The Bitcoin Conference Hard Fork - Ep 024

Dive into our recap of Bitcoin 2025 and the future of crypto culture. Our hosts explore the conference's shift towards corporatization, the essence of meet space, and what's next for Bitcoin. Plus, insights on possible community hard forks and Bitcoin as a societal force. #Bitcoin #CryptoCulture

 

Watch this episode on YouTube

 

Hosts:

JD - @CypherpunkCine on 𝕏
Bondor - @gildedpleb on 𝕏
Zach - @idiotfortruth on 𝕏

 

 

Sponsors:

Unknown Certainty - The Bitcoin Ad Company
IndeeHub - Reshape the Business of Storytelling - @indeehub on 𝕏

What is Better By Bitcoin?

Bitcoin makes everything better. Join the team and our guests as we unpack how, why, and where we go from here.

Hey friend, listen. I know the world is scary right now. Corruption, war, inflation, demographics,

degeneracy, disease, unrest, hatred and despair. We didn't come here to tell you how it is.

But that it's going to get way better.

We got a good thing coming. And it's all I need. Everything I wanted. Just wait and see.

Better. Bye Bitcoin.

Nice. I like that one.

So good.

Let's go.

So good.

It changed my, all my gamma settings are different now.

Ah.

That's fucking weird.

That's just because you're gay.

Fuck you StreamYard. Fuck you man. I lit this intentionally and now it's all fucked up.

Great way to start off Pride Month. So Bitcoin 2025 happened.

Oh God.

I take offense to that JD. I'm gay.

Oh man.

I'm so gay. You're so, you're so rude to me. You don't know how hard it is being gay.

Had the great pleasure of hanging out with Bondor and Zach over there in Vegas.

It was good. There was a lot of cool stuff that we got to see.

It was very privileged to find somebody willing to shill me a very inexpensive way to get into some different places and different parties and different rooms.

It was fun.

Yeah. I'm curious y'all's takes.

I think trying to get into kind of a recap of what we saw, what we wish we hadn't seen, what we wish we had seen more of.

I think maybe that's the goal of this chat today.

And I would also say probably the most, you know, interesting thing to start with would be, you know, bond.

You know, you guys were there.

Believe in the smallest amount of times.

Like, what did you see in the short amount of time you were there? Like, this was great. This was terrible.

I mean, really just walking into the conference floor.

I was like, this is an attack on Bitcoin.

This is straight up an attack on Bitcoin.

But, you know, I don't think that's what the conference was about, obviously.

Like, I think that all of the value and, J.D., you've beat this into my head.

I did not go to conferences forever.

I was like, no, conferences are stupid.

Like, let's centralize all the things about a decentralized system.

So, for me, going to the conference is like, it's all about you meet the people.

You, like, get FaceTime.

And that's it.

You don't even need to go.

You don't even need to attend the conference to do that.

Walking into the conference floor is like, this is just corporate takeover of Bitcoin.

We're like, I think, Zach, you said at one point, it was like, or I brought it up.

I was like, man, all the treasury company stuff and all the other stuff that's happening in Bitcoin is just like,

a little bit depressing.

And, Zach, you were like, yeah, if Bitcoin can't, you know, beat this, well, then what are we doing here?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, there's, yeah.

That's the, I think that's the cool thing about Bitcoin.

It's like, it really, it kind of ends up being whatever you want it to be, you know, like within the confines of, you know, maintaining credibility with the 21 million and decentralization.

But, you know, if it can't withstand Wall Street and it can't withstand the corporatization and it can't withstand, you know, the insane leverage that we're probably going to see blasted onto it here, then it was never, then it wasn't going to win anyway.

So, we have to go through this.

We have to allow it the opportunity to take these challenges on.

And if it fails, you know, we're fucked anyway.

So, I'm ready for Bitcoin to succeed here.

We're all going to be going to Vegas for different reasons next time.

I'll be moving to Vegas.

Yeah, I think the most interesting thing for me, though, is, you know, even in the middle of, you know, a conference that a lot of people would call Shitcoin 2025, and there was a lot of that.

There is still an opportunity to find some high signal just to kind of depending on who you're kind of around.

I think my stuff is going wild today.

I don't really know why, but what the conferences continue to remind me is meet space is really where real work gets done.

Yep. Period.

You know, as Twitter spaces is also great.

I actually think spaces is probably number two.

It's like meet space and then spaces.

And then right under spaces, I would probably put, you know, everything else, because there really is nothing that can be just shaking somebody's hand or having lunch, you know, breaking bread, sharing a drink or whatever, because you just don't lose nuance, right?

You know, if you're just sending somebody a text, you lose everything.

You lose all the nuance.

You lose tone.

You lose intonation.

And I think that was the big thing that was just like a constant reminder for me.

And this is there.

There is a lot of value in going to live events.

I'm not going to say this conference, but just like live events in general.

So I would highly recommend like meet, you know, meetups and things like that.

But it's.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Good, good.

Yeah, I was just going to say the last piece is, you know, the biggest thing that I'm getting served up right now is like AI stuff and like Mirage.

I literally just saw this before I jumped on here, this Mirage thing.

I don't even know anything about it, but it's wild.

We're getting to this point, which is what we talked about last week, where the Internet is going to become the dead Internet.

And AI is going to be the mass, you know, the majority of all the traffic online.

But what Bitcoin does in that context is it makes it really, really ineffective, inefficient and expensive to lie.

And so we're going to get to a place where, you know, it's going to come back around.

But the pendulum's got to swing all the way to the this is terrible before we can swing back to like, OK, you know, some form of sanity again.

Yeah. And then, you know, just the meat space stuff is meat space stuff is really what it's all about.

We've basically been on this whatever 30 year more, more, more, more Internet, more computer time, more screen time, like more, more, more.

And now it's just going to be AI is just going to gut all that.

It's going to be all about the meat space and human interaction.

Yep. I couldn't agree more.

Like proof of work. You know, you've got you've got you've got two domains that we all kind of occupy and that Bitcoin occupies.

You've got you've got the Akashic realm, the informational realm, and you've got the physical realm.

And, you know, they both need each other. They're both important.

But the value is always in the physical realm. That's the proof of work implementation.

You know, talk is cheap, right? This is why talk is cheap, because doing shit is harder than saying shit.

And, you know, look, I honestly like I think anybody who's sitting on the sidelines talking shit about the convention, like just sell your Bitcoin.

Honestly, like give me a fucking break, dude.

Yeah. Do something. Do something.

Yeah. You know, like you have no you know, look, of course, this is how the world works, right?

People go sell their shit at a giant market where everybody's interested in what's going on.

Like that's not this isn't shit coining. This isn't like mine.

And honestly, like I don't even see a bunch of shit coining on the conference floor.

There is that was one thing that actually I did notice is I was like, whoa, this is I was expecting like booth after booth after booth of like, hey, and join our new token.

We got a presale, blah, blah, blah. And like, just like I didn't go to Miami.

But as I understand, Miami was three years ago. Yes.

Yeah. It's literally it's almost entirely dominated by Bitcoin, Bitcoin related companies, Bitcoin related mining, like just all sorts of stuff.

Like, honestly, OK, I mean, there's a whole bunch of speakers.

Right. Yeah. There's a whole bunch of speakers who are all total shit coiners and they're peddling their stuff.

But like there was no people who were like, oh, we're here to sell tokens, or at least I didn't see it.

I mean, I was there for two hours, but yeah, no, it was pretty tight.

The biggest shit coiner there was steak and shake, steak and shake really need to be pushed out of the Bitcoin ecosystem.

They sell garbage product that the CEO might be orange pilled.

If you're watching this, like get your get your shit together, bro, your fries.

What? Like, bro, this I would rather order McDonald's is the most fiat fucking shit I've ever eaten.

It was terrible. Other than that, honestly, pretty high signal.

The steak and shake fries were by far the shit coiniest thing.

But they do. They don't do telephone. They they fry it in tallow.

But it's like already pre fried in a bunch of communism. So great.

It's basically useless.

I was wondering where the color came from. It's just the lack of color, the like off white.

I died seven years ago and somebody filled me with the fucking embalming liquid like that's what we're like.

God, it's funny that. But seriously, like the conference is fantastic.

Bitcoin is fantastic. I absolutely fucking love roaming around, running into people that I know and love and respect.

Like J.D. was saying, you can't you can't you can't recreate that tempo.

You can't recreate the speed of ideation.

You can't recreate the energy of a bunch of people there for the same thing that they're all excited about.

It's it's great. Like, it's great. It should happen.

There's just an insane amount of stuff happening that's not on the conference floor.

That's in all of the little meetings that people are having.

They're talking with one another. Yeah. Building their ideating.

They're coming up with products. They're coming up with solutions that you probably won't even see for another two or three or four years.

We are so fucking early in this. Bitcoin is the most interesting thing happening on the planet.

And if you don't think that you're wrong, you're flat out fucking uninformed about everything.

It's true. I'm sorry. Like you need to get your shit together and you need to figure it out.

Now, that being said, I do have somewhat of a hot take.

I think that the Bitcoin community, as it pertains to the Bitcoin conference, is going to experience a hard fork sometime in the next five years.

I do think that there will be a group of people who spin off a Bitcoin conference.

The they will get sick of the corporatization. They will get sick of Vegas.

Like Vegas is cool, like the first time, maybe next year it will be kind of cool.

But like at a certain point, Vegas really isn't the venue for this.

Vegas is like – It's way too fiat.

Yeah. Vegas is the shit coin of – it's the mother asshole from which all shit coins come from, to quote our dear friend Safe.

Don't know him. Not my dear friend.

But I do think there's going to be a hard fork, and I do think that the corporatization and popularity will – like anything, right?

Like Reddit used to be awesome back in the day, and then it was overrun by either bots or just absolute fucking morons.

So the cool people bail. They want to go find another spot to hang out with each other.

And Bitcoin culture will probably go somewhat underground in a social hard fork before 2030, I would say for sure.

Yeah.

Go ahead, G.

I just say – I think that's a number.

I think the number is 250 also, because I think once Bitcoin crosses a quarter million bucks, there is a psychological change and shift that's going to happen to normies.

That is going to be pretty catastrophic in my mind.

I think that that is a really simple – I was listening to Bitcoin Today this morning, and Gary Cardone and a couple other people were talking.

But they were talking about a marketplace for bonds and bonds being a quarter – or what is it? Half a quadrillion.

So it's like they're not saying 500 trillion.

They're saying half a quadrillion is what they're saying.

And what was interesting about that is it's the way we psychologically parse things.

Because if you say half a quadrillion, you think quadrillion.

It's all marketing, right?

I used to work in retail, and the reason something is $7.99 is because it makes you think $8.

So it makes you feel like you're getting a value, even though you're saving a penny.

It's like I'm getting $8 of value for something I'm only spending $7.99 for.

It's literally a psychological thing that they do.

But the ramifications of that are huge.

And so once Bitcoin crosses the quarter-million-dollar mark – because that's what it will be referred to as, a quarter-million-dollar – versus $250,000, it's going to start being seen as a million-dollar asset.

And that is when I think things get really interesting really fast.

Because I do think the wick up that Dr. Jeff and all these people are talking about – Dr. Jeff is saying by the end of the year – or rather something I saw earlier – by the end of the year, he still thinks $450,000 is in play.

And I totally agree with that.

I think if we cross the quarter-million-dollar mark at some point in time, we see the spike up to $450,000 very fast.

And at that point in time, that's when it doesn't matter if you have 0.1 of a Bitcoin or more than that.

You need to start looking over your shoulder.

Because there's going to be people who – and it's like, you know, we're in a podcast.

Put our faces out there.

We're retards.

Retards.

Retards.

But it's about what you were just saying – and this goes back to the beginning of this – is, you know, the meat space is where work can get done.

And starting these relationships now, if you really want to be in the Bitcoin ecosystem, is that important.

So it is that important to get out there and, you know, be rubbing shoulders with people.

So then that way when Bitcoin is a reserve asset for the entire world and you want to have a hand in trying to make it last for generations, you can do that.

Because you know the people to call or it's like, hey, how can I pitch in?

And people know how to call you.

I think, Zach, you had an interesting hot take of it's going to split.

I think there's something to that because it was, what, 35,000 people at the conference?

And with 35,000 people at the conference and these huge megabillion – not megabillions – like multiple billions of dollars of capital like on the floor of the conference like going through and, hey, we're going to sell you.

We got all these lending platforms now.

We got all these like Bitcoin treasury companies, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

All this stuff going on and you're like, it feels like Wall Street's in now.

I mean, that should be pretty obvious, right?

But then it's all – the only thing that matters to Wall Street is like the things that only matter to Wall Street, right, which is just make as much money as possible.

It doesn't matter who you destroy in the process, right?

It's just Wall Street all over again.

And it's like, okay.

I mean maybe that's what Dave Bailey and co. wants for Bitcoin.

They clearly want the politics, right?

They invite and have political speakers that are literally actual politicians like the vice president and the president coming to these conferences.

They're also actually Wall Street now, right?

They're major players in publicly traded companies.

So they are Wall Street.

Yeah.

And so there is this – it's like, oh, yeah, cool.

We got the money narrative nailed.

We can make all the money.

Oh, you can do all the money, all the money.

And it's like, well, as you guys are well aware, Bitcoin is like so much bigger than that.

It's the problems we can solve about reality.

And it really feels like, okay, cool.

All these people who came to Bitcoin to – I don't know.

I'm not saying like Bailey and co. have done all this or that this is them.

But it feels like there's a certain level of I came to Bitcoin.

I was an outcast and like I'm not the outcast anymore.

Now I'm the insider.

We have conquered.

We did it, right?

We're the insiders.

We're the ones.

And so when you look at that narrative and you're like, yeah, but that's just all – it's all still fiat.

Like we're all still operating like total fiat mindset of like great.

They weren't like – all the quintillionaires like, oh, I want to be the quintillionaire.

No, I'm the quintillionaire.

I'm the insider.

Cool.

Yeah, we did it.

But it's like, no, no, no.

You haven't actually broken anything.

You just replaced the old system.

And so one of the thoughts I have coming out of the conference is we've been in phase one.

I think phase one is kind of like played out, right?

It's not going to – like what else are we going to do, take over Wall Street again?

Like, well, no.

Yeah, I think Vegas 2025 is the end of book one.

I agree with that.

Three or four part trilogy.

Yeah.

I think also next year they're kind of signaling that, right?

The tickets changed from like an industry pass, which is now called a pro pass, but went from $1,500 to $600.

And like the normal ticket went from I think it was like $150 to $200.

It's like they've done a price disparity, but now the whale tickets are $7,777.

Why I think that's –

The normie tickets are free for the first couple of days if you're able to get that.

They were, yeah.

So what that signals to me is this is a numbers game.

Like Bailey & Co. need this to be 80,000 to 100,000 people.

Like that's their goal is literally just to flood the zone, to make it unignorable.

And so I understand why they raised the price of the whale ticket,

but I think it's going to be an interesting fork to use that term

because I think it's going to actually change things.

It's going to mean that the people that are in that whale room are not going to be plebs anymore.

You're not going to have – unless they're speaking and unless they're kind of being given a ticket

because I know a lot of people who are OG plebs who will walk around the floor

with just festival passes that they were given because they refused to pay for tickets.

But it's going to basically be like who's going to be in that room next year?

Like Jamie Dimon.

Who's going to be in that room next year?

JD Vance.

It's just going to be kind of like a party for the social elite and the political elite

that happened to be at the Bitcoin conference.

So it's going to be a completely different vibe I think next year than it was this year.

That's a little unfortunate because I do think with Pacific Bitcoin kind of being on hiatus,

slash canceled, that in my opinion was one of the highest signal.

Again, I'm still new here.

But one of the highest signal to noise ratio conferences I ever attended.

And so these smaller conferences in my opinion like ePunks at the Denver Space

and a lot of the things happening at like Bitcoin Park or Bitcoin Commons

are going to be a lot more important and valuable.

But it's going to make it more expensive and challenging logistically if you live overseas or whatever.

It's like you're not going to be able to get to –

I mean ultimately everybody everywhere should be starting a meetup in their own physical meet space.

It doesn't even matter if you live in a town of 100 people.

Like you should just be doing that, right?

Like everywhere because that it's all –

like until you do that, until you bring the education to the random people,

like everyone's just going to be suffering from inflation.

All your friends are going to lose their jobs.

Like it's just going to go on and on and on until you start jumping in on Bitcoin

and bringing Bitcoin to wherever you are on earth, right?

And then that scales.

Cool.

Like the guys at Bitcoin Magazine, they figured that out super early.

Maybe they just took a risk and did it.

And we're just going to do a conference and snowballs into what it is now.

And that's kind of playing out.

It's like cool.

But everybody basically needs to do that and join in the meet space.

Hey, if you can do a Pacific Bitcoin where your connections

and your particular knowledge set allows you to get high signal people for your conference,

well, do it, right?

Yeah.

I just – I definitely think that we're going to see a hard fork socially.

A bunch of the plebs are going to get sick of the corporate bullshit

because it's going to ruin it.

Like this year was fun.

I had a great time.

Totally worth it.

Not knocking the conference.

But this is how everything goes.

This is how it always goes with something that is cool and revolutionary and new.

You usually start off with a couple of absolutely – just a small group of visionaries,

of people who are like-minded, who have a positive, constructive view of the world

and the future as far as humanity is concerned.

It gets really, really fucking cool.

It becomes the cool thing to do.

And then it gets taken over by people who think that what they're doing looks cool

rather than actually being cool.

And then the people who made it cool in the first place bail.

But the cool thing is that you can't actually take Bitcoin over.

Like they took Reddit over.

Like Reddit is a cesspool.

It used to be fantastic.

The cool thing about Bitcoin is it is open source.

You can build anything you want on it.

Nobody can tell you you can or you can't.

And that culture can just go hide and rebuild itself and continue to build dope shit on it

regardless of what the lame stream is up to.

We already see that.

Yeah.

Like I was concerned that that would be it.

I was going back home and I was like, man, that might have been the last –

that might have been the last like really cool, fun Bitcoin conference

before it totally gets taken over.

And I was like, no, it's just going to hard fork.

It's going to be a new – it's just going to be a new group and a new place.

So I'm optimistic for that.

I think the fork is going to be actually really positive

because I think the fork is actually going to move into different lanes.

That's what I mean by that.

It's like Scott who does BidX has been posting a lot recently about like the heat reclamation,

like heatpunks type stuff.

And I think that's actually what's going to become more prevalent

is people are going to find something that actually is worth their time to focus and dive in on.

And so you're actually going to get a lot more innovation,

a lot more rubbing shoulders with people that make sense.

It's like a conference with 50,000 people.

You're going to run into people that doesn't really matter whether or not you know them.

But then like two and three layers removed,

the relationships that those people have been building over the years

and you start doing a heatpunks thing, you start making a BidX.

I can actually like heat people's homes in Finland or something like that

and actually is really, really net positive for Scandinavia

or net positive for like South Africa or whatever it is.

What's going to be cool is the relationships that were forged now

are going to actually have like a long tail of value to the entire Bitcoin community.

But people are going to spend less of their time trying to worry about chasing a $7,000 ticket

to a conference in Vegas and more of the time like,

okay, hang on, $7,000 is essentially seven conferences, right?

Because these conferences are probably like $250 to go to

and then a round-trip ticket plus hotel plus food is going to run me like $750.

So it's like, cool.

So now I can go to seven conferences in seven different places

versus spending all my time in one specific place,

especially if you're trying to huddle in stacks at.

So it's going to be interesting.

I think this move by Bailey & Co. is strategic on their part,

but I actually think it's going to have – and maybe this is their goal,

but I actually think it's going to have really interesting ramifications for like Bitcoin at large.

And I do think it's actually going to probably hurt census next year

because even with free tickets, like I don't know how many people are going to be like,

do I really want to try to go here for whatever?

Because I don't know. I don't know what it's going to do.

At some point the Bitcoin conference, at some point those high-end tickets –

I don't know if this is two years or five years or ten years,

but at some point the whale pass just becomes super boring and incestuous

and all the rich people are like, I already have your number.

Why the fuck did we pay $10,000 to come out here? Let's all just hang out.

That might take a little while, but the people in those rooms all know each other

and they've known each other for a long time,

and they run into each other at all the conferences every fucking time.

And so at some point, I don't know, the value prop gets weird.

Like I say, things are going to hard fork, and I think it's good.

I think that it's cool that they can hard fork. It's not – it's fucking Bitcoin.

You know what I mean?

And I think we already see that.

And I think Jesse, when the Amboss guys mentioned this, he's like –

just in a tweet, he's like, oh, yeah, you've seen all these treasury companies.

Like, oh, we're going to promise all this yield and yield and yield.

Oh, yeah, we can do all this financial engineering, et cetera.

And it's like, bro, we already know Bitcoin has its own native yield,

and that's through lightning payments and routing,

being a routing node that gets paid to route payments.

And they're like – I think – I don't know if it was Jesse or somebody else,

but they're like saying like they made more money in the last week

than like the cost of the conference, right?

Like it's just a crazy amount of lightning node like liquidity that they're making as a yield.

It's like Bitcoin native yield.

And then you also see the finance guys like Bhatia, Nick Bhatia.

Like he got on the scene.

He became famous because he was like, oh, this is the native Bitcoin yield.

Like it's the payments you get for routing on Bitcoin, lightning network.

And now you see all the finance, the deep finance bros.

I mean, he's like himself included would be part of that group.

But he's like, no, that's not it.

And he came to that conclusion years ago, right?

And here we are with Wall Street guys.

This is it.

Like, no, it's not.

And then if you go down the lightning yield route and you start building on the systems,

well, bro, that's just going to suck all of the value out of Wall Street and their systems,

which are all legacy garbage anyway.

So great.

Fork to that direction.

Awesome.

Let's do it.

One of the things, you know, coming up on the half, but before,

like what are the big things that you kind of saw at the conference?

And I didn't see any of the speakers outside of I watched Jack Mahler's, which, you know,

I always love watching Jack.

He's just such a dynamic presenter.

I thought it was interesting.

The strike kind of like lending thing.

I'm always leery of things, not necessarily that I'm leery of Jack, but it's just like, you know,

people getting out over their skis.

I saw Sailor and then I did watch Ross Obert.

And I think from a programming perspective, you know, Ross, granted,

he's been in prison for 10 years, not surely.

He's been standing in front of a mirror for 10 years, you know, practicing, presenting.

But I would say like the headliner, those are probably backwards in terms of like presentation ability.

But I do think, you know, Jack and I heard Lynn was really great.

I didn't watch Lynn, but I heard Lynn's actually had a really good talk.

So I guess where I'm going with this.

I have some thoughts on Lynn's talk too, but go on.

Yeah, but that's, I guess the question is like,

were there any talks or things that you think people should watch?

Like I really would recommend people watch Jack and really watch Sailor.

Jack is good because he gives you like a lot of really good history in an interesting way.

And then he kind of goes into their pitch.

But Sailor was also good to kind of like tee up kind of like why you should hodl.

I do think hodling breaks down when we become medium of exchange.

But that's neither here nor there.

That's a larger conversation.

But, you know, is there any talks you guys heard main stage or otherwise?

You're like, oh, people could find it.

Go watch this.

First of all, Nat, if you're watching the talks while you're at the conference, you're doing it wrong.

They literally post them all on the Internet afterwards.

What the fuck?

Don't watch talks.

Go mingle with people.

Introduce yourself to people.

Hang out in the hallways.

Do the little breakout rooms on the side where shit isn't being recorded.

Those are cool as hell.

That being said, it was Sailor's 21 rules.

What was it, 21 rules for prosperity or building wealth or something?

Did you watch that one after the fact?

Yeah.

I watched it during the fact, yeah.

Yeah.

Phenomenal.

I mean, seriously phenomenal.

If you are trying to learn how to understand how to think in terms of finance or wealth, honestly, Sailor is on point basically 99% of the time.

It's phenomenal.

I thought Linz was less informative than usual.

But then again, I watch this stuff all day, so it's kind of like we've been saying this shit now for fucking how long?

Yeah.

That's kind of my thought on Linz as well.

It was just like, okay, there's some interesting points in here and all this other stuff.

But then I'm like, yeah, but none of this matters because if you're not on a Bitcoin standard, you personally, then you're just going to get wrecked.

And you could spend your entire life trying to just keep up with whatever the Fed's going to do next and the macro and how China…

All of your time doing that, or you just say, F it.

I'm just going to denominate my entire life in Bitcoin and not worry about this anymore because I just want to spend my time with my kids.

I don't care about this stupid fucking Fed and what they're doing.

I just don't care.

And the only way to protect yourself, the only way to be able to do that, to enter that world is just entirely denominating yourself with Bitcoin.

You need to get paid a flat rate in Bitcoin, and then you're good.

Then it's just whatever.

It doesn't matter.

But until you do that, it's like all this stuff matters.

It's just bonkers.

Yeah.

I mean, her point is well taken.

It's like, look, they can't not print.

This is literally a Ponzi scheme, which I thought was interesting for her to say.

She's usually pretty measured.

But to just like outright call it a Ponzi, I was like, cool.

Yeah, totally agree.

It literally is.

This is nonsense.

Like if the music stops and you don't have a chair, you're totally fucked.

That's a Ponzi scheme.

You guys have seen all the stuff about housing, right?

Right now?

I've seen a couple of bits about how it's super hot, way higher than it was in 2008, which I don't think was accurate.

The bigger one is Redfin came out today, and I had a couple of friends talk about this over the weekend.

There's like 34% more sellers than buyers.

Nice.

I think, and I'll let you finish with these, but like the music is stopping.

We're seeing it in real time.

People just don't realize like music is stopping and it's stopping real fast because that's just residential.

It's not even talking about commercial.

I think real estate at best, at absolute best, does a 0% return for the next maybe the rest of our lifetimes.

At best.

In real terms, 0%.

That's if they're printing an insane amount of money and propping this whole thing up.

I totally agree with that.

It might go up nominally.

What's not going to go up nominally against the dollar?

Basically, everything's going up nominally, but I think in real terms, we're looking at the party's kind of over.

I grew up, the era I grew up in was like real estate meant wealth.

That's how you built wealth.

It took me a long time to realize that that was actually just a leverage game.

I didn't understand that when I was young.

I totally think that that is just, I just think it's over.

Assuming they don't continue to flood the country with illegal immigrants.

If they do that, I don't know.

All bets are off for the United States specifically, but yeah, I think real estate is totally wrecked.

That's just a demographics issue.

I think the demographics are popping the Ponzi bubble.

I think Lyn had a chart on there that nailed it perfectly.

I've said a bunch of times with you guys, the average boomer turned 65 in 2019.

If you look at Lyn's chart, and I looked right at it, literally 2019 is when it starts to go down.

Social Security, they're going to have to print it, literally Ponzi.

Demand for housing, down at least at these prices.

But even if it's not at these prices, the generation behind the millennials, the only saving grace,

the only reason I think that it could go zero for the next 15 or 20 years in real terms

is because millennials are a larger cohort than boomers, and we have entered our prime earning and spending years.

The oldest millennial is now 43, 44.

The youngest one being whatever, 20 years behind that.

I think millennials might sort of keep it going, but yeah, I think real estate is in a rough spot.

Yeah, millennials are also the – they're going to be the most politically active going forward, which means all politicians.

It's going to go all boomer politicians and all octogenarian politicians.

It's going to be replaced by all millennials until the millennials basically are in their whatever, 70s and 80s, right?

So it's just millennials are going to control America for the foreseeable future.

And that's what a lot of the dissonances that we're feeling is really just two generations transferring power.

You've got just a completely different world from a technological perspective, but it's from a mental perspective.

Millennial brains are completely different than boomer brains.

They're just fucking different, wired differently based on environment and circumstances.

The digital native, right?

I think there's going to be – as soon as the generation below us, our kids are there, the digital natives, right?

They are going to have zero qualms adopting a digital currency like Bitcoin as the world reserve currency, period, full stop.

And I think that's probably one of the reasons that we have such a challenge with Bitcoin adoption at the institutional level.

Why it's been taking so long is because we have all these boomers who understand gold and it's like, oh, I can touch it and I can bite it and I can do all this other stuff.

I can throw it. I can put it on a boat and ship it across the water.

You have to mine it.

They kind of understand all of the physical aspects and attributes of gold, but they don't understand that Bitcoin has all of those except for the physical.

And so I think that's what's going to be the most unique in terms of kind of the Bitcoin adoption curve, but then also the changing tides of the world.

Because as soon as our kids are the makers of policy, Bitcoin is literally just going to go, yeah, why not?

It's like I already used Venmo.

And so in their mind, it's the same thing anyways.

Like, agreed.

I don't think our kids are going to have to concern themselves with it.

I think it'll be done by the time we leave power.

We'll have done it.

Millennials will have done it.

I also don't think that Bitcoin could possibly be adopted or possibly go any faster than it's going.

It's only been 16 fucking years.

Like, that is nothing, absolutely nothing in the span of human existence and certainly nothing with regards to something that has garnered this much power and this much influence over such a short period of time.

Like, this train is going full speed.

If it was going any faster, it would collapse on itself and it would be destroyed.

Like, it's going crazy fast.

So, agreed, JD.

I don't think that our kids are – I don't think they're going to have to do much of anything.

I think that this fight will be done by the time we leave power.

And, you know, good luck to them.

Have fun.

Don't fuck it up, I guess.

I mean, there's going to be something interesting that happens with regards to, like, how each generation responds to the previous generation and what they thought was important or what they thought was important.

It's like millennials got to see what life was like pre-internet and then post-internet.

Zoomers basically get to see only internet.

And then Gen A is going to be like, they're going to be exposed to AI-dominated internet.

And they're going to be like, this is all just AI slop.

I'm super not into this.

Like, right?

Consequently, like, all Gen A is going to be – or, yeah, alpha.

They're going to just be like, internet's – that's what the boomers do.

That's what the millennials do, not the boomers.

It's just going to be –

I hope Gen A is just a bunch of outdoorsmen.

They just get into camping.

They just, like, abandon Bitcoin entirely and go back to the woods.

Yeah, literally they're going to be annoyed about Starlink because they're just like, all those damn Starlink satellites that are clouding up the sky.

I'd like to see actual stars, please.

Yeah, they'll just black hole a bunch of Bitcoin and absolutely destroy the network.

Like, totally gone.

Oh, man.

So how does this get better?

We're at that turning point, but I guess – and we haven't really recapped Vegas too much.

Like, I'll start and kind of go into this.

But I do think as we get on a Bitcoin standard, and I think some of the issues people have at the conference, as we get on a Bitcoin standard, it's going to become a lot more expensive and a lot more valuable to have floor space at something like this.

And it'll just cause two things to happen.

One, because it's more expensive and, you know, you legitimately are like, okay, like, making correct calls of what you should be doing because everything is more expensive.

I think we're going to see a lot less of the fiat, like, land grabs of people.

Like, I'll spend a bunch of money and try to, you know, scam some people or do whatever.

So it's going to be, you know, more binary in that regard.

But I think the other thing is the conference will actually get smaller and then ultimately just kind of peter out because that's what's going to happen is it's like people aren't going to care anymore about Bitcoin.

At a million dollars, the conference for sure is done.

It's over.

Yeah, I totally agree with that.

As we experience it now.

Like, hard fork.

I hope by the time we're 70 or 80, we're just having our own reunions.

Like, we're back in the conference days and fun.

Like, no one else gives a fuck about Bitcoin.

But then it's going to be smaller and stuff like that.

And that's what I'm excited about.

Dude, Zach, that is so true.

I don't know if you guys experienced any of this, but my grandfather fought in World War II.

And every year, every five years, something like that, everybody in his, like, platoon or battalion or however they organize, it's like 500 people or something like that.

Right.

However, whatever size of the military that is, they would get together every year and throw a, like, reunion party for everybody.

And, like, I remember going to one of these when I was had to been, like, six, seven, something like that.

And my grandpa was, like, telling me, he's like, yeah, every year we do this every year.

Every year there's, like, way less people because they all died.

It's like, that's going to be us.

It's going to be us.

Like, oh, what?

Yeah.

What class are you?

2000, whatever, 20, 2024.

Like, oh, yeah, that's this reunion.

And you want to be with those guys.

This reunion ain't for you, right?

Yeah, yeah.

You never went to Miami?

Fuck out of here, man.

You don't know shit about fuck.

Yeah, exactly.

I don't know.

Yeah, go ahead.

In terms of how it gets better, I think one of the things that forks is, like, well, do we really have any, like, Bitcoin related?

I mean, one of the reasons we started this podcast, better by Bitcoin.

It's like, well, Bitcoin makes things better.

One of the things that makes it better is, like, how humans organize all of civilization, right?

Like, all these really cool things, like art and design and urban planning.

It, like, makes all these things way better.

Now, how many conferences are kind of targeting those things?

There's, like, a few conferences that are like, we want to target Bitcoin and economics.

And so they'll have talks about the economics or whatever.

But, like, there isn't much, like, Bitcoin and art.

We saw it on the floor at the conference, right?

There's an entire section just devoted to Bitcoin art, which is interesting.

I think you just have, at some point, they should just have their own conference, right?

Here's the Bitcoin art conference, right?

And then you can kind of just go down those roads.

It's like, OK, well, this conference is going to be about design.

This conference is going to be about how Bitcoin affects architecture.

Like, that gets really interesting because then you get the actual specificity because money touches everything.

You finally get the specificity of how it touches this particular thing.

And that's going to be awesome because then you'll be able to see how it affects that particular thing that you actually care about,

as opposed to Saylor and his whatever yield curve fiascos.

Yeah, I think we could rename this episode to Vegas, to the Bitcoin conference hard fork.

You know, net positive, great show, great conference, great people.

I love it.

No regrets. Hanging out with Bitcoiners is the best.

But I do think that Bitcoin 2025 is marking the end of the beginning for Bitcoin.

And we're going into an entirely new chapter.

And I think that the ethos of Bitcoin is going to have to go through a periodic renewal.

You know, I try to think in generations.

It kind of makes sense.

So maybe every maybe every 10 years or so, you go through like a cultural renewal and revolution.

There's always going to have to be people in the Bitcoin space who are fighting the people who have the power,

who are trying to manipulate it and change it to their will.

I see that fight continuing into the future.

This is all very exciting, but there's going to be there's going to be more civil wars in the Bitcoin space.

And it's going to be, you know, as it has always been, it's going to be the plebs.

It's going to be the rebels versus the the empire.

You know, and we let the empire in the door and we're all celebrating and they have a lot of money and they throw great parties.

But at some point we're going to be fighting each other again.

There's no question about that.

So, you know, but such is progress, right?

You just kind of circularly hopefully go up and progress.

And this is just kind of the way it is and the way it always has been.

So celebrate the fact that you get to be a part of it, or at least that this is the way that that energy manifests itself into our timeline, our lives.

And, you know, I don't know.

It's interesting. Just enjoy it. It's fun.

Enjoy it until until the crash happens.

And we already know what the cycle is already about, right?

It's about Bitcoin treasury companies.

It's about like lending your Bitcoin out and getting a like getting a fiat loan without having to pay taxes or any like like every other booth on the floors like this is what this is what this is all about.

Oh, we're the Bitcoin tax company.

Like we're like, bro, we know like and then the Treasury company things as well.

It's like we know that what's going to happen is that all these companies are going to get super over levered.

At some point, there's not going to be another buyer.

Everyone's going to have the exposure that they want.

And the market's going to crash.

And a bunch of people are going to get caught naked.

And a lot of people are going to be mad.

A lot of people are going to lose money.

And then it's going to be like, I don't get flushed out.

We'll go into the next cycle. Right.

So and a lot of jobs will scoop up a lot of cheap corn when the fucking idiots leverage do the same shit.

The idiots with leverage always do.

Yes. Yep.

I got a prediction.

I'll just say like full blown prediction here.

Price per not maybe not price prediction, but behavioral prediction.

So the question is always like, where's the leverage coming from?

OK, that answer that answer is here.

We know what that is. The question is, what pops it?

I think that I think that through Trump's administration, we're going to continue to see companies borrow money and lever up.

You know, people talking about the MNAV for these publicly traded companies is going to be the thing.

Either you're over one or you're below one.

Are you going to sell if you're below one and buy back shares or are you not?

I think that's going to continue to be the story for at least another couple of years.

And I think that just for a fun prediction, I think the thing that pops the bubble is that the United States Senate, U.S.

Congress cannot get their shit together with regards to an SBR.

The bill does not pass.

We're looking to a different administration, possibly a Democratic one, because for your cycles, why not?

And everybody starts to lose their shit.

And that starts to unwind the leverage that the U.S.

government is maybe not behind it or maybe not behind it for at least another four to eight years.

So I think we see lever, lever, lever, lever, lever.

I don't think the U.S. passes this SBR.

I think that pops the bubble.

We see a massive unwind.

I think that that could see this cycle.

And I don't think I don't think by December we're going to see 450.

But let's say sometime in the next 12 months, I think cycle start to get extended in time frame.

And maybe in the next 12 months we see 450, something like that, whatever.

And Congress can't get their shit together.

Bubble pops.

Bunch of people unwind.

And now it's got a point five point three total disaster.

And we're back at eighty five.

Eighty four.

Shout out to Josh Mann before we ramp up to over 500 K.

And I don't think the normies, the norm.

Here's a problem with the normies.

The reason they're called normies is because it doesn't matter what the price is.

They still don't care.

They'll never care because they don't understand it.

And that's fine.

Apparently they're not meant to.

If they're if you're meant to, you're already in it or, you know, you'll find yourself in it shortly.

So I think that I think this is it.

Like we're on the boat.

This is the boat.

It's a corporate story at this point until the leverage bubble pops.

And it's definitely a corporate story this time around.

And then the next time around will be like I love.

I think that's a it's a sound insight.

This is the corporate story.

But politically, corporate is basically just associated with one party, like politically, right?

Oh, we don't have the insiders with our party.

I mean, both parties are totally chock full of insiders and whatever.

But the imaging on one of the parties is like in bed with Wall Street.

The imaging on the other parties is like, no, we care about the working man.

Obviously, they don't.

But.

Yeah, politically, it's like this is.

Yeah.

Bitcoin has infiltrated the Wall Street corporate sector.

It has not infiltrated the political sector.

It's it's knocking on the door of the political sector, but it's not in the room yet.

Right.

Like state level bills are failing because everyone's like, why?

Why would we do that?

Like, it's just it's bonkers.

The world is still run by boomers and they're still the ones who are signing these bills.

And that's going to be true for the next 10 to 15 years.

And for the record, I don't think that I don't think that it's you know, I don't think that we should be cheering on sovereigns buying Bitcoin at all.

I don't I don't see the point in it.

I don't see the benefit to it.

I think that we should be cheering on corporate adoption, like significantly more than sovereign adoption, ignoring price.

Do you guys think a political adversary like China or Russia are going to be the ones to to start the unraveling?

Already doing it.

Did you see the bit bond deal with Russia this morning?

Mm hmm.

So there you go.

Right.

Like Russia has every you know, it's to their advantage to shake the U.S. system.

The U.S. dollar system already kicked Russia out of it, which was the beginning of the end to a dollar.

That was it.

Like when when we kicked Russia out, we froze their treasuries.

We booted them off a swift like that was it.

That was it.

That was the beginning of the end for the for treasuries as the global reserve asset.

The dollar will be a currency for quite a while longer, but treasuries is the global reserve asset.

That's that's it's done.

It's over.

So I don't know.

I think they do, J.D.

Like I think other countries have every reason to attack in this way.

And, you know, like if shit goes, no bid, you know, all these treasury companies, you know, MetaPlanet and Herb Durbin, blah, blah, blah.

Like the publicly traded companies, I think they're just massive attack vectors.

I just think they're they're honeypots for governments.

They're honeypots for sovereigns.

I think that private corporate adoption is like.

Should be the top of the pyramid as far as what bitcoiners are looking for.

I don't think it should go higher than that.

Publicly traded companies.

I don't know.

Thumbs down just from a security perspective.

And I don't think sovereigns who gives a fuck like that's just.

Who like how do you manage those keys?

What are the rules?

Who's writing the rules?

How do you make sure it's not being stolen?

Like, you know, whatever.

Get out of here.

But but but private corporations have a reason to hold on to that corn and use it in a productive way.

So to me, interesting when the private bitcoin yield companies become the yield.

Right.

Be kind of fun.

Yeah.

I think you mentioned this to bond or like I think that this.

Oh, by the way, I might wait.

So I like Nick's work, Nick.

Nick Bhatia.

I think he's great.

I remember when he came out with the risk free rate in Bitcoin being lightning transfer.

Did he renege on that?

Did he take that back or did you.

Is that what you were saying earlier or did I misunderstand?

No, no, no.

I'm not saying that he did that.

Like I remember it.

I remember him coming out with that and that being like awesome.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't think he's ever reneged on it.

I think it's a sound theory and the rest of that.

So, yeah, I think it's I think it's fantastic.

And this whole like, you know, sub 10, like almost near 10 percent routing by blocks node or whatever it was is totally bonkers.

And I think that's maybe the most, you know, if we're going to recap here at the very end, like I think maybe that's.

At least off the top of my head, probably the most like important news is that is that that level of yield can be generated by a lightning node.

Now, obviously, that's going to compress at some point.

But honestly, like to get any amount of Bitcoin back risk free is amazing.

Like I don't care if it's 50 basis points or two percent or three percent.

Like that's a huge number on top of the 40 percent kegger that it's already giving you.

So I think I think that's a huge deal.

And that's got to be watched.

Amboss, you know, has like they have a rails product now that there's a waitlist for, which I think is super interesting.

Maybe they're trying to obfuscate the difficulty of running a lightning node for just retard plebs like myself who just want to be like, someone give me money.

It's also hard to like, you know, because if your node goes down like there's a lot of.

You know, who's holding the bag if you were in the middle of a transaction?

You know, there are some my understanding of it.

It could be wrong with like some double spend issues with lightning.

If you're if you lose connectivity with your node while you're in the middle of a transaction.

So it's like it could come back and bite you or somebody else.

So I I think it's there's value in the product.

Only there is a node that could solve that problem.

Maybe we'll get there one day.

Next episode on Better Buy Bitcoin.

Kyber Nick Hickey's notes or whatever they're called.

But no, yeah, Zach, I mean, that's 100 percent correct.

The thing that's going to happen is that the technology, the technology is just not evenly distributed.

We're still processing how to deal with lightning.

And the consequences of that are just going to take a long time to figure out and for them to build products around it and open source and whatever.

And people internalize what's happening and the rest of it.

But like once those start going, they're not going to stop going.

And it's going to be it's just especially if we can do the asset things.

I've talked to you guys about this a little bit.

Like if you can do the assets on lightning, which you can use stable coins on lightning, which you can.

Apparently stable coins are a big thing at the conference to whatever.

But at some point it's like, well, wait a second.

If we just do assets, well, isn't a company's like stock an asset?

Why can't we just put company stock on lightning?

And just not have a corporation as it's defined in the legacy infrastructure at all.

It's just entire a corporation that entirely exists on lightning.

Now, there's a whole slew of problems and difficulties that like would have to go into that, of course.

But you're like, it's not it's not that much of a leap to jump there.

Right. Yeah. Once you get that, then it's like, well, what is Wall Street?

What's the purpose of this? Yeah.

Yeah. Wall Street is just a bunch of depreciating assets and the form of real estate in one of the most saturated and overpopulated parts of the United States.

That just so happened to have a vault that has a lot of paper that moves back and forth that tells people they own things that aren't real.

Hey, be more bearish. Gosh, man. Oh, man.

No, that's that's the bullish case for Bitcoin right there.

Like, you know, Wall Street is the. Yeah. Can you can you state the legacy system more depressingly?

Is that we do that? We should we should have a like a midnight three drink minimum show called Be More Bearish where we just get blackout drunk.

Big bearish bears, not not not West Hollywood bears, but blackout drunk.

The Berenstein bears do Bitcoin. Oh, man.

We're getting there. We're getting there. What? Oh, hey, this is this is good.

Any any kind of last, you know, thoughts on the Bitcoin conference? Hard for.

I'm curious about your thoughts, J.D., what what are your. One, what where does it get better, but also, you know.

Last thoughts in the conference and the whole thing. I think my last thought is I really am bullish and excited about the niches.

The riches are in the niches. And as Bitcoin continues to become the denominator more and more, more people are going to push into their niche.

That's going to make everything better. People are going to become better at manufacturing, you know, in the United States or whatever country it is in the world.

They're going to get better at using agents. They're going to get better at meat space.

They're going to get better at just being a good contributor. And part of that, too, is just being better parents.

You know, it's like being better fathers and friends and, you know, it's going to make things mean something again.

And so the the net net is we're going to get a lot less fiat and a lot more function and a lot more value.

And so that's what I'm excited about. I think it's going to be, you know, probably a five to 10 year pendulum to get to that point.

But I'm optimistic that we're going to get to a much better world as we continue to get a Bitcoin standard.

But I do think we are not. There is a nonzero risk of a hot war before we get there.

And that's something that I'm not excited about, because with drones and optimists and all this other stuff, you know, those war dog things that are just frickin terrifying.

Like it's going to be, you know, I'm super bullish and super optimistic, but I feel like there is probably a wave of pain on the way there.

Yeah, I yeah, I would agree. I think there's definitely a wave of pain coming and however that pain manifests, I hope it's.

More, you know, extended dull pain and quick and sharp pain, you know, but.

You know, I think that. I don't know, I, I, I kind of spend a lot of time thinking about how the pattern is going to play out, how price is going to play out, right?

It's going to be price is always reflective of some behavior and things are a lot muddier now.

And I'm curious if all of this leverage that companies like Stryker offering is going to be one of the things that leads to another Bitcoin bear.

One of the, one of the things I was always, I couldn't figure out was why, why is the interest rate so high on Bitcoin loans?

And, you know, it's been very high for a long, for a long time.

Unchained had comically high loans for a while when they were like the only game in town.

And now we're getting to like maybe eight at the best, you know, eight, nine, ten.

So, and you could imagine that like maybe the, the cheapest.

I think it's a five, like 5.2.

Yeah.

I mean, I would, that would be, I, that would be shocked if I, I don't know.

Where's that?

Where was five?

ABR, A-B-R, something like that.

Definitely.

You are the yield.

Never heard of it before.

You are the yield.

Correct.

Yeah.

Don't do that.

Do you think they send money to my Albi?

Just send it to my Albi.

Trust me, I'm good for it.

But, but, you know, it'll be interesting to see how these leverage products affect the price over the next couple of years.

You know, I guess, I guess what I'm trying to say is like, it's really easy on an order book.

If you're taking leverage out on Kraken or whatever, Bybit, for people to figure out what your, what your liquidation points are.

But it's interesting.

I want to know, is Strike, is there some deal that Strike has where they're selling information about their customers, you know, liquidation levels?

And is there an incentive for the large whales in this space to get a bunch of plebs levered up, nuke them all, take their Bitcoin?

Because who's providing the capital, right?

Who's providing, you know, billions of dollars of capital for Bitcoin?

JP Morgan.

Exactly.

You know, Cantor Fitzgerald, you know.

BlackRock.

Jack Mahler's friends, whoever he's hanging out with now.

So, you know, I, I, I, I'm totally down for Bitcoin-backed loans, all about it.

But, you know, this shit's complicated and if you don't have any experience with that kind of stuff, you know, you're liable to get wrecked, right?

A lot of people see a big number.

We go up to $200,000 or $300,000 and they're like, oh, I'm going to take out a loan.

It's like the worst time to possibly take out a loan against Bitcoin is at highs.

And so if we see a wave of that, who stands to benefit from liquidations on these private books?

You know, it's one thing to do it on a crypto platform.

It's another thing, you know, to have these private loans rugged a bunch of people.

So I don't know.

I'm just saying be cautious, you know, be skeptical.

Ask questions.

Don't, don't, don't over lever at all.

Don't do more than like maybe 5% of your whole stack.

You know, just don't get liquidated.

Do not yeet into anything.

Exactly.

I think, yeah.

For me, I think the final takeaway is going to be, I think you're right about that.

It feels like we are now at the end of the beginning.

It feels like we are exiting phase one.

And maybe we haven't started phase two yet.

Maybe it's like still 5, 10 years away.

But it's like, okay, you got to start asking the question, like, what else can we even do in phase one?

Right.

We got all the corporates.

Cool.

What is phase two?

Phase two is going to be get like really actually start to change the culture.

Actually start to affect change in the rest of the world.

Whether the rest of the world likes it or not.

Because we're going to be Bitcoiners and we're going to have all the agencies.

So we're just going to be able to do whatever we want.

You know, for better or worse, but that's just going to happen.

And that feels more like a different vibe than just having whatever.

Like the few early adopters have their vision about what it was right now.

There's an entire new generation of Bitcoiners.

It's coming up.

It's like, well, wait a second.

It's not that I have to invent the new thing and try and figure out what it's going to be.

It's like people have already gone down unbelievably long roads in terms of rabbit holes and figured a whole bunch of stuff out that I can just like read, download.

Cool. I got it.

Now I'm like up to speed and I have a new idea.

We're going to be able to bring all of that stuff forward and push in ways that we've never been able to push on before.

And I think that's going to be phase two.

And that's going to be how we affect art, how we affect culture, how we affect cities, how we affect human relationships.

Like how we basically just gut the system of fiat.

And gutting the fiat out of the world is going to be a long and painful process.

To JD, your point, there may be kinetic consequences to that.

And we're going to have to go through it.

But, man, it's going to be awesome.

And it's going to be so much better on the other side.

I'm going to take a little prediction here.

Maybe we record this one and play it back in ten years.

But let's just go with the Star Wars trilogy.

First movie was A New Hope.

Second movie is Empire Strikes Back.

Book two, I think it's going to be a lot worse.

It's not going to be as fun.

I think the Empire is going to strike back here in phase two.

And then phase three is Return of the Jedi where we have to re-up our values, fork the chain socially, and get back to Bitcoiner values.

But I think that Wall Street entering here, I think there's going to be a handful of Bitcoiners who absolutely ruin their lives with how much wealth they have.

And they don't know how to handle that much energy.

And they're going to get destroyed.

They're going to get wrecked.

And I think there's going to be a whole other group of people who survive this that you wouldn't think.

I think some of the most ardent Bitcoin voices right now are very liable to get absolutely fucking destroyed when they become billionaires.

So the Empire will strike back that way.

And then we have to renew in part three.

All I took from that is that Satoshi is coming back.

So I appreciate you confirming this.

He's not.

It's John Nash.

He's dead.

Move on.

Hey, man, if Brian Johnston can live till 1,000, we can bring John Nash back.

He's not.

He's going to die way sooner than the rest of us.

He's fucking dying in like 10 years for sure.

And it's going to be like, oh, my God, the guy who spent billions of dollars on being healthy died of cardiovascular issues because his cholesterol was too low.

I think it's going to be more ironic when he just like chokes on something like he choked on like a strawberry or something like something benign and stupid.

It's like he bought those $98 strawberries from Whole Foods and choked on one.

It's like, what?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think I buy that.

I like that one.

He'll just slip on a banana.

Now we're talking.

He was loading up on potassium.

Potassium overload.

Sweet.

Well, thanks for jumping in.

Thank you, everybody, for jumping on to listen through.

And we should be back later this week with another regularly scheduled program of whatever the hell this is.

JD started drinking at about 9 a.m.

This is actually coffee.

Anyway, we're sorry you had to listen to this, but you also clicked on it, so it's your own damn fault.

Fuck you.

I digress.

Okay.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.