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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:01.016)
Good morning, afternoon, evening.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:02.872)
Good day to you. Good day, mate.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:06.274)
Good day, fine sir, fine ma'am, wherever you are listening. We're gonna talk centers, one battle after another, maybe other stuff before we do. I just wanna quickly say, and I'm sure you may want to as well, that we are not unaware of what's happening in Minneapolis. The murder of Renee Good, ICE, thugs, Gestapo, whatever we wanna call them taking over. It's abhorrent, disgusting, terrifying, and...
There's lots of folks talking about these things. Our show has a bit of lag time as was evident by releasing the Venezuela story that we did on Monday, days after Renee Good was murdered. So I think, you know, our thought right now is like, we know all of that and we're as bogged, we're as overwhelmed as everyone else. And like, I just don't know that I have capacity at this moment to talk more about it. And so it feels good to talk about something else that's
Taina Brown she/hers (01:01.386)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:04.896)
in the news that's interesting that still talks about liberatory ideas. But I just wanted to acknowledge the like big elephant in the room because that is there and looming and by the time this air is probably even worse than it already is.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:18.837)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:20.716)
Enough about that. It's awful. It's awful. It's awful. It's awful. We could do a whole episode on it, but by the time it would run, it would be outdated. we're going to talk about sinners and one battle after another. And I don't know if you watched his and hers, but that's a potential thing too. So these are, we're going to talk some entertainment. One of the reasons being you saw those, you saw both one battle after another and sinners, I believe in the theater as they came out. And I did not, I don't go to the theater anymore.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:40.471)
I saw... No, one battle after another I saw at home. Sinners I saw in the theater.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:52.33)
why did I think you saw one battle after another in the theater because I thought you were like, I had to step out of the theater.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:00.087)
no. No, we did see it in the, we did see it in the theater. You're right. Fuck.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:00.45)
You had to step out of the room while you guys were watching? You texted me. Yes, because you were like, had to step out of the theater. Yeah. Anyway, you watched them when they were released. I don't go to theaters anymore because I'm old and I have a kid and I don't know. But they're now both, I believe, both on HBO. They're both available on streaming services. You can find them online on streaming services. And I didn't have to pay to download them. So I finally watched them both.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:24.094)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:28.768)
and had lots of thoughts. now I'm like, okay, now I want you wanted to talk about them when they came out. And I was like, I haven't seen them. So now we can talk about them. And then his and hers, which is on Netflix, just came out and the social media world's a buzz about it. and it also speaks to some race issues. So I thought it might be interesting. So where do we start? Centers came out first. One battle after another was after. Do we start with a comparison of the two? We talk about each movie individually.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:52.503)
you
Becky Mollenkamp (02:55.052)
I'm most intrigued honestly about one battle after another with because you texted me as you were seeing it saying like I had to step out. I'm so triggered and I would I'm kind of curious about that. So I don't know where you want to start, but that's where my greatest intrigue lies at the moment.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:10.844)
Yeah, yeah. I don't know where to start. I did watch His and Hers. I watched it last night.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:18.414)
Also, I guess we should say spoiler alerts. I'm sure we're gonna talk about completely through the plots of all of these things. So if you haven't seen any of them, come back after you do. So here's one battle after another, his and hers. If you haven't seen any of these things and you want to, pause now, come back. Yeah, yeah, okay. There, we've done our due diligence. Nobody can get mad at us now. So where do you wanna start?
Taina Brown she/hers (03:23.6)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Unless you don't care.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:34.007)
Stop listening right now.
Yeah, let you know what, let's start with his and hers since I did watch it last night and it does take place in Georgia where I live.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:46.007)
Okay, what's most recent?
It does. Dala Nega, Dala Nega, Dala Nega. I don't know how you say it. Dala Nega, darn it. See, I even already remember it wrong. Which is like a, a suburb of Atlanta, I don't think, but it's sort of just north of there, right? Okay. So not a suburb. And kind of a, I get the impression it's a wider area. Yeah. And probably a more conservative if I'm not wrong, cause it's outside of Atlanta. Okay. And you know those areas.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:54.08)
The Lanaga.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:02.549)
It's a couple hours north. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:10.178)
yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:14.024)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We actually, we passed when I didn't realize it took place in Dahlonega and the Atlanta area when I first watched it, when it first started. And there was one scene in the beginning where they're driving around the Dahlonega town square. And I was like, that looks like, that kind of looks like Dahlonega because we drive through there.
Or we would when we lived in Georgia to get to the cabin that we would rent. We would try to do it like once or twice a year, these cabins and the North Georgia mountains. And Dahlonega is like the closest big town to to those cabins. And so sometimes we go in to just like sit at a coffee shop or for the holidays like they do.
They do it up really well. But yeah, was interesting. I know you said in the book the main female character is not Black.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:23.576)
The main character and her mom are both white in the book. So I think the book basically everyone's white from what I can tell. I have not read the book. So I want to be clear about that. It's an Alice Feeney book. I believe if I'm not mistaken by the author's name and I've not read any of her work so I can't speak to her or anything else. I do know Jessica Chastain is the executive producer who helped to bring this from Walt to Netflix. And I know that there were some that it was intentional obviously to make that choice to switch the character.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:30.302)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:43.989)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:53.486)
the main character and her mom from white women to black women in the series. She remains married to a white man in the, which was obviously in the book, everyone was white. So in the Netflix series, that's the only major change around race. I don't know about Helen, the Asian woman in the show. I don't know if she was Asian in the book, so I can't speak to that. But in the book, everyone's white. And so in this show, it was an intentional decision.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:14.26)
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:21.762)
to change those two characters to black women. So that's, I think, an interesting choice.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:28.968)
Yeah, it is an interesting choice because it is the South and it is
Taina Brown she/hers (06:37.215)
Georgia country. If you know anything about Georgia politics, Atlanta is.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:42.35)
as blue as you get, exactly. It's flaming blue surrounded by flaming red. Yeah. It's this giant blue dot and otherwise very red. Other than maybe Athens. Like I think there's a couple little pockets of like college, but yeah. But I mean, it's primarily, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:43.231)
Blue. And every everywhere else is red. Yeah, everywhere else is very red. Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:56.725)
little dots. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, that's why we still have, or they still have, we, don't live here anymore, that's why they still have a Republican governor, that guy. But yeah, so it was, it was not as triggering as like one battle after another, or even sinners, but it was...
interesting. I'm curious as to why they decided to change the race. Do you know why?
Becky Mollenkamp (07:31.992)
Well, I think it brings, no, I don't know why. And I would love to read something from Jessica Chastain or others. I'm sure it's out there. haven't done that deep dive that I sometimes do with things when I get like hyper fixated. But I did read a lot of discourse on threads from other black women who were very excited about the Netflix show and that reframing and the importance of that, particularly around the reveal at the end of the show.
the surprise twist again, I've told you. if you listen, this is your decision if you haven't seen the show. So the big spoiler is that the killer is actually her mother, right? And she's doing all of these killings to protect her daughter. And it is a representation of sort of this black mother love that so many women that are either black mothers or have black mothers on threads talking about that depiction of a black mother making these really difficult choices.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:11.219)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:27.668)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:28.056)
to protect her child in a way that's often not shown because often we see Black mothers as we see in one battle after another, right, who are careless, heartless, choosing drugs over their children, know, choosing sex over their children, all of these sorts of depictions that we have of often of Black mothers and to see a Black mother who is willing to do literally anything to protect her child, especially when her child is now.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:36.2)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:49.19)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:52.668)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:55.98)
becoming a mother, right? Like there was, there was these layers around and to bring it to centers too of this like generational trauma and healing that I think a lot of people really appreciated and that that doesn't necessarily carry that weight when it's a white mom and a white dog.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:57.235)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:15.013)
Yeah, yeah, especially in that geographical location where there's such a history of like really bad race relations and like.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:19.148)
Well, and yes.
And then the school piece is also really important because in the story, she sends her daughter to this very prestigious private school. And she's a lowly, quote unquote, housemaid, right? But she's able to get her daughter into the school. She's the only Black child then in this school. And what is the dynamics, the added dynamics that brings that wouldn't be there if it was a, you know, there's still the class piece that would exist, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (09:31.293)
Private school, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:51.834)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:52.952)
But it adds such so much more richness and context to that part of it as well, because now you're layering in the experience of a black girl inside of a school full of white girls and that mean girls piece of it. The dynamics change radically. And I think also maybe to degree helps explain even more the atrocities that happen, right? That are some of the reasons for the murders that are happening.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:03.613)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:21.105)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:22.178)
that extra layer of misogynoir explains so much this like sitting around laughing as a, you know, a girl is sexually assaulted that again, class may not be enough to fully explain, right? Like I think it just adds that it adds a lot more social commentary I felt like.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:36.935)
The, yeah, the brutality of that. Yeah, yeah, it really takes an intersectional approach to like how these things happen and the after effects. I did not see that twist coming. Like even up until the very, very end, I was like, bet the actress is Tessa Thompson. I was like, I bet she orchestrated the whole thing just because of the way that they were building it.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:44.482)
I mean...
Becky Mollenkamp (10:54.338)
No. Yeah. Whoa.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:02.318)
I think it's got to something to with her. Yeah. Well, and everyone's looking going like it's the last episode. We've solved the crime and they're still like, yeah. What the, what the, so you know something else must be coming. So then you start trying to piece what it would be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you're trying to piece what can it be now? Because
Taina Brown she/hers (11:05.273)
Yeah, and I was like, I bet it was her the whole time. I bet it was her the whole time.
And there's still like 20, 30 minutes left.
Yeah, and it's only six episodes and it's only six episodes. So every moment counts. And so, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:25.654)
That part, like I started to have some inklings right before the what you think is the big reveal, which is actually only the first reveal. I had some inklings of what that might be. But then when I'm like, now there's there's something's going on here. Now, what is it? And then trying to figure out. And I kept thinking it had to have something to do with why she was gone for a year or something, which really ultimately wasn't what it was. It was this mother. and it also brings speaks to the book does too, though. So the changing of the race doesn't matter on this piece.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:43.495)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:52.782)
But the other piece that I think a lot of people are responding to is as the mom is revealing in this letter to her daughter, hey, I killed all these people for you. She's talking about how the reason she was able to get away with it is also just people don't look at old people. They don't look at women when it comes to serial murders, but old people can walk through life invisible, especially old women, right? Old women are invisible. And I liked that it spoke to that in such a really important
Taina Brown she/hers (12:06.684)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:11.633)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And an old black woman who is not, you know, of a wealthy class in this kind of a town where people have vacation homes and boats and things like that, like no one is paying her any mind whatsoever.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:30.262)
Yeah, she's, well, so good because yes, I know, because then there's that moment where they show even the girl that you're supposed to have empathy for because she was, you know, the fat girl who was made fun of and these these high school mean girls are kind of being mean to her. see her laying on the couch being like throwing trash literally in front of this old black woman to be like.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:49.731)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:52.608)
you're beneath me, take my trash. like that little moment was so perfect and needed to help you remove some of that empathy you had for her being, yeah, and to be like, no. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:54.053)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:00.53)
For her, yeah. Yeah, because she, the point is like they're all villains. It's just to like what degree are they villains? I have mixed feelings about the show because I think it was a smart decision to cast the main female character and her mom as black women.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:14.254)
Okay, go ahead and tell me.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:27.09)
navigating these dynamics in North Georgia. My issues, and I don't know if it's the same in the book because I haven't read the book, my issues are with the plot. Some of it just didn't make any sense to me. was like, this feels really loose. It feels like this part of the plot needs to be tightened up a little bit. And so I...
Becky Mollenkamp (13:40.501)
okay. Yeah. There were issues I had there too.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:51.65)
Well, I guess again that like she's gone for a year. Apparently this is supposed to be huge. Like, why do we never learn anything about that? I guess she's just holed up in her apartment to press, which is OK. But then why make such a thing? I don't know. was that. That part was strange. There was the intentional trying to point the fingers at other people. I almost think we didn't even need that. And it was like with the husband and stuff. I.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:05.083)
thing about it, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:14.585)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like I remember there's one scene he's in the grocery store. He's buying bleach and a hammer. And by that point, by that point, like I had already figured out who Lexi Jones was, who her character, like who she was. And so I was like, okay. But then it was like, it was a total misdirect, but then it was, it just, I didn't feel like it was the best way to misdirect.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:22.028)
Yeah. lot of people had issues with that. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:40.332)
Yeah, there were a lot of those things. my warning you, the reason I really, again, like I think for me, it was six episodes. They weren't really quickly. I thought it was fun. I thought it was easy, but I think for the purposes of the podcast and the reason I thought it might be interesting to talk with centers and OBA is also just that intentionality around changing the race and
Taina Brown she/hers (14:57.445)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:02.254)
where I think this otherwise would have been something that would have been so easily dismissed because of so many of the things you're talking about, because it felt a little campy to me. It was a little like over the top, whatever. I don't think I would have been as interested if it hadn't been because of that very intentional choice to change the race of these women and what that brought to the story. Because I think it have been a bunch of white women. I don't think it would have done anything for me. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:08.987)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:22.488)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:28.943)
It wouldn't have had the same impact. Do you know if the female detective, if she is also a woman of color in the book?
Becky Mollenkamp (15:37.516)
I don't know. See, I need to, I don't know. I don't know. So again.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:39.94)
Because in the show, her last name is Patel. She's an Indian woman. And she's like the assistant detective who is on the case to a white man, which at the end.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:43.244)
Yeah, sure, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:50.83)
Mm-hmm.
What I did read in the book, I did read in the book that she in the book, I think she is a little less argumentative with him and a little less suspicious of him from what I think I read that I believe in the book. She's a little more like idolizing of him than she which that she wears off much more quickly in this where she moves into suspicion much quicker.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:13.153)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you can still see glimpses of that a little bit like in the show, but there are those moments of suspicion. Cause he is shady, he's shady as fuck. Like he fucking punches her in the face at the end. And then they have a moment at the very end and I'm like, is he going to apologize? No, of course he's not going to apologize. A white man just literally punched a white or a non-white woman in the face who is his partner and he's not going to fucking apologize.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:33.494)
No, no, but that's great, right? Because
Becky Mollenkamp (16:40.312)
Right? That's perfect though, because a white man doesn't need, why would a white man apologize? Right? Like I think it's exactly right, even if it's the most annoying thing ever, it's right on. And I think it's very interesting casting an Asian woman again, I don't know if in the book she was also Asian, but Helen, which is a character that is sort of that like, what's the correct terminology here? Help me out, Taina, but like the model Asian citizen sort of thing where.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:51.662)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:06.253)
The model minority.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:07.49)
Yeah, with this overachievement. That is the stereotype that's so often put onto Asian folks in particular, which is like, you're supposed to be exceptionally smart and excel. And they put her in this role where she's showing up in that friend group as like, she's the model student at this smarty pants school. And now not only was she as the student, but now she's running that school as like, know. So it was really an interesting place to make that an Asian character, whether that was or not.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:28.449)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:33.529)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:35.377)
I think there were some things about it. Again, the story itself, I thought it was totally campy, but it's fun.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:41.963)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was, it was. But even Helen, like, because she plays a lesbian, like her character is a lesbian. Yeah, so then there's like, you know, the sexuality aspect. And then Rachel, the one who, yeah, she's bisexual. And then Zoe, the other, huh? There's kink, yeah, there's kink. Then Zoe is...
Becky Mollenkamp (17:48.627)
that's right, I forgot that too. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:55.276)
Well, bisexual.
There's also kink. There's kink and there's also kink that they did. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:07.755)
she's white and she's at the school as well, but she's quote unquote on a payment plan, right? And so she's not as wealthy as like her classmates, even though she has that racial privilege of being white. So there's a lot of like interesting dynamics happening here because even though like Helen is for all intents and purposes, the archetype of the model minority as a lesbian in North Georgia at a Catholic school, like there's still
Becky Mollenkamp (18:16.047)
And...
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:35.31)
It is bucking some of that. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:36.97)
Yeah, there's still some like insecurity and some like identity stuff that's happening there. And so if you see her project that onto other people.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:42.188)
Well, in making Zoe this. And then making Zoe white and she's the one that is fulfilling what is often cast as the black woman's role as a mother, which is this sort of mom who seems right, preferring to go out and be with a banding or children, you know, being not a not a good caretaker, whatever like those. think all of those things in this space, knowing that they made the change, at least around the other characters, feel so intentional.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:53.58)
Yeah. Deadbeat, drunk.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:03.555)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:11.128)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:11.182)
And it just really, there are so many layers of things that speak to these issues that to me make it worth watching and interesting for just noticing all of these. Some of them subtle, some of them in your face where you're like, oh wow, they're really putting it out there.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:17.24)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:27.522)
Yeah, Production-wise, a lot of really smart decisions were made. Do you know if the book takes place in Dahlonega as well, or did they just... okay. That's interesting. That's very interesting.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:36.694)
It does. That I do know it does. Yeah. But again, remembering that I think in the book, at least those two characters are white and maybe all of them for all I know. it does change.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:47.893)
Yeah, yeah. wonder, I was gonna say, I wonder if the author is from that area. And so I just.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:54.444)
I'd be really quick to find out because her name's Alice Feeney. We can find out where is she from? Where is she from? That's one of the first questions when you say where. She is from Brentwood, England. Very interesting that she wrote this book about Georgia. but again, we don't know. I don't know enough about the book to know how much of the book is reflected in the story and how much liberties were taken. Right. But it is interesting to think of a woman, an English woman trying to even decide to write something about something as specific as.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:08.587)
Interesting.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:24.482)
a small town outside of, you know, in rural Georgia.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:28.501)
Yeah, I wonder if she's like vacation there or knows people there or I know there's like there was like a B &B or like a tea house or something that was there. I don't know if it's the list that was owned by a Brit. So don't know if maybe that's her. I don't know, but it's interesting. It felt... Huh?
Becky Mollenkamp (20:33.112)
Maybe.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:40.702)
Love.
The social pieces of it I thought were interesting. The commentary, the social commentary part of it felt interesting. But I don't want to, I want to make sure, because I really want to hear about these other two movies. So I want to make sure we leave plenty of time. So related in my mind is one battle after another. So Alice Feeney, by the way, is a white woman who's British, who wrote the book. Jessica Chastain is a white woman who helped to adapt it. I saw the writers for his and hers and many of them were white. I did see a black woman.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:50.613)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:55.831)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:14.286)
I don't know if that was all of them, so I can't speak to all of that. So it's largely white folks, I believe, who were retelling that story. Obviously they had black actors, but mostly women. And I think they did, not from the story itself, but as far as social commentary, I felt like they did a pretty good job. All right, like there's always room for improvement. I thought they did a pretty good job. Now let's go to one battle.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:37.977)
As someone who's lived in Georgia, I feel like it was quite representative of the culture there. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:42.594)
Great, a cultural lead we're talking about and commentary on that. So now we go to one battle after another, which was written and directed by a white man, Paul Thomas Anderson, and is getting all the accolades, winning all the awards. speaking of tropes, and here's the thing that is a struggle for me and where I want to hear from you so desperately. There are many people, however, most of them are white and many of them are.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:46.86)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:09.102)
PTA fans who are usually white men who love Paul Thomas Anderson movies. He did Boogie Nights. did, what's that? Uh-huh. Magnolia. He's done a lot of movies that people know and many of them are good. But he's a white man. He's married to Maya Rudolph, who is a black woman or she has a black mother or she had a white father, black mother. I love that you're learning these things. Yes, this is so exciting to tell you. Yes, he is married to Maya Rudolph.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:16.456)
He's the one who did Boogie Nights?
Taina Brown she/hers (22:31.361)
He's married to Maya Rudolph?
Taina Brown she/hers (22:36.916)
Interesting. Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:38.402)
which adds another layer, right? So this book or that movie falls into a lot of tropes. Now, the theory is it's satire and meant to write, right? It's meant to use a lot of tropes in a way that is supposed to be commentary, right? I think many people disagree on how well it succeeds at the commentary piece versus just relying on tropes. So.
Specifically, the main character, even though she's, so she's winning all the awards for supporting character, love that, Teyana Taylor? Teyana Taylor. Who's phenomenal, she plays Perfidia, who's like the sort of main character, but she's in the movie very little, she disappears. She's someone who leaves her child, right? She's a black woman, she's a revolutionary. She's out there, one scene that I think is incredibly powerful as far as speaking to the trope is she's out there full pregnant, nine months.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:12.723)
Tiana Taylor.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:34.464)
shooting a machine gun, right? With very little regard for what that might mean for her unborn child who's there as part of that very physical experience. She makes the choice to leave her child with her white boyfriend, whatever he is. She's also accused of sexually assaulting a white man, raping a white man, lockjaw. There's just a lot to the tropes.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:35.657)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:01.066)
Is that what made you like, are, I'm, is that what upset you? Is, how do you fall on that? Do you see it as satire? Can a white man do that kind of satire successfully? Just generally? Like, I don't know. I felt like it fell short. Bye.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:16.237)
It fell short in my mind. That's not what upset me, right? Because I think it's important to note that she is this Black woman who is raised by other Black women who have been involved in resistance movements, right? So that's all she knows, one.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:20.565)
Okay, wait a
Becky Mollenkamp (24:39.79)
And her mom, from what I could tell, sort of was like, even, you're not doing enough. Like, that was hardcore. I don't know if it was her mom, the women in her, that were raising her.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:45.703)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and you don't see... I don't remember seeing... In the scenes where they were in their home with these people, I don't remember seeing... There's a scene where after she leaves, the dad, Leo, he's leaving with the baby to protect the child. And it's a bunch of Black women. I don't see any Black men helping there.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:13.454)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:19.177)
Right. So that implies to me.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:20.662)
In the same way they end up taking that daughter when she's older to another place where it's all black women. Yeah, exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:27.123)
Right, it's all black women doing the work, yeah. So that implies to me that she...
wasn't around black men at home, which I don't know how much that matters. I'm just...
Becky Mollenkamp (25:40.172)
And she also wasn't exposed to, it doesn't seem she was necessarily exposed to a nurturing environment that we often think of for mother. Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:47.531)
Right, it's all about fighting. It's all about fighting. And so now she has this baby that she's expected to nurture. And how do you do that when your whole life has been a fight? And she has postpartum. Right? That was very clear to me that she was dealing with some heavy postpartum and that was the trigger for her leaving. so, and that wasn't...
Becky Mollenkamp (26:02.03)
Clear.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:08.654)
Yeah, they did.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:17.612)
Again, that wasn't what upset me. What upset me was like at the end of the movie, you have this 17 year old biracial girl.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:26.434)
this sexual sexualization with the okay okay I'm so excited okay I keep interrupting
Taina Brown she/hers (26:30.379)
No, not even that, not even that. He, at the very, very end, her dad, a fucking adult male, is at home smoking weed and she's going to a protest. And it's like, what's wrong with this picture? Like, this was his life that he chose to raise his child in and now he...
Becky Mollenkamp (26:44.686)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:54.766)
broader into.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:57.707)
can't do anything but sit at home and smoke weed and be a nervous wreck for the entirety of the two hours of the movie or most of the two hours of the movie, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (27:07.362)
I found him absolutely unbearable to watch. It was so annoying. My husband and I both were just like, he's so annoying. And maybe it's, but maybe he's meant to be. And I don't know, that's part of it. It's like, okay, so maybe that also speaks to, is that part of the commentary that the white man then sits around and does nothing and is expecting yet again for the black women to continue to do all the work? But is that commentary or is it falling short?
Taina Brown she/hers (27:28.86)
a woman, a Black woman to do the work. Yeah. Yeah, for me it felt like...
Becky Mollenkamp (27:36.462)
I don't know, as I'm talking about it sometimes I'm like, well then maybe it is better than I think it is. And then I'm like, something about it just doesn't feel right.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:47.644)
And she saved herself. The child saved herself, like ends up saving herself at the end. So that to me was just like, yeah, of course, it's always up to black women to just do the labor and you know, and whatever. And so it...
Becky Mollenkamp (27:49.88)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:00.834)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:05.489)
It felt like after suffering through all of the triggers in the movie to end on that note, it felt fucking disrespectful, honestly. It was like, you're gonna put us through all of that and then at the end, just take us back to where we started. Which, I mean, if you wanna say that that's a commentary on our current, you know.
political landscape, how the world works. Yeah, sure, that's how the world works. But like the whole point of, I think, any kind of artistic endeavor is not necessarily just to point out like what's happening with the world, but also to like provide opportunities for people to see how to create a different world, how to create a better world. Like it's not just, here's a fucking mirror so you can look at everything. It's also like, okay, now how do we build from there? And
I think for something that is supposed to be satirical or commentary, like...
I don't, I will say I don't know enough about that genre to be any kind of, have any kind of expert opinion on whether or not it hit the mark or fell short. But as just a viewer, as a black woman who lives in the fucking United States of America, like it felt disrespectful at the end. And so people just like going on and on about it. I was like, okay, yeah. I mean, it was.
It was well made, like production value, was well made, the acting was incredible, like...
Becky Mollenkamp (29:45.848)
Regina was amazing. Who's getting very little attention, which is too bad. She didn't have a lot, but when she showed up, she was. Absolutely.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:48.044)
Yeah, Right, right.
my gosh, she stole the screen. Stole the screen. And Benicio Del Toro, think, his role was amazing, but...
Becky Mollenkamp (30:03.31)
you
I heard many people say I would rather see a movie about that underground railroad sort of situation that he was running than anything else in this movie. Like give us that movie because that looked interesting. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:11.116)
Yes, yes, anything else, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, it just...
Becky Mollenkamp (30:19.778)
Well, speaking of whether we're the right people to talk about this, I think if you're a viewer, you're the right person to talk about it, right? I think we can talk about our experiences. As far as expert opinions, I did listen to, and I'll try to find the link, Feminista Jones, is our Dr. Michelle Taylor. She is, her whole background is on specifically these things. She looks at cinema. She wrote her PhD around portrayals of black women in cinema. I think black mothers specifically.
And she had a lot to say and none of it was positive really about this movie other than particular acting. Like some of these black women did amazing jobs of acting in what they were given. And so I'll try to share some of that for people who want that lens. My thought is I think the reason it's feeling short to me, falls short to me, like whereas his and hers feels like commentary. Like I think it's because it's flipping things on its head in a way inside of his and hers.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:57.169)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:10.928)
It's subversive.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:12.492)
Right. Whereas this feels like it's just relying on the tropes and then turning around saying, well, I they were tropes. So it's commentary. Like I'm I'm I'm exaggerating the tropes. And it's like, and maybe if it was a black woman who was doing that. But I don't think the tropes are exaggerated enough to make it feel like it is intentional. Yeah, it feels like it's just relying on the tropes and then trying to turn around when you get called out and be like.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:19.783)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:29.53)
Yeah, it doesn't feel subversive. It doesn't feel subversive at all.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:38.21)
Well, I know that there are tropes. It's like a commentary about it. And if it is, it doesn't read that way. know, it feels... Because then ultimately, who gets the bulk of the screen time here? It's a white man. It's Leonardo DiCaprio. It feels like it's his story. So if you're trying to tell me you're being subversive and you're flipping things on their head or you're shining a light and you're exaggerating it, then why are we getting his story? Why is he the center of this? This bumbling idiot.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:59.826)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:02.84)
that I have to watch for two hours running around in a fucking robe. My husband and kept saying, take off. Like, why are you not taking off the robe? You're trying to run and get away from people and you've got this robe you're gonna trip over and you're, and everyone can see you cause you look like the dude from that stupid movie. I can't think of right now that my husband, the big Lebowski. I'm just like, take off the robe. I get that was probably part of the look and the satire, but it was just, I don't know. It just fell so short to me where I was just like, I feel like you are just,
Taina Brown she/hers (32:08.136)
Why do you still have that robe on?
Becky Mollenkamp (32:32.642)
dishing out one trope after another without any sort of exaggeration of it, without any challenging of it. And then, and you're a white dude doing that. Like, I just think you can't separate the art from the artist in this way to say, well, if it was a black woman, would you feel different? Probably. I probably would feel different.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:54.119)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:55.598)
But I also think she would have handled it differently. I don't think the material would have looked the same. And I think that's the problem because it was in the hands of a white man, whether you're married to a black woman or not, whether you have black kids or not. This feels like that example to me where it's like, people will try to say, but I'm married to a black woman, so I can't be racist. I have black kids, can't Right, I can't be racist. And it's like, that doesn't excuse you delivering something that to me is just dishing out racism. I don't know.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:57.794)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:10.833)
So it's okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:20.249)
Yeah, yeah. The other thing too is like, you know, we were talking about motherhood in his and hers and in, you know, with Tiana's character, Prophi, what's her name? Prophedia.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:31.64)
Prophedia. Prophedia? Apparently he's a big fan of choosing names that have meaning and Prophedia means something that I don't remember what but... Warrior.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:39.761)
Hmm, hmm. You know, and her representation of Black motherhood, you know, in the film, but I think there's also like just like this piece where like the child is having to mother her dad. Like she's taking care of him. She's like getting things. Yeah, yeah. And so it's just, it's interesting to see these depictions of like.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:58.894)
Talking about that generational trauma, right? Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:08.133)
motherhood from like these two different lenses and.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:12.046)
Because I'm here for challenging the belief that motherhood has to look a certain way and that women are supposed to inherently want to be with their children. like that that notion in itself, like I like the idea of challenging it. But why are we using a black woman here to challenge that notion when it's only feeding into beliefs that people already have? Is that where a white woman who abandoned her child to go fight in this revolution or something and was not made to look like she was the hero?
Taina Brown she/hers (34:28.58)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:40.876)
But like, that would be a very different story and one that I might have been like, okay, now that's subversive. That's challenging the norms that we have. But that's not what it looked like. Because I,
Taina Brown she/hers (34:41.233)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:46.757)
Yeah.
No, it's not challenging at all. It's just, as a metaphor, again, it's using a Black body to convey this message. So it feels, you know, to take it back to like Audre Lorde and like uses of the erotic, like it feels pornographic. Like it's this use and disregard for this Black woman's experience and
and her fight and her struggle, not just as a black woman, you know, in the fight and in the struggle, but as a black woman who is struggling with coming to terms of what it means to be a mother in the midst of a fight and a struggle. And how do you bridge the gap between those two things? How do you reconcile those two ideas? Especially when you're wanted, you're married to a white man, right?
And so it's just, yeah, I felt disrespectful. It felt really disrespectful to me.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:51.618)
And then the year old at the end, the hypersexualization, they've got her legs spread bound with this man who's her father, like biological father, in like taunting her, where it feels sexual. And it's like, again, it's this hypersexualization of young black women, which is, not even a trope, it's a reality, but like, is this thing that he's using.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:58.948)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:04.356)
Who's being weird, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:20.27)
But it doesn't feel like it's challenging it in any way. And it's, I don't know. I mean, I haven't really seen interviews with Paul Thomas Anderson. I'd be interested to know how he's, because there's a lot of critique. The accolades are largely for, are coming from white folks who I think, right, inside of, at least inside of the black community that is feminist, that is, you know,
Taina Brown she/hers (36:23.76)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:39.983)
Of course they are.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:49.302)
intersectional that is revolutionary. I don't hear a whole lot of way to go other than like we respect Regina's performance, Teyana's performance, like these women that good except why in this, why in these roles? why not, particularly with Teyana, there's a movie called 1000, shit. Well, anyway, and she's a mother, I'm gonna find the name of it real quick, 1001.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:59.939)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:14.329)
you Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:18.222)
where she plays a mom whose kid is in the foster system and her struggles with that and everything. it's a much more, a, know, Feminista Jones again talks about like, is specifically her area of study as a PhD around depictions of black women and mothering. And she's like, that role should have won her the Oscar, right? Not a role like this that's just feeding into all of the.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:42.031)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:47.534)
beliefs that people have. So, yeah. Which leads us to centers. Let's end there. And I only have time time because I lot, and I can't wait to hear what you have to say. I don't love vampire movies. I don't like scary things. Like the supernatural aspects of it. I get them and they're like, it's not my cup of tea. That said, there is one scene in particular in this movie that for me, like even if I hadn't liked any other parts of the movie and I did, but even if I hadn't, I would have been like that.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:47.617)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:17.184)
almost moved me to tears and it's not about me, it's not about my people, it's not about my experience, it's not about my pain, and I still was moved by it. So can only imagine how people for whom it was actually speaking too directly, it would feel, which is that scene, the dance scene in the dance hall with the generations of people coming through and just, yeah, and the way it speaks to generational trauma and healing was absolutely gorgeous.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:27.885)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:36.578)
and the different music.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:46.38)
handled so I thought so masterfully. The whole movie speaks to a lot of that. And then that scene just is like, it's like in your face speaking to it. And I thought it was really, really, really well done. And again, I felt like it felt very much like you tell me if I'm way off base here, but it felt like a movie that was saying this movie isn't for you. And I'm not even going to apologize that it's not for you. If you enjoy it, great. I'm not.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:59.865)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:11.0)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:14.126)
making it for you. And I liked that about it, right? Like I loved that, that it was like, cause it's confronting and challenging for me as a white person to watch it and be like, this movie is not for me. And I don't think they give a shit cause I'm so used to being so centered. And I thought it was really great. So I really, really, really loved Sinners as somebody who fully expected to not like it because I thought it was going to be scarier. It wasn't scary anyway. Like I thought it was going to be.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:37.068)
It wasn't scary at all. There were a few jump scare moments, but...
Becky Mollenkamp (39:40.972)
I had one really big, my husband laughed at me. He's like, my God, they got you big time. Cause I told him to bet it was only cause I was expecting something different. It was, you know, when, he was locked in the room and we knew he had turned into a vampire and, anyway, but I really, I thought I would, I genuinely didn't think I was going to like it only because of the type of movie it was right. Like this whole vampire thing. And I loved it. So what are your, what's your thoughts on sinners?
Taina Brown she/hers (40:00.279)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:06.531)
Actually, that was one of my least favorite scenes.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:09.656)
Which part? was it too obvious then or something? Maybe I needed that level of obvious.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:13.219)
And again, for me, just goes back to just like, if I get the point of that scene, and I appreciate the point of that scene, I think, I'm not sure if it could have been communicated any differently from the choices that Ryan Coogler made for that particular scene. And so I get that, but it wasn't a scene that...
It felt, that scene felt a little campy to me. But the whole movie is a bit campy, so.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:45.294)
And I feel like going back to his and hers, yeah, because this feels parallel in a way, not at all an execution or whatever. But like, does feel intentionally. I don't know if his and hers was meant to be intentional. That's, I think, maybe the difference. This felt intentionally. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:58.819)
The Sinners felt intentionally campy. Yeah, yeah. And I think that was a choice made to just kind of add a little bit of levity to it because it is a very heavy movie. It could have been more scary than it was. And so I think some of those, like that sense of like camp is there to just kind of help ground it so you don't feel.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:24.686)
Well, I wonder if it also speaks to where I feel like one battle after another falls short, where I think it takes itself too seriously. And then because of that, we end up taking it more seriously and it doesn't feel like commentary. Whereas sinners to me, because it was so sort of over the top, it felt like it felt intentionally. So it did feel more like commentary and almost satire. I know it's not, it probably isn't intentionally satire, but like that degree of like, Hey, if we amp this up to 20, then you're going to.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:38.466)
so surreal.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:52.854)
you're gonna know like we're saying we get this, you know? Whereas one adult another doesn't feel like we're saying we get what we're doing here.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:56.157)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, it felt like, shit, what was I going to say?
Taina Brown she/hers (42:08.226)
with the camp, felt like having a conversation about what was happening in the movie as opposed to just like sitting back and watching. It felt like you were a part of the conversation. There's so many interesting layers to that movie, right? Because we have the main white character who is a vampire, but he's Irish. And...
Becky Mollenkamp (42:18.958)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:35.658)
If you know anything about US history, right? Like, you know that the Irish, they're called the Irish blacks for a reason. Yeah, like they were not considered white because of their immigrant status in the US. And so.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:40.386)
were not right for a very long time. Yeah, they were not right.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:49.006)
Correct. Which is very interesting in this moment to also be thinking about, yes, where we're starting to learn, we're relearning, white people who didn't learn these lessons are starting to quickly relearn that there is hierarchy to whiteness as well.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:56.084)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:03.779)
Yeah, yeah. so what it's interesting, because it's like at some point in the movie, I forgot the character's name, but like he's not, obviously he's a vampire, right? He's malicious, but he like communicates to them. Like he talks to them. He's like, I'm offering you something here. I'm offering you a sense of power, right? But that they will never give you, but if...
Becky Mollenkamp (43:27.362)
what they will never give you, right?
What's Smokin', smokin', thank you, smokin' sack.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:32.416)
Like if, I forgot the twins, their names, but.
Smoke and stack. Smoke and stack, yeah. Yeah. But if they take him up on that offer, they're still under the providence of another white man, right? Regardless of where he fits on the hierarchy of whiteness. A better white man, yeah. So there's all these layers about what it means to be white in the South at this time.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:55.842)
Just the better white one, right? Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:02.926)
Yeah. Well, and then Hailey Steinfeld, the character she plays, who is like, and they say, no, she's part of our family. She's one of us. Even though the white folks are like, wait a minute, isn't she one of us? Because she's straddling that line of being somebody who is, think, I don't remember which of her parents was white, but she had a white parent and a black parent. And I think she had a black mom, didn't she? I feel like it was a black mom. Yeah. But anyway, and
Taina Brown she/hers (44:15.862)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:19.318)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:26.23)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, she had a black mom,
Becky Mollenkamp (44:31.02)
And that added this whole interesting piece to it too. But I love what you just shared. I hadn't really thought about that, but that was really interesting. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:38.577)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think the main takeaway for me, it felt like a film about, obviously about so many different things, but like the one thing that was just glaringly obvious to me was about just like music. Like it felt like a film celebrating not music in and of itself, but like the role that music and artistic.
creative endeavors have played in the history of Black people and how they have like culturally evolved over time and used music and art as a means to like express and like deal with like the trauma that's happening. Because it's part of a guitar that kills the vampire in the end, right? Like it's the music and then you see
Becky Mollenkamp (45:36.59)
and the culture, because I think the music also speaks to this larger thing that I think as a white person, I see from the outside that I often see black folks saying, which is like, I did it for the culture, right? Like there's this experience that think white people, people will say like, what is white culture? And white people will be like, no, like in my mind it's mashed potatoes. Like what's white culture? We don't have that. Whereas there is this like very strong sense of, again, this collectivist feeling of like, I'm not doing this.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:47.487)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:03.745)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:04.696)
For me, doing it for the culture. I'm doing it for my history, my ancestors. These things that think white folks don't experience because we haven't had to to save ourselves in the same way. So yeah, I think that's interesting. It's like the music is also in my mind representative, both of music, then just of culture making and the importance of culture in community.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:14.283)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:23.893)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's part of the culture for sure. And I think it was interesting for him to make some of the main characters, like the Asian family as well. There's a scene in the beginning where it's just like one shot and it moves throughout the entire town from like the different stores that the Asian family owns. And that is my favorite scene in the entire movie. Cause it's just like.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:36.237)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:47.694)
and that it's literally a different side of the street. Like, right? There's the white side of, yeah, and then you see the white side of the street and then the other side of the street, which I think is very interesting, just that sort of metaphor and what it speaks to as well. And the Asian families are important because that's real part of history, right? That that was at that time.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:51.506)
Yes, and it's one shot. One shot.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:03.401)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:07.9)
Yeah, yeah, because they, the Chinese Immigration Act for like building the railroads, like that was a big deal, like in the East Coast, but particularly in the South at that time. And the depiction of, I forgot which twin, the mom, like, because they lose, again, spoilers, they lose a child. Yeah, one of the twins, like, and that's why, that's
Becky Mollenkamp (47:12.718)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:32.344)
We were, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:37.216)
It's implied that that's one of the reasons why they left, right? That that was one of the triggers for them leaving, but him and his partner, they lose a child. And so there's this.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:49.614)
Well, and she goes down this path of spirituality and in different ways of looking spirituality than just correct. And I think he can't accept that sort of like he's more of this like hating God and being angry about it. I there's richness in all of that as well.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:52.841)
Mm-hmm.
Indigenous spirituality, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:04.01)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a scene where like, towards the end, where somebody starts saying the Lord's Prayer. And I just remember sitting in the theater and people were like, yes. And I was like, that's not gonna fucking save them. And it doesn't, it doesn't. Because that is a white man's religion, right? And the Irish man says that, right? Because like the Irish vampire, like.
He's not coming from a lens of Irish Catholicism. He's coming from pagan Irishness. And so he's like, that is a colonial tactic. That's a colonial tool. That's not going to save you from me. It's the Black culture. It's that music, which is rooted, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:41.784)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:47.232)
I say who's the first one that notices? The first one who really understands what's happening is the woman who's grounded in these indigenous practices.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:55.391)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And that blues music, right, that is so prevalent for most of the film, like, comes, that has its roots in like those spirituals that the enslaved would sing on the plantations, which has its roots in Indigenous music from the peoples of Africa, right? So like, again, it's this...
ancestry, this idea of like ancestry and this groundedness in like who you are culturally, not who has been projected onto you by an enslaver or a colonizer or whatever. And so it's just, again, so many layers, like there's the race, the class, the religion, right? Because the main character, like his dad is a preacher in the South. And so he's like,
Becky Mollenkamp (49:53.07)
and wants him to become one. Yeah. Right. The devil's music.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:54.778)
He wants him to become one, but he likes music, right? Which is representative of devil music, which is representative of, you know, this indigenous culture. And so it's, it's like, again, so many layers, so many layers, like such a good job.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:05.71)
Bye.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:09.452)
Yeah, I wouldn't have thought of this until now, but as you're talking about the Chinese American presence in the movie and the person that actually ends up inviting in all the hell that breaks loose. So really the person who costs them so much is the Asian woman. And I wonder if there's something to that as well of like, again, going back to the like,
who you can trust, who really is trust, who we can trust as a culture and who we can't. And I don't know if that was intentional or not, but I am curious. Like we bring her into the fold, we trust her, we trust her until she proves that you can't necessarily still trust her even though she is probably more trustworthy than the white man. Like, you know what I mean? I don't know. And I don't know that was intentional. So I don't mean to bring that in if it's not, but it is intentional.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:52.658)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:56.794)
No, I think it was. think it was because there's also a scene where before her husband gets turned, where he's like, we should stay, we should help. And she's like, this isn't our fight. Like we have to get home to our daughter. And so like, I think because the vampire threatens their daughter, right? And that's what motivates her to just like invite them in. But then she also sacrifices herself, right? To like kill one of the vampires.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:19.918)
She does, but I don't, it felt a little less like at that point, I don't know. don't, that felt like it wasn't she was choosing to sacrifice herself as much as she was just like, stupidly thinking she could fight. I might be wrong. Maybe she was like, I'm going to sacrifice myself, but she's doing it the cost of everyone else.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:33.329)
No, think she was doing it for her daughter. Like I think everything she did was motivated by her love for her daughter. And so I think that speaks to this idea that like, allyship.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:48.642)
only go so far.
Taina Brown she/hers (51:49.821)
For some people, it can only go so far, right? Like that everyone has a line in terms of like...
what they're willing to sacrifice, right, for the greater good or for like, you know, a common goal. And so, and for her, the line was her daughter. Like she just, whether or not that's a choice that we agree with or that we could say is a good choice or a bad choice or ethical or moral or not, like I think, again, this depiction of motherhood, right, that's like, what are you willing to?
Becky Mollenkamp (52:02.135)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:26.877)
put on the line as a mother in this fight, like, are you willing to sacrifice your child or are you going to sacrifice the whole for your child? so, yeah, was a very, very, it.
I have a hard time with campy movies that aren't from the 80s. Like if it's from the 80s, I'm like, sure, it's camp, whatever. It's the 80s. Everything was campy in the 80s.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:48.642)
Me too.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:54.51)
Well, that's where I think vampire to me always just almost feels camp even when it's not because I don't it doesn't feel realistic to me. So it feels so over the top. But but again, it's.
Taina Brown she/hers (52:58.534)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I do love vampire movies. And I do love Ryan Coogler movies. so, so like.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:10.766)
Where do you come down on centers? Do you love it? Do you hate it? Do you like it? But you do not love it?
Taina Brown she/hers (53:14.301)
I did love it, not for the... I loved it for what it represented, not for itself just in general. You know what I mean? Not for its inherent, not that it wasn't over the movie or anything like that, but I the ability to have this type of conversation because I've seen that movie.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:38.22)
which is what I felt about his and hers. Although I think Centers to Me was better than that. I think it does succeed more than that does. Would it be the kind of movie I would ordinarily say that's an Oscar movie? No, probably not because typically for me, when I think about Oscar movies, I think about things that really move me like emotionally, where I don't feel like this movie emotionally for me. And that might be because again, it's not centering my experience. So I fully understand that.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:42.994)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (53:58.834)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:03.047)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:04.6)
But it moves me intellectually and I love that. So on that level, I do think, and when I compare it to what it's getting nominated against and losing against, which is one battle after another, to me, it's night and day, right? I don't see how, I don't know that either of those would be movies that I would ordinarily say. Then again, I don't see a lot of movies anymore. I used to be a big movie person and now I'm more TV. But when you compare the two, it just seems so obvious to me. One, it succeeds really well.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:07.835)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:17.369)
It is.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:27.133)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:34.176)
at what I think they are both trying to do. And I think one falls really hard and both deliver.
Taina Brown she/hers (54:38.204)
Oh yeah, A Sinner's was by far the better creative, subversive pursuit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:46.894)
and just even just on commentary and intellectually, you know? Yeah, and that's what's frustrating because it's, I mean, I love all the memes I keep seeing where black people are sharing of like, just the reactions, even Michael B. Jordan of just sitting there like, again, you know, of course, right? And how it literally proves you work twice as hard for half the results. he played.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:04.924)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:10.812)
Yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (55:12.521)
Some people even say three characters if you count the vampire version of the one character. like three characters and getting nominated and not getting anything. And it is frustrating. But then again, as frustrating as I get, also like, who do we think is awarding things? I'm sure essence of in everything, right? But when you're at the Golden Globes or the Oscars or whatever, they're being chosen by largely white folks.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:28.43)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:38.886)
One, think, I think one battle after another makes them feel a little better because it allows them to continue to believe some of the things they want to believe.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:43.311)
It does.
Taina Brown she/hers (55:48.74)
It's enough for them to say, we see what's happening without having to actually challenge anything or do anything differently, right? It's like, it's that bare minimum. It's that like that. And that's what it felt like. One battle after another felt like the bare minimum.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:03.778)
Because who gets centered? Yeah, the white man gets centered in one battle. Yeah, one battle after another is centering the white man. And it is speaking to, I think, white people. And centers, as I said, like I felt like it intentionally was telling me this is not a movie for you. If you're here, great. If you enjoy it, great. I don't care. And that is confronting and challenging. And if you're a white person watching that, it may then
Taina Brown she/hers (56:24.4)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (56:28.986)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:31.552)
Again, going back to like, it the movie I would award an Oscar because did it move me personally? No, right. But it wasn't meant to. Did it succeed in what it was meant to do? I think so. I think it like I think based on its own rubric of what it was supposed to accomplish, it's a 10 out of 10. Right. Is that the rubric I would say makes it feel like an Oscar movie to me? Probably not. But that's not the point. And that I think is what's unfortunately the problem.
Taina Brown she/hers (56:41.445)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (56:45.125)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (56:50.691)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (56:57.722)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:00.96)
is the people who are judging aren't the people.
Taina Brown she/hers (57:01.443)
Yeah, I mean that brings up another question though about one battle after another then in my mind it's like is it a commentary on the whole likeness of everything that's happening or is it a commentary on white manhood?
Becky Mollenkamp (57:18.83)
And if it's a commentary on white manhood, does it succeed? See, this is where I go back to like, there are parts of me that I can sometimes be swayed to say, maybe it is succeeding in a way, right? Because yeah, there he is just sitting on the couch getting high while the black women are doing all the work. like that feels real and important. And yet there's just some things that doesn't sit right.
Taina Brown she/hers (57:40.059)
And he's also ridiculous. He's also ridiculous, right? And so it's like, this a... I mean, I would say it can be more than one thing, but it's part of what it is, is making fun of white men for their ridiculousness in how they choose to show up in these movements.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:47.79)
Absolutely!
Becky Mollenkamp (58:05.826)
But I think, see again, I think if we took out all of the other parts of it, it feels like if it is doing it, it's doing that at the expense of black folks and that doesn't feel okay. And I think that's the part that doesn't feel okay. Because it doesn't feel like carrying on the joke. You know what I mean? I guess it doesn't feel like, if Leo's in on the joke.
Taina Brown she/hers (58:18.39)
Yeah, I agree. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's still disrespectful. Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (58:32.286)
his character like that part like maybe except the other people there's something about the seriousness that comes into so much of that that doesn't feel like it's in on the joke sorry i have to answer this cut this out later riverside hello
Taina Brown she/hers (58:41.134)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (58:49.304)
Hello?
Becky Mollenkamp (58:55.758)
Okay, it must have been a spam call. Oh shit! No, it's because my headphone was over there. I'm just hoping it's not my kid's school. It's a three, I never get local number calling me, and if I do, I have to worry. Well, now if they call back, I'll answer it. I forgot I had my Bluetooth. Oh, here we go. Hello?
This is...
Becky Mollenkamp (59:24.717)
Yep.
Becky Mollenkamp (59:28.054)
Yep, I'll be there. Anything else or just confirmation?
Okay, yep.
Can't wait.
Becky Mollenkamp (59:43.181)
there.
Becky Mollenkamp (59:47.841)
Nope.
Becky Mollenkamp (59:52.811)
No.
Becky Mollenkamp (59:56.536)
No.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:00:11.982)
Alright, thank you. Alright, YouTube, bye bye. Sorry, they're checking me in for my colonoscopy on Friday. Make sure you do this Riverside. Okay, so I don't think...
Taina Brown she/hers (01:00:16.661)
It's okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:00:23.991)
Yeah. So even if it is commentary on like the ridiculousness of how white men choose to show up in the movement, because even in that first scene in the beginning when he shows up and he's like, you know, it's like, it's like, dude, just get in the fucking car and leave. Like, do you want to get caught? You know, but it's still like you said, at the expense.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:00:36.671)
I know. Inept!
Becky Mollenkamp (01:00:42.35)
He's coming with a red, a little red wagon, like running as obvious as he can be. like it just, I mean, the little red wagon does speak to like, this is a man child. And I do feel like through, he is a man child throughout the whole thing. So yes, I do. OK, maybe his part is successful. And guess why I think that might be because it's a white man who wrote and directed him, right? It wrote and directed that part.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:00:54.466)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:01:08.065)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:01:09.794)
The white man, I think, doesn't do as well at the rest of the parts that aren't about white men. Like, Lockjaw's ridiculous and over the top too. I think as much as I despised him, I think I was meant to, and I think that that was maybe more successful as well. And even Benicio del Toro, not a white man, but a man, that character felt better. It's really, I just don't know that he should be writing Black women.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:01:15.351)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:01:23.865)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:01:29.53)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:01:35.212)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:01:37.198)
I don't know, despite being married to one. I get it, but I think it just continues to prove that doesn't give you a permission slip.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:01:46.164)
License that doesn't give you free license to to exploit the experiences of black people, especially black women and black mothers. Yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (01:01:55.098)
Mary, yeah, being married to a black woman doesn't actually make you a black woman. Right. Yeah. So you don't know. OK, this went long, but it felt good to think. Yeah, it good to talk about it because I've been sitting on this like I want to talk to you about these things and.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:01:59.373)
Yeah, yeah that part
Taina Brown she/hers (01:02:07.298)
Sorry, y'all, we had a lot to say.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:02:15.916)
Are you going to see? I want to tell people Sinners is apparently coming back into the theaters at the end of this month, shortly after this comes out. I think the 27th or 23rd, something like that. So look it up if you haven't seen it yet or you haven't seen it in a theater, which I didn't. And I might be inclined to go see it in the theater because it's a different experience, obviously, than watching it on your TV. So you can look that up and go see it if you want to see it in that full cinematic experience before the Oscars come, even though it will lose at the Oscars. I... Bold prediction!
Taina Brown she/hers (01:02:23.448)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:02:31.308)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:02:43.392)
I don't think it's going to win at the Oscars, which is unfortunate.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:02:45.528)
Yeah, yeah, so...
Becky Mollenkamp (01:02:50.282)
We don't know what we're going talk about next week, but we'll see where the winds blow us. See you then.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:02:54.54)
Yeah.