We Love in a Society

We discuss the 2024 film 'The Substance,' its place in feminist cinema, and what it has to say about disability (spoilers: it's not sure).

What is We Love in a Society?

Two lovers engage in sociologically minded discussions exploring books, movies, and whatever else fits the bill.

Hi, Sam.

Hi, Hannah.

How are you doing today?

I'm good.

How are you?

I'm doing good myself.

I am feeling slimy

and bloody and burgeoning
and just all goofy with it.

I was really confused there,

because, like, you just took a shower,
so I was like, why do you feel slimy?

You just took a shower.
But now I understand.

A lot of very intense things can happen
in bathrooms, as we have learned.

Yeah, that is very on point
for our discussion today on the substance.

Yeah. Yeah.

There was so much discussion
of the stub-the substance.

I feel like. The stub-stance.

there's probably a part in the movie
that could be considered stub-stance.

Does anybody get anything
amputated at any point?

I don't know.

Let's go through the plot
and try to remember.

Yeah. Okay.

So we start. Out.

Oh. So. Yeah. Quick disclaimer.

Obviously, if you've not seen the movie
and you would like to see the movie before

we are about to go through the plot
real quick,

then you should pause and come back
and listen to our thoughts afterwards.

Or- If you.

specifically don't want to see the movie
because it's really gross.

Then you can go ahead
and listen to this conversation,

and we will not get too far
into the gory details,

or at least
we won't get too descriptive about it.

And we'll instead talk about the themes
and references and artistry.

Yeah. Yeah.

So what happens in the substance?

We meet Elizabeth Sparkles.

Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay.

I was going to say,

let's not try to do names,
but you've you've started it now. Yep.

We meet Elizabeth Sparkles.

There aren't that many names?

There's only two.

do we get the name
of the smarmy producer guy?

I don't, you know, I don't think we do.

I think we just get the two names.

Yeah.

Okay, so, so we meet Elizabeth Sparkles.

She is a movie star.

She has, a star on the Walk of Fame
sidewalk in L.A.

And- Do you think this is an alternate
universe?

No, I don't think so.

Because when I think alternate universe,
I think like a fleshed out world.

I think that this is an amalgamation

of a lot of different components
and time periods in our world.

So so our Elizabeth has a star
on the Hollywood Walk of Fame.

And she's very happy.

And she spins around
and we see sparkles and, and confetti

and then we see
all the things that happened to her star.

People Drop their fast food on it.

They walk all over it.
It gets a crack. Yeah.

And this is after
of course you know the star initially

everyone's glamorized by it.

Everyone's taking pictures with it.

Everyone's
seemingly fairly reverent towards it.

And then the star like the starlet
gets trashed and abused over time.

Yeah, I think it's a gradual forgetting
of the star's quote unquote importance.

And then we cut away to a cracked egg
in a lab gets injected with something.

Actually, that's the very first scene
is the crack egg.

yeah, the very first scene is the
you see just you just see the yolk.

Of the egg
or like the egg and the yolk. Yeah.

And they

and then you see a disembodied hand
inject the egg with some green substance.

And then you watch as the egg
yolk splits into two.

And the egg itself then splits into two.

And now we are in the future.

Well, the future of the movie, which
presumably is present day in our time.

- I don’t think so. - No? Like the future.

You think it's in the set, in the future?
No, I don't think it's set in any time.

That's what I was just saying.
I think it's timeless.

But in the chronology of the movie - Yes.

- a couple of decades past,
when Elizabeth got her star.

She is the host of a workout

program that's giving Jane Fonda.

It's giving Jazzercise.

She looks lithe and gorgeous
and glamorous.

And also, she looks like a woman
in her 50s because she is.

In fact,
it was her 50th birthday that day.

And we finish shooting our workout show

and end with the tagline
take care of yourself.

Which will become
very significant later on.

Walk down a creepy orange hallway.

Go use the bathroom.

And in walks
our smarmy producer talking on his phone.

While Elizabeth uses the bathroom.

so the reason they're in the same bathroom
is because the movie is very gender

inclusive, and all the bathrooms
are, gender non binary.

No, I was totally kidding. Oh, yeah.

No, she's, I think
what is it like they're doing?

Oh, the women’s
bathroom is being cleaned. Right.

So she walks into the men's bathroom
real quick, goes into a stall,

and then, great camerawork
throughout this movie.

you see, Elizabeth,

you see it from the perspective
of the very, end of the bathroom.

So you see Elizabeth walk in
and walk into a stall.

There's a you know, the camera's
still in the same frame where.

The mirror is?

Not the mirror where you wash your hands.

No. It's like at the opposite, like at one
end of the bathroom

is the door to the bathroom
where you walk in

the other end
is just the other end of the bathroom.

And you can

if if you're not familiar

with a male restroom,
you can imagine a line of, like, urinals.

That.

Then the cameras
at the end of that line of urinals.

And so. Yes.

So we see Elizabeth walk
in, go into a stall and then maybe, like,

not even 30s later, we see her producer
come in on the phone and using a urinal,

and it's all in the same frame
and there's no cut.

So I think it's a great, dichotomy between

Elizabeth walking in to use the restroom
and then her producer

coming in very two different,
two distinct personalities.

Yeah. You notice the difference
between how they carry themselves.

She is, making herself
small and unobtrusive

and not taking up a lot of physical
or auditory space.

And he's the opposite of that
in every way.

He comes in like a storm, and he talks
very loudly and very obnoxiously,

about how old and dried up
and and ugly and useless she is.

And she,

she hears him, decide
that he needs to get rid of her

or get something
newer and younger and fresher.

And then we see the two of them at lunch.

And this is one of the most memorable
images from the movie for me.

And I think for a lot of people
he's eating his crawfish so disgustingly.

He is just getting flesh and shell
and butter everywhere.

There's a lot of gross
fatty food going on in this movie.

And he says he's explaining to her

that she's being let go
and she says, you know,

he says when you turn 50,
it goes away or you lose it.

And then he gets distracted.

Well conveniently yeah.

He, he looks for a distraction

I think because he doesn't
want to be the Bearer of bad news.

I think real quick, what will be
interesting for our discussion later

is something that I'm kind of just
thinking about is the way that especially,

you know, because up till now we've seen
Elizabeth in a very glamorous light.

And up till now we've seen

a very.

almost vile version of this male producer.

Both in his mannerisms,
his discussion on the phone.

There's something almost kind of dirty,
too, about the use of a urinal.

and then, of course,
cut to the scene of him

eating with lots of close
ups of just him mouth

muckbang
The bits of flesh
coming out from his mouth.

Yeah. He is bestial and abhorrent.

It's not a subtle movie. No.

And then Elizabeth is driving away.

She's very upset.

She sees a billboard with her
glamorous image on it being taken down,

and she is craning her neck,

I think, to look at this billboard
and she gets into a car crash.

Yeah.
She's getting checked out in the hospital.

The doctor, cheerfully tells her
it's your lucky day.

You have some bumps and bruises,
but everything's fine.

Oh and happy birthday.
And she breaks down crying.

And the doctor, like every useless man
in this movie, awkwardly excuses himself.

Not before asking her for an autograph.

Autograph for his wife.

I, I think it's clear
that this movie is concerned

with celebrities,
not concerned about celebrities,

but it's very much
the experience of a celebrity.

Yeah.

In this aging process
and obviously a female celebrity.

So this absolutely beautiful male nurse,

strikingly, uncomfortably otherworldly.

Beautiful, piercing eyes.

Cheek bones that could cut glass.

Coldly examines her spine.

Mutters to himself something about her
being the perfect candidate.

He hands her a card.

The substance. He says it changed my life.

She leaves the hospital,
she runs into this awkward, bumbling guy,

who introduces himself as somebody
who she went to high school with.

Calls her, you know, the most
beautiful woman that he's ever seen.

She puts on her her best customer service
smile, gets through the interaction,

takes his phone number,
and then proceeds to get sloshed

at an upscale bar,
lots of red velvet carpeting and seating.

It's looking very like 50s glam.

there are stylistic elements from the 50s,
from the 80s, from the 90s and 2000.

In this movie, like, there's
there's a real timelessness about it.

And then that
the aesthetic of the substance

and everything related to
it is very modern start up.

it reminded me of another favorite horror
movie of mine.

It follows, where, like, the whole movie,
you're not sure what decade you're in,

and what season it is in.

You're not sure, what technology
is available to everybody, you know,

you see leaves falling from the trees,
but then people are swimming in a pool.

Nobody has a phone,
but somebody has this weird,

like, clamshell device,
and it adds to the creepiness.

And, and I feel like that was being used
in this movie too.

Now full disclosure.

When I went and saw the substance
I went into it knowing

nothing on purpose because I was told
this is this amazing feminist body

horror movie and it is best
if you go into it a complete blank slate.

And I was disappointed in it
for that reason.

So she got sloshed on her martinis.

She wakes up the next morning.

She's drinking her Emergen-C
or Alka Seltzer or whatever.

Looking at a very old fashioned newspaper,
there is an ad.

Are you the next Elizabeth Sparkles
casting call?

that drives her to the point where she
reaches into the trash can, where she has

thrown away the card for the substance,
and she makes a phone call.

And this very cold, dismissive
sounding voice on the other line.

Great voice work, by the way.

Yeah.

As you said, like tech startup
cold efficient.

Yeah. Optimized.

We've been talking about that a lot lately
with all of the political happenings

that have been going on.

But a great embodiment of that in in
just a voice

So the voice gives her an address.

She goes to the address.
It is very creepy.

Industrial kind of warehouse district.

She has you know, she is so dignified
and fashionable and she has to crouch down

to, to crawl under this, door
in this alley that won't open all the way.

And she goes to her locker.

She gets her starter
kit, she brings it home.

And now

we are in her big, gleaming,
beautiful white bathroom.

This kit, it looks like a medical kit.

And there is a set of instructions
that say

something about “You switch
every two weeks

without exception.” Remember -
Is it every two weeks or every week?

Is it every week? -
I don't know I don't remember.

And remember you are one.

And in this sequence in the bathroom
we see her undergo this medical procedure

that she's doing herself,

Injecting herself with a green substance
that she has, that

she has no way to verify
the actual validity of its components.

And she seems kind of skeptical. Yeah.

And she falls to the ground

and in this very birth like sequence out

from Demi Moore's spine, pops.

Margaret, I think.

Also lithe and fit and beautiful.

But a few decades younger.

I read this scene,
and because I read this in this way,

I read the rest of the movie
this way, but.

The two share one continuous
consciousness.

So, when this younger

body emerges
from Elizabeth Sparkle's body,

I understood it to be Elizabeth
stepping out into this younger body.

Is that how you.
When I first saw this scene?

Especially because like it

was shot from her point of view
when we see her by looking in the mirror.

Yeah.

I don't know.

there's a little bit of hindsight
bias of knowing the whole movie.

I want to say, though, that I think
if not initially,

I think the movie did try to establish how
these were almost two different people.

I thought the complete opposite.

In the sense that they became so

embittered with each other.

But we'll get into that.

Yeah, but. That's all about self-hate.

Yeah. Yeah.

Which i thought
was like the main point of this movie.

Yeah.

Like, how many times does the movie
repeat: “Remember, you are one.” - Yeah.

- “Respect The balance.” Yeah.

And I feel like one of the major emotional

impacts of the movie was self-loathing.

So, yeah, I feel pretty strongly
that they are one consciousness

right up
until they are in the same room together.

So out pops, this live nude young woman.

I think there's also an interesting way
in which I assume this movie is.

I'm pretty sure. Yeah,
this movie was directed by a woman.

Yeah. Yeah.

In which the movie portrays Female nudity.

There
there is no male nudity that I remember.

Maybe like a butt.

Oh, yeah, there's a butt the guy later on.

Oh, yeah. Sure.

But for the most part it's female nudity.

I think there is.

Possibly an interesting discussion there
about how it's portrayed here

and especially how it starts
and where it goes,

versus maybe in other movies especially,

male directed movies, which can tend to be
a little bit more male gaze and leery.

Yeah.

I mean, I definitely think there's
a lot of male gaze going on in this.

But it use it's not.

Yeah, it's using that.

And then it goes it
kind of takes that to its logical extreme.

Yes. Logical extreme.

Which again we'll get into.

So she, she vomits up some green stuff

and, examines herself in the mirror.

She sets up.

said this to you
while we were watching it, the I.

It struck me how much care she took

with the elder Elizabeth Sparkle's body.

She gives her the IV

and the food for main self.

She tucks a pillow or something
underneath her head.

She lays her out comfortably,
brushes her hair out of her face.

And then makes her way out into the world
and to the casting - well.

Also, don't forget that maybe I don't want
to get too much into the body horror,

but she also has to stitch up
that hole in her back.

Spine. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. It this is a body horror movie.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like.

So, that's a theme that you and I keep on
coming back to when our conversations

about it is a lot of the people
who took issue with it,

their main issue seems to be it's
a body horror movie to which we say,

yes, it is.

That is the kind of movie that it is.

And if that's not what you like,
you will not like it.

But I don't really think it's fair
to hold that against it.

Yeah.

You know I don't watch a fast
and the furious movie and walk out

disappointed and say
there was a bunch of car crashes in it.

Yeah. That's what it's going to be.

And so there's,

there's a conversation to be had there
about high brow low brow art.

And horror's place in

the hierarchy of cinema.

Anyway so

at this point I'm watching the movie
the first time I'm thinking oh great,

she's going to go get some revenge
on that horrible producer.

That is not where the movie goes.

She goes, she gets cast.

As the new Elizabeth.

As the new Elizabeth
Sparkles but her name is Sue.

And her dancing is a lot

more hip thrusting a lot more, you know.

Less jazzercise, more twerking.

Yeah. There's a lot of humping the floor.

Yeah.

Her outfit is sparkly

and with lots of cutouts.

And she starts to experience
a lot of success.

Things seem to be going okay now.

Mind you.

So the, the kind of, I guess plot device
that makes their for, for the conflict

is the fact that every two weeks
or every seven days,

whatever the time period is,
they have to switch.

So now Sue is in this role
where she's basically taken up,

Elizabeth's role in this production
company as a aerobics type dancer.

And but she's told the company,
hey, every other week, I gotta go

take care of my mom.

Yeah. Yeah.

Which is an interesting point in itself.

so she is basically gone every other week.

And we see the difference

between how Elizabeth was being treated
and how Sue gets treated.

Oh, yeah. For sure.

So Sue makes some alterations
to the apartment.

She puts a hole in the bathroom wall.

And you know
sets up this dark sort of cave.

For whichever
self is not in use to get stowed away.

She takes down
on the picture of Elizabeth.

And as she's doing all this construction,
her kind of goofy bro-ey

neighbor
comes knocking to complain and gets one

look at her and becomes, like, immediately
deferential and flirty.

Yeah, it's definitely the old cartoon.

Oh, Homina homina. Yeah.

Boi-oi-oi-oi-oing Boi-oi-oi-oing
But you know, he comes in

guns blazing because he's expecting
to talk to Elizabeth, right?

A 50 year old woman.

Yeah. Yeah.

one night, Sue goes out
drinking and dancing

and partying with a group of her young,
glamorous friends.

She's got her red bottoms
and a, a black leather bodysuit.

And this is the most memorable example
of something that happens

a lot of the time when around the time
that the consciousness switches bodies,

they'll have these, nightmare sequences.

There's one where she's on set and a
chicken bone emerges from her stomach.

now, something that other-self
Sue has to do

to keep herself fresh and healthy

is, take spinal fluid from Elizabeth
and inject it into her body.

Otherwise, she she gets fatigued,
she gets nosebleeds,

She starts to break down.

And she needs a little bit of extra
time to hook up with this guy.

So she goes and gets some extra
spinal fluid.

Goes to finish her, her hook up,

and as he unzips her black body suit,
you see, just like all of this

viscera fall out from the zipper, and
it's not something that actually happens.

It's a it's a nightmare sequence.

And we wake up as Elizabeth again.

And when we wake up,
it's Elizabeth this time,

because Sue borrowed extra time
from Elizabeth.

More than the week.

More than the week. Yeah. But not by much.

Now, her index finger

looks wrinkled, arthritic.

The nail is discolored.

There's some visible veins and bruising.

Clearly, a it has been aged.

An aged finger. And she is

horrified and and so self-conscious.

And she calls the substance company
to complain.

They explain what is what has done.

Cannot be undone.

And you need to respect the balance.

And she goes

to, pick up her supplies
from the substance and.

They ask her if she wants to stop. Yes.

Should they ask her if she wants to stop.

And she says you know,
will my finger go back?

And they say what it's done
cannot be undone.

You can end your experience now.

As is.

And she declines.

She says We just
we just need to respect the balance.

And she's reminded again, “You are one.

” She goes to pick up
more of her supplies.

And in the diner she runs into an old man
who is clearly

the nurse
who recruited her in the hospital.

Same piercing blue eyes.

And he says,
he says some really poignant things

to her, including
has she started chipping away at you.

Yeah.

Referring to Sue.

Has Sue
started chipping away at Elizabeth.

And in this outing
she also runs into the same man

who Sue was hooking up
with the night before.

And that man is really rude to her.

So we're seeing ageism and sexism

happen to her.

And instead of feeling resentful
toward the world,

she feels resentful toward Sue,
who is, of course, her.

Which

is something that I think
a lot of women can probably relate to.

In the most memorable scene in the movie,
for me and for a lot of other people,

She calls the man who she ran into

outside of the hospital
who she went to high school with and

they agree to meet for a drink.

And she puts on this beautiful red dress,
some long black gloves

because she's self-conscious
about her finger.

She puts on this gorgeous makeup
and she's about to head out,

and then she starts fussing with her
makeup and her outfit,

and she's just getting later
and later to this date,

as she keeps on manipulating
and then eventually abusing herself.

She can't bear to show her face.

And that's when,
you know, it's kind of over for her.

She starts spending her days

watching TV and gorging herself on food

that does not look remotely appetizing,
but looks very like

fatty and meaty.

There's a lot of gristle.
There's a lot of fat.

There’s a lot of globules.

And she starts leaving messes
for Sue to have to deal with.

And Sue in turn speaks unkindly,
about Elizabeth

on a late night
talk show and borrowing more time

from Elizabeth as Elizabeth's physical
condition continues to deteriorate.

By deteriorate I mean more patches of her
look, more aged.

Arthritic, Hair. Graying hair, graying.

Her, Her joints look

stiff and bent.

Until eventually Sue decides
to just keep Elizabeth

in the dark room indefinitely.

Meanwhile, Sue's career is taking off.

She is set to host
the New Year's Eve show.

Which is an interesting, Scene, too.

It's about this time.

Sue's been doing this for,
maybe a month now.

switching back and forth and,
so Sue has become a hot topic.

That's why she gets the, New Year's
Eve show because of the show's ratings.

But there's a very.

Her and her show gets moved to more prime
time.

Right.

There's a very interesting scene where.

And this is where Sue starts breaking
down.

It's around the time when Sue starts

having the nightmares of,
like, body dysmorphia.

the scene with the chicken bone
where she feels like,

she feels like something poked out of her,

And so they're in the middle
of filming something,

and then she starts
to freak out all the sudden,

and then they're like, oh, well,
let's let's rewind that and take a look,

because someone's like,
I think they saw something.

And she's asking for a robe.

Yeah, she of a robe.

She doesn't want her body
to be showing. Yeah.

And so everyone's turns to the big screen.

They zoom in on her butt.

It's taking that initial glamorizing
of the male gaze into like

just this magnification
to the point of obscenity.

Yeah.

And, and I think it's a great, example of
how even someone young and deemed

so conventionally attractive
can still have these body dysmorphias Yes.

Yeah.

Neither of them truly feels beautiful
and safe in their own body.

Right?

And no amount of adoration

and success can make her feel beautiful
and safe in her own body.

And when she is fully broken down,
her nose is bleeding.

She's gotta switch.

And she's got this very handsome
boyfriend over.

This was the scene that I was
laughing my butt off at.

And you were not really.

I thought it was so interesting
that I laughed so hard at this scene.

And you did not.

And then there was another scene later on
that you were laughing at, and I was not.

And it's, you know, this.

This muscular glistening bro

that is, is clearly
her boyfriend is there and she switches.

Bodies and he's knocking

on the bathroom door and Elizabeth wakes
up, you know, just like, fully bald,

very wrinkled,
hunched over her, stiff limbs.

And she looks like she she doesn't really.

Look,
no person would really look like that.

Unless they were

really not cared for. And

and he knocks on the door.

And and says “Babe?” And, you know,
she snarls at him.

I thought it was so funny
and he eventually,

you know, leaves,
and this is when she has reached

the end of her line
and she says, I want to stop.

Calls the substance and says,
I want to stop.

Yes, yes, I want to stop.

And they say, we're sorry that you didn't
enjoy your experience

and give her an injection that she can,

that she can use on Sue
in order to terminate The shared

consciousness, double body experience.

And it was by this point

that I was feeling iffy about this movie
because of the way that it used.

Imagery of physical disability as horror.

You see,

you see limbs that are.

Bent, disfigured, deformed joints
that are fixed

in, a position that you're not accustomed
to seeing joints in.

And this is supposed to be horrific
and terrifying.

There's one shot in particular
that I found kind of laughable.

It was, Elizabeth in the shower,
and the camera

panned up her body,
and it was just showing an aged body,

and it was playing this, like,
kind of psycho music.

And it was like, isn't this horrific?

And I was just thinking, I mean, no,
it's it's just an old lady's body.

It's fine. And

we'll get

into a conversation about it
after we finish the plot summary.

But it, it seemed like
the movie was using disability a lot

without having much
to say about disability.

It had a lot to say about

self-care, about sexism,
about objectification,

about self-love and self-loathing.

But in order to say those things,
it was using images of disability

without really knowing
what it thought about disability.

I thought maybe other people
have a different take on that.

I haven't really seen any commentary
about the substance

that talks about disability at all,
which I think is a pretty major.

Forgive my unfortunate phrasing,
but Blind spot

in the discourse about the substance.

Oversight.

Oversight and so, anyway,
she's ready to inject Sue

with this terminating thing,

and changes her mind at the last second.

She says you're the only
part of me that's lovable.

Sue wakes up

and the two of them
have this brutal fight.

This was the part that you were
laughing at?

Yeah, It's a great example
of a great fight scene

because there's more going on
than just two people fighting.

It's really progressing the plot here.

You know we're seeing the,

the tension that has been building between

these two selves of this person literally

come to a fist fight, no holds barred.

I mean, they are beating the crap
out of each other and.

Like,
that you're hearing sounds similar to

if you were to take one of those hammers

that used to tenderize meat and just,
like, pound away at a piece of steak?

Picture that.

But it's somebody's face getting punched.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's

along the theme of the movie.

It is very gruesome.

Body horror adjacent fight scene.

And it's also incredibly unrelenting
in how...

Cause Sue, being the younger version,
pretty much dominates

throughout the course of the fight.

I mean, And Sue has forgotten
that she needs Elizabeth.

Yeah. Yeah.

Sue is unleashing all of her rage
because I think maybe something

that we didn't emphasize as much
is that leading up to this,

Sue has just become increasingly
more disgusted with Elizabeth

because of how she's been living her
her weeks.

Sue sees Elizabeth's

time as a waste.

And so that's kind of
how she begins to justify

stealing. Stealing the time from her.

Yeah. And so.

And it's again, the fight scene
I think is an incredible embodiment

of just how brutal sometimes
I think we can be to our, ourselves.

And also I think there's kind
of a very evocative

component of it, of how mean we can
sometimes be to older people. Yep.

this movie is all about
is all about taking things to the extreme.

But I think in that in doing so

and in recognizing how ridiculous it is,

it does make us think about how,

you know,
maybe things aren't that extreme,

but there are certainly aspects
of our society that reflect

what is going on and why this movie
is trying to say the things that is.

So Sue goes to the studio for her
big New Year's Eve.

And she, she shows up at the studio

and without Elizabeth, of course,
she starts physically deteriorating.

We get a little ‘The Fly’ moment
where she's in the bathroom,

her nails are coming off,
her teeth are coming out.

And we get,

Margaret

Qualley just serving face this like,

tearful grimace with these bloody stumps
where her front teeth used to be.

Just very capital-A Acting and,

And she realizes
that she can't go on like this.

She needs a better version of herself.

So she decides to go back to her apartment
and use the substance again.

To use the substance on herself.

She says I just need
a better version of myself.

And as she's leaving,
she runs into the producer and all of the,

the board members who are of course,
all old white men in suits

kind of gathered around her.

You see this like creepy.

It is funny how and now
that I'm thinking about it, Dennis Quaid.

His character.

When his character
and then obviously the other, you know,

men ogling,
there's this like this fishbowl effect.

Yeah. They're shot from below.

Yeah.

And it's, it is an interesting way
to kind of almost reverse the male gaze.

Yeah.

It makes you feel like as the viewer,
you are inside the panopticon.

And all of these old men
are staring at you. Yeah.

It's a great. It's a great visual.

Yeah. In that. Moment.

Yeah. And he he says, aren't you happy?

And she nods, and he says, then smile.

And of course, she can't smile with teeth
because her teeth have just come out.

So she gives them this like closed mouth
smile with tears in her eyes.

And he says, oh, that's that's right.

Pretty girl should always smile.

So Sue goes home, uses

a substance on herself and,
we've now reached part three of the movie.

So part one was Elizabeth Sparkles.

Part two was Sue, and part
three was something monstera.

Yeah. Eliza-something ElizaSueMonstera.

Yeah.

So and this is where the movie
as a disabled viewer really lost me.

She emerges looking

every bit like John Merrick.

She has Gonna have to explain John.
Merrick.

Oh, the Elephant Man.

So she's got tumors and growths.

you see the face of Sue in the face
of Elizabeth on various parts of her body.

And part of why the movie really lost me

at this moment, when I first saw it,
was that I first saw it in the theater.

And part of the fun of seeing a body
horror movie in the theater is

you are experiencing it communally.

And as all the gross stuff happens,
everybody goes, oh no, God, why?

You know, out loud and laughs and gasps
and cringes together.

And at this moment

that the third self

emerges, everyone in the theater
that I was in was laughing.

And when you and I rewatched it together,
neither of us was laughing,

and I realized what a tender scene
it really is.

There is soft music, soft lighting.

She dresses herself
carefully in this blue gown.

She puts earrings on.

And you said to me at that moment,
this is the only version

who thinks that she's beautiful.

And she puts a picture of Elizabeth

from a magazine onto her face, adds
some lipstick, goes to the studio.

And at this point, things
get a lot more surreal.

Supposedly,
this is a family friendly New Year's

Eve broadcast, but there are topless
showgirls running around.

When she gets to the stage door.

The stage manager
does not react to her at all.

He says oh, good.

Finally
you're here and pulls her right in.

And we get the big
third act sequence that is,

you know, for all of my issues
with this movie.

This was not one of them. It was.

It's it's a very intense,
very violent third act sequence.

She emerges on stage.

Everybody is stunned by her.

But interestingly, it's
not what you'd expect.

Like, you would you would think
they would, that people would see.

Eliza-monster-Sue and.

It's like there's a
there's a subtle distinction.

It's like they're disgusted,
but not afraid.

They don't see her as a threat,
I don't think.

At least not initially.

They're they're disgusted at her.

And it's almost as if.

They're judging her
solely on her appearance,

which, I mean, I think they are.

And I've been. Doing the whole. Time,
which they've been doing the whole time.

So it's almost like any of

the versions could have walked out
on stage to a certain extent.

I think it's maybe there's
a component of it that it's more about.

This is, you know, there's
the nightmare sequences throughout.

This is a very surreal movie.

And I think that there's an extent
to which

this is an inherent fear of Elizabeth Sue,

Monstera-Sue's personality
that people will be disgusted with her.

there's not this reaction of like fear
that I, it's not quite Frankenstein.

Well not yet.

Right, right.

She starts to say “I'm
so happy to be here.” Starts coughing.

And coughs up a boob
which I found hilarious

and very poetic
because we're talking about the male gaze.

We've been watching the male gaze
in action

through this whole movie,
and it's kind of, an exaggeration

of, you know, I'm going
to give you exactly what you want to see.

Yeah.

A closeup of a.

too - and a close up of it.
And that's when,

the crowd starts shouting,
it's a monster and kill the monster.

And to me, this felt
very the Elephant Man.

It felt very freaks.

And she is heartbroken and confused,

and she's trying to say,
no, it's me, it's Elizabeth, it's Sue.

I won't hurt you.

Of course she is not

in any kind of physical form
that's going to last for very long.

And we get the firehose of blood sequence

that a lot of people
found very distasteful.

To which I say you did
go see a body horror movie.

Yeah. So that was going to happen and.

And very fitting, like if, if,
if we had gotten to this point

without the escalation of body horror
that had been coming throughout the movie,

I mean, it's not like
If The Exorcist started with the pea

soup projectile vomiting, you'd be like,
what's going on?

What am I watching? Yeah.

You have to.

You have to earn it. Yeah.
And they earned it. Yeah.

She deteriorates.

And the final redeeming shot
is of just Elizabeth's face

sort of crawling around like a slimy
little crab.

Yeah.

there are like different parts
of both women's bodies and faces and faces

and as you said, the face of Elizabeth.

Is all that's left.

And it, Or she crawls along

the sidewalk, lands on the star,
and then the her star.

Her star, and then the final shot.

We have the glittery confetti falling

from the sky
and the roar of the adoring crowd.

And she has this last moment of bliss
before her life ends.

Before she dries up and.

Turns to ash. Turns to ash,

and then a sweeper comes over, sweeps it.

Away.

Which is a callback to the
the opening sequence.

So, a lot going on.

Yeah.

When I first saw this movie,
my biggest issue with it

was that I felt like it was setting us up

to watch a critique of patriarchy
and the objectification of women.

And how we treat female celebrities
and women

in general as disposable
once they've aged past a certain point.

But I felt that, if that was the point,
then why did the movie punish the woman

so much more brutally than it punished
anyone else?

I, on second viewing,
didn't feel that way anymore.

I was ready for what
the plot was going to be,

I was more amenable to this morality

play, this parable about self-love.

That she is a tragic figure
and her tragic flaw

is that she cannot bring herself
to love herself.

It's too late. Yeah.

And that's why the. Take care of yourself.

Remember that you are one.

Like those, those lines are so poignant
and why the fight scene

where she's just beating up on herself.
Yeah. Yeah.

I did on second viewing continue
to have issues with like how the film used

imagery of disability to make its point
without really meaningfully engaging with.

What disability means in this

maelstrom of body image,

sexism, patriarchy, sexuality.

Glamor, beauty.

I feel like disability
is it's such a big piece of that puzzle.

Yeah.

Because disability
is such a fundamental part of humanity

and embodiment in a way that most people
don't want to contend with.

We like to think of disability as

aberration, unnatural, separate and apart.

Other.

When in reality, unless you are walking
around one day perfectly

young, healthy, with all of your limbs
and fingers and toes

and a piano falls on your head
and you die, you will become disabled.

We will all become disabled.

Yeah.

Disability is as natural
a part of life as eating

and pooping
and having sex and dancing and singing.

It's.

It is just a human attribute.

Yeah. Inevitability.

And what I felt like this
movie was setting up

and maybe you felt
differently was that there is

the morally correct way to age

that is not tragic, is
and is not abhorrent and is not horrific.

Where you age gradually and naturally.

And then there is the punishment,
aging that Elizabeth goes through,

where it happens, it accelerated-ly
and and and in patchy ways.

And that is to be feared
because you have, fought against nature.

I think there is a reading of the movie
that that is a reading of the movie.

I don't think.

That was the intention.

I don't think that was the intention.

I think like it's supposed
to be a commentary on self-love

and how these forces around us
make that fundamental task so difficult.

And, and I don't think it was necessarily

trying to be prescriptive in like here's
the solution.

No, it does not give you a solution.

and it's also not,
I think trying to be an embodiment of even

just women's
like every woman's experience with this.

It does capture certain moments of that.

But this is very much
from the point of view of who

the main character is,
a 50 year old celebrity

who's a woman trying to continue

to make a living for herself
in the My interpretation

wasn't that she needed money.

My interpretation was that

it was an emotional need, not.

Yeah.

She needed admiration and connection.

And of course like.

A comment that I've heard about
this movie was if only she had one friend.

But this is not real life right.

This is a morality play about a world
that is made up

of all of the most sexist and cruel
and vapid

impulses
that exist in the world that we lived in.

So she's not going to have a friend.

There will be no one to save her.

She will have a tragic flaw,
and she will fall. Yeah.

And I think the movie tries
to set up a relationship,

a friend for her in the high school.

It's this one opportunity for connection.

Yeah.

It's out on because she can't
bring herself to accept herself.

And, yeah, to go out and be seen.

Yeah. She can't be.

She can't stand to be visible. Yeah.

And that was such
an emotionally impactful scene for me.

And that I guess that's why I like

I had

trouble, especially upon my first viewing
and not taking the muddled

messaging and imagery around disability
more personally.

I took it very personally
because that scene

of, like,

looking in the mirror and,
and wrestling with your own self-loathing

to me is so fundamental
to the disability experience,

the disabled woman experience
that I have in my life.

So then for the movie
to kind of turn around

and invoke disability
as something that is objectively horrific.

is just silly to say,
but the movie hurt my feelings.

Yeah.

Would you say

that this was an example of.

someone who had something
they wanted to say

and maybe was so singularly focused

on that one aspect of it that they didn't

think about how it could be

viewed from people in a similar situation.

I don't know.

I can't look into the directors brain.

I was reminded after the first time
I saw it, I was thinking about, King Kong

King Kong
is a movie about, a giant gorilla

who is brought to another continent and,

destroys a lot of it and develops
a friendship with, human woman.

And when I describe it that way,
you would say, okay, that doesn't

really sound like it would be about race,
but anybody who knows anything about King

Kong knows that it's about race,
and it's about racial anxieties.

It is about, fear of like the
the the dark jungles of Africa

and the, the primitive, bestial lives
that exist there.

And, like,

you can understand it
to be a pretty racist movie,

even though it is not, in fact,
about Africans.

And I felt the same way
about The Substance that I thought,

you know, this is a movie
that is not explicitly about disability.

There are no disabled characters.

And yet it it it exposes
a great deal of feelings about disability.

And perhaps in ten years, in 20 years,
with more evolved eyes,

watching this movie,

we will see, you know, the same way that
modern viewers watching King Kong can say

this movie has a lot to say
about racial anxiety, as we would

maybe watch the substance and realize this
movie has a lot to say about disability

anxieties, anxieties about disability
and aging and, and disabled bodies.

Yeah.

That, that the creative directors
didn't necessarily intend.

Yeah. Yeah. You’re
not always conscious about.

Oh yeah.

That kind of the associations
that you're invoking

when you're trying to tell one story.

But for that flaw

I do think it's a really brilliant horror
movie.

Yeah.

I would say I would recommend this movie.

I would recommend this movie.

I guess I don't know how to

how to recommend it in the sense
like if you're okay with body horror.

I mean, I think.

I wouldn't recommend that to just anyone.
Yeah.

If you like your Cronenberg,
your carpenter's, your

your goop and your slime.

Yeah. Then go ahead and watch this. Yeah.

Certainly. If you are. Yeah.

If you are a body horror fan,
I think this will.

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