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Welcome to The Pilot Project Podcast, your premier source for stories and insights from pilots in the RCAF and mission aviation - brought to you by Skies Magazine! Whether you're an aspiring aviator, navigating flight training, or simply fascinated by the world of military and mission aviation, this podcast is your guide. We sit down with pilots and aviation professionals to hear their thrilling experiences, lessons learned, and expert advice on resilience, training, and the skills needed to succeed in this exciting field. Strap in - we’re ready for departure!
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Bryan:Alright. We're ready for departure here at the Pilot Project Podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and Mission Aviation Pilots brought to you by Sky's Magazine. I'm your host, Brian Morrison, and here with me today for the conclusion of our discussion on the evolution of tactical aviation and special operations aviation in Canada is colonel Todd O'Malley, the current director air and space at Canadian Special Operations Forces Command or CANSOFCOM. Todd, thank you again for being here. This has been great, and I'm really looking forward to this one today.
Todd:Thanks, Brian. It's great to be back.
Bryan:Listeners can check out part one to hear about Todd's time in flight training and getting selected helos as well as ending up at four two seven squadron. Part two features his early deployments, and part three talks about how four two seven really began to get into the special operations world. Today, we are going to talk about his time in the instructing world in Moose Jaw, which is where I first ran into Todd, as well as returning to four two seven and the evolution of special operations aviation in Canada. You had been working with JTF two and developing a bunch of soft aviation tactics. After you did a staff tour in Ottawa, you were selected to become Apache flight commander at two CFFTS or two Canadian Forces Flying Training School during the launch of NFTC, which is NATO flying training in Canada, which is the era of Moose Jaw that I was a student there.
Bryan:How significant was that opportunity for you?
Todd:It was it was extremely significant for maybe a couple reasons. One, I, you know, I wanted to give back. I kinda I wanted to go back to Moose Jaw, and and I know how stressful it was as a student, and I wanted to see if I could help, let's say the next generation coming through, maybe to give them different perspective, maybe some of the examples of what I had done up until that point, but maybe make their time in Moose Jaw, not as stressful, depending on what they got chosen for selected for. But I really I pushed for this opportunity to go and, you know, in that staff tour, maybe it was just meant that I go, but it came a long way around. I heard about it.
Todd:I had been on a staff tour for less than a year and I was told there's no way you're going. And I actually had a posting message ripped up in front of me that had me posted there And that did not sit well, but you know, former CDS Walt Natinshuk was a colonel at the time that I worked for. Uncle Walt. Yep, and brilliant, you know, I've been very lucky at the right times. I've had incredible people looking after me.
Todd:And I remember him giving me that posting message. And he said to me, go look after your folks. And I man, I couldn't get out to Moose Jaw fast enough to to kinda get on with what this experience would be being a Hilo guy going on a back to fixed wing world, just let alone instructing in Moose Jaw.
Bryan:Yeah. What what was it like to transition from you'd made the transition in the past from fixed wing to helicopters. Now you're going the other way. And as we had said in episode one that Moose Jaw had a very fighter culture. So what was it like stepping into that as kind of an outsider?
Todd:Yeah. It's I I knew some folks there, which was good. Yeah. But now you're coming in and there's a couple things working against you. One, you're a helo guy.
Todd:Two, you're coming in as one of the flight commanders. So you're supposed to kind of know Moose Jaw, the rules, the game, because it's got a lot of rules in it, Being a school and you're supposed to really be pretty proficient at fixed wing. So I definitely knew I had a long road and I remember when I showed up, they were gonna kind of slow roll me initially, like we'll put them on course down the road and Marcel Major at the time was the commandant and he made a conscious decision To put me right in as flight commander and do the course to learn how to fly the fixed wing at the same time, and he said to me, like, don't fail me. Like a lot of people don't believe you can do this. And Craig Bessler, call sign squeaky was my he was my deputy flight commander and he was a tackle guy.
Todd:And I said to him, Squeak, your job is to keep me out of jail as we as I learn the role, and I will concentrate on learning how to fly and instruct this bird. And, and we did just that. You know, going that course is hard because your brain works at a 100 knots in a helicopter and you're working at maybe two twenty, two forty knots in a Harvard trying to learn the procedures and the radio work and instrument flying and nav formation, aerobatics, everything, and to become an instructor. And what probably helped me is just as I was supposed to get checked out fixed wing, the Harvard broke. So I actually probably have one of the very few last folks to do a transition from Hilo to PIX wing on a tutor.
Bryan:Okay.
Todd:And I actually did my whole PIX wing conversion on the tutor again, which was kind of like finishing my course initially on the tutor. It was was taking it to the final end and then the Harvard came online and then I did a conversion onto the Harvard and then instructed, you know, that did the instructor course on the Harvard. So I was really fortunate to guy kinda go and play one last time on the tutor.
Bryan:That's a really neat experience to kinda be one of the last cadres that got to sunset the tutor in its training role.
Todd:Yeah. I was very I was very lucky because we borrowed, I'll call it hours from certain staff positions that had tutor hours allocated to them, and they gave up some of their hours for me to go do my course. So while birds were grounded, I was one of the only guys in Moose Jaw flying, because I had a tutor kind of to my availability and off we went, but it was very cool to do that knowing you're probably one of the very last folks to fly the tutor in your fixed wing conversion.
Bryan:Yeah, and I imagine getting onto the Harvard, after that was a fairly simple conversion.
Todd:The piece I think on the Harvard, you know, the cockpit's up, obviously a lot more update, but I think the instructing side was very much a challenge because instead of being side by side where you can see what the student's doing, being front and back, you had to almost visualize what you thought the student was about to do. And that that is a very challenging piece of, of learning how to instruct.
Bryan:Yeah. No kidding. Did you do your FIC course, the flight instructor course, on the tutor and then convert, or did you do FIC on the Harvard?
Todd:FIC on the Harvard. I did FIC on the Harvard.
Bryan:Okay. So at least you learned to instruct on it.
Todd:Yeah. Because I I think you have to have enough comfort in your flying ability to have enough bandwidth to be in the cockpit of the student where you're trying to visualize what they're about to do or not do to be able to cue them that they might want to look at that or and I thought wow this is a very challenging job. Just the instructing side I think was a very challenging piece let alone running the flight. Mhmm. Right?
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. I, I did not finish FIC here in Portage because as I've talked about on the show before, I was diagnosed with PTSD. Well, OST, SRD, other specified trauma and stress related disorder
Todd:Okay.
Bryan:During FIC. And that just ended up being the end of my flying time. But I did get to the phase where you start teaching, for like, the instructor plays a student. And Yep. I would say, by far, it is the most challenging thing I ever did in an airplane.
Bryan:Like, way more way more difficult than form flying or low level navigation, harder than hunting a sub at 300 feet over the ocean. It's just a whole different challenge.
Todd:Yeah. I I I couldn't agree more. I, I think we sometimes it's a sausage factory a bit, right? The school kind of never stops churning, but I think, I don't think we give enough credit to folks that go there, do well, continue to grow as instructors and really shape the next generation. Like there's, that's a very difficult job to do day in and day out and stay motivated and find tricks and never stop kind of learning yourself of how, because you'll always find a student who has used all of your tricks and you still can't maybe get that spark to light up, like there's just a piece missing, and you've gotta be the type of personality that goes and finds another tool from somebody else and you try it and the light comes on and man, that is a great feeling when you see the students start to progress.
Bryan:Yeah. And you've talked about instructing on the Harvard two being one of the most rewarding times of your career even compared to some of the operational flying you had done, earlier. Was it seeing the students succeed? Like, what was the best part of that job?
Todd:Yeah. It it really is. I I it was There was two aspects, whether I was commandant or flight commander, there was two aspects I really enjoyed is, if students and staff who worked extremely hard got the posting that they wanted, and just to watch that happiness occur was, you know, it brought that energy to the flight. But seeing a student struggle, let's say in NAV, they just cannot get the procedures of NAV down and all of a sudden on one flight, the whole thing clicks and now they just become a brilliant nav student. Like you can see them just flourish.
Todd:That's the best feeling as an instructor. Like you, you just, you want to help them succeed, you wanna help every student, I'll say this, every student that shows up prepared and ready to go, I was 100% in the Corp to help them, like 100%. If you showed up not prepared, then I probably gave you the same amount of energy in an opposite direction.
Bryan:Yeah. Honestly, it kind of shocks me that there are people who manage to get that far and then don't put everything they have into it. Like, I get sometimes people have personal things going on. And in that case, you're supposed to talk to your staff about it, but a lot of people don't because they're afraid of getting kicked off or recoursed or something. They don't realize how much the instructors care and will try to take care of them and accommodate or sometimes being recoursed is what needs to happen.
Bryan:Yep. But it never ceases to amaze me that there are people who will show up unprepared for these flights. And it's like, how did you even get here? And and now that you're here, are you seriously taking this for granted? Like, it's a it's a weird level of almost entitlement.
Todd:Yeah. And you're absolutely right. And I probably saw it well, I definitely saw it as a flight commander, but I saw it even as the commandant when I would go to fly with a student, and they wouldn't have prepared at all. And I'm like, look, man, this weekend, I actually went over my red pages, which I did every weekend because I didn't fly as often. Right?
Todd:And as a flight commander, I still didn't. And I would do all my studying on weekends and nights to make sure I'm ready. And when somebody shows up not prepared, I'm like, okay, you're gonna get that other side of me. You know, same level of energy coming, but probably not what you wish for.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, Red Pages when I was in Moose Jaw, I I ran through them. Well, at first, you're doing them a ton.
Bryan:Yeah. But I I kept doing them every day.
Todd:Yep.
Bryan:Just a quick run through once I had them down pat. And, when I was flying the Aurora, I would still regularly run through red pages. Like, it's just that's just flying. You have that's being a professional.
Todd:It is. Because the one day you don't is when you're gonna need them. Yep. Right?
Bryan:Was there a part of you at all that, you know, you felt like you were taken away from Moose Jaw early as a student? Did coming back feel like you were getting to get that fixed wing experience that you'd missed out on?
Todd:Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure, Brian. Like, I I wanted to go back to get that closure almost that I could do it.
Todd:Like I just needed to kind of close the chapter that I could be successful fixed wing if I had been given the chance. And I knew Moose Show was where you could just set that right, whether that, and if you could get through the fit course, then you, that chapter closed and I knew regardless of what I went to do after that, that chapter kinda was, I'd set it right for myself, and I, you know, I felt that, you know, I look back at Jerry Kennedy as my Apache flight commander, and you know, he took nothing from anybody, but he was a brilliant guy to have as your flight commander. Like he would look after you, just show up prepared, do your job. And I kinda wanted to be able to be in that same role, so when I was offered Apaches, I thought, man, I'm on the backs of a lot of people, like the shoulders of a lot of great greatness was just Apache had a name to it, it had an aura about it, and I really wanted to be in that flight and help instructors and the students like love their experience in Moose Jaw, regardless of how stressful it is, enjoy it.
Todd:Like there's time to laugh and have fun, let's do it. There's time to buckle down and get her done, let's do that too. But you're still flying, man. Like, you know, one of the greatest jobs in the world, like, let's go play.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. Apache I was in Apache as well and it's definitely a special place. There there's a real sense of camaraderie and
Todd:There really is.
Bryan:Kind of friendly friendly competition with the other flights, which is a lot of fun at times. And, yeah, I I had an instructor walking back in with me after a flight one day, and he said, beats working for a living. And I I loved it. Right? I totally agreed.
Todd:Yeah. Yeah. It's awesome.
Bryan:Yeah. So we're gonna jump around in the timeline a little bit. We'll come back to the time you spent next at four two seven, but first, we're gonna talk about when you returned to Moose Jaw as the commandant of two CFFTS. How surreal was it to return there in command after working so hard as a student decades earlier?
Todd:Yeah. It, I did not see the Moose Jaw piece coming, at all, to be honest. I was in staff, I was in staff college Toronto, and it was like a TGIT night, if I'm not mistaken, because TGIF, everybody went home. Yeah. You know, everybody out of Toronto.
Todd:And the same wing commander, Colonel Foster, I think it was a Bgen Foster at the time. The guy who gave me the chance to fly low level around Moose Jaw with students, he was in the mess that night and he heard me say to somebody like, hey, if I ever got a shot to go back to Moose, I'd take it in a heartbeat. And he's like, what did you just say? And I said, listen. If you're ever looking for a comment on, I'm all in.
Todd:And that got a ball rolling that nobody was stopping by. And it happened very quickly after that. And I got told, hey, you're going to Moose Jaws, the comment on. I'm like, this is outstanding. And then, yeah, in o nine, I went out on course again, know, rode the motorcycle in April from Kingston to Moose Jaw, so I'd have wheels out there while I went back to learn in Harvard again.
Todd:And that is a heck of an experience being, and I feel like people sometimes misunderstand, and I saw it happen when I was there, the comedian role in Moose it's a double hatted role really, you're the commanding officer really of 100 instructors from what, six or seven different countries at the time, and you are the commandant of the school with over 100 students from all these countries also. So you're constantly putting different hats on during your time there as commandant, we kind of called it commandant, but you really were doing two different, very different roles when you were there.
Bryan:It's almost like you're like an instructor flight commander, but also like the principal of a school.
Todd:Yes. That's exactly what it is. And depending on what the situation that you're dealing with, it really was probably in one of those two camps, not maybe sometimes in both, but that was a piece that I hadn't really chewed on until I got there and I realized, okay, like you really do, it's a very important role you're about to play in the instructors lives and a critically once in a lifetime role for the students. And you've got to be in have the energy for both.
Bryan:Did you find that as commandant, you had more or less of an opportunity to sort of affect the students experience?
Todd:I probably had less different maybe, but less than flight commander because you were really down in the flight leading at that flight level. Like, this is what I expect of people. Yeah. This is what right? But I think where I tried to look after the students the best I could as a commandant was if some of them came to a board or some of them had a situation occurring in their lives where I could work with, let's say, Winnipeg and maybe remove them off course and get them the help they needed to solve whatever that was and then put them back on course, but not break their spirit like, I don't know, they were failing somebody at the time.
Todd:Like, feel like that was the role as Commandant that I played in their lives at that level
Bryan:Mhmm.
Todd:As opposed to the down and in daily grind as a flight.
Bryan:And those are such important moments, like, kind of a mentorship opportunity almost where you have this time where a young, less experienced person is going through a challenge in life. You've got more experience. You've you've been through some hard times where you had to balance personal and work stuff and, like, also to maybe give them the perspective of like, hey, I know right now this feels like the whole world, but this is just a course, and there is way more to life. And and when you're a student in Moose Jaw, it does not feel like that's true.
Todd:Yeah. It's a really good point, Brian. Yeah. It doesn't. You're all encompassing.
Todd:Right? You're it you're living, eating, breathing it, and maybe there were family members before you that had come through, like there's a lot of pressure on the students, but I would argue when a student, maybe I had to have that conversation that maybe this isn't the path for you. I knew, normally it's after a board at some point, it would be after a board. And if I would spend better part of a week chewing on the results of that board to make sure that we had literally done our jobs correctly as the instructor cadre, and the rules had been followed and the student had been given the opportunities because I knew how important it is to somebody's life. And so I wanted to make sure when I brought somebody in, if we were gonna have that conversation that, hey, this path isn't for you, I had to have come to peace with it myself first and then figure out how I deliver that maybe differently than how I had heard that news when I was at Sioux College, know, example.
Todd:And I'm like, I've got to help them understand that this is a chapter in life, it's not your life.
Bryan:Yeah.
Todd:And when you leave here, like I remember saying to some of them, do you want to be that person on a squadron that in your heart you know you're struggling and you're gonna do that the whole career, or do you wanna find something in your life that you actually can excel at and you're destined to do and you're born to do because you're brilliant at it? Why don't we try to find that? Mhmm. Right? Like, let's go find that.
Bryan:Yeah, man. I can only imagine that it's gotta hold a lot of emotional weight on your shoulders to have to deliver that kind of news to people when they're really trying to achieve their dreams.
Todd:It does.
Bryan:And you're you're the one saying, hey, look, this this dream is not happening for you. Like, that just must be really, really tough.
Todd:It it really is. I I have to say, like, at the end of a week because, you know, sometimes it maybe they've had a rough run up, but normally, a a board will take kind of a week to kinda go through its it's workings and then it's maybe a Thursday or Friday before beer call, you're having these conversations and boy, does it put a lot of heaviness on you when you're about to deliver that because you're hypersensitive to how the person that's sitting right in front of you is reacting to every word you're saying. Yeah. But at some point the words, this isn't for you and I'm going to remove you from training have to come out of your mouth And you're trying to figure out as you're saying it, how they're going to react.
Bryan:Yeah.
Todd:And never is that a good feeling.
Bryan:Yeah. And you have to watch them react to those words.
Todd:Yeah. And and it's probably your only real time you see grown adults break down, and, some of them are like, you're you're really walking a line of build them up, a mentorship, father like visionary of what you think they'd be great, like you're really walking this area that nobody teaches you how to do it. Like nobody, there's no course before being common on, They're like, hey, this is the pre common on course. We're gonna teach you how to do this. Yeah.
Todd:You're just you're just in there and you face your first and every one of them is very different,
Bryan:you know? Is there like a typical reaction or do you see a whole wide range of reactions?
Todd:You normally see somebody trying to figure out how to maybe stay back on course.
Bryan:Okay.
Todd:But I remember having a gal come through and as I started to talk to her, she said, look, if you don't believe that I'm going to be the best at this, I don't want to continue. I want to find what I'm supposed to do that makes me the best. And I'm like, okay, now you're already coming in with a great attitude.
Bryan:Yeah.
Todd:Right. And I said, Okay, then this like based on this, this and this, this path isn't for you. Like you will not be your best self as a pilot. So let's figure out whether you're in or out of the military, let's figure out what you want to be and let me let me help you go in that direction.
Bryan:Yeah.
Todd:But most, I would say, are trying to figure out how to stay.
Bryan:Yeah, like bargaining, kind of like what if I did this? What if?
Todd:Yeah, bargaining like right. Like I was almost there and if I get one more flight and a yeah, yeah. But when you kind of look at it, you you've had it all like we gave you every hour plus I probably went Winnipeg to get more hours for you. Yeah. Right, so that's why I would spend a lot of hours going over that board report and you know their trip cards and what their flight commanders thought, just really wanting to make sure I did it right Mhmm.
Todd:Even no matter how hard it was going to be.
Bryan:Yeah. So these were obviously the hardest days of the job, generally speaking. Yep. We had talked about how as an instructor, the most rewarding part was watching it click, watching people succeed, and then that was that was like what made the job so rewarding. Did you find as commandant that the good days, the opportunities were you able to help people and help them achieve their dreams?
Bryan:Did those outweigh the hard days?
Todd:Oh, yeah. 100%. Like, I mean, just going to fly with a student that's prepared, because you had to, you know, guys or gals would be, oh my god, I'm flying with a comment on today. And so I try to come down, right? Like, and I'd come down and say, look, man, I I'm just here.
Todd:I'm just here to pass on what I know and help you get this done. That's all I am today. And and going up with with some of these students who are really good and you get to maybe pass on an odd point here that makes them a little better or you're trying to bring an energy that maybe just uplifts them because maybe they had a really tough flight before that. Because sometimes by that time, they were giving me like maybe a pretest to do, or somebody had maybe an extra duel on somebody or, and I think it starts in the briefing room. Like I would come in and go, look, you're gonna get this, like we're gonna solve this today, there's nothing we can't solve, but let's just attack this, let's go have fun, let's get to the other side of this, but let's have fun doing it and you'll learn.
Todd:There were so many days like that or seeing instructors get the posting that they wanted at the end of four years, man, there is nothing better than somebody who works extremely hard and they get that job they want. There are a lot of good days.
Bryan:Yeah. It is you know, the military has so many twists and turns with postings and there's so many times where somebody has promised something and it just, for whatever reason cannot happen, it's so nice to see that workout.
Todd:And I've had guys come up to me, and they'll say, you don't remember this, I'm sure, but, you know, fifteen years ago, you sent me c seventeens and I'm still flying them. And I'm like, man, that is awesome. Yeah. Like that, those are good days. Like, you you don't you don't realize as as the big two, commandant or flight commander, how many people's lives you're in, good or bad, you're in
Bryan:them. Mhmm.
Todd:Because they all came through there for that period you were there.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even, like, you and I have that connection. Right?
Todd:Yeah. Right.
Bryan:Like, I still remember that day talking to you. Like, it's Yep. It it's is cool. It's awesome.
Todd:Yep.
Bryan:So we're gonna jump back in time. We're gonna go back to you have just been the flight commander of Apache, and now you get posted back to 04/27 and back into the special operations aviation world. So in 2003, you returned to four two seven squadron as the deputy commanding officer. Why do you think that that posting became so important for you as a developmental opportunity?
Todd:I think it was, you know, coming out of Moose Jaw, now you're almost trying to trying to see where you will land, as a major, like where this path will take you and the DCO job at the time and the squadron was deployed and I'm trying to remember how they were doing it, I wanna say Bosnia, I might be wrong on that, but I feel they were doing these like forty five days in and then back for forty five days. There was a there was a weird deployment model going on at the time where the squadron was either on leave getting ready to go, had just come back, or were over there. So the squadron was really trying to find itself. And as DCO, you you were you were sometimes working with a an acting CO, depending on if the real CO was deployed or not.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Todd:But what it did, I think, is it gave me the opportunity to understand how a squadron runs, how the people side runs, how the money side runs, how the cyclical nature of the military runs regardless of what unit you're in. And up until then, I hadn't really been in a position to see this this kind of the gamesmanship that plays, whether you're working a business plan, whether you're working people, whether you're working discipline, and then whether you're working offs and flying at the same time. So I feel like it was a really good growing year for me to really see the squadron at a level that a CO sees it at and the the challenges that live on that plate day to day that you don't normally see as a captain, you know, running amok, just flying missions.
Bryan:Yeah. You're you're definitely lost in the trees of the forest when you're when you're a lion captain, for sure.
Todd:Yeah. And and even Moose Jaw, which was a really different place, you're really just down and in as a major trying to take care of your flight. You're not thinking budgets, you're not thinking kids just keep showing up and instructors keep showing up and you carry on.
Bryan:Yeah.
Todd:But I found that the DCO job really did let me understand the process, how it works.
Bryan:So shortly afterward, you were selected to command b flight. We talked about this a bit with Chris Bray, but for listeners unfamiliar with the structure at the time, what was b flight?
Todd:Yeah, so really at that time, way back when four fifty had the role with the RCMP and then JTF2 in the early days where you had saw flight, what really morphed out of that is they moved the response flight to Petawawa, and it became the flight, and the rest of the squadron was in a traditional tactical aviation role supporting the army.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Todd:And we were in this very unique role where we had one customer really, which was Dwyer Hill. And, you know, and we worked for the DCDS at the time, which was the sort of ops arm of of the military. And if we got sent out the door, it was the DCDS that sent us out the door in support of JTF two. And we would literally just leave. Like I would say to the CEO, listen, we're taking some birds, six birds or whatever, and we're out of here.
Todd:And, you know, sometimes that would be like, hey, we've got things that the squatter needs to go do. And I'm like, if I was you, you can call the DCS. You can talk to somebody. But I got to go
Bryan:like
Todd:I got an order. So there was definitely a friction just because the two thirds of the squadron have one role to do and we had another role to do. And that's it's not healthy for the squadron in the long term to be very honest. You know, we were hand selecting people
Bryan:Yeah.
Todd:Right, for our flight. So again, you have folks that maybe we didn't select that are now in the other flights and or we did select somebody younger or newer to the unit. I mean, it was what it was, and it got set up the way it was. But we really felt a bit isolated where we weren't really part of JTF two.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Todd:And we we weren't a complete piece of four two seven, although we were certainly, you know, a flight of four two seven. It just had a different flavor in those days.
Bryan:That organizational structure is pretty much guaranteed to create friction between competing taskings, friction between people who may be viewed as insiders or outsiders. Either you're in or out of a special operations world or you're either in or out of the main part of a squadron. Like, it doesn't lead to a cohesive unit for sure.
Todd:No. And it and I'll be honest, it, you know, it wasn't fair at all to the COs. Mhmm. Like the COs during my tenure, because I feel when I took over for whatever reasons, Dwyer Hill was not really using b flight as much as they had in the past.
Bryan:Okay. So
Todd:we almost had to have a kind of a rebirth of b flight. So when I kinda came in there, almost day one, I called a no notice recall, and I sent us on a bit of a tailspin. I kind of wanted to know where we were from a operational mentality point of view. And then I went to the CEO of Dwyer Hill at JTF two, and I said, hey, listen, like, I need you to start using us more and we're going to we're going to start to show up more and be and be world class of what we do. And we kind of sat down as a as a flight and said, listen, like, if we wanna be taken seriously, we've gotta we gotta be one of the best in the world at this.
Todd:And that's really what maybe started even the gap bigger in this in this squadron because I really was focused on we're going to be very good at this.
Bryan:Well, if you're trying to be elite and that's a different mandate from the rest of the squadron, it's almost automatic that they're gonna view you as elitist.
Todd:Yeah, and that was, it's funny you use that word because I've tried this entire time not to use that word because that was a word used so often where that was a word we tried to avoid being referred to as, and I would argue, yes, we probably were in some aspects, but trying to avoid the word, it was more, and I said this to the COs, like I'm gonna try to be the world's best at what we do, and I mean, you should want that. So if that's what JTF2 demands and that's what they need, then why would I not want to deliver that? But I knew it was gonna be almost an increase in friction. Yeah. And and it's it is most unfortunate.
Todd:I'm kinda glad the route it finally went because it worked out well, but, woof, I would say near the near the end there of b flight, it was there was friction.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. That sounds challenging for sure. It's interesting. I would have thought JTF two and b flight would have been more and more integrated as time had passed that you would have returned to, like, a deeper integration.
Bryan:But you said they had kind of almost drifted apart.
Todd:They had. And I and I'm not, you know, I'm not gonna point to leadership within b flight, but I feel as the flight came to Petawawa and settled in to Petawawa, depending on how the flight commander and the CEO worked together would then determine whether the flight was gonna try to push the boundaries and work closer with JTF two. So I I feel like there was this internal game that went on depending on the personalities involved, where by the time I got near it. I could feel that. The hill, when you know that when I talked to the CEO there, if I said, hey, we're not coming today, he would have almost not been surprised.
Todd:Oh, and I don't remember that in my days from the nineties. It was like we're all in. Yeah. So that's why I said to the guys in the flight, you know, like, hey, is that what we want? Like, where do we want to be here?
Todd:Because I don't, you know, I'm gonna run this way, is that where everybody wants to be aligned? And we had to have a bit of a come to Jesus on that to make sure that we're gonna take a run at this, and I would say we did. Mhmm. Like, near my time at the end of of b flight, we were very much in sync with JTF two. Like, a 100%.
Bryan:So another thing that you did while you were back at four two seven was to help refine maritime counterterrorism capability. I've been told that, that is one of the most challenging evolutions that four two seven continues to carry out. How specialized and demanding was that mission becoming, and what did it involve to refine that mission?
Todd:Yeah, so I would say early, maybe within a year or so of me getting back to 04/27 is they had started into this maritime counter terrorism role, multiple birds around a moving vessel that you had to find in the water, and again, insert or extract folks on it. Because of where I feel we were in a head space in the flight, we certainly weren't at the razor's edge in that domain. You know, we had to get our foundation back of core urban or rural, wherever they needed us to be on time, on target, surgical inserts, no matter how. And then this maritime side, we would kind of go back into it and and almost start to push the boundaries of refining the SOPs and really making us an instrument for JTF two to utilize if they had to go and board a specific ship. And I kind of put that in perspective to folks like, again, if we were working off a vessel and we had to insert troops on the vessel And maybe fast rope was the only way to do it or rappel was the only way.
Todd:We had never seen the vessel. Like, we got a picture of it. You make a floor model of it maybe, and you say, hey. This is where I think you can fit. And then when you get near it, it's real.
Todd:And you got birds going to different spots on it at the same time. You got antennas where they shouldn't be. You've got, you know, all kinds of stuff on maybe the deck that wasn't really supposed to be there that you weren't anticipating.
Bryan:Yeah.
Todd:So you are modifying your insert or extract while the ship is moving or at anchor with multiple birds around you doing different things. And it really was a dance. It was a it was a fine tune dance in the middle of the water with whatever sea state the, you know, mother nature was given you. And maybe it was a really black night or maybe you had moonlight. That was a very challenging part of the job.
Bryan:Wow. That sounds crazy. I mean, I've, you know, I've always thought that landing a, like, a maritime helicopter on the back of a frigate sounds pretty wild, and it is. This also sounds really, really challenging. Like, I have flown out over the ocean low level at night, and it is an abyss.
Bryan:If there's no moon, like, is crazy. So to operate in those kinds of environments and then go up close to a ship and, you know, and not a friendly ship, that's that's pretty crazy.
Todd:Yep. And I remember we we would practice with some of the, you know, east and west coast, we practice with the ships and we always met with the ship captain. We say, hey, you know, this is what we do, this is what we're gonna do. And invariably got the answer. Yes, we worked with Sea Kings.
Todd:We got it. And almost to a person and I, you know, that's why I probably brought him scotch at the end of it because the first time I would come in and hover while they're steaming along, I'm hovering over their bow, looking at them in on the bridge. And we are eyeball to eyeball as I've got a, you know, a running Huey or Griffin sitting over that that deck looking at him while troops are getting inserted. Afterwards, he'd be like, dude, you did not tell me this is what you were going to do. I said, I did.
Todd:I really did. It was crazy.
Bryan:So CANSOFCOM was officially stood up in 2006. How much did that change where SOF aviation was going in Canada and the professionalism of Canadian SOF aviation?
Todd:Yeah. I think I think when when CANSOF stood up officially in o six, that's also when CSORE stood up as a regiment in o six. It's when the squadron became a squadron doing this role, not a flight. Like there were some massive changes and sometimes we forget that because, yes, CANSOF stood up, but so did CSOF as a regiment and so did four twenty seven. Overnight, basically, everybody was under a tan beret now and four twenty seven was a Special Ops Squadron, and I'm really proud of where they are now, but back then, you really had an us and them in there because you had B Flight doing its thing.
Todd:And overnight really, stood, we gave everybody a hat and said, okay, you're all now CANSOF. And I would say, that took probably years to work the culture. So the culture wasn't a flight level culture, but the whole culture of being part of CANSOF, it probably took a decade to get it where it really started to sing as one, you know, and that because that is not an easy thing to do. It just wasn't.
Bryan:No. I mean, I can only imagine the culture shift that needs to happen to go from we are a standard tackle unit who supports the army to we are a specialized have to be the best of the best special operations aviation squadron. Like, those are two completely different animals.
Todd:They really they really are. And I don't, you know, I I, you know, at that time when you kind of look at my timeline, that's when I moved on and then I moved into the Moose Jaw time, and then and then got out. But it really was a a visionary, like a, an evolutionary time and a visionary time. And I do take my hats off to the folks that made that decision because we wouldn't be where we are. And I don't think CANS CANSOFCOM would be where they are if they had not made that decision back then to rip the band aid off and just make everybody at a squadron level, a special ops aviation, And then it evolved and I look at them now and I love going up there to the squadron.
Todd:They probably don't like me around as much as I am sometimes, but you can feel the energy of how focused and how in sync they are with what their role is. And I I that's a great that's a great atmosphere to be around.
Bryan:Mhmm. That's a big evolution from where it where it came from.
Todd:Yeah. I I mean, if I go back to my early days in the '88, being attack hell dude in 04/27 compared to now, it is I mean, some of the building's the same, but it is night and day. Yeah. Like, it is night and day, and I I couldn't be happier for them, to be honest.
Bryan:Yeah. Just to set the timeline straight for listeners, we're jumping around a little to keep kind of topics together. So you were the flight commander in Moose Jaw. You came back to four two seven to the time we just discussed. Yep.
Bryan:You went back as the commandant at Moose Jaw, which we have talked about. And then at that point in time, you made the decision to retire from the CAF. What what did it feel like or why did that feel like the right time to make that decision?
Todd:You know, it wasn't the right time. In in hindsight, There was a moral dilemma that was put in front of me where if I stayed on a path, I was almost gonna have to my integrity was gonna have to be compromised. Okay. And that is when I knew, Okay, this path has taken a change for me based on a conversation I had had. And I've got to go do something else now because the path, you know, the path that I was always on in the military, regardless of how hard I charge and I charge hard and, you know, I played hard and I worked hard, but I always looked after the troops or I always wanted to.
Todd:That was kind of priority to me. But I felt like based on that conversation, I was going to be in a spot where that was not going to be allowed now and and there was going to be conditions on me if I wanted to continue in the system. That wasn't gonna work for me.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Todd:So that's why I made that decision to leave.
Bryan:Okay.
Todd:It wasn't it wasn't the end of my time, but I knew I couldn't do it the way I wanted to.
Bryan:Yeah.
Todd:So I I made the decision. It was wasn't an easy one. Oh, I bet. But it was morally the right one, maybe for me personally, internally, and I would deal with it how I did.
Bryan:Well, you have to stay true to your moral compass. Right? Like You do. You you have to be able to look yourself in the mirror, and sometimes that means making a change. It might mean leaving a job you love, whatever the case may be.
Bryan:Right? So I respect that you that you made that that call. You ended up spending more than a decade in civilian aviation. You worked at STARZ, which we have interviewed Troy Clark about. You worked in NFTC simulation, so the The Sims in Moose Jaw, with Ocean Software and Boeing supporting the Chinook fleet.
Bryan:What perspectives did civilian life give you that the military service hadn't?
Todd:You know, I I would say this. In all those jobs that I did, there's some incredible people that they wake up every morning. They never served, but their entire focus is on supporting the military. Or in stars, they're brilliant at focused on just providing world class medical attention to somebody on their worst day.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Todd:Like, I was really blessed in all of those opportunities that I had to be around people that loved what they did and were very good at what they did. Like the sim instructors are all ex guys that we all knew in Moose Jaw, but they had so much experience to pass on and genuinely wanted to. Starz was brilliant, they're world class. Ocean Software, I mean, that's a unique path I took there, but even putting FlightPro as a around the world for them, you met guys that had served in different countries and now wanted to help, you know, let's say, school houses for pilot training.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Todd:And then Boeing was just here I am supporting our own Chinooks that we bought. Like, I was really lucky because I wasn't too far ever removed from a military fiber, But I was working in that civilian environment, learning what it was like to maybe not be under the comfort of the military. Because the what people maybe don't get is, you know, you you can pretty much do anything in the military at whatever level, even if you're just ticking along and you're not very you're not the best by any nature. You could do thirty five years and nobody's going to blink. Yeah.
Todd:But you you're not getting away with that in the city world. You're not. If if if you're not pulling your weight, you're gone.
Bryan:Yeah.
Todd:And that is a big piece that I don't think people understand when you're in the military for a long time and then you get out, you're like, who? Because there's some very good people consistently on the on the civvy side, and you gotta bring your a game.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Todd:You gotta bring your a game.
Bryan:I know exactly what you're saying. So for listeners, I don't want people to get the impression that the the status quo within the military is to just chug along and and, you know, clock in, clock out.
Todd:No. It's not at all.
Bryan:But there are people who do that. And frankly, it's not a secret that the Canadian forces is currently understaffed. And it sometimes you they're still doing their job and you need people to do their jobs. So, you know, they're gonna they're gonna stay employed. It's not the norm.
Bryan:It's not the culture that is encouraged in the forces, but it does happen. So I get what you're saying though because that same person, if they were doing that in a for profit organization, they just wouldn't be kept.
Todd:A 100%. It's it's a great way to put it, Brian. Like, you you're right. I I mean, the CAF is no different than a big company. It's gonna have every levels and layers in it of folks running and charging full speed and others that maybe aren't.
Todd:But what I find is, you know, in the civil world, a lot of decisions are based around profit margin. Mhmm. So if you are not bringing the a game and they can find somebody who will to help the business be more successful, then they will. Yeah. I'm with you.
Todd:100%.
Bryan:So you ended up coming back to the military in 2023. Yep. Before that, did you believe your time in the military was completely over, and what ended up pulling you back?
Todd:I I did. I I did. And as I was, you know, I was progressing inside Boeing. And the longer I was out, the more I felt that some of the tools I was learning and some of the lessons and knowledge I was learning on the civilian side would really have been beneficial to have some of that when I was in. It was almost like a place in around 2021, 2022, probably 2021 where I started to go, you know, man, I have learned a lot now.
Todd:And if I could bring some of that knowledge back into uniform, not so much from a flying perspective, but maybe from understanding contracts, understanding requirements, understanding a business model where, you know, in Boeing, had a a significant, you know budget that I was, executing. I had real tangible experience that I think would be beneficial back in uniform. And I I had given myself maybe enough healing. Where my memories of the military were really all positives, like I had gone and found that spot in my head where I where I really wanted to be back in and give if I could, one more time. Yeah.
Todd:And I approached the system on that, and I was encouraged, like throw your name in, man, like we'll take you in a heartbeat, and it was a good feeling to maybe be wanted back in and to be able to give back, which is kinda where my brain went as soon as I got the green light. I'm like, okay. I get to give back until now one of us decides that time's over. You know?
Bryan:Mhmm. So now you're the director air and space at CANSOFCOM. Yeah. What is your mandate in that role?
Todd:Yeah. So that role started just a few a few years ago, it really started and then it it evolved after that. But I would say that my role, whether it is forced development where let's say CANSOF's looking at different things, or it's, the sustainment of existing capabilities, or the squadron, with its, you know, its fixed wing and its rotary wing. And any of the air elements that CANSOF units need, all of it somehow is impacted through my position. So I tend to tell folks if it's surface to infinity, I'm somewhere in there, somebody in my shop or myself are working with other pieces of the organization, or let's say the RCAF on delivering a capability, maybe, airlift, maybe it is supporting Chris Brea as the CEO on personnel.
Todd:So so you're really in the middle of everything air and space that touches CANSOFCOM.
Bryan:Wow. So really, really a great position for you after all those different years and different evolutions of soft aviation in Canada?
Todd:Yeah, I'm really I'm like, I'm extremely lucky and fortunate to be in the position I I am because, you know, I a week doesn't go by where you're not having a conversation on something that you did in the past, that's come full circle three or four times now, and you're like, do we really wanna do this again? Like, I just wanna make sure, because this is how it turned out, these three, and if you want to, I'm in. But I don't like to play the I'm old game with folks because nobody really wants to hear, but if you could help shape our future, that's what I'd love. Like if I can help people be successful in whatever jobs they are or you get somebody new, like let's be honest, every summer we'll get new folks into headquarters that have never been in CANSOF before and if you can make them understand the differences of us compared to a conventional, maybe the air force or the army, and they leave really having enjoyed their time and helping us move forward, that's good stuff. Like that's that's what you wanna come to work to do.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. That sounds pretty amazing.
Todd:It is.
Bryan:One of the themes that we've been talking about is kind of how soft aviation has evolved in Canada. One of the biggest changes is that you're now not dealing just with helicopters, but intelligence surveillance reconnaissance or ISR in the form of the the vigilance, uncrewed aircraft systems or UAS in the form of the new Sky Guardian. We're looking at counter UAS space integration. How rapidly is that world evolving?
Todd:I would say, you could probably see by, you know, the events around the world how fast UAS, counter UAS has evolved.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Todd:I don't see it stopping anytime soon. I was just at meetings this week on on UAS and the growth even inside the CAF and how it's expanding in every environment. And I really believe we've only scratched the surface on space as Canadians. Like that is a area that would not surprise me in the next twenty four months that that is, it's expanding at a rate that's hard to kind of get your arms around. But you're right, like when you kind of look at where we started and where we are now, where we've got ISR platforms, very unique, supporting and working with units at a very, finite level like a connectivity level that is precise where they can work seamlessly no matter where they are and you put helos in there with UAS counter, UAS and space, we are in a whole different world when it comes to, special operations than where we were in the nineties when we were domestic counterterrorism only.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Todd:So every day, I would argue that that domain, that airspace domain is evolving. Every single day, somebody on the team comes in and goes, hey, I've heard of this, this is new, this is what's being evolved here every day. Wow. And, man, it is tough to stay in front of that. I believe it.
Bryan:You've talked about learning from global events, especially where it comes to UAS and counter UAS. What lessons from conflicts like Ukraine are shaping how SOFT thinks about survivability, technology, air integration, going forward?
Todd:Yeah. It's a great question. It dramatically shapes how we look at how different assets are utilized and the creativity on the battlefield is almost difficult to replicate in a peacetime environment. But I do think our units, because they play very close to the edge in their head of we will find a way or there is a way to make this work, they're always developing from the ground up. The troops are always looking at something going, how do we make it better?
Todd:How do we make it faster? How do we do this? So I feel like our gap is never that far off of a conflict mindset
Bryan:Mhmm.
Todd:In CANSOF because I I feel like collectively at the units, everybody kinda thinks that way. And if even if they come to me with a idea that, I mean, conventionally would be a little off the wall, I don't look at it like that. I'm like, okay, I don't know if I can do that exact, but how do I make it a yes? Because all we're trying to do is evolve because they might hear something, you know, one of the allies might let us know something and they immediately start to look at it through the lens of Canadians. Well, how does that work with our stuff?
Todd:Is that something we should start trying to incorporate in our understanding of that capability? And I feel like that is a shared partnership with our allies where everybody is learning from those that are having their worst days to maybe be closer to being ready if you find yourself in that situation. And I feel that is something we look at, we talk about often in CANSOF is it's almost like your constant evolution, you've really got to learn the lessons and the troops hold us to task on that, I think that's excellent, But you you can't you can't ever just sit back and and and go into idle. You always have to be kinda leaning full forward, trying to make sure you you're just that much ready if Canada needs you.
Bryan:What advice would you give to people who are interested in getting involved with special operations and let's say especially with special operations aviation?
Todd:The easy button for me on that is if you ever get a chance to go serve in any of the units, obviously, like, you know, at my heart is the Special Ops Aviation Squadron. But if you ever get a chance, I tell people, man, if you get two years, three, one year, you go. It changes how you will see the calf. It instantly changes you, makes, it just gives you a broader perspective, it gives you a culture that's infectious almost getting her done and you're better for it when you go back to conventional environment or job. It just does.
Todd:My advice, and I've heard senior leaders say it, who served in CANSOF, man, if you get a chance to go, you go. And it doesn't matter how long it is, if you can deploy with them somewhere and they've got and maybe one of them is running a task force somewhere and you got a chance to just be on that deployment, go 100% without hesitation. Yeah. You will never regret it.
Bryan:Yeah. I was fortunate enough to work in a very limited capacity during my time flying over Iraq with some parts of CANSOFCOM. Right. And, obviously, without going into details, but it was an incredible experience. They are just such special people.
Bryan:They are so motivating. When they brief you, you go into a CANSOF briefing like like no other briefing you've been in. You're just like, holy, like, let's get this done. Let's do this. Like, it it is an amazing experience.
Todd:Oh, really is. And, you know, I remember giving orders when I was running b flight. I'd be giving a set of orders and, you know, a 100 folks are in the room that you're gonna be moving, you know, whether it's ground and air, aviation. And all your crews are in there and you're up front, and at the end of it is a debrief, and it is a wide open debrief depending on how well you did. And that's a lot of folks in that room that are gonna tell you what they think.
Bryan:Yeah. Final question. Before you eventually hang up the flying boots for good, what ultimate goals do you hope to achieve?
Todd:I want to leave not just the CAF of I'll say the air force for sure, but I want to leave CANSOFCOM better than when I was lucky enough to join it even in 2024. If I can help move the yardsticks when it comes to a Griffin replacement tactics, the, better management of the aircrew as SOACAG chair, the units, if I can get a better, you know, capabilities for the units that they want for whatever, whether it's UAS, something on Herx or something on one of the new fleets because it helps us greatly. If I can move some of that where just at the end of the day somebody says, hey, thanks. You know what? We're better now than we were four years ago, five years ago, three years ago, I did my job.
Todd:I did, I don't expect to leave my mark, I just expect, of myself to hopefully have moved the yardsticks as far as I truly could have. And if somebody acknowledges that, hey, some of the yardsticks moved, you know what, I'm all good with that. I can retire quite nicely with that as an accomplishment.
Bryan:Awesome. Now, Todd, something you've always mentioned is you wouldn't be where you were today if it wasn't for a ton of people who have been in your corner throughout your career. Can you tell us about some of those people?
Todd:That's an excellent question, Brian. There's probably far too many for me to mention, but you don't get through this long a career both in and out of uniform without having true friends and mentors in your corner. I would like to highlight a a few, which is, general Finley. He was my first CO, four two seven squadron. Herm Harrison, CO, four fifty squadron, both very good friends of mine to this day.
Todd:During those tours, I got to fly with the likes of Lou Whitaker, Jack Kuipers, who's still flying in at four two seven, Scott Clancy. Walt Natinciuk, former CDS, was the one who gave me the chance to go to Moose Jaw as Apache flight commander. And Marcel Major, who was commandant of Moose Jaw at the time, did not know me from, you know, a load of hay and trusted that I would not only run Apache flight, at the same time as learn fixed wing and learn how to be an instructor. Mike Dabrows, four twenty seven CO, gave me the opportunity to command B Flight, And to the men and women of b flight, that was a phenomenal posting. We truly were paving the way in many aspects, and I really to, you know, to some folks like the Chris McKennas, Jeff Orr, Jay Levine, and the like, thank you for being in my corner during those years.
Todd:Rich Foster was the man pulling the strings behind the scenes for me to be comment on at the big two. And I would say general Bois Van, general Hunter, and general McKenna were the driving force for me to be in the current position I have now of director, air and space at CANSOFCOM. From a personal note, I would say my dad and my uncle Joe have literally been in my corner since day one, way
Todd:back
Todd:when I started flying, including, you know, my time at Sioux College. And they have, you know, never doubted my ability or my desire to be the best I could be and always cheering me on. But I would not be where I am without my wife and my kids and our myriad of Irish setters along the way. They have been the stabilization force in my life, but but those are some of the very key people that I do wanna say thank you. And, to you, Brian, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to be on your podcast.
Todd:It's it's truly been a joy. Thank you.
Bryan:That is going to wrap up our series on tactical and special operations aviation, which really has been part of a larger series of episodes if we include, the interview with Chris Bray. You've been so generous with your time today. This has been overall a five hour evolution, with some technical difficulties, and, I've enjoyed myself very much. It's been so interesting to learn about the the way that SOF has kind of developed from its inception in Canada and SOF aviation to what it is today. Thank you for being here.
Bryan:Thank you for sharing your very unique experiences. And, yeah, this has just been great.
Todd:Brian, I I really appreciated being on the show. I thoroughly enjoyed today. It really didn't feel like, you know, a lot of hours. When I start to hear how long my time in the system has been, that's a lot of decades that I've put behind me, but I appreciate, talking with you today. Thanks very much.
Bryan:Okay. Thank you. Okay. That wraps up our four part series with colonel Todd O'Malley on the evolution of special operations aviation in Canada. It was such an awesome experience to get a chance to know Todd on a personal level after he was a leader in my own career.
Bryan:For our next episode, our first that we've recorded in our new house here in Ontario, We will be diving into the world of mental performance in military aviation. We're going to sit down with Zoran Stojkovic. He is a mental performance coach and has worked with pilot trainees in Moose Jaw. It's a very interesting window into the experiences of a pilot trainee and how the mental performance game in pilot training relates to sports at an elite level. It's definitely a unique perspective that I don't think you'll have experienced before.
Bryan:Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this show? Would you or someone you know make a great guest, or do you have a great idea for a show? You can reach out to us at the pilotprojectpodcast@Gmail.com or on all social media at Pod Pilot Project. And be sure to check out that social media for lots of great videos of our RCAF and Mission Aviation aircraft. As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning in and ask for your help with the big three.
Bryan:That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now. Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up. See you.
Bryan:Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four engines.