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Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.
Jessica Pierce 0:00
You know, if you've lived with your dog for 10 years, you might say, "Well, I know them. I don't need to be curious. But say, if you were curious for a week, you'd be surprised at how much more you know them at the end of that time. And I think it just what I like about curiosity too is that it creates this kind of breadth between an event happening and our response to it. Hello
PJ Wehry 0:26
and welcome to Chasing Leviathan. I'm your host PJ Wery, and I'm here today with Dr. Jessica Pierce, who is a bioethicist and writer who focuses on human-animal relationships and interconnections between ecosystems and health. And we're here today to talk about her book, "Who's a Good Human: Practical Exercises for Living Mindfully with Dogs. Dr. Pierce, wonderful to have you on today.
Jessica Pierce 0:50
Thank you for having me. It's nice to be here.
PJ Wehry 0:54
So, Dr. Pierce, oh, you've also written. I mean, you've written quite a few books. There's "Who's a Good Dog? "Run, Spot, Run. I have that down here among many others. Why this book?
Jessica Pierce 1:09
So this this book is a follow up to my previous book, Who's a Good Dog. It's also in some ways, an extension of my philosophical project more broadly, but in terms of a follow-up to "Who's a Good Dog, "Who's a Good Dog" was about inviting people to enter into a different kind of relationship with their dog that was based not on the kind of standard model of dogs are are pets. They their job is to be obedient and kind of do what we say, follow our lead, you know, fit into our lives, and shaking that up a bit to suggest that you know we're we're partners in this collaborative project of living together in often really messy and conflict ridden ways, and that being in an in an ethically responsive relationship to our dog requires the skills of curiosity, collaboration, and care. And a friend of mine, a colleague who's a dog trainer, over lunch one day said, "You know, who's a good dog would really make it make a really great like book of practical exercises. Like you talk about reframing barking in your mind as communication rather than annoyance. So how do you actually do that? So like that was a great idea, and it just is like yeah, that's that's exactly right. So who's a good human is a training manual for humans how to be a better human in relationship with your dog through building the skills of attention, paying attention to who your dog is, not who you think they are, but who they are, being curious about their behavior rather than always trying to interpret it or fix it or change it. I'm just being curious about what's going on, and you know, in the process, also I'm sort of trying to do some active teaching of dog ethology, and having people, for example, build ethograms for themselves-a bark ethogram. You know, when does your dog bark? What do those barks sound like? What other vocalizations do they make? Just to invite people to pay attention and be observant, and it's part of-I'd say-part of my larger philosophical project in the sense that I really think ethics is about training our attention. It's about training what we see and how we see, and you know, it's not. I I don't think it's this. Like there are these abstract values or principles that we're trying to discover. We discover ethics through through life. I guess through experience. So I talk about now. This is really a book in field ethics or experiential ethics, you could say, or embodied ethics, and that we really become different by through the process of living mindfully in whatever context we are we are in. So.
PJ Wehry 5:00
I and I I don't have it up here for me. What are some books that lay the foundation for the larger philosophical project? Because I looked at your list of books, and I I have to confess I don't remember all of them off the top of my head. You have quite a few. It's quite an achievement. What what would be a good book for someone looking at that larger philosophical project?
Jessica Pierce 5:22
That's a good question. I mean, I think it's-I would say it's not explicit yet in my other books. That's this is what's emerging for me in how I'm writing about ethics, and so it will be apparent in my next book. It is apparent in all of my books so far, to some extent. You know, for example, my book "A Dog's World" is a thought experiment about, you know, what would happen to the billion pet dogs on the planet if humans disappeared tomorrow. You know, there's a all inclusive rapture event or something, and we're gone. Would dogs survive without us, and what would their life be like? And I wrote this with Mark Beckoff, who's an ethologist and friend of mine. And the what what was really interesting to us as we wrote the book, and we really tried to base it in science and behavior, behavior of dogs and wolves, and the evolutionary history of dogs. And our conclusion was that dogs would actually do just fine without us, and in fact, probably be better off ultimately. And that was really eye opening for me because I had, I think, been in more of a "we're doing dogs a huge favor by taking care of them" framework in you know in my own mind, and I think that's baloney. Now that I've thought about it more carefully, or at least partially baloney, you know, there's truth to it too. But I think it that really helped shift my perspective, and so in all my all of my books have have done that to some extent, but not as I'd say not as in quite an embodied way as this most recent, and the book that I am thinking about writing next, or one book at least, is about fire. I became a firefighter about three years ago, a volunteer firefighter in my mountain community. That's all there is here is a volunteer department, and I live in what's called the the Wui, the wildland urban interface, which is extremely risky in terms of wildfire. I'm up in the mountains. It's you know in the southwestern United States, and becoming a firefighter has so radically changed the way I pay attention to my environment, to things around me, to everything from you know the the slope that I'm hiking on. Am I on north facing, south facing? Like things that I might not have been aware of,
PJ Wehry 8:20
yeah,
Jessica Pierce 8:20
before entering into this world, and and just it's really invited a pretty profound shift in just how I see the land that I'm interacting with, and also the human community. So that's another another example of field ethics for me, just a very different one, but also really very much the same too. It's changed the to use a couple of philosophical terms: the saliences, the moral saliences, like what what am I open to seeing now as significant that I might not have even noticed before? And the other phrase that my husband said, "Don't you dare ever use that in print or speaking, but I have to because I like it. It's phenomenological recalibration. You're. Isn't that wonderful?
PJ Wehry 9:25
Yeah, you are. You are on the right podcast. No, you are on the right podcast for that. But I can understand why. Yeah, yeah.
Jessica Pierce 9:34
So the the idea is, you know, that you you have these kind of gestalt shifts. So your your perception of the world is is altered by your experience by something that you've learned through experience. So there you go.
PJ Wehry 9:51
Yeah, absolutely. Well, one thank you for no, not at all. One, thank you for your your service as a firefighter. I don't think people realize how much of that is actually volunteer. I was shocked to find that out recently. It's interesting. I just found out. Yeah,
Jessica Pierce 10:08
yeah, yeah. And I should say so that people know, it's roughly three quarters of all firefighters in the United States are volunteer. I was shocked when I learned that. Like you got to be kidding. So. yeah.
PJ Wehry 10:23
It's it's speaking of phenomenological recalibration, and I'm just curious what your thoughts are on a couple things that you you really laid out some beautiful conversational threads. I'd love to get into, but the first one is there was a book that was really impactful for me. It's written by Joel F. Harrington, called "The Faithful Executioner, and it was about through one man's journey. It was a story of justice in 17th century, late 16th century German justice. And one of the things that was really fascinating to me, and I just hadn't. I mean, the book was full because it was so rich with medieval, not medieval, early modern detail. It was, I there were just so many things that weren't really the point of the book. I was like, wait, what? So, for instance, it was worth. They didn't have the infrastructure we do for dealing with fires. So, if you threatened arson, you could be executed just for threatening arson, because because they didn't. I I you know it's one of those things I like looked at, and then that's part of. I was like, wait, that's firefighting thing's pretty important, right? Like you're like it's it's one of those things that we just take for granted because it's invisible to us. Like of course I can call, and a bunch of volunteer people will just come help put out the my my fire. Yeah, I it is that a good example of maybe awakening, or am I tracking it all with your idea of just to say it phenomenological recalibration?
Jessica Pierce 11:58
Yes, for sure, and just yeah, I think both in terms of for me how emergency response actually occurs, and we don't we're we're what you would call an all hazard department, which means anything that comes up of an emergency nature, and in fact, most of what we do is medical calls or rescue, search and rescue. Yesterday, we went on a rescue of a a guy who it was a welfare check. Actually, guy who told his wife, "I'm
PJ Wehry 12:39
done, or
Jessica Pierce 12:39
his soon to be divorced wife, and so you know how do you respond to that? And you know car accidents in the canyon. I'm shocked at the number of people who drive, not just a little drunk, but like intoxicated beyond, like can barely walk. We were on one recently, and we opened the passenger door to look for the guy's phone, and all these little bottles of you know empty bottles of all poured out onto the tarmac. I'm like, oh, that's that's problematic For you, and then in terms also of my, I think my sense of the natural world changed a lot. Like
Jessica Pierce 13:31
I didn't used to be as aware of the weather, and you know, once you are trained in fire, you you know, lesson A on the first day is the most important driver of fire is weather. Yeah. So you know what kind of weather though, and so I'm much more aware now of when it's hot, when it's dry, when it's windy, and a situational awareness-that's the the phrase that comes up a lot in our training. Just keeping your eyes open to where you are, what's happening, who's around you, what's around you, and other-you know-I'll stop talking then after this example. But you know, another way in which things were recalibrated for me. Was I had this idea that fire was dangerous, scary, bad, and my thinking about that is totally recalibrated now, and I understand that fire is actually good, Necessary, really scary. You know the the danger. Yeah, that doesn't change. Yeah, like viscerally. But but what what is dangerous has shifted in my mind too. So, and that's just that's been. Really interesting for me to. I live differently now in my brain.
PJ Wehry 15:06
Yes, and and I think that's a great example. And you know, I I don't know. It depends on the audience, of course, but I can see why you gravitate towards phenomenological recalibration. I just, But one, I really appreciate your, and I think that's an important part of what I want to do on this podcast is to keep things interdisciplinary. And so, for instance, I have philosophers of art on, but I'll have artists on too, and it's really interesting. Yeah, that's a very different perspective, right? And so, when you're talking about ethics, you're you have a full. You know, I ask, what's the foundation for your project? And you're like, you're writing very. Your focus is on experiential ethics, and you're writing ethics experientially, and you're living that out. And I really appreciate that rejection of kind of an armchair ethics. Is that a fair way to?
Jessica Pierce 16:00
Yeah, yeah, absolutely is, and I think part of the reason I've ended up here is my discomfort and dissatisfaction with the ethics that I learned and taught. Even when I my first job after getting my PhD, was at a medical school teaching medical ethics, and I did not know the first thing about being a doctor from the perspective of somebody who was doing that work. And you know, I was coming in and talking about you know justice is fairness and deontological ethics, and I can see now why that fell so flat.
PJ Wehry 16:45
Yeah,
Jessica Pierce 16:45
because it was not interesting to them. It wasn't relevant to them, and it didn't connect with what they were experiencing. It didn't help them become better people in meaningful ways. Even teaching undergraduates again, you know, there's this corpus, and I understand. I mean, in a way, you're teaching a historical moment. You're teaching Kant and Hegel, and you know, whatever Mill. But also, so you're teaching students to be bored by philosophy, to think that it doesn't have any real traction in their lives, and I was always uncomfortable teaching that way. But I didn't really. I think my my solution to it at the time was to introduce a lot of case study work, and one of my early books was it's called Morality Play, and it's just a collection of case studies that, I mean, they still have the problem of being abstract. You know, you're reading about something like, you know, the in the in the most recent version, rolling coal or, you know, transgender bathrooms, and trying, you know, that the goal of the book is to present a very neutral. You know, there are many sides to this. Let's talk about it. But if you're not experiencing those things again, it's. I think it's still useful, but the most interesting ethical transformation, I guess, in in my own experience has been through living. Like living with dogs is what made me question everything that I was that I knew about dogs and was doing, and it. I mean, this was a project of my my dog ethics of 20 years of living with dogs, and I still, I would say, like at beginner level, maybe you know, grade four, in terms of really being perceptive and empathetic, and so on. It's just, it's not something you can accomplish without a lifetime plus. And it's really, you know, it's the the project that we set out upon as children, and you know, hopefully continue until we die.
PJ Wehry 19:21
Hmm. and I appreciate that. I I've told this story on here before, but I just and I want to make sure partly that I'm tracking with you, and just maybe adding something. I went. I did an ethics class with my wife, and all the students started talking, and we were talking about life and death situations, and we were kind of-it wasn't the trolley problem, but we were talking about medical things back and forth, back and forth. People were making some points, and other people, and it was very just not jovial, but like we were enjoying the like back and forth about it.
Jessica Pierce 19:58
Yeah,
PJ Wehry 19:59
and. That had gone on about 15 minutes. I think the teacher was allowing us to do that. To like, we saw we were engaged. Yeah. And then one student kind of raised his hand and said, "You guys are talking about this, but my wife had a possibility of cancer, and they needed to deal with it. But she was pregnant, and they said, "I I can't remember the exact situation, but basically, there was a procedure that need that they needed to have done.
Jessica Pierce 20:33
Yeah,
PJ Wehry 20:34
and it would have harmed the baby, and she said no, and he was like, "Honey, you need to do this. I can't. I can't afford to lose you. And she said no, and then ended up being okay, and she ended up having the baby. He's like, "And I almost cost my child their life, you know. And it's amazing how all of a sudden, like you know, everyone was like, "Oh, that was you know, yeah, yeah. Everyone's like, "Okay, we're being a little too glib about all that, you know. It's it, and that just comes from that living moment.
Jessica Pierce 21:08
Yeah, I think that's a really good story to illustrate because I think one of the things that has become more and more apparent to me, and what I'm trying to explore in my writing, is that ethics is not about some ideal state or aspirational. It's about mucking through really complex, not even just decisions, but I mean, because that's too Intellectual, but living through these experiences that where there is no clear right or wrong. You know, there's there's those are all mixed together, and you just have to choose a path, And it's going to be tragic in a number of ways, and it's not going to feel right. But you got to choose something, and so it's just imperfect and messy, and just doing the the best you can, and I really do mean that. The best that you can, with what you have, and and including your own resources, your own where you are in your life, what what experiences you've had so far, and yeah.
PJ Wehry 22:39
Now this is this is a while back, but it was one thread I wanted to tug on when you were talking about a dog's world. One, thank you for that answer. I I didn't have anything more to add, but I should have said I appreciated the answer. I was like, well, that's good. We should talk about something else. So thank you. I really appreciated that. But I. I did also wanted to pull on on this thread. You were talking about most dogs would survive, and you're like, yeah, some you know some dogs would be better off. It's interesting to me, and I'm curious about if this is ties into some of the ethics that comes from that kind of thought experiment that the dogs that are most dependent on us are also the least healthy, and here I'm thinking specifically of pure breeding and the way that we have we have created like of course those dogs would all die, and that's because we have honestly mutated them, and I'll use that kind of like into something that they really Shouldn't be.
Jessica Pierce 23:42
Yes, is that a good example of what we're
PJ Wehry 23:44
talking about?
Jessica Pierce 23:44
Yes, it is, and I think that oddly enough, although it also makes sense from a psychological perspective, we like dogs best when they are deeply dependent on us, like we value their dependence, and there was a really interesting study. I believe it was by James Serkel on. He's he's not a psychologist. He's a veterinary ethicist. Very interesting work, though. He he found that people were most deeply attached to dogs who had medical issues. It was like the bond was especially strong, and that people actually go out of their way to pick the least healthy, you know, most problematic dog that they can because they get to be a caregiver, and that's kind of strange because then we also, when our dogs are dependent on us, get irritated by that. It's like oh, dogs can't do anything right apparently, and. I think as as dog keeping has developed over the last 10 or 20 years, there's been this kind of funneling effect, where more and more dogs are less and less healthy, both physically and psychologically, and more and more unhappy, and we have. I think the the cultural, the whole cultural situation, is really interesting and bizarre. Really, as it relates to dogs, like what dogs seem to represent if you look at social media, and the the dogs who are most popular in terms of like getting the most hits on TikTok or whatever, and also the most purchases are those that like French bulldogs, pugs, the ones that really suffer, and that's a really bizarre thing to do to your best friend, don't you think?
PJ Wehry 26:15
Yeah, yeah, your best friend. Yes. Yeah.
Jessica Pierce 26:18
And yes, I so that's been an interesting change for me when I started writing about dogs 1518, years ago. I did it because so I started out my career in writing about environmental ethics and particularly about environmental change, if you want to, I'm putting that in scare quotes. Climate change, water scarcity, and especially how all of this relates to like the Increasingly fragile state of our ecosystems and how how those interact with human health and particularly with healthcare because I was working in a hospital, you know, healthcare is one of the worst offenders when it comes to like greenhouse gas emissions and production of toxic waste. So that made that.
PJ Wehry 27:24
sorry. I'm sorry. Their healthcare is the biggest one for for greenhouse gasses.
Jessica Pierce 27:28
One of the worst offenders. Yeah, there. It's really, really energy intensive, oil dependence.
PJ Wehry 27:34
Oh, that makes sense. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I was like, I was trying to imagine the carbon dioxide coming. It's because the energy dependence. Okay, that I'm tracking. Go ahead. Sorry.
Jessica Pierce 27:42
Yeah. I mean, in addition to the fact that many of the medical supplies, many many medical supplies are petroleum based. You know, tubing. Oh, you know, when you have a nasal cannula, etc. like top down, and so you have this really weird system where, you know, fixing people after they get harmed by toxic pollution, for example, and get cancer, then requires the creation of more pollutants. That then, you know, and my office at the medical center at the time was right across. So medical ethics here, right across the street was this $42 million cancer center, and then right across from that was the incinerator. So it was this really weird kind of vortex, and I think there's a similar kind of vortex with dogs. So maybe my career is about these vortexes, and I get caught in them, and and then I can't escape. So I I started writing about dogs because I found that I'm
PJ Wehry 28:47
sorry. But then you're you're now focusing on fire, which is like literally vortex. Sorry, sorry, that was anyway. Okay, please get to the
Jessica Pierce 28:57
psychologist. I think do some careful work. That's
Speaker 1 29:00
really
PJ Wehry 29:01
okay. I apologize. Literal vortex is okay.
Jessica Pierce 29:04
Yeah, I do think there's some truth to this, and there it's an interesting place to be in a vortex, and it's also it's one of those places where there's no right because it's all bad. You know, it's all bad in a certain way, and also there's a lot of beauty and extraordinary things that occur in a vortex.
PJ Wehry 29:25
Yeah,
Jessica Pierce 29:26
but I had after spending 10 years focused on the environmental situation, and you know, subsequently being depressed and not being able to sleep and having an ulcer, you know, and I had a young child. I'm like, this is not a a place that I can be all the time in my brain. So I was like, I need to do something that makes me happy. So dogs make me happy. I love dogs, and it wasn't actually a happy book. The first one that I. Wrote about dogs was the last walk, which is about the death of my dog Odie. It was about the last year of his life, and that was a phenomenological recalibration too. Because you know, in in bioethics, my home field, you know, the bread and butter is death and dying. Like that's, you know, that's part one of every syllabus and the biggest part of every syllabus: ethical issues and death and dying. When is it okay to remove a feeding tube? When is it okay to, you know, is it ever okay to assist somebody? And so these issues that were kind of abstract. All of a sudden, these are really real in the context of caring for this beloved creature who was nearing the end of his life. And like, why isn't anybody talking about how to work through this? How to go on this last walk with your animal and do it as well as you can? And here we're in a vortex, of course, where it's all kind of bad, but you're going to do the best you can in a bad situation. And it was really for me a profound experience, both to usher him through the end. And we did, in fact, choose euthanasia, which I had a lot of reservations about, and feel still bad about in some respects, even though I think it was the right choice. So that was a lesson in how messy field ethics, how messy it is,
PJ Wehry 31:47
yeah,
Jessica Pierce 31:48
and how much you're muddling through, and how much you learn through experience. Because with my the two dogs that came after Odie, it it's still hard and it's different, but it was better. Like I knew at least what to expect to some extent. But this, sorry, this is a very long-winded way of what what started out as a place that made me happy with dogs. Eventually, like with who's a good dog, I found myself getting. I was kind of depressed again, like thinking all day long about what's happening to companion dogs who are living as pets is hard because they're suffering a lot, and even even well cared for dogs, and that's in scare quotes. Are are really struggling, and we're not doing well by them. So that was kind of a reckoning for me too, because I live with a. Well, I did. I did live with a dog. My friend Bella died just four months ago. I'm actually dog free for the first time in 30 years. Well, really, forever. I didn't have a dog in graduate school, college, but I had my family dogs. So this is a new place for me to be. But I, I was becoming more and more uncomfortable with the project of dog keeping. So this actually feels better ethically, which is a weird thing for a dog ethicist to say, and I, I'm interested to see how you know when Who's a Good Human comes out in November, and you know, getting doing the PR stuff, is it going to be awkward to say, well, I don't actually have a dog. Maybe, like, am I a poser?
PJ Wehry 33:43
Oh, you have 30 years. I think I think that counts for something. You know,
Jessica Pierce 33:51
I think in many of the people I know who are the best, most ethical dog owners don't have dogs.
PJ Wehry 34:00
As
Jessica Pierce 34:01
funny as that sounds, because having a dog is is problematic in so many ways. Anyway, well,
PJ Wehry 34:11
I was going to say this earlier, and now from there. Well, I was going to mention that we have a one year old dog, but now I'm like, maybe I shouldn't have one. No, no, no! Please let's go.
Jessica Pierce 34:24
Let's explore this.
PJ Wehry 34:26
Yes, but his name is.
Jessica Pierce 34:29
Yeah, you have 15 years at least of moral constraint and confusion ahead of you.
PJ Wehry 34:37
Yeah. Well, his name is Odie.
Jessica Pierce 34:40
Oh, really? Yes, I I E or O D Y, as in so
PJ Wehry 34:46
so we we change it to Odysseus, but the the we got him at five months already trained, and so he already had the name Odie, and it was from Garfield, and our household's a little. Bit more, like we're reading the the kids and I and my wife are going to read the Iliad and the Odyssey together. So we're like we're going to move more towards
Jessica Pierce 35:08
that. I love that we're moving
PJ Wehry 35:10
towards our actually it was my daughter's idea. Like, can we call him Odysseus and then short Nadodia? Like, so that's it's actually kind of both. We're we're kind of moved over, but
Jessica Pierce 35:19
yeah, that's that's classic, yeah. So ours ours was Odysseus Odie, Sadie's rigorous Odysseus, which is a handful because Odie was a Bishla. Is your Odie a Vichla? Probably not.
PJ Wehry 35:34
No Jolo.
Jessica Pierce 35:37
What's that?
PJ Wehry 35:38
So so
Jessica Pierce 35:40
Jolo,
PJ Wehry 35:41
and I use that, so I can't say the full thing. It's Jolo quintuelle, and I probably just butchered
Speaker 2 35:45
it. Oh,
Jessica Pierce 35:46
yeah. They're,
PJ Wehry 35:47
it's a Mexican hairless, but it's a coated variety. He's coated. That was important to me. Yeah, I will say I got there, and the the breeder was like, she had some hairless, and she's like, they're actually great. You just have to lotion them once a day, and I and then I petted him just to see what it felt like. And she's like, "Oh, sorry, that one's a teen. He has acne. I was like, "Oh
Jessica Pierce 36:10
no, seriously? I'm not
PJ Wehry 36:12
gonna lie. Oh yeah, I was like, I yeah, I wasn't interested anyways. But yeah, I'm not looking to lotion my dog every day.
Jessica Pierce 36:20
Wow. Yeah. Anyway,
PJ Wehry 36:21
sorry. So part of the reason we went with because we did some research, and originally I wanted a lazy dog, probably because I wanted a pet, right? And showlos can be lazy, but for me, they I have five kids, a lot of them younger, and I wanted to understand the temperament more, like than just getting it from a rescue. And so, I mean, I'm open myself up here. We'll see. Let's see what the verdict is. But I also was very leery. Jolos are they vary from 25 pounds to 70 pounds, and they're that
Jessica Pierce 37:02
big.
PJ Wehry 37:03
Yeah, they're very diverse. Yes, he's the he's as big as they get. Odie is very big, but they that they're very not overbred. They're not very popular, and they're very old. So the reason they got purebred status was because they are very old, but they have almost no like their expected life. Their life expectancy is 16 to 20, and so that to me, that to me was important. Like the I didn't want at first. You know, I kind of looked at dogs and I was like, oh, you know, like an English bulldog, and then they're describing it's like, hey, just so you know, it'll like suffocate to death. And I was like, I
Jessica Pierce 37:39
yeah,
PJ Wehry 37:40
I don't want that. I was like, yeah. So, and he's, anyways. I there's there was a lot of reasons. I also dogs that are good with kids. A lot of them are very long furred, and we're in Central Florida, and so
Jessica Pierce 37:56
yeah,
PJ Wehry 37:56
Mexican hairless. He's he loves the heat. I mean, no one loves Florida heat, but he's at least comfortable going out in it, and so that was important to me. But I, you know, even as I have experienced this, and I'll say it even stronger than that. And I am, and I'm wrestling with this: is that like we say pet? I thought you were going to say property because that is definitely I am wrestling with like well this is a I mean he he doesn't think like a human but he does think and he has emotions and he has feelings he's and we when we got him part of the reason we got him is he was supposed to be a show dog and he was too timid which actually I thought would work better with the
Jessica Pierce 38:39
yeah
PJ Wehry 38:39
with the kids they're fine if they they're acclimated to kids. That's how. So, anyways, that was really long. But so I have this guy. He's he looks guilty all the time, and I'm like, "You're fine, buddy. You know what I mean? Like he just it's it's part of he's his. Maybe he's
Jessica Pierce 38:57
Catholic. He's a Catholic dog.
PJ Wehry 38:59
Yeah, it's a Roman Catholic. Oh yeah, that's funny. Anyways, I and I'm I'm happy to you know this is um this is due territory for me on the podcast, but I'm happy to hear what your thoughts are on that. I mean that's part of the project your book, right? Like I mean we haven't gotten exactly that, but I think this is good foundation that it's not just how do I make my dog better? It's like, how does my dog shape me, and how can I be a better owner? Right?
Jessica Pierce 39:25
Yeah, yeah. And I think that you already, in your description of how you chose Odie, you're doing pretty well. Like you've you've thought about a lot of things that are important. For example, just taking the last point about coat and being in Florida, so many people don't think about that. And you see, you go to Phoenix and you see these, you know, Malamutes, and they're just dying. You can tell it's so uncomfortable. They can't go outside, you know, between, you know, in. Eight months out of the year, and think why didn't somebody think about that aspect of the choice that they made? And and there are so many of those little micro. I mean, that's a big, but micro choices. And
PJ Wehry 40:17
yeah, the
Jessica Pierce 40:19
more you can, the more of those you can accumulate. I think the the better your choices will be. I don't like the word pet, but I also think it's more accurate in some ways than companion, because oh
PJ Wehry 40:35
yeah.
Jessica Pierce 40:36
Although I use I use companion in my writing often because it's very fraught for me, the choice of word and property is accurate too. I often will describe dogs as captive animals, though that people find that really bothersome. Like my dog's not captive. My dog's free. My dog is you know runs around my house all day long. I'm like, well, okay, that's not quite what I meant. Yeah, and that actually, I think, invites an important shift for people, though phenomenological shift, because they really are captive in important respects, and it's not so different from the captivity that's experienced by an animal in a zoo or an animal in a lab. They're confined to a certain space. They don't have usually much choice about being in that space. You know, we don't ask our dog, "Hey, would you like to come live with me? Let me give you a tour first, and tell you what it's going to be like, and then you can tell me if you think that looks good. You know, we don't do that. We don't give them the option to opt out if they don't like it. They don't get to choose when they go to the bathroom, where they don't get to choose what they eat, and you know, it's all very like being a prisoner, kind of. And you know, I think what's important for people to know about that is that there's this whole phenomenon called captivity effects. You can see it really clearly in humans who've been like prisoners of war, or even incarcerated, particularly in solitary confinement, and also animals. That there are like actual physiological changes that occur as a result of captivity. The brain is rewired in ways that are not conducive to happy life, and and so keeping dogs in the way we do has measurable impacts on them, both as individuals, and I think also it's just sort of as this cultural Phenomenon, and then you say, "Okay, well, I get that. Then what do I do about it? Because you know, here we are in this situation. I have, I have a dog who I love, and yet I live in this. You know, the institutions within which we keep dogs don't really allow for much dog freedom. You know, it's illegal for my dog to go outside by herself when she's not on a leash with a collar around her neck. So how do I give her freedom if I can't give her freedom? So you have to look for like these micro interventions, you can give a lot of choice, and I'd say a good bit of, in fact, a whole chapter of who's a good human is about how to explore giving your dog choice, having having choices, and being able to make meaningful choices and guide your life in meaningful ways from moment to moment are associated with positive welfare. So, you know, why wouldn't you want to do that for your dogs? And how can you how can you enact that within the constraints of of a home home life? And there are a lot of ways you can. You just gotta work at it.
PJ Wehry 44:24
Yeah, I mean, even the the lady who gave him to us crate trained him and told him he wants that, and you need to keep him in that. And I don't even understand how that plays into some of this, but immediately,
Jessica Pierce 44:37
like, how do you know that a dog wants to be in a crate. I wonder, especially if they've been trained to be in a crate.
PJ Wehry 44:45
Right. No. Right. Yeah. I like
Jessica Pierce 44:49
what they've been. Yeah. It's bizarre. Yeah. We can. And I don't
PJ Wehry 44:53
even know discussion on
Jessica Pierce 44:54
crates.
PJ Wehry 44:57
Yeah. I absolutely. And I. And at this point. Like I don't know what would even happen if we like tried to get rid of crates, right? Like I I don't know, but I think there's there's something here, and I want to be respectful of your time. There's something I've wanted to ask the whole time because I I could feel it, and I I totally understand this. Is like when you talk about this, you get a lot of knee jerk reactions. I'm sure. I
Jessica Pierce 45:25
do.
PJ Wehry 45:25
What are some of the what are some of the common knee jerk reactions, and how do you answer them?
Jessica Pierce 45:32
Um, I'd say the most common knee jerk reaction I get is, "How dare you, you self-righteous, entitled prick? That's very. How do you how do you answer that one? And then, then where did you buy your PhD? And and the the emails that I get are almost always addressed to Ms. Pierce, I it depends, you know. I if I get an email from somebody who genuinely is troubled by what I've said and interested to talk about it, and I do get those. Like you know, I'm I'm really bothered by the fact that you called my dog a captive. You know, he's not captive. He's got all kinds of freedoms. And then we can have a conversation about, you know, well, what does freedom mean to you, and how does your dog respond to that? And you know, do you think that there are ways in which more freedom might be valuable? The the emails that I get from people that are just troll like, I don't respond to because I think they're just troll like. But anyone who wants to have a conversation about this, I I appreciate that, and you know I think there are a lot of there are a lot of people I've found who have who really anti dog is the word that's coming to my mind. They're really bothered by it's not that they're bothered by dogs per se, but they're bothered by the way dog keeping practices have evolved in our in the United States in particular. I think this might be true elsewhere as well, but you know it's really hard now to live here and not have to interact with dogs regularly. You know, you go to the park and dogs are off lead. They're in the restaurants. They're in the shops. They're next door to you, and I, I would not underestimate the difficulty of living, for example, next to a dog who barks all day long and all night long. You know, it's we're a little mountain community. It comes up occasionally, and it's not the dog's fault. It's usually, you know, it's it's the way the dog is being cared for that results in this compulsive barking Behavior, but it's it's hard for people who don't want to have that, and it I think it creates a certain amount of animus toward towards dogs because dog people are often not very sympathetic to others who say I'm you know I don't want to interact with your dog. It's like what's wrong with my dog? My dog is so cute. How could you not want my dog to jump on you? And I do really try to engage with this kind of anti-dog contingent because I sympathize with it. I think that it's really important for dog people to be more ethical, hey, responsible,
PJ Wehry 49:07
yeah,
Speaker 3 49:10
yeah,
Jessica Pierce 49:11
to not just to dogs, but to their human community, human neighbors, and you know, it's not people who don't like dogs aren't necessarily character flawed. You know, there are good people who don't like dogs, and so yeah. Is that? I think I answered your question. Yeah,
PJ Wehry 49:37
yeah, yeah. Oh, but I don't. I got really interested.
Jessica Pierce 49:43
I don't actually get the hate mail as much as you'd think.
PJ Wehry 49:48
Yeah, I just when you talk about they're supposed to be companions and not pets, I just I could see people immediately, even some of the things that are said to me on a regular basis. It's just like I. They don't use the word property because that would be an ugly word. But I'm like, you definitely see these like this is very similar to furniture, right?
Jessica Pierce 50:07
Yes, yeah, especially like a prized base. Yeah, you check one out from the Humane Society, and if you don't like it, you take it back. Say, I'd like a like to try a different story.
PJ Wehry 50:21
Yeah.
Jessica Pierce 50:21
Yeah.
PJ Wehry 50:21
Absolutely. Now, and two more questions for you, and I'll let you go if you don't mind. The first one is as a as a working model that's kind of outside this. Are working dogs or outdoor dogs better examples of how we? And by that I mean I knew a family who had a farm, and they weren't working dogs, but they just had two dogs that ran around outside. They weren't allowed in the house because obviously, I think that this was up north. They were very hairy and very very smelly, right? But yeah, is that are those better models?
Jessica Pierce 51:00
I guess I would I would answer that by saying there are a lot of models that are good. I think that, and I guess what I mean by that is I think you could have a working dog situation that was miserable for the dog. Yeah,
PJ Wehry 51:16
right.
Jessica Pierce 51:16
And you can also have situations that are really like a great life, so it is context dependent. And pet pet dogs, I think, also can have great lives. I don't want to sound too negative about that. In fact, I think most of the time they do. But I think the thing about working dogs is that they do they have meaningful work, and that's really important to at least to mammals, and probably even you know that's probably taxonomically even more widespread evolutionary speak evolutionarily speaking. Getting a reward for doing hard work makes sense, and then when you when you don't have that hard work, and I think that's one of the things that maybe misunderstandings that people have about living with dogs is that they think providing their dog with everything they need-you know, you put a bowl of food down, they don't have to do any work, and you take care of everything-that this is a good thing for dogs. And I sort of challenge people to rethink that a little bit. Dogs need meaningful work, whether it's foraging for their own food or you know this this could come out in a lot of different ways. Working dogs do have meaningful work usually if it's if it's meaningful to them.
PJ Wehry 52:40
Yeah, I'm thinking of a collie on a sheep farm, something like that.
Jessica Pierce 52:43
Yeah, yeah, and even yesterday on this rescue call that we went on, I got a ride down from this. We were kind of in a remote area. Got a ride down with one of the sheriffs, and it was the canine sheriff, and he had his dog, his bloodhound Watson, was there, and that helped locate this person. And Hudson, I have to say, looked like he had a really good life. You know, he lives with this gentleman in his home as a friend, and does this work every day of you know finding stuff and finding people. And a collie on a farm, I think that's that can be great. And does the fact that a dog doesn't get to come inside mean they have a bad life? No, not at all. Yeah, you know, dogs have lived outside for most of their evolutionary history and still do today. So, yeah, yeah. Okay, next question.
PJ Wehry 53:40
Yeah, yeah, and well, and just the the question I like to ask my guests at the end, and one I will say, I often have professors on, and it is hard to find the practical application. Your book, because it has the journal built into it, has this kind of automatic practical application. But besides buying and reading, you know, pre-ordering who's a good human, practical exercises for living mindfully with dogs. Besides buying and reading your excellent book, working through it, what would you recommend to somebody who has listened to us for the last hour that they either meditate on or do in response over the next week?
Jessica Pierce 54:19
I would say the habit of mind that seems most important to me, and also the most fun in relationship to dogs or other animals, pets and wild animals, flowers. You know, family members. You could apply this anywhere. Is curiosity, and you said something about being an expert at the beginning, or not being-I don't remember. Anyway, you used the word expert, and one of the things that I talk about in this book, and also in Who's a Good Dog, is the this concept of beginners. Mind that just drawn from Zen Buddhism, and the idea is that you approach each moment as if you were a total beginner. So you don't come with all of these already developed ideas about what it is, you know, that you're dealing with, but really approach it from the mind of a total beginner, which is one of you know curiosity and openness and excitement. And you know if you've lived with your dog for 10 years, you might say, "Well, I know them. I don't need to be curious. But say if you were curious for a week, you'd be surprised at how much more you know them at the end of that time. And I think it just what I like about curiosity too is that it creates this kind of breadth between an event happening and our response to it. And I think often our responses to dogs are going back to the bark example, which I've come come around to several times, you know, often the the reaction that we have is annoyance or irritation, or you know, and like it can make your blood pressure spike when your dog starts to bark and you weren't expecting it. So curiosity would then invite you to take a breath and say, "Huh, I wonder what my dog was trying to communicate right there. What did that bark sound like? How did that compare with the bark that she just did an hour ago when you know something else happened? And and I think that just shifts your mindset from
PJ Wehry 56:42
yeah one
Jessica Pierce 56:42
of irritation to one of curiosity, which seems better to me. Yeah, like the path to being a better human is being a more curious. Yeah,
PJ Wehry 56:53
yeah, and very doable. And I and like what you're outlining there, of course, is going to make you a better spouse or son or daughter or father or mother. I like a better sibling. You're just going to instead of being like, "Wow, that person's annoying. It's like, "I wonder why they did that. It's just and the breath. Yeah, it's so. Thank you. It's so practical. I really appreciate it. It's been a joy. Thank you so much for for coming on.
Jessica Pierce 57:22
Yeah, you're you're welcome. It was a really interesting conversation.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai