Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
From the subtleties of typography to the emotional impact of color, and the way everyday objects influence our lives, our guests share their unique perspectives on the power of design. Through candid interviews, we’ll get a closer look at the challenges they’ve faced, the breakthroughs they’ve had, and how design is not just about aesthetics, but about problem-solving, communication, and making an impact.
Join host Rae, as Type Speaks aims to inspire, inform, and showcase the voices behind the visuals.
This podcast is supported by WEGL 91.1 FM, Auburn University’s radio station. weglfm.com
00:00:02 [Speaker 1]
Welcome into Type Speaks, the show where I dive into the stories, struggles, and sparks of inspiration behind great design.
00:00:09 [Speaker 1]
I'm your host, Ray, and I'm gonna be pulling back the curtain on the creative process, but not just the work itself, but the people who make it happen.
00:00:17 [Speaker 1]
Each episode, I sit down with a different creative mind to uncover how they think and everything in between.
00:00:23 [Speaker 1]
So if you're curious about the why behind design and the stories of the people shaping our world one idea at a time, you're in the right place.
00:00:48 [Speaker 2]
So hello.
00:00:49 [Speaker 2]
Hello.
00:00:50 [Speaker 2]
And welcome in to the twenty first of Type Speaks.
00:00:53 [Speaker 2]
I'm here with Martin Venezki.
00:00:56 [Speaker 2]
Martin Venezki is an artist, photographer, and designer who investigates, the connections between objects, forms, drawing, and imagery.
00:01:04 [Speaker 2]
Your practice moves fluidly in scale ranging from small, intimate arrangements of found and discarded materials to large wall spanning installations.
00:01:12 [Speaker 2]
You said that would be a good description of you?
00:01:15 [Speaker 3]
I think so.
00:01:15 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:01:16 [Speaker 3]
I wrote that myself.
00:01:17 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:01:17 [Speaker 2]
I found it from your website.
00:01:20 [Speaker 2]
Anything you wanna add to that?
00:01:23 [Speaker 3]
I do all those things simultaneously, and a lot of projects use many different disciplines as I'm working.
00:01:32 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:01:32 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:01:33 [Speaker 2]
So I'm just gonna go ahead and get into the questions.
00:01:35 [Speaker 2]
I I typically I have pretty long questions, and you said yesterday when we talked, you you want more q and a style questions.
00:01:42 [Speaker 3]
Sure.
00:01:43 [Speaker 2]
So I decided to do that because you mentioned that.
00:01:46 [Speaker 2]
So I went to your talk yesterday, and I was very inspired.
00:01:51 [Speaker 2]
I loved all your work, obviously.
00:01:52 [Speaker 2]
It's why you're here because it's kind of a selfish thing for me to have on, you know, so I can talk to them.
00:01:57 [Speaker 2]
Uh-huh.
00:01:57 [Speaker 2]
But one of the things that I was super like, you talked at the beginning of it, and you kind of phased past it, but I kinda wanna investigate it.
00:02:06 [Speaker 2]
You talked about, you gave objects dignity when you were working with them.
00:02:10 [Speaker 3]
Right.
00:02:11 [Speaker 2]
And that was a very interesting point because I hadn't really heard objects be given that kind of space before.
00:02:17 [Speaker 2]
So what does that mean to you when you're giving objects dignity in your work?
00:02:21 [Speaker 3]
Well, most of the objects I find are from thrift stores, or they're discarded Mhmm.
00:02:26 [Speaker 3]
Or they don't half price on shelves.
00:02:30 [Speaker 3]
They're offcuts from, like, metal fabricators and all.
00:02:34 [Speaker 3]
And I like to buy those.
00:02:35 [Speaker 3]
I like to bring those with me to the studio.
00:02:39 [Speaker 3]
And then I I treat them in a sense in in when I put them together as as if they're actors on the stage.
00:02:46 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:02:47 [Speaker 3]
And how I like them, how I I try to try to give them the starring role, where they're used to being, let's say, at the bottom of the bin in the discount store, suddenly, they become the celebrities, I so so to speak.
00:03:02 [Speaker 3]
And a lot of them are maybe scratched up or stained, and I don't try to hide that.
00:03:07 [Speaker 3]
I like that to be a part of knowing people knowing that they've had a history and they've had a previous life, and now they're making their their big comeback.
00:03:16 [Speaker 2]
This is something I don't have written down, but I've kind of been thinking about it.
00:03:19 [Speaker 2]
You you talk a lot about your kind of practice in, like, terms of filmmaking, like, accurate giving objects, like, terms like actor Yeah.
00:03:27 [Speaker 2]
Or, like like, the shots or, like, how you arrange them.
00:03:31 [Speaker 2]
Is that kind of something you actively think about is, like, in terms of, like, filmmaking in a sense?
00:03:35 [Speaker 2]
I know it's kind of a weird question.
00:03:36 [Speaker 3]
But Sure.
00:03:37 [Speaker 3]
Well, I I the goal in the work I do is to make it look as if the objects, the type, whatever I'm working with design themselves, that they made the decisions about what their relationship is gonna be, and I was merely in the background.
00:03:53 [Speaker 3]
But that's very much like a filmmaker or director.
00:03:57 [Speaker 3]
You know that the actors on screen, have been given scripts, and they're lighting people behind them and all.
00:04:04 [Speaker 3]
But what you wanna do is to create the illusion as if these people are truly talking to each other in this space.
00:04:11 [Speaker 3]
So if I can someway convince people that these objects have their own life force, they're they have somewhat their own autonomy within the image.
00:04:23 [Speaker 3]
That to me makes the work successful.
00:04:26 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:04:26 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:04:27 [Speaker 2]
I you were talking about that yesterday in kind of, like, manipulating the objects again to, like, make them have their own space.
00:04:36 [Speaker 2]
That's kind of different than our own.
00:04:37 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:04:37 [Speaker 2]
I think I think I wrote in a quote where a space where the viewer doesn't know quite where they are.
00:04:42 [Speaker 2]
And I really liked that because I think a lot of us try to be very a lot of younger designers try to be very straightforward in what we're creating.
00:04:49 [Speaker 2]
Like, this is where it's at.
00:04:50 [Speaker 2]
This is where it's stationed, and I want the viewer to see it exactly like this.
00:04:54 [Speaker 2]
But there's almost a freedom in kind of allowing the objects to kind of make their own space in a sense.
00:04:59 [Speaker 2]
It's kind of how I took it.
00:05:01 [Speaker 2]
So I kinda wanted you to expand on letting like, how how to, like, communicate to the viewer something new and different in the space.
00:05:11 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:05:11 [Speaker 3]
It's not it's not just that the objects create their own that the designer takes into account the viewer as a participant.
00:05:21 [Speaker 3]
It's like a filmmaker needs to take into account the film goer.
00:05:26 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:05:26 [Speaker 3]
And so that there becomes a relationship between you and the page as a space and the objects on the page as as not just being not just sitting on a page, but having that relationship.
00:05:40 [Speaker 3]
And so when when the viewer is looking at this work or looking at the image, places the viewer in relationship, meaning you're in the same room as that object, or you're observing it through a window, or you are walking towards the object, or that object is coming at you.
00:06:00 [Speaker 3]
All of these things can create this strong emotional sensibility with the viewer to the material, and I think designers often forget that component of it.
00:06:12 [Speaker 3]
They're trying to make nice compositions as opposed to trying to create a connection between the the viewer and and the material.
00:06:21 [Speaker 2]
I have a connection about, like, materiality.
00:06:23 [Speaker 2]
When I was in high school, I was able to meet Nick Cave, who does these really cool sound suits.
00:06:28 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:06:28 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:06:28 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:06:29 [Speaker 2]
They're super amazing.
00:06:30 [Speaker 3]
Cranbrook Rad.
00:06:31 [Speaker 2]
He was?
00:06:31 [Speaker 2]
I didn't know that.
00:06:32 [Speaker 3]
Yes.
00:06:32 [Speaker 3]
He
00:06:32 [Speaker 2]
was.
00:06:33 [Speaker 2]
But, his work is super amazing.
00:06:35 [Speaker 2]
If the listeners have never seen it, it's it's amazing work.
00:06:38 [Speaker 2]
But he also talked about, kind of letting the material almost speak for itself in a sense.
00:06:45 [Speaker 2]
And I think, at least what I've seen, a lot of people try to kind of cram the work for them and not allowing the material to kind of work with them in a sense.
00:06:54 [Speaker 2]
They're trying to kind of make it a way that it isn't.
00:06:58 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:06:58 [Speaker 2]
I thought that was very interesting in your work of kind of letting the material speak for itself.
00:07:02 [Speaker 2]
You're you're manipulating it, obviously, and and producing an image, but you're letting it kind of stay that object and speak to the viewer.
00:07:11 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:07:11 [Speaker 3]
Well, a lot of what I do and a lot of what I teach actually is to really look closely at objects and materials to find out what is natural condition.
00:07:22 [Speaker 3]
What is it that they wanna do?
00:07:25 [Speaker 3]
And you you have to inspect it.
00:07:27 [Speaker 3]
You have to really, spend time with it.
00:07:30 [Speaker 3]
You can you can take any material and turn it into a thing that you wanted to if you really want to.
00:07:36 [Speaker 3]
But I find it much more interesting to to try to understand certain material is more flexible than others.
00:07:42 [Speaker 3]
Certain material makes sense to carve or to scratch than others.
00:07:47 [Speaker 3]
Certain material, you can bend.
00:07:50 [Speaker 3]
Some of the early photographer doing when I went back to school is just looking at pieces of paper and watching how they fall and dropping them onto a set and letting them land where they're gonna land and accepting that as the way that paper wants to be within that setting.
00:08:09 [Speaker 3]
I think there's a there's a there's a beauty to that, but there's also a kind of well, back to the idea of dignity.
00:08:17 [Speaker 3]
You're not embarrassing the paper by telling it to be something else.
00:08:21 [Speaker 3]
You're saying, I I appreciate you.
00:08:24 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:08:26 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:08:27 [Speaker 2]
I I didn't you didn't say this, but I imagine you have a lot of fun when you're working on your projects and kind of you have all these objects you're just kind of letting kind of play together in a way?
00:08:38 [Speaker 3]
Well, I want it to look that way.
00:08:39 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:08:40 [Speaker 3]
You know, that's that's that's the whole goal.
00:08:42 [Speaker 3]
Again, you wanted to turn it into a playground as if the objects are encountering each other.
00:08:48 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:08:49 [Speaker 3]
Often that takes a lot of work, you know, behind the scenes to get that to happen.
00:08:54 [Speaker 3]
So as many times as it may look like I'm just having fun, like, I may have to drop that piece of paper 30 times and get very frustrated at it, for for for that to work.
00:09:06 [Speaker 3]
So, yeah.
00:09:07 [Speaker 3]
It's fun.
00:09:08 [Speaker 3]
And I'm also when I'm working on all of that, I'm usually talking out loud to the objects or to myself or to what I wanna do.
00:09:16 [Speaker 3]
I I tend to work in isolation, so it's okay to do that.
00:09:20 [Speaker 3]
And so it it becomes a kind of act.
00:09:23 [Speaker 3]
The whole thing becomes a sort of performance, from gathering the materials that I'm gonna use to actually putting them on set.
00:09:31 [Speaker 3]
And keep in mind, I don't know what I'm gonna do when I gather the materials that I'm gonna work with.
00:09:37 [Speaker 3]
I haven't determined what's gonna happen.
00:09:39 [Speaker 3]
So often, the piece of paper falls because I dropped it, not because I intentionally wanted it to fall.
00:09:46 [Speaker 3]
So things do tend to fall.
00:09:48 [Speaker 3]
Things tend to overlap each other.
00:09:50 [Speaker 3]
And what I need to do when I'm working is to be intensely observant.
00:09:55 [Speaker 3]
So when things inadvertently land on each other, to be able to stop and say, there, let me capture that.
00:10:03 [Speaker 3]
Let me capture that relationship that's going on.
00:10:06 [Speaker 3]
So it is it is fun, but it does it involve a lot of concentration of everything that's going on all around me.
00:10:14 [Speaker 2]
When talking about your process, you mentioned the digital stage isn't always the final step.
00:10:19 [Speaker 3]
Right.
00:10:20 [Speaker 3]
And I
00:10:20 [Speaker 2]
thought that was really interesting because I think I've fallen in that pit like, that pitfall where it's like, well, it's I'm putting it in my computer.
00:10:26 [Speaker 2]
It means this this is the final step.
00:10:28 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:10:29 [Speaker 2]
So how did you kind of discover that process in, like, having it just be, like, another tool?
00:10:37 [Speaker 3]
Well, I don't know if it was a discovery so much.
00:10:40 [Speaker 3]
In graphic you know, most of the graphic design I have done is in book design.
00:10:44 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:10:44 [Speaker 3]
And in that case, yes, the final result is are digital pages that then get printed.
00:10:50 [Speaker 3]
At least they are these days.
00:10:52 [Speaker 3]
Back when I first started, that wasn't the case.
00:10:55 [Speaker 3]
In fact, they were all pay stubs that you then send the boards out that then get photographed and then turn into printing, but that's beside the point.
00:11:04 [Speaker 3]
But, you know, at at a certain point, you might take what you did.
00:11:08 [Speaker 3]
You you might print out the page and then decide you wanted a mark, or you wanted to cut it up and try other things.
00:11:15 [Speaker 3]
And particularly when I started to work in photography, the digital became just an intermediary that you would then print it out and, say, refotograph it
00:11:26 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:11:26 [Speaker 3]
Perhaps, and turn it back into a picture or to fold it up and turn it into a three-dimensional object.
00:11:34 [Speaker 3]
And I and and what I found and I think a lot of this began a a a lot of this interest in abstraction and and working in these processes began when I started teach and watching what the students were doing.
00:11:46 [Speaker 3]
And seeing that, for one thing, the students often just relied on that digital.
00:11:49 [Speaker 3]
And in my challenging them to continue with the work outside of the outside of the computer and to print it out, and they'll work with the the printouts and see what's gonna happen.
00:12:02 [Speaker 3]
So by challenging the students, it kind of forced me to also challenge myself and do the same thing.
00:12:08 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:12:08 [Speaker 2]
I was really interested in, like, your work being so cross discipline across so many different, like, media types.
00:12:15 [Speaker 2]
We'll layer a bunch on top of each other with, like, hand on drawings, digital photography, and then you add more drawings on top of that.
00:12:21 [Speaker 2]
To me, that was such a interesting process, because I think it breaks the kind of the normal progression we see in design and, like, how at least I was, like, thinking about how to make something, you know, where it's, like, sketch, then digital, and then bam, you're finished.
00:12:35 [Speaker 2]
But it's like, no.
00:12:36 [Speaker 2]
There's a you can you can change and add and keep adding and have fun with I keep saying fun because I like to have fun with my projects.
00:12:43 [Speaker 3]
That's fine.
00:12:43 [Speaker 2]
It's a per it's a personal thing.
00:12:46 [Speaker 2]
But you're talking about working cross disciplinary.
00:12:49 [Speaker 2]
And yesterday, I think you said something along the lines of working across disciplines is where things happen
00:12:55 [Speaker 3]
Yes.
00:12:55 [Speaker 2]
Which was very fun to me.
00:12:57 [Speaker 2]
So kind of what freedom does that kind of give an artist or designer?
00:13:01 [Speaker 3]
The freedom not to be able to predict the end result.
00:13:05 [Speaker 3]
Designers tend to always wanna know how it's gonna look in the end.
00:13:10 [Speaker 3]
And because of that, you said when you were just talking there, you said a word that's very evil to me, which is the sketch, because I do not like to sketch ideas out.
00:13:22 [Speaker 3]
I do not like to try to sketch what I imagine the endpoint would be.
00:13:26 [Speaker 3]
And when I work with students in fact, I was doing a workshop earlier today pointing out at the end of the couple of hours that they were working, saying all the results you got, you never would have been able to sketch out in your mind, out onto paper in a million years.
00:13:42 [Speaker 3]
It all happened through process, through seeing what the objects were, what they were doing, and observing the and then taking the pictures.
00:13:52 [Speaker 3]
In this case, it was photography and surprising yourself with what starts to happen.
00:13:58 [Speaker 3]
And that allowing that to happen, and when you cross disciplines particularly, it always keeps you from being able to predict.
00:14:07 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:14:07 [Speaker 3]
You know, when when something moves from being an object to be being photographed, you don't always know how the camera is gonna treat it, especially if you start using odd lighting and things.
00:14:17 [Speaker 3]
And so I I I always like to keep myself, not quite sure how the end is gonna be.
00:14:25 [Speaker 3]
And, like, when I do these large installations, I bring thousands of photographs on-site, create it right there in the gallery.
00:14:34 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:14:34 [Speaker 3]
I don't have any sketches ahead of time.
00:14:36 [Speaker 3]
I am just, put one image up and then make a decision and then that.
00:14:41 [Speaker 3]
So I think the idea of of the work being a series of decisions that happen in response to what you've done the moment before, I think is really exciting.
00:14:53 [Speaker 3]
It turns the work into literally a conversation Mhmm.
00:14:56 [Speaker 3]
Between you and the result back and forth.
00:14:59 [Speaker 3]
Otherwise, you're just trying to force the elements into the thing you were imagining, and you're not satisfied until it looks like what you had in your head.
00:15:07 [Speaker 3]
So that's, you know, that it's the way I work now.
00:15:10 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:15:10 [Speaker 3]
A lot of other designers really do like sketching, and they do a great job with it.
00:15:15 [Speaker 3]
And I'm never saying, at least for other designers, that sketching is wrong.
00:15:21 [Speaker 3]
All I'm saying is particularly within education, it's really valuable for for students to see that there are other methods, other alternatives besides that.
00:15:32 [Speaker 3]
So if sketching is what they really like, well, give this a chance.
00:15:36 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:15:36 [Speaker 3]
You can always you already know how to sketch.
00:15:38 [Speaker 3]
You can always go back to that.
00:15:39 [Speaker 3]
But let's try something where you don't know.
00:15:41 [Speaker 3]
You can't try to visualize the end result.
00:15:45 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:15:45 [Speaker 2]
I liked the term conversation with the with the process.
00:15:48 [Speaker 2]
Because I feel like it's most of the time more like we're trying to, like, force it and, like, create and, like, just make it work, but the conversation is where new things kind of arrive and become become new.
00:16:00 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:16:01 [Speaker 2]
We wouldn't ever have thought about before.
00:16:03 [Speaker 2]
I liked that.
00:16:04 [Speaker 2]
I kinda wanna piggyback off of about your installations.
00:16:08 [Speaker 2]
In the q and a yesterday, someone asked something about the installations, and you mentioned sometimes when something is too beautiful, you'll just put something in the middle of it to, like, disrupt it.
00:16:17 [Speaker 3]
Yes.
00:16:18 [Speaker 2]
I thought that was really interesting.
00:16:19 [Speaker 2]
Like, in my head, I was like, why why would you disrupt that beauty in in in a in a sense?
00:16:25 [Speaker 3]
Well, beauty or pretty.
00:16:27 [Speaker 3]
When I say it's starting to look too pretty, I think that's what I at least that's what I meant.
00:16:33 [Speaker 3]
I I feel that when something looks too pretty, that's all people are responding to, and they're not getting a sense of the form that's going on.
00:16:41 [Speaker 3]
And also, it's easy to become very self satisfied when something just looks nice.
00:16:47 [Speaker 3]
And and so you can often make something much more powerful by starting to push against the niceness.
00:16:54 [Speaker 3]
Because niceness and prettiness are kind of easy, because they're based on sort of generally accepted norms.
00:17:01 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:17:01 [Speaker 3]
And I I just tend to bristle at that a lot.
00:17:05 [Speaker 3]
I think that's just too easy, particularly in photography.
00:17:08 [Speaker 3]
It's too easy to make pictures and nice pictures.
00:17:12 [Speaker 3]
We've seen them a million times.
00:17:13 [Speaker 3]
They tend to always be repeating something we've seen before.
00:17:17 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:17:17 [Speaker 3]
Right?
00:17:18 [Speaker 3]
A nice landscape, a nice mountain, a nice sunset.
00:17:21 [Speaker 3]
We know what those look like already.
00:17:23 [Speaker 3]
We've seen it a million times.
00:17:24 [Speaker 3]
But disturbing pictures, things that where things aren't going quite as well as they might, those to me are much more interesting.
00:17:35 [Speaker 2]
How, like, how do you find that, like, beauty and that disruption kind of can work together sometimes?
00:17:42 [Speaker 3]
Well, I think disruption can is beauty in many ways.
00:17:46 [Speaker 3]
It's prettiness, say, that's been pushed against something Mhmm.
00:17:50 [Speaker 3]
Or challenged, a bit.
00:17:54 [Speaker 3]
And it that's a it that's it's a good question about how how does that disruption actually well, I would say it enhances the experience of the viewer.
00:18:06 [Speaker 3]
It doesn't necessarily make it more relaxing for sure, but that isn't my goal.
00:18:13 [Speaker 3]
Often, my goal is to disrupt the viewer, to to challenge them, or, what I I like to say is to create a conundrum.
00:18:21 [Speaker 3]
Like, they don't quite get what is happening here, where am I situated when I'm looking at this.
00:18:27 [Speaker 3]
When you're looking at a sunset, you know exactly where you're situated.
00:18:30 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:18:30 [Speaker 3]
Right?
00:18:31 [Speaker 3]
You're you're sitting on a deck drinking a martini watching the sunset.
00:18:36 [Speaker 3]
Everything is blissful and happy.
00:18:38 [Speaker 3]
But I would prefer that that deck that you're sitting on be maybe wobbly.
00:18:43 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:18:43 [Speaker 3]
And maybe the the drink that you're drinking has too much of an effect and is starting to disturb the sunset you're looking at.
00:18:51 [Speaker 3]
I I think that all of that becomes more more curious and interesting because you haven't seen that before.
00:18:57 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:18:58 [Speaker 2]
So when I I had this I always have this question when working kind of dis disrupting the viewer and, like, almost sometimes bothering the viewer.
00:19:08 [Speaker 2]
Because that that's there's a there's an interest, like, when I'm at an art museum, I'm gonna look at the stuff that kinda looks a little weird.
00:19:14 [Speaker 2]
I'm gonna spend more time than, say, the beautiful painting of of just a woman.
00:19:19 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:19:19 [Speaker 2]
Because I wanna understand what's going on with the with the weird one.
00:19:22 [Speaker 2]
I'm saying weird very lovingly, in a sense.
00:19:24 [Speaker 2]
But is there almost too far in going in that?
00:19:28 [Speaker 2]
And, like, how do you know when to how do you know when that stop is of, like when is it too too much of a disruption to the viewer?
00:19:37 [Speaker 3]
When you're just trying to shock them Mhmm.
00:19:39 [Speaker 3]
And there's no particular reason for it, or you're just being weird because you're you're being a bright and and and I I find that really annoying.
00:19:50 [Speaker 3]
And and when you're being self consciously weird as opposed to having a reason.
00:19:55 [Speaker 3]
For example, it's weird because the table and the box are doing something together.
00:20:02 [Speaker 3]
In other words, the weirdness comes from the conditions of the of the play that's going on and not just, I'm just gonna make things weird.
00:20:11 [Speaker 3]
It's very easy to make things weird or to make things ugly or to make things aggressive.
00:20:17 [Speaker 3]
It's it's a lot harder to make it feel like that weirdness or aggression or whatever it is comes from within the thing you're looking at as opposed to something that's applied.
00:20:29 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:20:29 [Speaker 3]
Applying it to things is very easy, but having it become this natural outcome is a lot more challenging.
00:20:40 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:20:41 [Speaker 2]
I just I just I I like that answer a lot because I I find that a lot with work.
00:20:47 [Speaker 2]
It's like, you can tell when it's just shocking to be shocking versus you're trying to have the the viewer be a participant in thinking about the work.
00:20:56 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:20:56 [Speaker 2]
I think that's a very you can kind of
00:20:59 [Speaker 3]
tell that when when experienced.
00:21:01 [Speaker 3]
Well, you can you know, in in lots of culture, like in movies, you can kind of tell when they just throw in something something bloody and creepy because they know that that that's what this audience wants or a chase scene that has absolutely no relevance to anything in the story.
00:21:17 [Speaker 3]
You know, those really bother me.
00:21:19 [Speaker 3]
But you want the chase.
00:21:21 [Speaker 3]
You want whatever is happening to come out of the nature of the characters, who the characters are or the situation they're in, and so there is this natural way that that's happening.
00:21:32 [Speaker 3]
And it's true in photography, painting, design, all all of these things.
00:21:38 [Speaker 2]
I'm I'm just gonna put it out there.
00:21:39 [Speaker 2]
Are you a big fan of movies?
00:21:41 [Speaker 3]
I am.
00:21:42 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:21:43 [Speaker 3]
But it depends.
00:21:44 [Speaker 3]
It depends on the guy.
00:21:46 [Speaker 3]
Not in all kinds of movies.
00:21:47 [Speaker 3]
So What's your favorite movie?
00:21:50 [Speaker 3]
My favorite movie ever?
00:21:51 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:21:52 [Speaker 3]
Nashville.
00:21:53 [Speaker 3]
Robert Altman's Nashville.
00:21:54 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:21:55 [Speaker 3]
It's an amazing movie.
00:21:57 [Speaker 3]
And talk about a movie that is organic.
00:22:01 [Speaker 3]
He I I now I'm gonna go into a whole thing of the movie, but but I I love the movie.
00:22:06 [Speaker 3]
I it's the only movie I've seen many times.
00:22:12 [Speaker 3]
He put the the characters in Nashville, the the actors, and uses a lot of actors, and they just rehearsed in character for a very long time, just with each other and just developing their scenes.
00:22:29 [Speaker 3]
And then when it came time to actually make the movie, he just let them go.
00:22:33 [Speaker 3]
There wasn't a lot of things were unscripted, general ideas, and they were all pretty much improving it and creating their characters and creating the relationships with each other.
00:22:44 [Speaker 3]
They all wrote their own songs and sang their own songs within it, and it is just amazing to watch.
00:22:51 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:22:52 [Speaker 3]
And that was one of the things that Robert Altman always liked to do.
00:22:55 [Speaker 3]
And he he gave a lot of respect to the characters, and then you'll just let them go.
00:23:00 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:23:01 [Speaker 3]
And if you haven't seen the movie, now
00:23:03 [Speaker 2]
I have to now because you've
00:23:04 [Speaker 3]
seen it
00:23:05 [Speaker 2]
so much.
00:23:05 [Speaker 3]
It's not the easiest thing dreaming.
00:23:08 [Speaker 3]
A lot of Altman's movies, they come and go as far as being streamable or not.
00:23:14 [Speaker 3]
But even if you have to rent it, do that for me.
00:23:17 [Speaker 3]
Just for me.
00:23:18 [Speaker 2]
I will.
00:23:18 [Speaker 2]
I promise.
00:23:19 [Speaker 3]
Thank you.
00:23:19 [Speaker 2]
I'm a I also like a good a good movie, a good film.
00:23:23 [Speaker 2]
Oh, alright.
00:23:25 [Speaker 2]
But switching away from movies, because this is a design podcast, even though movies are incredibly designed in every aspect.
00:23:31 [Speaker 3]
Of course.
00:23:32 [Speaker 2]
But I wanna talk about type.
00:23:34 [Speaker 2]
Oh.
00:23:34 [Speaker 2]
Because I love type, but you didn't really go into it yesterday.
00:23:37 [Speaker 3]
Not not into it.
00:23:38 [Speaker 3]
In other lectures, I did.
00:23:39 [Speaker 2]
I wasn't there.
00:23:40 [Speaker 2]
So I get to ask about it now.
00:23:41 [Speaker 2]
Alright.
00:23:44 [Speaker 2]
You mentioned, using type as a material Mhmm.
00:23:47 [Speaker 2]
Which I found very interesting because I think, again, a lot a lot of people just see type as something to be very legible and just, like, you have to have it be this one way and no other way.
00:23:57 [Speaker 2]
But how does kind of using it as a material change how you work with type?
00:24:02 [Speaker 3]
Oh, well, the idea that you can photograph it Mhmm.
00:24:06 [Speaker 3]
Even if it's just printed on paper and a lot of what show at the end.
00:24:10 [Speaker 3]
Right?
00:24:11 [Speaker 3]
And that those the word photo, I I photographed.
00:24:16 [Speaker 3]
And it was, for the most part, printed on paper.
00:24:18 [Speaker 3]
So in some cases, it was printed on transparent material, but then intersecting that with glass and plastic and pieces of wood and metal and mirrors, suddenly changes the nature of type into something malleable and something as an object.
00:24:34 [Speaker 3]
And I even brought it back to when you were a very small child, you'd be playing with blocks letter letter blocks, which is a typical toy.
00:24:44 [Speaker 3]
But there, when you're first brought up, you think of type as objects that you can hold and you can move around, you can stack.
00:24:53 [Speaker 3]
And then at some point, that disappears.
00:24:55 [Speaker 3]
But I'd like to bring that back and start to think of it in in a material component.
00:25:00 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:25:02 [Speaker 2]
I was trying to think how to ask a question about, like, type in the three d space Mhmm.
00:25:06 [Speaker 2]
And I can't quite find the wording.
00:25:08 [Speaker 2]
Like, when you like, when you're having, like, type as an object, I, like it's more of a of a texture rather than, like, a readability thing.
00:25:16 [Speaker 2]
But, like, I think playing with that also can work with the viewer kind of being a lot more interested in what's going on.
00:25:23 [Speaker 2]
Because, like, I think our brains want to read type no matter kind of where it is in that kind of interaction between it not being as legible but still recognizable.
00:25:32 [Speaker 2]
Could be an interesting Sure.
00:25:35 [Speaker 3]
And and the fact that, you know, some of the images of the type were not readable, I understand, but there's no reason that it can't be completely readable.
00:25:44 [Speaker 3]
In fact, you look at signage.
00:25:46 [Speaker 3]
So much of it is three-dimensional.
00:25:48 [Speaker 3]
Those are objects, but the signage is meant to be read.
00:25:51 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:25:51 [Speaker 3]
Right?
00:25:52 [Speaker 3]
Even, like, a stop sign is an object and has material, but the idea isn't to obscure it.
00:25:57 [Speaker 3]
It's to make it very readable.
00:25:59 [Speaker 3]
So there, it runs the entire range from absolutely readable and essential to completely obscure and really based on material and form.
00:26:10 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:26:10 [Speaker 3]
And I I kind of like working in that total range.
00:26:13 [Speaker 3]
When I when I'm exploring when I'm exploring, if I'm working on a book or something, then, yeah, obviously, readability is is pretty important to me.
00:26:23 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:26:23 [Speaker 2]
When using type as material, does, like, the meaning of the type of the word become separate, secondary, or does it operate kind of differently?
00:26:36 [Speaker 3]
You know, one of the interesting things I do sometimes is to take three-dimensional letters, which you can buy, you know, even in signage stores and things.
00:26:45 [Speaker 3]
And coming up really close and photographing, photograph just the angles or the curve.
00:26:52 [Speaker 3]
And what always surprises me is when you look at those photographs, you can tell that it's a letter for other people, and there's really only a curve.
00:27:00 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:27:00 [Speaker 3]
They know that it comes from a letter.
00:27:02 [Speaker 3]
And I think, isn't that interesting that we are so tuned to what are the ways that letters curve?
00:27:08 [Speaker 3]
What are the what are the kinds of angles that come into play that even if that's all you see is just a small section of a letter, you can often tell that that is a letter.
00:27:18 [Speaker 3]
Now you may not be able to it it may not be readable or or they usually can tell what the letter is, but it doesn't there's no word attached to it.
00:27:26 [Speaker 3]
But the fact that we respond so immediate to, just the angles and forms that a a letter has.
00:27:35 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:27:37 [Speaker 2]
On that, I I really liked at the beginning, you were working with a a, like, a landscape company or a landscape architecture company.
00:27:44 [Speaker 3]
That's right.
00:27:45 [Speaker 2]
And you mentioned your final outcome having a sensibility of, like, alluding to landscape and stuff without direct imagery.
00:27:54 [Speaker 3]
Yes.
00:27:54 [Speaker 2]
And I really liked that.
00:27:56 [Speaker 2]
I think that connects to, like, the the letter forms kind of being still recognizable, but, in or zoomed out or kind
00:28:02 [Speaker 3]
of or or
00:28:03 [Speaker 1]
messed
00:28:03 [Speaker 2]
with.
00:28:05 [Speaker 2]
I think, like, there's a I think a lot of designers can get stuck in being so direct in what they wanna present to an audience.
00:28:16 [Speaker 2]
Like, if you need, you know, if you need, like, a logo for anything, you're like, well, I have to have it be what the title is.
00:28:23 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:28:23 [Speaker 2]
It has to be what the company name is, and it has to be the colors that are exactly what, you know, we think of when we think of that.
00:28:31 [Speaker 2]
So how do you kind of find that sensibility without being too direct, but still our brains can understand and kind of see the connections.
00:28:41 [Speaker 3]
Well, in in in that case, it it came with playing with materials and just constantly moving the materials until something started to happen.
00:28:51 [Speaker 3]
And there was no guarantee it was gonna work, right, when I started to do it.
00:28:54 [Speaker 3]
It's almost like if if you just take music as an example, it's the difference between, like, you're doing a poster for a concert, let's say, a classical concert, and you stirs the violins and pianos on the poster Mhmm.
00:29:08 [Speaker 3]
As opposed to try to think deeply about what is music, and music as rhythm and interval, and and these kinds of things.
00:29:15 [Speaker 3]
And how do you indicate rhythm and interval, and picture that as opposed to just the things that make the music.
00:29:24 [Speaker 3]
And so when I was working with this landscape, we were talking they do they primarily do landscaping within urban environments.
00:29:32 [Speaker 3]
That's what they specialize in.
00:29:34 [Speaker 3]
So the idea of how Mhmm.
00:29:36 [Speaker 3]
And water and growth happen in conjunction with architecture, which is stable and solid.
00:29:43 [Speaker 3]
And so I started to find stable solid materials and push them against materials that were more fluid.
00:29:50 [Speaker 3]
So I'd work with pieces of wire, which were, well, in this case, relatively stable, but through pieces of glass, which that was curved.
00:29:58 [Speaker 3]
And so there there you get something fluid and something solid.
00:30:02 [Speaker 3]
And so that's that's where some of the studies started.
00:30:07 [Speaker 3]
As they developed, there were ways of making it feel as if it were the nature of water moving or the nature of wind pushing against things, things in the environment.
00:30:19 [Speaker 3]
And and so the again, trying to get the what is the essence of nature within a an architectural space as opposed to just pictures of trees, you know, next to buildings?
00:30:31 [Speaker 2]
Do you think that engages the the viewer more when they're able to kind of think through the shape and the formation with the the topic, I guess?
00:30:41 [Speaker 3]
Well, the client thought so.
00:30:44 [Speaker 3]
Well, yeah.
00:30:44 [Speaker 3]
Well, the one thing that that the client really liked about these, about the the final outcome, and and I hope the viewers and listeners will be able to find, you know, these images so they'll know what we're talking about, is that it started conversations.
00:31:01 [Speaker 3]
So they'd hand the business card, which has this strange abstraction.
00:31:04 [Speaker 3]
And instead of being a tree, which there's nothing to talk about there, it it is this abstraction, and it led to a conversation and, about the nature of architecture, the nature of landscape.
00:31:16 [Speaker 3]
And they really like that because it already puts the encounter with a potential at a different plane.
00:31:22 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:31:22 [Speaker 3]
Already a plane about almost theoretical level about what nature can do within a structured environment.
00:31:30 [Speaker 3]
And so they were already one step ahead of of selling their services, let's say.
00:31:36 [Speaker 3]
And so and that wasn't my intention at first.
00:31:39 [Speaker 3]
I was just trying to create this interest, but it had that surprising effect
00:31:45 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:31:46 [Speaker 3]
That and and so it does it it it made their viewers curious, but curious to ask a question.
00:31:54 [Speaker 3]
They weren't just scratching their head and saying, you know, what is this?
00:31:57 [Speaker 3]
This is stupid.
00:31:57 [Speaker 3]
But they it they'd had a certain integrity to it and intentionality that made them wanna know more.
00:32:05 [Speaker 3]
And I suppose that's always a goal.
00:32:08 [Speaker 3]
Maybe when you're making identity and you want it to represent a company or whatever it is, is is to get the person to wanna know more about the association with this abstract form and the service that they're gonna provide.
00:32:23 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:32:23 [Speaker 2]
Or curious.
00:32:24 [Speaker 2]
I feel like there is a line to draw where it's like you want them to be curious about what they're seeing, but not confused.
00:32:31 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:32:31 [Speaker 3]
Sure.
00:32:32 [Speaker 3]
Sure.
00:32:35 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:32:36 [Speaker 3]
Confusion is is a fail.
00:32:38 [Speaker 3]
Curious is a success.
00:32:43 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:32:45 [Speaker 2]
Kind of ending off.
00:32:46 [Speaker 2]
We have to kind of taper off, kind of asking, kind of more about photography.
00:32:56 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:32:57 [Speaker 2]
Because I think that was very interesting.
00:32:59 [Speaker 2]
You came into photography kind of later on in your career.
00:33:03 [Speaker 2]
Well, you used it earlier, but you went back to school for photography.
00:33:06 [Speaker 3]
That's right.
00:33:07 [Speaker 3]
Correct.
00:33:07 [Speaker 2]
So you mentioned, like I can't remember the exact words, so I should have written it down.
00:33:12 [Speaker 2]
But you kind of want to use the camera and, like, seeing how the camera wants to see the space.
00:33:19 [Speaker 3]
Yes.
00:33:20 [Speaker 2]
Oh, that was very interesting, as, like, an amateur photographer.
00:33:23 [Speaker 2]
I'm just kind of like, oh, I want I wanna shoot this, and I wanna shoot that.
00:33:26 [Speaker 2]
But how do you let the camera do that?
00:33:30 [Speaker 2]
You In a sense.
00:33:31 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:33:32 [Speaker 3]
You the camera you use as an investigative device and not a document not not a documenting device.
00:33:41 [Speaker 3]
Most people, particularly with the phone, use the camera to document something.
00:33:46 [Speaker 3]
This is my food.
00:33:47 [Speaker 3]
This is my pet.
00:33:48 [Speaker 3]
This is, you know, my vacation.
00:33:50 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:33:51 [Speaker 3]
And they be they stand for the thing that you're experiencing.
00:33:55 [Speaker 3]
And even the way that the phone is built, the the whole way that you where the shutter button is is meant to make things documentable easily.
00:34:03 [Speaker 3]
You hold it up in front of the object.
00:34:05 [Speaker 3]
I'm interested in the camera exploring an object and getting in and underneath.
00:34:10 [Speaker 3]
And, like, what would the if the camera could wander around this object or move within the space, what would it see?
00:34:18 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:34:18 [Speaker 3]
Not just I don't want it to be my eye.
00:34:21 [Speaker 3]
I don't want it to just imitate my way of seeing.
00:34:24 [Speaker 3]
I want to find what it with its shape or if it's the way that it gets held and moves face, what it's looking at.
00:34:31 [Speaker 3]
And I think that that's really that that it's a major shift in how we think of photography, particularly now.
00:34:41 [Speaker 3]
And it is a challenge with the phone.
00:34:43 [Speaker 3]
In fact, again, I'm working in this workshop where that is their goal is to take these objects, and most of them are using their phone because that's all they've got.
00:34:53 [Speaker 3]
But using it to investigate a material or an object and not just make a portrait of it.
00:35:00 [Speaker 3]
And I think that that is that is is a freedom.
00:35:04 [Speaker 3]
It also tends to abstract things much more because you're looking at it from a point of view that's unexpected.
00:35:10 [Speaker 3]
It's very much of a Bauhaus strategy.
00:35:12 [Speaker 3]
The new photography that they were calling was really about that, is putting the camera in conditions that we would never normally see things.
00:35:21 [Speaker 3]
In fact, early filmmaking was doing that as well, is putting the camera underneath the car and having the car speed.
00:35:29 [Speaker 3]
So you're seeing movement from, like, where the wheels which is not how we normally see the world.
00:35:35 [Speaker 3]
And it was this really excitement, and it it started to make everything curious again.
00:35:42 [Speaker 3]
And that's what I I I named the the lecture keeping curiosity alive.
00:35:46 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:35:46 [Speaker 3]
And that is a strategy to make even the most banal object something of curiosity.
00:35:52 [Speaker 3]
And what was really amazing in this workshop is after just, let's say, two and a half hours, the students were deeply involved in making the the dumbness of their objects into these curious magical things.
00:36:06 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:36:06 [Speaker 3]
And it's like, wow.
00:36:08 [Speaker 3]
What could be better than that?
00:36:10 [Speaker 2]
I liked the idea that, like, you're putting the camera in a space where a human cannot be.
00:36:15 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:36:15 [Speaker 2]
It's like Mhmm.
00:36:16 [Speaker 2]
What if you're really little and you can go into a vase?
00:36:18 [Speaker 3]
Which a camera is.
00:36:19 [Speaker 3]
Right?
00:36:20 [Speaker 3]
A camera is little, and it can go around.
00:36:22 [Speaker 3]
You can also move it over time, and it will see blurs of things.
00:36:27 [Speaker 3]
And and the assumption that, for example, things should be in sharp focus because the way I see them is in sharp focus.
00:36:34 [Speaker 3]
Well, the no one tells the camera to be in focus all the time or you have to be the correct aperture.
00:36:39 [Speaker 3]
A camera can make its aperture what it wants to.
00:36:42 [Speaker 3]
If it wants to blow out the scene or if it wants to soften the scene, you know, give it its own agency.
00:36:49 [Speaker 3]
I guess that's the the challenge, and not just make it conform to our vision.
00:36:57 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:36:57 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:36:57 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:36:58 [Speaker 2]
I I love that.
00:37:00 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:37:00 [Speaker 2]
I'd that's I probably have more questions I could think of, but I think we're about to hit a fifty minutes.
00:37:07 [Speaker 2]
But do you have any questions, comments, concerns, complaints?
00:37:11 [Speaker 2]
Always ask that.
00:37:12 [Speaker 3]
Oh, no.
00:37:13 [Speaker 3]
Oh, no.
00:37:15 [Speaker 3]
I'm I'm quite content.
00:37:16 [Speaker 1]
Well, I'm I'm happy
00:37:18 [Speaker 3]
with that.
00:37:18 [Speaker 3]
Well, that's good.
00:37:19 [Speaker 3]
That's good.
00:37:20 [Speaker 3]
No.
00:37:20 [Speaker 3]
I've I've I like what I do.
00:37:22 [Speaker 3]
I've I've I miss t I used to I've been teaching, you know, for thirty years.
00:37:26 [Speaker 3]
And so even just these workshops and the chance to meet with students, I always like that because I'm always curious about you know, I know where I came from and I know my background, but these new generations of students, where are they seeing design?
00:37:42 [Speaker 3]
What do they think of as significant design?
00:37:46 [Speaker 3]
All of these kinds of things are, they're very different than view.
00:37:50 [Speaker 3]
And it's very easy for me to be a curmudgeon and say, well, my point of view is better.
00:37:55 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:37:55 [Speaker 3]
But I'm really learning that, well, you were all raised within a digital world.
00:38:00 [Speaker 3]
Right?
00:38:00 [Speaker 3]
When but be as you were born, digital stuff existed.
00:38:03 [Speaker 3]
That isn't the same with me.
00:38:05 [Speaker 3]
And so your whole relationship to the world, to what it what makes you curious and what kinds of things you take for granted is different than mine.
00:38:14 [Speaker 3]
So having this chance to be here for a whole week and to meet students and faculty and really get that is is really valuable to me.
00:38:24 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:38:24 [Speaker 2]
Also, I I find teaching also very I teach little children.
00:38:29 [Speaker 3]
Oh, wow.
00:38:30 [Speaker 2]
Not college students.
00:38:31 [Speaker 2]
I teach little, what are their age groups?
00:38:35 [Speaker 2]
Four to six year olds?
00:38:35 [Speaker 2]
Well, they're just learning
00:38:36 [Speaker 3]
to see.
00:38:37 [Speaker 3]
They're
00:38:38 [Speaker 2]
And that has changed my practice incredibly because Oh, man.
00:38:41 [Speaker 2]
They they look at things completely new.
00:38:43 [Speaker 3]
Well, you know, I'll tell you one thing I've always been fascinated with and always so curious about is what does a baby see before any language to name the thing it's seeing?
00:38:56 [Speaker 3]
When it sees something yellow, it doesn't know the word yellow.
00:39:00 [Speaker 3]
So what what does it see?
00:39:02 [Speaker 3]
How does it make sense of a world when there's no language yet?
00:39:07 [Speaker 3]
And I always I would say, like, I wish that I could get my photography and my way of looking at the world all the way down to that point where there is no language yet.
00:39:18 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:39:19 [Speaker 3]
I don't know that I could ever do that because we're and I that's why it it was a time when language is a virus.
00:39:25 [Speaker 3]
In that, once you're infected with it Mhmm.
00:39:29 [Speaker 3]
You can never get rid of it, that you are now conditioned to always use language.
00:39:33 [Speaker 3]
And once you use language, you start you start creating categories of things.
00:39:38 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:39:38 [Speaker 3]
This is yellow that's not yellow.
00:39:40 [Speaker 3]
Instead of there being this constant range between yellow and brown and blue and purple, you start to define where yellow ends.
00:39:48 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:39:49 [Speaker 3]
And once you start doing that, you stop seeing it as this pure experience and more than just what you know as the word for it.
00:39:59 [Speaker 3]
Mhmm.
00:39:59 [Speaker 3]
And so I just wish that even for just an hour, to be able to get back to that point when I'm just completely wide eyed and have no names for the things I'm seeing.
00:40:13 [Speaker 2]
A lot of the the younger kids, they would do a thing where they would mix random paint colors together and come tell me they've invented a new color.
00:40:20 [Speaker 3]
Wow.
00:40:20 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:40:21 [Speaker 2]
And they they did because they didn't know that color existed, and now they do.
00:40:24 [Speaker 3]
Uh-huh.
00:40:25 [Speaker 3]
Well, that's the thing that you might have seen in my talk last night, the idea of trying to create these gradations between blue and brown.
00:40:32 [Speaker 3]
Like, where you know, in in in you get from blue to brown, what is that in the middle there, right, when it's not quite one or the other?
00:40:40 [Speaker 3]
That those in between moments, I find so exciting.
00:40:43 [Speaker 3]
Wow.
00:40:43 [Speaker 3]
That's that must be great, though, to be working with kids that young.
00:40:48 [Speaker 2]
I love it.
00:40:48 [Speaker 2]
It's great.
00:40:48 [Speaker 2]
I hope I can continue after I leave Auburn because it's an Auburn job.
00:40:52 [Speaker 2]
But
00:40:52 [Speaker 3]
Well Yeah.
00:40:54 [Speaker 3]
Just just continue.
00:40:57 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:40:58 [Speaker 2]
Thanks for listening
00:40:59 [Speaker 1]
to Good Times, Peaks.
00:41:00 [Speaker 1]
Hope you had
00:41:01 [Speaker 2]
a good time because I sure did.
00:41:03 [Speaker 1]
But, unfortunately, the episode is over.
00:41:05 [Speaker 1]
But don't worry, you can check us out in other places.
00:41:08 [Speaker 1]
Be sure to follow the show to listen to every new episode or listen back to some old ones.
00:41:12 [Speaker 1]
Check us out on Instagram at typespeakspod.
00:41:14 [Speaker 1]
And remember, always keep creating and always stay curious.
00:41:18 [Speaker 1]
I'll see you next time.
00:41:19 [Speaker 1]
I've been Ray.