031 | Building brands bottom-up balancing Nordic minimalism with Italian flair | with Joonas Mäkilä, Co-founder of Mother's Milk Beverages (Helsinki, FI & Prague, CZ)

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In episode 031, Chris Maffeo had the honor of meeting in person with Joonas Mäkilä, a close friend and Co-founder of Mother's Milk Beverages, a Spirits Company based in Finland. He is a Finnish Commercial Advisor with two decades of experience in FMCG multinationals, private equity-backed hospitality groups, and other industries. We hope you will enjoy their chat.

This is a video episode if you watch it on Spotify.

About the Host: Chris Maffeo

About the Guest: Joonas Mäkilä

Time Stamps

(2:00); Lingoncello Launch

(9:10); Breaking Into Outlets

(11:50); Taking Advantage of The Back Bar

(13:50); A Outlet Owner's View of Attempted Sales

(18:38); Small & Big Brands

(28:45); Brand Stories

(38:00); Target Occasion > Target Consumer

(40:20); Expand Or Focus Distribution

(50:00) Win at Home

(57:00); Internal Competition

(1:02:35); Cash Efficiency

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Joonas Makila

Chief Commercial Officer | The Habit Factory

What is MAFFEO DRINKS Leadership Insights?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
podcast.

I'm your host Chris Mafia.
In episode 31, I had the honor

of meeting in person with Jonas
Makila.

He's a close friend and Co
founder of Mother's Milk

Beverages, a spirits company
based in Finland.

He's a Finnish commercial
advisor with two decades of

experience in FMCG
multinationals as well as in

privately backed hospitality
groups and other industries.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.
Jonas Maguila, Thanks for

coming.
Welcome to my third drinks

podcast.
Thank you, Chris Mafel and

welcome to Ragazzi.
Fantastic and thanks for hosting

us in this fantastic venue,
Ragazzi in here in Prague.

I'm usually coming and sitting
on the other side, but today we

have a nice, a nice little
corner to chat and you bring a

great experience.
Jonas and I know each other from

17 years, I think. 2006, I would
say, yeah.

And back in Finland, in
Helsinki, that's where we met.

And then you moved to Prague.
Then after a while, I moved to

Prague and I reached out to you
and I said I'm moving to Prague

as well.
And now we live 400 meters

apart.
Exactly.

So pick Colomondo.
Exactly.

And in the meantime, you've been
a customer of mine with Peron in

Finland.
And now you're a customer of

mine and now again, like I'm a
customer of your restaurant and

this is a nice way to explain
how the drinks ecosystem works.

And what I'm always talking
about like it's not only a brand

owner and a restaurant owner,
the distributors, this big

companies, the big brand,
there's a community of people

moving where like in the
meantime, without knowing, we

found out that we had like 10s
and 203050 people that we knew.

Absolutely.
Friends of each other and so on.

And this is the old thing and
the beauty about the industry

now.
Absolutely.

And you are a big marketing guy.
You've been a marketing director

in Mars, you've been doing all
sort of things.

You have your brands, you have
your vodka brands, you have a

Lingon Cello that you just
launched and you own a

restaurant.
You have been working for one of

the biggest restaurant group in
the Nordix.

You can play a lot of hats.
In this, Yeah, no, absolutely.

I love playing a lot of hats.
And now I work also with a lot

of other companies besides my
own.

But in terms of being a brand
owner now, I obviously work with

the liquor industry and as well
as with restaurants.

And it's very nice to be here
today and I'm looking forward

for the conversation.
So awesome.

Yeah, awesome.
So let's start.

I mean like since you are a big
branding guy, how do you start?

I mean you, you launch your own
brand, you work for big

companies, but you also launch
your own brand.

So where do you start?
Do you start from the liquid or

do you start from the brand
world?

So you start straight away with
that.

We both know that we disagree.
So I start with the story and

the concept.
So I know that you talk a lot

about in your previous podcast
and obviously as a friend I know

that you believe in the power of
the product.

I think it's lies probably
somewhere in between when it

comes to the first Spirit brand
that we launched together with

my partners in 2000 and. 13 It
was called the Ballast of

Sliders, which is a heritage
brand in Finland.

That obviously comes from the
story from the wartime and how

the troops were having this
cognac cut with vodka, which is

a Finnish national drink
basically that comes from the

history.
So that's all about the story.

So we came with the concept, we
found out that it was in

trademark, it marked and
basically got ours our IP rights

and then went to the liquid.
So then we actually found.

As a manufacturer partners,
distribution partners and we

started making it the vodka and
the cut Cognac lake as is called

in Finland.
But we started with the story

because we knew that that would
be something that would be very

appealing to the domestic crowd
especially.

And to be honest now with the
Lingongella that we can talk a

little bit about more as well.
We started with the story.

So we found out that obviously
limongella.

Is as you very well know, it's a
very traditional Italian drink

that globally known.
And then we have an Arctic Berry

called lingonberry, which has a
lot of similarities when it

comes to limoncello and lemon.
So it's tart, it's a little bit

bitter, but then with sugar and
good ingredients you make it

this a combination that it's a
little bit of a mix of both

sweetness and tartness or
bitterness and then obviously

Lingongello as a name and as a
brand.

It's something that creates in
the customers or clients mind

so-called Co creation when you
go oh lingonberries,

Lingongello, oh I got it and the
brand sticks in the mind much

better than just a random brand
name.

So the concept was their first
and again we knew who makes the

best liquors in the country and
in the market.

So again we came up with the
concept, introduced the concept

to them and they basically after
making 70 years of Berry

liquors, they were like.
The moment of silence said why

didn't we get this once?
But again, now they're our joint

venture partners Ling that
Bisbon in Finland.

So again, I think it both have
to deliver to have a good story

to tell and then obviously you
have to have a product that

delivers.
But in my mind, concept comes

first.
That's the headline.

And then it comes with the
branding.

It comes with the bottle, it
comes with the liquid, and the

liquid is just one part of it.
Their whole concept of life, I

wouldn't even say like we
disagree.

It's more how you put the foot
in the door and explaining it to

the customer.
So my point is more like when

somebody comes here to the
restaurant, they are not

interested in the lingo and
cello as a brand yet they are

more interested as the liquid.
So they look for for an occasion

which could be an aperitif or it
could be like a digestive or

whatever you are focusing on.
And then they see, OK, this is a

with lingonberries.
Oh, actually I like

lingonberries.
And this is the selling story

that the waiter or the barman is
is telling that makes the

discovery of the brand from a
commercial point of view.

And then you go into the brand
world because OK, oh, actually I

want to find out more.
So what are the lingonberries?

I've never heard about them.
And then you enter the world.

So it's a little bit of a top
down and bottom up coming

together.
Absolutely.

And as you say, brands are built
bottom up.

But I think it's both ways.
First of all, and I'm a big fan

of your podcast.
I have to listen because you

tell me to.
But no, I love them.

But I think Nordics are a very
good place to practice being an

entrepreneur in the spiritual
industry because it's very hard.

First of all, it's a very high
tax, taxing on the spirits, but

it's also a dark market and
you're not able to advertise and

promote the spirits and that's
why the storytelling.

And especially the role of on
trade is very high.

So that's basically in the
restaurants, in hotels, wherever

you are able to have your
product in the bars, that's

where you tell the story.
But I personally think that

nowadays the story's telling the
stars already most of the times

outside the bar just because of
social.

So a good example which we got
lucky with because we started

the idea of Linguancello came to
life in 2016 and before we got

it in the market in March this
year.

It took us 6-7 years, first of
all to get the product right,

get the trademarks, because we
invented a new word that was

Sierra.
Google had something on Jello.

So we got the IP rights in the
major global market.

And then this thing called COVID
came.

It wasn't the best time to
start.

So finally we're now in the
market.

But what happened in the
meantime actually Limon Jello,

so the origin of the base of the
idea actually came to light.

So.
In 2016, Limoncello was still

that bottle in the freezer that
you sometimes remember to take

after dinner and have a
digestion from Italy.

Yeah.
And then suddenly, especially in

the Nordics, I think it started
in Sweden, Limoncello sprit came

into life, then it came to life
in Finland.

It was chosen the drink of the
year, I think 2018 or 2019, I

cannot remember but the exact
year.

But Limoncello was able to build
that occasion.

So, but I think again.
I'm not necessarily sure whether

it started from the bars
recommending suddenly to have a

limoncello spritz.
I think it started from some

influencers, you know, maybe
some recipes in the print

magazines, and then obviously
the early adapters in the bars

picked it up and then started
recommending it.

But I think before people even
come to the bar, they already

have an idea or they might have
an idea.

Oh, I want to try this out
because I saw this in there.

I saw this in there so.
That plays a big role.

But I think in terms of when it
comes to bars, I think it's all

about getting the bars excited.
And not just the staff excited,

but it's not just about getting
the owners excited.

It's actually the people who
work in the bars.

I'm a big believer there hasn't
been that many mentioning about

in your podcast about staff
engagement programs, staff

incentives.
Yeah.

So I'm a big believer working
for the first of Royal

Restaurants and then after that
with the Nordic Hospitality

partners.
We saw the biggest results many

times with engaging the staff in
some way with with the product.

We did it together back in the
days we.

Did it together.
That's one of 1 chapters in our

friendship and business.
Yeah, yeah, we launched Patron

in 2015 in Finland.
Yeah.

And again, what was the best
result?

2015. 2016 was incentives for
for the staff.

And I think that's something
that you need to 1st engage the.

The staff, the people behind the
bar or the way the waiters and

the waitresses.
Yeah, before you engage the

customer, Exactly.
I'm a big believer in that and

let's talk about this.
There is a difference between

the hunting and the farming side
of things of this.

So what you're talking about
now, it's more like the farming.

So the product is already
listed, but it's not moving.

So it needs some help on a staff
incentive and motivation to the

bar team and the wait team.
But how does it start before?

So when I want to get into your
bar, how does it usually happen?

Does it happen top down or
bottom up?

Is it you coming with your
network and you select the

brand?
Or sometimes the bar stuff is

actually.
Have tried it somewhere in a bar

and they bring the idea to you.
I think it's both.

Again, I know brands are built
bottom up, but I think this

approach is also from top down.
So Finland is a little bit

particular market because we
call it the tribe.

We're a small country, everybody
in the industry in the ecosystem

as you talk know each other.
So I think we use together with

my partners, we use a lot of our
network and obviously my roles

in the past got to know a lot of
the restaurateurs and top bars

and such.
I think in that sense we use

that network.
But again, if there is something

that is interesting for example
from APR point of view, people

saw that in media.
They like the idea.

They tried it themselves.
That's also top to bottom.

So if you're able to create some
kind of interest or hype around

the product and then people
actually order without a

salesperson or distributor
visiting that.

So it goes both ways.
Obviously, there's the direct

sales and indirect sales.
And I think in the finished

market, the indirect sales are
very, very important.

You have to be able to create
that kind of pool.

And then obviously from the
bottom up, there's going to be a

little bit of push as well.
When it comes to what your

mantra is about, it's better to
have one case in a bar than 10

bottles in 10 bars.
I'm a big believer in that,

especially when it comes to
small brands and small players

like us.
Obviously we don't have the

resources just to scale it up
and make the whole country have

Lingoncello in their bars.
Like this summer when we were

launching in Hawk, we focused on
the main outlets that we want it

to be.
And then, for example, in Lulu,

which is probably the most
famous Finnish sauna restaurant

in Helsinki.
We had a staff incentive program

for the whole summer and
obviously wanted to tap into

their customer base, which is
very trendy and early adapters

and obviously tried to also
build them the visibility

through their social media
channels and such.

And then we focused on a couple
of other places in in as well

similar sauna restaurants where
we knew that the occasion with

the Linguilla script would be
there and then what the results

look like.
It was the right choice to this

point like this.
What do you think is the real

reason?
Like the back bar is a crowded

place?
Yes, I speak a lot about this

with people, with customers and
there's a tendency to like flood

the market, know if you have the
muscles and the resources, of

course, because if you don't,
then it's a luxury problem to

have.
But having one bottle everywhere

and basically collecting dust on
the shelf, that's what makes the

bottle sink behind other
bottles.

Or like, it doesn't just like
move, but if you really convince

the bar owner and the bar staff
to sell it, then you're

basically tapping on the
existing loyal consumers in the

restaurant and they start to
really see it.

And then in four or five bars
you actually make a big

difference from PR ability
perspective.

Yeah, absolutely.
And I think the key is that if

you want to get it to a bar,
make sure that it rotates off

the shelf.
Because if it doesn't, if you're

able to get the bottle in the
bar, but it doesn't rotate

because whether it's your
product or in this case your

effort that you're not able to
dedicate, not focused and

customer management and helping
them sell, sell that product,

then the next time the cocktail
menu is going to be changed, the

owner or the GM or the barman,
whoever has the responsibility

to look at the sales and what's
rotating, it's going to take

that and that's it.
And that's very hard to get back

there.
So I think the key is that

you're able to give the bar and
the restaurant reasons why I

motivate them, show them, give
them to us on how to get that

liquid to the class and then
liquid to the lips and then

hopefully the product delivers
and then these customers will

order again.
But I think the key is that

don't put it there on the shelf
and just tick the box that oh,

we got another distribution
point, we got another out on

trade outlet and then leave it
there together, dust if you're

not able to.
Help it get out of the shelf as

well and and talking about this,
what's your experience as a

restaurant owner where in
Finland or here in in Prague

about like sales teams coming to
visit you and like helping the

rotation of the brand.
We discussed the stuff

incentives, but that's I would
say that's the top part.

You know like that's the best
you can do if you have the

budget if you have a great
relationship with the bar.

But what can brands do when I
don't know you and I'm here and

I just managed to list my
product to your bar restaurant

and I don't yet have the
relationship or the budget or

what's your experience like?
Do they come to you?

Do they visit you often or do
they just as you sell, drop the

bottle, disappear and that's
done.

We're selling Ragazzi.
I think this is my one of my

favorite topics.
So earlier when I was working

with the restaurants together
with my partner, we were dealing

with all the the alcohol
suppliers and the negotiations

and then also the activations.
And at that point we had 10s of

restaurants.
And then obviously after forming

together with the rest amongst
the nautical fatality partners,

I was as I was as commercial
director and I wasn't dealing

with that anymore that much, but
I was, I was witnessing from the

marketing and sales perspective
on on what the suppliers do.

But now having a restaurant on
my own, I think it's the same.

I think it's the same.
So whether it's 10s or hundreds

of restaurants or just one, I
think the approach from the

suppliers is still the same and
also the principles on running a

restaurant are the same.
So just starting with the

principle of running a
restaurant, it's all about

creating top line and then
obviously cost management and

the top line comes from traffic
and then average by using

formula, Everybody understands
that.

I think that what the best
suppliers do is they understand

this, so.
What the best suppliers like I

just mentioned probably best in
class is the RGO and they

understand the fact that it's
how you're able to either do to

create traffic or how you're
able to help with raising the

the average buy of the customer
or then obviously at the end of

the day what kind of?
Commercial terms you give and

such, but I think I'm a big
believer in the fact that people

come to events.
For example, together with

Peroni, when we launched Peroni,
we created Peroni of Peritivo.

I still have it for the second
year in my restaurant because I

copied paste what we did seven
years ago On product, again,

Peroni gets very good publicity
because it's obviously a main

sponsor or the only sponsor in
it is the signature event.

People come here because we
provide them programs together

with the Peroni and then we get
traffic and the restaurant

obviously gets sales.
And I think that's something

that a lot of suppliers don't
necessarily focus on.

They're more about the usual
ones that the brand manager and

the advertising agency have done
nice POS package together with

some nice print ads and posters
and pillows and whatever.

But at the end of the day, I
think that's for me a little bit

old school approach because
those pillows and table or

triangles, they're not going to
be helping you to bring people

into the restaurant, yeah.
But then the other thing is

obviously average buy.
So how you're able to then as

supplier create occasions or
actually sell more and that

becomes about staff training,
education of them so that

they're comfortable and
knowledgeable on selling the

product.
I think it's about creating this

incentive programs so that not
just that people switch from

another product to another
product and there's no

incremental sales, but actually
how do you upsell and so on.

And that's a big thing about
also about the suppliers versus

the restaurant owners and
managers is that at the end of

the day, restaurant owners are
not interested.

If this gin sells or this gin
sells seriously, then we don't

care.
We care.

Does it bring incremental sales,
Does it bring incremental profit

and that's it.
So if you're just saying that my

gin is better than this gin, but
it doesn't show.

Either one of those, not an
update, you don't care and then

we can talk about oh how what's
the brand fed to your concept

and all that.
But if you look at the

day-to-day work operations, you
need to bring something that

increases either one or in the
best case both.

And I think there's a big
learning for a lot of things and

I think for a lot of
entrepreneurs it will be very

beneficial if the suppliers who
have all this knowledge a lot

of.
The spirit industry seventy

8090% comes from big players who
have obviously a lot of power

behind them and a lot of
resources behind this education.

So educating the entrepreneurs
and if you sell this with this

price and if you sell a business
profit that you will make and

helping also understand the
business side of things and it's

that way.
I think it becomes a true

partnership, not just coming
through the door leaving the

case.
And here's a couple.

Pillow, unfortunately, you see
that a lot, but I think it's

also going through the right
direction.

Why do you think this is the
issue?

I've also built brands from the
bottom up when there were small

brands, but I also work with big
brands that have a big

footprint.
And I think the issue is that

when I discuss with top
management in a big brand, there

is a difference when launching a
small brand that can focus on an

outlet like you because it's one
of the influential outlets in

Prague or in Finland.
And it we get the, we get the

allowance and we get the chance
to actually do OK, let's go

create something together with
the top bars instead of doing,

yeah, like pillows and table
talkers.

But when you have a big brand
that is market leader, the

management is going to come to
me and tell me are you doing a

campaign with 1015 bars because
this is what the budget allows

you and how do we scale that.
And that's the old thing from

having an apparitivo like
activation.

To having table talkers because
at some point like you split,

the budget is the same and you
have to divide it either in 10

bars or in 1000.
Bars and I think you hit the

nail to the head.
I think it comes to the fact

that most of the industry is
dominated by the players that

are global giant and I think
that's all about what they need

to do is to drive scale.
So most of the companies, I'm

not saying none of them, but
most of the companies don't have

this slow burn approach.
Where you're actually able to

focus to 10 outlets, then 200
and then 2000.

And I think that comes all down
to execution and how you measure

the execution and what are the
incentives of the single PDS

salespeople and such.
The farther I go in my career,

the bigger I'm becoming a
believer on the actual execution

and implementation.
Early in my career I thought it

was fantastic to do this.
Nice strategies and PowerPoints

and with fancy pictures together
with the advertising agencies

and such.
The more I get older and the

wiser, I think it's it comes
down to execution.

And I think it's the fact that
how do you measure the PDS?

How do you measure the people
that are on the ground talking

to the restaurant owners,
talking to the GMs, the

managers, the bars?
Is it about piercing pillows or

is it about how you're able to
create occasion with this brand?

How we're going to be able to
bring traffic to your bar

because of this is the support
you're going to receive.

I'm going to come back here in,
not in.

Three months or half a year, but
I'm actually going to come back

here in the next couple weeks
and then help you and see how

you're doing and then we adapt
what we've learned so far.

But I think it's something that
is a luxury to have when you're

a small brand because at the end
of the day you don't have the

resources to do that do the
otherwise.

So you have to choose ten
outlets rather than 100 and 1000

outlets.
But when it comes to these

global giants, it's very hard
to.

First of all to get it done in
one country level, then in a

regional level or then on a
global level.

So it's very rare approach, but
I still know that there's

obviously there's a various
stereotypes, they're still in

this global big companies that
are doing the launches.

There's a lot of credit sales
people who are actually taking

care of the outlets even if it's
taking a little bit extra time

and such.
But I think that's a, it's a big

issue and I think this is
crusade that I'm doing with,

with my company and with the
podcast.

It's about also creating,
educating the top management in

thinking this way.
Because in my experience, I've

been working for big and small
brands, big companies, small

companies.
And it all comes back to the

same thing as consumers at the
bar ordering a drink.

There's an owner that wants to
make money that doesn't want you

just to switch Gene A from Gene
B.

They want to have an incremental
revenue, They want to have new

footfall and basket spend as you
said.

But there is a tendency to say
this only works with small

brands or this is only work with
big brands, that the small

brands are complaining they
don't have the money.

The big brands complain they
need to drive scale.

But I I bring the example of the
gym now you either do sport as a

child and you grow up fit or you
have a fat adult and you need to

go back to the gym to lose
weight.

It doesn't matter.
You still need to be fit.

That's the overall objective.
Either you started fit and you

you grew bottom up organically
or you are a big fat brand that

needs to get a little bit leaner
and agile.

You still need to do that.
And there is a lot of

discussions that I'm having with
top management teams that they

lose track of that because they
ultimately just want to look at

the numbers in Excel sheets
rather than actually building

proper relationships.
And going back to the roots of

the issue, which is let's focus
on a target occasion.

Let's focus on something that
makes sense for all the links in

the value chain because it's
about money.

It's about fitting the portfolio
of the distributor and fitting

the portfolio and the range of
the back bar of a bar because

otherwise it doesn't make sense.
This is an Italian influenced

restaurant.
It wouldn't make sense to have

like products that are not
fitting that occasion.

But then if you have a, you
know, Spritz like all the

Italian Amaros, those are the
ones that are going to work.

Then there is an element of the
foot in the door that you can

play with because I used to do
it with with some clients in New

York.
When if you've got a like an

Escal or or a whiskey, I would
come here to you and I would say

you're selling Negronis because
of an Italian restaurant.

Why don't we switch it to
Boulevardier with my whiskey

brand or why don't we switch it
with a Negroni mescal with my

mescal brand.
And then I give you an

information, I say actually with
this you can up charge them.

You gave good margins on these
versus these other products or

even if it's not, I remember
like sometimes we were having

this conversation when the
margin didn't actually make

sense, but then it was becoming
an image thing and then it's OK.

I remember, like we had in this
conversation, like, I'm willing

to lose a little bit of margins
on this, but you bring me

something else.
You bring me the prestige of the

brand, you bring me some
activation, you bring me the top

management here and I can
showcase the venue to them.

Ultimately, it's about building
the system because there's no

one thing that makes a brand
win, but know what you're doing

and what you shouldn't do.
I remember the example that we

had in 2015, sixteen when we
launched pepperoni.

And obviously Peroni as buying
in in Finland was much more

expensive than buying the local
breweries.

And and I there was a
substantial difference in the

margin.
But then you made a claim that

because we sell Peroni in a
smaller trap size than than the

normal finished finished beer
that the people will buy more.

And obviously I think I I took
it as a challenge and and it was

true probably the absolute
margin was still a little bit

lower given the fact that we
were able to.

Have these events we will have
having these prestige elements

around it.
And I think your investments

compared to our sales didn't
make any sense in the beginning,

but now it's all refundable
because we did that and we chose

those outlets then that's how we
started.

But I think it's exactly, it's
not just one thing.

So it's not just looking at the
product margin or it's not just

looking at what price you buy it
in, it's all about what the

partner can bring in the table
and I think.

Also, especially talking about
SO entrepreneurs who have won

restaurants, a few restaurants,
they're very busy people, so

very busy entrepreneurs and they
also want support.

So it's not just here's the
pillows at the door, but it's

actually, hey, I'm going to help
you do this.

When I was working for Coca-Cola
was here's even social media

assets that you can put directly
to your Instagram or Facebook.

Here's a social media toolkit to
promote this.

And here's the things that you
can do and making.

It's very easy for the
entrepreneur to make the launch

or make a promotion or such.
And it's actually something that

I think is you can't measure
with money, but a lot of

business people and the
restaurant owners will

appreciate.
And actually, I know that you

mentioned, I remember this
conversation, this conversation

with back back in back in
Helsinki because I back then I

was a little bit afraid of like,
OK, you have a very strong

visual identity and so on.
So you want to create the assets

yourself.
No.

And then you said, guys, we
don't have time.

We run restaurants, we don't run
ad agencies.

So you bring us all the things
you do, the invitation, we're

doing this VIP invitation, we
were doing all the assets and

everything.
And you asked me to do that.

And I was surprised back then,
like 10 years ago when I said,

OK, oh, actually even a top
place like this is asking for

help on creating the assets
because they don't want to do

the creation.
No, because sometimes it's just

like, OK, let's ask the
restaurant.

And they are busy and they have
the cool design, so they would

want to do it themselves.
But in the end, it's just about,

OK, let's do it together.
But you actually do it because

then I will run the night.
So you will not bring beers to

the table in the evening.
I'll do that.

But then you bring me the people
to do that.

Obviously there's an approval
process and then there's a bit

of control.
Everybody you know, knows that.

But I expect that's the
approach.

I many times tell the suppliers
that we're not event agencies.

We don't, you know, obviously we
create our events, but that's

not our day-to-day job.
Our day-to-day job is to run the

restaurants, take care of the
staff and take care of the

customers and take care of the
business.

But we're not making a Peroni or
you know apparel or whatever the

event is you guys.
That's your product and you take

care of it obviously as a.
In collaboration with us.

But you know where the easier
you make it, the better it will

be and that's obvious some value
that you're able to bring to the

table even if you're a smaller
brand and a challenger brand.

And I I'm a big believer in that
because that taps into the fact

that you're bringing football
traffic to the restaurant.

So I think my advice for the for
a lot of the suppliers and the

distributors would be to focus
on that.

I Co ride with sales teams and
like I've done it myself in the

past like first hand and there
is always like a a lot of focus

like going back to the
storytelling where we started

with.
There is I feel very often there

is too much focus on the story
of the brand.

I've done brand trainings and
it's always like this is the

story of the brand.
It starts in 1840, whatever,

it's 18601871, whatever.
Let's do an event at that time,

1816 whatever.
There is a lot of talking about

the brand, the founder, the
location and everything where it

comes from.
But then there's not enough

talking about when you should
drink this.

Now.
Yeah.

What is the occasion?
Why am I supposed to drink this?

And I love all the botanical
things, but then what am I

supposed to taste?
And you said in the beginning,

when you talk about your
lingoncello, you said

lingoncello, limoncello actually
had is not like a game with

words.
It's more like it actually.

There is the acidity or the
yeah, like of the lemon in it's

basically the vitamin C of the
Arctic, yeah.

No, you never had lemons until I
like that vitamin C of Yeah no

actually lingamberry is a super
Berry.

So it's a very high in terms of
vitamin and antioxidants and

such.
So it has based, but you need to

explain that into the drinking
experience.

Because if I'm for example, I
make it up.

Now if you tell me instead of
having a spritz have a

linguancello spritz, I'm going
to go there with my sweet tooth.

So I'm going to sip it and I'm
going to say, wow, what is this?

But if you explain it to me as a
super Berry rich in antioxidant

with a slight acid taste and
it's like sour and then now I'm

making this up, but I don't
know.

But then I go there and I taste
it with that mindset and then I

say, wow, I love this, you know?
There's a couple of things to

it.
So first of all, from the big

picture when it comes to new
products and innovation, I

worked a bit up with innovation
in my career.

And I'm a big believer that the
best innovations are not big

revolutions or something that is
totally new, their renovations

or making enhancing something or
developing a bit better.

Because people in their
psychology, their cognitive

misers, they actually like to
miss things.

They don't tap into looking at
what's new.

They're looking for something
that is familiar, that's how

people shop and whether it's
grocery stores or whether it's

in a bar or whether it's they're
looking at the menu, they're

looking things they're familiar
with and they can associate with

with their past choices.
And I think that's the whole

thing of Lingongello as well.
So we obviously tap into

something that most of the
people know or who are in the in

the category and then the same
thing is about creating the the

target occasion.
So our signature drink is

Lingongello Spread.
And again, I'm a big fan of

opera.
I think it's probably the

biggest innovation or biggest
revolution to the market that

has happened creating not just
Opera Spritz, but the total

category.
Personally, I founded in 2009

and been drinking many since.
However, now that in my palate

has aged a little bit, it's a
little bit too sweet.

So my whole pitch to my friends,
not just to customers, is that

Linguigne jello spreads is still
a spread, but it's a little bit

not as sweet, so it has this
tartness.

So it's.
A little bit like a Necroni in

terms of the split.
So it has a little bit more

mature taste.
The other drink that we

obviously have is Lingeroni, so
we replace Campari with with

Lingongello.
And again, we're tapping into

something that people already
know.

So we're not coming with
something Lingongello with

smokiness and forest flavors
from the Arctic than ice and

such, because again that would
be very much on the concept, but

it would be very much something
to add agency did on a

PowerPoint presentation.
It looks nice.

But most of the customers when
ordering from the bar and they

cop them in, it will go like,
what the fuck is that?

So again, I think it's tapping
into this.

Again, a good example that we
didn't know really we didn't

know, but we basically in
Finland and I think across

Europe there was a retro train
where you have custis and

sparkling wine or champagne.
And we already thought about

that because it's a big occasion
in in terms of for example for

Christmas or for example in
terms of the graduation timing

or such as was to have Que
Royale.

Remember that from my childhood
and teenage years that in in the

family parties it was all with
Que Royale.

Then it disappeared.
But we thought to bring it back

as Ling Royale.
So a sip of lingogello and

sparkling wine, it brings this
beautiful red color.

To my knowledge I haven't
watched it myself, but now Emily

in Paris.
But.

Royal back, so we got lucky on
that one.

But again, we're tapping into
something that people already

know.
And actually in most of the

promotion and advertising, we're
not even talking about

Linguanella being indigested
because that's given.

So that's already given.
So people already know that.

But again, we try to avoid the
trap that Limoncello was for 100

and 200 years until they now
obviously were able to break out

by bringing Limoncello's.
Which is the second more so

spreads in in Ragazzi for
example, this somehow this this

is a great point because you're
giving some examples of stuff

that was like exhaustion to your
brand building process not

because you didn't know that
Lemon Chandler would be

trending.
No you didn't know about the Key

Royale and so on.
But the The thing is about

making all the steps in the
right place anyway.

Yeah, regardless, it's like I
write on LinkedIn every day and

Instagram and so on.
And what a lot of the people

that I I follow say, they say
don't worry about the algorithm

because you never find out.
You can get an insight about

what the algorithm wants and so
on.

Think about human psychology,
learn to to understand how human

thing.
And then the algorithm will come

with it and it's a little bit
the same.

There's a too much effort about
spotting trends or RAM is going

to be next.
Let's launch a RAM brand and

then when you realize that RAM
is going to be next, you're

already late to the RAM journey.
So then you need to wait another

8 to 10 years for it.
So it's about like really being

focused on the steps that you
have to make.

And then obviously you need to
be agile and tap into the

opportunities of the Lehman
Chamber is trending, let's push

it even harder than the thing.
But it's not that if Limonchelle

is trendy, and then with my
random brand that has nothing to

do with Limoncello.
I'm going to make something

similar to Limoncello to make it
trendy.

Exactly.
So we on those two things, we

got lucky when it comes to
marketing and branding.

At my university was Mars
Incorporated and a lot of these

things that I'm talking about
today, I'm thankful for the

career in Mars.
And I think it's about making

brands and making concepts that
obviously are aspirational in

some sense inspiring.
I don't personally think that

people love brands.
People love their family and

friends and close ones and their
pets and maybe their home and

summer house, but they don't
love brands.

But still brands can be
aspiring, inspiring, fun, have a

lot of joy on on being around
those brands.

But I think though, at the end
of the day, they can be too

exclusive.
They need to be inclusive.

Yeah.
And if you're doing a niche

brand and you're trying to make
it very, you know, kind of like,

so either you get it or you
don't.

That's fine as well, but in most
cases it will stay neat.

So you try to make a brand that
people are there might be this

like So what is it?
But then you get it.

So there's this Co creation or
Lingongello or Lingon berries

and Limongello got it and they
remember.

Then you don't go and introduce
perch, smoky ice, lingongello,

whatever, but you tap it again
into something that.

Oh, next time I'm going to have
a family event, a nice event,

I'm going to instead of your
royal, I'm going to do a Ling

Royal.
And that's why I buy the bottom.

Oh, actually these guys have AQR
code behind the label that gives

you more ideas how to use it.
But again, you don't make it

difficult to, first of all to
remember the brand and

especially don't make it
difficult on how to use the

brand.
You're trying to give these

ideas and build occasions.
I know you talk about a lot

about occasions, and I'm a big
believer in that.

Because at the end of the day,
the consumer is the same.

He can have many.
You talk about restaurants.

I have little beautiful young
kids and I go to a restaurant

with them.
Let's say I go on a Saturday

morning for a brunch.
That's a totally different

occasion if I go then with my
mates, you know, on Saturday

nights to another restaurant or
if I go to a business dinner

that same night or if I take my
wife for a nice dinner.

Those are all different kind of
brands and concept and

restaurants.
But the consumer remains the

same, but the occasion defines
on what the choice will be and I

think that travels across
brands.

So I'm not a believer on this is
our target group.

As you said in one of the
podcast demographic, 18 to 23.5

lives in an urban area, has one
pet and likes to do yoga.

Don't believe in that at all.
Absolutely.

And I've actually got evidence
of this.

Like yesterday I was having a
talk with a friend of mine that

has a brand and he's also
selling directly on the website

and he said he told me like the
crazy thing is that I've got my

top two buyers of my product are
one is an old man, 78 years old,

living in salary single and the
other one is a young girl from

East London living in short
ditch 23 years old like students

next Saturday.
So who am I going to target?

If I need to rely on the target
persona, who am I going to

target?
What brings them in common is

the values of the brand, is the
taste experience of the brand,

is the fact that it's using
certain botanical from a certain

region.
That is what matters to them.

And I always play with some
LinkedIn posts and I say don't

talk to me up 15 minutes about
the Botanic goes to your point

is, tell me what am I supposed
to taste?

Am I supposed to taste
bitterness, sweetness.

Is this sweeter than Is it
smokier than?

Is it less smoky?
How am I supposed to drink this?

And then it goes back to the
fact that for all brands, and

I've been thinking about these a
lot, there's always a

traditional occasion.
And then modern occasion, yeah.

So if you, you mentioned it
before, now you said, I'm not

talking about the digestive
because that's a traditional

occasion and everybody knows
that.

So if somebody picks it up from
the shelf in Alcoa, they're

going to drink it as a
digestive.

If you don't say anything, then
they don't know the brand, they

just picked it up from randomly
from the shelf.

Yeah.
Then if they've seen it in Lulu

or in the OR in Ragazzi, then
they know how to drink the brand

because the people behind the
bar are explaining them and that

the menu is explaining to them
how to drink it.

And that's the modern take.
So very often there is this

misinterpretation about where
you want to bring the brand and

what pool.
The volume pool may be with

digestives, yeah, but the brand
building long term pool will be

with appetitives.
Exactly.

That's absolutely right.
And what is your take about?

Like the I was discussing in
another episode that you will,

you will see like the the whole
thing about Byron Sharp.

And I know you learn about a lot
about every of you with your

times in marks about this, like
building distribution.

Should you expand your occasion
or should you focus on the on

one single occasion?
I think first of all, I think I

took a Byron's course at that.
I think at that point it was

called creating strategies of
desire.

I took my first course in March,
I think it was 2008 and a big

fan of Byron and his work and
and back as the Institute works.

And a lot of the things that I
believe in marketing are based

on the learnings and the
findings of that team.

So according to them, I don't
think it's about taking one

target occasion.
I think it's about, again, being

wide enough.
Being inclusive enough.

So again, if you take, I was
listening to the Aqua Beat

podcast that you have, if you
just have Aqua Beat as a Snaps,

and it's only to that occasion
when you're having the toast or

you're having that song or
you're having your university

party or whatever, and that's
the only time you take Aqua

Beat, it's fine if the occasion
is big enough, but if you want

to expand the brand.
You have to create new

occasions.
You have to give the people new

ideas on how to use the brand
and expand away from that

basically core occasion.
And I think the story with

Limoncello that just happened
with a few years past few years,

I think it's a great one.
It has been able to build

another occasion that is
obviously can be very big or

it's already quite big.
I think there's a danger also if

you tap into just one target
core occasion that you keep on

pounding them.
Because then you might be able

to establish it, but you then
you establish it almost too

strongly and then you're stuck
with it.

However, if that occasion is big
enough, so you know you have it

after having a meal, every time
you have it after the meal.

And then we have three meals a
day and then every time they're.

So if that occasion is big
enough, obviously that's OK,

Yeah.
But if we're talking about

challenger brands or brands that
are just launching and just

going to one target occasion, I
think there's a risk risk as

well.
I think it's about putting the

foot in the door on trying
something else.

So I always take the example, I
go start with something, start

with the Spritz or start with
there and then see what works

and what resonates.
And then some bartenders may

actually tell you, I don't think
it works really well with Spritz

because people try but don't
like it.

But let's do it in a Negroni or
in an Americano.

And I think it would work much
better.

And then and then always use
the, let's say, the classic

cocktails, because signature
cocktails are coming and going

like that.
There is a lot of creativity

there.
But then the classics are

classics and most of the people
will always rely on the classic,

whether they are old classics
like the old fashion or new

classics like the penicillin.
When they are classic, everybody

knows what to expect from it.
And then you can try and see

different things.
And I would say if you

communicate one occasion, it
doesn't mean that you're stuck

to it, but this needs to be
clarified.

For sure and absolutely.
And I just to give one more

example on the risk of just
going for A1 core occasion, if

you go with Lingongello Spritz
in Finland, you know that

occasion lasts for if we're
lucky, less than two months, but

there's a risk to it.
So thus you need to have the

Ling Royale or the Lingon
gelatonic or Lingeroni or

obviously digestive as well.
But if you just we were stuck on

the Lingonzo Spritz. 1010 months
out of the year we wouldn't have

an occasion.
So again, that's you need to be

aware of the market and not be
aware of the risk on building on

occasion or just one occasion.
The occasion often gets

misinterpreted that it can be
wider or smaller.

Like depending how you look at
it now, you can be a cocktail or

one occasion can be an Aguni.
Yeah, or an occasion can be an

apparative or it can be a
branch, or it can be during

dinner and after dinner, like,
you can be flexible with it as

long as it serves your
narrative.

You know, I was discussing with
Stephen Grass on the podcast,

the creator of Hendrix Jane,
among other brands.

And and what he was saying is
that when Hendrix started with

the the cabinet of Curiosity, so
the line extensions and they are

limited editions every year, the
occasions are like crazy

occasions because that's the
crazy brand.

So Lunar has got like moon
bathing as an occasion.

There was another one that had,
I can't remember the name now,

but it had a flowery summer
evening party.

You can play with certain things
as long as you use that to

communicate something and to put
the foot in the door into that.

Kind of like that one would be
perfect to use in weddings,

barbecues, like stuff that you
do in a garden during summer.

But then the core brand would
carry on throughout the year,

and there must be flexibility on
that without becoming too much

of an echo chamber kind of
thing.

Especially in the whiskey world,
this happens a lot now.

It becomes so niche and your
community and your network is so

much into the same things that
you like that it becomes an

isolation now.
And then it becomes, oh, this is

the stuff for 10 people that
really, I don't know, super

pitted whiskey.
Yeah, but then nobody's going to

drink it.
It will be the craziest thing

that you give me as a finish
after a dinner at your place.

But but you will have that
bottle for 15 years because it

would just be those two.
Centiliters that you give

because this is really strong.
I think at the end of the day

the the people and the customers
will create their own occasions.

The main thing is that you're
able to get them to buy that

bottle to their home.
That is not one of those bottles

that are back at your bar
cabinet and then you move houses

and it comes with you and then
eventually you throw it away

because you never use it.
Both of us probably have those

bottles, but I saw a great kind
of idea on one of these LinkedIn

spirits groups is that create
also recipes that your alcohol

can be part of.
For example, in Tiramisu's

playing a role in there Can it
be Lingon Jalat Tiramisu?

Can it be Lingon Jalat
Cheesecake?

Again, a little bit different
target audience, a little bit

different media that you're able
to get penetration through, get

a better reach.
But then if the person who's

cooking at home or baking at
home makes cheesecake, they're

gonna buy that Lingongello and
then say that's the reason that

they first buy the bottle, But
then say, hey, you can use this

rather than baking as well.
At the end of the day, the main

thing is the bottle gets out the
shelf, gets into the bar cabin,

and then it's being used for
whatever the occasion, whether

it's baking or having a.
Digestive at the end of the meal

or whether it's making spreads
in the garden, who cares?

Yes, as long as a bottle is
there when it's being used.

The same in bars obviously it
comes to the fact that you need

to build what they call social
carriers thing to talk about to

your friends.
The brands that I consume the

most where brands that I got
them instantly and the story and

the liquid together were so cool
that I could show off.

And tell the story yourself and
tell the story in an easy way

without having to remember the
year it was born or anything

like that.
So we were discussing it with

Stephen Grass again.
Like, he has a great thing in

his book Brand Mysticism about.
He brings examples like the

brand world of Tolkien or the
brand world of the Simpson.

Yeah.
And he said, like, Brand needs

to be like The Simpsons.
So The Simpsons, if you watch it

for the first time, it's funny.
You get it is not to your point

exclusive because you understand
who's the father, who's the

mother, who's the child, who's
the teacher and so on.

But then the more you watch it,
the more you understand nuances.

And then you may watch back an
episode and then it's like, I

didn't get that the first time I
watched it, but it builds up

like he calls the Stephen calls
it like the Onion.

But you don't talk about the
overall family tree of the

Simpson in the first episode
because like, people need to

fully understand it, otherwise
they will not understand

anything.
Anymore there needs to be a lot

of simplicity.
So where we're aiming for

example with Lincoln Cello.
Lot is on the international

markets, not just obviously
different markets but also in

terms of duty free.
So we believe that for example,

now it's in the OR in the
Helsinki airport, it's already

in the Baltic Cruise Liners
where whereas again people have

time to spend a little bit with
the product they see limoncello

or Arctic limoncello, OK, this
is perfect thing to take home to

whether it's Asia or to another
European country or whenever and

then tell that short story that
is easy to understand.

To your friends and people love
to do that.

I work a bit fitted with wines
as well and in the wine industry

it's most of the products and
the concepts are exactly about.

So this was coming from this
hillside and this was the soil

and this year and all that and a
lot of times the wines that

people are talking about are.
I visited this vineyard and

actually the owner is this and
he has a funny dog and that's

it.
They want to tell us simplistic

stories rather than telling very
detailed product information or.

How?
When the harvest was or or such.

But I think it's about that
people are able to repeat that

story very easily.
Yeah.

And also one of the points and
maybe we can also talk about

this is the fact that for me,
like I talk a lot about the fact

that you have to win.
So for example to your Lingo

Chandler, you need to win in
Finland.

Yes, to be great people, Yes.
Let you go to Germany and then

nobody know.
Nobody sees it in Finland.

Nobody knows it in Finland and
so on.

And it's connected to the thing
that it's useless to expand to

100 bars.
Yeah.

If you haven't cracked those 10
bars, I agree.

So it's useless to do a
distribution deal in 20 markets

if you cannot follow up.
Yeah, In those markets, yeah.

And Jonas, so let's talk about
the Lingon shell, how it's taken

footprint in Finland building
into the consumer mice, a very

nice distribution.
You are distributed also in

ALCO, if I understood correctly
in the finished monopoly.

What's next for the brand?
How do you bring that brand to

the next level?
You probably started in

Helsinki.
Are you already distributing the

rest of Finland?
Are you expanding to different

markets like this is something
that our listeners are always

interested in and struggling
with in how to manage the one

pilot type of the conversation?
So I think in terms of one of

the things that I learned from
the big corporations already

talk about the scale is that you
have a lot have to have a lot of

patience in the launch.
Many times the big corporation

launches, which I also have done
there about what are the results

in 12 months, whereas for me the
launch should be at least 36

months.
So we started six months ago

officially.
We already had established at

the end of last year we
established a good distribution

in the monopoly in Finland and
then we launched in March.

And after that we've been
obviously building both

distribution and trying to also
build awareness through some

limited PR and such, which
obviously in the dark market is

quite important.
I personally think what I think

you also say in your podcast
that you have to be credible and

in your own base market first
before.

And expanding to other markets
and that's obviously the base

that we want to build as well.
So now we have a pretty good

summer behind us and now we're
focusing on the festive season

at the end of the year.
Talking to outlets, talking to

obviously to distributors.
We are, as I mentioned already

before, we're also focusing on
the duty free, both the airport

as well as the cruise lines
which are quite big sales points

in Finland and in the Baltic
area.

That's also the duty free is
very important for us in terms

of building awareness because.
Already learned in my March days

and Chocolate Tax Free is a
great place to introduce new

products because people have
more time and they also are more

in a buying mode.
They're willing to test new

products and such and that
obviously again they're built

bringing that bottle back home
and showing it to their friends

and saying telling that story
that they hopefully learn.

So we're building still that now
we're focusing in Finland to

build the distribution in
monopoly further.

We're focusing on getting new
outlets, but again not with the

huge.
Big ban approach outlet by

outlet and making partnerships
with them and then eventually

which we already naturally
started.

Simultaneously we're going into
the international markets.

We have some sales already
abroad and now we're in

negotiations mainly to Asia and
then a couple major European

markets where we want to
explore.

But again, I think we need to be
first credible, authentic on

building our home market and
then expanding more further.

It wouldn't make sense if I came
to Finland then I didn't see

Lingocello anywhere.
Yeah, then it will become a

gimmick.
So it is this kind of thing like

a how do you work with
expansion.

So when because we discussed
this before on on the bars

example whether at each stage of
the, whether you're selling one

box or one case or one pallet,
the mechanics are the same now.

So instead of focusing on 100
bars, focus on 5 bars, then 10

bars and 20 bars.
Because if you cannot cover

them, it's useless.
Now if I sell my brand in random

city in Czech Republic and I
don't want to drive there to

visit, the owner is going to
forget about me.

So how do you do that in the
launches?

So when you do international,
you need to look for a

distributor or you need to look
for someone despite not having

the consistent presence there.
How?

How do you do that?
And how many countries, how many

markets are you planning to to
start at the same time?

Because all these deals take
time and maybe sometimes they

all line up at the same time and
you're basically launching in

five countries at the same time.
But you just started the

negotiation like two years ago,
three years ago, and then all of

a sudden it's shit now it
depends on the same time.

Fortunately we have great
partners, so Lynn at this point

and so the oldest alcohol
company in in Finland.

Taken notice, family company in
Finland since 18 weeks, 2, if I

remember correct, they're
working as our sales and

marketing and distribution and
manufacturing.

Obviously as brand owners and
also because of my background,

we talk a lot about the
strategies together, our monthly

meetings and such.
But they have more of the

experience because they've been
doing this for ages, especially

in Asia with the Berry liquor.
So they have a good knowledge

and experience on this.
However, I think it's all about

distribution game.
And it's all about choosing the

right distribution partner.
And I call it a little bit of

paradox when choosing the
distributor because at the end

of the day, you want your brand
to be their top of mind and

their priority and their focus
point.

But it's not true.
If you're not able to give them

massive resources, you're going
to be a challenger brand, not

just against the competition,
but also in the distribution

portfolio.
It's a little bit of, like I

said, a challenge because you
want to.

Big enough distributor that has
enough market power and network

and distribution points and a
good team, but however you don't

want it too bit too big so that
you're not straight away at the

bottom of the portfolio.
So it's a very fine art on

choosing that distribution
partner that both has good

presence in the market, can do
things for you and your brand

but then at the same time is not
considering.

You to be the defocused product
in the portfolio and if you have

to choose one now, making it
extreme like which one would you

go for?
I would definitely go for the

focus, that you get the focus
from the distributor, it's a

smaller one, and give them a
chance and start doing a brand

bar by bar.
Because no matter whether the

market power is, if you're not
the one that their salespeople

are talking about and they
forgot to even mention you or

the typical.
Slides in the deck and then

you're the last slide in the
deck.

We have this thing as well, but
it's also it's probably not for

you.
I know how it works.

And even in big corporations,
when you have your own brands,

absolutely.
If you have a smaller brand,

it's very hard to get the focus,
and this is a great example

actually what you bring in,
because there's two points like

the first one is about the
internal competition.

We're discussing that no matter
what happens outside of you,

focus is the first thing.
So I remember that back in the

days when I started working with
Petoni as a marketing manager,

nobody cared about Petoni inside
the organization, not even

outside, inside the
organization.

I was sitting in Pilsen in the
Pilsen Ruqua Brewery and I was a

bit of a joke because I'm like
the Italian guy in check in the

check lands, the land of beer,
Trying to sell an Italian beer

and trying to get the share of
my you were an alien.

But then all of a sudden, like
then, for many reasons, the

managing director was Italian.
They only was becoming a

success.
It was good margins.

It was starting to build up bit
by bit, slowly.

But I was never losing the focus
on, like, I don't care.

Like if these people don't care
about me, I carry on and I do my

stuff all the time because at
some point the luck like they

say, you know, luck is when
opportunity meets, meets

preparation and hard work.
So at some point they will

notice me and then they notice
me.

So this is the same thing that
happens in big companies, no

matter if you are the brand
manager on the smallest brand

with €25,000 budget for the all
year, do the old things that you

have to do and then do the
internal PR.

And then at some point your
brand will become like, oh,

actually, but we all declining
on this brand, but what's the

brand that is growing 200%?
Oh, let's talk to this guy or

girl.
When I was in the working for

the big corporations and having
a team of my own, I always put

the toughest guys and girls on
working the challenger brands.

Yeah, not just because I knew
that they were good at it, but

also help to them to double on
because at the end of the day

it's easiest to manage those big
brands that are on the market

established, have big budgets.
The trick is, how do you make

those challenger brands?
First of all, your internal

organization to fall in love and
then to be engaged when the

results don't come straight
away.

And that's the key.
And if you're able to do that,

you obviously become a star.
That's.

And I think it is a journey that
most of the people in their

career should take if they're
working in marketing.

Because that's when you become
have to have resilience, you

have to have creativity.
And I think it starts with

making the troops hype, making
the troops believe in the

product, make the troops go for
their extra mile for the little

guy.
Whether it's your, whether it's

your own brand or whether you're
in a distributor and you're the

challenger brand in the
portfolio, that's something that

you have to do day-to-day.
But obviously I'm not on that

working on data, but I think our
partner will will work on that

together with the distributors.
And the key is again like

whether it's in a bar as we
discussed, there needs to be

something that is interesting
for the distributor as well.

Does it complement My Portfolio?
Does it bring something that I

don't already have?
I have a gin in My Portfolio

now.
I have Ling on Jello.

We can sell lingerie together.
We can package and bundle them

together.
I don't have occasion for

spirits.
I don't have occasion for

digest.
OK, now I can serve the bar, the

full package on every occasion.
Again, this brings.

I sell 1 bottle of this.
This brings me 15% better margin

than I sell for this.
I can incentivize the sales PDS

to push my product.
It's the same kind of approach

again as you have when you're
talking to the on trade.

Again, you need to find those
angles and and that's the key,

so that you stay relevant, so
that you are interesting from

the very beginning and you can
trust on the fact that they will

sustainably support you.
Yeah.

Also like building on
opportunities that you may spot

like never stop observing and
analyzing things because

sometimes it could be imagine
like could be like oh we are out

of stock of apparel in this.
Market oh, I've got a solution

for you.
Like you can use my product

instead and and then you get an
easy way in just because of you

observes that there was
something or or maybe like the

owner doesn't like to do opera
spritz in that bar because

everybody has it.
I don't want to have it in my

bar.
I remember back in the days in

the Monopoly and System blog it
with that there was one

particular summer that we sold
hell of a lot of Miller.

Because Corona was out of stock,
they had some challenges with

Corona and then we had an extra,
I don't know like double, triple

digit that summer just because
everybody were looking for a

similar brand like transparent
glass beer, light beer and so

on.
And we sold that way or you can

look at it in the trend.
So if you look at Opera,

obviously huge success globally,
but then you look at it as some

of the more mature markets where
Opera has been launched years

ago.
It starts to obviously still

might be growth, but it start
plateauing and then the whole

splits category has starts to
grow.

OK.
What do I have in My Portfolio

that I can offer splits to my
clients even when we're looking

into different markets now we
look at players that have

limoncello in their portfolio
because then we can say OK, you

have a limoncello now you can
tap into, you can also then

offer limoncello so they
understand the game already.

So I think it's or you go to
houses that distributors that

have good Prosecco that is a
value Prosecco for the entree

and you say now you can bundle
all these two or you do it with

Jen as I mentioned.
So again, what are those angles

that distributors it makes it
easy for for them to sell more?

And also like to your previous
point like the the second point

that I didn't mention before
like on on going with the two

big distributor is that the
people often forget is that you

need a lot of cash.
You need to be really well

funded because I always say be
careful what you wish for

because if you grow.
Too fast.

You need to subsidize that
growth and it's like who's going

to produce?
You need to order bottles, you

need to order the brand.
You need to consider the payment

terms that are going to come
slowly and slowly because

they're going to be in three
months.

These other guys are going to be
in another three months.

So you are paying in advance of
six months or nine months kind

of thing.
So do you have the muscle or is

it better to grow more slowly at
the beginning and take care of

that?
No, that's absolutely right.

And I think it's it's also where
you are in your launch, where

are you in your brand journey.
So obviously in the beginning

when you're establishing new
distribution collaborations, you

don't have the negotiation as
you will have when the brand is

established.
There's a big pull from the

market.
So in the beginning obviously

with the distributors, you might
have to do a deal that the

percentage is higher by covers
marketing and sales.

Then you when you become more
established, even with the same

distributor, you can change
those terms and say that now we

can take this marketing and
sales part and cover the

investments, your margins will
be lower.

But in the very early stages of
the launch when you're not

having massive resources as a
challenger brand, you don't have

that negotiation power in the
beginning.

So absolutely true.
Sometimes it's it can be

misleading because you may have.
Some power because you may have

relationship with a distributor,
you may have contacts.

And so it could be, let's say,
easier than with another brand

that doesn't have any contacts.
But then you're in trouble

because all of a sudden, like I
discussed with some brands and

then they said, OK, actually a
supermarket chain wanted our

product, yeah, what do we do?
And we had to say no because we

couldn't just afford it.
Yeah, we couldn't afford.

Those shipments, that production
and those kind of things, right?

Yeah, obviously, yeah, no.
And I know also brands have been

in that situation.
And Jonas, let's wrap it up here

and I give you some space to
tell our audience where to find

you as a person and then as an
entrepreneur and your brands and

where do people find you.
So obviously easiest way to find

is from Ragazzi, which is a
restaurant family restaurant in

Prague in beautiful Binarari.
Then obviously you can find me

in LinkedIn, Jonas Makila, If
you're interested on any

collaboration opportunities, you
can contact me or Lingnet Beast

Planet in Finland.
We also have a website for

lingoncellolingoncello.com.
So there you can learn more

about Lingoncello and that's
about it.

And obviously you can go to
Chris with his massive network

and I'm sure he can connect us.
So it's been a pleasure to talk

with you next time.
I think this is the first time

in our 17 years of friendship
that we're just drinking water.

So next time we I need to have
some drinks because this is very

odd and I guess it's the
morning.

So thanks.
Thanks for having me, Chris.

And absolutely that's the
challenge really, the morning

exactly that we stick to water
and coffee.

Exactly.
So we'll have the chance.

We'll next.
Next.

Recording.
We'll do it in the evening.

Fantastic.
I'm looking forward to it.

Thanks, Janet.
Thank you.

That's all for today.
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