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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:06)
Hi Taina.
Taina (00:06)
Hi. I feel like we haven't done this in forever.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:09)
We haven't. Because we have been sharing these wonderful everything is political episodes that we recorded over a series of months to give ourselves a little time off this summer, but also because we really wanted to have the conversations. And now we've been reaping the benefits of that time off. And so we haven't seen each other seen each other as much, which is weird since we see each other every week normally. I we still are seeing each other, but not as often. But we came back because we wanted to sort of put a little end cap.
Taina (00:29)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:37)
on the conversations on this series before we go back to our regularly scheduled programming of us ranting, raving and randomly talking about things. So we thought we would just do a little like, here's where this landed for us and what we what it got us thinking about and that sort of thing. So have I have any thoughts, Taina? Where do you want to start?
Taina (00:46)
Yeah, yeah.
Well,
I was thinking about this last night and I I was thinking it's gonna be I don't well not it I didn't think it would be hard. I was wondering how hard it would be to not talk about current events. 'Cause there's so much happening right now. But but you know, that's another conversation for another day. I'm really enjoying the series and and just like one having the break from like, you know,
Becky Mollenkamp (01:14)
Mm-hmm.
Taina (01:18)
recording every week. Not that I mind seeing you every week to record. I think it's it's like it usually is, except for this summer, obviously, like the one consistent thing in my week. And so it feels really grounding. but but it's been nice to just kind of like have a little bit of br of a breather. but also just kind of look back at the conversations because we recorded them so long ago. Like I think we started like
Becky Mollenkamp (01:21)
Say geez.
Some of them, yeah.
Taina (01:44)
February.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:45)
Yeah.
Taina (01:46)
And so it's like, wow, yeah, we did do that. Like, yeah, that part of the conversation or that little tidbit that so and so said. Yeah, that was that was really good. And so yeah, it's been interesting doing it this way as opposed to our normal format.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:02)
Well, that conversation with Danielle, which is the first one in the series, which is also the first that we recorded, was so long ago. I might January might have been. I don't know, it was forever ago. So that one was interesting just because it's been so long. But honestly, it has sat with me since we had that con I mean, all of them have in their own ways, but just because as you're talking about current events, not that we have to get into current events, because that's fine. We'll we'll we'll be back at that soon. but
Taina (02:08)
That was last year, late last year.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:26)
The world is hard. And dealing with people is hard. And I remember she said something along the lines of something's not my ministry. Like it's not c changing your mind or whatever it was is not my ministry. And I and I'm just like, I don't know. I think ever since that conversation, I've been able to or I've been challenging myself more to
Taina (02:28)
ooh.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:47)
walk away, not engage, not feel like I need to convert everyone or engage in every fight or that, you know, it all falls on my shoulders in some way or that if I don't pret if I don't participate in those conversations, I'm, you know, failing as an ally or whatever it is. And just saying like I don't have to engage for my own mental health. And I can think about where I do want to have those conversations.
Taina (02:48)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:12)
In ways that might actually be productive, you know, because she talked about productive versions of these conversations and when things are heated or when you have disagreement. and so that's been helpful for me, especially like in the online space. I've been less active on threads. Part of that's probably because it's summer, but I do think part of it is also just the I don't need to engage with every person online, and that's okay. And it's better for my mental health when I don't.
Taina (03:18)
Well Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It it it reminds me of this meme from years ago. before memes were like blew up the way that they are now, before they are the w the way that they are now. But it was like I think it was like a cartoon drawing of like a couple in bed and the wife like
One of the partners, I don't remember which one, was like angrily typing on a keyboard and then the other partner was like, What are you doing? It's late. And they're like, Somebody's wrong on the internet. So, but but no, I I like what you said because you know, that that's something that has also stayed with me. that conversation with Danielle about like how to engage with people. And I think when when there's that feeling of like
Becky Mollenkamp (04:03)
Thanks.
Taina (04:17)
I have to like jump in every time. Like there's no agency in that, right? Because then it's like this external pressure to like you have to do this thing. And choosing to just release yourself from that burden like restores your agency. Cause then you get to choose which conversations you want to be a part of and for how long you want to be a part of them. Like I was DMing with with Marina the other day because there's
Some stuff in the fan fake world. There's always stuff in the fanfic world. But there's been drama and and we were just talking about how hard it is to just like like it's a it's a space generally created for people to just like relax and enjoy, right? It's a hobby space, but then like there's it is drama just kind of cycles through the space and and one thing that we were discussing was like being a part of a
the conversation doesn't mean that you have to sustain the conversation. Like we get to choose when we want to dip in and dip out based on like our circumstances, our capacity, our knowledge, right? Like maybe you don't know enough to be a part of the conversation or to continue the conversation with someone or and so that's something that's that's that's also stuck with me too. It's like, don't I don't have to
Becky Mollenkamp (05:29)
Yeah.
Taina (05:31)
I have to insert myself here. Like I can just like not my circus, not my monkeys.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:35)
I like what you said about the agency because it makes me think of something my husband's always telling my kid, which is when other people if if if you allow other people to get you upset or pull you into stuff, you aren't in control. They are, right? You're allowing them to now control how you show up, to control your feelings, to control your behaviors, because you're not making the choice. You're reacting, right? So that difference between reacting and responding and
Taina (05:51)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:01)
I like that just that reminder too that I don't know just because somebody says something to me on the internet, which just happened, I just posted something on threads about first of all, men just have such the biggest emotions and they're just such babies. Like, my god, so out of control of their emotions. I love how women are hysterical. Men are tested test hysterical, whatever they say about. I posted something about like quit quit nominating and electing men. Like the only thing they should be running is errands.
Taina (06:10)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:29)
I thought it was kind of funny. I mean, thank you. And it's just a joke. And then all these women showed up saying I wouldn't even want them running my errands. Have you seen how they do when they Instacart? And I was like, so then I issued an apology saying, I apologize. I in an in my good girl conditioning made me feel like I still should give them a job and really we should just put them out the pasture. Well, anyway, the men did not like that at all. And I got all these, of course, stupid comments from men. And I just was like, I posted it, I went to bed.
Taina (06:30)
That is funny.
Yeah.
No.
Of course not.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:55)
I didn't even look at it for fourteen, sixteen hours or something, come back to all those comments, and I was just like, block, block, block. I don't have to engage with you, right? Like, I can just put the thing I want to put out, and then I can just like let you have your feelings about it. And I don't have to tend to your feelings. And I don't have to have your feelings then pull me into something. Cause like you said, then I no longer have agency in that. Now this is about you controlling me. And that's also.
Taina (07:09)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:22)
Going back to everything is political. That is also by design, right? That's part of that is that we learned that is part of the control of folks is to use that to pull them in to be like, you owe me something. I don't owe anyone anything, right? So anyway, yeah, I thought that was great. what other conversations have really stuck out for you?
Taina (07:24)
Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
I really, really enjoyed the conversation with Gwen and Erica about just like
Becky Mollenkamp (07:44)
I knew you were gonna say that one. Yeah.
I know.
Taina (07:48)
Things that I've that I knew, right? 'Cause I I've known Erica, like we're we're not like close friends or anything like that, but I know her from the time that I lived in Atlanta and like when I was working like in the nonprofit sector and with philanthropy and stuff. And so so I've I know of her and of her work for years now. gosh, almost ten years now actually. and so
So like I knew all of this stuff. Like it's not like it's information that I didn't know, but just like it's not information that I think about every day. And so just being like quote unquote in the room as like they were talking about like what food waste actually means, like breaking that down. Right. And so like food waste seems like like when you say that, like that language, that that phrase, like it just feels so like abstract.
And so but the way that they like broke it down between like not just what we consume but like the way that our trash is picked up and the way that our trash is handled. Like like it's almost like we went through the entire supply chain, right? Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:48)
Exactly. Well, yeah. That's and that's what it is. Helping people
understand too that that empi entire supply chain is political at all points along it. Cause I thought it was interesting talking about the just the fact that I think we think of trash and like it's sort of this out of sight out of mind. You put it into a bin so you don't have to look at it or smell it. You put it out to the curb and somebody comes along and does something with it and then you can never think about it again, right? It's just like it's a thing that we don't think a lot about. And
Taina (08:57)
No.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:15)
Putting the like and I think because of that we can easily believe that it's also because it's a utility, right? Trash collections of utility along with you know, water and whatever, that we start to especially the more privilege you have, the more I think you start to think those are just universal experiences, right? Like, well, everybody gets power, everybody gets, you know, trash pickup, everybody has water, whatever. And we know the truth is that's not the case. And
Taina (09:32)
Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:40)
And certainly
there are differences in access to all of those thinking of water. Like Flint clearly has had a very different experience with water than I have here and probably that you have there. But we start to think of it as like this universal thing that we all just write our little check to our utility company and we all get the same service. And just the part too, talking about the differences, just even in trash pickup and it depending on where you live, right? And the access that you get to quality care around your trash, but also access to resources.
Taina (09:52)
Well I
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:07)
That ultimately are about preserving all of humanity, like composting and thinking about reducing that waste, which we know contributes to is is the biggest contributor to our environmental impacts. And that that should somehow be different by by air zip code, you know, by by wealth, when ultimately, whether I'm rich or not.
Taina (10:25)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:29)
Your trash affects my future and my trash affects your future. And that just to me is that's speaking to that like the lack of lack of collective thinking and what capitalism does that is so short-sighted. Right. And we see this with education and and I think in all of these political experiences where it's like the haves and have nots, the people who are on the haves side don't understand that that hoarding
Taina (10:31)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:51)
Is also affecting them in the long term, right? They're only seeing the shortcome outcome of like, well, my kid today is getting a better education, and that's all I care about. When on the long term, by denying that education to others or by denying the equal access to composting that would say, like, I'm harming me too, because those people then, if they don't get the education, there's long downstream effects of that that can affect me in the same way. Yeah. Yeah. And I just think
Taina (10:53)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. That affects the entire community. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:17)
It's like it's an interesting little microcosm, this trash that I thought I think there was something about that conversation, probably because of the whole life cycle and just the way that it it's so illuminated, I think, this that that thing I'm talking about here where you can start to see it on everything, right? Where you're like, that's right. There's a reason why access shouldn't be tied to wealth.
Taina (11:31)
Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:41)
And
power listener Nicole Havelka. Hi, Nicole. also shared that episode and talked a lot about it and has since like she was saying, it really sat with her too. And just opening her eyes and thinking about things in new ways. And I think because it was that out of sight, out of mind thing, and realizing that even that, like even that thing that you put out at the bin every week, right? That bin you're putting out of the corner every week, like the something so seemingly innocuous has such deep and downstream effects.
Taina (12:09)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:09)
I just
think yeah, I think it's really great at opening people's eyes. Like I for Nicola did and I that I loved hearing that from her 'cause I was like, yeah, that's I think that's what we wanted the series to do. And so I feel like that episode did such a good job of it.
Taina (12:17)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
It did. It really did. And w I mean, living here in Baltimore, like, you can't really drive anywhere throughout the city without seeing that in action. Like the nicer neighborhoods where there's usually more white residents. they're cleaner because the trash gets picked up fr as, you know, consistently
The way the trash gets picked up is, you know, it's handled with care. Whereas if you go to different parts of the city where you usually have working class or or older residents, people of color, black families, literally there's trash piled up in the street. And people, and it's not like people aren't calling the city to get it picked up.
Like they're calling the city to get it picked up and it's not getting picked up. It will take like weeks for it to get picked up. And in that time, it just continues to pile up. And that that brings to mind I I don't know if this the this the tipping point. This book came out ages ago. So I don't I don't know if if was it the tipping point or was it his other book, Malcolm Gladwell?
I don't remember, but I don't know if this study has been refuted, but basically the idea of like beautification, right? Like there was there's been studies shown that like people who live in spaces that are cared for will in turn care for those spaces, right? And so Yeah, yeah. So if you build a garden in a school and you know, in a in a school on school grounds, like an elementary school, like the students will want to take care of.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:40)
I mean it just seems logical, doesn't it?
Taina (13:52)
Right. And so if you keep the streets clean, the residents will do their part to keep the streets clean. Right. And so, and it's like we fucking pay taxes for this and it's like what what what the hell?
Becky Mollenkamp (14:04)
Well, but then that's where somebody who lives in a nice neighborhood would say, Well, I pay more taxes, right? Because my home's worth a million dollars. So my property taxes obviously are higher. So then my kids should get a better education or I should have the primo, whatever. And I I'm not advocating that response, but I think that is what we get in this in the
Taina (14:20)
That's usually the argument,
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:21)
Yeah, in this individualistic world we live in, it's like, well, if I pay more, I should get more. Versus I understand that by my paying more, I'm helping to make sure that the downstream effects that also affect me long term are going to be positive as well. Right. And I just was as you were talking about the the dirty neighborhoods, quote unquote. I it made me think about that like moralization that we do of people.
Taina (14:35)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:45)
that because so like it's like this catch twenty two right so I live in an area where there isn't trash pickup that's reliable and it's not the high quality and whatever and so trash starts to accumulate so then people start to call that neighborhood the then they start to moralize that as if even though I might be calling right that's the bad neighborhood or those people but even more like those people don't care. See we that's why we don't even give them services because they don't even care, right? Like that same with education. Like
Taina (14:49)
Yeah.
Yeah. It's a bad neighborhood or yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:14)
You're getting a lesser education and then you start to blame the people for having lesser outcomes as if it's because there's something inferior about them without the systemic approach. So another thing you were saying that it made me think to just to talk about a different episode because I was thinking about as you were talking about that of like the beautification effect. And when you feel better about a space, you're more likely to take care of it. It made me think about Daisy Gillespie's episode around clothing, only because it made me think.
Taina (15:23)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:42)
There is some truth too, I think, as I was thinking about myself, of like when I get up and put on an outfit, right? Even if I have nothing. Yeah, like today I actually put on clothes because I had to take my kid to camp in the morning. So and that's okay. Like that's me most days. But I do recognize that I think when I dress in a way that feels good, I am more likely to then treat myself better.
Taina (15:49)
Yeah. Yeah. When I get out of my PJs.
Haven't yet.
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:08)
Throughout the day, I make
healthier choices about what I eat. Not that I'm moralizing food, but just things that are probably better for my health, right? Not good, bad. speaking of Shayna, who we also talked about food. So maybe both of those will be in this discussion. But and I, you know, also just things like when I'm in my office I I I tend to go to my office versus sitting like in my bed or in a comfy chair. And when I'm in my office then, then I'm like, ooh, I want to clean up my environment so that I feel better being here. And like
Taina (16:29)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:35)
It's just like these snowball effects that I think happen. So yeah, and and then I guess the political piece of that is when you have less access to those things. So, like with clothing, if you can't access because of your body size, shape, whatever, you can't access clothing that you do feel good in, right? Then that starts to have those same snowball effects. Or if you live in a food desert where you can't access food that makes your body feel good.
Taina (16:53)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:00)
There's these snowball effects that then people also begin to moralize, right? That it's your personal failing without looking at the systemic reasons about access, which I think so much of these conversations was around access. So anyway, maybe think of both of those episodes, I think, too.
Taina (17:03)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. No, that's that's a good connection point. Yeah. Cause I mean, I usually am just home. Like I don't we don't really go out much and when we do, it's usually like doctor's appointments or running errands and so, but every once in a while I'm like I'm just gonna put some mascara on, you know, some mascara and just some chopstick, right? And that just just that simple act, you know.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:23)
Neither.
Taina (17:38)
I'm like, okay, like I feel like I think it's the intention behind it, right? Like it's not just like it doesn't feel careless, right? Like it it feels like you took the time. Whereas, like, normally if I'm just like running to the store real quick, I'm just like, well, I'll just go in my pajamas, whatever. You know.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:49)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Well, some of it's that agency piece, I think, too, of feeling like I had Yeah. But then that's also where the systemic part gets into it because again, like when I think about clothing or food, if I don't have access to that, where I can where you start to feel like you have less agency and and the food one is less applicable in my life because I
Taina (17:59)
Yeah, yeah, choosing.
And act as you know, you can't choose it for yourself.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:18)
have the privilege to not live in a food desert to be able to although in this economy I think everybody's struggling to access quality food because produce is got i mean it's just so expensive so like it does give me some more glimpses of that but like i on the whole around food we're privileged enough to be able to make to have that agency to make choices that are you know that feel better for us but with clothing just given my body size and shape and things like that like that is more challenging and I will tell you
Taina (18:28)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:45)
And I wonder, maybe some of it is that discussion, right? Like these things that get seeds get planted. Because I spent some money, I probably shouldn't have spent, but I finally decided I'm just gonna get clothing that I feel okay in. Right? Like where I don't and for me what that means is because that unlike Daisy who and and maybe other people too, and there's I think I think we talked a little bit about this of like aesthetics
Taina (18:58)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:08)
I'm not somebody who values beauty as a value so much. And I think it's great for people who do, but it's just not for me. So for me, what I think when I think about clothing and equity and whatever, to me, it's like, do I have access to clothes that I then don't think about my body in? Because so much of clothing makes me feel so aware of my body that then starts to get me into a a spiral of like not feeling good about myself. And I just want clothing where I don't notice my body. That's what feels good to me, is where I'm like not thinking about my body.
Taina (19:10)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:37)
And that means buying clothing that fits and things. And so like I recently just spent more money to go shop at Universal Standard and bought a few things because it's higher quality clothing. One. And I know Daisy is a I think she has done projects with them. because they I think they also like as far as higher quality, I think it's clothing that's made more ethically, maybe not the most ethically, but more ethically than a lot of the stuff I have purchased. Typically I'm a thrift store shopper, which I think is also.
Taina (19:48)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:06)
An more ethical choice, right? Because I'm saving things out of landfills. But it also limits choice and sizing and things. So I was like, so I went to Universal Standard and bought some clothing. And they, what I love about them too, I don't know if you've ever purchased from Universal Standard, but their whole concept is we take the mean of what women actually weigh and what their actual sizes are, and that mean becomes like medium. So like the I by universal standard sizing, I'm like a medium, right? Because I am
Taina (20:06)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Right, right here, right here.
No.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:34)
the
average of what a woman in America is. Everywhere else I'm considered plus size, extra, extra large, whatever, right? Because by beauty fashion standards, I'm big. By American standards of what actual women are, I'm almost a mean point. I'm like
Taina (20:37)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Regular. Regular
dagular.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:54)
I am as regular a degree as I get, apparently, because I am like right in the middle. And that's one thing I like is that it helps to write size in your brain. Instead of feeling like I'm per I'm having to go over way over on this end. So I must be the largest woman in America. And again, not that there's anything wrong that either. But you know, it's like a helping me to write size. No, I'm actually the norm. Like I am not.
Taina (20:56)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. It's a
perspective shift.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:20)
Yeah, which I really appreciate about their approach. And then also just buying clothing that fits and fits really comfortably. Like that just it it's it's nice. It's nice. And it makes a difference in how it makes a difference on whether I want to put on an outfit in the day, you know, instead of being like, no, I'm just gonna stay in my yoga pants, which nothing wrong with that again. But and that's an access issue, right? And and and it's not even it's an access issue, but then there's also that piece of the like reframing of
Taina (21:26)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Thank
you.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:49)
of access. I don't know. Anyway, so people check out Universal Standard because I I I'm a fa I mean it's expensive and that's the problem too. Making clothes ethically and all of that changes the price point, which then alienates or, you know, excludes a whole lot of folks from that experience, which is unfortunate.
Taina (21:52)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Ethically made and high like high quality, like good quality clothing is expensive. And a few years ago I just I I think I decided for myself, I'm like, okay, I I don't shop for clothing very often. But I decided okay, when I do, I'm I w n I'm gonna like spend the extra money to get something that's, you know, quality, that's gonna last longer than like
Becky Mollenkamp (22:11)
Mm-hmm.
Taina (22:29)
the season's trends or whatever. but also that's gonna feel good. That's gonna make me feel good in my body. That's comfortable. And so for me, that has looked like a lot of like natural materials, like trying to stay away from synthetics as much as possible. And and also doing it it's taken a lot of research because like to find brands that
Becky Mollenkamp (22:45)
Mm.
Yeah.
Taina (22:52)
I feel like I can that will consistently deliver, right? That will consistently deliver. And so I've I haven't shopped at Universal Standard, but I have other friends who are in bigger bodies who have and they rave about it. and so again, I don't shop for myself very often. So
Becky Mollenkamp (22:56)
Yeah.
Me either. This shirt for anyone who's
watching is a shirt I bought years ago from probably two years ago, three years ago, that I wear an a ridiculous amount from Universal Standard because Daisy had like shared some sort of discount code or something and I was like, Well let me check it out. And it's high enough quality that I've probably washed the shirt ten thousand times at this point. It's it's
Taina (23:30)
And it still looks good.
And it still looks good.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:31)
it's great, it holds up
whatever. And then these pants are the you can't see them, but like I bought some jeans that from them recently. That was part of my recent purchase and they were not inexpensive. I think I got a discount for like being a new shopper with a new email address. That's one of the benefits of having several email addresses. be a new buyer many times.
Taina (23:49)
Not that
we're encouraging that behavior or anything.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:52)
Well, I mean, listen, if they're willing
to offer the discount, they're willing the that's one of the things I hate about discounting, because it's just like then just offer the discount. But anyway, yeah, and so and I feel I just you know what else I recently did? This has now been more a little longer. We're getting real personal because I'm about to talk about my undies. But I switched to boxers, women's boxers. So they're like not loose boxers, the fit fitted boxers, whatever they call this. Not quite a bullshirt because they're longer.
Taina (24:14)
Yeah, yeah. I know what you're talking about, yeah.
Yeah,
Becky Mollenkamp (24:19)
and
Taina (24:19)
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:19)
they're from a company called Waxer, W-O-X-E-R. and they do a lot of stuff around pride. I don't know enough about the company to say for sure whether they're like ethical or whatever, but they seem pretty cool. But anyway, and I've I've switched, I finally I had bought a couple. I'm like, let me try this. I'm see my husband wearing these things all the time, and he seems so comfy. And I'm like, why am I wearing these things that cut into my legs weird? And like, I just don't like them anyway. and they're made out of like microfiber or something, so they're really super soft, that micromodal stuff. And
Taina (24:39)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:46)
I finally was like, you know what? It was expensive. I replaced all now I only have them. Because I was like, what if I like this? I think part of my problem is I deny myself things all the time too. And I finally was like, yes, I is it expensive? Yeah. But I feel better. And how much is that worth to me to like not to feel comfortable? To feel good. so yeah. Anyway, okay. Enough about my Andes. Mmm.
Taina (24:54)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I I was like that with my hair for a long time, actually.
Like I just would not spend any money on my hair because it just didn't feel like a priority. I didn't feel like it was important enough.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:17)
Yep. Well.
I feel like you're calling me out 'cause I just told you yesterday I had need a haircut. I haven't had a haircut in years for that very like part of its executive functioning, but yes also. Money.
Taina (25:24)
No, no, I'm not, I promise. I totally forgot you said that. I totally forgot.
Yeah, yeah. No, I
mean a and I mean and it and it's it's it's other things too, it's not just hair. Like I used to like when we traveled I'd like, I'll just wear whatever, you know, but like in recent years I'm like, Okay, no, I'm gonna like spend the money to take care of my hair, like go to the salon as regularly as I can to get it done, 'cause I don't have the energy to do it myself all the time. when we travel, I'm like, no, I'm gonna like
Becky Mollenkamp (25:42)
Yeah.
Taina (25:58)
pick out clothes that like feel good, that I feel good in. So when we're out, like I feel like, you know, comfortable when I go to the airport. You know, I'm not gonna like I'm gonna I'm gonna present myself in a way that that I feel good about. And it completely changed the entire the entire experience of travel for me. Like
Becky Mollenkamp (26:04)
Yeah.
And shouldn't we all have access to that?
I mean that's it it that's going back to what we're saying on all of this, right? Like it changes I do think there's these downstream effects from all of this stuff. I I wanna make sure before we run out of time too, because you the one episode that you accidentally was a whole thing is but I don't want you to feel bad. That's not but you weren't there for the Mix Dahlia Bell interview, the comedian, who was part of Hannah Gadsby's
Taina (26:26)
Yeah.
Yeah.
I know. my God. I feel so bad.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:45)
I can't remember what it was called, queer or something. But anyway, yeah, her special and Dahlia Bo was part of that. And we had a great I I really like the conversation. So I was curious if you got a chance to listen to it since you weren't there originally if we if you had any thoughts.
Taina (26:56)
I did listen to it. I yeah, it's gender agenda. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. no, I loved it. I really loved how she talked about her pronoun she. Okay. I really loved how she just talked about her journey to becoming a comedian and how like it wasn't completely intentional. Like she was just
Becky Mollenkamp (26:58)
Are you looking at the name of the special?
There it was, gender agenda. Thank you. It's on I think it's still available on Netflix.
Yes.
Taina (27:22)
fucking trying to survive, you know? And yeah, yeah. And it was just like it really just kind of made me think about like the way that like identity shapes what sometimes sometimes most of the time for a lot of people who are in marginalized communities, right? Like it shapes what we do and and who we become in in such a complex way. Like
Becky Mollenkamp (27:24)
Yeah, that piece of like it saved my life.
Taina (27:45)
Yeah, like I just yeah, like I hadn't ever I I was not expecting to hear that, I think. You know, like I was like, yeah, it'll just be about comedy and what's funny and what's not, you know, and why it's funny and why it's not funny, and then like it it just went there and I was just like, my god, like sometimes these things that like some of us take for granted are just like
Becky Mollenkamp (27:53)
Mm. Yeah.
It's gonna be funny.
Taina (28:10)
They're literally life saving for for someone else. Like you just you never know like what is going to help save somebody's life, or help them cope.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:18)
Right. Which got me thinking right,
it made me think about being on the other side of that equation i as far as privilege and identity going and about where I put my attention. And I think it was see again, some of these things I don't I can't say necessarily it was this conversation, but these kinds of conversations, I started to make a real effort to
Taina (28:29)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:40)
be mindful so much so that I created my own little dashboard for my reading journey because I've really been reading a lot more. I'm at like three. I love a dashboard. I mean listen, I don't know. It's something about my brain. I I I'm a visual, as we've talked about, I'm a visual processor. I'm becoming more and more aware of that. but anyway, so but I wanted to be more mindful about what am where am I putting my attention? Are the authors that I'm reading am I reading more experiences than just my own?
Taina (28:46)
You love your dashboards.
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:07)
All right. And it was illuminating because my dashboard shows me very visually, very clearly that I'm reading like I think of the three almost three hundred books I've read now that I've tracked in the last three years. So I have a log of 300 books that I've and I've been tracking that over a long time, not just in this dashboard. But what I did with this dashboard was went back then and tracked the identity of every author. Where were they born or where are they from?
Taina (29:07)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:31)
do they are they LGBTQ? Is that if I can find that information, are they part of the LGBTQ community? What are they black, white, South Asian, whatever, and woman, man, non-binary or whatever. And so it was illuminating. I've been reading a lot of American authors, which partially is understandable just language wise, right? And yeah, and experience and everything. However
Taina (29:50)
Yeah, yeah. And also just this is where you live, so
Becky Mollenkamp (29:55)
If I'm wanting to be more intentional about understanding experiences beyond my own, I can seek out non-American authors. That's easy to do, right? Also, I was the the reading mostly women, I'm okay with. However, I've only read two authors that identify as non-binary out of 300. So I was like, there's a place where I could actively seek something out. and it was something like I'm at something like 75% white authors.
Taina (30:01)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:21)
And that was like, I re and I really feel like now some of that is because I'm tracking books from a couple of years ago before I had really started to bring more conscious awareness to this. But even with conscious awareness, I was like, wow, that is that is not the ratio I was expecting it to be. So it's just been really good noticing that. And also then noticing where some of my favorite books actually, because when I look at the books that are rated highest.
Taina (30:36)
Hm, hm.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:46)
There's a lot from Nigerian authors. I've discovered I really when I do read Nigerian authors, I tend to really love their work. So that was interesting too, to be like, okay, I'm reading all these American white authors, but in truth, a lot of the books I'm liking the most are coming from Nigeria. So why I want to actively seek out more. But what's interesting about it is every time I go into my Libby app, which is where I find books, when you you have to do work, right? That's the and I think that's what I'm pointing out here with Dahlia. It's just like
Taina (31:01)
Interesting. Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:13)
If you're on the other side of this and you want to support the fact that we need to have other voices represented so they can find their own voice, because our purchasing power, our attention economy, if we aren't on the side of the privilege, not actively making sure that we are uplifting those voices, giving attention to those voices, they will disappear. And the people who most need those voices won't be able to find them. And it is efforting because when I go into Libby,
Taina (31:24)
Yeah, yeah, it matters.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:38)
I'm not getting recommended a lot of Nigerian authors. I'm not getting recommended a lot of queer authors. I'm not getting recommended a lot of non-binary authors. I'm getting recommended a lot of the same stuff. And some of that is in some way logical because the algorithm wants to say, hey, this is what you tend to write, read. So you'll probably like this. And but the problem is that just continues, like you get sucked into this like vortex that you can't get out of.
Taina (31:41)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:04)
Where
then it starts to be like a self-fulfilling prophecy of do I like this or is it because you just keep recommending it? Right. And so I've had to really go out and actively look online and search out and on threads, I'm constantly digging into book threads and finding you know, black folks who are reading books and rec making recommendations because they're more likely to recommend books that I'm not finding in my own feed, right? And going out and searching things of like non-American authors I should be reading and things like that. So just the point out, if you're not on the side of
Taina (32:07)
Yep, yeah, yeah, yeah.
no, I don't know.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:32)
I mean, honestly, whatever identity you have, if you want to see more of that identity, you need to be reading that. But also if you want to be an ally to folks who have different identities, one way to be that ally is to remember that your attention and your dollars, those two things, especially in the world we live in, they're votes. Every time you use those, those are votes for what you believe we need more of in the world. And even if it isn't your experience, that doesn't mean like.
Taina (32:37)
Yeah.
Я
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:58)
I the books I'm reading are not my own experience. First of all, they are universal experiences because we're all human. And so the humaning experience shows up even if I don't share that identity. So there's always something there that I can say, like, I do, even though this isn't my experience, I get it.
Taina (33:06)
Mm-hmm.
You can relate to some part of it.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:13)
Yeah, but also I learn and I create it creates more empathy, it creates more understanding about other identities. And I think that's part of allyship. So I think the Dahlia conversation just was that reminder to me about that too. And and and going beyond just reading also like what you're watching on TV, et cetera. Cause she pointed out like don't just go to your local comedy show and that's like that's not good enough. They're not booking the people. Like find the find the outsider stuff and go to that.
Taina (33:16)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, and and she she said that, right? Like boycott, like the big comedy clubs, like the big shows, 'cause like those it's the same people who are getting like the stages and the accolades and the, you know, the recognition when you have like people from marginalized communities who are also trying to make it in that in that industry who aren't getting enough attention. And so that made me think of of the episode,
on data and just like you know everyone's talking about AI and like one thing you know that somebody said the other day while I when I was like hanging out with some folks was like like AI like language learning models like they're good at like looking back but not looking forward right so like if you when you use those those tools those whatever you want to call them like
they're not necessarily going to give you new information, right? Because they're gonna give you something that's historical, something that's already been said or already been done. And so, and I think this the way that people or the way that AI is presented to us as as co as consumers, as citizens of of the world, right, wherever you live, it's presented as this
blazing futuristic thing, right? This like this light into the future, this journey into the future. And that's not the case, right? Because it it can't actually create anything on its own. It's just scraping historical data and putting something together in an in a new way, maybe, but it's still old information.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:07)
Yeah.
Taina (35:16)
But the yeah, the episode on data with Millie and just how how important data is and like understanding, right? Because like like you said, like you you were a little bit surprised at the at the percentages, right? And the ratio of like non white to white, you know, cis to to non cis or or to non hetero. And so sometimes we have an idea, right? We have a perception that like
Becky Mollenkamp (35:28)
Dash Yeah.
Taina (35:40)
We think certain things are s are one way, but then if we actually look at data, if we actually look at information that has been collected, we're we can be like, that's actually not the case, right? It can be a catalyst for for change and for like creating new solutions and things like that.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:53)
Yeah.
Well but and and I think it's interesting you talk about AI because the piece that I think is important and in and Emily wasn't like I don't know necessarily anti AI but was just like the human involvement in data is important and whether it's AI, which was built by humans, right? So and it has human error and all of that in it or your Yep or your own perceptions, there's these like it's e
Taina (36:07)
Mm-mm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So it has a implicit bias in there.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:23)
The same data could be interpreted a million ways, right? So here's some point being my dashboard or what my data around my reading is a great example of that because again, I could I can look at it, interpret it one way, or I could give it to a machine and it would interpret it another way. And the the point being like when I go to Libby, it's interpreting that same sort of data because it has the historical data on the books that I have checked out of what I've been reading and everything.
Taina (36:45)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:48)
And it's interpreting that data to say, you want more like this. So if there's no human involvement, if there's no interpretation, if we don't leave that room for the nuance of it, yeah, and context, then I'm just gonna get more of the same and it's gonna perpetuate the issues. Whereas if I have the human involvement to say, actually, no, what I'm looking for is less of the same. I want you to challenge me. I want to try something new. But without that, the data just sort of it it starts to make assumptions, right? And so the data is not.
Taina (36:56)
Contact.
Mm-hmm.
no.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:16)
The same data could be interpreted so many different ways, depending on that context. And it's just so important that we think about that, right? And think about how that's showing up in so many things, especially in an algorithmic world that we live in. The things that are being fed to you, that is, it's all data that's creating that, but it's because the data has been programmed to interpret that data in a very specific and biased way. And if we don't want that to perpetuate, then we have to get in.
Taina (37:18)
Yeah.
Mm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:44)
involved. We have to have more of our own involvement in the process and being more intentional about what we want. Whether it in all the places, like just think about data, it shows up everywhere. So yeah, I agree with you. I thought that was great. And then I guess the only other conversation then, I think we've covered them all, is podcasting with Sarah Cater and who gets the mic and who doesn't, which again, I mean, all of these things are related to each other because everything's political. But it was so much about like the access and
Taina (37:55)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:12)
you know, who's and some of that I think is the data because the data is telling the big, you know, Sirius and iHeartRadio and whoever all the big ones are, like, this is what people want. So let's give them more of that. Right? They're using their business decisions are being based on b based on data. But the problem is they don't like the downstream effects of how that data happened and then like funnels up.
Taina (38:24)
And more the same, yeah.
Yes. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:36)
is biased. Right. And so how do we challenge that inside like and the fact that podcasting provides a place where there is still the ability to have some access to change the narrative, to change the conversation, to shape the conversation. I thought was important.
Taina (38:46)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, it's one of the few online spaces that it still that hasn't been like completely taken over.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:59)
Well, I mean, and it's it's getting more and more that it is. The access is there. In the same way social media, in theory, there's still access. So like you have access or a website or whatever. I mean, the on online space, podcasting space, these are places where they're not they don't have the access barriers that like you and I can't just go start a
Taina (39:02)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:19)
TV station on the over air, right? Or we can't go start a radio station over air. You know, the these more historic legacy trying to start a newspaper a printed newspaper would be out of any. I mean, that's just the expense of all of that. So there is like, yeah, so there's this access to a voice. The part that is challenging is the algorithmic decisions are being made by people beyond our control, right? Apple and Spotify and whoever getting to decide what is and will be.
Taina (39:20)
Right, right.
Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely more accessible.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:47)
Right. Like even Libby, which is the local library, and I get they have limited space, but wouldn't wouldn't it be lovely if we lived in a world where when you go into a platform, before it starts its recommendation engine, there was like a quick survey to ask, what do you want? Instead of us assuming we know what you want, what do you want? What you what would you like to hear more of?
Taina (39:59)
Many things, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:07)
What are the kinds of things, the experiences you want to be having here? Do you want us to recommend shows that are already listened to by millions? Would you like to find smaller, newer things? Like, do you want hosts that look like Joe Rogan or you know, hosts that look like Becky and Taina? But that doesn't exist right now. And I hope that maybe that could come. But the problem with that is advertisers don't like that. So
Taina (40:20)
I know. Yeah. No.
No, no, no.
Yeah. It it's funny 'cause like I I've mentioned this before, but you know, we watch crime docs or just, you know, documentaries on Friday nights in our home. Usually it's true crime, sometimes it's not. But like we've been doing it for so long that like the algorithm on all the streaming platforms that we watch, especially on Netflix, like all of our recommendations now are like true crime.
Or like horror thriller movies. And so like over the weekend, I think Sunday night, we were trying to find something to watch and we're like scrolling through Netflix and I'm just like, Where's everything else? Like, where is everything else?
Becky Mollenkamp (40:54)
Yeah.
Right, that needs
to be a place like, Hey, other like you're not in the mood for this tonight. I I know.
Taina (41:07)
No, not even. Like we we we
now have to like go no we now have the task of like changing that by watching other things, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (41:18)
Well, there's agency. Like maybe that's a good place for us to wrap up is going back to where some of I think I feel like we sort of started talking about agency too. And I think these conversations that we had in this series could be either or both discouraging, s upsetting, angering, saddening, a little defeating of like, these systems that we have no control over. But I feel like in almost every conversation there was also this piece that I think we have to hold on to, which is where is the agency? Right? Yes.
Taina (41:32)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:44)
We're up against big giant systems. We're up against people who want to maintain these status quo for all kinds of reasons. But continuing to think about where do I have agency to create change. And I think that is the piece that I find that we ha I like if you wanna have any hope, if you don't want to just crow up in the ball, like that's where you have to latch on to is that part.
Taina (41:51)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, you can choose how to move forward. Like you you get to choose that. You get to choose that. And so, it one one episode we didn't talk about was mental health. And so Yeah, with Dr. Han. But y you know, tied to that agency piece, like one thing that she said that really stuck out to me during the episode was like everyone n deserves and needs like mental health support.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:12)
gosh, that's right, with Dr. Han Ren.
Taina (42:28)
That doesn't have to happen through therapy, right? That doesn't have to happen with a therapist or a psychiatrist or a social worker, right? Like it you we you get to choose how you want to take care of your mental health. and I don't know, that felt really groundbreaking to me because for so long, like that's that's been my thinking, right? Like, well, if I need mental health support, like I have to have a therapist, like have to do this. And and I still, you know, will have a therapist. Like I think that's the best model.
For me to use. But giving people per permission, I think, like to choose for themselves, like how to approach their mental health is really important, especially when we talk about like the healthcare industrial complex and and how all of that works. And so again, just going back to that agency, you get to choose how to move forward, you get to choose how to navigate these issues, right? In a way that's gonna like
Becky Mollenkamp (42:58)
Mm-hmm.
Taina (43:22)
create less harm for you, but also for the community that you're a part of.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:25)
Yeah, yeah.
There's the hope, right? And I love that. thank you for doing the series. I thought it was fantastic. We're talking about maybe another series later. Thank you for anyone who listened and provided any feedback and and hopefully those episodes will stick around for pe I mean they're gonna be there so people can go back and check in on them. but we'll be back to our regular scheduled programming next week where we'll be ranting and raving about who knows what, whatever. So it's our boat. So thank you all. We'll talk to you again soon.
Taina (43:37)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Bye bye.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:53)
Thanks for listening to Messy Liberation. Will you please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen? Taking that moment to do that will really help us reach a wider audience. Thank you so much for your support and for listening today. Until next time.