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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:01.175)
Hello, hello, welcome everyone. We are, it's always so awkward. We are joined today by Stella Gold, they them pronouns. I know Stella through social media. Is that how we came across each other?
Stella (they/them) (00:06.465)
Hi. Hi.
Stella (they/them) (00:21.665)
Yes, that the one, we were just before this talking shit about social media and now I'm like, but then there's some stuff that is good, which is meeting you. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:34.089)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I, you were doing a panel with some other coaches and business owners and it was like, it was called business, not as usual. And I attended and it was great. And then we got connected and then you facilitated one of the kitchen table talks that I did. now, now we're all here. We're all here. So do you want to introduce yourself a little bit?
Stella (they/them) (00:48.747)
Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (00:55.98)
Yeah
Stella (they/them) (01:02.945)
Yes, of course. I'm happy to be here. I am Stella Gold. I am the founder of My Gold Standard. I would firstly describe myself as a non-binary rebirth and wealth coach. I also am a spiritual counselor in my day job.
where I work in hospice, which is one of the, I feel so, I just have the best job ever. And I love what I do in my business too. And my gold standard is really a place where I want to teach folks how to use.
money, wealth, and for folks who are entrepreneurs, so using business as a vessel, an ecosystem for financial solidarity for themselves, but also for the collective. So I'm trying to really teach collective care, community care, from a decolonial lens.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:06.74)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:08.034)
I didn't know that you worked in hospice. I volunteered with hospice in Des Moines, Iowa, where I used to live for years. And it was the most rewarding, beautiful experience. And that was just me going in once a week to be with these folks who are experiencing the end of life and going through that care. And it was amazing. So I love that you do that work.
Stella (they/them) (02:28.03)
Yeah, yeah, that's shift that I've been doing. So I am also a death doula. That's actually how I got started in this work. Was volunteering. I went through the Going with Grace program and started volunteering at a local hospice when I moved out here to Hawaii. It was a way I wanted to give back to the Kapuna over here.
and I, I just loved it. I, yeah, did what you did. I volunteered each week, got to be with people, who are at the end of life.
And I just kept doing it until they were like, hey, we'd love to hire you for this position. It's called spiritual counselor. And you would just essentially do what you're doing now, but on a deeper level because you would see the same patients.
from start to end and it's been really wonderful. So that's like a new layer I'm unfolding even in my business too, because I wanna incorporate some sort of death doula work end of life planning in my business as well. Yeah, so.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:45.058)
I'm yeah, because I'm interested to know what the rebirth part of your job title means for money and I know we're gonna talk about money and I'm sorry to just dive in but I because I love I love hospice I'm just so curious. I know what it did for my relationship with death, but I'm curious what it's done for your relationship with that
Taina Brown she/hers (03:53.826)
Go for it.
Stella (they/them) (03:56.363)
Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (04:03.276)
Yeah, so I'll kind of give a little bit of context for everyone listening here. So back in 2015, I lost my father unexpectedly. That was the first layer of my own rebirth experience. I felt like when he died, I died. That version of me was gone. And what I saw after that and experienced after that was navigating the industry that comes
Taina Brown she/hers (04:25.675)
.
Stella (they/them) (04:32.894)
when someone dies, which is there's the financial industry under that. There's the legal industry. There's the, you know, the IRS and the tax and that whole thing. And it was such a mess for me to navigate without any knowledge. So that's how I got inspired and kind of, I want to say I wasn't, I was thrown into it.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:57.538)
Hmm.
Stella (they/them) (04:57.54)
where I had to figure this out myself just because my mother, you know, she's an immigrant from the Philippines, you know, knew a lot more than I thought, but she also had her limits. She's like, this is out of my, I don't know how to do this, so you must know how to do this. And I'm like, no, I don't. So it started as being very passionate about financial literacy.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:19.434)
.
Stella (they/them) (05:26.956)
That's that's what I got started with in the world of death and Years later I did my trauma of money training I got I did my financial literacy training. I got a lot of experience Which was great but I still felt like the death aspect of money wealth and
Taina Brown she/hers (05:49.614)
Hmm.
Stella (they/them) (05:55.871)
like that bridge hasn't been connected yet in the world of financial literacy, personal finance. And in ways that it did, it wasn't really... I didn't think it was very thoughtful of how the industry navigated it. And so that's what got me into my Death doula training. I wanted to apply that.
to my wealth, my knowledge within the wealth, personal finance, financial literacy space. And with this new layer, I just had always wanted to water my own spirituality. However, as someone who has experienced like religious trauma,
I just really was avoidant of anything related to religion, faith. And once I saw that spirituality can take hold in a multitude of different ways, I started to apply that to my business, my relationship with death, my relationship with life, my relationship with money.
And I really feel like now my relationship with death is really... I just have one. And I actually think a lot of people don't. Because it's scary. You know, even when people are dying at the end of life on their deathbed, they are like, I'm not dying. This isn't happening. I'm not on hospice. And it's not... I don't blame them.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:32.251)
Hmm.
Stella (they/them) (07:47.646)
We don't live in a culture that invites that conversation. Like we should be talking about it every day, you know?
Taina Brown she/hers (07:55.293)
Yeah. How did you... speaking about death is scary, right? When you think about... death forces you to confront how finite you are, And we just... we have this assumption as human beings, call it hubris, whatever, that we are infinite, right? That we're just going to keep going, right? Life just keeps going. So like... how did you come to terms with the finiteness of...
Stella (they/them) (08:05.578)
Yes. Yes.
Stella (they/them) (08:13.812)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:25.255)
being a human to the point where you are now a deaf doula and working as a hospice spiritual counselor. Like, that's a, I imagine that's a long journey. Like that's not like an overnight thing, right?
Stella (they/them) (08:38.932)
Yeah, definitely not. Yeah, I would say for me the finite part is actually my favorite part because I feel that once I accepted that, that's when I could live. Like when my dad died, it was a brutal awakening to, yeah, you like you're here temporarily.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:53.032)
Hmm.
Stella (they/them) (09:08.524)
And he died unexpectedly, so it was really, it wasn't like, oh, he got old and, you know, I got to say goodbye and had all this time with him. Like, he died very unexpectedly. And I was 24, so was young. And I really went, my, the way I, I,
Taina Brown she/hers (09:10.44)
Hmm.
Stella (they/them) (09:31.145)
I entered into the finiteness of life was very messy. I went YOLO on everything and it was messy in a way that it needed to be. It was messy in a way where I needed to process this grief.
I needed to do all the things that you get to have in life, which was make mistakes and turn them into lessons and learn from them and grow from them. So I made a lot of mistakes during that time, which got me closer to what I feel is living a more truer and more authentic version of myself.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:09.194)
or two.
Stella (they/them) (10:21.273)
The reason why I'm able to do that is because I know that this is borrowed time.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:28.692)
Stella, I can relate so much. My brother died in 2010 unexpectedly. mean, in some ways you might expect it because he was a heroin addict, we still you know, he was waiting for treatment. He was waiting for a bed. and I'm sorry for your loss too. But as you know, those losses define us in such important ways and transform us. And that piece of like I wasn't living like I was living.
Stella (they/them) (10:28.8)
Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (10:35.451)
Ugh.
Stella (they/them) (10:40.608)
But still, yeah. Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (10:50.571)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:54.018)
I was being a good girl. I was doing all the things I was supposed to do. They're supposed to make me happy. And it took that for me to like be sh to shake me out of that and to say, wait a minute, this life is short. And like, what do you want it to be? And I think it's the greatest gift I ever received. Would I take my brother back tomorrow? Of course. But it was the, you know, that death. And I hate that it takes that for so many of us. But going through that process, one of the things that we encountered or I encountered was having, like you mentioned, all of the stuff that comes along with having to
Stella (they/them) (10:55.892)
Mm-hmm.
Stella (they/them) (11:10.219)
Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (11:14.635)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:23.842)
deal with the aftermath of a death of a loved one, paying for funeral services, arranging all of that stuff, dealing with social security for his child that was left behind. And like just all of the stuff that so much of that is around finances that I just think so many of us aren't prepared for because we think we're going to live forever because we don't want to confront it. We don't want to think about our own mortality and all of that. And to me, it is disgusting.
Stella (they/them) (11:26.954)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:30.163)
you
Stella (they/them) (11:41.706)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:51.158)
how all of that falls into the hands of the people who are the most grieved by the death, who are in the most fragile, vulnerable state of their life, now have to deal with all of this stuff to be able to like get their loved one, whether it's, know, whatever you do with them, just to deal with their body after death, let alone all of the other things. And it just makes me think about like community and money.
Stella (they/them) (11:56.032)
Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (12:01.195)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:04.064)
.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:18.25)
And I wonder if that's a part of when with what you're like, did that inform how you're showing up now as a money coach or whatever the right title is for what you're doing?
Stella (they/them) (12:18.623)
Mm-hmm.
Stella (they/them) (12:27.146)
Yeah, I...
So many thoughts, so many thoughts. So I would say exactly what you are discussing was my experience. A lot of, and I've seen this, a lot of other people are experiencing this as well. And certain things happen when you avoid that conversation.
You don't really get to have space to grieve or you are making decisions while you are really, really deep in the grief, which is not the best time to make decisions, at least financially. For sure, I can say financially, that's not the time. In addition, I see so many family members in conflict.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:12.688)
Mm-hmm.
Stella (they/them) (13:25.642)
because of the financial aspect, right? They have a loved one die. Let's say they didn't have a will. It all goes to probate. then they're just, probate can be easy. Like for me, it was a pretty, like my dad didn't have a will. It was pretty easeful because we were all on the same page, you know? But not a lot of people are on the same page and they will be.
in conflict with one another and drawing out the grief to a point where it's a grief that is that I feel like can be avoided. It's a grief that isn't really about honoring
know yourself and your in your lost loved ones or each other because you're just so focused on being right or or getting you know making assumptions about what your loved one wanted but they didn't they didn't really specify
Taina Brown she/hers (14:31.204)
Mm-hmm.
Stella (they/them) (14:34.316)
And so I see that a lot and that really sucks to see because I just really feel that if more people had conversations, money can be used as a vehicle, as a resource, as a tool. Not even a tool, I really do see it as a resource to serve.
the community and serve the collective, serve yourself, serve one another. And when you aren't able to have that discussion, you don't really know how to steward it. You don't know how to steward it. Majority of that money can fall back into the government, can fall back into the IRS, taxes, the state.
And so what I like to teach people is to think about their relationship to money and wealth as a legacy, as part of their legacy. It's not the whole part, but it's part of it.
And the more that you see it as something bigger than you, and even like bigger than your loved one, right? Like if you are, if you are privileged enough to inherit generational wealth, you know, how do you want to have that rippled back into community? And I find that a lot of people,
Taina Brown she/hers (15:54.501)
you
Stella (they/them) (16:08.724)
really do care about that when they take the time to think about it. And then they start to think, well, I'm going to be receiving this. I know I'm going to die too. And that's going to be a generational wealth I pass on. How do I want to steward that? So it's conversations like that, that I love having and want to see and hear more of. Yeah, that's, that's, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:35.682)
We're so conditioned to not like the things you don't talk about, right? Politics, religion and money and money is always one of those. it makes me so mad because I find like, I think that's all by design, right? Because it ensures that those of us with marginalized identities are not collectively considering how we grow our wealth and understanding things like collective bargaining, but also just what it looks like to say,
Stella (they/them) (16:48.861)
Absolutely.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:57.068)
Okay.
Stella (they/them) (16:58.08)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:03.278)
that's what's possible. That's what I could ask for. That's what I could demand financially. And also secrets, the secrets around, you know, wealth and growing wealth. So anyway, I think so much of that's by design. I'm sure you agree.
Stella (they/them) (17:13.899)
Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (17:17.876)
It is absolutely by design and I think what can also be what is by design. This is my speculation. Like I'm just gonna be honest, like I'm speculating here. But I find that a lot of people who have anti-capitalist values, they want nothing to do with building wealth.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:42.85)
Hmm.
Stella (they/them) (17:43.309)
They are like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to build wealth because it's on the, like, because building wealth, do have to, one of the ways to do that, and I would say is a vital way is invest in stock market. The stock market has racist roots, right? Like I'm not going to shy away from that. And, and people don't want to.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:02.403)
Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (18:10.38)
And this is the only way you can save for retirement right now because there's no, we don't have pension. We don't have, you know, any of that. And there's just no way to operate under the system without being complicit in harm, whether it be unintentionally or intentionally. Some people are like, yeah, like I'm going to use the system for what it was designed to do because I want to, as we see with all these billionaires. So a lot of people.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:35.372)
Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (18:40.396)
They think that by not doing any of that, they are eliminating harm, which is just not possible under capitalism right now. And actually it harms them more. Because then where does, who gets the upper hand in that scenario? It's the government, it is the state.
It is capitalism, it is these capitalists that we think we're beating the system by avoiding and opting out. But even when you opt out, you're still opted in. It's like one of those contradictions.
So I understand that because I was that person for so long. I was like, want nothing to do with this. I hate money. Money is evil. I don't want to invest like stock markets, racist. I don't. And now I do see it from a perspective of like, I have to do this to survive. And what I do with that return, like,
ROI, right? What is the return of how I want this to ripple back? How can I do a wealth transfer? Or how can I steward this overflow that
once I'm taken care of, right, my needs are met and I have this excess, what can I do with that to redistribute that into community? So that's one of the things that I'm a part of. part of a wealth redistribution circle. We meet every month and we each each of us give $50 and each person receives each month.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:13.644)
Mm-hmm.
Stella (they/them) (20:28.308)
And we don't decide what they do with the money, what I do with the money. It's, we're like, this is for you. You get to do what you please with this. Because that's how it should be.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:41.187)
Yeah, no strings attached. No strings attached. I think that whole anti-capitalist idea of not wanting to have to do anything with capitalism and not building any kind of wealth, that has some insidious ties into Judeo-Christianity too, the way that type of Western religion is embedded in our culture.
Stella (they/them) (20:43.132)
Exactly. Exactly.
Stella (they/them) (21:01.931)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:10.722)
Poverty is piety, right? And so there's this assignation of like morality to money, where it's like, it's not like money is neutral, but what we do with it, right, is where it's an indication of like where our values are. So I'm glad that you brought that up. How do you guide people through the messiness of like undoing a lot of that conditioning?
Stella (they/them) (21:12.33)
Yeah. Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (21:18.89)
Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (21:22.688)
Mm-hmm.
Stella (they/them) (21:40.993)
That's the hardest part. The deconditioning, the decolonizing. Because you have to really practice this radical self-awareness on are these thoughts my own or were they, are they actually from patriarchy? Are they from white supremacy? Where did I get this thought from?
Right? Like you brought up such a good point with Christianity. Right? Wanting to be like, it's almost that poverty is piety. I think about that. And I think about, why was that written? Well, probably because they wanted all the money to go to the church. Because that was, that was, and the more money you gave to the church, the more holy you were.
And I just, I think about that and...
Yeah, it is really, really difficult, right? We are able to be in this position where, we're conscious about that. I would say the way that I do mindset work with someone is from a decolonial lens. They have to know enough to question the system. I'll say that's the first step is like,
Taina Brown she/hers (23:09.345)
Hmm.
Stella (they/them) (23:11.884)
And I'm going to shout out my co-partner, Nadia, of Real You Leadership. She always says question systems before you question yourself. So I would just, that's my invitation to anyone listening here. Ask yourself that, this happening? Is this thought happening because of me or is this the system? Where did this thought come from?
And then to also have an understanding that money is political, it is emotional, it is spiritual, it is connected to everything that we experience as a human being. And even if you are like, well, money is a made-up thing. It is a made-up thing that we as human beings made up. It's an extension of ourselves as a collective.
And it's taken shape in so many different forms. So currency has taken shape as eels, as cowrie shells, as gold, as Parmesan cheese, like so many different ways. And even before that, like pre-colonially...
it was it was value was more negotiated in this barter trade system which I'm like so for I'm like let's go back there let's go back there I love that because it was very conversational like you had to work together to say this is equivalent to that and I feel we both are in agreement so let's trade you know our resources
Taina Brown she/hers (24:51.52)
Mm-hmm.
Stella (they/them) (24:54.41)
So yeah, I would just start there and then I would say the next thing is, is I'm so sick of hearing money mindset shit, like money mindset this, money mindset that. I'm like, I don't want anything to do with your money mindset thought process if it doesn't include class consciousness. Because money mindset has been so co-opted as like this individual thing in the spiritual life coaching and wellness.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:22.208)
Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (25:24.668)
areas like industries and it has it just doesn't talk about class consciousness at all.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:33.366)
I was gonna bring up my favorite quote from Rachel Carr. Well, just, I'm just nodding and nodding, because yes, I agree with all of it. And my favorite quote from Rachel Cargill is maybe you manifested it or maybe it was white privilege, right? This whole white girl bossy space where everything's about like money mindset and manifest your dreams and like, you know, show how you can get to seven and eight figures and all of that kind of bullshit that.
Stella (they/them) (25:35.124)
I see you smiling, so I'm like, I'm like, this is going to be good.
Stella (they/them) (25:47.925)
Yes!
Becky Mollenkamp (25:58.294)
all of us are against and yet, right? Like, so yeah, to all that, that all sucks. And each of us does have an individual relationship with money and with our understanding of money, what money means in our lives, the ways we reject or, you know, allow money to come our way and all of that. So how do you navigate that mind field? You started to get into it, but just a little bit more around that, class consciousness and all of that, because it is a mind field to get out there and talk about.
Stella (they/them) (26:07.87)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:26.45)
individual relationship with money, our beliefs about money, and make sure people understand I'm also not one of those girl bossy, like, money minds that manifest and become a millionaire or whatever it is these days.
Stella (they/them) (26:41.62)
Yeah, so I will...
be completely honest, I am on that journey. I would say I'm like a baby in the journey of class consciousness. Or I'm maybe more like a toddler now, actually. I'm not baby anymore. I'm definitely toddler. I can walk, but it's like a little, you know, wobbly. And I'm learning that for myself because even though I taught money mindset,
Taina Brown she/hers (27:02.271)
You
Taina Brown she/hers (27:08.242)
Wobbly.
Stella (they/them) (27:17.544)
I taught it from like a trauma informed lens. I taught it from a lens of being conscious about race, being conscious about sex and gender and like all these boxes that white supremacy and patriarchy put upon, you know, us folks. So really more focus on identity from an identity lens.
I wouldn't say I was, it was class consciousness, but it was just the foundation. was planting the seeds for that foundation. I didn't have the word class consciousness as a part of my vocabulary yet.
until honestly the last I would say what 2023 so two years and that's when I went through my own complete oh that's my second rebirth period because I had this
Taina Brown she/hers (28:16.158)
Mm.
Stella (they/them) (28:21.214)
relationship with money that was pretty good and my business as well, like I was successful. Like I had finally made it in the realm of entrepreneurship where I was, you know, paying my bills, I was paying myself a salary and I had consistent revenue. You know, I wasn't in six figures yet, but I was making enough to sustain myself.
And I made it and I was on my way. I was really on my way to Six Figures and I...
everything that happened and has been happening in Gaza, in Palestine, everything that I saw while I was traveling, and this is very privileged of me that I had this experience, you know, I went to places like Chile where I did see, you know, what happened there with the genocide under the rule of Pinochet and learned so many things that I didn't know about and going to Vietnam and Cambodia and just all these
Taina Brown she/hers (29:23.787)
.
Stella (they/them) (29:24.19)
places, the Philippines, that's where my my motherland is. And learning everything that I was taught was complete propaganda. And also having to reckon with myself that the way I was teaching financial literacy in my business was this savior complex of I'm gonna save everyone from capitalism because fuck capitalism to being like
Like I can't save anybody from capitalism. We have to do that together.
And so what do I do with that when I don't know how to escape myself? Right? You realize that you've been in the fishbowl this whole time and the water is rank. I would say learning in those places, learning.
helped me get more curious about revolutionaries during those time periods. And even currently now as well, to get more curious about class consciousness. yeah, it really is just like I'm going backwards. I'm learning about history so I can see how I can move forward.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:42.397)
Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (30:50.924)
And yeah, I feel like a lot of us, a lot of us have a hard time looking back because it's already shitty right now and it's like when you look back you're like, it's just more muck. But I feel like if we can look backwards, we can move forward. So yeah, I would say I don't necessarily have like a great all-knowing answer.
But just that I'm in it. I'm in the trenches with y'all and trying to become more class conscious myself and apply that to the work that I do.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:29.829)
Yeah, yeah, that's one of the things that like stood out to me when I first came across your work was that I wasn't hearing that like money mindset type of language from any of the content that you were putting out because there were other money coaches or wealth coaches that I have been following for years still follow still engage with occasionally. And they have good information, but like
Stella (they/them) (31:41.44)
Mm-hmm.
Stella (they/them) (31:55.382)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:57.504)
no amount of money mindset is going to like make it okay for like or no amount of money mindset is gonna make it so someone who's making $7.25 an hour be able to like all of a sudden become like a millionaire when the minimum wage is not going up like corporations are just getting rich you know what i mean so so i really appreciate you bringing that up like if what would you say or like
Stella (they/them) (32:10.635)
Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (32:14.656)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:14.796)
when the.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:25.297)
Where would you tell someone to begin if they're just starting out on understanding that it's not just money mindset, that there needs to be a level of class consciousness, right? Because we do have to critique these systems. We have to understand how these systems operate and that there's no escaping the systems as of today, right? So for someone who is just starting out in that...
Stella (they/them) (32:47.275)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:55.12)
headspace? Like, what do you direct them to? Like what resources are like?
Stella (they/them) (32:56.214)
Mm-hmm.
Stella (they/them) (33:02.058)
I have a book that came to mind and this was when I was baby. So this is great because I read this book when I was baby and this so for all my baby, know, class conscious baddies out there, there's this book called The Some of Us. It's by Heather McKee. Fantastic, fantastic book that is really specific in terms of like statistics.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:07.494)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Stella (they/them) (33:32.157)
studies, research. It is a wealth of knowledge, pun intended, when it comes to our economic system.
And it is from a, I don't know if she uses the word class consciousness, but it is very, very much a class conscious thing. And I think that this is another layer that I'm gonna go into. So there's money mindset that I want nothing to do with if you don't have class consciousness, but there's also on the left, class consciousness that doesn't take into account race.
Right? It doesn't take into account gender. It doesn't take into account like our queer and trans siblings, right? Like I don't like just because you're class conscious doesn't mean that like you are absolved from. Yes. Yeah. You know, like I see why they say that like be if everyone's class conscious then inherently it is going to be intersectional. But it actually really isn't.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:09.457)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:23.311)
are intersectional. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:35.844)
Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (34:36.332)
So that's like my invitation too is, know, for other folks that I would say after the sum of us, you know, I started reading, you know, I read the Communist Manifesto and I'm still, I would say I'm still baby in that field. But I found it informational. I found it...
I found it helpful just to give me language and an understanding of something that is outside of capitalism and is a direct reaction to resisting capitalism. And that's all they had, you know, at that point in time. And so, yeah, I read that just to like get a different understanding because I avoided it. That was another thing I avoided. I was like, I don't want to read fucking Karl Marx.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:11.675)
Mm-hmm.
Stella (they/them) (35:27.744)
Like he's just some white bro, like I don't want to read this shit because I felt like there were a lot of people on the left that are communists that don't take into account being intersectional in their class consciousness. And yeah, and then I...
I was pleasantly surprised, you know, once I read his work and like, okay, like I see what's going on here. And then I, you know, realized like the Black Panther Party, they were Marxists, you know, and so it's like read, read Black Marxist revolutionary work.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:58.84)
Yeah. Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (36:08.746)
Right? So that's another, I would say, resource after the sum of us, like you can add into that. And it doesn't mean that you're going to be a communist. It just, you know, for people that are feeling triggered by that word, because I was for so long, it just means that you're expanding your point of view.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:29.285)
Thanks to the excellent propaganda of capitalist societies.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:29.7)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:33.326)
Right. McCarthyism. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I saw a TikTok a while back where they were talking about like, it was two Black podcasters and they were, I don't even remember the name of the podcast. I wish I did so I could credit them. But they were just talking about how like, you know, people today who are gung-ho about class consciousness, which we should be, right? We don't want to like...
Stella (they/them) (36:59.936)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:02.019)
throw the baby out with the bathwater, but they'll read something like the Communist Manifesto. They'll read Marx, but forget to contextualize it. Karl Marx was a very specific person writing in resistance to capitalism during a very specific time period in a very specific geographical location. And to remove that context, like...
Stella (they/them) (37:13.759)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:31.351)
disallows us the opportunity to be able to one, fully understand what he was talking about, but then also figure out how to apply what he was talking about to the current context that we're in, right? Because what a lot of people will try to do is like take something like that and just map it onto what we're living in today. And that doesn't work, right? It'll fail because it's different. But I like what you said about
Stella (they/them) (37:46.111)
Exactly.
Stella (they/them) (37:54.1)
Yeah, it doesn't fit.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:01.048)
when you brought up the Black Panther Party, yeah, they were completely anti-capitalists. Like, they were Black communists and Black socialists who were in complete resistance to capitalism and didn't have all the answers, but were coming up with answers collectively.
Stella (they/them) (38:08.01)
Yeah. Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (38:22.632)
Yes, and that's a beautiful example of taking right like political theory and applying it to the current conditions that you're living under and doing it as a collective. Right, like they really did right, it was imperfect, but it's going to be imperfect when you're resisting capitalism. I think that that's another thing that I have a tough time swallowing is that like when you're resisting under capitalism.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:34.55)
Yeah, yeah.
Stella (they/them) (38:48.756)
you're really given conditions that are so impossible to be quote unquote good. And I say that in quotes because you know that purity culture it totally is and that morality culture it is from it is it's rooted in Christianity for sure. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:55.373)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:07.598)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:07.746)
And it still shows up, I think, in progressive circles with these ideas that there's only one right way to divest yourself from all of these systems and or to resist these systems when in fact, like you said, it's messy, which is why the show is called messy liberation. It's messy. It's not as simple as just saying, I reject capitalism and I so I therefore I don't invest in the stock market and but you know what, I'm going off the grid and whatever the things are.
Stella (they/them) (39:16.289)
Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (39:23.146)
Yeah. Yes!
Stella (they/them) (39:32.748)
or I put my money under my mattress or like I fake my own death so like the IRS like I get to trick them and I don't have to pay taxes. Highly, highly don't recommend. Yeah, I highly don't recommend it.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:41.474)
Which by the way, everyone listening, we highly recommend you don't do that. We recommend you do not do those things. But yeah, I mean, it's like, it's so ingrained in us, this like purity culture, this right and wrong, this one right way, that it shows up even amongst those who you would think would not necessarily show up that way. But it's that hard, I think, for us to unlearn this stuff that we end up then...
Taina Brown she/hers (39:44.407)
Do not do that.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:06.742)
Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (40:07.404)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:08.706)
cannibalizing ourselves by saying, well, you're not doing the way I think that you should, or that's not the right way to do the thing. And I think it's important to work with people who understand that and get that there's nuance in all of these discussions and that you can be both anti-capitalist and wanting to dismantle these systems and recognize that this life you live is short. Most of us, if we aren't so lucky as to just drop dead one day, are going to need probably a lot of healthcare.
Stella (they/them) (40:15.275)
Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (40:22.005)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:37.76)
End of life care. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:38.784)
Right? Like there's these real things that we need to use money for because unfortunately they don't just accept love and, you know, peace for those things. like understanding how to walk that tricky, messy line is hard. And I think it's important to work with people who get both sides of that, not just the manifest that it'll be great and not just the, chuck all the, like just leave all the systems because that's the only right way. So I like that you're showing up in that middle, even though it's not perfect.
Stella (they/them) (40:39.072)
Yeah. Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (40:46.336)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:01.112)
.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:08.311)
and it can't be.
Stella (they/them) (41:08.606)
Yeah, yeah, and I would say to listeners that divestment can be slow and that slow can be fast. I'm also shouting out my friend Nadia again, because that's something that she really taught me. we had our
collective creation retreat and we met with an indigenous person to guide us through Yerbe Alaguá. It's a spot that is just absolutely beautiful. There's these baths that you can enjoy and bathe in and cool down in and our guide who is Zapotec
He, she asked him like, hey, like his name is Fidel. She's like, hey, like, do you ever get tired of doing this every day and seeing the same thing every day? He said, no, because every day, like I see it change even just two centimeters. And you can only see that by showing up every day and looking. It's just two centimeters of change. And that was life-changing for him to be like, I'm gonna keep showing up and looking.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:09.279)
Hmm.
Stella (they/them) (42:17.548)
And we just talk deeply about that. Like it really stuck with us that, two centimeters. Let that be enough. And let slow be fast. Like slow can be fast, fast can be slow. And so oftentimes, I understand why people are upset because they're like, no, you should do it this way. And this is the right way. Because they're frustrated.
Like I'm not gonna speak for all people, but I find that they're frustrated. They want the system to crash and burn now. And honestly, it should have like yesterday. That is not the reality we live in because to have that be something that happens, which I do believe we are heading in that direction, you need a collective that is most, not all on the same page, but at least on the same page of unifying towards that goal.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:54.955)
Mm-hmm.
Stella (they/them) (43:15.786)
And I don't think there's enough of us yet. And I think that when you are so rigid in what divestment should look like, I don't think there should. I think there's just getting curious and seeing what you can do today. And each day just seeing, hey, what's another way I can divest? And not expecting.
yourself to do everything overnight. So one of the things is I did email like for I'll show share with you a little bit of my divestment. years and years ago, during the pandemic, I decided to completely divest away from Amazon. I have not used Amazon in in about five years. And that was a way that I wanted to divest but that first year
It was slowly because it was the pandemic and there were certain things that I had to use Amazon to get my needs met because we were on lockdown. But now I'm completely divested away from Amazon. I don't shop new anymore. I don't shop new anymore. Of course, like the basic stuff that I absolutely like, you have to buy new, I will do. Yeah, you know, like toilet paper or, you know, but for the most part, like anything
Taina Brown she/hers (44:18.049)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:33.599)
New toilet paper.
Stella (they/them) (44:40.396)
Clothing wise, don't buy new. I always buy vintage, used, thrifted. I'm part of, like I am on Facebook, but only to take part of a buy nothing group. And we all try to organize outside of that. Wealth redistribution circles are great. It's another way to divest. And then the last thing I did was email my, so there's a,
There's a brokerage I work with to hold my Roth IRA. And I emailed them being like, I don't want my money in Tesla at all. Like, and I know you have a fund, but is there another fund that doesn't have Tesla? And actually they responded and they were like, hey, we actually dropped Tesla because of the same reasons that, you know, you're coming to us. This is Carbon Collective. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:37.391)
wow. Okay. Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (45:39.402)
Yeah, my gosh, that's exactly I wanted to email y'all about that. So Carbon Collective.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:43.049)
Yeah, Carbon Collective, it came up during the kitchen table talk, because Stella did like a financial literacy class. And that was one of the things that we were discussing is like Carbon Collective is good, but they're kind of invested in Tesla. So that's a nice update.
Stella (they/them) (45:48.405)
Yes.
Stella (they/them) (45:55.527)
They're, they're one of, yes, they're one of the brokerages that are, are the most divested that you can be under this like rotten system. And they had like, even just, I think it was like less than 5 % of their portfolio in Tesla. And I emailed them being like, Hey, is there any way I could just not be in Tesla? And they're like, actually, we are slowly dropping Tesla from all of our funds. Here are the funds that don't have it at all.
and let us know if you wanna make that change. So it's possible if you just ask. So ask all the questions, practice discernment. That is how you can start your relationship with divesting.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:29.461)
That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:38.559)
to, yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Stella, this conversation has been so good, so good. Thank you so much for joining us today. People can find you at stellagold.com. My gold standard, my gold standard, yeah.
Stella (they/them) (46:53.196)
No, My Gold Standard, mygoldstandard.co. Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:59.113)
That's CO, yeah, which we'll put in the show notes and we'll also link to that, book, The Some of Us that you mentioned. Yeah, thank you again. This was really fruitful.
Stella (they/them) (47:06.58)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:11.946)
I think we could have probably talked for two hours. Sorry that I have to go pick you know, but.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:14.311)
Yeah. No, it's all good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Stella (they/them) (47:15.872)
We could, we could talk forever. This is one of many conversations. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:20.522)
Yeah, we'll have you back. And maybe we can get into more of like the actual investing and some of those kinds of things like the more nitty gritty of it because we didn't get there.
Stella (they/them) (47:27.777)
Yeah, and maybe I'll be in my like teenage era when it comes to class consciousness. Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:34.166)
Perfect. You have some more recommendations. Well, thank you for being here. We appreciate your time.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:36.159)
Fingers crossed.