:46.339,0:26:47.400
you know that they, they need
0:26:47.539,0:26:49.659
and you want to give to them, um,
0:26:49.659,0:26:51.769
then coming in with too, too much
0:26:51.769,0:26:53.200
ambition in terms of trying to
0:26:53.200,0:26:54.650
make
them happy in ways, it's just
0:26:54.650,0:26:55.779
going to burn you out if they're
0:26:55.779,0:26:56.440
not responsive.
0:26:56.579,0:26:59.150
What I hear and what you're saying
0:26:59.150,0:27:01.930
is really that as caregivers
0:27:01.930,0:27:03.710
re-entering, there is a place to
0:27:03.900,0:27:05.440
establish your personal rationale
0:27:05.440,0:27:07.150
for being there and what will
0:27:07.150,0:27:08.460
allow you to maintain your
0:27:08.460,0:27:08.859
personal
0:27:08.859,0:27:10.549
health while re-engaging in a
0:27:10.549,0:27:12.539
caregiving role for someone where
0:27:12.539,0:27:14.200
that relationship has been
0:27:14.200,0:27:14.700
strained.
0:27:14.759,0:27:15.440
Absolutely.
0:27:15.470,0:27:17.490
I mean, how do you know when
0:27:17.490,0:27:18.880
caregiving for a parent is
0:27:18.880,0:27:20.230
actually pulling you back though
0:27:20.230,0:27:21.059
into that same
0:27:21.200,0:27:22.849
role that caused the estrangement
0:27:22.849,0:27:23.670
in the first place?
0:27:23.670,0:27:25.019
Are there warning signs that
0:27:25.180,0:27:27.420
individuals report or that we
0:27:27.420,0:27:28.119
should understand?
0:27:28.130,0:27:30.829
I mean, I don't think anybody's
0:27:30.829,0:27:32.420
going to be very naive about that
0:27:32.420,0:27:33.519
because I think somebody who was
0:27:33.700,0:27:35.880
once estranged is probably pretty
0:27:35.880,0:27:37.670
aware of the kind of things that
0:27:37.670,0:27:38.470
bother them.
0:27:38.470,0:27:40.380
So,
I think, you know, I think the
0:27:40.380,0:27:41.529
people who are the most in danger
0:27:41.529,0:27:42.460
are those who are conflict
0:27:42.599,0:27:44.650
avoidant and not assertive, um,
0:27:44.650,0:27:45.630
and a certain percentage of
0:27:45.630,0:27:47.269
estrangements happen because of
0:27:47.420,0:27:47.970
that.
0:27:47.970,0:27:50.180
So, being able to be very verbal,
0:27:50.180,0:27:51.099
that's why I say it's better to
0:27:51.099,0:27:52.480
err on the side of being
0:27:52.619,0:27:54.240
kind of too boundaried initially
0:27:54.240,0:27:56.470
rather than being too expansive in
0:27:56.470,0:27:57.700
your boundaries and then having
0:27:57.720,0:28:00.059
to pull way back, um, because
0:28:00.059,0:28:02.039
that'll feel more rejecting to the
0:28:02.039,0:28:03.200
person than if you kind of come in
0:28:03.339,0:28:05.769
with fairly clear ideas about what
0:28:05.769,0:28:06.730
you're willing to do and not
0:28:06.730,0:28:07.259
willing to do.
0:28:07.279,0:28:09.150
Um, but yeah, if you're starting
0:28:09.150,0:28:10.630
to find yourself feeling really
0:28:10.630,0:28:12.259
resentful, that's probably a sign
0:28:12.400,0:28:13.740
either that you've committed too
0:28:13.740,0:28:15.440
much or you're doing too much or
0:28:15.440,0:28:18.700
the person's behavior, the care
0:28:18.930,0:28:21.319
recipient's behavior is triggering
0:28:21.319,0:28:22.859
something in you that has to get
0:28:22.859,0:28:24.140
addressed by you either in therapy
0:28:24.240,0:28:25.079
or with them directly.
0:28:25.269,0:28:29.269
And always remembering to identify
0:28:29.269,0:28:31.069
those body signals that tell you
0:28:31.069,0:28:32.380
that, uh, the stress is
0:28:32.559,0:28:34.638
mounting and if you haven't felt
0:28:34.638,0:28:36.089
them in the wild, they may, they
0:28:36.089,0:28:37.619
certainly may reactivate then.
0:28:37.930,0:28:40.480
So, let's change gears a little
0:28:40.480,0:28:41.339
bit now.
0:28:41.339,0:28:44.250
Let's talk about siblings.
0:28:44.250,0:28:45.579
When estranged siblings are
0:28:45.829,0:28:47.490
suddenly forced to make joint
0:28:47.490,0:28:49.289
caregiving decisions for an
0:28:49.289,0:28:51.949
elderly parent, what does that
0:28:51.949,0:28:52.449
sort of
0:28:52.450,0:28:54.279
pressure tend to expose or
0:28:54.279,0:28:55.660
intensify between them?
0:28:55.880,0:29:00.079
Yeah, well, there's a lot, so many
0:29:00.079,0:29:02.000
different dynamics that can, that
0:29:02.000,0:29:03.359
can happen.
0:29:03.359,0:29:04.359
Um, it's not
0:29:04.470,0:29:06.329
unfrequent that daughters, if
0:29:06.329,0:29:07.829
there's only a daughter in the
0:29:07.829,0:29:09.359
household or in the family that
0:29:09.500,0:29:11.440
they, there's sort of a greater
0:29:11.440,0:29:12.929
expectation, not fairly to the
0:29:12.929,0:29:14.539
daughter, but that she's going,
0:29:14.700,0:29:16.920
going to daughters probably in
0:29:16.920,0:29:20.089
general, um, are more likely to
0:29:20.089,0:29:21.380
have already stepped in or be,
0:29:21.490,0:29:23.059
be involved in ways.
0:29:23.059,0:29:25.529
Um, and that expectation may
0:29:25.529,0:29:27.940
persist once that parent, uh, is
0:29:27.940,0:29:28.500
starting to,
0:29:28.660,0:29:30.949
you know, to, to fail.
0:29:30.949,0:29:34.200
Um, so, but it can also, whether,
0:29:34.359,0:29:36.900
regardless of gender, it can kind
0:29:36.900,0:29:39.990
of trigger longstanding, simmering
0:29:39.990,0:29:41.200
sibling conflict,
0:29:41.289,0:29:43.960
um, where, you know, the person
0:29:43.960,0:29:46.150
who's preferred that the sibling
0:29:46.150,0:29:47.450
who kind of has done the best in
0:29:47.599,0:29:50.750
life, um, may not, um, I mean, it
0:29:50.750,0:29:52.809
kind of depends on the family and
0:29:52.809,0:29:54.019
the individual where some people
0:29:54.160,0:29:56.769
may just feel comfortable stepping
0:29:56.769,0:29:58.470
in and taking the lead.
0:29:58.470,0:30:00.699
Others may feel kind of sidelined
0:30:00.699,0:30:01.199
in doing
0:30:01.200,0:30:01.720
that.
0:30:01.720,0:30:04.539
Another worry is commonly, um, is
0:30:04.539,0:30:05.849
that sibling who's much more
0:30:05.849,0:30:06.559
involved going to,
0:30:06.700,0:30:08.990
you know, trick mom or dad into
0:30:08.990,0:30:10.049
changing the will.
0:30:10.049,0:30:11.869
So it benefits them.
0:30:11.869,0:30:12.809
That's a really common
0:30:13.000,0:30:15.359
source of, of conflict.
0:30:15.359,0:30:17.740
Um, you know, that I think it's
0:30:17.740,0:30:19.539
also that the parents kind of
0:30:19.539,0:30:20.579
nearing death
0:30:20.779,0:30:22.690
for, for people who haven't really
0:30:22.690,0:30:24.888
gotten enough from a parent, it
0:30:24.888,0:30:26.980
can, it's kind of a sad reminder
0:30:27.119,0:30:28.240
that they're never going to get
0:30:28.240,0:30:30.109
that which way they may have hoped
0:30:30.109,0:30:31.450
to receive from that parent
0:30:31.619,0:30:33.000
while they were alive.
0:30:33.000,0:30:34.799
So that can bring up feelings of
0:30:34.799,0:30:37.440
sadness and regret, but also anger
0:30:37.440,0:30:37.900
at the
0:30:37.900,0:30:39.460
siblings who were favored or who
0:30:39.460,0:30:41.200
did get more or continue to get,
0:30:41.200,0:30:42.019
get more.
0:30:42.019,0:30:43.299
So, so that can be a
0:30:43.440,0:30:45.409
real hotbed of, of conflict
0:30:45.409,0:30:48.109
depending on how the siblings, um,
0:30:48.109,0:30:49.089
navigate it.
0:30:49.089,0:30:49.859
I mean, when my parents,
0:30:49.980,0:30:51.289
I moved my parents out here when
0:30:51.289,0:30:53.150
they were in their, my mom was in
0:30:53.150,0:30:54.130
her mid eighties, my dad was in
0:30:54.130,0:30:55.410
his
early nineties.
0:30:55.410,0:30:57.579
And fortunately my brothers were
0:30:57.579,0:30:58.079
back in Ohio.
0:30:58.079,0:30:59.029
I'm in the Bay area.
0:30:59.029,0:31:00.579
And, um, and you know,
0:31:00.599,0:31:02.730
it, it all worked out fine because
0:31:02.730,0:31:04.049
the deal was they were going to
0:31:04.049,0:31:04.980
move them out here and that I
0:31:04.980,0:31:06.659
would,
I didn't, they didn't live with
0:31:06.659,0:31:08.329
me, but we set up a, you know, a,
0:31:08.329,0:31:10.400
um, assisted living and I would
0:31:10.490,0:31:11.380
have to have primary
0:31:11.380,0:31:11.920
responsibility.
0:31:11.920,0:31:12.609
And that was kind of the trade
0:31:12.609,0:31:13.950
off.
They packed them up, they moved
0:31:13.950,0:31:16.279
them
out, you know, but our
0:31:16.279,0:31:17.638
communication was such that it was
0:31:17.638,0:31:19.160
fine.
But in many of the families I work
0:31:19.299,0:31:21.359
with, that's all a big, one big,
0:31:21.359,0:31:24.000
you know, hotbed of furball of
0:31:24.000,0:31:25.759
mess, but between the siblings,
0:31:25.759,0:31:27.119
because
of all those issues that I was
0:31:27.119,0:31:28.349
just naming.
0:31:28.349,0:31:32.109
And you can imagine if, um,
0:31:32.109,0:31:33.200
there's estrangement among
0:31:33.380,0:31:35.359
siblings who are also then
0:31:35.359,0:31:36.599
mutually amongst themselves
0:31:36.599,0:31:38.440
estranged from the parent, it
0:31:38.440,0:31:38.799
really
0:31:38.799,0:31:41.900
creates, um, a difficult situation
0:31:41.900,0:31:43.200
where lots of important
0:31:43.200,0:31:44.799
conversations need to happen with
0:31:44.799,0:31:45.160
certain
0:31:45.160,0:31:48.380
degree of openness and acceptance
0:31:48.380,0:31:49.940
of the past while just trying to
0:31:49.940,0:31:50.779
manage the present.
0:31:50.940,0:31:51.880
Yeah.
0:31:51.880,0:31:53.470
And many don't, and many, many
0:31:53.470,0:31:57.880
parents die, um, without, um, ever
0:31:57.880,0:31:58.880
reconciling with their,
0:31:59.019,0:32:01.190
with their children or with seeing
0:32:01.190,0:32:03.309
that their children are, um,
0:32:03.309,0:32:03.740
estranged.
0:32:03.740,0:32:04.279
And so it's, it's
0:32:04.410,0:32:06.909
sort of a tragedy for everybody.
0:32:06.909,0:32:09.150
So when estranged siblings have to
0:32:09.150,0:32:10.920
make joint decisions and share
0:32:11.079,0:32:13.160
responsibility, like what has to
0:32:13.160,0:32:15.199
be in place for that to work at
0:32:15.199,0:32:15.559
all?
0:32:15.559,0:32:19.529
Well, if the siblings are
0:32:19.529,0:32:20.700
estranged, they're probably not
0:32:20.700,0:32:22.089
going to be able to make, uh,
0:32:22.240,0:32:24.529
joint decisions, uh, because
0:32:24.529,0:32:25.630
they're not, they're not willing
0:32:25.630,0:32:26.970
to communicate with each other.
0:32:26.970,0:32:28.650
So
that's why people, it's really
0:32:28.650,0:32:30.619
important for parents to have a
0:32:30.619,0:32:32.509
good solid estate plan, uh,
0:32:32.509,0:32:32.910
because,
0:32:32.910,0:32:35.980
um, they have to accept that, that
0:32:35.980,0:32:38.470
they may not be able to navigate
0:32:38.470,0:32:40.200
and make joint decisions once
0:32:40.339,0:32:41.059
they're gone.
0:32:41.059,0:32:41.799
And the parents are going to have
0:32:41.799,0:32:44.170
to make their, their decisions in
0:32:44.170,0:32:45.559
anticipation, uh,
0:32:45.579,0:32:46.059
of that.
0:32:46.059,0:32:47.559
They can't assume that, oh, I'm
0:32:47.559,0:32:48.079
dying.
0:32:48.079,0:32:50.319
And so therefore my, um, kids are
0:32:50.319,0:32:51.160
gonna, you know,
0:32:51.299,0:32:52.579
come together.
0:32:52.579,0:32:54.250
No, in all likelihood, they won't
0:32:54.250,0:32:54.750
come together.
0:32:55.880,0:32:57.519
Have you seen in your practice
0:32:57.519,0:33:02.519
successful situations where, um,
0:33:02.519,0:33:03.970
changes in a parent's health has
0:33:03.970,0:33:05.950
managed to bring siblings together
0:33:05.950,0:33:08.429
and with dedication, they've been
0:33:08.429,0:33:11.000
able to make some serious steps
0:33:11.000,0:33:14.400
forward?
Some, but I would say it's not,
0:33:14.400,0:33:16.190
it's the exception, not the rule.
0:33:16.190,0:33:18.400
I'd say the rule is more people
0:33:18.400,0:33:20.720
are estranged when the parent is
0:33:20.720,0:33:23.559
dying than they're likely to, to
0:33:23.559,0:33:25.599
remain estranged or for it to even
0:33:25.599,0:33:26.630
exact, the death to even
0:33:26.630,0:33:28.319
exacerbate it because not
0:33:28.319,0:33:30.240
infrequently parents, against my
0:33:30.240,0:33:32.690
advice, will cut out an estranged
0:33:32.690,0:33:34.279
child from a will.
0:33:34.279,0:33:36.000
Um, and then that can just worsen
0:33:36.000,0:33:37.420
the relationship between the
0:33:37.420,0:33:39.079
siblings once the parents passed.
0:33:41.299,0:33:47.170
When time is running out, how do
0:33:47.170,0:33:48.779
progressive chronic illness,
0:33:48.779,0:33:50.720
dementia, or even the terminal
0:33:50.720,0:33:53.309
diagnosis start putting pressure
0:33:53.309,0:33:58.069
on the estrangement and the
0:33:58.069,0:34:00.690
reconciliation that an adult child
0:34:00.690,0:34:01.740
may have needed?
0:34:03.519,0:34:05.160
Yeah, for some, it's sort of
0:34:05.160,0:34:07.539
enough of a reason to reconcile
0:34:07.539,0:34:08.730
with the parent.
0:34:08.730,0:34:10.159
You know, a lot of adult children
0:34:10.159,0:34:11.519
who are estranged, in the back of
0:34:11.519,0:34:13.739
their minds, they're assuming that
0:34:13.739,0:34:16.079
one day they will reconcile with
0:34:16.079,0:34:16.559
the parent.
0:34:16.559,0:34:18.909
And the research in general shows
0:34:18.909,0:34:21.219
that around 80% of adult children
0:34:21.219,0:34:22.610
who are estranged eventually do
0:34:22.610,0:34:24.719
reconcile with mom and around 70%
0:34:24.719,0:34:26.920
eventually reconcile, um, with
0:34:26.920,0:34:30.050
dad.
Um, so, so, so, so for a lot of
0:34:30.050,0:34:31.068
these adult children who are
0:34:31.068,0:34:32.510
estranged, it's not necessarily a
0:34:32.510,0:34:33.989
permanent decision in their mind.
0:34:33.989,0:34:36.800
Um, and I've worked with a, not a
0:34:36.800,0:34:39.409
few anyway, who, um, parent died
0:34:39.409,0:34:40.869
suddenly and they were estranged
0:34:40.869,0:34:42.429
and they felt really guilty and
0:34:42.429,0:34:43.590
sad about it that they'd put their
0:34:43.590,0:34:45.230
parent through that and now didn't
0:34:45.230,0:34:47.190
have the opportunity to repair.
0:34:47.190,0:34:48.559
Um, but for some, when their
0:34:48.559,0:34:50.068
parent is, is dying, it becomes
0:34:50.068,0:34:52.429
kind of a, um, you know, a
0:34:52.429,0:34:53.199
realization that they're never
0:34:53.199,0:34:55.210
going to be able to, to, to come
0:34:55.210,0:34:55.860
back to that parent.
0:34:56.139,0:34:58.579
And it causes them to do some kind
0:34:58.579,0:35:00.659
of a reproach mal for that reason.
0:35:00.679,0:35:05.219
I could see, though, how the
0:35:05.219,0:35:07.250
terminality of diagnosis, though,
0:35:07.250,0:35:08.719
can start actually putting
0:35:08.719,0:35:13.980
pressure on what was afforded to
0:35:13.980,0:35:15.778
the individual by the
0:35:15.778,0:35:16.599
estrangement.
0:35:16.739,0:35:20.340
And, um, you know, what served as
0:35:20.340,0:35:23.190
a coping mechanism suddenly is
0:35:23.190,0:35:26.010
under stress and that could have a
0:35:26.010,0:35:28.480
challenging effect on, on a child
0:35:28.480,0:35:30.420
who's facing a dying parent and or
0:35:30.420,0:35:33.400
a parent with progressive disease.
0:35:34.230,0:35:35.409
Can you comment on that?
0:35:35.530,0:35:37.360
No, I think you're right.
0:35:37.369,0:35:39.139
I think for some, it may bring
0:35:39.139,0:35:41.130
them to the, you know, bedside of
0:35:41.130,0:35:41.570
their parent.
0:35:41.570,0:35:43.250
For others, it's just, they just
0:35:43.250,0:35:43.750
can't.
0:35:43.860,0:35:46.119
And, um, you know, I don't think
0:35:46.119,0:35:48.329
it's because they're mean or
0:35:48.329,0:35:50.539
selfish.
I think they just feel like it's
0:35:50.539,0:35:52.619
either, they either feel too hurt
0:35:52.619,0:35:55.028
by the parent and, or that they
0:35:55.028,0:35:56.260
don't know any other way to be
0:35:56.260,0:35:57.318
around the parent and not
0:35:57.318,0:35:59.250
sacrifice some huge part of
0:35:59.250,0:35:59.619
themselves.
0:35:59.619,0:36:03.340
And so, um, they decide to, to
0:36:03.340,0:36:06.139
not, not visit the parent or not,
0:36:06.139,0:36:08.510
um, you know, make any kind of
0:36:08.510,0:36:09.880
amends with the parent or allow
0:36:09.880,0:36:12.090
any kind of amends to be made from
0:36:12.090,0:36:13.460
the parent because they just feel
0:36:13.460,0:36:15.179
like the cost of them
0:36:15.179,0:36:16.380
psychologically is too high.
0:36:18.170,0:36:21.108
Does grief and guilt sometimes,
0:36:21.108,0:36:28.179
um, does grief and guilt sometimes
0:36:28.179,0:36:31.840
come back posthumously after a
0:36:31.840,0:36:32.420
parent passes?
0:36:32.559,0:36:34.619
And do you have a certain number
0:36:34.619,0:36:36.559
of clients who seek out your
0:36:36.559,0:36:39.300
advice after a parent has died
0:36:39.300,0:36:41.340
when they weren't able to
0:36:41.340,0:36:42.340
establish some sort of
0:36:42.340,0:36:44.429
rapprochement because they stuck
0:36:44.429,0:36:46.059
to their guns and dug their heels
0:36:46.059,0:36:48.929
in and paid lip service to the
0:36:48.929,0:36:50.679
mechanisms that help them cope
0:36:50.679,0:36:51.260
over time.
0:36:51.400,0:36:53.110
But then suddenly once a parent's
0:36:53.110,0:36:55.269
gone, that mechanism implodes.
0:36:56.530,0:36:57.320
Yeah, absolutely.
0:36:57.329,0:36:58.989
I think that, I mean, I can't say
0:36:58.989,0:37:00.630
I've worked with a ton of those
0:37:00.630,0:37:02.039
individuals, but, but I've
0:37:02.039,0:37:03.260
certainly worked with some and
0:37:03.260,0:37:04.380
I've heard from other colleagues
0:37:04.380,0:37:06.900
as well that, that people who've
0:37:06.900,0:37:09.280
been estranged, not everybody, but
0:37:09.280,0:37:10.760
a certain percentage of them do
0:37:10.760,0:37:11.949
feel some feeling of guilt and
0:37:11.949,0:37:13.789
regret, particularly those who had
0:37:13.789,0:37:15.059
it in the back of their mind that
0:37:15.059,0:37:16.440
they would eventually reconcile.
0:37:16.579,0:37:17.849
They may not have known when, but
0:37:17.849,0:37:19.050
it wasn't in their mind that this
0:37:19.050,0:37:20.619
was going to be a permanent thing
0:37:20.619,0:37:21.719
and then the parent dies more
0:37:21.719,0:37:23.400
suddenly or they contract some
0:37:23.400,0:37:24.719
kind of a fatal illness, then
0:37:24.719,0:37:26.000
they're, you know, they die in a
0:37:26.000,0:37:28.199
very short period of time and, um,
0:37:28.199,0:37:29.360
they just haven't had time to
0:37:29.360,0:37:31.929
really work through the, the
0:37:31.929,0:37:32.989
feelings that would have allowed
0:37:32.989,0:37:34.960
them to, to be, have a
0:37:34.960,0:37:35.760
relationship with a parent.
0:37:35.780,0:37:37.110
So they're kind of left with, with
0:37:37.110,0:37:39.170
the guilt, the guilt, the grief,
0:37:39.170,0:37:39.860
and the shame.
0:37:39.860,0:37:40.969
I don't, I don't think the
0:37:40.969,0:37:42.778
majority of adult children who,
0:37:42.778,0:37:44.460
whose parents die still feel some
0:37:44.460,0:37:46.349
degree of, of guilt and sadness,
0:37:46.349,0:37:47.880
but also guilt, shame, and regret.
0:37:49.710,0:37:51.389
How do you cope with that moving
0:37:51.389,0:37:51.800
forward?
0:37:51.800,0:37:55.159
Is it just time-based or are there
0:37:55.159,0:37:58.119
steps one needs to do or go
0:37:58.119,0:38:02.239
through to sort of embrace that
0:38:02.239,0:38:03.829
and what it, the reality that it
0:38:03.829,0:38:05.690
is and then start taking steps
0:38:05.690,0:38:06.030
forward?
0:38:06.030,0:38:09.679
It must be really strategic and if
0:38:09.679,0:38:11.070
you're going to be successful at
0:38:11.070,0:38:11.570
that.
0:38:12.480,0:38:13.730
Yeah, I think it's the way that
0:38:13.730,0:38:15.570
you're in dialogue with yourself
0:38:15.570,0:38:17.210
that you'd have to remind yourself
0:38:17.210,0:38:18.940
that you're doing it however
0:38:18.940,0:38:20.699
hurtful it was to the parent.
0:38:20.840,0:38:23.449
Your intention wasn't to, to hurt
0:38:23.449,0:38:24.320
the parent or to wound them.
0:38:24.489,0:38:26.429
It was really to protect yourself
0:38:26.429,0:38:27.778
from a relationship that you felt
0:38:27.778,0:38:31.829
was really harmful to you and, um,
0:38:31.829,0:38:34.519
to, to kind of remind yourself of
0:38:34.519,0:38:36.699
that and to be in a position of,
0:38:36.699,0:38:39.619
of, um, self-forgiveness and
0:38:39.619,0:38:41.019
self-compassion.
0:38:41.110,0:38:42.860
For making a decision that, that
0:38:42.860,0:38:43.880
was hard on your parent
0:38:43.880,0:38:44.289
ultimately.
0:38:44.289,0:38:48.230
So, when, I guess, when an
0:38:48.230,0:38:50.190
estranged parent is close to the
0:38:50.190,0:38:53.059
end of life, does that create, in
0:38:53.059,0:38:54.610
your experience, a real opening
0:38:54.610,0:38:56.420
for repair or can it actually
0:38:56.420,0:38:59.010
create pressure to reconcile that
0:38:59.010,0:39:00.780
isn't actually always healthy?
0:39:02.219,0:39:03.760
I mean, I mean, I think it can
0:39:03.760,0:39:11.150
certainly create, um, you know,
0:39:11.150,0:39:13.579
whether it's healthy or unhealthy.
0:39:13.590,0:39:15.480
I don't know that anybody would be
0:39:15.480,0:39:17.150
particularly damaged if a parent's
0:39:17.150,0:39:19.110
dying and they give them an
0:39:19.110,0:39:22.400
opportunity to, um, you know, to
0:39:22.400,0:39:23.800
make amends or to have a
0:39:23.800,0:39:25.239
conversation or to say goodbye.
0:39:25.579,0:39:27.090
And I, I don't know that that
0:39:27.090,0:39:29.369
would be really bad for anybody to
0:39:29.369,0:39:31.039
do.
I could see somebody arguing,
0:39:31.039,0:39:32.190
well, it's just more of me taking
0:39:32.190,0:39:33.579
care of them and being parentified
0:39:33.579,0:39:35.820
and, you know, being codependent.
0:39:35.909,0:39:37.679
I just don't think it's a serious
0:39:37.679,0:39:39.139
enough reason not to do it.
0:39:41.000,0:39:42.670
Yeah, I tend to agree with that in
0:39:42.670,0:39:44.070
the setting of, you know, the
0:39:44.070,0:39:45.960
radical honesty of the moment and,
0:39:45.960,0:39:49.329
and the reaching out, um, it may
0:39:49.329,0:39:51.400
actually bring forward a little
0:39:51.400,0:39:52.440
bit of peace as well.
0:39:52.550,0:39:53.199
Yeah, exactly.
0:39:53.360,0:39:56.719
Yeah, I often tell people, you
0:39:56.719,0:39:58.500
know, make the decision whether to
0:39:58.500,0:40:01.010
reconcile or not, um, or to visit
0:40:01.010,0:40:02.920
a dying parent in mind of what,
0:40:02.920,0:40:04.190
how you think you'll feel, you
0:40:04.190,0:40:05.789
know, one year, two year, ten
0:40:05.789,0:40:06.980
years after they're gone.
0:40:07.159,0:40:08.250
Because sometimes our immediate
0:40:08.250,0:40:09.579
feelings aren't a great guide, but
0:40:09.579,0:40:11.059
if we can kind of project
0:40:11.059,0:40:13.210
ourselves into the future, um,
0:40:13.210,0:40:14.900
sometimes that can give us better,
0:40:14.900,0:40:15.489
better guidance.
0:40:17.510,0:40:19.739
So if an adult child chooses not
0:40:19.739,0:40:21.630
to care or to reconcile with a
0:40:21.630,0:40:25.219
dying parent, how can they
0:40:25.219,0:40:27.150
actually make that decision in a
0:40:27.150,0:40:29.429
way they can live with later on?
0:40:29.579,0:40:32.420
Yeah, I think, again, it comes
0:40:32.420,0:40:34.039
back to self-compassion and being
0:40:34.039,0:40:36.550
in dialogue with yourself, um, be
0:40:36.550,0:40:37.590
very clear about what your
0:40:37.590,0:40:40.409
reasoning was, um, you know,
0:40:40.409,0:40:42.510
making, I don't think anybody
0:40:42.510,0:40:43.690
should cut off a parent unless
0:40:43.690,0:40:45.880
they've given that parent, kind of
0:40:45.880,0:40:46.940
done due diligence.
0:40:47.539,0:40:48.639
With them in terms of giving them
0:40:48.639,0:40:50.920
the opportunity to, to change or
0:40:50.920,0:40:52.489
make amends or repair, and that
0:40:52.489,0:40:53.590
often means being willing to do
0:40:53.590,0:40:55.570
family therapy, to have a
0:40:55.570,0:40:56.550
conversation with the parent that
0:40:56.550,0:40:57.769
the parent can actually hear, to
0:40:57.769,0:40:59.789
not just come in blaming them or
0:40:59.789,0:41:01.568
yelling at them or telling them,
0:41:01.568,0:41:03.179
you know, diagnosing them or
0:41:03.179,0:41:03.659
whatever.
0:41:03.659,0:41:05.400
So I think that there is an
0:41:05.400,0:41:06.559
obligation, I believe, that adult
0:41:06.559,0:41:08.289
children have to the parent to be,
0:41:08.289,0:41:10.409
to give them some opportunity for
0:41:10.409,0:41:10.739
repair.
0:41:10.739,0:41:11.949
Because, but I also think in a
0:41:11.949,0:41:13.150
more self-interested way that,
0:41:13.150,0:41:16.170
that gives that adult child more
0:41:16.170,0:41:18.590
freedom from feeling guilt if the
0:41:18.590,0:41:20.219
parent really isn't able or
0:41:20.219,0:41:22.449
willing to change or modify their
0:41:22.449,0:41:23.840
behavior in a way that feels
0:41:23.840,0:41:25.519
workable to the adult child.
0:41:25.679,0:41:26.750
Because then when they can say to
0:41:26.750,0:41:27.699
themselves, well, you know, I
0:41:27.699,0:41:29.260
really gave them every opportunity
0:41:29.260,0:41:29.980
I could.
0:41:30.000,0:41:31.570
So it's not like I did this out of
0:41:31.570,0:41:33.940
pure impulse or selfishness, and
0:41:33.940,0:41:35.000
it's regrettable that they
0:41:35.000,0:41:36.650
couldn't respond in a more
0:41:36.650,0:41:37.409
sensitive way.
0:41:37.579,0:41:40.579
But, um, but, you know, I, I felt
0:41:40.579,0:41:41.440
like it was a binary.
0:41:41.460,0:41:43.539
It was either their mental health
0:41:43.539,0:41:45.389
or mine, and I had to choose mine,
0:41:45.389,0:41:47.579
and, and, and I, I'm, I'll, I'll
0:41:47.579,0:41:48.079
live with that.
0:41:49.099,0:41:51.789
I really like that idea of the pay
0:41:51.789,0:41:54.829
forward returns, the conversation
0:41:54.829,0:41:56.699
you have moving forward with
0:41:56.699,0:41:58.230
yourself when you recognize that,
0:41:58.230,0:42:00.820
well, I came to the bedside, and I
0:42:00.820,0:42:01.510
gave them a chance.
0:42:01.659,0:42:04.260
And if they were not capable, and,
0:42:04.260,0:42:06.260
you know, we, we know well about
0:42:06.260,0:42:08.329
narcissistic personalities and
0:42:08.329,0:42:11.010
other, uh, important terms which
0:42:11.010,0:42:12.599
are very popular these days, and
0:42:12.599,0:42:14.179
how those individuals may not
0:42:14.179,0:42:14.579
change.
0:42:14.579,0:42:15.659
And they may not change on their
0:42:15.659,0:42:19.119
deathbed either, but at least your
0:42:19.119,0:42:22.989
closure comes from having been
0:42:22.989,0:42:25.340
present, facilitating a
0:42:25.340,0:42:25.719
conversation.
0:42:25.719,0:42:27.829
Yeah, you've kind of earned your
0:42:27.829,0:42:29.269
way out of it, you know, in the
0:42:29.269,0:42:30.840
same way that I think people with
0:42:30.840,0:42:32.010
children who are going to divorce
0:42:32.010,0:42:33.809
really need to earn their way out
0:42:33.809,0:42:35.440
of the marriage because of the
0:42:35.440,0:42:36.829
consequences to children can be so
0:42:36.829,0:42:37.400
dire and grave.
0:42:37.909,0:42:40.150
I also think estrangement is
0:42:40.150,0:42:42.400
similar, uh, that, that parent,
0:42:42.400,0:42:43.440
adult children have to earn their
0:42:43.440,0:42:43.809
way out.
0:42:43.809,0:42:45.280
But I also, but, you know, I mean,
0:42:45.280,0:42:46.670
most of my methodology is around
0:42:46.670,0:42:48.510
getting the parents to, to do the
0:42:48.510,0:42:50.199
hard work of making amends and
0:42:50.199,0:42:52.250
taking responsibility and showing
0:42:52.250,0:42:53.590
vulnerability and compassion for
0:42:53.590,0:42:55.369
the adult childs, including their
0:42:55.369,0:42:56.139
decision to estrange.
0:42:56.300,0:42:59.318
You bring a wealth of experience,
0:42:59.318,0:43:00.719
and certainly your book, The Rules
0:43:00.719,0:43:03.269
of Engagement, uh, The Rules of
0:43:03.269,0:43:04.139
Estrangement, sorry.
0:43:05.579,0:43:06.940
Everybody does that, Mark, you're
0:43:06.940,0:43:07.440
not alone.
0:43:07.440,0:43:08.320
Yeah, that's funny.
0:43:08.329,0:43:12.130
I mean, I, I, I actually love the
0:43:12.130,0:43:13.280
title because I think it's, I
0:43:13.280,0:43:15.019
think it's just brilliant, but,
0:43:15.019,0:43:15.860
uh, that's funny.
0:43:16.000,0:43:18.599
But, um, it packs a wealth of
0:43:18.599,0:43:19.679
knowledge, and I like its
0:43:19.679,0:43:21.550
readability and its, its
0:43:21.550,0:43:23.179
concisement, and you bring so much
0:43:23.179,0:43:24.260
experience to the table.
0:43:24.400,0:43:27.800
And at a time where, um,
0:43:27.800,0:43:29.860
caregivers are in crisis, and it's
0:43:29.860,0:43:32.389
not, it's not in America, it's not
0:43:32.389,0:43:33.989
in Canada where we are, it's
0:43:33.989,0:43:34.340
everywhere.
0:43:34.340,0:43:37.380
I'm sure the numbers are pushing,
0:43:37.380,0:43:40.360
you know, 80 million caregivers
0:43:40.360,0:43:44.179
in, um, in North America, and the
0:43:44.179,0:43:45.550
same across the world, in
0:43:45.550,0:43:48.360
different cultures, and, uh, in
0:43:48.360,0:43:49.139
different jurisdictions.
0:43:49.250,0:43:51.500
And it's a real issue these days
0:43:51.500,0:43:52.920
that everybody's contending with.
0:43:52.940,0:43:55.000
If you had some parting words for
0:43:55.000,0:43:55.500
our listeners.
0:43:55.599,0:43:58.130
Well, I just wanted to speak to
0:43:58.130,0:43:59.539
that.
I think that's all true, but I
0:43:59.539,0:44:00.909
think there are other societies
0:44:00.909,0:44:02.619
that do a much better job.
0:44:02.630,0:44:04.719
I think that in the United States,
0:44:04.719,0:44:06.539
both when we're raising our
0:44:06.539,0:44:08.280
children, and when they're young,
0:44:08.280,0:44:10.289
and also when they're, our parents
0:44:10.289,0:44:12.300
are older, there's very little
0:44:12.300,0:44:15.300
state support around helping, uh,
0:44:15.300,0:44:16.739
helping either the adult children
0:44:16.739,0:44:18.409
with the parent, or helping the
0:44:18.409,0:44:19.659
parents, the younger parents with
0:44:19.659,0:44:20.480
their children.
0:44:20.590,0:44:21.670
And in other societies,
0:44:21.670,0:44:23.539
particularly North European
0:44:23.539,0:44:24.989
societies, they do a really good
0:44:24.989,0:44:25.500
job of that.
0:44:25.639,0:44:26.880
They pay higher taxes, but they
0:44:26.880,0:44:28.050
actually have higher rates of
0:44:28.050,0:44:30.389
happiness and mental health, um,
0:44:30.389,0:44:31.659
in part, because they do that.
0:44:31.679,0:44:33.619
So there's relief from the
0:44:33.619,0:44:35.309
caregivers, because it's not all
0:44:35.309,0:44:36.889
on them in the way that it, that
0:44:36.889,0:44:37.400
it is here.
0:44:37.599,0:44:39.940
So, um, yeah, I mean, so my, my, I
0:44:39.940,0:44:41.528
guess my parting words for, if
0:44:41.528,0:44:42.719
you're the adult child, and you
0:44:42.719,0:44:44.630
have a parent who's dying, and
0:44:44.630,0:44:45.630
you're either estranged, you've
0:44:45.630,0:44:46.969
had a difficult relationship, it's
0:44:46.969,0:44:48.320
really to kind of do due diligence
0:44:48.320,0:44:50.840
in part, so you can, if you do
0:44:50.840,0:44:52.380
decide to stay estranged, you can
0:44:52.380,0:44:53.840
do it with a greater degree of
0:44:53.840,0:44:55.469
serenity and psychological
0:44:55.469,0:44:55.909
resolution.
0:44:55.909,0:44:57.519
And if you're the parent, to know
0:44:57.519,0:44:58.679
that your child may need something
0:44:58.679,0:44:59.719
from you that you still haven't
0:44:59.719,0:45:01.840
yet given them, that's, that's an
0:45:01.840,0:45:03.679
expression of regret, or amends,
0:45:03.679,0:45:06.969
or, uh, compassion, um, that
0:45:06.969,0:45:08.429
typically, if adult children have
0:45:08.429,0:45:10.028
complaints about their parents,
0:45:10.028,0:45:11.659
um, it's important to sort of
0:45:11.659,0:45:12.929
think that there's a good reason
0:45:12.929,0:45:15.028
that they are, have them, or even
0:45:15.028,0:45:16.750
need the distance, and so to
0:45:16.750,0:45:18.840
approach them with, uh,
0:45:18.840,0:45:20.380
self-reflection and
0:45:20.380,0:45:21.639
responsibility, those are really
0:45:21.639,0:45:23.449
the key ingredients towards any
0:45:23.449,0:45:24.280
potential reconciliation.
0:45:24.690,0:45:30.500
I think those, those moments are
0:45:30.500,0:45:32.769
truly just that, they're moments
0:45:32.769,0:45:34.119
to make some really important
0:45:34.119,0:45:35.610
choices when it comes to
0:45:35.610,0:45:37.260
reconciliation, and as you point
0:45:37.260,0:45:38.889
out so happily, it doesn't change
0:45:38.889,0:45:40.659
the past, it doesn't change the
0:45:40.659,0:45:42.519
trajectory of events that led to
0:45:42.519,0:45:45.010
estrangement, but in that moment,
0:45:45.010,0:45:47.010
just, again, radical acceptance
0:45:47.010,0:45:49.650
from both sides that it happened,
0:45:49.650,0:45:52.500
but something can be let go in the
0:45:52.500,0:45:54.559
moment, and something can,
0:45:54.579,0:45:57.599
be felt in the moment, um, may be
0:45:57.599,0:45:58.800
the best solution.
0:45:58.800,0:45:59.119
Um, may be the best solution.
0:45:59.119,0:45:59.860
Yep, absolutely.
0:45:59.869,0:46:02.500
I really wanted to thank you for
0:46:02.500,0:46:03.630
joining us today.
0:46:03.630,0:46:05.519
Uh, you bring so much experience
0:46:05.519,0:46:07.690
to the table, and caregivers are
0:46:07.690,0:46:09.650
listening astutely.
0:46:09.650,0:46:11.059
They have lots of questions, they
0:46:11.059,0:46:13.489
have lots of things that need to
0:46:13.489,0:46:15.099
be sorted out, they need change,
0:46:15.099,0:46:17.179
as you well point out.
0:46:17.179,0:46:18.300
Um, we're now seeing,
0:46:18.320,0:46:20.059
in Canada, in Canada, in Canada,
0:46:20.059,0:46:21.449
in the States, you know, some
0:46:21.449,0:46:23.369
movement towards recognizing the
0:46:23.369,0:46:26.639
huge costs that are borne on the
0:46:26.639,0:46:28.969
shoulders of caregivers, costs
0:46:28.969,0:46:31.420
with the system, without really
0:46:31.420,0:46:33.480
checking in with caregivers, uh,
0:46:33.480,0:46:35.730
just pass on to them, and we've
0:46:35.730,0:46:36.690
certainly, with a lot of our
0:46:36.690,0:46:39.380
guests, heard stories, uh, about
0:46:39.380,0:46:41.309
that, but hopefully now, even in
0:46:41.309,0:46:42.489
the corporate world, we're coming
0:46:42.489,0:46:44.639
to recognize that productivity can
0:46:44.639,0:46:45.739
improve if you actually
0:46:45.739,0:46:47.358
incorporate flexibility into your
0:46:47.358,0:46:48.099
employees' schedules.
0:46:48.119,0:46:49.480
to allow them to allow them to
0:46:49.480,0:46:51.989
care, to be at appointments, and
0:46:51.989,0:46:53.719
they'll come back to the work
0:46:53.719,0:46:55.940
healthier, feeling less stressed,
0:46:55.940,0:46:59.318
and be able to produce remarkably
0:46:59.318,0:46:59.818
better.
0:47:00.210,0:47:01.360
Yeah, no, I think that's really
0:47:01.360,0:47:03.030
well said, really important,
0:47:03.030,0:47:03.460
absolutely.
0:47:03.460,0:47:05.789
Thanks for your time, we look
0:47:05.789,0:47:07.750
forward to, uh, your future
0:47:07.750,0:47:09.239
contributions, and any future
0:47:09.239,0:47:09.739
conversations.
0:47:09.820,0:47:11.940
Thanks for being here today.
0:47:12.110,0:47:13.239
Yeah, thanks a lot for having me,
0:47:13.239,0:47:14.480
it was great, great speaking with
0:47:14.480,0:47:16.860
you.
That wraps up this week's episode
0:47:16.860,0:47:18.699
of the Caregivers Podcast.
0:47:18.699,0:47:20.909
Thanks for being here, and we will
0:47:20.909,0:47:21.679
see you next week.
0:47:22.119,0:47:22.949
Dr.
0:47:22.949,0:47:24.570
Coleman, thank you for helping us
0:47:24.570,0:47:26.130
speak to one of the most painful
0:47:26.130,0:47:27.599
and least understood places
0:47:27.599,0:47:29.000
caregiving can take a family.
0:47:29.010,0:47:30.440
I think one of the clearest
0:47:30.440,0:47:32.000
reminders from this conversation
0:47:32.000,0:47:33.880
is that estrangement does not
0:47:33.880,0:47:35.969
erase history, pain, or
0:47:35.969,0:47:36.389
obligation.
0:47:36.389,0:47:38.840
It makes every decision more
0:47:38.840,0:47:41.199
complicated when illness, decline,
0:47:41.199,0:47:43.179
and time enter the picture.
0:47:43.269,0:47:44.699
For anyone listening who is
0:47:44.699,0:47:45.929
carrying this kind of family
0:47:45.929,0:47:47.579
conflict, I hope this conversation
0:47:47.579,0:47:49.710
gave you language, perspective,
0:47:49.710,0:47:51.409
and a little bit more room to
0:47:51.409,0:47:53.179
think clearly about what you can
0:47:53.179,0:47:54.559
and cannot live with later.
0:47:55.170,0:47:56.380
And if this episode meant
0:47:56.380,0:47:57.869
something to you, please take a
0:47:57.869,0:47:59.219
moment to rate the Caregivers
0:47:59.219,0:48:01.389
Podcast on Apple Podcasts,
0:48:01.389,0:48:02.699
Spotify, or wherever you listen.
0:48:02.840,0:48:04.599
Leave us a comment, it really
0:48:04.599,0:48:06.000
helps other people find the show.
0:48:06.159,0:48:08.559
Before we wrap up, I wanted to
0:48:08.559,0:48:09.619
remind you of something important.
0:48:09.750,0:48:11.250
The conversations you hear on this
0:48:11.250,0:48:12.900
podcast are here to inform, to
0:48:12.900,0:48:14.199
support, to spark reflection.
0:48:14.219,0:48:15.570
We're not a substitute for
0:48:15.570,0:48:17.429
professional medical advice, care,
0:48:17.429,0:48:18.670
therapy, or crisis services.
0:48:18.860,0:48:20.449
Listening to this podcast does not
0:48:20.449,0:48:21.699
create a doctor-patient or
0:48:21.699,0:48:23.059
caregiver-client relationship
0:48:23.059,0:48:23.579
between us.
0:48:23.719,0:48:24.818
If you're facing a medical
0:48:24.818,0:48:26.510
concern, health challenge, a
0:48:26.510,0:48:27.809
mental health challenge, or a
0:48:27.809,0:48:29.190
caregiving situation that needs
0:48:29.190,0:48:30.469
guidance, I encourage you to reach
0:48:30.469,0:48:32.010
out to a qualified professional
0:48:32.010,0:48:32.940
who knows your story.
0:48:32.960,0:48:34.590
If you're ever in crisis, please
0:48:34.590,0:48:35.090
don't wait.
0:48:35.099,0:48:36.480
Call your local emergency number
0:48:36.480,0:48:38.150
or recognize crisis hotline right
0:48:38.150,0:48:40.059
away.
You deserve real-time help and
0:48:40.059,0:48:40.369
support.
0:48:40.369,0:48:41.969
The views you hear on this show,
0:48:41.969,0:48:43.510
whether from me or my guests, are
0:48:43.510,0:48:44.010
our own.
0:48:44.039,0:48:45.480
They don't necessarily reflect any
0:48:45.480,0:48:47.329
organizations we work with, are
0:48:47.329,0:48:48.750
part of, or have worked with, or
0:48:48.750,0:48:49.849
been part of in the past.
0:48:49.969,0:48:51.449
This podcast is an independent
0:48:51.449,0:48:51.920
production.
0:48:51.920,0:48:53.630
It's not tied to any hospital,
0:48:53.630,0:48:54.940
university, or healthcare system.
0:48:55.079,0:48:56.409
Thank you for being here, for
0:48:56.409,0:48:57.610
listening, and most of all, for
0:48:57.610,0:48:59.010
taking the time to care for
0:48:59.010,0:49:00.260
yourself while you continue to
0:49:00.260,0:49:00.880
care for others.
0:49:00.920,0:49:02.159
I look forward to hearing from
0:49:02.159,0:49:02.659
you.