Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Two founders talk about how to build software businesses that are meant to last. Each episode includes a deep dive into a different topic related to starting, growing, and sustaining a healthy business.
00:01.99
tylerking
What's going on, Rick?
00:03.30
Rick
What's up this week, Tyler? How you doing?
00:05.95
tylerking
Yeah, I'm doing good. i'm ah Again, kind of peak summer. This is the busy season for me, so I'm kind of, probably my busiest day is like your normal day, but I'm feeling busy. How are you doing?
00:20.92
Rick
Well, uh, what are you working on?
00:23.61
tylerking
A lot of different, so there's just a ton of meetings and stuff. Cause we have coding fellows and like, there's lessons to teach them and, and extra. So there's a lot of that stuff. And then, you know, how just sometimes things kind of all pile on at once. So like Twilio, our phone provider is like, Hey, uh, your UK number. requires a British address so you have to switch to a new different type of UK number that doesn't require British address and now I just have to go through I have to fill out a weird compliance thing with Twilio and we also need a new terms of service and privacy policy because our form builder tool has a new type of person using it and we have to address that in those and then ah we also
01:06.26
tylerking
This is maybe a bigger topic, but like we're building email integration right now and Google requires us to do a security audit. There's a lot of just really terrible paperwork type stuff we're going on right now.
01:18.63
Rick
Sounds like you're ready a business.
01:20.41
tylerking
Yeah. Yeah. But in the, like we're 50, we're almost 15 years old. There's been this stuff in the past, but normally it's like, oh, we'll do this one thing and then for the next couple of years we'll be good. Uh, three of these happening at once is pretty obnoxious.
01:36.49
Rick
Yeah. And they're all things that like, you don't have like a person for, right? Like they say they roll up to the, to the, to you.
01:43.21
tylerking
Exactly. Like I could, I guess, delegate this to someone, but the only other person at the company that sort of likes slash he doesn't even want to do it, but like has expressed some interest in it is Robert, but he's also our lead developer where it's like, I don't, I'm not sure my time is more valuable than his, like he should be going and building features. So, and, and if I gave it to anyone else at the company, like they do it, you know, you as the boss, you can say, go do this thing, but.
02:11.00
Rick
But there's a cost.
02:12.34
tylerking
There's a, they'd hate it and it'd probably get done well enough, but like, I don't know that anyone at the company is in a position to like totally nail this stuff, you know?
02:22.43
Rick
yeah No, no.
02:23.74
tylerking
So yes, it's my job ah to at least lead these things, which is so much fun. the The Google one in particular is I'm worried going to be a whole thing. Have you heard about this? That like, so yeah, like.
02:35.10
Rick
No.
02:38.02
tylerking
Google has a million APIs, right? They have one for Google calendar. They have one for Google contacts. We already use both of those. They have a bunch of other ones, but then some of them have like, uh, I think it's called a restrict restricted scope or sensitive scope or something like that. And if you connect to one of those APIs, there's additional scrutiny and and the main one like this is the Gmail API. So if you want to connect, it's not even the API, like you can use IMAP, which is like the open protocol for connecting email, but if you want to connect to IMAP via OAuth, which is the normal way to do it. Um, you have to basically do a security assessment before Google will give you permission to do that. And I'd heard about this before, uh, you know, some other podcasts I listened to, people have had to deal with this and had nightmare stories about it. Uh, our developer who's been leading the kind of email integration project, I kind of like got this on his radar months ago.
03:32.47
tylerking
And where he was like, I haven't seen anything about that yet. Maybe we're good. I don't know. And then right when we got ready to go, it's like, Nope, you, you need to do this security assessment. So trying to figure that out. It, could be a big, big problem or not. I don't know.
03:48.61
Rick
It sounds kind of like when we were trying to build the first version of leg up benefits and we were looking at the ACH requirements and every, every layer we peeled back, it was like a surprise.
03:58.16
tylerking
Yeah. Yeah. Like. Plaid, the main company companies, you know, anytime you go to your bank and it's like connect to another bank, uh, that's Plaid. We were trying to set that up and yeah, it's like they, they, you go to their marketing website and it's like simple one click banking integrations. And then it's like, it makes sense that they don't want to give you access to banking integrations without a pretty rigorous and not like like study. But yeah, we were basically like, it would be almost impossible to get approved because like a health is such a small company without like a presence that, that we can lean on for that.
04:30.06
Rick
Yep.
04:30.76
tylerking
For the Google one, there's two options. This is a quick quick side note, just about how i Twitter, as much as it's a shit show these days, still pretty useful. It looks like you have to hire a third party security. Firm and Google has a list of approved, uh, like basically auditor. They don't use the word audit, but it's basically like audit companies. Um, And like I've heard it costs something like $70,000 kind of as on the low end to get one of these audits. Uh, now I put, I tweeted about this and thankfully some people went in and were like, maybe you can self audit depending on things.
05:12.31
tylerking
So I'm really hoping, but the thing is you have to record a video of your product working and send it to Google before they will start the process of telling you what type of, what the security assessment will involve. So like you have to build the full integration, get the whole thing working, record a video of it. And then you find out what the actual like compliance burden is going to be here. The whole thing seems like a mess. So I get why they do it, but I'm not looking forward to this at all.
05:39.43
Rick
Well, you to do it right in the business that you're in. This is table stakes.
05:43.24
tylerking
Yes. Yeah. I think like with like a benefits, it was like, it literally wouldn't be worth starting that business. Like it might be in the future. It might make sense to connect to plaid if, if like a benefits has a million dollars in revenue and a bunch of users and stuff, but for a business with. Much less like we would have spent an entire year's worth of revenue, just trying to get this integration working for leg up benefits.
06:05.35
Rick
Yep.
06:07.07
tylerking
That didn't make sense for free. Yeah. Less knowing serum. We, we have to have email integration. So there's, I don't think there's a decision to be made here. Having said that. A year ago, I was saying that same thing about switching to paddle. I was like, we have to have sales tax compliance. And if I could go back in time, I'd probably not have done that.
06:22.70
Rick
and
06:22.88
tylerking
made that so I've been wrong about this before.
06:25.37
Rick
Oh, that's sad.
06:27.36
tylerking
Yeah.
06:29.31
Rick
That's sad. oh
06:30.32
tylerking
Oops. Yeah. um This one though, I, yeah, I don't see any way around it probably. So we're just going to have to do it.
06:41.53
tylerking
Anyway, I'm just venting.
06:43.98
Rick
Can I have it for a second?
06:45.16
tylerking
Yeah, go for it.
06:45.21
Rick
And then we can be done venting.
06:46.60
tylerking
yeah
06:47.51
Rick
This house man. Dude. Uh, it's twilight zone, but so they finally fixed our roof, but they only replaced the chi shingles where they replaced the, the vents that were horrendous. And so now it looks like there's two types of vents or sorry, two types of shingles on our roof, like in strips.
07:03.68
tylerking
Two types of shingles.
07:06.73
tylerking
God.
07:06.73
Rick
It looks ridiculous. And they're like, Oh, it it's just weathering. I'm like, the house is seven months old.
07:12.70
tylerking
Yeah, how weathered is that roof?
07:13.10
Rick
Like, uh, yeah, like.
07:14.95
tylerking
Oh, that's nice.
07:15.43
Rick
And so, uh, so, I mean, and then it's just long, but like my office store in the office that I'm in right now, um, they fell off the hinges because they had screws that were like half a inch long holding this, like it's a probably a 12 foot door.
07:30.17
tylerking
Oh, wow.
07:31.19
Rick
Like, I don't know, like Shaq could fit, could fit through it. Um, and, uh, it's got four hinges and it fell off the hinges. And so I had them come fix it and they sent their like, i mean I'll be nice. It's a public podcast. They sent someone who doesn't know how to fix doors. Um, and so he fixed the hinge, but now the door doesn't shut. Like it, you have to like push, pull extra hard to like get it to latch, you know, like when you close it, which is not how a door is supposed to work.
07:55.88
tylerking
Yeah. ah
07:58.69
Rick
Um, an interior door.
07:59.46
tylerking
Especially an interior door where like.
08:02.67
Rick
that you know in a in a home that is meant to like be somewhat like special. um And so anyway, I've been since April complaining about this and they sent me a video yesterday while I was like in the middle of a meeting and they said, we've taken a video. ah It's a minute long. Can you watch this and tell us what's wrong with this? We just don't understand what's wrong with this. And it's literally them opening it, shutting it, and it's not latching. And so I, I just lost it.
08:32.77
Rick
I was like, this is ridiculous. I like, I, I was like this and I, and I, I just finished ranting this morning too. I just sent him another email and the guy's out of office now. So for two weeks, well, I just, yeah.
08:41.90
tylerking
You're going into old Rick mode. I feel like back in the day you had more of a temper and you've done a very good job of becoming a bit more Zen about stuff, but it's time to unleash the demon here.
08:50.95
Rick
ah Yeah. So I lost my patients and I would say I lost my temper because like, uh, I think there's a difference. I lost my patients and then I, I let them know that I was very unhappy. Um, you know, I think I called, I called him dude. I was like, dude, like the, door the, the, the video literally shows you opening and closing the door without it latching. Like what the hell is happening? I didn't say what the hell, but like, I was like, can you, so anyway, um, I've asked them to just put me in touch with the door people directly.
09:13.94
tylerking
Yeah.
09:17.72
Rick
And I told them I will do their jobs for them.
09:20.07
tylerking
Wow. I'm sorry. So, uh, sorry. You have to deal with all that. That's so you've got your door. You've got roof. is Are there like a million other things that are also wrong with it or yeah.
09:26.97
Rick
Oh yeah. Yeah. We've got water damage now, which is incredibly alarming um all over the house.
09:31.13
tylerking
and
09:32.64
Rick
And so I don't know if anyone's got any advice on how to deal with this. I'm open to it. This is our first time homeowners and this has just been a ah train wreck. And it's, it's, it's, it's, I think the the most frustrating part is that it's dominating, like our kids dominate our lives, which they should. Our work dominates our life because like it, you know, it's how we provide. and we And we like to work hard, but then it's like, this dominates our life.
09:56.99
tylerking
Hm.
09:59.22
Rick
Like this is not healthy. And so I just want it to go away, but at the same time, we've got to protect our financial investment. We've got to make sure we're living in a safe home. ah it's um It's not good. So that's my vent. I will not talk about it a again today, but like I, like i right before this call, I was wrapping up an email right before this recording. I was wrapping up an email to him and I was just like, duh.
10:21.37
tylerking
God, that sucks. I ah follow someone on TikTok who is like a home inspector and his whole theme is basically just ah house flippers on new house builds are like the the quality of craftsmanship on average. Obviously there are some companies that do it well, but like on average is so low and he'll just go through a house and be like, Here are 50 things that are completely fucked about this house. They bought it for 300, the one I just saw bought it for $300,000 like a few months ago, selling it for a million dollars right now. Someone put an offer down on it. And so the inspector works for the person who puts the offer down. It's like someone just paid a million dollars for this house. And like the whole thing is falling apart. That that wasn't for a new bill. That was for ah a flip job. But anyway, it seems like this is a pretty widespread problem.
11:06.81
Rick
Yeah, and that's you know it's good that you mentioned that because that's probably what we're going to what what um we're goingnna do is we're going to hire a third party inspector to come in and basically ah have them tell us what our what our risk is and like how bad how bad this is. um we've had had that We did that before we closed, but we need to do it again.
11:23.14
tylerking
yeah
11:24.06
Rick
and because we have we have new we We're more educated now, we have more information, and we need to decide how we want to handle it. like whether it's something we just want to you know There's kind of three options. right You can just walk away and be happy, try to be happy, um deal with it yourselves. you can Um, you know, keep going through the motions of the warranty process and and try like the problem is they're just making things worse. Um, and I think I can't tell if it's intentional or just incompetence, like probably some combination of both.
11:47.73
tylerking
Yeah.
11:50.34
Rick
Um, and then the third is you escalate, um, and you try to get to some sort of settlement. Um, and, um, I, you know, I, I don't know what the right, I don't know what the right approach is.
11:59.89
tylerking
Yeah, but this was a luxury price point, right? this It's not like you bought some kind of cheap chintzy house.
12:04.85
Rick
ah This is a self positioned luxury home builder. And they just got purchased by a very reputable group um here in Utah. And so they now have bosses. So that's that's another avenue I haven't explored as part of the escalation strategy is. um is is Right now they've got sort of their so separation between their legacy sort of sales and warranty work under the old entity and then their sort of fresh lots and new work is under this new luxury division of this ah ah a new owner.
12:35.79
tylerking
Mm hmm.
12:44.53
Rick
And so I haven't yet escalated with the new owner yet because they're not really over what they didn't buy this stuff but at the same time I can make their lives difficult um with with ah you know helping them understand the quality of work and and what they're in for as as as as ah with with their new employees.
13:00.34
tylerking
Yeah, for sure. Well, sorry, deal with that. I not to like. brag or whatever, but my, the construction project on my end, I have, I'm having the exact opposite experience. I cannot believe how good this company is. So they do exist. That won't help you. But if anyone out there is in St. Louis and needs a good contractor, I've got.
13:19.81
Rick
Well, you know, when you've got a good, a good contractor and it's like, um, we, we did a pretty significant window upgrades when we moved in like treatment wise. Um, and like, uh, like you can see these plantation shutters behind me. Um, like the, the company that did these, and this install, we were just like, we watched them work and how they like prepped and how they cleaned up after themselves and how they QA'd and how they walked us through. We were like,
13:46.51
tylerking
Yeah.
13:46.72
Rick
Oh my, our jaws dropped. And we were just like, this is like, this is what we thought we were getting with our home builder.
13:52.27
tylerking
Mm hmm.
13:52.56
Rick
And we did not.
13:53.44
tylerking
The cleanup is what shocks me about because they're they're demolishing our kitchen like like as we speak and every day I go home from work there's not a speck of dust like they the amount of care they put into like ah kind of putting tarps up around the whole thing, blocking off events so it doesn't circulate dust, cleaning up after every day. They do a lot of other stuff well, but that's the one that I was like, okay, that's a sign of a company that really cares. I've taken some cues for how we should do customer service, actually.
14:20.28
Rick
ah Totally the, um, so I can translate this back into like, so started to last software businesses. Um, like we always talk about proxy metrics, uh, for like the outcome that you want. Like if you want to know if you have a good contractor, like just like have them do the smallest job possible. And if there's any sort of cleanup required by you after it, or there's any sort of quality issue, do not hire them, but like it, it, but the other, the opposite is like, if they clean up after themselves, that is such a good signal that like,
14:42.07
tylerking
Yeah.
14:49.23
Rick
they are they they will do a good job. like like i mean the like this That is the number one thing.
14:55.59
tylerking
Yeah. Well, it's just like, it's a difference between a business that has like thinks about user experience. like Like you could go up to a programmer and say, what is your job? And if they're like, my job is to write code versus like my job is to build products that are useful to customers or whatever. And that's a contrived example. I wouldn't expect a software engineer to actually like. Think that way, but that should be the answer, right? The, the, everyone's job is to provide value to the customer. Whereas you could go to a general contractor or whatever and be like, what is your job? And like, well, to put up drywall or whatever, you know?
15:27.55
Rick
yeah Yeah, no, it's it's not. It's actually to ensure that a quality home is constructed ah and with with strong you know and thoughtful and level walls.
15:34.87
tylerking
Yeah.
15:38.08
tylerking
Yeah. Um, well, what else is going on?
15:40.26
Rick
All right. On a positive note, um so one of my goals this year was to ah upleve my ah get back to sort of daily activity. um i've done i've got I feel like I've got a groove now um where i'm where I've got you know Oh, another disaster. Did I tell you I ordered a tempo?
15:59.96
tylerking
What's a tempo?
16:00.96
Rick
It's an in-home fitness center. Have you ever heard of like the mirrors?
16:04.06
tylerking
Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay.
16:05.14
Rick
No. So this is like a mirror competitor, but it's basically like this huge smart tablet standing device that has a camera that watches you work out and like gives you feedback and coaches you. Anyway, I ordered one of those and I just went through the worst return process you've ever been through. Like I finally got my money back, but don't order tempo.
16:20.31
tylerking
It just didn't, it didn't work or something.
16:24.86
Rick
It had a broken audio box. so i ah This is like the stuff I've been dealing with. ah so i go and And these are high class problems. i'm like I shouldn't like complain, but it's like funny. I order this thing. I put a lot of money on it. um and ah And it comes and the audio box is broken. And so i I emailed them in. I do some research. And apparently it's a recurring thing. I'm like, uh, this is an issue and they're going, Oh yeah, let me send you an audio repair kit and then you can fix it. I'm like, no, I'm not going to fix this.
16:53.49
tylerking
Yeah, I just spent thousands of dollars on this.
16:54.21
Rick
This is your problem. And so they were like, Oh no, this is how we do. I'm like, then they're like, okay, we'll send a audio repair technician. I'm like, okay, I'll let you try this, but like, I think you should send me a new one. um And so anyway, we went back and forth. And finally, I was just like, so annoyed with the scheduling process of how the the audio guy was going to try to coordinate with me. That was just like, I'm done.
17:18.33
tylerking
Just return it.
17:18.49
Rick
This is how it's going to be. I'm done. Take this away. Took two months to get get them to pick it up.
17:23.00
tylerking
Wow. And what's yeah, I hate returning expensive stuff like this. I did this with an eight sleep, which they did. Admittedly, they had a good return process. I didn't like the product, but the return, but you can tell they just come and take the eight sleeps of mattress for people who don't know.
17:37.69
Rick
And it's the best product ever.
17:37.97
tylerking
Uh, uh, yeah, we've already, I guess we've already covered this on the podcast, but they, they come and you can tell they're just throwing the whole thing away.
17:38.73
Rick
And Tyler's wrong.
17:45.99
tylerking
They're not. What are they going to do with this mattress that's in St.
17:49.36
Rick
and care so yeah Who knows?
17:50.28
tylerking
Louis, Missouri? like they I feel bad returning something like that, but ah like this mirror thing, I assume they just threw in the trash somewhere. um
18:01.11
Rick
Um, or they tried to, you know, dupe someone else with it. Cause I'm sure the one I got was not the first time someone got, got that one.
18:07.49
tylerking
yeah but You've got activity going on.
18:07.84
Rick
Um, but, but, but, but yeah, but, but with, if you decide to go with an eight sleep, do not order the mattress, get your, find a mattress that you love and get the cover.
18:11.33
tylerking
yeah
18:18.06
Rick
The cover is way to go.
18:20.04
tylerking
That would have helped. Yeah. Their king size mattress is not, it's not the right size. They just made up a different set of dimensions for a king size mattress.
18:26.14
Rick
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yeah.
18:27.41
tylerking
That's one of my many complaints. Okay.
18:29.56
Rick
ah so So, but my daily activity is up. I finally got that out of the way. I've got a workout area now that I can use. I've got, I'm doing 10,000 steps a day consistently. I feel really good.
18:39.75
tylerking
Nice.
18:40.54
Rick
I'm sorry, i'm I'm heading the right direction physically, which is a ah big goal of mine this year. And, um you know, the next thing that I want, I'll let you kind of give some updates too, but like, umm I'm feeling better about where I am with like a health as well.
18:53.12
tylerking
Okay, cool. I mean, if you want to just dive into it, go for it.
18:55.28
Rick
Yeah. Okay. So I feel like I'm just like complaining about stuff, but this is actually positive now. So I had a ah kind of come to, so I think I've told you on the podcast before that I, that I joined, uh, we call it a men's group just cause it's all guys, but like, it's just a mastermind group, uh, that is, uh, happens to not have any, um, non, uh, male, uh,
19:18.51
tylerking
Keep talking, Rick. This is going great.
19:21.71
Rick
ah participants um ah ah so so So anyway, we get together once a month at someone's house and we, you know, the first, the first few were like, it was like comfortable cause everyone was like talking very rawly about like what's going well and what's not going well in their lives. um And I'm not going to share any details about other people, but like what I've, what I've been, you know, kind of bringing to the group. is that I feel unsettled with, with my sort of steady state contribution to leg up health. Um, and, and it's been you know pretty much this year, about an hour a week and sometimes a little bit more, sometimes less if JD and I don't meet. Um, and so.
20:01.89
Rick
and And it just feels like I was having this conflict of like, should I push harder on the business? Should I let let it happen? you know I explained that there's a seasonality component. um you know ah should should we you know we We are doubling every year. like and it's And all the signals point to if we just keep doing what we're doing and I'm more patient, um we'll double again, which is the goal, base goal. But it won't happen until open enrollment. Or like do I push on this thing? Um, and do do we try to accelerate growth out of open enrollment? Um, and, uh, anyway, so that was, I took that to, they, because I brought that up a couple of times, they were like, you should bring that as a large topic to the group next time. And they actually put me with what's in a, called a hot seat. So for 30 minutes, I had to talk about this and let people like grill me about like my personal issue with this. And, and what, what the, the resounding feedback was is that.
20:55.15
Rick
I needed to run an experiment to push the business harder and learn whether or not I can, we can go faster and then make a decision based on that. but Um, and so I'm much more coherent in terms of how I'm explaining this right now.
21:04.48
tylerking
Mm
21:08.73
Rick
But like when I came to the partner meeting at like a pelt on Monday, which we have monthly, I explained to you and JD, I was like, ah, I was very ah ah kind of emotional about it and not very clear, but like I was, I, through this process, I got, we got to a place, um, whether it was, a healthy way or not to a short-term goal, which is we're going to try to grow the business at leg up health by 50% over the next two months ah in terms of monthly recurring revenue.
21:29.82
tylerking
hmm.
21:36.40
Rick
We're at 10K a month currently. We want to see if we can add 5K in revenue. by July 31st, that's gonna be hard. But like, it's something that I feel is doable.
21:43.61
tylerking
Yeah.
21:45.08
Rick
I think JD feels it's doable too. And I i get the sense that you kind of felt like, hey, maybe this is possible. um But like, whether it is or isn't, we've kind of said like, we're gonna go try to do this. And it's going to require behavior change um for me, um and most likely JD as well. And at the end, at the end of this time period, we're going to assess how we did against the goal and make some change. Like we'll decide what letter we want to continue to go down this router. We want to back off. There's like kind of polar extremes here, which is like go into like hibernation outside of open enrollment and just service customers or like continue to like aggressively pursue sales.
22:11.45
tylerking
yeah
22:20.53
tylerking
Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts about this. Like, and so one thing you kind of said, do I, or do I not believe this is possible? Like I do one, one thing that I am not clear on. So, and I, the listener was not in the meeting that I was in. So I don't know how much context you fried here, but basically like one of the things you said was you're like, yeah I know person A, B and C, I can just go ask them for their business.
22:35.92
Rick
Yeah.
22:44.34
tylerking
And I think if we get one or two of them, like. We're already halfway there or something along those lines. How much in your mind is it like, there's some of this low hanging fruit that we just haven't picked. We can get 5,000, we can grow 50% the next two months, but then we will have picked the fruit versus how much of it is just like, we've been taking the wrong mentality entirely. And if we're just more aggressive or change our tactics or whatever, we can grow 5K MRR every two months forever.
23:10.96
Rick
Yeah, I think ah I don't know the answer. um but what So here's here's kind of a general observation I've been thinking about as I dig. So so one change I'm making behavior wise is instead of like a weekly one hour investment, I'm just making a daily investment and I'll go as much as I can every day, but at least like a little bit of investment. um and all like So I'm pitching someone, I'm asking for something, i'm I'm moving something forward. Like that's a big change that compounds.
23:37.01
tylerking
Mm
23:37.13
Rick
um and And I think that is like infinitely scalable. um And then, you know, multiplied by hours at some point, if if I am able to put more hours into the business in the future. um But but ah they're kind of two types of customers that we are prospects that we come across. One is what I would call like a passive buyer and one is an active buyer. um What's unique about our business is that we have a pretty strong value proposition to a passive buyer, someone who is already spending money on health insurance,
23:56.81
tylerking
hmm.
24:03.73
Rick
but is underserved, but it's not, doesn't realize they're underserved, isn't aware of a pain problem. Um, and, and, it and the, and the cost of switching to us and us making money on them to them is extremely low. And so it's fundamentally like an interruption plus like figuring out how to persuade them to prioritize two or three minutes of transition to us.
24:15.76
tylerking
Yeah.
24:26.22
tylerking
Right.
24:26.27
Rick
Um, which is a big emotional.
24:27.39
tylerking
It's the type.
24:28.38
Rick
Yeah, go ahead.
24:28.96
tylerking
It's the type of thing that we've said a million times that less knowing CRM can't do this, right?
24:33.12
Rick
Correct.
24:33.23
tylerking
If someone's just a small businesses sitting there and I walk up to them and like, Hey, think about switching to a CRM or whatever that they're going to be like, no, I've got other shit going on, but like you still have. like a health still has the same challenge that you have to get them to pay attention to you, but the ask is three minutes of their time. It's not, can you completely uproot everything you're working on?
24:52.61
Rick
Correct.
24:53.08
tylerking
Yeah.
24:53.08
Rick
Yes. Um, and, and the, uh, uh, on the other other end of the spectrum, so that's passive buyer that like, and it's pretty much everyone in our ICP. Then there's the active buyer who is like, I have a issue. um Whether it's a personal life event, um like i'm I moved to Utah, I had a baby, I ah started a business, or I switched jobs. um Or it's a business event where it's like, I'm trying to hire someone, I just got a rate increase. um I just got funding. you know
25:24.99
Rick
ah These create journeys where they actually go looking for a solution. And that's more about being there at the right time. Those like are like, we win.
25:35.70
tylerking
Yeah.
25:35.71
Rick
and We don't lose. like The only reason we lose those is if ah they go with a PEO, which is something we don't offer. But but if they are like, buyer journey, come with contact with us, we win the business. So there's kind of two growth strategies, which is like, how do we get found by more but active buyer journeys outside of open enrollment? Why is open enrollment a growth period for us? Everyone's in a buyer journey during open enrollment. That's why it's a seasonal business. But like, how do we, they're still outside of open enrollment buyer journeys that we could get more of.
25:59.31
tylerking
but Yeah Yeah
26:03.01
Rick
So that's one thing that I'm trying to figure out. And the other thing that I would spend time is like, how do we pitch a passive buyer? And how do we interrupt them in a way that makes them ah take action. and And that's where I think your question gets to is like, I think it's easy to interrupt and persuade someone you have a relationship with to ah care about this outside of open enrollment or outside of an active buyer journey. I don't know if that's true for cold calling. Although JD has a a very solid prospect from his outbound calls right now that he has pitched and has committed to giving us the business passively.
26:36.50
tylerking
Yeah, although he he's done a lot of outbound to get this this one good lead like you wouldn't He's
26:42.51
Rick
On a relative outbound basis, no, but like, to I could see you saying that he's reached out to 280 prospects and gotten, uh, which is like ah two weeks of like outbound work for an SDR, um, and gotten, uh, five opportunities, one of which is likely to close and generate a thousand, uh, $1,500 a month in revenue.
27:01.44
tylerking
and Okay. So you're saying now he's not an SDR in the sense he has other obligations to business beyond that.
27:06.36
Rick
Mm-hmm.
27:08.04
tylerking
But if you had a full-time person doing it, you're saying maybe they can pay for themselves in a few months, which obviously if that's true, that's amazing. um Okay.
27:13.95
Rick
Yes, exactly.
27:15.89
tylerking
to To go back a little bit. So one of the other options you said, you're kind of like, we're trying to decide right now. Do we step on the gas or do we say, you know what, this is a seasonal business. Most of the growth is going to happen during open enrollment. Let's just go into kind of hibernation between open enrollment service, our current customers. I don't know, take a ton of vacation or work other jobs on the site or whatever, but like maybe it's not constructive to be stepping on the gas outside of open enrollment. ah One interesting parallel to that I'll mention is Brian Castle, who has a podcast called bootstrapped web.
27:51.43
tylerking
He made the product zip message, which i I've talked about a lot on this podcast.
27:55.18
Rick
It's called clarity flow right now.
27:55.23
tylerking
It's now called clarity flow now. Yeah.
27:57.21
Rick
Yeah.
27:57.91
tylerking
Um, I still use it quite a bit, even though they kind of pivoted anyway. Uh, listening to his podcast is interesting cause like he kind of pulled back from clarity flow a little bit, but not because he lost interest in, and I'm going to do my best to reflect what he said on his podcast. Um, I hope I don't get this wrong, but. He was basically just like, this is good this is growing, and I still believe in it as a business. But I don't think that I can spend all my time growing it fast enough for it to pay like pay for the effort that it would require.
28:31.91
tylerking
But if I just sit back and let it compound and and you know get word of mouth or whatever the growth channels are, if you take a slower approach, that could still work. So he moved to a model where he's doing consulting and maybe considering other products and stuff.
28:40.54
Rick
Mm hmm.
28:45.87
tylerking
to give himself tons of runway so that clarity flow can hopefully one day kind of become what he originally wanted it to be, which I see some parallels between that and what you're talking about with leg up health.
28:55.77
Rick
Totally. Yeah, I think. and And that's one thing I reflected on after we had our conversation. um i I called JD the next morning. We did a working session. I was like, that was all about me. That wasn't it. Because one thing that's hard is like, JD's in the business. And so And I'm not. And so when I'm challenging the growth rate, it's hard for him, it's impossible for him not to feel personally challenged because he is the growth. um And so. um And so it's very hard for me, like, and I'm still, this is something I need to work on as a human is like, when I, and this may be applicable to people listening, when oftentimes when I am upset about something for myself, I express it in a way that makes other people feel like I'm, I'm upset with them.
29:37.88
Rick
When in reality, I'm just like frustrated with my personal
29:38.77
tylerking
Mm-hmm.
29:40.93
Rick
performance or my personal situation.
29:41.09
tylerking
Hmm.
29:42.89
Rick
And I just wanna talk about it with someone and help get to a better shared view of what life should be. um In this case, leg up health growth. um But i was it was it was healthy for us to like kind of recap the next morning and go, hey, this is about me and what I want out of leg up health, not what you're doing, because what you're doing is great. I just need to know whether I should be satisfied with what you're doing and shut up, or ah you know i'm you know or I need to like lean in more.
29:59.71
tylerking
Yeah.
30:08.70
tylerking
Yeah. I have some, to to make this about me now, i I have some similar, when we're in those partner meetings, I kind of view my role as to be the like, uh, agitator somewhat.
30:12.95
Rick
Yeah. yeah
30:20.86
tylerking
And yeah, I also worry that I might've challenged things I shouldn't have in that, in that call, but.
30:26.04
Rick
no the The best thing you said, and I'll say it on here, is Rick, your actions don't speak what your aspirations are. If your aspiration is to build a bootstrap business that you know you funds the lifestyle and family situation that you want, you're not investing in it.
30:42.76
tylerking
Hmm.
30:43.26
Rick
And, and, uh, that, that was actually what, like, when I woke up the next morning, I was like, the, the number one thing I can change is the two things I could change. So we have, we've changed the goal. The goal is different. Um, and so that's going to change something, but the first behavior change I can make is this becomes a daily thing versus ah a weekly thing. And that's a big, big change.
31:00.84
tylerking
and Yeah, so you've you've only had three days to do this. um How does it feel? I assume it's too early to say if it's working, but like, how does it feel?
31:12.09
Rick
It's incredibly energizing and I feel like I'm not afraid. I think there was a huge conflict between like what I was saying I wanted and what I was acting and I, I was expressing that in strange ways, but like that fundamentally was my issue.
31:22.94
tylerking
Hmm.
31:23.13
Rick
Um, and, uh, so, uh, I mean, it feels like I'm much more, uh, authentic version of myself.
31:26.79
tylerking
Okay.
31:31.02
Rick
Like, Oh yeah, I'm actually working on this.
31:31.80
tylerking
Well, is it sustainable? Like that's the big question is you've got so much on your plate.
31:35.18
Rick
Oh yeah. Dude, I go for two walks a day. I can take three or four calls on those walks.
31:41.47
tylerking
Okay.
31:41.66
Rick
Um, if I want to, but like, this is just about intention. And, and I like a guy, this is a perfect example. Like a guy emails in like to leg up saying, I want to pitch you on automation. Um, and I go, Hey, you're in Utah. You seem like a perfect customer for us. How about we just jump on a quick call and like pitch each other and he's like, great. So five minute call pitching him.
32:02.71
tylerking
and
32:04.08
Rick
He's like, Hey, I i just started this thing a month ago, but like, and I, so I get health insurance through my wife. Um, but this sounds perfect for when I go full time. So it wasn't an ICP, but like I got a pitch in and then, you know, he's going to send me a proposal on how he thinks he can help us without bound.
32:11.88
tylerking
Yeah.
32:17.97
tylerking
Cool. um Yeah, if you're taking a few calls a day, it's hard to imagine that not being a pretty big deal eventually, um hopefully sooner rather than later because of the two month goal you set. but
32:31.52
Rick
Yep.
32:32.09
tylerking
Cool. That's exciting.
32:33.28
Rick
But thank you for, anyway, that's i'm i'm ah so so my my day my day my my I will be reporting on this goal 5K by July 31st, and that's in bookings.
32:33.44
tylerking
so
32:35.71
tylerking
So.
32:42.61
Rick
It doesn't have to come into the like the actual cashflow. We just need to have like contracts ah with it worth the agent on, and and and and and receivables will follow that. um And then ah you know I wanna do a daily ah daily of commitment, so feel free to hold me accountable to that.
33:00.38
tylerking
Yeah, awesome. It's 5k MRR by July 31st. It'll be, I mean, obviously we're all hoping it happens, but it'll be, it it would just be so fascinating what the next conversation is if it does, but that that could have some pretty big implications. So.
33:14.21
Rick
Mmhmm.
33:14.89
tylerking
Um, cool. I don't have a ton of like interesting stuff to say. I'll, I'll take a moment to celebrate. Uh, we, as of this week have, so last weekend we upgraded to my SQL eight from my SQL 5.7. Uh, this was the thing I've talked about before that we hired Percona, this kind of consulting company to come in and help. Basically this is the biggest database upgrade we've done in a while. And anytime you do that. You worry, like there's all kinds of stuff that can go wrong. Um, you know, maybe some of of the queries we were writing don't work anymore or whatever.
33:45.65
tylerking
That type of stuff's pretty easy to figure out. The bigger concern that we've had in the past is sometimes you upgrade a database and databases do all these like weird optimizations that are kind of invisible to, to the developer.
33:56.00
Rick
Yeah.
33:57.88
tylerking
It's like you run a query and it's like, I don't know. It took 200 milliseconds. I don't know why. Right. Sometimes when we upgrade. We test things out, and it seems like everything's working. But then it's like, oh, there's this one user who has their data set up in a weird way. And now this query that was taking 50 milliseconds takes 15 seconds, and they can't use the CRM anymore, basically. um So that's the concern. Anyway, we we did this migration last weekend. It seems like absolutely nothing went wrong. Nothing changed at all. Feeling very good about that.
34:29.12
tylerking
um
34:29.92
Rick
Wow.
34:30.88
tylerking
Yeah, it, it works. Yeah. This is the shitty thing about DevOps though, is like the best case scenario is things still work.
34:37.15
Rick
There's no upside.
34:37.51
tylerking
Like customers aren't going to notice this. Yeah. Um, we are in the process of, of, of what we're like halfway through, uh, gradually switching over to PHP eight. And what I mean is we're, we're running two versions of PHP right now and and using a load balancer to gradually put more and more on the new version, but. As of the end of this week or next week, we'll be fully upgraded on PHP. And this month we shipped the end of a project that we started in 2016, which was fully porting our app over to React, which is like a front end JavaScript framework.
35:08.82
Rick
Thank
35:14.71
tylerking
So three pretty major things that our customers are not going to notice.
35:17.98
Rick
you.
35:20.00
tylerking
You know, it's almost completely invisible, but pretty major. What you might call technical debt, uh, things addressed like this month. Um, feels pretty good.
35:30.32
Rick
This is awesome. I mean, I was just, I don't know much about like the details here in terms of technical expertise, but every time you talk about it, it feels like there's a lot of risk in the transition. Um, and it's just like, you have to do it for, it's like a necessary thing. So the fact that it's done, um, and that you can just focus on like, uh, you know, tweaking it as, as you identify issues and move on to other like value added things seems like a huge, huge win.
35:54.51
tylerking
Yeah, I'm very excited about it. Now, just to like put this out in the universe, but mostly as a reminder to myself, the the mistake I have made in the past that I don't want to make this time. So there's this constant thing. If you have a team of developers, developers, maybe not all of them, but many of them just want to pay down technical debt. Like there's a certain stress that I've observed, at least on this team, most of the developers have, but I think this is true generally that like. actually, so let let me tell a little side story, Rick, one time when you were running people keep you, I think I was in town anyway, but you asked me to come talk to your team of developers and it's because they were suggesting to you, basically let's completely re rebuild the entire app from scratch in a new programming language. Um, and you, I think you were like, this sounds pretty stupid and you wanted to bring in an external third party to say that it sounds pretty stupid.
36:49.14
Rick
Yep.
36:49.67
tylerking
Um, so you're, I, and not to say that I'm necessarily right, but like I am. And so were you. That was stupid. Um, but that's the instinct I'm talking about is developers are just like, forget building a new feature or whatever. I want to like focus on making the code beautiful and perfect and all of that. Right. Um, there's constantly, I'd say pressure from the developers at this company and at every company to, to invest in technical debt. I think in the past I would have let this launch and just moved on. What I need to do is remind everybody, we just had like three major tech debt wins in a very short period. I mean, they all launched at the same time. We've been working on these since last year. and Well, one of them we've been working on since 2016. I need to like keep saying, look at how much we invested in tech debt. Look at all this stuff we did so that the team remembers it and feels good about it.
37:43.81
Rick
It's so easy to on on things that like this that don't ah directly impact the customer to just look past it and not celebrate it. um But that is such a bad decision. so like like You should celebrate something like this as much as you celebrate um you know a customer milestone.
37:56.13
tylerking
Yeah.
38:03.28
tylerking
Well, yes, but like what I don't want to do is make it the message I want to send to people is we, we ate our vegetables. Now let's go do the stuff we want to do. well I don't want to celebrate this in a way that makes it sound like this is just as big of an accomplishment as shipping forms because what I want to do is ship forms, you know?
38:21.78
Rick
That's fair. Okay. So yeah, yeah. No, so but, but, but you have to pause and and say, Hey guys, we just ate our vegetables. Um, let's take a break.
38:29.47
tylerking
yeah Yeah, exactly.
38:30.38
Rick
You know, let's reward ourselves some way for this. This isn't the, the top of the apex, but like, this is, um, this is meaningful.
38:38.34
tylerking
Yeah. This is the first time we'll ever in the whole history of the company be up to date on both PHP and my SQL.
38:45.24
Rick
Yep.
38:45.27
tylerking
Um, now I said we finished putting to react to the version of react we're using is like four years out of date now, but whatever one thing at a time. Um, anyway, yeah, I just thought I'd share that I'm feeling good about it need to, I'd say there are a lot of ways in the business right now. I'm being reminded that I have not, I know you just have to say the same things over and over and over again. And, uh, a variety of little things have come up recently where. Like someone brought something up and I'm like, do you not remember our policy on this? And they're like, what? We have a policy on this. And I'm like, this is like the number one thing in our Wiki.
39:17.43
tylerking
If you just go to our Wiki, our internal Wiki, it's like the first thing everyone at the company's trained on it. But I haven't said anything about it in two years or whatever. Uh, and so people forget it's hard being, being run a company's hard. Uh, cool. Anything else on your list or should I just keep rambling for me?
39:36.23
Rick
keep um I've got one like kind of like a fun topic to discuss around chat, CPT, and AI, but like we can save that for the end.
39:43.49
tylerking
Um, I've only, I need to run in 10 minutes here. or So, uh, uh, yeah. Okay. Very quick update on talk to sales. The thing I've been talking about a lot this year, um, more or less, I'd say we are still where we were last time I gave an update, which is say we're at a plateau, which, you know, the first month we did this with was February. We got a ton of, we just put a pop up on the homepage. It's like. Would you rather talk to sales instead of self-serving worked? Great. We have been AB testing a million variations, basically saying, how do we get more people to click that button and schedule a call with Alex or salesperson? I will say we've got an AB test running right now that seems to be working as in terms of like, it's maybe a 20% increase, uh, which is not nothing. Um, we have a couple other ideas, so we continue to optimize it. It feels good to have.
40:33.86
tylerking
Uh, ideas to test, but it continues to kind of feel like pushing a boulder up a hill. We're not really seeing a ton of results, unfortunately. So I don't know if there's anything to talk about there, but I figured I'd give that update.
40:48.74
Rick
are you got what's What's your next step?
40:51.66
tylerking
So we're testing right now. Okay. Uh, the series of AB b tests we did at first, we had a little pop up in the bottom right corner, kind of where an inter intercom widget goes. That's like, would you rather talk to sales? That was annoying. We tested just adding a third button to the hero section on our homepage. So now it's like start a free trial, see how it works, which actually means do a live demo. Um, and then now talk to sales. We found out putting that button there did not improve the conversions much in terms of the number of people scheduling a call. But it more or less matched it. It improved it a little, and it's a lot less annoying. There's not a pop-up covering up the bottom of the screen. um So we did that. Now we're testing out is talk to sales the right language, or like book a demo, or something like that that's a little less salesy and a little more um implies customer service more than sales.
41:44.96
tylerking
Talk to sales seems to be winning that um that, the results aren't fully in. The next thing I want to do is when, so I said that second CTA is, ah see how it works, right? When someone clicks that, I don't think they necessarily expect that to take them to a live demo. um
42:02.09
Rick
Mmhmm.
42:02.69
tylerking
So the hope, what the next thing we want to try is when they click that to be like, how do you want to see how it works?
42:03.81
Rick
Hmm.
42:09.25
tylerking
Do you want to do a live demo? Do you want to, I think you can watch a video or something like that, or do you want to talk to someone?
42:15.19
Rick
No, I agree.
42:15.23
tylerking
Um, so that's the hope is that that brings in a whole different, that like talk to sales brings in the enterprise type of buyer and then see how it works leads to talk to someone, which brings in the more self-service like customer service type buyer.
42:15.71
Rick
Yes. Yes.
42:29.42
Rick
I'll send you a sample of of this flow that I saw recently that actually looks pretty like works pretty well.
42:34.65
tylerking
Okay.
42:35.05
Rick
Um, so allah I'll, I'll say that to you.
42:35.16
tylerking
Cool.
42:38.36
tylerking
Thanks. Um, anyway, I'll keep updating, but that's what's going on right now. Uh, anything from you? Oh yeah. The chat GPT thing. What do you want to, what do you got?
42:48.56
Rick
Yeah. Yeah. So like, um, I'm realizing that I'm, I'm, I've waited long enough to like, actually I've just piddled with chat GPT, but I'm realizing like it's good enough now where I need to, I need to really start trying to use it more to to provide leverage. And so, um, do you have any, any quick tips? Like, so I'm, I'm more interested in using it at windfall probably than I am at, um, like up, uh, currently, but I'm, I'm curious, like, what what are the i What are some ways you think that I could get some immediate value out of chat GPT or any AI sort of Gen tool in my role at Windfall? Like I do a lot of internal company Wiki. So yesterday I used it, for example, to write a, or outline a,
43:35.14
Rick
internal blog post guidelines to help drive more consistent blog posts and also give people guidance so that they could contribute more.
43:40.22
tylerking
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
43:43.03
Rick
Did a great job of that, just edited it a little bit. So like one is internal wiki um sort of ah drafting of documents. Eventually blog post drafts um ah as well. I was thinking also Salesforce um sort of ah tool like architecture ah decisions. like if we need If I need to like build an approval process, like prompting it to tell me how to do that.
44:06.47
tylerking
Yeah.
44:06.52
Rick
Do you have any other ideas?
44:08.80
tylerking
Um, this is like maybe not a new idea, but just a riff on those. I find it to be a lot better for editing than for creation. Like if if you say, Hey, can you draft a new blog post without giving it a ton of information, it's going to give you some pretty generic boilerplate shit. But if you say, Hey, here's a blog post I wrote, what do you think could be better about it? Um, what do you think, or like, I just did this with, you know, I'm rewriting our terms of service and privacy policy right now. I gave it the current ones. I said, here are the things that I want to be changed about it. Can you give me any feedback on what could be better? ah Like, are there any problems? Incorporate these changes and then have a whole conversation. I don't know if when you're doing this, you're doing that, but like have a whole conversation. Like it gives me, it spits back a new version and I'm like, no, no, no, no, change this, change that, change that. I don't like how you did this, like back and forth and back and forth and back and forth, kind of like a, an editing partner rather than just like, give me some text. I'm going to take it and run with it.
45:03.80
Rick
Makes sense.
45:04.88
tylerking
Um, and then, yeah, I like it as just a person to, or it's not a person, but I'm thinking through a thing. Do you know the the concept of rubber ducky development?
45:15.53
Rick
Yep, talk to the rubber ducky.
45:16.81
tylerking
Opt to talk the rubber ducky. I like kind of using chat GPT. Like I'm thinking through how am I going to do this thing with an employee or, uh, we're doing a hiring process or whatever. And just having to type it out to chat GPT helps me. And then sometimes it gives me a good idea. Sometimes it doesn't.
45:31.44
Rick
No, that's a good point. Uh, I actually really liked that. Um, the other thing I would, I wanted to try to expanding beyond chat GPT is, um, we have a couple of tools at our disposal. One is, um, is zoom and zoom has a co-pilot feature that like, uh, transcribes your meetings and like action items and like, could even draft follow up emails for you. So I would like to experiment with that for sort of meeting organization, um, and follow up.
45:53.48
tylerking
Yeah, we use that ah for cut for customer service, yeah.
45:58.29
Rick
um Gong we we use, which is like a ah ah customer recording ah ah platform and it has the ability to draft follow-up emails and generate insights about calls. I think I could probably learn a lot more about the conversations we're having with customers as well as um potentially even use that to to draw some insights that I'm not using. So that could be more predictive in nature than even generative generative ah AI. So I think that's another opportunity. um
46:27.22
tylerking
Have you seen demo desk before?
46:29.93
Rick
Nope.
46:30.61
tylerking
Demo desk is one of my favorite SaaS products. It's probably mostly for sales, but we use it for customer service. Um, it's kind of a zoom type of thing, but it has a ton of features that it's specifically for doing a like sales call, basically. So for example, they have playbooks where. You can like preload in all these like slides, and they have these things called battle cards. but So there's different features, but the idea is like, oh, a customer asked about this thing. Push this button, and like it's going to pull up the right slide deck for you. It's already in there.
47:00.20
Rick
the
47:00.32
tylerking
um it It has a lot of that. But then all these SaaS products are layering AI tools on top, and I think most of the time it sucks and it's worthless. Zoom's I'm guessing is very generic because Zoom is a tool that's used for all kinds of stuff. um Demo desk's AI tools, it's it's the same thing you just described, but it's really, really focused on this is a sales call for a tech company. um So for example, it can like evaluate, did like did the person, did our rep cover the topics they were supposed to. And, um, it's yeah, it summarizes the meeting and stuff like that, but I don't know. It it just, I think whatever prompts they're passing into the AI are very like, this is a sales call for a tech company. ah It feels more, more targeted and helpful than just a generic summarize these meeting notes for me.
47:48.42
Rick
Yeah, I think this is like probably a gong competitor.
47:52.15
tylerking
Okay.
47:52.33
Rick
Um, so, but yeah, it looks like they do some things that we are not using a gong or gong doesn't do. So I, I wrote down, I go look at into that. Um, gong is our demo desk. I don't know how, how much of the playbook stuff it can build in to zoom, but we're probably under utilizing. It would be my guess.
48:08.69
tylerking
Well, we don't even use zoom like demo desk is the place that all happens.
48:11.87
Rick
Oh, it's the, oh, they actually do the call.
48:14.34
tylerking
Yeah.
48:15.00
Rick
Ah.
48:15.45
tylerking
And it's super useful. This, this probably matters less to you, but one of the reasons we love it. they will load the thing you're demoing. So in our case, Lessening CRM, it loads it in a virtual machine on their server, which lets both us and the customer control the screen. So it's not like a ah screen share. You're both literally controlling the software in a virtualized browser within the the video call. So for example, we can go click around and then just push a button to give control to the customer. So we can be like, let me show you how this works. Like why don't you drive for a second, go click this button, click that button so we can actually teach them how things work.
48:51.08
tylerking
And then we can take control back when we want. That's the reason we initially switched to it is it's like way, way better as a demo tool. If you're demoing software.
48:59.63
Rick
Interesting. That's helpful to know. Thank you. Any other quick AI things? The other one was con we we have our internal wiki on Confluence. And so it's sort of like Notion AI, just using that more to ah identify duplicate content, um and improve content, shorten content, et cetera, ah prune.
49:17.06
tylerking
Yeah, I don't know how confluence is, is I found notions to be lacking to the point that we, like the problem I've run into with all these, like, whether it's a co-pilot thing and a code editor or notions is like, you want it to have all the context of all the pages and, and like, like, yeah, the prompt you just gave, is there another, uh, document that says the same thing or whatever? What I've found is it's okay at looking at the document you're looking at and treating it like a chat GPT prompt. It, I have not experienced one of these that actually knows your whole knowledge base, like whether it be in front or in notion or wherever, or, or, or in a code editor, like in a code editor, I'll be like, what function should I use to do XYZ? And if it's not in the file that I'm looking at right now, it just does not know the answer to it. That's been my experience.
50:01.56
Rick
Yeah, it's limited to the, to, to your space. that's so That's my concern about confluence too, is that we have so much, uh, legacy, uh, duplicative out of date content that like, it's not reliable as a source of like the, the the source of data it has is not reliable. Therefore it's not reliable.
50:18.13
tylerking
Yeah, what you almost want is like, just have conversations in Slack or whatever, and don't, don't even write documentation, right? Just query the documentation with an AI and it will generate the documentation that you need in the moment. I think that's kind of the dream.
50:31.34
Rick
Yes.
50:31.97
tylerking
I don't think any of it's there right now is, is how I, from what I can tell, but all right, I got to run.
50:38.71
Rick
That was helpful. Thank you.
50:39.94
tylerking
Um, yeah, good talking to you. You're going to read us off.
50:42.68
Rick
Good talking to you. I would like, yeah. Um, if you'd like to ah review past topics, can show notes, visit star up to last.com. See you next week.
50:49.86
tylerking
See ya.