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The Sum of All Wisdom is built on a simple idea: music IS the sum of all wisdom.
More than a podcast, The Sum of All Wisdom is a community and resource platform dedicated to exploring music as a way of knowing. Music is humanity's oldest way of knowing and one of our best technologies for making meaning, and through long-form conversations with musicians, producers, writers, and cultural thinkers—along with performances, essays, and educational resources—we investigate the creative life and what it teaches us about memory, identity, creativity, community, and the human condition.
Whether you're a musician, artist, scholar, or simply someone who loves music and believes it matters, The Sum of All Wisdom is an invitation to listen more deeply: to great music, to the people who make it, and to the wisdom gained through a life devoted to music and musical worlds.
Because music is more than entertainment. It is one of humanity's most ancient ways of understanding the universe and our place in it.
Emma (00:00)
visible metrics have been possibly the worst thing to happen to the creative industries. And I don't think that when you put an album on, you should see the number of people who have also played that album.
Emma Intro (00:16)
Welcome to the Sum of All Wisdom. Today we are thinking about what happens when we stop asking whether art is successful and ask instead how art matters. Emma Swift believes creativity lives somewhere deeper than numbers or algorithms or even originality. And in this conversation, we talk about Dylan, interpretation, failure, songwriting, and the private, almost sacred relationship that we build with the music we love.
Scott (00:46)
visions of Johanna. Tell me how it is that you come to decide what it is you're gonna cover when you cover Dylan's music.
Emma (00:54)
Well, you know, there's something about a a song when you're listening to it and
It kind of capsizes you in a way, at least for me, where I stop listening to it just as a fan and for pure enjoyment and think, gosh, I'd really love to sing this one. So I Visions of Johanna comes to me reasonably recently in my Dylan covers, in that when I made Blonde on the Tracks, which is my album of all Bob Dylan songs, it wasn't a contender to be on that record.
And that was for two reasons. The first was that I was already doing Sad-Eyed Lady of the Lowlands, which goes for 11 minutes and 58 seconds. and and Sad-Eyed Lady of the Lowlands holds a similar space in my heart in the Dylan Canon. I'm an a huge fan.
of that song and it's tremendously beautiful and also tremendously challenging to sing. So I felt like I had my work cut out for me on on the Blonde on the Tracks record with Sad Eyed Lady. So I didn't do visions there. And also I was mindful that
Marianne Faithful is one of my favorite singers and Dylan interpreters. And she had recorded a glorious version of Visions of Johanna. And so I kind of just wanted to leave that with her. but she has since passed on. And so now
to my mind when I'm doing Visions of Johanna, part of it is about my love for the song and my reverence for Dylan. But another part of it is also in honor of her too and and what she brought to the track. Cause one of the really fun
things about singing Dylan is that so many other singers have sung Dylan as well. So you can take you can phrase it any way you want to. I mean Dylan would, but you can take little bits of Dylan's phrasing or little bits of Marianne Faithful's phrasing or Nina Simone's phrase. You know, it's it's it's it's the most Shakespearean music gets, you know, there's
It's always fun to kind of try a Dylan song on. Visions is probably my favorite Dylan song. But you know, I was listening to a bunch of Dylan yesterday, and I was listening to Born in Time. And and and
Scott (03:49)
Yeah. Great record. Yeah.
Emma (03:51)
and and there's a great, there's a couple of great versions of Born in Time.
And now, you know, I just thought I've got a gig coming up in New York and I was like, I wonder if I can just sneak this one into the band. I'm like like I wonder if I mean the band will be fine, but I'm the person who has to learn all the lyrics when it comes to Dylan too. So
Scott (04:10)
Right.
Emma (04:12)
yeah.
Scott (04:14)
And what's the decision? Are you gonna slip it in?
Emma (04:17)
I'm gonna try. watch this space.
Scott (04:20)
That's fantastic. I love it. I so Nina Simone, Marianne Faithful, you I think you're in a you've got a a hell of a legacy that you are stepping into with the Dylan interpretation. And you do it so well. For me, the the the reason I I am sort of always thinking about your version of Visions of Johanna since I heard it maybe a couple of months ago is I I don't mean to fawn like a fanboy, but it's exceptional, right? Your voice. I think there's something about you you
Your interpretation, your voice is both for me, it's there's something earthy, there's something very grounded and something very ethereal. And I think for me, you get the Marianne Faithful sort of what's the word I'm looking for? You are in that lineage of of of of of interpretations of Dylan's music. And I th I love it. I love it. I can't
get enough of it, Emma.
Emma (05:17)
I'm I'm so glad you like it. You know, it's it's it's a real privilege to get to sing these songs.
Scott (05:25)
Mm.
Emma (05:26)
And I've learned so much by listening to other singers. You know, I'm pretty self-taught as a singer and I didn't go to music school or anything like that. you know, when I was growing up I just used to listen to my parents' records and and and and tape songs off the radio and sing along.
Scott (05:43)
Yeah. The good old days, right?
Emma (05:45)
Yeah, yeah. And but it's so
So, I mean, the Dylan melodies are so beautiful to sing. I mean, and the words, there's
There's so much poetry and depth there. And especially with a song like Visions of Johanna, which is quite surrealistic in its imagery. there's so many ways you can let that song land and and and inhabit a space. the version that you would have heard was all done live in Nashville. and you know, Dylan recorded Visions of Johanna in Nashville on
Scott (06:23)
In Nashville, right.
Emma (06:25)
on Valentine's Day in in 1960.
sixty six. so
it's nice to do these songs, you know, in Nashville with a Nashville band. He wasn't from here and I'm not here from here either, but it's a great place to record.
Scott (06:39)
but you are this is home now, right? Nashville's home for you. You were originally s from Sydney. What's the what's the trajectory if if we can go in that direction for a sec?
Emma (06:50)
sure.
So I moved to Nashville in 2012.
Scott (06:53)
Mm.
Emma (06:54)
Absolutely on a whim. I had no idea what I was doing. I just really loved music. And in particular, at the time I was very into songwriters like Townes Van Zant and Guy Clark and Gillian Welch. And I knew that if I moved to Nashville, I could still go and see Guy Clark play in a club down the street for about
bucks and and he's he's a legend and and he wasn't going to be touring Australia anytime soon. You know, Australia only really gets like pretty either young people trying to break into the scene or big international touring acts. So it I wanted to come and sort of skirt around the edges of that singer-songwriter scene. And so I did that. I moved over here with two suitcases.
One had clothes and one very stupidly was full of records. I mean, there's plenty of places to buy records in Nashville. I think I would have been fine if I'd just
Scott (08:01)
Right.
Emma (08:02)
come with more clothes. and and that was that really. I didn't have a plan.
And then just by luck and good fortune and unbridled enthusiasm I've s I've been able to stay. there were other you know, when you're not from America and
You kind of project all these different fantasies onto the place born purely out of the television that you've watched, the movies that you've seen, the books that you've read, and the albums that you've heard. So there was a part of me that was very drawn to Nashville, Then there was another part of me that was very drawn to Los Angeles because I loved but I'm particularly fond of that.
Laurel Canyon, kind of Neil Young, Joni Mitchell, David Crosby, Vanished World, you know. But I couldn't afford to live in LA. So I skipped LA. And the other place I really adored was New York. And I but I knew that like with my small amount of savings, I wouldn't get very far in New York. I'd probably last two months and then have to go home.
and I'm kinda glad about that now because New York to me is still a totally romantic fantasy city that almost doesn't feel like a real place. you know, whenever I go there I'm or I'm still like a a wide eyed little kid in in pure delight. The city's never kicked my ass.
Scott (09:50)
I had that same romantic sense of San Francisco and I lived
Emma (09:54)
Right.
Scott (09:56)
I lived outside of Oakland actually, not actually in San Francisco, but I spent a lot of time in the city for a few years and it I it totally destroyed the romance for me.
Emma (10:06)
Yeah.
I see I still have a romantic San Francisco. Whenever I go, I go to City Lights and I go to Vesuvios and I live in a but yeah, yeah, you real you don't want to touch too much reality. And and and reality the reality of Nashville has kind of
You know, it's it's had its way with me over time, but but I still really love it as a place. I do think that if you're a musician, it's a pretty wonderful place to be.
Scott (10:42)
Do you find for me, LA is LA, San Francisco, New York, Chicago, New Orleans, they have a character, very specific character. They are who they are, right? And the
Emma (10:53)
Mm.
Scott (10:54)
people, the music, the sounds that come there are wonderful. I'm not denigrating that at all, but they're they're you you can kind of tell. Nashville for me always has seemed a little bit more like it's a permanent discovering of itself kind of place.
Emma (11:11)
Yeah, it's a shapeshifter, Nashville.
Scott (11:13)
Yeah, exactly.
Emma (11:14)
And and that's for better or worse. You know, I think that there are some elements of Nashville that have changed a lot over time that are not that great. but then there are elements of, you know, I've got a friend who's about to buy a very classic vintage recording studio that, you know, it's pretty pretty exceptional and some legendary albums have been made in there and I think
If that were in Sydney, that place wouldn't exist anymore. It would have been turned into apartments thirty years ago. But but here there's still an element of of that. I mean, my partner is an English songwriter, Robyn Hitchcock, and he always says that Nashville wears a Stetson hat for publicity purposes. but yeah, there's a lot more of a diverse scene here than than one might think if they were if you know
If you're walking down Broadway, which is our big kind of party strip at night, it's all country music and cowboy boots and hats and bachelorettes and and party people and but then there's lots of little clubs doing really cool things.
Yeah, it's it's fun.
Scott (12:31)
talking about the album, you've got the vinyl release of Down and Out in Party City is coming up, I think, pretty soon. Is that right?
Emma (12:39)
Yeah,
that's pretty soon. So last year I put out a ten track album called The Resurrection Game. And this year I have there were just a handful of songs left over that I thought this might be nice if I put it on a ten inch vinyl, because I'm a very old fashioned person. so so that's coming out on a ten inch vinyl and then Visions of Johanna.
Is coming out on a seven inch vinyl. And then I'm I'm you know, I'm working away on originals at the moment because I'm I'm in the process of writing a new record. but then while I take my time to write that record, and I will take my time because I'm slow. I I wish I was more prolific, but I just I tend to labor over things. I've got a whole album of Lou Reed songs that's gonna come
up that will be the kind of it's the natural sequel to the Dylan Blonde on the Tracks record. In my in the way that I'm imagining things is that I do an originals album, a covers record, an originals album, then a covers record. It seems to me the only way that I can keep any kind of
momentum going and it also it when you record a lot it takes the pressure off of one project having to be perfect.
I get very I can get a little bit too too caught up. So if I've got whereas if I'm just doing slightly too much, it's easier to kind of, you know, you can
You know what it's like when you're making art? It's like it's good to walk away and then still use some of those skills somewhere else, but not be too overly invested in it.
Scott (14:45)
The article that you put out on Substack a couple of days ago. Great article. I really loved it. I am a hundred percent behind Dylan and Infidels. It's my
favorite.
Emma (14:57)
Mm.
Scott (14:57)
I th it's between that and Blonde on Blonde, I think, but it's up there with my favorite Dylan records for sure.
Emma (15:03)
Same,
absolutely, yeah. I
Scott (15:06)
And
Emma (15:06)
d I can't work out if that's because I mean technically Infidels is the first one that came out in my lifetime.
Scott (15:11)
Mm. Mm.
Emma (15:13)
So I think that I have a kind of rot romantic attachment to the idea of, okay, this is this is born around the same time as me. but yeah, what is it about Infidels that that gets you?
Scott (15:26)
I was working at a record store and you know, the the guy that I worked for would always hold off one album of virtually everything that came in just to have something always playing. And when I started, it was still records. So I put the needle in the groove on this record behind the counter. And it s I mean, it just spoke to me, that record forever has always said
This is your time. This is what I'm saying in your time. These are the sort of political ideas that I have going on in my head during your time. They s mean something to me, but they mean something to you even more. And that for me as Dylan always opens up that space for I'm not telling you about me. I'm telling us about us. And I when I
Emma (16:06)
Yes.
Scott (16:07)
when I hear sweetheart like you especially, it's just hundred percent
Emma (16:11)
I
Scott (16:12)
that's where I am.
Emma (16:13)
I think I mean Sweetheart Like You is such an extraordinary song and you think about that coming out in December nineteen eighty-three and then you think about the times that we're in now and it's got that incredible verse. They say that patriotism is the last refuge
Scott (16:31)
Last refuge
Emma (16:32)
to which a scoundrel clings, still
Scott (16:34)
Yeah.
Emma (16:34)
a little and they throw you in jail, still a lot and they make you a king. I mean, that's just Dylan being the oracle right there.
Scott (16:42)
damn.
Emma (16:43)
I mean I mean if ever a song deserved to come out in twenty twenty six, it's that one.
Scott (16:48)
That's right.
Emma (16:49)
I I just love that song. And then the the piece that you're referring to, the substack that I wrote is like
you know, basically at the by the end of the essay I'm just nerding out on songs that he also wrote during that time and didn't release.
Scott (17:07)
Yeah.
Emma (17:08)
so I'm really fond of Too Late and I'm really fond of Angelina. I I find them both pretty devastating and that is to my mind
The greatest feeling I can get when I listen to a song and you know, if I start to cry I
reach that that transcendent place that
Scott (17:36)
Mm-hmm.
Emma (17:37)
we all want to go when we listen to a track.
Scott (17:40)
He had such amazing people playing with him for during that time. Knopfler was there, Shakespear on bass,
Emma (17:46)
Yeah. Yeah.
Scott (17:50)
I I forget who else, but it it was just an amazing collection of artists doing amazing work in a really odd period of time globally for sure. But in the US it was like mm, what's going on here? This
Emma (18:02)
And musically too. I mean, my kind of the music that I'm super into from I guess the late 70s, eighties is
Scott (18:10)
Mm.
Emma (18:11)
more in that lands in the new wave thing.
Scott (18:13)
Mm-hmm.
Emma (18:14)
You know, I'm an Elvis Costello super fan and I got into super into all of his records and sort of around the early eighties, that's when Elvis Costello comes to Nashville and makes almost blue his country record with Billy Sherrill.
Scott (18:28)
Yeah.
Emma (18:29)
So it's like it's just a it's an in
It's a it's an interesting and weird time in in
Scott (18:35)
Yeah.
Emma (18:36)
music, the the early eighties.
Scott (18:39)
Maybe
Nashville's gift is not that it shapeshifts itself only, but it it induces shape shifting in the folks who come there, right?
Emma (18:47)
Yeah,
yeah, probably. I mean, it's sort of when I first moved here, I think that I wanted to make kind of
Folky country like like Lucinda Williams type records. And I it's true that I think whatever country I had in me, Nashville kicked it out of me really fast. It got
Scott (19:11)
interesting.
Emma (19:12)
it got me I sort of was like, you know, I think I you know, I don't I don't know how I would discribe what I sound like now, but it's more of a like a folk rock thing. I don't think there's any country in there at all.
Scott (19:28)
Can I ask you, Emma, how is it that Nashville kicked the country out of you? What happened? W w w what was the sort of experience of that?
Emma (19:36)
I think that there is a thing that I don't necessarily like in music culture, which I would describe as the authenticity police.
Scott (19:49)
Mm.
Emma (19:50)
And and the authenticity police need for the artist to be like, you're from the farm, or you're from it's like a kind of they're the kind of people who would crucify David Bowie for not really being from outer space. it lac it lacks imagination, but it's very real.
Scott (20:15)
Mm-hmm.
Emma (20:16)
And and so I think that that is what kind of put me off it. It's also I maybe when I lived in Sydney and there weren't that many country bands, it was an appealing thing to do, but then when I moved here and there was a lot of country, it was like, I don't wanna do that anymore. You know.
Scott (20:36)
Some of the
country, I mean, if we're on this, i isn't great, right?
Emma (20:39)
Yeah, some of it's not great and some of it's absolutely brilliant though. So I mean like Tammy Wynette is
up there with my favorite singers. Linda Romstadt, who really popularized country rock. Again, one of my favorite singers, Emmy Lou Harris, another great interpreter, Lucinda Williams. You know, there's there's a lot to love. I mean, I went to the Dylan show at Ascend Amphitheatre and and I saw Lucinda opening that gig and it was fantastic. You know
Scott (21:20)
I'm so
glad she's still performing after the stroke.
Emma (21:22)
Well, and her she and she's got that perfect country kind of Louisiana drawl. It's it's it and
Scott (21:32)
Yeah. And delivery, right?
Emma (21:35)
d and delivery and and so even in spite of all of the health challenges that she has had,
She is still her voice is tremendous
Scott (21:48)
Mm.
Emma (21:48)
and listening to her sing is glorious and you know, and she's
At a Dylan show, it's so funny because she's completely the opposite to Dylan, you know. Every everybody in the audience at a if you've never been to a Dylan show and you don't know and you think that you're gonna get Blowin' in the Wind or Times They are A-Changin' or Knocking on Heaven's Door you're absolutely dreaming. But Lucinda opens her set and immediately first chord in. It's Car Wheels on a Gravel Road. You know,
Scott (22:19)
Right. Yeah, you are.
Emma (22:21)
she's you know, she's the set list.
is very much sort of reflective. And I lo and I don't I love both of them and that is not a complaint about either of them doing whatever they want. They're just two two very different artists doing two very different things.
Scott (22:44)
Yeah, they both for me, they both know their their job, right? Lucinda's job is Lucinda's job and she does it really well and Dylan, same thing.
Emma (22:52)
Yeah.
Scott (22:52)
And they bring it and it's not the same job. I think for me is that's the important thing to remember when you go to any show like that. That's that for me, that's a fantastic pairing. That's like a have I died and gone to heaven? Because this is where it happens, right?
Emma (23:06)
Yeah,
I thought it was a great pairing too. And I actually enjoyed it much more than
I I caught Dylan in Chattanooga earlier this year and there was no opening act on that show. And I think the thing about having an opening act, aside from it warming the audience, is that it raises the stakes for the headlining show. So I thought that because Lucinda and Jimmy Vaughan, who also played that show, had done a such a brilliant job, I felt like Dylan rose to the occasion.
on that show. And and that's a good thing.
Scott (23:46)
Definitely is. That's a very I like that observation that he's he's not just coming out to be Dylan, he's coming out to be Dylan who's also got these other f amazing, globally famous, fantastic artists who have done something else and he can't just come out and schlep his way through it kind of thing.
Emma (24:03)
Yeah.
Scott (24:05)
and Guy Clark for me, just to sort of loop back to that, is I don't know, he Townes Steve Earle and Guy Clark for me are are sort of a trinity of I can't live without these three. So they're in fairly constant rotation in our house. And I really love the way Clark puts words together as well. I think for me, he's he is country music.
Emma (24:30)
What I love about people like Guy Clark is that he was country without the bells and the whistles. You know, so you would go and see Guy Clark and he was perfectly adept at just walking on stage with an acoustic guitar and you know
Take genre out of it, what he really is is a singer-songwriter.
Scott (24:56)
Mm-hmm.
Emma (24:56)
And and he wrote exceptional songs to such a beautiful poetic high standard that there doesn't need to be a full band behind it. it's the whole point is that a single person can stand on stage and sing that song and move the audience. and yeah, I I used to love
I love going to see him play. It was wonderful. I couldn't believe my luck. I you know, I pinched myself every time. I I never got to see Townes, unfortunately. but but I did see Guy Clark.
Scott (25:36)
I
didn't see Guy and I didn't see Townes. I have seen Steve Earle and also phenomenal performer.
Emma (25:42)
I yeah, I've seen Steve a few times. he's a really funny guy. Very very chatty. I played a festival once and
it's hardly strictly bluegrass in San Francisco. And I'd been on harmony singing with my partner and me and Robyn and Steve Earle and Emmy Lou Harris, one of my personal heroes, are riding in the back of a golf cart to go to another stage. And I think it must have been we must have been all going to watch some other show. It might and and I and I'm like quietly, I'm not
I'm not a shy person, but I'm you know, like i if it's someone that I've not worked with before or not really met, I try to be very I'm pretty reserved.
And I'm sitting on the back of this golf cart with Emily Lou Harris, and I'm like, should I say something? Don't worry, there wasn't a chance. We got a monologue from Steve Earle from from point A to point B. And it was very entertaining. But
He c he can talk a lot. He can talk a lot as a g he tells a good story. I was a big I knew Justin, his son too. And I'd seen Justin
Scott (27:05)
Yeah, right. And
Emma (27:06)
Townes Earle play a lot.
Scott (27:09)
Also a hell of a talent. Yeah.
Emma (27:11)
incredible talent and a beautiful guitar player and finger picker and interpreter of songs. You know, you'd go to a Justin Townes Earle song and he would
Write the he wrote these devastating songs about life but also about his parents. He was pretty candid.
Scott (27:29)
Mm.
Emma (27:32)
but then he would also he used to play The Replacements, Can't Hardly Wait, and he would do a a beautiful cover of Bruce Springsteen, Racing in the Street. And he did that Guy Clark thing too, where it would just be him on stage.
standing alone and there's something really special about that.
Scott (27:56)
Sure
is. Yeah. T I have to ask.
Any after the Steve Earle monologue, was there any opportunity to corner Emmy Lou and say, I just want to tell you I really like your music?
Emma (28:11)
I don't really remember. I don't know. I mean, yeah, I I don't know her personally, but like, you know, I I I I if I see her in Nashville from time to time, 'cause you do, I always, you know, give the the nod of respect. particularly, I mean, I'm very big fan of the Wrecking Ball album that she made with Daniel Lanois.
Scott (28:35)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Emma (28:36)
I think that
record is especially and I'm also a fan of the way that she has broken down, I think her and Linda Ronstadt, some of the stigma around doing cover songs.
Scott (28:50)
Mm-hmm.
Emma (28:51)
You know, I say with inverted commas I think there's no harm in being an interpreter, but I think in some music circles it's kind of like a
You've got to write your own tracks, man. I mean it's it all that's descended from Dylan. It's his fault. before that it was Frank Sinatra doing, you know, other people's songs. But then Dylan
Scott (29:15)
Yeah.
Emma (29:16)
came and came in and changed the game and it's been you gotta write your own songs ever since. But but Emmy Lou's been a good, you know, she's a a brilliant interpreter.
Scott (29:25)
And Linda Ronstadt in a way carried over that a little bit of both, right? She carried the sinatra, Sing the Others Songs but Do Them Really Well, better than anybody could.
Emma (29:32)
Yeah. Mm.
Scott (29:34)
But also some of your own. And then Joe Cocker gets all kinds of privilege in terms of, you know, you can cover stuff and we'll adore you for a while.
Emma (29:43)
Yeah.
Scott (29:44)
And but nobody else can, or not many others can.
Emma (29:48)
I think it's sort of I think you ca yeah. I mean it's a it's it's I don't think that music is necessarily improved by people insisting on writing all their own songs. I think it's it and and I think that's one of the f lovely things about existing in that Dylan universe is that you are there's so many brilliant songs of his to cover.
and there's so many different ways that you can do it that it never really seems to get old to me.
Scott (30:28)
And it's such a an education to cover Dylan. It's like you can see how words go together and and have an impact in a very specific way. Right. The words themselves, but also when they're varied in their delivery or varied in their the emphasis, whatever when you cover Dylan, you can learn from the way he puts words and music together.
Emma (30:47)
absolutely. You know, some people do crossword puzzles to exercise their brain. I learn Bob Dylan songs.
Scott (30:51)
Mm, mm. Mm-hmm.
Emma (30:55)
It's it's a it's a it's a great way to get inside someone else's mind, you know.
Scott (31:06)
My other favorite from Infidels is I and I.
Emma (31:09)
Mm-hmm.
Scott (31:10)
And at the time, a lot of the even since then, right? Sort of retrospectives and and you know music critic writing of the era of the 80s, talking about that record, always said that side two sort of fell apart. It's like I I don't see that at all. There's one weak song in there for me, and that's Union Sundown. It's not
Emma (31:32)
Right.
Scott (31:35)
in the
Big picture. It's not a bad song, but it's not on par with Sweetheart or I and I or any of the rest of the cuts that are on there. But it's it's nearly a masterpiece for me, for a
Emma (31:45)
Yeah. I mean
Scott (31:48)
Dylan masterpiece.
Emma (31:49)
I I mean there's a I yeah, I love all all Dylan's records. There's something
Scott (31:54)
Mm.
Emma (31:55)
special in in all of them to me. and I think, you know, any one of us would be lucky to turn in what would be considered his you know
Scott (32:06)
Yeah.
Emma (32:08)
I think that
Yeah, there there's something very mean, it's difficult for artists, isn't it? Because as we
Scott (32:14)
Mm.
Emma (32:14)
get older,
it's like love. You never get a chance to like bowl someone over the first time again.
Scott (32:22)
Mm.
Emma (32:24)
So I feel like often people's favorite records, whether their f whether it's a Joni Mitchell or a Neil Young or a Nick Cave or whatever their entry point is into that artist, that then becomes the favorite. You know, so like for years for me, Abbey Road was my favorite Beatles album because
Scott (32:44)
Mm.
Emma (32:45)
it was the
first one that I had on vinyl. But then once I spent more time with the catalogue, my favorite is now the White album.
Scott (32:55)
Mm-hmm.
Emma (32:55)
And you know, I think that if I were to pick an even though it doesn't have any of my favourite Dylan songs on it, my favorite Dylan album might be Bringing It All Back Home.
it's a an odd thing, you know, like my first Joni Mitchell album was Blue, which I think is the gateway to a lot of Joni Mitchell's work. But again, like years later, I got into Hajira
Scott (33:24)
Mm.
Emma (33:24)
and that became the record that I was super into. my dad gave me a copy of Neil Young Harvest when I was 17.
And I was like, A Man Needs a Maid. What is this shit? And then I just never listened to Neil Young. And I love Neil Young. I I I but I had to and I I actually really enjoy Harvest now, but I'm more of a Neil Young super bottoming out on the beach person.
Scott (34:00)
Yeah.
I my first Beatles was Revolver.
Emma (34:05)
Right.
Scott (34:05)
My parents had a crazy eclectic record collection and Revolver and Rubber Soul were in that collection. The first record I ever put a needle on was Revolver and
Emma (34:15)
Wow.
Scott (34:16)
I was destroyed from there on. But my favorite record, I have a hard time between Abbey Road, Sgt. Pepper and the White Album. I can't decide. I can never pick.
Emma (34:28)
Well, they're all so good. I mean just what an a fabulously creative time. And I've been, you know, I've been thinking about this. I don't because I
I don't delve into the world of music criticism or writing.
Scott (34:48)
Yeah.
Emma (34:49)
I only ever want to write about, you know, how how things feel to me. I think it's dangerous for artists to get into to where, these are my top ten things, or it's like, no. But I do I've been thinking about Britain, specifically bands.
Scott (35:10)
Mm-hmm.
Emma (35:10)
You know, having the Beatles and the Kinks and the Rolling Stones and then thinking about America as
a place of singer songwriters. You know, so it's like, you know, even Graham Nash, who was in The Hollies, he moved to America to break out of the band. And then when
Scott (35:33)
Mm-hmm.
Emma (35:34)
he formed a band here, they didn't have a band name. It was Crosby Stills Nash. You know, it was very it's just that it to me it's like a there's there's a interesting cultural meditation worth investigating on like
what it is about America that brings up the lone songwriter and what it is about Britain that forces people into groups.
Scott (36:05)
Yeah. I
mean, we do have a long trajectory of you know, this is the same reason that we have baseball as the national pastime, right? It's one guy against nine. And this idea of
Emma (36:15)
Right. Mm-hmm.
Scott (36:16)
it's the solo independent adventurer macho man out there on the frontier conquering things, right? That's that's
Emma (36:23)
Yeah.
Scott (36:24)
America. So it makes sense that the singer songwriter would be the sort of, you know, the the the the troubadour tradition coming out of that would be
Would make sense to me, right? In a s in a way.
Emma (36:36)
Absolutely, yeah.
Scott (36:38)
I agree with you about the not doing lists and critique and that sort of thing. I'm I'm I want to be generous to anybody who's courageous enough to put words on a piece of paper and write some music notation above it and then play that for people. I think that's an ex it's natural to us, but it's also unnatural to us as we are now. And s it takes a lot of courage to do that, I think. So I always want
be generous. Part of what I find the most compelling about the the story that you just narrated from the Beatles to the Stones to the Kinks to what's going on in the US, all that, it's the backstories. This is one of the things that I like about doing this podcast is hearing what people are up to that doesn't
Emma (37:23)
Right.
Scott (37:24)
make the record. You know, so I think about the Beatles testing songs together. Yeah, we got 10 or 12 or 13 songs on the record, but there's a whole bunch of others that didn't make it.
And how did that process work out? And then there's bootlegs and Dylan classic bootleg sort of
legacy there that he that he brings. But the I wanna know how it is that people come to to do what they do in the larger sense, right? That's that's the what my interest lies.
Emma (37:55)
yeah, the b the background story and,
it always goes back to Dylan, but you know, like
Part, you know, Blonde Blonde, you know, like it started in New York. It was finished in Nashville. It was
Scott (38:05)
Yeah. Mm hmm.
Emma (38:07)
supposed to be finished in New York. You know, like but the way that a city and the personnel on a record can completely alter the course of how that
sounds and how it fits in the cultural imagination. And
Scott (38:24)
Mm-hmm.
Emma (38:25)
you know, I made a record the the Resurrection Game album was made on the Isle of Wight. and I really wanted to record on the Isle of Wight because it's remote
Ancient, weird, there's no Wi-Fi. I brought a bunch of I mean there is there's bad Wi-Fi. I brought a bunch of musicians from Nashville there to do it. but it's still there's something about displacing yourself. I mean, David Bowie, the the Berlin era of Bowie is I mean, you'll know that I've if
I have not won the lottery, but you if if if I did there would be signs and the sign would be that I was recording in Berlin. You know, it's like it's a good dream.
Scott (39:16)
Good dream, right? Yeah.
Emma (39:18)
It's a good dream.
Scott (39:20)
The I always think of sorry to bring this back to the Beatles. I always think of the s story of Jealous Guy. Great, very famous, awesome song that we have from Dil from Lennon post Beatles.
Emma (39:32)
Mm-hmm.
Scott (39:32)
But he he brought that to the Beatles first, right? And they it didn't work. And it didn't work for him in that context either. He changed all the lyrics before it became Jealous Guy. So the title, the lyrics, all of that changed in collaboration with
his other colleagues, but also with Yoko and I think he he ran it by Spectre,
right? He ran it by a bunch of people and everybody was like, no. And that becomes then jealous guys. Like, that's a story I wanna know more about.
Emma (40:03)
Yeah, I mean some not all ideas are supposed to be hatched at
Scott (40:08)
Mm.
Emma (40:09)
at
at
a particular time. Like some things have to gestate. You know, there's that famous
Scott (40:14)
That's right. Yeah.
Emma (40:15)
Leonard Cohen story about writing Hallelujah for seven years or something. And even then he records it and no one cares. And then John Cale records it and then Jeff Buckley hears John Cale's version and you know, the life of a song is it's not you know it's fascinating 'cause it doesn't, you know, things kind of
things kind of reveal themselves over time.
Scott (40:44)
Yeah.
Emma (40:45)
I did a gig a couple of weeks ago and I sang Jealous Guy at that gig. and it's it's very, very close to being my favourite John Lennon song.
Scott (40:57)
yeah.
Emma (40:58)
but also because I love Brian Ferry. Brian Ferry does a fantastic version of Jealous Guy
Scott (41:06)
I agree yeah, yeah.
Emma (41:07)
but there's a c something I love
the the desperate yearning side of Lennon is very appealing to me. you know, and and maybe maybe that just wasn't supposed to be a band track.
but it also shows you too that like just because someone doesn't believe in your idea it doesn't mean the idea's not good.
Scott (41:37)
Mm-hmm.
Emma (41:38)
It just might need a little bit more time.
Scott (41:41)
thinking, right? Spend some time, go through it again, try something else. I think the you know, we often point to those things as a kind of failure. And not that however we label it, failure for me is always productive. It's like I learned something from each time that I that I come up against that wall.
Emma (42:01)
I think that I do too. I I have to be careful around failure, in that or or even some things are not necessarily failures, they're just disappointments.
Scott (42:14)
Mm-hmm.
Emma (42:14)
And sometimes if I feel a little too kicked in the guts, it can bring up an inertia in me.
And and I guess that's w going back to what I was saying earlier, if I'm working on too many projects, then it's easier for me to pick myself up again from a disappointment and go on to something else.
Scott (42:38)
And
Emma (42:39)
Whereas if I put my heart and soul into a song or a recording or a show and then it it doesn't go off as planned.
I can grieve something a little too long. I've always admired those people who you yeah, who have that resilience to just go, well, I'll do I'll do it again. I I'm I have a tendency to to get a little bit sad about it if if things don't work out. And sometimes that can be you know, writing a song and then just knowing that like
'Cause songwriting's like problem solving. It's like, the melody's there, the verse is there, but god damn it, I can't find this chorus and I know it's not great, you know, you know, or yeah.
Scott (43:37)
I I think I was a little glib. I I do the same as as you've just described, Emma. When I hit failure, it even if it's a minor failure, I take it very hard. So
Emma (43:48)
Yeah.
Scott (43:49)
learning from it takes me a good long time, right? I have to live with that. I have to live with myself as the I'm not who I thought I was in that moment. And I it takes a lot to get through that. And it can be inertia's a good word for it, but it can also be, I think.
Heavier than that, much more like I I just don't have it in me anymore. Existential in a sense.
Emma (44:13)
Yeah. I mean I am very like it's also too, you know, it's like the the the yardstick for failure is like is is
'Cause
I try not to even though like my day job is I I run a record label, I think
Scott (44:30)
Mm-hmm.
Emma (44:30)
about the numbers and I think about the data, but I never think about the bottom line.
Scott (44:36)
Yeah.
Emma (44:37)
Is a record a f to me, the record succeeds if the record sounds good. If
Scott (44:43)
Mm-hmm.
Emma (44:43)
if you're happy with the record, then that's all that's that's what matters. If the record doesn't recoup or it doesn't break down any doors, is it a fail?
Failure? No. But is it frustrating? Absolutely. and we l you know, we're in these kind of weird times where like the the value of music is has changed so much.
I think that visible metrics have been possibly the worst thing to ever happen to the creative industries. And I don't think that when you put an album on, you should see the number of people who have also played that album. part of that is because I grew up in the nineties and like things that were it was terribly uncool to like things that were excessively popular. You know, 30 years.
ago it's like you know but I think that that is really just ranking anything is just like I will if you love
an
album, it shouldn't matter how many other people also like it or like an Instagram post or it's just it do it doesn't it doesn't really resonate with how I wanna consume art. Like I don't you know, imagine like rocking up at the Louvre.
And then there's a ticker underneath the Mona Lisa that says, you know, however many million. It's just it takes the awe away from things and it takes the intimacy away from things, you know, like I'm
And I know I'm n can be have the a tendency to be naive and romantic, but like even though you know, the Beatles sold millions of records, when you or I go
to a r our collection at home and pull Revolver off the shelf and then sit it down on the turntable and put the needle on that is an intimate experience between you and the Beatles. And that's there's something kind of sacred in that. There's a r there's a ritual.
It hasn't
Scott (47:25)
That's right.
Emma (47:25)
b it hasn't been fed up by an algorithm it's very intentional.
Scott (47:30)
not performative. I'm not doing it because everyone else is doing it or because Spotify told me to.
Emma (47:36)
I mean there's a total place for streaming in that, you know, I love that I can stream whatever on my phone. I can go, actually I wanna listen to this, you know, particular Bob Dylan outtake that is you know, I love I love having that world available. but I think that there's something really nice about
the tactile experience of listening to music.
Scott (48:08)
I agree a hundred percent. Can I ask you, Emma? You you said you're working on your your next writing the songs for your next record.
What
Emma (48:18)
Yeah, mm-hmm.
Scott (48:21)
how does do you work through that process? What's your process of crafting songs that get on a record?
Emma (48:28)
I my I have a couple of different ways that I operate. I have a notebook
Scott (48:34)
Mm.
Emma (48:35)
and so I start with a new notebook. and I write in the notebook, but I also write I long before I'm even thinking about writing, I've started collecting the titles of songs in
the notes app of my phone. And the titles are usually things that have come up in conversation or overheard fragments. You know, just little things that make me think, I like that. I'm gonna write that down. So I do that. and then I sing again into my phone. and
see what melodies are are landing. And then after I've done that, I after I feel like I've got a song structure and a good sense of the lyric, I will get a more professional guitarist to record a proper demo.
So just so that when I go into the studio it's not just, hey guys, here's my phone. and yeah, that's pretty much it. That's pretty much the process. I am investigating and I don't know if this will work, but I am trying to do a little bit more collaboration on songs on this one.
Not lyrically, I don't really want I have gotten no interest in co-writing lyrics with anyone.
Scott (50:13)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Emma (50:15)
but musically I would I'm interested in doing the Johnny Marr Morrissey thing where I say to a guitarist, Here's a title I've made up. Could you write an instrumental track and then bring it back? Because I think that I mean I'm
Musically l you know, I I know that I'm musically limited and and if we leave it all up to me, the instrumentation's just gonna wind up in 6-8. And there's too many 6-8 songs on the Resurrection Game So I need to just in order to develop my sound a little bit more, I think some collaboration might be helpful.
Scott (50:59)
Do you have guitarists in mind, folks that you are wanting to work with?
Emma (51:02)
Yeah, all the time. I work with a fantastic guitarist called Juan Solazano on on the Resurrection Game and on the Down and Out in Party City EP. But then Rick Lawler, who plays guitar with me live, is a very jazzy blues guitar player and I love working with Rick. And then Jeremy Fetzer is another guy who lives down the street and is extr he's an extr I say I say
He lives down the street. He's an extraordinary musician. He's all over the recent Robyn Hitchcock album. He's on the Brandon Flowers album. He's got a love of
Got very similar music tastes. but we'll see how things go because you I don't I haven't booked the studio time yet. And what will happen is as o as is often the case here, is that I can have a dream lineup for a band, but if they're out on tour with someone else,
Scott (52:06)
Right.
Emma (52:08)
I still have to get the thing recorded. And I kind of like I like the idea of
Of mocking the the magic of like,
Scott (52:19)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Emma (52:19)
it's gonna sound different because this is the the person,
Scott (52:23)
I the when you're describing working with these other guitarists, I I have a sense my memory goes to Bowie and Earl Slick, right? put them together,
Emma (52:31)
Mm-hmm.
Scott (52:32)
it's like, my God, that's something.
Emma (52:35)
Th and that's a part that's such a that's the the freedom of being a singer songwriter as opposed to like I often envy and
you know, people who have bands, it's so the camaraderie and the beauty and the the mystery in the alchemy of that. I there's a part of me that really wishes I had that. And then there's another part of me that, you know, if you watch any band documentary ever where they're tearing at each other's throats, I think, great, you know, it's it's more like in a way as a seeing a songwriter when you're doing a record.
And you have it's you and the producer, and then it's it's casting, you know?
Like it's so it's like it's more like being in theatre where it's like, okay, well who if we brought in this guitar player, what's it gonna sound like if we bring in this bass player? there was a great moment when I was recording my Lou Reed album and I th decided that I wanted to record a version of Berlin.
And we didn't have a piano player. And then the the bass player, John Estes, just said, Well, I can play the piano. And he did. And it's awesome. He he would never I don't think he would think of himself as a Nashville piano player for hire, but the job that he did on this track was sublime. It's great.
Scott (54:11)
story
i want to see you live emma at some point
I think September and October you're you're overseas touring, is that right?
Emma (54:18)
Yeah, that's I've got twenty eight shows in Europe in from the end of September through to the beginning of November.
Scott (54:29)
Mm.
Emma (54:30)
which will be super fun and also exhausting. But but I'm looking forward to it. It's gonna be really great.
Scott (54:38)
so you're back from that tour, you're gonna settle into writing the record at that point and working on that. Will you be touring again in the US after after the first of the year or something?
Emma (54:48)
There'll
be more touring in the US in January and February. In I th probably in sporadic bursts.
Scott (54:56)
Mm.
Emma (54:56)
touring is a very expensive thing to do. So the New York show that I'm doing with the band, I mean that's gonna be I I mean, I have no e it's gonna be f great, but I haven't met the drummer or the keyboard player before. You know, that sort of but but it's Rick on guitar and Todd on the bass and I know them and then
I'm just it's me and a couple of jazzers. So it's gonna be I love that. I love the kind of looseness of of that. and then
And then yeah, for for January, February, it'll be sort of picking up shows. I'm gonna do a show in Nashville in December on my birthday. and that'll be in a di at a really cool diner called Brown's Diner, which is a an old double-wide trailer. and the stage is tiny, but lots of legendary people play there and it'll be just really fun. So I'm gonna do that. And then
Yeah, try and I I sort of I'll figure out, I guess, what happens with touring next year as we get closer to it. I am the yeah, there's a part of me that's mindful that I although it's not this way for all creative people, but I don't really write when I'm traveling.
Scott (56:20)
Mm.
Emma (56:21)
it's not a
i i I might get a title down or something, but it it's a just a very different headspace for me. So I do need a little bit of time at home.
If I really wanna get this record underway. And you know the only way I'm gonna be able to get the record underway is give myself a false deadline. I'm gonna have to, but you know, watch this space I'm gonna have to go, okay, I've booked a week in the studio in February. So we're gonna have to have some songs.
Scott (56:53)
Do you so you talked about your friend ha is buying this this legendary screw? Were you booked time there?
Emma (56:58)
Yeah, yeah. I d I
I'm not gonna say what place it is because I don't wanna jinx it for him.
Scott (57:03)
Mm-hmm.
Emma (57:04)
but I do I mean I think I'll my next record I'll w I'll likely make with Jordan Lenning again. I love working with Jordan and we have a really good language and emotional shorthand. and so that is really good to have in a studio.
Scott (57:25)
Makes a difference, doesn't it?
Emma (57:26)
It t it totally does. and so I'll probably do he's got a studio that's in at the back of his house. So that
Scott (57:33)
Mm.
Emma (57:34)
is both incredibly like easy for both of us, but also really budget friendly.
Scott (57:42)
Mm-hmm.
This is a an idea that has come up a lot of times on the podcast. This, you know, being in the in the studio together with with your collaborators, whether you are just collaborators or part of a band, it matters to have this shorthand that you say because so much energy gets expended on explaining or trying to explain or not not being able to explain, right? Something to somebody who doesn't share that language with you.
Emma (58:10)
Yeah, it's really important. And it's and just having the kind of people, you know, some producers wanna be Phil Spector.
They
Scott (58:18)
Mm.
Emma (58:19)
wanna get their whole language
They want to imprint themselves, you know, so sonically on everything that they do. but that is Jordan is not like that. And and that's really good for me because I want to reserve the right to say, you know, I know we spent two hours doing this particular thing, but I don't like it. Or or or at least not I don't like it, but maybe let's
try it this other way. I mean one of the very cool things that we're extremely lucky about in production now is like it's not like there's a limited amount of tape. You know, you can try an idea out and it doesn't you know, you don't have to r record over it if you want to
Scott (59:14)
Yeah.
Emma (59:15)
do something, you know, it's like yeah.
Scott (59:17)
You've got producer credits too. how do you produce? What's your ethos when you come in?
Emma (59:24)
well I'm not
a re I'm not
I am a real producer in like the Joe Boyd sense of the producer, the Rick Rubin sense of the producer of guiding takes and saying things. I'm not a producer who writes parts or sets up mics, or I don't I don't have any of those skills. So when I say when I call myself a producer, it's usually because I've had some involvement in being the architect of
The thing. So for example, on Robyn's pandemic album, Shuffle Mania, because it was done during the pandemic, all kinds of parts had to be flown in from different places and then assembled. And then I took him to Abbey Road and produced his vocal takes. I'm really when I'm credited as a producer, it's usually because I'm there doing vocal takes and and doing that.
element of the song
Scott (1:00:27)
not that you're imprinting yourself on that on those on that sonic landscape, but it's important, right, to make those to have the observations and to get the lyrics, to get this the not the lyrics, the vocals to sound the way that they do, right? I I I think for what I hear,
Emma (1:00:44)
Yeah, I'm so
Scott (1:00:45)
you do a great job is what I'm getting at.
Emma (1:00:47)
thanks, absolutely. I mean, I work really hard with it
Scott (1:00:50)
Yeah.
Emma (1:00:50)
and I care too much about it. And there is a there's something about when you're working with people that you have an intimate relationship with too, that you know, that's talk about that emotional shorthand between an artist and a producer. If you've got like a married couple in a studio and and your spouse says,
I don't like the way you sang that. I think you can do that better. Like a producer could say that and they might get fired. But if you but if you if it if you're the spouse, I think it's just gonna be like, gosh, okay, they're probably right. I don't know.
Scott (1:01:32)
It can
create a little friction though, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Emma (1:01:34)
of course. Yeah. And
I think that's another reason for me not to have Robyn in the studio because if I'm making myself emotionally vulnerable, you know, and trying to tune in a a song, you know, because songs are often, especially for me 'cause I like singing sad songs, they're born out of really tender, delicate spaces.
You don't necessarily want someone in the studio who's been like, Well, I know that's about your mom. You know or you know, or I know that you wrote that about that fight that we had three weeks ago or you know, like it's you know, a little bit of space is probably a good thing.
Scott (1:02:24)
How are you in the studio? Do you are you intent? Does it stress you out to be in there? Do you like to have people sort of around and looking at you through glass as you're doing this? Being vulnerable seems
Emma (1:02:35)
I
Scott (1:02:36)
challenging in those circumstances.
Emma (1:02:38)
I love being in the studio. It's so fun. I mean,
if I had in unlimited funds, I'd be in the studio all the time. It's the best. but I also like the live world too, but I think that it's a little bit scary, but it's that's good.
And and that's b that's one of the joys of being in Nashville too. I mean, that said, you know, when when
In 2020 I I put out a the Dylan Covers record that I did and the the final two songs that I added to that album were both recorded at my house.
Scott (1:03:15)
Mm.
Emma (1:03:17)
on like a super regular Shure microphone sung into a four track recorder. but then I was able to send it to the producer of that record, Patrick Sansone, and he had a home studio and he recorded other you know, he he had the professional skills to make it not sound crazy. But like I mean, you if you're Billie Eilish and her brother Phineas, you can make anything sound cool in
We have the technology now to a bedroom recording in 1996 when I was 15 sounded like a bedroom recording. A bedroom recording in 2026 could could have been recorded at Abbey Road.
Scott (1:04:01)
I wanted to hear about Tiny Ghost. This is your record label and how how did it come to you to start a record label?
Emma (1:04:10)
I
wanted to put out a seven inch of a duet that Robyn and I had recorded. And so I made up a record label to have on the seven inch just so it would look cool. And it was named after our cat Tiny who had passed. And a friend of mine, Bodie, made a really cute little logo with Tiny's perfectly grumpy face on it. And so I had this label, Tiny Ghost. And then Tiny Ghost
stayed dormant. Nothing was really happening with Tiny. and you know, to be honest, in my dream life I had that fantasy that like I'll do this Dylan thing and then maybe a label would like to put it out. And then of course I sent it to a bunch of labels and got the
Crickets. So I was like, I guess if I want if I want to be a recording artist, I am gonna take this label more seriously. So I stepped up and I got into putting out records. And there is a world in which I would like to put out more.
Bands on Tiny Ghost, but I'm also mindful of how much people who work at record labels that work really hard. I have the utmost respect for indie record labels and what they do. and I think that's a good thing as an artist to have. Because you often hear, you know, the sob stories of, and then my label done me dirty, and like, you know, but you know, it's a high
a slog and it's a gamble and you don't know what's gonna take off, you don't know what's gonna be like
magical and what's gonna you know you can totally believe with all your heart and soul that a project is brilliant and deserves a wide audience
Scott (1:06:06)
And
Emma (1:06:08)
but you can't there are no guarantees. but yeah so anyhow I've got this like little record label I put out my stuff, I put out Robyn's stuff. We do it in in the most professional way that we can in that it's got global distribution and sometimes I keep
things niche, you know, I'll just have it on band camp. Like, for example, the seven inch that I'm putting out of Visions of Johanna. That's only for sale on Bandcamp because seven inches are not the most
economically a viable choice for a label to make. So if I wa if I put it in shops, it would just immediately lose me money. But if I sell it myself online, it's fine. but yeah so that's the I in my dream I would sign another band or a couple of bands, but that might be a few years down the track.
Scott (1:07:07)
this has been sort of at the back of my mind since we started talking, Emma. Was Dylan the first artist that you really came to or when you were a a young woman? How what was the how did you get exposed and and find your way to him?
Emma (1:07:24)
How
did I get no? I mean, my first favorite artist was Cindy Lauper, and that was The Girls Just Wanna Have Fun 7 Inch was the first vinyl record I ever owned.
and then I was super into the B-52s cosmic thing. you know, because I'm a kid of the 80s, and then I was really into Sinead O'Connor and Dolores and Dolores O'Riordan the Cranberries. So that
You can s and the Sundays, so you can hear the way that my voice is like getting into these sad lady Irish emotional singers. and then Dylan I didn't really get into until I was probably late teens, early twenties. and I you know, because the first Dylan I knew was the Travelling Wilburys Dylan. That was what that was what was on the charts when
I was a kid. But then, you know, I sort of like anybody who wants to be a singer-songwriter, I think that you at least have to get on nodding terms with the music of Bob Dylan, even
Scott (1:08:33)
Yeah.
Emma (1:08:34)
if you're not gonna like it. I mean, I adore it. and so yeah, in my late late teens, early twenties, I got into Dylan.
you know, I just adore it. There's a big Dylan poster behind me and
Scott (1:08:48)
so you and I, for whatever reason, I don't think I I was born in the late 60s, so I was a little bit ahead of you in the musical era, but we have a very shared musical sense, I think. A taste. Sinead and the cranberries for me and the B-52s are just tops. I love Emily Lou Harris, I love Linda Ronstadt. I'm thinking of Rita Coolidge as well, right? All of those just powerhouse performers from those those earlier years.
Emma (1:09:16)
Yeah, those real singers, singers, you know,
Scott (1:09:19)
Yeah.
Emma (1:09:19)
like it's I it's pretty old fashioned sensibility. You know, it was really ch when I was in my teens, because I was a teenager in the nineties, you know, which is around the Sinead and Cranberries and the Sundays era, one of the things that was most challenging for me was like the the rise of grunge.
And the masculinity of grunge and the way that those songs were sang. I just n I I felt so out out of step with the zeitgeist. I was like, my gosh, I don't know what what's going on here. I'm t I'm too old fashioned for this stuff.
Scott (1:09:58)
so in that era I was working in a radio station, a classic rock radio station. Speaking of a dearth of women, I mean we didn't even play Lita Ford. We played classic rock, some new
Emma (1:10:08)
Mm.
Scott (1:10:08)
stuff, but barely anything that was, you know, unless it was Janis Joplin, it ri or Grace Slick it just didn't make the the airwaves. So I had I had a very different musical education before I got into radio, which was records and old school. And you know, my parents had seventy-eights of
Louis Armstrong and Ferrand and Teicher dueling pianos, right? All kinds of
Emma (1:10:32)
Wow.
Scott (1:10:33)
stuff. And so I had to work the radio gig and find the music that I liked, aside from that, on my own, because I was in a very small town. Those that those records just didn't get played. So cranberries I found on my own. Barbara Streisand was a I love Barbara Streisand. I, you know, I probably shouldn't admit that out loud, but
Emma (1:10:55)
No, she's great
voice. Incredible. Mm-hmm.
Scott (1:10:56)
my God. And and
what a performer, right? I mean, she puts it out there with everything she has. And I I I I love that sort of thing. So the old fashioned sensibility that you describe, I think is that's where I find myself as well. And Grunge did
Emma (1:11:11)
Yeah.
Scott (1:11:11)
the same thing for me. It was like I it's fine, I can get behind Pearl Jam for a little bit and and the rest of it, but
Emma (1:11:18)
it's it's no diss. It's and and I like, you know, I I listened to you know, I had all of those records at the time. But
Scott (1:11:25)
And
Emma (1:11:26)
I guess what I'm saying is like as a fan I could get into it. I could be like,
Scott (1:11:29)
Mm.
Emma (1:11:30)
Yeah, this is cool. But as a sad voiced
Teenage singer,
Scott (1:11:37)
Yeah,
Emma (1:11:38)
I was suddenly like, I don't know where to fit because on one end it's like this very masculine thing, and on the other end it's Brittany Spears, who is my age and like 16 and already famous, and it's hit me, baby, one more time, a great pop song, but it's but I'm also like I I'd go home and like put on my Leonard Cohen CD and be like, gosh, I'm I'm marvelously out of step
Yeah.
Scott (1:12:08)
What have we not talked about that you're listening to today or this
week?
Emma (1:12:12)
I I mean I do listen to a lot of contemporary stuff, so I should probably shout out that there's some really fantastic songwriters that I'm super into on the contemporary trip. I
Scott (1:12:23)
Yeah, yeah.
Emma (1:12:23)
really I love Cass McCombs. His records are fabulous, his songwriting is brilliant, his guitar playing is extraordinary, and he's this dreamy Scorpio man who writes dreamy Scorpio sort of it's descended from Neil Young in a
way but it's also something else entirely.
Scott (1:12:47)
Mm.
Emma (1:12:47)
I'm super into that. my favorite record of last year was a record that Alan Sparhawk from Low did with Trampled by Turtles.
Scott (1:12:59)
oh, right.
Emma (1:13:00)
What are you listening to?
Scott (1:13:00)
think
I this week I have been my god, I am so hardcore Little Feat this week. I don't know what it is, but I
Emma (1:13:09)
Uh-huh.
Scott (1:13:09)
I I it's I've had Willin' playing over and over and over this week just because I l I love that song. It's it's too much to get over. And I don't know if you know Hoyt Axton, he's a long time favorite
Emma (1:13:18)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, huh.
Scott (1:13:23)
of mine, so Life Machine is kind of always in rotation around here.
New stuff. I was listening to What's her name? Marcelle.
Emma (1:13:37)
Marcelle Bradanini? Yeah. wow, she's wonderful. Yeah, she's a friend of mine. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Scott (1:13:38)
Brandonini, that's right. Yeah. She's amazing. my God. I love her
music. It's incredible. I really, really like listening to her. In fact, I found her through the split C D the split seven inch that you guys did together with. Yeah, the
Emma (1:13:54)
Ben Neil Young, yeah.
Scott (1:13:55)
Neil I think you covered Neil Young as well, very well. So
Emma (1:13:57)
Yeah.
that's so nice. I'll tell her. She's a great musician. she used to
Scott (1:14:03)
She is.
Emma (1:14:04)
she's one of the first friends I made in Nashville. and she's mostly, I think, working on film projects at the moment. She's just
Scott (1:14:12)
Mm.
Emma (1:14:13)
made a short film. So she's just a wonderfully creative person.
Scott (1:14:20)
of creative people. Just to see the s things that they come up with, right?
Emma (1:14:25)
Well, I mean it's just like the world is always in varying moments of like despair and destruction and like it's you know, art is a great refuge.
Scott (1:14:40)
is and alternative to what we're seeing, right? To put put out there that there is a different way. We don't have to go through death and destruction
Emma (1:14:49)
Well I think, I think that the most destructive people on the planet are perhaps those who might at some point have had an artistic impulse and then for whatever reason that impulse has been smothered and then people turn to they wanna create something, but the only thing that they can can create is chaos
Scott (1:15:18)
That's a really interesting observation.
Emma (1:15:20)
I th I just think that, you know, we're we're all born to be creative people.
You know, and where and whether that creativity is in making clothes or making dinner or making a garden or making a song or like you know, I think w the world would be a much kinder place if everybody felt entitled to be creative.
Scott (1:15:45)
Words to live by. Let's all focus on the creative.
I really appreciate you staying with me this long, Emma.
Emma (1:15:52)
of course. Thanks for having me. It's great to have a chat.