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As the CEO of Kit, Nathan Barry has a front row seat to what’s working in the most successful creator businesses.
On The Nathan Barry Show, he interviews top creators and dives into the inner workings of their businesses in his live coaching sessions.
You get unique insight into how creator businesses work and what you can do to increase results in your own business.
One of the things Nathan is passionate about is helping you create leverage.
Creator Flywheels let you create many copies of yourself so you don’t get bogged down with the little things in your business. Flywheels will help you reach a place where you can focus on revenue instead of busywork.
Tune in weekly for new episodes with ideas and tips for growing your business. You’ll hear discussions around building an audience, earning a living as a creator, and Nathan’s insights on scaling a software company to $100M.
Learn how to get more results with less effort and:
Grow faster over time.
Work less hard over time.
Make more money over time.
Rachel Rodgers: Sometimes we overthink it. Everything doesn't have to be the most revolutionary thing. It could just be something cool. It could just be a cool brand, or just a different angle to do something that's currently done, but you're doing it in a new way.
Attention is power, and creators harness it better than anyone else. But they're not using that attention to create the biggest impact possible and are vastly under monetized.
Hi, I'm Rachel Rogers. My co-host, Nathan Barry, and I believe you can be a billion dollar creator. Sound impossible? Over the last ten years, we followed each other on our own quest to build billion dollar companies. We've studied creators and seen how entrepreneurs build traditional audiences and use them as a launching pad for a massive business. And it got us thinking, if it can happen for them, it can happen for us. And if it can happen for us, then why not you?
Billion Dollar Creator is a show teaching creators how to capture attention and turn it into real wealth. We will deep dive into brands, celebrities, and entrepreneurs who have done it before and show you how you can apply it to your business as an everyday creator.
Join us weekly as we learn from both the wild successes and the missed opportunities, the grand gestures and the integral mistakes. And through that, help you become an expert at building your audience on your journey as a billion dollar creator.
Nathan Barry: There's a saying if someone were to buy your business, what's the first thing they would change? Basically, the idea is there's probably things you're like oh, that's fine. Whatever. Someone else is coming in like how are you, but no. We're firing that vendor, or whatever it is. We're putting real SOPs in place for this, all that.
But another version of that I like to think about is if someone else, and pick a specific person. If Rachel Rodgers was the CEO of ConvertKit, what would she do? The thing that it made me think of is the level that you have like that high end community, right. You've got people who are totally bought in, who are coaching and training across the different levels in your business.
ConvertKit, for example, kind of operate all the customers are the same, for the most part, or the same level, same style of interaction. We have our annual event, but there's not like this group of super fans, or we don't engage with our affiliates in the same way that that we could. So I just had this visual of the way that you would run it. You'd have this group of like 100 to 500 people out of the 50,000 total, that you were really pouring into, and they're your evangelists out there. I'm you could do that so much better.
Rachel Rodgers: Yes, exactly. Then it's like oh, I don't have to run ads anymore. Or there's something you can cut because you have all these people out there. It's also, like you said, there's network effects. So what else does being a member of ConvertKit the community get me? So for sure you should totally do either an event or like a community, like a Facebook group, related to the creator network.
Because if I can meet the creators behind these newsletters, they might be more likely to place my ads. It might be I can find myself in more places and just exchange. People just want to be grouped together. It's hard to find people who are doing what you're doing, particularly when you get to the higher levels. So, yeah, I feel like there's a whole creator network. The creator network should have its own event and community right. So yeah.
Nathan: Because people are already connecting and all that. I'm curious as we're talking about if someone else were to run your business, do you ever think about that? Of what they would do when they come in?
Rachel: What someone else would do in my business? Yes. First of all so somebody like you, for example, you'd probably be okay, what's the software we can build? What can we automate? You know what I mean? It makes perfect sense because I have all of these clients in this community who are all doing the exact same thing, and they need the same tools right. So it's it would make sense to build a tool for them that's specific to them.
It's something we thought about like. With the coach cert, we were I could see building a coaching tool, similar to like what Laura Roeder is doing. Because as we're talking about this and we're training them to be coaches we're thinking about well, how do you track? I take notes every time I do a coaching call. Then I need to find those notes before the next coaching call, but sometimes I'm not at my house, and I don't have my notebook with me.
Now I'm in trouble because now I'm what did we talk about last time? So if I had a system where it was all automated, and it was like I was typing into this thing, and then it almost like gets attached to their next session so I could review it before I talk to them. Almost like having files on your clients. That's one problem that I see with coaches, but there's others that you could kind of build into like a, was it you that wrote about this? But one of the things that was becoming popular with software was like creating the specific to the industry.
Nathan: Oh, like doing niche in particular industry.
Rachel: Yes, like an Infusionsoft. What do they call it when it's like the? What do they call that software?
Nathan: Yeah. Vertical market software.
Rachel: Is that what it is? That's not the phrase I was thinking of.
Nathan: There's a company called Constellation Software that all they do, this is might be the nerdy SaaS business version of it. There's probably like a more consumer friendly version. But there's this company called Constellation Software, which I think is just insane what they've done. They basically use all their own capital, and they grow entirely through acquisitions.
They're like many, many billions in valuation, revenue, or something. But what they like to find is they don't want to buy something that's used by everybody. They're like hey, what's the niche tool used by realtors that then we could buy for 20 million bucks, and it spits off a few million a year in cash flow. They do that, and they own vertical market software everywhere. So I think they own hundreds and hundreds of companies. So yeah, that same idea.
Rachel: Right. Like having, I think the phrase I was looking for was CRM. But like the CRM for people who do construction, right?
Nathan: Oh, yeah.
Rachel: Or like the CRM for people who do, like these niches that have all of these like sort of, like the CRM for retail or the CRM for like gyms. You know what I mean? Like Mind Valley is what comes to mind for that. It's like maybe email’s a part of it, but it's not necessarily focused around email. It's what's the software that you run your business? What's the software that you run your law practice on?
Because there I definitely used, I don't even remember the name of it anymore, but there was a software that I was highly committed to when I was running my law practice because it just made everything that I needed to do easy.
So I think of creating the CRM for coaches specifically on just the database side of how to manage your business, and your clients, and all of that, and all of the different projects. Because the other thing too is coaches tend to launch all this shit. I'm doing a mastermind, and then I'm doing group coaching, and then I'm doing these retreats, and then I'm doing one on ones. Then keeping track of it all also making sure you're not overwhelming yourself, or basically you have the capacity to do all of that.
Because, for example, we have a calculator that we've created and a spreadsheet for how many people we have the capacity to coach because I have a team of coaches that do one on ones. How many one on ones can we do? Because if we include one on one in a program, we have to know can they deliver that? So we have like a calculator for based on how many coaches we have and how many hours they do a week, how many coaching sessions can we do in a week across every program? You know?
So like stuff like that, that's really interesting. So anyway, I think that to answer your question, I feel like somebody like you or somebody who was more tech savvy would look and probably find a software solution in here. To your point, that's sort of like the Billion Dollar Creator path to say what's the software that all of your clients need that you could sell to all of them, and that would be a no brainer? They would all immediately buy it, or switch from whatever it is that they have because they feel attached to the creator.
Also they share the values of the creator. So that makes them say, “Yes, I'd rather pay you than Joe Schmoe software.” Especially if it's a large company. So, yes, I think there's definitely opportunity for sure. But that's not how my brain works, right?
Nathan: Well, you’ve got to find what tool is going to play to your strengths. Yeah, not really tool, but what business model and all of that, but it's a fun exercise to think about someone specific and say okay, how would they do that?
There's a podcast that I like called Business Breakdowns on the Colossus Network. They just do these breakdowns of, they pick a business and just bring in an expert. Try to understand it. They'll take like Trader Joe's or some businesses and say okay, what's their unique angle? How do they get these low prices? What do they see as their flywheel? Just break down this business?
I like to think okay if I were to try to run ConvertKit in the Trader Joe's model or something else, and just play those and see if it sparks anything. Because sometimes it doesn't at all. Other times, you're like oh, that's cool. You like journal on and you write it down. Maybe you come up with something, maybe you don't, but it gets you out of your box of how you think.
Rachel: Yeah, your lane. It's so true because I feel like founders have superpowers. It's like what is your specific superpower? What's the thing that like you're really good at? That's the thing you tend to lean. It's like the thing you know you're really good at that you build your business model around it, and you lean on it because you know that that's something that's reliable, that reliably delivers. For me, I would say it's community, being able to build communities. That's always been what's attracted people.
Nathan: Where you're best.
Rachel: Yeah. So that's our superpower. But you know other people have different superpowers. So that's why hiring is so key because you're like okay, this is my weakness. Now at this level, who can I get that has that as their superpower that I can bring in and get that superpower pairing with mine and working together? But then, of course, those hires are very expensive.
Nathan: There's certain things that you buy at different levels. Speaking of superpowers, did you watch the Alex Hormozi webinar? Did you see that?
Rachel: I did. I saw it.
Nathan: What did you think? I want your opinion. There's so many different things in there, but yeah.
Rachel: What did I think? Okay. You know what’s interesting to me is I think in terms of community, right? So if someone has a large community or they have a large following, I think it’s interesting. I think it’s useful, right? Like he created content that’s low cost, that’s easy for people to access. I like that part. I think that’s great. It’s easy in some ways and not in others, right? It’s easy in the price. The price is great. The price is either free, or you can buy the collector’s version. Giving away the book for free and giving away a course to go with it for free.
The part I don’t like about it is I feel like in some ways, it’s accessible because it’s free. In other ways, it’s not accessible because it’s free. Because what are the chances that people, I feel like people devalue things that are free. So if it cost you something, you're like well, I need to get my money’s worth. So you're going to show up and do the work. I've seen this a lot.
So how many people are motivated enough to read through the whole book or go through the course he created to go with it to get the win, right? Without any community, without any place to ask questions, to lean on each other for accountability. There are all kinds of studies that show that 95% of your success or failure is based on the community that you're in, right? Who are your friends.
They studied students in school. If you were somebody who was getting C’s, and you started hanging out with your friends who get A’s. All your friends get A’s. Before you know it, your grades start going up. Maybe you don’t get an A, but now you're a B plus student. It’s because you start hanging out with people who have study habits, who are doing things.
I see it even in my own, like I used to be a couch potato. Now all of my closest friends and family members are really into their fitness, and now I've become super into my fitness, right? It’s like they’ve rubbed off on me. That is true.
So if you give people the resources but no support system to win with those resources, are you really helping them? I think that is a valid question. So I think providing the resource is great, but I don’t really see a lot of community related to it. I think one of the things about community that’s key is that it’s not about just the founder or the leader of the community. The members of the community are the hero. They have to be the hero. There's no hero in that story other than him, right?
Like there's no examples, really. I think he gave a couple of examples of people who like took a gym and did something with it, but someone who’s just getting started. Are they going to be able to get that win? Are they going to be able to piece together those lessons and get that win? So I think it’s exceptional that he was able to get 200,000 people on a webinar.
Nathan: Yeah, it’s a lot of people.
Rachel: It’s a lot of people. So I think that’s great, and that’s admirable. It shows that things like that can totally happen. How big can you think? I think a lot of us just settle for less. A lot of people just settle for less, but if you want to go really big you can. So I think that that was impressive. I think that yeah, those are my two takeaways. How about you?
Nathan: Yeah, that makes sense. I was definitely impressed with the size of the webinar. I think they had 200,000 people live and a bunch more watching the replay and all of that. One thing that I heard a lot is after COVID, that as people have started to travel more, and they were sick of being totally locked up. Like you had this big spike of everything's online. These online tools we're recording right now with Riverside, that got super popular. Clubhouse had its moments and then was gone.
Then everyone was like look, I want to go back and interact with my friends in the real world. I don't want to do this. So I heard people in the creator space talking about webinars are dead. You can't actually get a bunch people to show up to a webinar. They don't convert the same way. Everything else. Then Alex comes in and is like how about I run one of the biggest webinars ever?
So, like trends are a factor, but you can entirely overcome that. So I see too many people will say oh, well based on seasonality, our numbers are down. I've also seen other founders of other teams that are screw seasonality we're going to do something counter trend. There is this trend happening, but we're going to put in the effort and the skill to overcome the trend rather than just being at the mercy of it. So I thought that was super cool.
Rachel: I love that. I completely agree. It annoys me when people are well, the conditions are such that this can't possibly happen. I'm well like, you're just accepting that. Or you could say what do I have to do in these conditions to still get the win? Just work harder or do what's necessary.
Nathan: Yeah, I think you name the conditions because it's important context. You're like hey, we're going out surfing today. The waves are this, and there's some extra wind and whatever. So here's how we're tweaking our plan. But that's it.
You're not saying this is how it is and so whatever comes from happens. You can see it in your own life and business. Too many people are just like yeah well. So that was one thing. I thought it was really interesting how he focused on, did the urgency. Well, he deliberately said it of rewarding people for showing up. He was saying this is what I'm going to give you if you showed up live.
What he said is I'm trying to train you that if I say show up live, it will be worth it, you will see that it is in fact worth it. Because I'm basically saying I'm going to keep doing this in various forms and want people to think like oh, I could make it live, but who knows what. I was thinking of doing something else then. Then your friend’s like no but show up live because you get, last time he gave this huge value to everyone who was there live.
Then also you have to be there at that point in the webinar, like the stay to the end. Because sometimes the show up live or stay to the end, it's so hollow and none of that matters. So I just thought that the way that he actually did it, and I think followed through on it was really interesting. Good hooks to keep people.
A couple other things. I wish he hired a designer. Obviously, it's not needed, and this is the designer in me talking, but those slides looked so bad. It gives off an internet marketer vibe. You might as well bust out some yellow highlighter and have some flashy Buy Now buttons. If you just put a level of design for that, spend two grand, someone will make those slides, still convert super well, still be really engaging and on brand, but just have this level of polish and class to them. That it doesn't have.
Now he might argue that no, this look of I just made this myself in PowerPoint adds to my brand. Maybe you can make an argument. That's not my vibe. I would need to design it better or hire a designer.
Rachel: Right.
Nathan: I know you are too because your stuff looks pretty good.
Rachel: Oh yeah. I'm highly into my design. I think that I think it's important to recognize what people value. I think when you make things look more consumable and easier to read and consume and enjoy, and when they're beautiful. I think they're just valued a little bit more. I don't know. It just makes you feel oh, what is this? It feels more exciting when it's like beautifully designed versus when it's kind of thrown together.
So I thought that was interesting too. It seemed very intentional. I think this is actually how businesses should be built. Where you look at what are we going to go all in on and make that our top priority? Then what are those things that we absolutely do not care about, and we're not going to spend a single minute of time or energy on it?
It actually reminds me of Ramit because that's his sort of thinking on like finances, right? That you overspend on the areas that you really care about that really contribute to your happiness in a big way. Then you just completely spend nothing, or the bare minimum, on anything that you don't totally care about. So I'm guessing that there's some of that going on there. Because he said that he spent a million dollars on this like promotion.
Nathan: The stage and the studio and the promotion. Yeah, everything.
Rachel: Ads and who knows what else. Maybe getting the books printed? I don't know what all was involved in it. So clearly, he was willing to spend a lot, but he didn't want to spend for that. So it seems very intentional. So yeah, that's interesting.
Nathan: Yeah, the other thing was he did a really good job of anchoring the value. Building up something that you expect it to be really expensive. He was like, he went to $100,000 if I were to coach on this for years, or you know $10,000 and all that, and then ultimately gave it all away for free and then was go buy the book. So it took you through this arc of where you're like oh yeah, with that, I have to go buy the book. I think it makes a lot of sense. I wonder what the goal is.
Rachel: Well, there was a frame there with the buying of the book that I thought was interesting. So he was basically like this is for people who basically need some help, need to figure things out, can't buy one of these expensive coaching programs. So this is for you, right. It's also for people who are already having some success, already winning, and they want to help others. Right.
So I feel like he's sort of framed the book sale as buy a couple of collector's items books because I don't think it was available. Was it available to just buy one? You had to buy like either three or 10?
Nathan: Something like that, yeah.
Rachel: Yeah. So he's basically saying if you're somebody who wants to help others because you're already having success, and you can make this investment then make this investment and then you can give these books away to people in your life who need it. So I thought the framing for that was pretty good.
Nathan: Yep. Seth Godin did that years ago with one of his many books, I can't remember which one, where you had to buy two. It was buy one for yourself and one to give away. When we first did our I Am a Creator Book for ConvertKit. It’s telling all these stories of creators who are changing their lives through the audience they built and the living they're now able to earn.
We first did that model where like it was by two. The price was really affordable and all of that, but it was basically buy one for yourself, give one to someone else to spread this message and help other people. So yeah, he framed it all really, really well. I liked the meta example in his talk where he's here's how I applied it. Here's how I learned this concept.
Rachel: Yes, that actually was the brilliance of it.
Nathan: I've applied it in this launch. Yeah. Then how you can apply it. Like that was a really smart thing. It was just enough structure to the talk that kept you coming back. You knew where you were at in it as an audience member. You knew where he was going, but not so much that it was like I know where you're going man, this is boring. It was really well structured and outlined.
Rachel: I think so too. I like the fact that he was his own test case because he's like I'm proving the concept right now because you're here at this event with all these other people. Super smart. Sorry, what did you just say? There was another piece to it that I was going to comment on.
Nathan: I don't know. Just talking about the structure of how he organized the talk.
Rachel: Oh, the structure and the flow of it. Yes, I also noted that, like he said how long it was going to be, and then it was exactly that time, which I think is interesting too. Because I feel like that's one of the problems with webinars is that they go on forever sometimes. You keep people really long.
I notice that if I, this has happened to us at my company where like we say we're going to do a webinar from one to two. I know that I tend to talk long. Once I get going, I've got a lot to say, and so then I wind up going over. So I usually tell my team say 75 minutes or say 90 minutes. If it's shorter, great, but I'd rather like say the longer time so they know what to expect and plan for it if they want to be there versus just keeping them late because then you lose a lot of people when you hit that hour mark.
So I thought that was very smart. If you looked at it too, he started going into the pitch around the 45 minute mark. So under an hour, he was going into his pitch. Which the pitch was, like you said, very meta. So it was interesting.
Nathan: Yeah. Okay. Well, I think that's interesting. Yeah, we'll play around with webinars more. It's something that we do a bunch of webinars and workshops for ConvertKit. So I'm always studying and learning. We'll keep doing that. I don't know that we'll have a whole studio built out, but yeah.
Rachel: One other note that I wanted to say too about because I saw a lot of people talking. Some people like that was so brilliant. He's going to put all business coaches out of business. Courses will never be bought again, right. I'm like that's not happening. For all the reasons that I started with, like community, coaching, all of those other pieces that are important for people to get success.
Also, because some people will really resonate with his style of teaching and then some people won't. That's why there are many people who teach, right. That's why there's competition in almost every industry. Because this vibe resonates with me, this culture resonates with me, this brand resonates with me. This one doesn't. So it's just about you choosing what catches your vibe, and who you want to learn from.
So anyway, so there's that piece. I think that that's not true. Then there's people who are I hate this guy for a million reasons. They don't like the way he dresses. They don't like all the things. Everybody's talking about it. I'm this is success.
This is actually what success looks like. It's people loving you, and people hating you. The reality is usually somewhere in between. So don't let it go to your head when everyone tells you you're the bomb. You probably are in some ways, and also you got things to work on. Right?
So I just think it's so interesting that the polarized. Some people absolutely were so enthralled and loved it so much, and the other people who like absolutely hated it and wanted to tear it down in 1,000 different ways. To me, that’s success. You've created something that's causing people to talk, that a lot of people are drawn to, and a lot of people are going to be repelled because your particular brand should be strong enough that it does that. That it attracts who your people are, and it repels the people who are not for you.
So that's what branding is. So I just thought it was interesting to see it. Like literally, you'd see one message about someone who hates him and like the next one is I love him. So it's so interesting. The other thing though that bums me out, I don't know him, and I'm not I'm not a fan or not a fan. Like I just have no skin in the game and in this conversation.
But I absolutely hate that when people are having their like moment of success, that so many people attack their person. Like their personality, how they look, say mean things about his wife. I'm just like why? Why do we have to go there? Just so you don't like it. Yes. It's just so, I don't know. It's like we feel comfortable being cruel to people who we feel like have celebrity or have success. I hate that part.
Nathan: I saw some interaction where people were talking about why is he always wearing a nasal strip? That looks so weird. You know and he even has a video where he answers it. He’s like why do you always wear a nasal strip? He's like because I have trouble breathing through my nose, and this makes it much easier to breathe through my nose. I don't care how it looks.
But then people are, there was some comment on YouTube where someone's I can't take advice from this guy. He looks ridiculous. Let it go. The man is just delivering a ton of value, doesn't care what you think about his appearance or anything else. He's actually quite legit in everything he's doing in business. Yeah, I appreciate how he's always giving.
Rachel: Yes, yeah. So yeah, I mean whatever. Sometimes it's the dregs of the internet, right?
Nathan: Welcome to the internet. You get what you pay for. You didn't pay anything to. So there's going to be comments and nonsense.
Rachel: Exactly. One question I have for you. This is something that I saw come up, and I'm curious what your thoughts are on it. Somebody who was not a fan of Alex said that they felt like the webinar was designed to build trust, right? So like he gives something big away so that he can build trust with an audience so that later members of that audience will come to him and want to sell their company to him because he runs acquisition.com, right, where he's buying businesses.
So he wants to build trust with them so that he can then essentially prey on them and take their equity in their companies or something like that. What are your thoughts on that? What's your opinion on that?
Nathan: Yeah. So I mean this ties in really nicely with the Billion Dollar Creator idea because you're asking the question what is the best way to monetize an audience? You have all this attention. What's the highest ROI I can get from it?
A lot of people are saying oh, Alex could be selling this as a course. He could be making tens of millions, 50 million, all of this money off of selling content. He's like no, I don't want to do that. You can go another route. You could say all right, we could focus it on growing our own businesses. He does that somewhat, but he doesn't want his name to be, if he builds up a business and wants to sell it, he doesn't want his name and face to be tied to it so much. So he's hesitant a little bit with how much he does that promotion.
The whole premise that we came to with this show is you get equity. If you can use attention to get equity, that is the highest ROI. So Alex is over here going, “All right, I'm going to use attention. I'm going to put out ridiculous amounts of free content. I'm going to book my private jet to go fly around to get on all the podcasts that I can, record in person, and all of this. Get as much attention as possible. I'm going to monetize it through saying hey, sell me a small portion of your business. Let me buy equity in your thing, and help you grow it.”
So I think, from that perspective, it's a brilliant form of monetization. He's making long term. This is not the one year game. This is the 10, 20, 50 year game. He’ll make significantly more with that model than anything else that he could be selling to make money right now.
All that said, I think I have heard from people that some of the term sheets on acquisition.com and some of these other people who follow a similar model are not great. It's kind of the Shark Tank model where it provides great entertainment. There's notoriety. Maybe you can say hey, we have these people as investors. But if you actually look at like a Shark Tank term sheet, it's garbage. You shouldn't raise money from them. There's much better sources of capital out there right now.
So I've never seen an acquisition.com term sheet. But if you were smart enough to build your business to a million a year, 5 million, 10 million a year in revenue, then obviously raise money from somebody you respect. If you respect Alex, go down that road, but have your lawyers look it over. You were smart enough to build a $10 million business. You're smart enough to walk something by your mentors and your lawyers and say hey, should I do this?
So at that level, no. No one's being taken advantage of. We're all smart adults who have smart counsel and have gotten to this point. Yeah, that's my take.
Rachel: I agree with that take. I think sometimes it feels kind of patriarchal to be well, they're being preyed upon. I'm like everyone can't be being preyed upon. We were all adults making adult decisions every day. Like Target preys upon us. We go into Target for milk, and we come out with $500 worth of shit, right. But do we feel taken advantage of? No, we made adult decisions in there to buy certain things.
Is their store completely set up and the whole experience and the brand set up to make us want to buy a ton of shit from there? Yes. But we don't come for them in the same way that we come for individual creators. So I just think it's important to point that out and just gives people some things to think about. I'm not saying no one ever gets preyed upon in this industry because certainly, it does go down. But I don't think it's the 3 million plus in profit business that that is getting preyed on upon when they want to sell and get out. So, yeah, I just thought that was an interesting take.
Nathan: Yeah, if you think about people who get preyed upon, maybe who don't have experience in the business or the industry. Or if you think about like payday loans, that is definitely a predatory industry. That's targeted people who don't have financial experience and savvy or other options.
Whereas acquisitions.com, it's targeted at people who are savvy enough to have built a business to this level of scale, have plenty of other options, especially in a time of right now where capital is pretty abundant, and they want to invest in and buy companies that with no investment would do just fine.
It's not like we're coming in with a bridge loan to try to save the company before it goes under and before you lay people off. It's like no, we want to invest in businesses that are already doing great, and we just want to help accelerate that.
It's a group with lots of other options. I mean a final takeaway just if someone has the reality distortion field, like what Steve Jobs was famous for, where you just you want to buy the thing from them, be around them, like everything they say is great. Just be aware of that. If you go in, know that you're hanging out with someone you view as a celebrity, and that's going to color your otherwise really sound business decisions.
It might color it 2% or it might color it 50%, but have someone else where you're like hey, I'm going to be naturally really excited about this term sheet that I get because I think that Alex is amazing, or whoever we're raising money from. So it's just have this other person out there who's like Alex who? I don't have any opinion on him. I'll just tell you whether or not this is a good deal, and if it compares to other sources of capital and growth that you can get.
Rachel: Exactly. I mean, that's why you have lawyers. My lawyer saved me from a deal recently. I have a property that I was going to sell just to kind of get it off the books and to get my capital out of it. It had increased in value significantly. He was no, I cannot let you sell it. Literally, that's what he said, verbatim.
I'm like why? He started telling me why. The value of the properties are huge. He's like if you renovate it and put X amount into it, you're going to see 3x what you would sell it for today. So he was like hell no. So I'm like okay fine. I guess I'll do the renovation to make a whole lot more money. But yes, lawyers, they come in handy.
Nathan: They do. Okay. So you had an interesting point really tying together what Alex’s, his whole business model?
Rachel: Okay, I'm sorry. Before you do that, one more thing that I just have to call out. You said that capital is abundant, which I agree in some senses that loan and access to loans are. But I think it’s important to note that for especially Black women, it is not abundant. That it's very hard to get capital and the investors. There's, what is it, 2% of investment goes to literally all other people of color.
Nathan: Yeah, it's crazy low.
Rachel: It's terrible. So capital is abundant if you're a white guy. I don't think capital is abundant if you're not. It can be in some ways like there's access to like crowdfunding, and there's different all sources of you can get a loan through Stripe against your receivables. There's different options that are available that are accessible to everybody. So I agree in some ways there are some types of capital that is more accessible. But investment in particular still is not, unfortunately. But changing. Yeah, lots of new funds coming up. So that’s a good thing.
Nathan: I agree with that. I think if you look at the historical trends of capital, for all groups, is becoming more abundant than it has been. Obviously, certain groups far outpacing others. So like fundraising is easier than it has been. Then yeah, if you're in certain categories of network, race, all these other things then you're going to have an easier time for sure.
Rachel: Yes.
Nathan: So I think the accurate thing to say is it's becoming more abundant, and your access to capital is widely varied based on all kinds of factors.
Nathan: So the point that you brought up that I think is really interesting with Alex is that he is optimizing for equity and taking this billion dollar creator mindset. So I want to talk about that. We're going to make a segment on the show, Billion Dollar Breakdowns. I think I'd be really interesting to take two creators and break down their business based on how we would run it if we had to optimize for equity and build something of massive value.
Rachel: Yes.
Nathan: The first one I think would be interesting is James Clear. So James has been a friend for a long time. I think it’s last year or the year before he had the number one bestselling book on all of Amazon. So Atomic Habits beat out like Michelle Obama and Goodnight Moon, which that's pretty impressive.
Rachel: Hard to beat Goodnight Moon. It’s one of my favorite books to read to my kids.
Nathan: Yeah. But I think what's interesting, he's selling tons of books. He's getting paid, who knows what, 100 grand per speaking gig. He has all these different options, sponsorships in his newsletter, everything else. But that's going to all result in say five to $10 million a year in revenue. Which is insane, but I think for the mental exercise, what I want to do is brainstorm okay, if he had to get to a billion dollars in equity, create that value, how would he do it?
Rachel: Okay also can we define a billion? Let's define a billion dollars in equity so people know what we're talking about. How much in revenue do you have annually if you have a billion dollars in equity?
Nathan: Yeah, it's going to vary a lot based on industry. So in a software business, let's say 100 million a year in revenue. If we're doing something that has agency multiples, maybe it's going to need to be 200 million a year. But growth rate, all these other things are factor. I don't care that much about like the exact numbers.
So we can even say how does someone create $10 million or $100 million and inequity? The question is really about how do you take what they're doing now and the audience, like James has an email list of like two and a half million people. He's got all this. Okay, what's the best way? How can we create the maximum outcome for that? So I've got a few ideas, and then we'll jump in and do it for another creator as well.
Rachel: Awesome. Yes. What's your first idea for him to 10x, 100x his return?
Nathan: I think the obvious one for me is to make an app. If you think about something like Calm or Headspace, and do that for habits. Because something that James has done is picked a topic that's very mass market. That's how the book sells so much. If you and I write a niche business advice book, it's not going to sell 15 million copies.
Rachel: Right because it doesn't apply to that many people.
Nathan: Yeah. Think about following Pat Flynn, and when he got to maybe 100,000 followers on some platform. I was like that's crazy. He's the biggest in the space, all that. Then you'd step outside of space and go to like a recipe blog, They'd be at 500,000 or a million. You're like oh right. More people care about what to make for dinner on Friday night than care about how to grow their business.
Rachel: Yes.
Nathan: Turns out that maybe the average revenue per user is a bit different, but Calm as a company, they've gotten to $350 million a year in revenue. They're definitely over a billion dollar valuation. They have a pretty low average revenue per user, or ARPU. So maybe it's $100 a year that you're making off every customer, but you can do that for a giant audience.
You can do these mass market. You can get a lot of different people. The marketing is targeted mainstream. Everyone's trying to improve their habits. That's why the book is popular. So I think that'd probably be my first choice. The only downsides with that one is that it's fairly expensive to start an app. That's a different problem to build up and solve than writing a book. So it’d definitely require a team.
It's not like something you can say hey, I'm going to do this little test and see if that works. Then we'll go from there. You would have to actually say this is an entire company that we're starting, and we're using the audience to kickstart it.
Rachel: Yes, yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I think the app is a brilliant play and makes a ton of sense. It will be an enormous amount of work upfront and then huge wins on the back end like once it hits that certain point where you've got a team and you've got a lot of customers enjoying it. Then also making it stick because it's one thing to start something. How do you make them stick? I mean he wrote a book on habits. So I think he can probably figure out how to how to make the app a habit, right, for his customers. So yeah, there's something there.
I feel like I'm more like thinking on almost like more of an educational route or community route. Because that's where my brain goes. So I think of is there something there where there's a curriculum that's in schools around the world? Where like school kids are studying this, and he has certified trainers to teach them the Atomic Habits way and apply it right like in their daily lives in schools, for example. This could also work in corporations. So there's something there.
I could also see like a habits conference and maybe chapters where it’s like okay, what are we keeping? So like this year, I'm going to commit to not smoking anymore. Or this year, I'm going to commit to walking every day or whatever the habit is. They basically have a community like chapters where they get to meet up, and they like work on their habits for the year, and they kick that habit. Then the following year, they work on a new habit. What's a new habit you want to adopt, or something else that you want to kick?
Because it's that's the thing about habits, it’s very renewable. Once you solve one habit problem, you have another. They're so core to life that I think that that could be potentially interesting. Like going a more community based route, which seems more aligned with his vibe. I don't know if he's the type that wants to work that hard to build a tech startup. But, of course, he can always partner with somebody. He could always partner with somebody on that.
But that's another option maybe is to do something like that. Where there's chapters, and you pay to be a part of the chapter, and you get placed into a small group where you work together on your habits. Then maybe there's like an annual conference that ties everybody together. I feel like there could be enough chapters around the world.
Nathan: I wonder about not getting too much revenue though.
Rachel: Well, if you have a lot of chapters around the world and everybody's paying dues. Let's say everybody's paying that same $100 dues, but maybe they're paying it monthly, you know what I mean, instead of annual because they're getting more value from the interaction rather than just the app.
Honestly, in this model, you could do all of the above. You could have the app as sort of like the baseline brings the community together. Then the people who want more, there could be coaching that happens and certified coaches who deliver it. There could be a whole big model educational model on the back end of that. So I think those are two interesting things. What other applications are there for that?
Nathan: I think another one would be if we focus on a specific habit. Because some habits are maybe more expensive or more profitable than others with varying levels of desire. I don't think you'll ever make that much money like getting me to actually have a flossing habit, but you might with weight loss. That's a much bigger category.
There's a company called MyBodyTutor that basically has, I don't even know if they're dieticians. I don't know what the model is. But it's basically a coach and accountability help around what you eat and weight loss. So you work out a plan with them. Then they're just like getting on a call with you or texting with you as you say hey, here's what I'm going to eat this week. Just really helping you be intentional about your life and your food habits and all that. They'll provide that accountability with you later.
I think this business is mid-single digit millions a year in revenue. It works really well, at least from people I know who are customers. They say that they're getting the results from having that outside accountability. I think you can charge more. So instead of like $100 a year kind of with the app price point, you could be at like $100 to maybe $250 a month. So you're more than 10 or 20x ARPU, yeah. What do you think of that one?
Rachel: I like it. I've seen coaching. So it's an app with coaching, right? MyBodyTutor? I feel like I've seen it before.
Nathan: It's targeted to a very specific habit.
Rachel: Yes. I think that's interesting. Noom is one of those apps that's like a weight loss app that has coaching with it. I feel like the coaching apps.
Nathan: They're a couple $100 million a year in revenue.
Rachel: For Noom?
Nathan: Noom is huge, but they're also doing layoffs right now, and I think declining a little bit. So it's hard to find a balance.
Rachel: Yeah. But yeah, I feel like it's kind of like exact. It's so interesting because it's exactly what we started off talking about when we were talking about Alex Hormozi. It's like if they have the information, but no accountability and support built into take action, are they actually going to do it? Right. If people are getting results, that's what creates the network effects.
Because if you have people who have gotten a lot of success, they're going to tell their friends oh, this is the way to do it. Like it works hands down. Even they will walking around as a walking billboard. If they've lost weight, if they've stopped smoking, if they stopped doing something, it's the kind of thing that people are going to notice. They're going to say how are you able to maintain this? It creates a whole bunch of people getting referred from that one success story that's walking around.
So yeah, I like the idea of app plus support. I think that that's super smart. That almost kind of combines our two ideas. It's like app but with community, with some support. So yeah, I like that one. I think that's brilliant.
Nathan: Yep. Okay, I have a ridiculous one and then a serious one. A ridiculous one because he would never do this. There's some in here that he would never do, but this one he would truly never do. I think that James needs a tequila. Obviously. Like The Rock is doing it, everyone else. He should have a tequila. The tagline can be level up your drinking habit. No?
Rachel: That’s funny.
Nathan: But it would do so well. Maybe not.
Rachel: With the trends right now with everyone going sober, I feel like that’s.
Nathan: The timing is bad.
Rachel: The timing is not great. However, if he came up with an alternative because that's what I was, my wheels were turning around physical products. Like what could he create? But if he came out with products that helped you. Because part of what he's teaching is replace that habit with something else that sort of closes that gap for you.
So it's like if you always like to have wine with dinner but now you can have this other non-alcoholic beverage that gives you the same. Katy Perry, I think, is working on a beverage that gives you some kind of high, but there's nothing bad in it. There's no alcohol in it. There's some other like botanicals or something that gives you a little bit of a buzz, like that feeling of being tipsy. That's what it's supposed to do. I have no idea. I have not tried it.
But I could see him maybe creating something like that, collaborating with a company, getting equity in a company that does that kind of thing. Then sending his following there. Saying if alcohol is what you're trying to kick, this is a good alternative. So like other things like that. That could make sense if you had like a non-alcoholic beverage that he invested in or that he collaborated with. I also think like something that helps with smoking cessation because that's a habit that people always want to kick. So you know.
Nathan: The thing that I like about the beverage is it meets that, of our rules of a billion dollar creator is that you have to have that repeat purchase. A beverage absolutely has the repeat purchase.
Rachel: Yes. That’s true.
Nathan: But I love what you were saying about the non-alcoholic route because Athletic Brewing is a non-alcoholic beer, and they have just exploded. Like a massive, massive business. A bunch of people on our team are big fans of them. So whenever we have a team retreat, we're making sure that like the bar or whatever venue we're at has that stocked.
So like that could work really well. Because it it's both something that has repeat purchase, and its replacement is a good tie in. You know, how James talks about replacing your habit with one's better for you. I like the idea of tying in his name. Like Clear, it's just such. James Clear is one of those names that I'm like that’s fake, right? You made that up. You're one of the people that had a different name. Then you're like this is the name that I need to go famous.
So he has his journal they came out with. It's called the Clear Habit Journal. I'm like okay that's just too good. So I think you could tie Clear into something that's like clear of alcohol or you can get it in there somewhere.
Rachel: Yes. Yes. Clear of alcohol.
Nathan: All right. My serious idea that I don't like as much as your non-alcoholic beverage idea. If we think about like different levels of revenue per user, an app is the lowest. The MyBodyTutor competitor would be medium ARPU. Then the highest, I think, would be like a performance lab. You have all these people who have too much money and are obsessed with health and longevity. I'm not talking about you, Rachel. I'm not naming names. No, I'm just kidding.
People want to know like get their bloodwork done, understand okay how exactly should I be living and all of that. I think a lot of people would happily drop $10,000 to $50,000 a year if it was like all-inclusive and optimized everything in their life. You hear that with Andrew Huberman and Dr. Rhonda Patrick, and Peter Attia and these others who are talking about health and longevity.
People hear all these things, and then they're dropping five grand on their cold plunge and 10 grand on their sauna and all that. So yeah, you could do a performance lab that have the longevity, health, nutrition, fitness, all of that kind of tied together, and the community aspect. That would be a high ARPU offering.
Rachel: Yes, I think the performance lab would be very interesting because a lot of times with longevity, they're always saying you need to ask your doctor for these particular tests to see what they see. That's part of it. It's you ask your doctor for the test, and they're like no, you don't need that. They're just going to say no a lot of the times. So what they're telling you to do is not that accessible.
So if you could make that kind of thing, getting your bloodwork done and certain things tested a certain way so that you can kind of predict where things could go wrong and then course correct, right, and making that accessible. That would be, I think, very valuable.
Accessible within reason, right? Because it's not the type of thing you probably can get done for really cheap. But if you sell it at scale, which he could potentially do with the audience that he has, that could be an interesting play. I do think for him it might be too far over to health. I almost feel like he's kind of like, I could see him doing something like you want to create a writing habit. That would be more aligned.
Nathan: In line. Because he's not an MD. He doesn't. Andrew Huberman does all this stuff. It’s like well, he's at Stanford with neuroscience, and so that makes more sense on that side of things. Okay, a couple other rapid fire ones. I was texting with friends being like all right, what would you suggest? I got some semi-serious ones. The Clear phone. So a stripped down version of Android or iOS that removes all the bad habits. This is just you can call your kids and you can send photos.
Rachel: I actually love that. Yes. I don’t know if that's a silly one. I actually think that that's brilliant. Like the version of it where you can get just the base.
Nathan: Oh, it would also be black and white. Because you're talking about if you turn your phone black and white, it's less enjoyable to us. So you pick it up less often. Well, this is black and white by default. Oh, okay. My friend Xavier who sent me this. He says also that it batches text messages twice a day. So we won't even like get interrupted all the time. Yeah, maybe that is a good idea.
Rachel: I kind of like it. It does. It does have to have some kind of emergency setting though. You gotta be able to put some people can break through. Because otherwise then you lose all the people with kids immediately, you know?
Nathan: Okay, Sahil he texted me. Atomic Energy. It's an energy water. You know it's clear. Now, I don't know if that even works. We're just trying to get like atomic and clear and all of that into all the names.
Rachel: With minerals and electrolytes, yeah, yeah. I could see that.
Nathan: No another one that's interesting. I think we tend to think in terms of like apps and you like companies more in our wheelhouse. But someone else suggested doing a water brand. Think about Liquid Death. They've grown just this insane water brand. I think they're well over a billion dollar valuation and hundreds of millions a year in revenue. That's been three or four years. Then there's some of these other, I think there's other celebrity water brands that have taken off. So that's possible.
Rachel: So Liquid Death is just water?
Nathan: It's just a sparkling water. That's it.
Rachel: Oh. I thought it was something else.
Nathan: Like maybe liquid death of some kind. Yeah. With that name, oh it's so funny. So we'll talk about it more on the show later at another point, but we have the ghost town in California. They are an unofficial sponsor of the ghost town, and they just send up cases of Liquid Death sparkling water because they just want Brent in the videos on the Ghost Town Living YouTube channel to like maybe be drinking a can of Liquid Death as he explores this goes down. They just like that tie in. It’s pretty funny.
Rachel: I love it. But you know what I like about that though? I think it points out that sometimes we overthink it. Everything doesn't have to be the most revolutionary thing. It could just be something cool. It could just be a cool brand, or just a different angle to do something that's currently done, but you're doing it in a new way. I think sometimes we're like we have to solve the world's most complex problem. Sometimes it's like or we could just create a water brand.
Nathan: I mean I think some of those the big creator businesses that you see. If you think about like Prime as the energy drink, or Feastables from Mr. Beast, there's nothing special there. It's just look, we have this attention. What will our demographic of audience purchase? There we go. Let's tee it up for them, and let them buy it. So it's straightforward.
I think the other thing that's interesting is to look, whenever we're doing a breakdown on a creator is to look at acquisitions. What could they acquire? Because if you think about Ryan Reynolds, who's one of my favorite examples of this model of getting equity in something. His two big wins, Aviation Gin and Mint Mobile are both acquisitions. In neither case, or in both cases, he didn't buy the whole thing. He bought a portion of it. Then he said okay, how can I use my name and face and advertising acumen and production company and all of that to blow this up?
Rachel: Yes.
Nathan: So if you think about a lot of these creators, they've got cash. They've got access to a lot of people who think they're cool, a lot of rich people who think they're cool. So that could be good partnerships. Then you can go on and buy other things, right? So if you get cash, relationships, and audience then you're going to be in a really good position.
Most creators at any scale, even if you have 10,000 people on your list and you're talking in a very specific niche, you probably have, at some scale, cash relationships and audience that would allow you to do a deal or an acquisition might make sense for you that wouldn't make sense for other people. So I have no idea what James could or should buy, but I like to think about it.
Rachel: Well, that's kind of where I went with just I don't know him that well. I've met him, but I don't know him personally. But just the sense that I get from him, I feel like it would make more sense for him to do an acquisition or to just partner, right? To say what brands make sense for my audience? What brand or what product could align well with my audience, and let me partner with them. Not in a sponsorship way, but in a taking equity and doing that whole billion dollar creator model, but not having to do the heavy lift, right?
My heavy lift was I'm bringing this community to you, to this product. So your heavy lift is you’ve got to create the product. So that's the potential partnership, which is great. So I think that makes a lot of sense. I think when you have an audience of that size, it's great. Also too it's cool to think about okay, what can I provide for them that would help further their journey when it comes to million dollar habits and make it easier for them to accomplish their goals? I think that's pretty cool.
Nathan: Yep, I like it. Do you want to dive into one other creator before we wrap up?
Rachel: Yes. So the other creator that I think we could reimagine or imagine like how they can grow into a billion dollar valuation is Luvvie Ajayi Jones. She is a four time New York Times bestseller. Her first book was I'm Judging You, then Professional Troublemaker. Then she's got the Troublemaker book for Youth. Then she also has Little Troublemaker for kids. My son and I read that one. She's very funny, so entertaining. So her books have all been very successful. She's a highly sought after speaker. I'm sure she's getting $100,000 a gig as well. What else can I say?
Nathan: Four books. Four New York Times bestsellers, each in a different category.
Rachel: Yes.
Nathan: That blew me away. That's hard to do, right? Some people are oh, I do self-help. I'm in this niche. I can just keep doing it over and over again. She's like no, I think I'm just going to switch categories with every book. Oh, and make the bestseller list each time. No big deal.
Rachel: Yes.
Nathan: So that's great. She helped me as a customer, which made me love her even more. So.
Rachel: Yes, exactly. She's had a viral TED Talk. She spoke at TEDWomen. She has a very big following on social media, a very big following, loyal following. She's great at like, she does brand deals, like brand alignments where it makes sense where she'll partner with them. I feel like I see less like promotional posts on her social media. It's more like her appearing in ads or just aligning with the brand for a campaign or something like that.
So, that seems like what is the makeup of her business at this time. So what are some opportunities where she could monetize and scale with the huge, amazing audience that she has? I also, I think she has brilliant advice to give. I also think she is incredibly entertaining. Oh, she has a podcast, a very popular podcast. She had a podcast that was so popular that she had to tell people to leave her alone because they would be when is the next episode? She was like leave me alone. I'm busy. It's not happening right now.
Nathan: This idea at different audience sizes, she obviously doesn't have an audience quite as big as James's, but what are the things that stand out to you that would give her like equity in this growing business? Maybe it's not even at the billion dollar level, but the same concepts behind it. What business would you have her kickstart with her audience and what's a natural fit?
Rachel: There's a couple of things. I think for sure obviously, she can speak on, she could even have like almost like a personal brand academy because she's she kills it in every category. So when it comes to social media, she is brilliant at that and big following there. Very engaged audience, right. It's one thing to have numbers, but are those numbers engaged? She has a highly engaged audience.
She obviously knows the formula. She has a methodology for writing a New York Times bestseller in all these different categories. Highly sought after speaker, very popular podcast, right. So if someone wanted to say like, I feel like there's a huge amount of people in the world today who want to build their own audience. They want to know how to become a popular podcaster, speaker, writer, building a brand on social media.
So she could combine those four things like that's her superpower, and turn that into some kind of I don't know personal brand academy where she can teach people these different elements and how to do it.
What would be even more interesting is if it was almost like a personal brand certification where she had this methodology that she taught people, and then they could go out and help their clients with it. Because I think it's something that is really, it feels really hard for people building an audience, right, and maintaining an audience and being able to exist in these categories and have people know your name and actually show up to your stuff.
So I think there's something there with maybe it's a course business, maybe it's a certification, but there's so much genius there that she could definitely create some kind of education model business that could be huge. Now, could it be $100 million? I don't know, maybe. What are your thoughts?
Nathan: I think, especially if you layered on an agency or services model to it. So you said, here's the training. Then also here's where we'll do it for you. There's a bunch of people I know who have started agencies. I started one with Sahil Bloom around newsletter growth. We’re saying hey, here's all the tactics and techniques. We teach you all the stuff. We love it. We nerd out on it. But if you just want to pay someone to do it for you, there you go right. For five grand a month, you can do that.
So I think there's a lot of people who are huge fans of Luvvie’s work and say hey, I want to do that. Can I just hire your agency to do it for me? So it can work in the publishing space if you look at Scribe and some of these other publishing platforms where they're like hey, we'll publish your book for you. It's like great, we'll build your audience for you. All that.
Luvvie’s going to have an entirely different demographic and category of people that she's bringing in compared to like a very generic or corporate company trying to do the same thing. Then she also has the platform to be able to amplify them. So I think there's a lot of amazing professionals that would say yep, sign me up. Do that. Then that's a fantastic cash flowing business, and you can go through it and go from there.
Also, Sahil Bloom does this thing. I talked about it in an episode of my podcast where he looked through everything that he was spending money on as a creator. Whether it was newsletter growth, or video editing, or clips, or all of this stuff. Then he said, “Great, I'm going to follow the Amazon model and turn my cost centers into profit centers.”
So I'm going to, in Amazon's case, they're like we're spending a ton of money on web hosting, like servers. Just endless money on that. What if we offered that as a product, and we made money off of it, and that became Amazon Web Services, which is their biggest source of profit now many years later.
So Sahil said here's everything we're spending money on. Let me invest in, start, or acquire companies for each one of those. Now he's got 10 different companies that he can promote to his audience, and they're doing ridiculously well. We'll do a full breakdown on that in another episode. But it's fascinating.
I think Luvvie could do something like that as well if she wanted and say okay. Now, we’ll even help you build this brand. Oh, you want to come out with a book? We’ll be the publisher for it, and go from there because she could guarantee a lot of success.
Rachel: Yes, for sure. Honestly, it also solves the other problem of amplifying she has a huge women and people of color, especially, in her audience that she could amplify their voices, create opportunities for them to get published or to get on a podcasting network.
I like the publishing angle. I think I could see her having a really dope, like a publishing house. That could be something that she could build. I feel like that industry is ripe for disruption. It's being disrupted in these small ways. But it would be interesting to create a publishing house that gives out book deals, that has the distribution, but is more modern in terms of she obviously knows how to market a book, how to sell the hell out of a book. She has the connections and key relationships where she can link you up with a celebrity for your book deal or for your book tour.
So I think that would be interesting too. She could have like a book launching company where she just does the book launch for you. Like she has a team of people who do the Luvvie way, but she could also. And/or she could have a publishing imprint.
I think publishing is also a business where you have some books where you just break even. Hopefully, you don't have too many books where you lose money, but you have books where you lose money, and then you have those winners. It's almost like an investment fund. It's we're going to make a lot of bets, and there's going to be some that are runaways, more will be runaways because I'm applying my methodology because I've done it four times in four different categories. Then the runaways like basically make the business.
So yeah, publishing could be interesting too. Another angle that I think would be brilliant for her is clothing. She loves clothes. She always posts. She has like a Luvvie’s shoes. She has an Instagram just for her shoes. She's like big on her blazers. She loves to wear like wingtip, like Oxford type shoes. So she's always showing her fits on social media.
So I think that could be interesting for her to create her own clothing line of like she has like a certain type of hat she often is wearing. I could see her like having her own sneaker, like just having her own blazer that's this is the blazer for speaking gigs and important meetings. You know what I mean? So I think that would be interesting.
Nathan: What I love about the clothing line is it plays into her strengths already and what she cares about it. Her audience already knows her for that. It plays into identity, like what you're saying about the blazer for the important meetings. Like that’s an identity thing. Like oh, I'm putting on my Luvvie blazer I've got to go kick some ass and get this contract, whatever thing, big thing that I need to get done. Shoes work in the same way.
Then it also follows the rule of being visible or shareable. We were talking about that with drinks. If you have Casamigos Tequila, that's something that you're sharing with friends. So it spreads in that way. The blazer, someone's like hey, I love that look. You're like oh, yeah. It's from Luvvie. That’s where it spreads and seems natural to talk about.
Rachel: Yeah, I feel like she could have a clothing line. Her name is Luvvie. So she has that benefit too just like James Clear where she has a very memorable name, a powerful name that you can totally make it a brand in and of itself. Just her first name, Luvvie.
But also, her second book is Professional Troublemaker, and I could see her with a clothing line for professional troublemakers, you know what I mean? So it's kind of your professional, and you're here to disrupt. You're here to take things to the next level, call out what you see.
So I can see that sort of being the ethos behind a brand of professional clothing for women, for example. That it's professional. It's a suit, but it's bold in some way. It's cut different, or it's in different colors or patterns, right. So it's traditional, but not, right? So I kind of love that. I think that would be dope. I would totally buy Luvvie blazers or Professional Troublemaker blazers.
Nathan: I love that. Okay, to kind of wrap it up with one last idea. Yeah. Any of these things that she's marketing or promoting, I think would do really well with a Netflix show.
Rachel: Yes.
Nathan: With a show. First of all, I did not realize the reach. You know that Netflix is big, but Ramit is like hey, I'm doing a personal finance focused Netflix show. In it, he talks about his book, and he talks about his journal a little bit. As he's working with a couple, he’ll be like here work through these sections of the journal.
First of all, his book went to number one on all of Amazon when the show. The book was published a decade ago. They had another like 10 year edition that came out a couple of years ago, but it's not like it was a brand new release. The journal went to number four on all of Amazon. This is a journal. It's beating out, at least to that moment in time, all these other things. So the reach is incredible.
Rachel: I saw actually it was sold out for a while. Like basically they ran through all their supply.
Nathan: Right. You would think that they bought a lot of supply. Yeah, we have Netflix show coming out. We should probably stock up. So I think that Luvvie is someone who with all of her media experience, with how vibrant her personality is and everything else, she could do really well with a show. Then it would tie in really nicely with her other speaking, her books, her clothing line, which she has to start a clothing line now. There's no question about it.
Rachel: I mean this is a must. Okay.
Nathan: So, anyway. Then I think kind of the last thing, the other person I think about is someone like Arlan Hamilton who is an investor and bringing capital to so many people who don't have it. As Luvvie talks about, like Professional Troublemaker would just be such a great, like investing capital business. Professional Troublemaker Holding. I don't know what it's called.
She’s like hey, if you're a professional troublemaker and you have an amazing up and coming business, like I would love to be your first check. That could be something of bond building equity, especially in people and communities that don't have access to abundant.
Rachel: Yeah. I love that idea of an investment fund. I think that's brilliant, especially with when you think about she's investing in companies with all of the personal brand experience she can bring to it. I also, I love the Netflix show, but I almost want to take it further and say a production company. Like I could see, I definitely see her as in an entertainment space for sure.
So like having a production company where she's producing the shows that we want to see like in different categories. It could be something to make you feel good, like docuseries kind of shows. I could see her doing a sitcom, like having a family and a sitcom type show. I think she could, same thing with the publishing right. Like vetting ideas, and then adding her flavor to it and creating like these really entertaining shows and movies that are missing from the marketplace right now. I think that could be dope too.
Nathan: I love it. Okay, let's leave the episode there. Because we could talk forever.
Rachel: Yes, we sure could.
Nathan: Turns out we like these topics. For anyone listening, if you enjoy Billion Dollar Breakdowns, tell us. Go write a review. If you go to BillionDollarCreator.com, we'll have the links to everywhere that you can subscribe, write a review, all of that. But on YouTube specifically, jump in there and write a comment. Say okay here's my idea for Luvvie, here's my idea for James.
Rachel: Yes.
Nathan: Or tell us here's another creator that we would love for you to do a breakdown on. Because we'll nerd out and have fun on that anytime.
Rachel: Yeah, it'll be great. Listen, we're going to turn everybody into billionaires. I'm enjoying this. They just have to do the work.
Nathan: We shouldn’t, but if any two people could pull it off, I think it's us.
Rachel: I agree completely.
Nathan: All right Rachel. Good to hang out. The next episode that we're going to drop is the actual first intro that we first recorded before we were figuring out some of the concepts. So if you're tuning in and you're like who are these people? We're going to cover that in episode three. Yeah.
Rachel: Stay tuned.
Nathan: Have a good rest of your conference and event, and we'll chat soon.
Rachel: Thank you. All right, bye.
Rachel: Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Billion Dollar Creator. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe, share it with your friends and leave us a review. We read every single one. If there is a company you want us to profile on Billion Dollar Creator, send us a message on social media and we will consider it. Thank you and we will see you next time.