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Tea for Two & Two for Tea is a podcast about payments—where the systems behind every transaction are up for discussion. Hosted by Jordan, it dives into the power dynamics, strategic tensions, and hidden stories shaping the global payment landscape. No hype, no trend-chasing—just thoughtful conversations between two voices, one episode at a time.
Hello dear slippers, payment geeks and everything in between.
I'm sure you're getting used to this gimmick.
I'm really really happy to welcome you to this second episode of Tea for Two and Two for Tea, my podcast.
The objective of this podcast is pretty crystal clear: interviewing people and giving their
views on what shapes the payment industry, catching all the T's and offering them to
you dear slippers.
The perspectives, far from the marketing sponsorship and the vanity noise.
As many of you already know, Spill the Tea on Payments is my platform on the payments
industry where I share opinions, education, inspiration and a bit of debunking.
It's 100% independent with a touch of humour and fantasy.
I'm Jordan Graison, your Good Payment Friend and host on this podcast.
I was very honoured to be in Zagreb, Croatia, to welcome my second guest last March.
I'm grateful to have received Goran Bosankic, CRO of Field39, a holistic card solution for
merchants and industry.
Goran is a funny specimen.
He made a whole career in software development for finance and payment, core banking system
and card payment system in a country with a high penetration of cash.
Yeah, such a paradox.
With a heritage of high cash usage and also Croatia was part of Yugoslavia until the early
1990s, a communist country where you can guess card payment was not really present.
They transitioned recently to the euro, adding another layer of interest and complexity.
Hence, if someone can analyze the heated debate in digital payment versus cash, but also analyze
with precision the hypes and fates, Goran is the perfect person.
With Goran, we explored the intricacy of cash and digital payment, using Croatia as
a good example and why it is too easy to say cash is dead, long life digital payments,
central bank digital currencies and instant schemes.
We made a quick stop on the super app station and explored the hypes of the industry, including
the omnichannel promise and why it is still difficult for the industry to sell it.
And finally, we explored the relationship between paytech and banks.
Are banks really behind?
Did they lose ground?
This is what we aim to discover.
Allez, let's go.
Let's spill the tea.
Tea for two.
And two for tea.
Hosted by Jordan Grazen.
Episode 2 Goran Bosankic.
Hi Goran.
Hi Jordan.
So you're my second guest in the podcast and I'm really, really happy to have you.
So I wanted to open the conversation with you on cash.
Oh boy.
Because cash and Croatia are good friends, really good friends.
Like I've read on the internet and it was a figure from global data that 64.5% of transactions
In Croatia are still made in cash in 2022.
So it's a huge number.
And that's interesting because it's not the case somewhere else in European Union.
Of course, if you think about Germany and Austria, but it's still a high rate.
And it's even more interesting to talk about cash with you and about Croatia because of
the recent introduction of euro.
Like you guys, I mean, you arrived in 2023, if I'm not wrong, first January of 2023.
No, 2024.
With a lot of problems, of course, and difficulties for consumers.
And I guess it must have reactivated some debates around the existence of cash and the
existence of euro.
So I wanted to know why Croatians are so in love with cash, according to you.
Yeah, well, I'll disagree with you because when you look at the overall average throughout
Europe, you mentioned Germany and Austria, which are really cash-prone countries, regardless
of the perception somebody has.
And I beg to differ on that because I believe the card market here in Croatia is much more
developed to some other countries compared to some other countries in the region.
We are not, let's say I agreed in terms that cash is still in 2022.
It's a tricky statistics because we're talking COVID post-COVID and pre-euro.
And you have to understand that a lot of cash went out on the market prior to the euro exchange.
I'm talking big tickets, purchasing real estates and things like that for various reasons.
I think the numbers, we have a report from the National Bank coming out each June, July
on the overall payment and cards and cash statistics.
And you will see the numbers for 2024.
I'm estimating we are going 50-50, perhaps a little bit more in the favor of cash, which
is, I would say, in line with the surrounding countries on the Western part.
If you go Eastern, I mean, Bulgaria, I think is in the 70 plus ratio for the cash still.
In our country, for example, one large part of that, I mean, the economy, that's always
favored cash.
We are heavily touristically oriented country.
And for example, I mean, although car payment is ubiquitous and every...
And compulsory because of tourism.
Yes.
And every citizen in Croatia has a payment card.
Statistics shows that, I think, in average, two cards per person.
And technologically, we are, I mean, if you look at the number of point of sale terminals,
the ratio of number of point of sale of point of sales compared to the ratio towards the
number of people, I mean, we are pretty high, really, really, really high.
I think we are top five or something.
So the lack of infrastructure is definitely not the issue here.
But for example, there are some small things for coffee shops, like bars and coffee shops.
OK, if you go downtown, you know, touristy places, you'll be able to pay with card.
But most of the coffee shops work only with cash.
Today, that cash is actually more expensive if you look at the overall big picture than
compared to car payments, to digital payments.
But for them, it doesn't play a significant role.
I mean, still, it's cash.
It's something that's tangible.
It's something that they can use as a revolving asset immediately, which is an important factor
because they can pay vendors.
I mean, you'll pay for the coffee.
He'll take that money and pay his vendor for milk or whatever.
Just, you know, I'm oversimplifying it, but just for the sake of the argument.
And yes, the small tickets, if you talk about car payments, that plays a role.
Not only the price of transaction, but many, many, many acquirers.
This is slowly changing with the entrance of new players onto the market, which need
to fight. They need to fight with fees, with numbers.
But many acquirers for many years did like a penalty fees.
If you don't have enough volume, then you have to pay for the device.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's like 20, 30, 50 euro doesn't matter.
But look, somebody who has a daily turnover of, I don't know, a thousand euros, 50 euros,
it's a penalty. It's a penalty for them.
And they cannot commit because traditionally, I mean, I'm taking my coins out and I'm paying
for the drink. I'm not taking out my card.
So it will take time to transition from being cash payment in these kind of establishments
to car payments. And do you think there is like a sort of also historical reasons or
linked to the past and to the fact that Croatia was part of Yugoslavia and the development
of electronic payment? I mean, in Yugoslavia, they didn't have electronic payment.
They didn't exist formally. Well, yes.
Yeah, I mean, we had cards. I mean, actually, we had I think the American Express was the
first card that led to this specific issue of installments in Croatia that you know about.
But yeah, it was a cash, you know, prone country area all over with inflation,
very often just reducing the value of the of the money.
Yeah. And you also have the imperial inflation
consecutively to the collapse of Yugoslavia. That also, yeah, how do you can you develop
a stable payment infrastructure when your macroeconomic is not stable?
And still and still you have I mean, we are talking about we are still I mean,
we are not transitional country anymore. No, it's finished.
It's residue. I mean, those people are still here. And you still have I mean,
we have a vast ATM network, although this is declining also. We need to, you know,
establish a fact that cards are rising, cash is declining, declining in this country.
So the trend is in favor of of cards. And you still have people who use
the ATM because it's legal obligation. You have to pay on the account. Everybody has to have an
account. They go to the ATM. They withdraw all the cash and then they use it in some some areas.
You know, it's different based on the area based on the age.
Yeah. You know, the young people,
I mean, I have I have tickets. I have 19. I have 14 and I have two.
Yeah. So the latter one, she will God knows what she will. She will not use cash. I don't know if
she will use card because those two, they rather use Apple Pay than card. Yeah. For some reason,
I don't have the explanation, to be honest. I mean, the business and everything is like,
yeah, I have it here and I will use it on the phone. But he's familiar with, you know,
doing digital payments. But still, you know, he has a bakery next to his school that doesn't
have card acceptance. So he has to pay with cash. And, you know, as the time goes by,
these guys and girls who are paying with cards will prevail definitely. And this will go up.
But look, we saw the scenarios in some other countries. You saw the Sweden, which is really,
you know, card, card, card. And at one point, they had to reverse a bit. Yeah. And they had to.
Yeah, because they were no cash. Yeah. I mean, still, it's a, let's be honest, it's a legal tender.
It's there. It works. It doesn't need battery. It doesn't need infrastructure. It needs, you know,
hands exchanging the legal tender for payment. Do I see it dying in the near future? No. And it
depends also on the geopolitical situation, because, you know, first time when infrastructure
does a hiccup, everybody say, okay, I would rather have some cash with me. Cash is invisible
still today. I mean, in some part, of course, you cannot. I agree. It's like it's really difficult,
because this is something I always amazed in the statistics, especially even this, you know,
64.5% from global data is how did they find it? Because paying by cash is invisible. Yeah. So
it's really difficult to formally says, okay, it's 60.5% of all transactions. Because yes,
you have a trace of digital payments, because it's easy. You can trace them. But how do you
trace cash? Yeah. Okay. So I can give you that information. That actually is easy, because we
have, at least for if you talk about creation, I'm talking about to other countries, we have
very advanced fiscalization system where we have we introduced, I cannot remember. And you see,
this is where it's getting interesting, because actually, because you have a constraints, so you
must evaluate the number the number the numbers of transaction you're doing by cash, you're getting
creative, and you find some ways to trace it. Yeah, you know, because this is something that is not
always obvious. And you cannot always find the figures on you know, if you go to some
website of different, you know, central banks, it's not always easy. And the ECB also is not really
like don't have a lot of statistics on cash circulation, because it's difficult. And you
see with the constraint of the fact that people use a lot of cash, we can finally find some work
around solution to estimate approximately, you know, of course, there will always be some informal
economy, but yeah, and cash still can exist, you know, so this is also why I was asking you this
question about, you know, cash being obsolete and expensive. Obviously, you can find some work around
solution. And I also read that in Croatia, you even have some logistic centers that are that
belongs to the state the FINA, right? And those financial agency that those guys can distribute
cash, it's a state initiative. So it belongs to the state. And not to brings not to loom is
it's it's here. It's official. It's the state and I think it was interesting to I mean, it was
interesting to mention it because it changed a bit the narrative around cash, like we can make
something with cash without, you know, saying that it's expensive or it's obsolete. It's just
another way of using it. I told them I'm 20 years in this industry. I heard cash dying so many times.
I'm not arguing that it's going and it's natural that it goes. Yeah, I mean, let's let's be really
honest, it would be stupid to say no, no, it will prevail and is the best thing. But I don't see
dying in such a pace that is going to disappear in the next 10, 15, 20 years, unless something,
you know, dramatically changes because the people are against it. I'm not talking only
in Croatia. I'm talking, you know, all over Europe. I talked with some people last year when
discussion about them, you know, digital euro and digital identity and everything.
And he's from Germany, the guy I talked to. And I said, OK, I mean, what do you think, how the
Germans will react? They are 50, 50 cash. They don't like control, etc. How will they accept it?
And he said they will not. So, OK, I mean, we'll see. But the point is, I mean, people will find
a way to keep it alive for a long, long, long time. As I said, unless somebody will say enough.
Is enough cannot always say that cash is going to disappear. Which leads to my
which leads, sorry, to my questions around cash heavy economies. And there is a lot of people
saying, OK, so if it was a cash heavy economies, the leapfrog, I mean, they tend to go directly
from cash to digital payments, you know, with wallets and MPSA and stuff like you just mentioned
previously. Do you think it's happening or it's something that should be much more nuanced?
Like this idea of, OK, we don't go from the so we go from cash. We don't go from cash to card to
wallet roughly, but from cash to directly to wallet and super electronic solutions, super app and
all the things that you can hear around. Oh, that's a heavy question. So I'm speaking from
from my point of view comes from the fact that I really did all those things throughout my career.
Yeah. Wallets, cards, ATMs, banks, everything. And like you said, I think it's much, much,
much more nuanced than it can be a leapfrog from one to another. Because I mentioned that you
mentioned MPSA also, you know, at one point it was really crazy how everybody referenced to MPSA,
that's it. That's the next big thing. Everybody will do it. I actually participated at that time
at the company where I was in Romania in one project where huge telco wanted to introduce MPSA
in Romania. And this is the same problem we had with Alipay in the super app. You cannot
make a super app everywhere. It doesn't work because there were a context in China that allows
and financial Alipay mother's company and we chat 10 cent to create a whole wallet to fit
to the Chinese consumers. I was a part of a panel a few years ago with really, you know,
one of the participants was the guy I don't know if you know about the CACS pay from Croatia,
which today has like half a million users. It's a peer to peer. It's a fintech made by
Ersta Bank here in Croatia. And the panel was in a college, one of our most prestigious college
for IT. And he was talking about, you know, Chinese students were like, yeah, that's great.
And I said, okay, I would like to tone it down. Be inspired by China. Why not? With things they did.
If you talk about payments, we chat Alipay and, you know, face ID's and that, but you cannot
replicate it. No, because we are, you know, China is one country with, you know, if they say
everybody must allow for face ID to be used, then everybody will use face ID here.
I mean, where do I start? We could do another episode of a podcast.
27 countries. I mean, we can expand to EA more than 30 different cultures, languages,
politics, influence. Yeah. So I mean, it's GDPRs, I mean, whatever you try in that direction,
it will fail miserably altogether. So that's why I think that not all things are applicable,
especially when you're going back to original questions, you know, leaping from cash to some
super high digital app channel. I mean, we talk in the payment industry, especially
us who are now related closer to the card industry. We really, really talk a lot and we've seen a lot.
I've seen a lot of failed projects and you know, there are some, I mean, payment is, and I wrote
quite often about it. Payment is the least desirable part of making a purchase.
You remember I put a post on LinkedIn, you know, we need to work hard so nobody notices us.
You, as a consumer, you don't want to know about it. I mean, me as a consumer, I'm geeky,
I'm geeking out because that's what I do. But if you, you know, as a private person,
just want, you know, pay and that's it. I don't want to have 15 steps doing QR, this and that,
holding my ear to pay something like, yeah, this is glass. I want to get up and I want that.
It's finished. And that is finished. And you make a good transition for me because it's,
it's, I was about to come on that, but it's, it's related to your question about, I know,
to leap where? We can leap from cash to card. To do what? I mean, we will need to, obviously,
and this is going to happen because it's more convenient. You don't need ATMs, you need cash.
You can, you know, have one piece of plastic or whatever it is to pay. But why should we transition
to some other form of payments? That's the question. And you know, I like this, I like when
you say, because it resonates with what my previous guests say in the previous episode.
She said, and because we were talking about Omnichannel and I was about to come on that
and she said, people don't care about Omnichannel. They really don't care. Like if you ask the
consumer, they don't care about Omnichannel. What they want is convenience. Exactly. Interoperability
and convenience. Those are for me the holy grail. I have three things that I always mention in terms
of payment systems overall. Interoperability, convenience, and safety. Not security, safety.
Because this is what you get with current system that you are doing. So if you take out your card,
you are here in Zagreb, you're from France, you go to the restaurant down there. You want to be
sure you can pay. And so coming to my question, I wanted to ask you also, because obviously there
is a tension between e-commerce and face-to-face payment, because we talk about Omnichannel. So we
have to coin a word to talk about the fact that it was not converging. So do you see now there
is a convergence or this is kind of a word that looks nice on the paper. We could make a survey
among the payment, among the seller, among people, among sales that sell payment services and asking
them did you already sell both of them. I'm sure we will find some interesting figures. I did both.
I was selling e-commerce. So you did both. You're an exception, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know.
So do you feel like there is a convergence or not? Look, there is a huge initiative going on by the
schemas, you know, about the network tokenization and everything. When you say people don't care
about Omnichannel, they care about convenience. It's going to stay, you know, I'm going to write
it in gold letters. No, you should. I'm going to credit the person who said this and said,
okay, you will get full credit in gold letters. But that's the truth. Remember the eBay and all.
I mean, how many stuff would you buy if you had to get up from your chair, take your card,
type in all those numbers, you know, click this, click that card about abandonment.
So it would be through the roof. Yeah. Yeah. You had the payment method where we want to pay. Yeah.
Click, click. Poof. It's done. It's done. And the issue with e-commerce, okay, when we talk about
face to face payments, you have the speed, which is crucial. You have the reliability.
I mean, you cannot fail in face to face payments. Yeah. Physical payments. Yeah.
E-commerce is a bit different. You do have more time, but the friction needs to be taken away.
Okay. It needs to be smooth. It must require much less, you know, it doesn't need to involve your
or your involvement as a customer. You need to put it to minimum. Plus you have the merchant side
of that, which is much more. I mean, if you talk about physical payments, you have the device,
plug it in, you put it there. Eventually they have integration with cash register, but
all in all, you know, it's a black box for them. Here it affects the whole customer journey,
in e-commerce, you know, to integrate it with web shop. If it's not integrated,
if it's hostile payment page, how does it look? Does it affect the branding?
Is it synchronized with the backend? Because, you know, when you pay, if I don't have those shoes
and you pay for them, then it's a nightmare and all those things. This is why it's. So the sales guy
in e-commerce is actually cleverer than the guy in face to face because the face to face guy
sells black boxes, right? I don't want to go into that part, but there are more nuances
in the e-commerce part compared to the physical payments. Because here it goes to speed and cost
at the end. I mean, especially for large volumes, you know, if you give me 0.1, I don't care if the
terminal is blue, black or white. I wanted to use your extensive knowledge, working with banks,
paytags and big retailers, because you work with them a lot and you still work with them a lot.
To talk more about the relationship between paytags and banks. Because what is interesting
and what I'm seeing is like, first, there always have been some confrontation between both.
Is it volunteer or not? I don't know, but I've always feel attention between banks and paytags,
the way that they are interacting together. Secondly, correct me if I'm wrong,
and potentially you will correct me. But I always feel like banks never took a big interest in
retail payment. For them, it was a foot on the door to sell something more, to sell more services.
At the end, they just felt, okay, it's a cost for me and it's not going to bring me business.
I can get this business from another way. So I'm just going to sell everything or
acquiring services to someone else. And this is why I think we got a concentration of actors,
to the paytags. And it's the perfect example of the destiny of Nexie or Wordline. This is
what happened roughly. It's like banks decided to sell everything to them. But now with the
success of AddIn and Stripe, because it's on the mouth of everyone,
did the banks finally change their mind and decided to go back
and say, okay, retail payment is finally interesting for me?
This needs to be answered based on which region are you talking about. If you're talking about
Croatia and these countries here, we have a specific situation of being transition countries.
And here, the banks have been sole owner of the acquiring business from the beginning.
It was a regulatory requirement?
No, but there were no AddIn, Stripe, or Six, or whatever those companies that were already
established on the Western market. Here, in this part of the world, they are providing financial
services, handling cash, handling everything. It was natural for them to bundle it and to offer,
at first point, physical payments. Later came the e-commerce. E-commerce became much more, let's say,
decoupled from the banks, a lot of payment gateways, payfax, etc. But the acquiring,
each bank has its own POS network, and it was natural.
Is it a natural business for them? No, I don't think that acquiring is a natural business for
banks, especially in a fragmented market like Croatia and the other surrounding countries.
Because we are every man for his own here. We don't have central switches, infrastructures.
Every bank has its own acquiring technology, terminals. They're quite separate.
So you have three terminals on the table?
Nine at one point. There is another thing to that story, the installments.
It's related to installments. Relative installments, which are acquiring based.
If you go through schemas, this doesn't work. So it had to be terminal connected directly to the
acquirer. Installments are very popular here, which is basically leading me to another part of this
clash that you are saying between Paytech and banks. By now pay later was a really great example
of that. Because Paytech entered into the area, which is, let's say, natural for the banks.
From the beginning, banks are here to keep and lend money. Everything else is a service.
This is their job. This is their job. And then BMPL came,
okay, we will lend money, but we will just
forget about all the other stuff related to loans. And that did not turn out very well.
I mean, we are specific here in Croatia. By now pay later never went off because we have like 36
installments interest free. And developed a market with a competitive market, I would say.
Competitive and developed. And there have been some tries, but they died miserably. All Paytech
should follow. Banks should be there to provide the basic services. This is what's happening
in these last years. And I'm seeing, I mean, for example, you will hear in Money Motion
the initiative from one large bank here in Croatia doing the Fintech Hub, where they want to
talk with Fintechs, with Paytechs. They will provide the basic services. So we have, you know,
banking license, they can hold money, have the accounts, have the infrastructure,
and you guys build on top of it. And I think this is the right direction because it's hard for them
to be agile and to be fast on the market. I was able to come on that. So you made a perfect
transition, transitions. Yeah. I'm very open to talk about that because I was in the banking
business also for several years. And it was like, oh, yeah, they slow. They don't understand. They
don't look. They understand very often. But isn't it a bit too late? Because I was about to ask you
that, you know, I've seen, yeah, they are reconsidering their position. You know, EPI,
of course, is a big, you know, thing. Sempa Instampayment. So isn't it a bit too late?
Is ADIEN, you know, did ADIEN win the war? You know, it's like, or it's only a battle.
Well, I mean, ADIEN is in payments. OK. Yeah. OK. They have like this banking part that they want
to introduce. But I mean, there cannot be only one and there cannot be one. And banks, I mean,
the funny thing, if you look, for example, I think in 2024, they did a survey on digital banking in
Germany where some of the banks were ahead of N26 and some of the digital digital parts. OK.
And I had the chance to work with some of them and I had the chance to dig deeper under the surface
to see how bad it is. And if you look at the last two years, you will see a lot of them being
scrutinized by the regulators. Yeah. Finally, because they do not do well, the KYC, onboarding
procedures, this and that, everything that is like bread and butter for the... So you expect a sort of
backlash from the regulators because there have been a sort of euphoria after the, especially in
Europe, after the adoption of PSD1 and 2, like everybody wanted to become a fintech. And this is
still like a motto that everybody's, I mean, I still hear it a lot, you know, everybody should
be a fintech. And you feel that there will be a backlash from regulators? If you talk about backlash,
yeah, backlash will happen to those who are not doing things properly, which is happening for the
last two years, actually, regardless, is it payment or some banking services? So you think it's not
related to payment, but much more broader on fintechs? On fintechs, you know, going into
regulation, because regulation is expensive. You cannot say I'm leveling, you know, I'm playing
in the same field. Yeah, and this is always, you know, where it puts the business of fintechs at
risk, actually, it's the cost of compliance. It's where it's getting complicated. It's just when you
want to scale your business, you can start with not taking care of a lot of compliance. But if you
want to build a serious business, compliance becomes essential. And when it becomes essential,
it becomes expensive. Yes, we'll see what will happen in the near future. I expect a lot more
collaboration is happening right now. You know, to cut the long story short, banks providing
background services, especially now with the SEPA IP and everything. And the paytags are riding on
that infrastructure. You always make my transition, which is perfect, you know, so I shouldn't do my
work. I can leave the room. It's fine. Okay, so I wanted to wrap up the conversation we just had.
And I wanted to ask you, you know, about how do you see industry moving before 2030? And you just
already start, you know, kind of. If you asked me one year ago, I would give you a straightforward
answer. If you ask me today, which you are, which I'm doing, which you are doing.
I think, I don't know what to tell you, Jordan. And you know why? Because of things that are
happening right now. Yeah, because of geopolitical tensions, because of many things that we used to
consider as EPI and everything. I mean, there was this great article that you commented on,
on UPI, which I'm always quoting as a bad example of what is being done in Europe right now. And
what happened just two days ago, you know, the association is asking for, you know, additional
payments to be imposed on those transactions, which are free right now. But don't you think for
the UPI example, which is Unified Payment Interface, which is used in India, it's an instant payment
scheme, is also a question. I mean, they were not at the same state as us. I mean, in terms of
payment of development of digital payments, you know, I think UPI was a great thing for India and
first step because they had nothing. So you had to start with something and then so you needed to
find something. So bring people, you know, adopting digital payments. So how do you do it? Like by
offering free transactions, roughly, even if, you know, it led to a concentration of the market,
you could also consider that payment is not, it could be for free. I mean, it's just, of course,
you don't make a market out of it, but it says that, yeah, it's an infrastructure.
End of the day, for us consumers, it is free. So if something is, you know, 100 euros and I swipe my
card, it will take 100 euros from my account. So somebody, so what you're saying is like somebody
must pay. Somebody must pay for the innovation at the end of the day. Somebody must pay. I mean,
even if you say electricity, water, somebody is paying for it. You are paying the bills. Those
bills are collected somewhere and that money is used to maintain the infrastructure, to introduce
new things, to, you know, do whatever it takes to keep it. I mean, if we take the same analogy here,
I mean, if the system is not paying for itself through fees and everything that is natural,
I mean, who will? And I mean, we can close with that. I mean, if there is no business incentive,
there will be no innovation, you know, making it free for everybody will not drive the innovation
because you need to invest money to come up with some solution at the end of the day and to keep
it running. And if you don't see any business incentive out of it, you will not do it. So
what will happen with European payments in the infrastructure? I just want to end with
allow SEPA instant payment. I think this is a, those are the great trails because, you know,
if they will remain in this shape, I mean, we have the issue of 10 seconds and chargebacks
and everything, but I think it could change a lot if being implemented properly and it gives
a room really for a lot of innovation on the payment market. But how this will be done,
it remains to be seen in the next, I would say one year altogether. Perfect. Thank you very much.
You did well the exercise. I mean, it's just, you are an efficient guest because you did the
you nearly did. I mean, I could have just wrote a question and leave the room. You know,
you could have done it. So thank you very much for your time. It was a pleasure to have you.
Thank you for inviting me. It was really a pleasure for me.
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Thank you very much for listening to this episode and see you next time. Bye bye.