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Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn, hosted by my parents, Jess and Scott.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
So today's episode is on family values and creating family values and why they're important and some practical ways to set them up.
So
I think before we get started though, maybe this is the wrong way to think about it, but I've always kind of felt like, let's talk about our family values and create like a little constitution for a family.
Sounds very outdated.
But do you have Yeah, I know you're not gonna agree with that.
See, maybe we do disagree.
But in your work with families, have you found that that's something that you work on with them and that it's found to be quite important and helpful?
Absolutely.
But it's not like I'm like what you're saying.
It's not like I'm creating like a family crest of like a constitution, like a document that ex outlines
Not even that.
But there's our mission statement and our values and like all like it doesn't have to be that extreme.
But one thing I do talk to parents about is like
discussing negotiables and non-negotiables off the bat as the parents of the house, right?
Like so what are those things that are gonna be super important?
What do you mean by negotiables and non-negotiables?
Like you can have a dessert after dinner type thing or you're talking about other people.
Like broader than that.
Yeah.
Minute of the details, right?
It's like the broader of like, let's say a non-negotiable is in our house we're not gonna talk about being overweight, being fat, needing to lose weight, like that type of thing, right?
We've agreed on that before our kids even get to that age where that's a thing
And we are going to protect our children from that kind of language.
That's a non-negotiable in our house.
And we agree that both of us are not going to do that.
You're saying as parents.
As parents.
Yeah.
The kids are not involved in this discussion.
before the children are toddlers and non-negotiable for us is we're not spanking our kids.
Like we both agree that that's just not gonna be a path that we go down.
And I think it's really important for parents, especially if they can have those conversations before their kids are of the toddler age, of the like elementary school age.
Even screens, like it's, you know, non-negotiable for us.
Screens are not going to be in the bedroom.
Right?
So it's it's not about like the little details, but it's like what are these core things that as parents
we want to be on the same page about so that when that opportunity comes up, we already know what our decision's gonna be.
Like Isn't that kind of challenging to actually
think about though if you're to that point where your kids are doing the thing like screens, yeah okay that's maybe an obvious one but I feel like there are a lot of other little ones that you don't really think about until you're all of a sudden dealing with it
But I think if you can, so a lot of parents don't do this, but a lot of parents that have actually consumed nurtured first content for a long time, like this is something I teach in the parenting little kids course.
It's something that I've taught for a long time.
So a lot of them have done that.
But then you've you're already in the practice of having those conversations together.
And so that you know when a big thing comes up.
like your 10 year olds like hey I want a phone it's like this isn't something that we're talking about with the 10 year old this is a decision that the parents are making and you're gonna go back to like
Okay, what's negotiable here?
What's non-negotiable?
What do we believe as the parents in this situation?
So I think it's just a good practice of
starting to think about those bigger decisions as parents.
And then the negotiables are things that maybe are a little more fluid or for example
non-negotiables, no screens in the bedroom.
A negotiable might be like, yeah, you can play some Nintendo Switch, for example.
And how much you play might vary day to day, kind of depending on what we're doing, how much outtime
outdoor time you've had, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Like that's more negotiable.
But I do think that having actual conversations about that is important because sometimes that's where parents come up against like
Oh, to me that's non-negotiable.
To you, that's negotiable.
Okay, now we have to talk about this because this is gonna become an issue if we're not on the same page about this.
And often that's punishment, I think, in a lot of the parents that I work with
Oh, okay.
Well, I mean, is that just again a subset of the population that you're seeing because they're coming to a therapy practice?
Aaron Powell I mean I hear about it constantly on Nurture First 2.
That's probably like the biggest thing I hear about is we're not on the same page.
Punishments or discipline.
Okay.
Yeah.
I'm trying to think back to when I mean the the main story that we talk about often is
us driving and we were actually driving past my childhood home and everything and then I was asking you questions about tantrums and all that with our oldest daughter and just kind of
questioning you and pushing again, like some people don't like.
I was pushing you on what you were saying about not punishing and all that.
But I feel like after that conversation we kind of got on the same page.
So I can see that.
But it's not like we were creating a set of
family values.
So do you think there's possibly like a ritual that needs to be put in place to like say review?
I just sounds very businesslike and
I kinda love it.
Like I think because okay, so for us, I'm a therapist.
Even before you were working with me, like I'm constantly thinking about this, constantly thinking about child behavior, right?
I remember being like eighteen years old and making a pact with myself of like I'm never spanking my kids, like
Period.
That's not happening.
This is something I've thought about for a really long time.
But most families, you're busy, you're working, you're raising kids, there's a lot going on, and you're not having those set times to come together and be like
What is our response gonna be when it comes to tantrums?
What are we gonna say when our child says, can I have a phone?
Right?
And so then
when you don't proactively kind of have those conversations thinking about what might come up in your child's life, then when the situation happens, you don't really have a plan and you're just gonna do
whatever feels right to you in that moment.
So I actually do think I love the idea of a family meeting.
Like just like you might review your finances, you might review other things together.
Like, can you talk about discipline?
Can you talk about your values?
It doesn't have to be like this whole big thing, but I actually think for a lot of parents, intentionally building that in is essential to actually having the conversation
So I mean for us we have never I don't think we've ever intentionally built in time to talk about those things.
Right.
But I think it's different because we talk about it all the time.
Yeah, I mean I guess we do it for work.
And then we're inevitably talking about things with the kids too.
So I think it's hard to relate that to our scenario.
Like we're literally on this podcast talking about it every week.
We're talking about it with work.
Like it's just it just to be fair, also we're not it's not like we're writing them down necessarily.
I mean you kind of are in your posts, maybe I guess a little bit, but it's not like I
I'm very on social media very little.
So then I don't think on my heart.
Okay, yuck.
No, but I I agree.
And I don't even think it's for parents that they have to write it down or like make a list or make like a document
It's more like just being intentional about the conversations.
And I do find that when parents, let's say they're having a conversation, they're like, okay, a non-negotiable for me is spanking.
And they both agree
They're maybe both unsure about timeouts or other punishments that they're like spanking we can agree on.
Then when you're in the moment and your child's having a tantrum, you've already agreed.
Spanking's not enough.
Whereas I find a lot of the people I work with or hear from later, it's like they never had those conversations, they don't know.
So the toddler's having a tantrum for the very first time, and then one of them just spanks the toddler without
Ever having thought that was something they were going to do or not do, and then the conversation comes up.
So it yeah, it doesn't have to be a whole th
thing, a whole like business document, but it's just more the intention behind the conversations.
So I mean up to this point you've been talking about just between parents.
But at a certain point you I feel like you have to involve the kids a little bit.
Like I would say our oldest two are probably at our oldest is definitely at the point where she can be involved in that discussion.
And same with our middle our youngest daughter, I she still maybe doesn't understand necessarily the entire conversation, but
She's been involved.
So there's things like discipline where parents talk, but I feel like you wouldn't be involving your kids in that, would you?
No.
So I actually was just writing a post about this because I love this topic of like there are adult conversations and decisions, and then there's family conversations and decisions.
So adult conversations and decisions are things like
discipline, finances, like when they're really young, right?
Things like what we're eating for dinner.
Like I think that should be an adult decision that
maybe you let your kids have some input in, but like you make the final decision around.
But then I think you can talk about broader family values as a family.
So actually I had something that we did this summer.
I don't know if you remember.
I think I did this with the girls where I like read them a story about someone who is being very welcoming.
Yep.
And then I said, okay, so for the month of September, I think it was, or even like maybe for the fall, let's have our word be welcoming and how we can be welcoming
two people, you know, outside.
Wasn't it in August already?
'Cause we were going to a friend's cottage.
I think just after that.
Yeah, I know it was for sure before school started.
Yeah, maybe in
Like August.
So then we were constantly talking about how were we welcoming today?
What did welcoming look like?
And Yeah, what does that mean?
What does it mean?
And and so that was a word that is part of who we are as a family, who we want to be, but it was more like an intention, like let's talk about this for a couple months and
like just model and explain and show this family value of welcoming.
Right.
And then we might do it again and it's a different word.
But I think that was one really nice way for us to teach
Our kids something that we want to instill in them, but have them in on the conversation and then do check-ins like every night at dinner kind of thing of like
How were you welcoming today?
How did someone welcome you?
You know, and like trying to notice it.
I'm gonna assume, just for the sake of our conversation here, that it's important to include children in the discussion.
Why would it be important for them to be included in the discussion on these family matters, these family values?
A few reasons.
So first I like to include kids in the conversations about family values because sometimes kids
Have something to say about a way that they're not feeling valued themselves, or a value that they want that actually reflects something that they need
So I think about some kids I've worked with who let's say their siblings haven't been very kind to them.
And so then sometimes a family value that they might put into the discussion if you're sitting with your kids and being like, hey, let's talk about things that matter to our family.
I wouldn't even say value, I'd say
Let's talk about things that matter to us in our family.
And someone might say, it matters to me that my brother speaks to me nicely.
And then
as a parent you're like, so true, because I know that the brother's been teasing him all the time or whatever.
Right?
So now everyone has a say and you're like, okay, as a family, we are going to work to speak to each other in a kind way, even if we disagree.
We can state what we feel, but we're not gonna be like teasing or rude or sit make comments that are hurtful.
And then it becomes the whole family working together to make that change.
So I think that's a really
good reason to have your child in on the discussion because there might be things that you're not even noticing that are coming up for them or bothering them.
And then the other thing is
You're modeling it as a family, right?
So it's not just you saying, We're gonna be welcoming and like you have to be okay with it.
Yeah, right.
Right.
So it's like
Okay, we all together are gonna be welcoming and then it gives you some accountability too as the parent to be like, how am I gonna model this to my kid?
Like if this is a value, then I o also have to live it out.
And so I like that.
Then you're all working it as
A family towards a common goal, which can lead to bonding and and more family closeness as well.
Yeah.
Well and I
have done a bit of research for this episode and learned something about the self-determination theory, which is important for child's development psychologically.
And what I learned was that the three main pillars of self-determination theory
is autonomy, competence, and relatedness.
And so through the values that you create as a family, including them in that helps them feel that autonomy that they need.
to continue developing and feel like they're their own person because as they get older they're gonna be questioning that more and more and then
sort of through the process you're helping them build their competence by kind of scaffolding and helping them make decisions based on, let's say, the family values that they helped create.
so that they learn skills and then there's like that relatedness piece where that is sort of that welcoming like for us we added welcoming as one of our values or words you love
You love words.
But then that helps them kind of learn how to relate with others and even just the process of us getting together to talk about these things helps them just bond and relate with
each other, all of us as a family.
So I found that interesting.
Like there's actually a name for that where they're starting to self determine.
They're kind of becoming their own little person and trying to make decisions on their own.
And these are how we can help them by
Helping them gain some autonomy, build competence and feel that relatedness with others.
Yeah, I think to bring it back, I I love the relatedness piece, but to bring it back for parents, I think that we can just imagine, because you were saying like
Should you do regular meetings?
What does that look like?
Right.
But I'm picturing like what we did with our daughters, right?
So we read them a story.
We sat down together, read a story, we said, okay, after reading this story, I think a word that matters to us as a family is being welcoming.
Would you guys agree?
Like just to kind of walk a parent through it.
And the kids were like, okay, well what does it really mean?
So then we talked about times like we felt welcomed or that we've welcomed other people and what does that feel like and why does that matter to our family?
We've had those discussions
And then it was like, okay, so as a family, let's make this our goal to be welcoming to others and to notice when we feel welcomed what that feels like.
And let's do that for the next couple months and we'll check in on it regularly
Right.
Well, and then it becomes part of your family meal time.
So at meals, you're like, hey, what was one way you welcomed someone today?
And that relatedness piece that you're saying, now we're working on something.
same team as a family, which is like really beautiful for connecting to each other.
And we're also taking time to notice when our child lives out that value to say, hey, I noticed you were really welcoming, even to your own sibling today
Which like boosts their behavior because now we're noticing the behavior we want to see more of.
And it also helps them in that autonomy piece, what you're saying is like
Whereas before maybe you feel like you kind of have to prompt them, let's say welcoming tell them to do that thing.
Come on, elbow them or whatever, like say hi, you know.
So now they have that on their mind, so they're learning how to do that on their own.
And then what when you were saying scaffolding, basically what that means is like
at first you're really coaching them on how to be welcoming, let's say.
And then slowly as they get more comfortable and they've done it more times and now they know what it looks like, you pull yourself back and they can now do this on their own
And so that's why I personally like instead of just choosing like here's fifty words that define our family, like maybe in a year you go through like three or four
four different values that you have as a family and just focus on one at a time.
Instead of I know a lot of families will have these meetings and they'll choose like, okay, here's like fifty things that we want to describe our family.
And the kids are like, okay, cool, but I don't know what any of them even mean.
So I what is that?
Do people actually do that?
Yeah, like I mean there's lots of family value workbooks, things like that that you can buy where you're like circling words that like describe your values.
I've seen a lot of that.
But my problem with that is even if we did that with our kids, even our eight-year-old I think we'd be like
what do half of these mean?
Like I don't even know what this is.
Whereas like if you're just intentional about once every few months sitting down, be like, what's something that we want to work on together as a family that matters to us?
I think you'll
see a lot more growth and closeness in your family that way.
Yeah, and let's say during times of stress, which is just inevitable as
When are you not stressed when you're a parent?
Well, not necessarily all the time, but if you're in a season of stress, working together on something, having these conversations, I think can be kind of that common ground that you have and a way of connecting that
It's kind of like an oasis in the desert.
I don't know if that's the right way to describe it, but it's kind of like you're consistent, so it can be the place, let's say a meal that you have where you're talking about these things is the place where your values kind of live even though you are
say overall stress as a family or as adults.
Mm-hmm.
It gives you like a Yeah, I love that oasis.
I like the consistency, the ritual of it all.
It's the structure that kids crave, right?
So there's something consistent
amidst all the stress going on in your life.
For sure.
I really love that.
I feel like the way you've been describing the family values though is like you choose one at a time or something.
Which I think makes sense for kids our own children's age.
Yeah.
But does that make sense?
Let's say our kids are now our youngest is thirteen, right?
And
Our oldest is 19.
I feel like you can then select like, hey, as a family, we're gonna have this discussion.
Maybe there'll be some eye rolls from them, because they're teenagers, but having those discussions and then choosing uh
larger set, not necessarily fifty, but let's say you choose five and say like as a family this is what we're trying to achieve together and we come up with those
Together.
Does that not make more sense than just selecting one at a time?
So I think I need to like back it way up here in the Yeah, because I feel like up to this point I feel like it is very haphazard the way you're describing
coming up with f family values and like how they're used and even like your values as a parent for discipline or spanking or whatever.
versus like a value of welcoming that's feels very different.
Okay, so let's back it way up.
First off, I think we should just talk about like what is a family value.
Yep.
Right?
So how would you like I'm curious, how would you define a family value?
Not necessarily just a word, but it's a way that we as a family agree we should act with each other or the way we should
live out life.
That's kind of how I describe so like, let's say for us I feel like one of them is, yeah, welcoming.
But then we could also talk about
how hard work is another one of our values, I would say, that we have.
And we want to make sure that our children also understand that too over time.
Which lo will look different as they get older.
But it's kind of like the way we act and do things throughout life and interact with others and interact with each other.
Yeah, that's kind of where I was thinking too, but I think obviously I love a definition.
I think it's important to start with that
of like I see a value as like the way I interact with the world, the way that I treat others, the way that our family kind of
acts and exists in the world and what matters to us.
So then I think the very first way that we teach family values
has to be through modeling it.
Right.
So you're talking about the teen years.
I think it could be nice to sit down with your teenagers and say these are our family values, respect, hard work, whatever.
But if we haven't been modeling that and they're 16 and we're like
This is our family value.
Like they can be like, okay dad, who cares?
So the most important thing as always is that our children are watching us
to be the model of these values, right?
And that's why I think the very first part is as parents having that conversation, if you can, about like what matters to us.
Right.
And that's why I was starting with the parents at the beginning of the episode too.
Because the way that we act, like you and I, is going to be the biggest indicator of if our children take on our
family values or not, right?
Because we could label words all day, but if we're sort of meaningless in the endingless.
Unless you're actually doing it.
And I've I've heard that from parents where they're like, I told my kid that we value kindness
But then when we uh unpack it a little bit, it's like, well, they're yelling at their kid all the time.
So it's hard for their child to look at the kids.
They're yelling at their kid for being mean to their sibling or something like that.
Right.
So like how can we take on that family value of kindness if
We're not being kind to our kid, right?
So like we are the ultimate model.
How are our kids going to be welcoming if they see us talk badly about people, you know, be dismissive of strangers, you know, all those kind of things?
They're not going to be welcoming
So I think it has to start there, first and foremost, in ourselves.
And so asking ourselves the hard questions of like, what do we value?
And then what do we want to do?
passed down to our kids.
And so we've had those conversations, right?
Of like and maybe it's not a formal sit down between the two of us, but on a car ride or
I mean obviously here it's like okay, we do value hard work for our kids.
Yeah, I would say we have it pretty easy in that this is just a part of the work that we do.
So we're already talking about this, but I'm just thinking for people who don't have that
Yeah.
So maybe this like listening to this episode will be a prompt for you to be like, Oh, let's talk about that.
Like what does matter to us?
And so for us, like a few things that we do try and model to our kids is being welcoming, being kind, being respectful.
in the way we talk, in the way we even like say thank you to someone.
Like I always try and even if let's say I'm picking up a coffee, I really try and model to the kids like
looking at the person serving me coffee, saying thank you, being kind to them, even if I'm in a rush and it's taking a long time, right?
We tried to model being accountable to our mistakes
If someone in the family makes a mistake, it's like, let's just say it, let's just talk it out.
Yep, don't hide it.
Don't hide it.
Like let's just work that out together.
So those are the things that we know and we're trying to model in
discuss with them.
So then I think only from there can you have the conversations when they're little about what I was saying, like with the one word, because we're already modeling all the words to them, all the things that we want.
But now we're more specifically being like, let's talk about welcoming for a few months.
But all the other things, it's not like they're put on the back burner.
We're still modeling
that to them, right?
And then as they get older and they become teenagers, you can have more thorough discussions about
the why behind it.
It's like this is why we value hard work.
This is why we value being accountable for your mistakes and talking about them.
This is why we value honesty.
And you can have those broader discussions
of something that you've already modeled to your kids for many years and it's more likely that they're gonna act that way because that's how they've seen you act.
And then if they act in a way that's not in the family value, right?
Like they're not honest or trust like they're lying to you, then can be like
You know, like help me understand why you lied to me.
You know, it doesn't make sense.
Our family always has valued honesty, but now I'm finding out that you're not telling me something that's true.
So like
Let's try and understand what's happening here.
So then you can bring it back to the values.
But yeah, so I think we have to kind of look at the broader picture and then the conversations are just like one piece, but it has to come from us down to them.
I think that makes sense.
I appreciate going back to the start there because I think that's important for people listening to hear it's a whole process over the lifespan.
Your lifespan really.
Yeah, I think it I mean this is like a common classic parenting issue where it's like, let's have a conversation about our family values and pick a word.
But you have to like look at the whole environment.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah, it really should be say the parent or parents or caregiver
Yeah.
That is thinking about these things first and kind of presenting it to their kids.
Yeah.
So I even think about like my own upbringing.
My parents had a lot of values and things like let's say honesty, but it wasn't like we sat down and were like
Let's talk about honesty for a month.
Like we totally could have, and that would have been great.
But I more so understood that and became honest myself because I just saw it modeled to me.
Right.
And I felt safe to be honest.
So then that's more important than any kind of conversation that you can have, right?
That is an extra that's like really nice.
to have, but it has to start from modeling it first.
Yeah, I think that makes sense.
I mean that's everything you already talk about, right?
Is making sure you model all the things that you want your child to do.
Because you're kind of their developed brain externally for them.
We're setting the blueprint.
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So we've already kind of talked about
this, but do you see that parents will often overfocus on the rules of their values and then miss the relationship part of
that a bit.
So they think it's more about, hey, we're creating a set of rules for a family to follow rather than building that relationship and trying to kind of
approach life in a similar way.
I mean different for each person in the family, but still as a family unit, we're kind of unified in the way we think about things.
Yes.
I think it's very easy.
Like it the honesty example would be a good one, right
Where if like your child lies and be like, we value being honest.
So go to your room because you didn't listen to me.
Or cause you weren't honest with me.
It kind of goes against what you're trying to do, which is create a family environment where they feel safe to be honest with you
Yeah, I know.
But like like the let's think about our household and we create a safe environment, but still sometimes I mean our toddler for sure, but then our preschooler, but then also our kindergartner will lie to us and then kinda hide.
And she'll feel terrible about it.
Even though we've said like just bring it to us.
It's okay.
We're not going to be upset if you tell us something that you did.
Like she broke
Just a piece of cork that we use as a potholder, so for putting pots on the table.
Totally didn't matter.
Yeah.
Yeah, it really didn't matter.
But she actually hid it under a chair and only did we find it after I moved a chair to just re rearrange the room a little bit.
And then she started crying.
We're like, we told you it's okay, you just tell us, it's fine, we'll come up with a resolution together.
But so I think you can still create that environment, but then you still have your child.
lying to you regardless, even though your rule is, hey, we're honest with each other.
So I think that like something I've been trying to really understand about that, like just in our own life.
Because yes, like in theory, like we've totally created the environment where it's like you should be able to tell us anything.
Like we've never got mad at you for telling us the truth, right?
But I think that there's a difference between saying to a child, I'm not gonna get mad at you for the truth
and catching them in a lie and then showing them, hey, you're not in trouble.
Like I wouldn't have been mad at you for telling me this.
Like and actually coaching them through it in that moment.
Because I think
Then we're showing them that we could have handled the honesty.
That didn't happen.
But I think often what happens is like we tell them, you can tell us anything, like tell like come to us with the truth
And then they don't, and then they lie.
And then we catch them in that lie.
And then we have like, why weren't you honest?
Like, you know, we could easily get mad at them, like, why weren't you honest with me?
Like
You should have told me and now they're in trouble for lying.
When in reality, maybe we needed to show them in that moment something like, hey, I could have handled it actually.
I think you said that
to our daughter, like, I actually would have been fine if he told me about this.
Like I just want you to know that.
It wouldn't have been a big deal.
Yeah.
Like it's totally fine.
I could have handled the truth.
Like next time, like just be honest with me.
It's not a big deal if you broke this thing.
Like totally you could have told me.
And so focusing on like showing them that it would have been okay to live out that value and they didn't need to hide or feel shameful about it
I think is more effective than getting angry at them because they didn't live out to the value.
Does that make any sense?
Yeah, I think it does.
I just think
Inevitably.
For whatever reason, it's built into maybe humans in general, but like you s we see it so explicitly in our young kids.
that the lie and feel absolutely terrible about it even though we've set up this environment where like we're not gonna be upset.
Just tell us we'll be soft about it and everything and but there's still that shame that
Causes them to not live out the values anyway.
Yeah, and it's so fascinating because it's all rooted in the same thing where it's like they don't want to be in a bad relationship with us.
They don't want that rupture to happen.
But their brains are so mature and like in their own little rationale it's like well mature, immature.
Immature, sorry.
Like in their own rationale it's like, well if I hide this then the rupture won't happen.
But then they just live with that shame anyway.
Right?
Yeah.
Whereas what we want to teach them is in that moment you could have come to me, you wouldn't have been in trouble.
Like in having that conversation about why they felt so shameful versus like catching them in not living out the value.
I don't know that I've thought of it that w quite that way.
It's a much deeper maybe way of thinking about it.
Like I was just thinking now about the fact that I saw over this just this stupid little
cork potholder, how much shame she had over this thing that costs nothing.
Right?
Like it might have even come from a thrift store or something like that, for all I know.
But thinking about it in terms of she's seeing that as like a potential separation of the relationship she has with her favorite people, her
Yeah.
Us.
That could give me even more compassion than I might already have because I can see how okay this is just wired into humans that if we lie, it ends up creating this separation
So even over little things.
As a kid I don't understand the difference between a little and big thing.
Yeah, I don't know.
I feel like I can feel a little bit more empathy towards
what she was feeling then in that situation.
Yeah, and in my opinion, in that situation when a child's lying, it's like they're actually needing you to show them that you could have handled the truth versus having a whole conversation on
honesty and why are you lying and that like in and that when that situation happened in my head I'm like, I know why you're lying.
It's because you didn't want us to get mad at you.
You don't want that rupture.
So what you need to know is that that rupture would never have happened.
Your brain goes there, but I don't think anyone else.
Exactly.
That's why I wanted to talk about that one, right?
Yeah.
Because I think most other people just get caught up on like, that's not our value.
We're honest with and then it it gets in
we have the wrong conversation with our child that actually could lead to more kind of having like a blame game with them then after that.
Yeah, okay.
That is not a change in my opinion, but a perspective change a little bit.
I would have thought you would have thought that exact same way
So that's interesting.
So here's the difference, right?
This was a fifty cent cork potholder.
But what if it was like, I don't know, or a computer or iPad and the same thing happened?
Am I gonna feel the same compassion in that moment?
If it was hidden and I can't find it and all of a sudden I'm finding that the screen was cracked or something like I don't know, like a situation where
So It's a little more substantial, right?
Here's how I think of it.
I don't know that I would feel that same Not in the moment, maybe, but the same thing probably would be happening if that was hidden.
And they didn't come to you with the truth.
No, I know exactly.
On her side, I think honestly it would be the same situation.
It wouldn't matter if it was a computer or this fifty cent little thing or toy.
It feels probably the same to her, but maybe I reacted differently in that situation because it wasn't careful.
Yeah, I didn't care about it.
I think making spaces where like I think the way you responded in that moment to say, like, hey, you could have told us we wouldn't you wouldn't have been in trouble makes it
maybe more likely that the next time she can just tell you, right?
I think we have to show kids that they can be honest with us so many times before they actually feel fully comfortable being on
honest with us.
And that's like the work we have to do as parents is to like notice our own triggers and be like, how am I responding in this situation based on like
how I actually want our family values to be lived out.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean that goes back to what you've been teaching for years, right?
We want to be the trusted caregiver, the people in the secure base, I think you call it, where they can come back to any time and they
Trust you're going to be relatively consistent as much as a human can, consistent in the way you interact with them and respond to these kinds of situations.
You know, I think about my own parents in this situation and honesty was such a huge thing in in our home of like you can be honest with us.
And I think I was very much like
our sensitive daughter where it's like I would just always be worried that someone's gonna be mad at me.
But they like did show over and over that like, no, we can handle it.
Like just tell us.
And like I remember so many mistakes even as a teenager that I would make and I would end up telling them and they would handle it quite well.
And then when bigger things happened that we had to be honest about, like really hard, like real life stuff, like when we were newly married, whatever, like hard stuff.
my first instinct as like even their adult child was like, I wanna tell them because I know that they can handle it and tolerate the real thing that I'm feeling right now.
So I think for me with our daughter, like
I'm more on the side of like curiosity.
Let's say when honesty doesn't happen, that's such a huge value for our family.
It's like, okay, well, what else can I do?
How can I show you that I can tolerate your truth
so that eventually you want to have that same relationship where you can be open and honest about the big things, not just like the little cardboard broken thing, right?
Yeah.
So I think like Well and we are definitely seeing more honesty from her.
Even if than a few months ago.
Yeah.
Like let's say a year ago, to be honest, we had no idea if what she was telling us about her time at school was also had a very creative brain.
Yeah.
If it was just her imagination or if it was real or not, we would end up texting the teacher and like ask, did this happen at school today?
And she'd be like, no.
This happened last night actually with our youngest.
She told me that at school during cot time, everyone was throwing toys at her.
I was like, they were?
Yep.
Everybody throwing toys at me.
I was like, that's interesting
I said, if I asked your teacher, do you think that would be true?
Uh don't ask her.
I was like, oh, why not?
Like I'm if everyone's throwing a toy at you during cot time, that would be quite like concerning
Uh yeah, don't ask her.
I said, why?
Did it not happen?
No, it didn't happen.
And I was like, okay.
But then like that opens up a discussion of like imagination versus honesty, right?
Like for that, that was just imagination.
But we've talked about another
In another episode.
Yeah, we did a whole episode on lying where we talked about that.
Yeah.
Oh, that's actually a part of development too.
So maybe we're talking about honesty 'cause
little kids, they're developing the ability to hold like the truth in mind and another story in mind at the same time.
And sometimes it they have a hard time differentiating between what's real and what's not.
But then to go back to your family values, it's like, okay, so our value is honesty.
So then in that moment I just said to her like, oh okay, so was that imagination, you think a little bit that like you were just imagining?
Yeah, kind of pretend
I'm like, okay, so that's fine.
But like when we're pretending, maybe you could just say like pretending versus like telling me that that's actually what happened.
Well, okay.
And then that was fine that we moved on.
But like
uh response that wouldn't have been helpful is like, why would you lie to me about that?
You know?
Why would why would you tell me that and now I'm worried and you're like lying, you know?
I mean it's one thing though for preschooler who Oh, maybe parents get mad at their kids for that.
Do, yeah.
But I feel like she's so young that you just kind of can't believe half of the stuff she says anyway, 'cause she's making up little stories or scenes or
different things with her toys and then all of a sudden she's saying something that you just heard her playing her with her Barbies and creating this little scene.
So they live like half in imagination, half in real world.
But I feel like with her middle daughter, who's now in senior kindergarten.
Mm-hmm
If she were to do the same thing, and she still sometimes does, it can be a little bit more aggravating because she can have full conversations with you.
She sounds like an older kid now, but she's still not quite telling you the truth.
Yeah, exactly.
I mean we're talk- we're only talking about this one value.
Because honesty is probably our biggest thing.
Yeah, and I think it would be for many, many families
So all this is coming from that little broken cork potholder thing.
Yeah.
I've been trying to figure out if I would react in that same way.
no matter what was broken.
Mm-hmm.
And I don't know that I would.
Yeah.
So then I can kind of see why she would be worried because in her mind It's all big.
She has no she doesn't understand the concept of money or what it takes to buy a computer versus this
Piece of cork.
So I can see for her it they're all big deals.
Every deal is a big deal.
Yeah.
But yeah, how do you remember that in the moment?
Especially if you're stressed too.
Which I was looking into like information on something called the family stress model.
And I would say we are probably in the best family situation you possibly could be in where
We don't have to worry about paying the rent or anything.
We don't have to worry about making sure we have enough money to put food on the table.
We're doing okay that way.
But that adds a whole extra layer that like I could relate to as a kid.
But
It almost feels like that's a separate life from now, so it's hard for me to even relate to that anymore.
But that adds a whole other layer of complexity and then makes it even more difficult.
in those moments to live out your own values and then show your kids that these are the right values because that also leads to increases in like in for parents, depression, anxiety, and all that.
For sure
So how if you're working with someone in that situation where let's say they barely have enough money to pay for their rent and their food and maybe
Let's say here, like coats and snow pants and all that, they have to replace every single year because their kids are growing.
How does a parent in that kind of situation actually
figure out these are my parenting values or these are our family values and this is how we're gonna live it out as a family when potentially a lot of things in their life are very chaotic.
I mean I think that no matter what situation you're in, you can still have these things.
And you know, maybe you take the pressure off yourself by being like you know, like
I was saying before, like a nice to have is you sit down, you're like, I have a a word for three months.
You know, that's a nice to have when you're not super stressed out and you have the capacity to do something like that.
But even if you
are in extreme stress.
You can be like, okay, a value for me is like showing my kids I love them, you know?
And maybe that doesn't always look perfect because in this season I'm like super stressed out.
I'm losing my
cool more than I usually would.
So what I'm gonna try and do is like just show up for them the best I can and show them I love them by repairing.
Right?
So if a situation happens where let's say they break something and it is important
you know, it's something that matters to you and you do lose your cool and you're like, shoot, like I wanted them to be honest and now I've lost my cool with them and you're like, Okay, but my value is repairing.
Like that's the one thing I know I can do.
So even if I've lost my cool, I can go back to them and be like, look
that is not how I wanted to respond to you in this situation.
I mean every parent, no matter how much stress you're going through, I was literally just telling you this morning I had to do that because I lost my cool last night at 3 a.
m.
Right.
So like every parent can have a value of repair.
Like we come back
I kind of see that as being a part of our honesty.
Because that's the way you're feeling, right?
You're feeling guilt for that, so you should explain that to your child and why
Yeah, come back and repair.
And so I think like let's say you're in that stress, like just paring it down to be like, I don't have to work on every single value right now that I want to, like maybe someday when I'm not in this like crazy chaotic season of life
But I can have the value of I want to show them I love them and I'm gonna repair after I lose my cool or whatever and focus on the things that matter most.
And then when you have the capacity, if you have the capacity, you can focus on the other thing
Yeah, because I know that, let's say for myself, if I've been stressed, I end up getting pretty grumpy.
You probably haven't noticed that.
Yeah.
It's or tired.
Yeah, or tired.
Yeah, I need like I need my sleep.
But and because when I'm stressed I don't sleep then anymore either, and then I'll go Your sleep is your first thing that goes out the window.
Yeah.
I get very grumpy.
I do
try to not be so grumpy and show my love to the girls and to you.
It's a lot more challenging for whatever reason during that time.
But then I will often
try and repair when I'm not feeling as stressed anymore.
Like when I'm feeling okay, I feel a little bit better today.
I'm gonna talk to the girls and Yeah, and even like for parents who are in it's just in a constant state of stress.
Because you you might be stressed one night and then the next morning you're better, right?
I was gonna say
That's a little different.
These studies that were done on the family stress model are on basically low socioeconomic status.
Right.
Families
And just showing if they are not, let's say, taught healthier ways to communicate with each other, even when stressed, it causes more negative outcomes.
But if they are, if they learn how to interact and communicate with each other and
it ends up with much more positive outcomes for the whole family.
Yeah.
I think that's that makes a lot of sense.
And so But I just know for myself.
Like as a ch a ch child I was in a constant state of
Stress, alarm.
All day, every day, 24-7 for many years.
For all your formative years.
In a row.
Yeah
Right, so then I know now too that my I don't know if my brain is just wired a little bit differently in that way where my cortisol levels jump a little more quickly than other people.
So I have to I try and keep an eye on that for myself because I know I just get grumpy when I'm stressed.
Well, and I think to bring it back to values, you have to keep an eye on your stress.
You have to do the work of like doing the things that make you not stressed and make you show off as the best dad you can be so that you can live in your values.
Right.
And I think that's the case for a lot of parents too, of like
We can't just tell our children like these are our family like back to what I was saying before, our family value is treating each other's kindness and I'm yelling at you all the time.
Right?
Like so a lot of it is
the guilt we feel as parents or the shame that we feel as parents often comes from us not acting in a way that is aligned with the values we want to have.
Yeah.
And so something you've done a lot of as someone who was a former child who lived in a state of alarm
for many, many years is you've done a really good job of taking the steps you need to take so that you can show up in a way that aligns with the values that you have.
And sure, some days you're stressed and then whatever, you have a hard day, and the next morning you repair.
But you're pretty quick at repairing.
It's not like it's like months later or something like that.
Right.
But I think for parents, like that is the work that we have to do as parents too.
We can't just tell our children these are our values and expect that they're gonna be honest and like they have to see it from us.
We have to be able to do.
And I think even if
you have this all family stress and it does make it harder.
I mean, there's a lot of families that grew up, let's say if you're talking about low socioec economic status and jobs and stuff, but they will say, But I was so loved
And I felt that from my parents, right?
And so it's not that it's not possible to give that.
Whereas you can have a family who's like extremely wealthy and grows up with everything physically that they need, but they didn't feel loved.
And they struggle a lot with that later in life, right?
So like that is a constant that we can give our kids kind of no matter what.
Yeah.
Okay.
I think this is a good place to wrap it up
And as we do so, what do you think is the biggest roadblock you see parents encounter when they start this process of intentionally creating family values and then
A piece of advice or one way that they can get started.
So let's say if you have someone coming into your therapy practice to talk to you about this.
Mm-hmm.
And we do talk about values a lot.
And I think one of the biggest roadblocks is not being on the same page.
Okay.
Because
Let's say it's like bring it back to like it has to start with us as parents, right?
So first internally, just as individuals and then as parents.
But let's say one partner I'm working with has like an internal value of like
back to the discipline, let's say, like I don't want to punish my kids.
And the other one has this value of like I do want to punish them because that's how I grew up and I turned out fine.
And I
like this is what I want to do.
And so they're trying to create even like a more most basic like negotiable, non-negotiable list for their parenting.
And they can't agree on like that one thing.
I think that is the biggest struggle parents face and a lot of parents have that who listen to the podcast here.
So then it's a real curiosity that has to happen for each other about like why do you hold that so close for both
And I think there has to be an openness, which this is where therapy is often like people come to therapy because they that's the only place that they can have these discussions without getting really mad at each other.
Yeah, because I was just gonna say that sounds a lot easier said than done.
Well, yeah, that's why a lot of people end up in therapy.
Therapy sometimes therapy is a really good option if you just can't agree on core values that you have as parents.
Because if there's certain things like let's say spanking or even yelling sometimes, like I'll have
parents who grew up in a very yelly family.
Like one person didn't.
Like I was yelled at all the time.
It's just how my family communicates not a big deal.
Like we can yell at our kids.
And the other person's like, my whole nervous system's off when you're yelling.
I hated being yelled at, like, absolutely we're not yelling at our kids.
Like, that's a non-negotiable for me
So then you have two people who have these very, very opposing values, and it can create a lot of conflict in a relationship as you enter into parenting.
So
If the values are very, very different in that way, I think therapy can be a really helpful and wise choice so that you can get to the root of why you both feel the way you do.
But if not
If you can find certain things you agree on, like for example, you agree, okay, we're not gonna yell at our kids, but maybe like you have both a different kind of way of talking to them that works for you individually
that you're fine with that can be kind of a negotiable, then there are a lot of parents who can work it out and create this list on their own.
And it also should be like an open conversation that you keep coming back to.
Right
And like find some wins for yourself, some things that you know you'll both agree on, just so that doesn't feel like everything on the l like there's obviously things that
You know, if you're in a relationship, hopefully there are things that you agree on.
You had these conversations before having kids and like make sure you talk about those things too.
So what I'm if I'm understanding correctly, what you're saying is your piece of advice is that
As parents, caregivers, we should try and get on the same page first or set our own like even if you're a single parent, setting your own values first and trying to make sure you're living those out is the most important
Yes.
Before even involving your children in the creation of a set of family values.
A hundred percent.
Okay.
Yeah, because I think it's
To me, if I was a child and my parents are sitting at the table being like, let's talk about family values.
Okay, so we value honesty, speaking to each other with kindness, generosity, being welcoming, whatever
Right?
And then I'm a kid and I'm like, what the heck?
Like you yell at me all the time.
You always talk bad about everybody.
You always complain every time we have to have people over.
Like you don't want to have people over in our house ever.
You yell at me whenever I like don't tell you the truth right away.
Uh this does not sound like our family values.
So like these are nice words, but I don't care.
Right.
So like it has to come from within
Yeah, children perceive a lot of people.
They get it, right?
Like if I said to our words can describe.
If we said to our girls, like our family value is being welcoming, like back to that
And they were like, You hate everyone, Mom.
Like what do you mean?
Like all you'll ever do is like talk bad about everybody.
It wouldn't be authentic and they would see straight through it.
So it has to start with modeling it and then being like, oh, there's actually a word to describe this thing that we try and do.
It's called welcoming.
This is like ways that we've done it and we want to include you in this process.
That's very different to me.
I think that's good.
Yeah.
It's very powerful, profound.
Oh wow.
I've never heard you say that word.
Cut that.
The P word.
Don't ever
Don't ever let that slip through.
I think that's a good place to end it.
I think so too.
Thank you for having this conversation with me, Jessica.
You're welcome.
I enjoy it.
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