CR076: Digitalizing Financial Services with Pranati Dave, Everest Group

Off to a slower start than many sectors with Cloud transformation, due to regulation lag, Financial Services is now picking up pace.  With challenger banks moving into the sector and regulations have caught up, so its now not just about moving to Cloud, its about Cloud enabled business growth.
 
This week, Dave, Esmee and Rob talk to Pranati Dave, Practice Director @ Everest Group, about the state of Cloud in FS, highlights from recent Everest research into Enterprise Maturity Models for Microsoft Business Applications and how these models can help accelerate digital change in your organization.

TLDR
00:00 Chase glitch confusion
06:25 Cloud conversation with Pranati Dave
36:20 4 dimensions of Maturity
41:20  Family time!

Resources
'Enterprise Maturity Model for Microsoft Business Applications in Financial Services'
https://www2.everestgrp.com/reportaction/EGR-2024-31-V-6490/Marketing
https://www.capgemini.com/insights/research-library/enterprise-maturity-model-for-microsoft-business-applications-in-fs/

Guest
Pranati Goswami Dave: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pranati-dave/

Hosts
Dave Chapman: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chapmandr/
Esmee van de Giessen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/esmeevandegiessen/
Rob Kernahan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-kernahan/

Production
Marcel van der Burg: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcel-vd-burg/
Dave Chapman: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chapmandr/

 Sound
Ben Corbett: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ben-corbett-3b6a11135/
Louis Corbett:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/louis-corbett-087250264/

'Cloud Realities' is an original podcast from Capgemini

Creators and Guests

Host

Dave Chapman

Chief Cloud Evangelist with nearly 30 years of global experience in strategic development, transformation, program delivery, and operations, I bring a wealth of expertise to the world of cloud innovation. In addition to my professional expertise, I’m the creator and main host of the Cloud Realities podcast, where we explore the transformative power of cloud technology.

Host

Esmee van de Giessen

Principal Consultant Enterprise Transformation and Cloud Realities podcast host, bridges gaps to drive impactful change. With expertise in agile, value delivery, culture, and user adoption, she empowers teams and leaders to ensure technology enhances agility, resilience, and sustainable growth across ecosystems.

Host

Rob Kernahan

VP Chief Architect for Cloud and Cloud Realities podcast host, drives digital transformation by combining deep technical expertise with exceptional client engagement. Passionate about high-performance cultures, he leverages cloud and modern operating models to create low-friction, high-velocity environments that fuel business growth and empower people to thrive.

Producer

Marcel van der Burg

VP Global Marketing and producer of the Cloud Realities podcast, is a strategic marketing leader with 33+ years of experience. He drives global cloud marketing strategies, leveraging creativity, multi-channel expertise, and problem-solving to deliver impactful business growth in complex environments.

What is Cloud Realities?

Exploring the practical and exciting alternate realities that can be unleashed through cloud driven transformation and cloud native living and working.

Each episode, our hosts Dave, Esmee & Rob talk to Cloud leaders and practitioners to understand how previously untapped business value can be released, how to deal with the challenges and risks that come with bold ventures and how does human experience factor into all of this?

They cover Intelligent Industry, Customer Experience, Sustainability, AI, Data and Insight, Cyber, Cost, Leadership, Talent and, of course, Tech.

Together, Dave, Esmee & Rob have over 80 years of cloud and transformation experience and act as our guides though a new reality each week.

Web - https://www.capgemini.com/insights/research-library/cloud-realities-podcast/
Email - [e-mail]

CR076: Digitalising Financial services with Pranati Dave, Everest Group

Marcel, have you, uh, have you put down the, uh, the Pina Colada? You all ready to go? Yep, ready to go here, ready. From Mission Control over there in the Caribbean. Mission Control from the Caribbean. Good job if you can get it, isn't it?
Welcome to Cloud Realities, an original podcast from Capgemini. This week is a conversation show in the world of financial services. We are going to dig into the state of digital in financial services and reflect on a new report from Everest and about the use of Microsoft technologies and the maturation model I think we'll all find useful.
I'm Dave Chapman. And I'm Rob Kernahan. And unfortunately, Esmee is not with us this week, but I am delighted to say that we have with us, Pranati Dave, Practice Director at the Everest Group. Pranati , how are you today and whereabouts in the world are you? Hey, hi Dave. Um, you know, glad to be here on the podcast today.
Um, I am based out of India, our, our India headquarters are in Gurgaon, so I'm based out of our Gurgaon location. Great. Wonderful. And it's great to see you. What's the weather like there today? Uh, yeah, at the moment it's, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's quite heavenly, it's, it's, uh, you know, it's somewhere between 24 to 28 degrees C, uh, you know, light drizzle and, uh, really, you know, very breezy..
That's sort of a sweet spot, isn't it? That 25 degree mark, like, just about, just about perfect. With a subtle breeze behind it. Exactly, a little gentle breeze, maybe a little mist every now and again. Nice, nice, nice way to start the show. Nice time of year. Robert, within that beautiful setting What are you confused about?
Uh, did you see, I mean, we're doing a financial services theme this week. So one of the things that, that struck me is the social media fury that created around the, the chase glitch. Did you hear about this? The chase glitch where somebody on social media discovered what they thought was the really good loophole, which was I write a check to myself.
I put it into my bank accounts. It's. Instantly credited to my bank account before the check clears, I then withdraw all the money and try to close my account, thinking I've got away with the world's greatest ruse and made lots of free money. However, this, this then went nuts on social media and everybody thought, Oh, I can get free money and like loads of people went and did it.
And then somebody pointed out that that is in fact check fraud or called kiting and in fact there was a film about it called catch me if you can with Leonardo DiCaprio and Tom Hanks where he basically did all this stuff and what I'm confused about is why everybody thought this was a thing they can do and these people were using their own bank accounts with their own names with their identity to commit fraud, check fraud. And so it's now gone all legal in the States. There's loads of issues, all the backlash is going on, but it was like this person put on social media that they did it. And then loads of people just copied it without thinking, is this legal? And it's not. And I'm so confused about how people thought that they could do this, redraw tens of thousands of pounds of money and think they got away with the world's greatest ruse.
And I'm like, couple of things on that though. Right. But first of all, there's no new ideas. Exactly. Positioned as a brand new idea, but literally so old they've made films about it. And then secondly, isn't that more about, isn't that more like social media hysteria? Well, but the best part was these people, other than using their own bank account to commit fraud, then posted on social media that they had committed fraud.
And it's like, so you've gone and committed fraud and then told the world that you've committed fraud and you think you're clever. And I was just this, and now what is not so. It's a little bit funny as these people are now posting on social media because their bank accounts have been frozen, their financial future has been wrecked, their, you know, it's gone legal and all this sort of stuff.
And they're all now distressed. And I'm just, I'm just thinking, have we got to a point in society where somebody doesn't stop and think, is this legal? I don't know. That's the bit that I just find it absolutely outstandingly amazing that this was a thing that happened. I think we have got to that point in society, haven't we?
I wonder what the demographic was of people doing that. Do you have a sense of it? I was definitely, uh, I think the younger generation seems to be, uh, the thing, but they thought it was some weird technical glitch. You know what, let's examine, let's examine, uh, some customer experience stuff here that we may well come onto as we get into the deeper conversation with Pronunciation Witches.
Would you have done that, do you think, if you were going in to a bricks and mortar situation and having to face off against a human, e. g. It feels like in the traditional sense you are robbing a bank versus having the abstraction of the digital layer sitting in between you which then becomes more like cybercrime and you know, I don't know, does that feel less impactful than the physical experience of robbing a bank?
I'm not interacting with a human therefore it must be. Okay, no, sorry, it's still kiting and check fraud and you can go to jail for a very long time for doing it. Rob, when you went through that period of robbing banks, did you feel it was easier doing it in person? I did it old school. Or cyber? Yeah, I did it old school.
I did it old school, went in and did the job properly. No, but I just, this story will fold out for many months and it'll hit the news again and we'll see what happens to these individuals, but there's so many of them, I wonder what the authorities eat. gonna do? Because you can't, I mean it is, it is quite serious fraud, but you also get this, you know, it's personal responsibility argument, isn't it?
Can you just go, our social media told me to do it, so I went and did it? That's the, that's the, the algorithm's got us again, basically. Yeah, yeah, I think this goes down in, in, along the lines of, like, everybody went and brought prime drinks and, you know, everybody goes, you know, mad for influencer, you know, advertised restaurants and, you know, kind of a level of.
Hype and hysteria seems to be very straightforward to whip up these days. I think that that isn't Regulated or governed in the way that say tv advertising would have been no Yeah, I think it's just I think there'll be a lot of very regretful people and there'll be stories to tell for for let's come Well, there we go Now let's move on to our main subject of the day where we're going to deep dive Into the world of financial services and as a background to that we're going to use the Everest Capgemini You recent report called Enterprise Maturity Model for Microsoft Business Applications in Financial Services.
Let's start with a little bit of context before we delve into the new report itself. Financial services, a tricky sector in terms of digital transformation on one hand because of aspects like regulation and data privacy and it's probably one of the most complex spaces to But on the other hand, an industry that's got You know, a great deal of challenger digital companies coming into it, which are creating some aspect of disruption within financial services.
Maybe if you can just take us through by way of setting the scene, what your read on financial services as a sector is and what the challenges are and what the current state is today. Yeah. So, so David, I think you, you put it very rightly that, uh, you know, the sector itself is, it's a very challenging sector.
Why me say so, you know, it's, it's. Firstly, you know, if you're in the field of money, things, if they go wrong, they don't go wrong, you know, they really go wrong very bad. So, you know, there is this gamut of regulations, there is this gamut of complexity within the processes, you know, it's not just that they are doing banking, they are doing banking, they do, you know, they do lending.
Uh, within banking, uh, you know, the, the industry is also looking at, uh, insurance as, as, as an area also. So all of this makes it extremely complex. The other piece is that, you know, uh, if you look at the consumer demand themes, they are looking at things around personalization. How do I make sure that, uh, you know, What I get is extremely personalized to my context.
You know, I, I am a 60 year old. I'm looking at retiring. Uh, my personal financial goals are extremely different from, you know, what, what a 40 or 30 year old may have. So all of this, uh, requires investments in experience, investment in data, uh, you know, so the entire construct. Becomes very, very challenging.
Plus, if you look at it, it's not that the industry has not made strides and investments. You know, if you look at the kind of investments they've made on cloud, or, you know, if you compare it with the other industries, they have been way, way ahead. It's just that, uh, the demand, the need, And it's going to dig into two areas that you just, you just plucked out there.
The first being customer expectation. And, and I agree that there is a big difference in demographic expectation. I would suggest, you know, particularly in the age demographic, you know, what my parents might want and expect from a bank, which actually feels like solidity. Going into a brick and mortar location on the high street, having a conversation with a human feels good to them when they're talking about, you know, finances and their own financial health.
Yet, you know, my generation and then the younger generations actually probably want more like convenience, but all of that comes with a kind of an implicit trust requirement, right? Yeah, yeah. So again, you know, if you feel, you know, the regulations are also aligning and keeping in mind that consent and trust are crucial.
If you look at the, you know, the UK market itself, the UK market itself, uh, they brought about these regulations around embedded finance and open finance. What that essentially means is you're opening up the financial services data to, uh, some of the smaller firms. The regulators had this in mind that, you know, let's not, let's try to, you know, reduce the monopoly within the financial services space.
Let's, let's allow, you know, some of the, you know, smaller. Fintechs to operate as well, as well as. expand the reach of financial services to, you know, uh, to different, different types of consumers. That's been a helpful stance, hasn't it? Because the fintech challenges have done a good job at constructively disrupting the industry, I think, and kind of accelerating digital progress.
Although I do think there is a massive generational gap between the banks that you know, the older generations use versus the I'm just getting into the banking sector. Therefore, I might select, uh, uh, you know, a challenger bank or a startup as opposed to go with a more traditional bank. And I do think there is a variation there that, uh, I see definitely.
And if you think if you're, if you've got all your finances within one institution or a couple, then it's very, you know, it is quite a wrench to move as well. So there has to be a really good value prop from these challenger banks that are going to get me to shift across, I think. Yeah. So, so, you know, again, you know, if you look at, if you look at the landscape as such, um, I believe that, uh, you know, and, and that's what the research is also suggesting that challenger banks, uh, when we look at it, you know, they're, they're, they're good when it comes to the technology adoption, what they need is that, you know, that customer base.
And that's why, uh, sort of an ecosystem collaboration makes sense that, you know, they, if they collaborate with the larger ones, they are also, you know, they're giving technology, uh, to the, to the larger banks. And at the same time, they're getting that kind of a consumer base. And those sorts of collaborations can help deal with the elder demographic, like say Robert's representing here, that prefer to go into the bricks and mortar, you know, and make their transaction with a human, right, Robert?
Yes, Dave. Are you suggesting that I'm fastidious and stuck in my ways and like my traditional way of life? I'm just, I'm just suggesting that you're in, you're representing for your demographic and we all enjoy it, Rob. So there was a long conversation I had that reminds me of the types of attitude though, where it was, uh, this, this individual who shall remain nameless, my father in law, who has been with his broadband supplier forever and a day.
And I just said, you need to change. This one's much better. You'll get a cheaper price. It's much faster. It's better quality of service. You can take everything with you. And he's dogmatically stuck in the world of, no, I'm not going to change. And when you query it, it's as simple as I've been with them for a very long time and I don't want to change.
There's a huge loyalty associated with that as well. And even though you present a much better case, like dramatically better, you'll save money, get better service, you know, um, It's stuck. And I think that that plays right across, uh, sort of an institution's play to that as well. I think the traditional banks, like they, they have that captive audience and they know that it's very difficult for people to shift.
Well, I, I mean, you know, I, I have the same bank account that I opened when I started at university. And, and, and it's still like the, the address that I put for my bank is like Salford University campus branch. Bank and sort code is still, it literally is. Anyway, moving on. I want to touch on the other important point that you raised, uh, Pranati in your sort of.
take on this on the current state, which was the progress that's been made in cloud. Now, my read on it and do, and do disagree with me if this is wrong, is that financial services were slow to start compared to some of the other sectors. And that was for good reason. Some of the trust and risk and regulation aspect that we've already touched on was very live in them not being able to go.
So even, even organizations that kind of wanted to move the cloud. And I'm talking predominantly here, the. More traditional, longer standing institutions of which Rob is a customer and has been a valid customer now for 35, 40 years, I think, Rob. Um, those sorts of organizations, however, over the last five years have really started a significant momentum.
What changed and how do you read that acceleration, Pranati ? And yeah, that that's a very, very good question. So, you know, let me, let me talk about three factors that have caused the shift within the financial services industry. One is, uh, you know, the kind of, uh, push that is coming from consumers itself, consumers, investors, and we spoke about hyper personalization.
We spoke about things such as, uh, you know, making, uh, you know, uh, making the experience. Uh, very, very easy, you know, the ease of experience, you know, as you just mentioned Dave, that, you know, you are still holding that bank account. that you were holding, you know, quite some time back, you know, way back when you were at college.
So what's really That's eight or nine years ago now. No, Dave, Dave, let's correct it for the audience. Velociraptors were still roaming the earth when you went to university. So, so, so, you know, net of it, uh, you know, people generally, if you've chosen a certain bank account, they're, uh, or, or you've chosen a bank, you know, bank for yourself, you will Most likely not shift out of it.
It could be that, you know, you might have, uh, you know, another, you might open an account in some other, some other, uh, bank where you get that kind of a service. So, so, so that switch is not that easy. Uh, hence the growth for any banking financial services enterprise comes from a newer, newer customer. How do you get that to your customer if you don't create that kind of an experience, that kind of a pull for that, uh, you know, for that audience?
So all of the Millennials, the Gen Zs, they are creating, you know, that kind of a push, pull that, you know, financial services firm need to be more agile. They need to operate faster, you know, if it's KYC, I want the KYC to be done in a much, you know, it cannot take days anymore. If, if I need a loan, you know, I want it instantly, you know, if, if it's a, it's a settlement for a, for an insurance claim again, you know, I, I don't want it to be.
That, that's slower, you know, if, if there is something which wherein I can just, you know, share a photo, I can just click a picture and share with you that this is how my car got damaged. And can you process the claim? So that's, that's what they're looking at. That's their, that's where most of, uh, you know, the customer orientation is lying.
The second piece is coming around regulations. There is a push. That regulators have also brought in, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's not that simple, but yes, you know, regulators regimes, they're trying to keep that balance that, you know, at the same time you're pushing for, you're pushing for more and more technology, you need to be cautious.
So, you know, at one point, when we're talking about the whole gen AI, You know, AI construct and at the same time, they're talking about data security that, you know, you're talking about customers interest. You're talking about consent when data sharing happens and last but not the least, uh, you know, the kind of, uh, energy, I believe that came from the FinTech revolution.
They are pushing, uh, you know, the larger traditional banks and financial services firms to, you know, change the way they operate. So I think these are the three factors which is creating that kind of, uh, you know, investment for these banks and financial services firms. One of the things that strikes me is in financial services, they've been using IT for a long time.
There's lots of legacy data models. There's lots of complexity in those data models. Obviously the data that they're hosting is protected. There's lots of regulation around it. So, sort of, interest in your view about the management of that complexity and sort of how they can begin to tackle it and, you know, what's the best in class when we think about the approach to IT.
You know, being able to effectively work in this world. Yeah, you're right when you say that. So if you look at data migration, it's a significant challenge, especially when you're transitioning, as you rightly pointed out, you know, legacy data to cloud based platforms, even such as, you know, Dynamics 365. It can be complex, you know, but You need to ensure, uh, firstly, that, you know, the data loss or inconsistency that's avoided, you know, that's, that's something which you need to truncate in the first, very first place.
Then, you know, if you look at Microsoft solutions, uh, they're generally easier to implement versus the competitors, uh, the kind of customization configurations can still pose certain bit of challenge. So you make sure that, uh, you know, you're bringing in the right kind of experts there. User adoption can also be one such.
Issues. So, you know, you need to ensure that your employees, uh, you know, they may resist that change, but, you know, there are established workflows necessitating a very robust chain management strategy. You know, there are effective training programs. Additionally, you know, your concerns over data security, privacy can be sort of, uh, handled by having very robust, uh, you know, cyber security, security constructs in place.
In certain cases, uh, you know, uh, As we have been discussing financial service firms, they prefer keeping data management in house. So I think, I think that's, that's what we can, we can look at. Let's move on to talk about the work that you've just released recently, which is Enterprise Maturity Model for Microsoft Business Applications and Financial Services.
Why don't you set the scene for us? What motivated the report specifically into that space? What were you looking for? Yeah, so, so this, this particular research was a collaborative effort between Everest Group and Capgemini, so, um, the study was looking at assessing, uh, the maturity and impact of Uh, you know, the Microsoft business application and the particular focus was lying on, uh, you know, evaluating what are the current adoption levels of these applications within the FS umbrella, analyzing the key drivers and challenges around some of these implementations.
And finally, what is the roadmap? What is the maturity model of a financial services firm if they want to optimize the use of applications? Such technology, you know, and how do they achieve that best in class performance? So that's that's what was the crux of. Uh, you know, our, our research. And if I'm a financial services organization, what are the big takeaways in it for me?
So like, what's the utility? Yeah, yeah. So, so, you know, financial services firms, they are leveraging, you know, Dynamics 65, Power BI, uh, to automate their workflows. Now, And they have been using this for quite some time now, it's, it's in some of these cases, these are very mature platforms that, uh, you know, that are being leveraged by these financial services firms.
Uh, now they want to understand that when they're using it is, is there, uh, you know, when, when we are utilizing some of these platforms, how is it helping them to You know, uh, to integrate data and generating insights to enhance their decision making capabilities. We just spoke about personalization, you know, then, uh, how is it also motivating them to be more flexible and scalable, you know, in navigating the complex regulatory demands, you know, these, these, they are also looking at, uh, how is it, uh, You know, that Microsoft platform or the different applications that are there, how is it fostering innovation by enabling firms to drive better customer experience, enhance insights, personalization, more and more engagement.
So, uh, and last but not the least, I think the scenario, uh, the overall macro scenario is giving a view that cost efficiency is again, you know, it's paramount. So if, if some of these solutions are. SAS based, you know, there's a SAS model, uh, you know, uh, uh, the able to leverage, uh, the cost efficiency, you know, in a, in a much better manner or not.
So that's, that's what is it making affordable for financial services firms to have that. Yeah, I think, I think the one thing I like about when you sort of look at maturity models is it, if you apply the process, it forces you to think about how your organization is really working and where maybe you should focus your efforts because some people, you know, they go in, they use technology, they're stuck in the day to day, there they are, and then you can sort of zoom out and go, is this actually best in class?
Should we be doing something different? Is there learnings we can take from others? And often these models promote that type of conversation. So they're very useful to use to try and. position yourself in a what should we do next? What's the next best step? And it brings objectivity to the conversation because it's got a little bit structure around it.
And, you know, you know, sometimes you can be over structured in this particular instance. I think just giving you that that viewpoint can be extremely helpful. Yeah, yeah. And then you're right, Rob, when you say that, because, you know, this, this model It's not just a framework. It is actually a strategic tool that is going to help some of these firms pinpoint their current level of maturity and, you know, provide a clear road map.
if you want to advance into the higher stages. So when you're leveraging this model, they can, organizations can actually unlock significant strategic operational, what are the financial advantages, uh, you know, in transforming their overall approach relating to the adoption of, uh, Microsoft Biz Apps. I was going to say, perhaps just set the model out for us and what are the big maturity steps and, and how does it bring in that multi dimensional view that you and Rob were just talking about that.
Yeah, yeah. So, so again, you know, if, if you look at it, there were certain aspects, you know, there were five critical parameters in which we, this model classified, uh, you know, about, about, uh, 100 financial services firms that we analyzed and again, globally analyzed. We looked at the strategic impact. So think of it like how does the adoption of a Microsoft BizApp affects your innovation, your competitive positioning, your business process optimization, even things such as data security, your data driven decision making.
Then we are also looking at the operational impact, which is alluding to. Your operation efficiency, your scalability, your time to market, even, you know, constructs around your overall employee productivity, how, where, where do you stand on that was also, you know, taken into consideration, then there is also a revenue and cost impact.
So how does that, if you, if you're adopting these, these, uh, you know, these platforms, how does it come, uh, contribute to your revenue growth, your cross profit? Then, uh, we are also looking at, uh, the adoption maturity. So, uh, you know, if, if, if you are there in the, in the, uh, Microsoft Biz Apps ecosystem, what are the modules that you have adopted?
Where you are in terms of, uh, you know, the, the, Installation base or the updates. And last but not the least, very critical is what is the satisfaction level? How satisfied are you in terms of the use, the implementation, the customization capabilities? So all of these led us to create a sort of a view categorizing different enterprises into categories.
Three distinct levels, the basic, the intermediate, and the best in class. I think Rob has already read the paper and, you know, he said, he mentioned that, you know, there's a, there's a best in class. Yeah. That would be the first time Rob's done research for this show, Pranati, so it must be a good report.
David, what's with all the meanness today, David? It's like I've done something to, to upset you. Which is probably quite possible, actually, I tend to go through life upsetting people on a regular basis. Well, yeah. Okay. Look at the, look at the, Look at the little flackers you had with Marcel this week.
There's a story that we shall not talk about on this podcast that I think I stressed Marcel out. But it's all resolved, all with the magic of the edit. Through my own hapless ineptitude, I caused Marcel a sleepless night. I didn't even realize it. I'm that good at it. And didn't even realize it. And didn't even realize it.
I just, just blindly just didn't, walked on and. Anyway, back to the report. So the, the three levels, and then you've got. The five steps of maturity and multidimensional maturity. I love the fact that you pushed up into the complex notions of driving business value, which is a rhetoric that comes out so often.
But actually, when you get into day job conversations, it's very rarely being enacted. I wonder at that high end of best in class and high levels of business value being threaded right down to some of the technical implementation. How much, without being indiscreet, and I'm sure it's in the report from a, you know, responses and results and statistics perspective, how many organizations were, were that sophisticated in their leverage of Microsoft technology?
Yeah, so Dave, uh, you know, if, uh, out of the firms that we surveyed, you know, about only 20%, uh, you know, reached that best in class level. So, so it will, it's, it's, that gives us a view that, uh, the room for improvement is huge. Um, you know, furthermore, if you look at the best in class enterprises experiences, uh, you know, they experienced 5%.
You know, about a, you know, one and a half times more greater satisfaction with Microsoft Biz Apps versus their peers. So, you know, if you are in the best in class zone, you are much more satisfied. You're bound to, you know, you're sort of able to generate that kind of a benefit. of leveraging such a platform.
Without putting you on the spot, and this might not have been in the research, so I don't mean to kind of come in at an angle, but I'm just interested in the underlying dynamics of those situations anyway, and it's like it is not discreet to financial services. Or Microsoft tech or this report. It's like it's it's a general thing in my opinion.
But I wonder if you had a view on the organizations that weren't getting into that top 20 percent or maybe to put it more positively, the organizations that are in that top 20%. What were they doing differently? Was it a leadership issue? Was it an investment issue? Was it a tech issue? Or was it something different?
Yeah, yeah. So one thing that we noticed is that these leading enterprises, they are. Uh, they're creating that strategic partnerships with some of these third party providers. So you, you know, you, you do, you realize that you do not have a specialized expertise. Uh, then at the end and you realize that early on and you leverage some of the third party providers to gain that kind of an expertise to drive innovation.
The other is, uh, you know, they do a, they do a comprehensive job when it's, when it comes to. Tracking the KPIs related to business impact, you know, continuous improvement of technology, the overall business results. So you're, you know, you're, you're ensuring that you, you, your KPIs, your OKRs are tracked on a regular basis.
And the last is they're doing change management very, very effectively. So that's a priority for some of the high performing firms. And when they talk about change management, presumably in that top 20%, they're talking about change management very holistically. I think Robert raised the point earlier of like, you don't just whack in an application and expect then your organization to be transformed around it.
There is a. a blast radius that needs to be factored in, in terms of the change. So did a more sophisticated change management approach emerge in those conversations versus, say, some that were outside of that 20%? Yeah, it was definitely a more effective change management construct. You know, in certain cases, they're implementing initiatives to help employees adapt to the newer systems.
So that's very important. You know, you're actually enabling your people Uh, you know, to adopt or to be part of the change that, that you're seeking in certain cases, uh, you know, they've also educated their user bases that, you know, how does the new system look like? So all of that education, you know, that is, is giving a view of how mature that enterprises that, you know, you're, you're actually making sure that all your stakeholders are aligned in, in the big change process.
I think also when we're talking about this sort of stuff and we talk about partnerships and the success of them, it can be very difficult for organizations to know whether they should do it themselves. and have that skill and that skill differentiates them so should be in control of it or where they should partner or where they should maybe rely on outcome based approaches and I still think leadership struggles to understand that balance that you see it's like a pendulum swinging there's this massive we're going to do it all ourselves and oh no we need some help and then it swings back the other way and there's still I still think especially with digital and digital operating models there's this oscillation occurring where people are struggling you in sectors to find the right balance of partnership that works for them, but gives them enough control that they can change effectively and do it in a time frame that is needed.
You raise a great point, and I think to me that, you know, when, and we advocate for this on the show all the time, Rob, the pendulum swing back from large scale outsourcing, when it went back to, like, we're going to insource everything, and we're going to create a Spotify like model, and even though my organization builds, we're You know, kind of vacuum cleaners.
I'm going to try and become like a cutting edge digital organization. And I think there is a realization that actually there needs to be a more tempered view of that, particularly if you want to accelerate your transformation into the world of digital. And, and for me, the key in it is the difference between supplier and partner.
You know, we've, we've used the word partner a couple of times, but I think the collaborative nature of true partnership is a very different dynamic to say, you know, kind of. Third generation outsourcing supplier, isn't it Pranansi? Yeah, yeah. So, so, again, you know, at, at, at Tempris Group, again, you know, we do not use Uh, you know, we stopped using terms such as vendor because that doesn't give, solves the whole purpose.
It does not look at the complete, which as you rightly said, that, you know, if a partner conversation, you know, in certain cases, if you're using the right kind of words, it showcases the right kind of mindset also. You're actually looking at collaboration now, just maybe to bring our conversation to a bit of a close.
Let's talk about adoption sort of in generally. So how can the adoption of the framework that you guys have articulated through all of this research? How can it help an organization accelerate towards a better position than they perhaps are today? So again, you know, if you want to elevate your organization's adoption of Microsoft business apps, you first you need to start with A very comprehensive assessment of where do you stand currently.
So this model is also, you know, there are certain questions, uh, that we ask and we are able to give you a picture that, you know, you, you stand here. Then you sort of scrutinize how effectively these applications are actually integrated in your, uh, Uh, both strategic as well as operational objectives, you know, you move next to creating a very ambitious goals around aligning with these five critical parameters that we just talk about, you know, strategic operational revenue and cost adoptions.
And your satisfaction levels. Now, again, you know, for strategic goals, uh, your aim should be to revolutionize your approach to innovation. You know, how do you, how do you take a customer experience in the, in, you know, in, in, in mind, uh, you know, operationally, you know, you need to target transformative improvements in efficiency, you know, you need to expedite, you're trying to market, boost your employee productivity.
So again, you know, going back to it, that, you know, you need to align to some of these, uh, you know, some of these. The, the five pillars that, that we mentioned, then you on top of that, you're sort of leveraging external partnership and expert collaborations to tackle that complex task, especially around data around security.
And you need to be very precise when you do this because financial services, uh, is all about precision. A lot of it is. riding on precision and security. So, practices adopted by the top tier organizations, they're all focused on driving superior technology transformation and in a very secured environment.
And that's what generates competitive advantage for them. So, net net, you know, you combine your strategic frontier with Foresight with an expert execution. And that's how you're able to position your organization, uh, to not just compete, but you know, you're also leading and redefining the industrial standards.
Robert, Noezma, unfortunately this week, and you have valiantly stepped in and done some research. This could be the second bit of research you've done for the show this week. I know, it's crazy, isn't it? The, um, on a roll. on a roll. Um, on a roll. Like the cheese joke said, why was the cheese so happy? Because it was on a roll.
There you go. So on a, on a sort of maturity point and thinking about it generally, this is a bit of my thinking actually Dave. So I've actually done some thought for the show as well. Have you, have you researched yourself? I've, I wouldn't do that. But the, uh, I've actually, uh, for a while now, when you think about maturity, I've always had this, this view that kind of fits with if you're thinking about, oh, An entity creating an, you know, an outcome or an experience, we should judge it on sort of four dimensions.
So these are my four dimensions and up for discussion if you think they're right or wrong. But the first is. What's your ability to deliver a great experience? So if you can't deliver a great experience, that's bad. So we measure that and we say, what's the experience like? The second is, what's your ability to change?
So how can I deliver change against that experience or that business outcome? So what is your ability to adapt? The third is, what is your ability to manage your dependencies? So all the things I need to trust and make sure are aligned with what I'm doing because I work. potentially within a wider ecosystem.
How good am I managing that? And then the final dimension, not unsurprisingly, is how good am I at managing the technology that underpins my experience or my business outcome? So I think if you think in those very broad terms of those four things, my point is, I think that's where you start with any maturity view to say at the macro level, those are the four that matter if you're trying to deliver that.
experience that outcome as we discuss. And I will say, throw that out to the audience, say it's absolute rubbish Rob, you've got that wrong. Or actually, yeah, broadly aligned, you know. What do you think? I think it broadly aligns. I think it definitely aligns. You know, it's, it's something if, if we can't really, the role of technology itself, you know, if we, if we cannot make things easy, then I don't believe it's going to serve the purpose.
So it has to make your life easy. Yeah, it resonated with me. I was desperately, as you were going through it, I was desperately thinking, is this a Boston grid? Is this a telephone? You and your four box matrix, Dave. It's not a four box matrix. It's four dynamics that you could look at to say, you know, these are things that you can put measurement around to try and understand how mature you are.
I think you need to work on the four box grid articulation, but that aside, that aside, I liked it. I liked it. The bit that resonated with me particularly, and I, and I assume. In this, you've got leadership. So for me, the role of a leader in, in complex transformation and actually Pranati to a certain extent, I think the role of a leader as well as being sort of directional and ensuring that they have the basic, you know, the finances and the hygiene underpinned.
I think one of the big roles a leader plays in complex transformation is simplification and being able to express. direction that is multifaceted, multi party, different technologies, also almost always highly political, and cut a route through that, isn't it? So Rob in, your model, does that fit into your change box?
Yeah, so, so, well, so what I see it as, if I was to take that point, is leadership is a mechanism. That makes those four things work effectively. The ability to deliver great experience, the ability to change, the ability to manage dependencies, the ability to deliver technology effectively. So with poor leadership, those would be low.
And with good leadership dynamics, those would all score much highly because the effectiveness would be in the system. So are we thinking horizontal line, like horizontal box of like underpinning leadership and then towers on top of that? Or are we thinking like, you know, some, some form of, you know, not as elegant as a four box grid articulation with leadership as a backplane.
You can't mash everything into a four box grid, David. All it is is four numbers. You can look at two numbers very simply. Yeah. One to 10, one to 10. That's all you need. You don't need some weird. I see you going right up to 10 as well. I'm not justifying it. Well, maybe 11. Actually, this one goes to 11. Yeah.
As the film is. You keep leadership at the center and you know, these are the four pillars. Yeah, leadership score and then the four outcomes that leadership I think I'm just, I'm going to nick that and add it to the model. Workshop live. Pranati , I'm glad you came. We have delivered some value. Good job.
Good job. We end every episode of this show by asking our guest what they're excited about doing next. And that could be something you've got planned with your family at the weekend, or it could be something in your professional life, or it could be both. Pranati, what are you excited about doing next?
Yeah. So, so now if I look at my current week, it's been a good balance between work and family time. I did spend some quality time with my husband and my little ones and I have two kids. So, so whether it was reading stories to them or playing with toys, simply enjoying their giggles, you know, during our family walk or, you know, play time.
So balancing work and time with toddlers, you know, it's, it's, it's a bit of a juggling act, but you know, it's been a fulfilling week. Now, what I'm looking forward to is we are looking, you know, me and my team, we are looking forward to unfolding what, what are the mid map market banking enterprises, how are they exploring, uh, you know, their challenges.
And how are their needs different from some of the larger organizations? So that's what, uh, my, my energies will lie when, when we, when I look towards the next side of the week. Yeah. I mean, your point out there on, on family time. And legitimately creating that balance really resonates with me. My, my two are getting to the point where they're, you know, they're 13 and 15 now.
So they're, you know, getting to a point where they're a little bit away from being kids and just going into that sort of teenage, teenage mode. And it's still great fun, but I really, I, you know, I really miss those early days. I'm regretful of the time that I didn't spend with them, you know, cause you really don't get it back.
So really applaud you for that. I think intentionally seeking out that time that you can be physically and mentally present with them is just time you'll never get back. Magical stuff. So thank you Pranati for joining us this week for a excellent deep dive into the world of financial services transformation and the important report.
So thank you for your time. And why don't you tell everybody where they can find the report? So the report can be accessed, uh, you know, from the Everest Group website as well as, uh, from, uh, I think from the Capgemini website as well. So, but I think, uh, there are certain keywords that you may have to press in.
It's going to be things around, uh, you know, Microsoft business apps, you know, financial services. I think if you, if you. Get to those words, you will be able to find the report. And for those searching for it, the exact name of the report is? I think it's Enterprise Maturity Model for Microsoft Business Application Services for FS Firms.
Brilliant. Go and have a look at that. Um, I think it, it is for, specifically for the financial services sector, but actually it applies very widely in terms of, in terms of the thinking in it. It's, it's, it's really good stuff. If you would like to discuss any of the topics on this week's show and how they might impact you or your business, please get in touch at [e-mail].
We're on X and LinkedIn and we'd love to hear from you. So feel free to connect and DM if you have any questions on the show for us to tackle. And of course, please rate and subscribe to the podcast. It really helps us improve the show. A huge thanks to Pranati and our sound and editing wizards, Ben and Louis, our producer, Marcel, who's still enjoying a pina colada.
And of course, to all listeners, we'll see you in another reality next week.