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Podcast host and thriller author David Temple gives you a front-row seat to the best thriller writers in the world. If you like thriller fiction in Books, Movies, and TV Shows, you’ll love The Thriller Zone Podcast.
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (00:00.13)
Hi there, I'm TJ Newman, author of Worst Case Scenario, and I'm hanging out with my buddy David Temple on The Thriller Zone. Hello and welcome to The Thriller Zone. I'm your host David Temple. Glad you're here. And on today's 195th and now official final episode of season six, I'm so happy and super honored to welcome New York Times bestselling author, TJ Newman.
Now, as you've heard me say time and again, there's nothing like being face to face with my favorite thriller writers. So a big thanks to my team at Reframe Studios in Los Angeles for helping me put together today's episode. Now, today's show will entertain by making you laugh, cry, and who knows, maybe even get inspired to do something bold. It most certainly promises to highlight the shining talents of one of the biggest authors in the world today.
As you know, TJ debuted with a smash hit Falling, which became a number one national and Apple bestseller and a number two New York Times, USA Today, and LA Times bestseller, as well as being Simon & Schuster's fastest selling hardcover fiction debut in the past 20 years. Now, a year later, TJ followed it up with a second smash hit
the Amazon best book of the year, whose film rights, get this, sold for seven figures in a five -way studio bidding war in Hollywood. And folks, TJ is back to give it her best shot at topping those first two books with a soon -to -release worst -case scenario, a book that Don Winslow says has more impossible missions than mission impossible. So kick back, relax, and please join me in welcoming the -so -talented, lovely, and gracious TJ Newman.
Well, I want to say welcome back because this is a return appearance. And each time you come back, your world seems to get bigger. Yeah, it's crazy. And it's so fun to be doing this in person and not over the computer. I this. This is great. Yeah. We talk about this a lot lately about how much better it is to be able to actually sit here and see expressions and laugh and breathe the same
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (02:14.701)
And the Zoom, you know, serves some purpose, kind of gotten a little fatigue out of it. Yeah. It's, they both have their time and place, but I'm partial to the in -person. love this. So thank you so much for having me here in the studio. 100%. And it was so neat. She's walking down the driveway there and we're like, whoa, finally in person. You exist in real life. Yeah, you're not Avatar. You're 3D. Well, I've often been accused of burying the lead.
So on this particular podcast, I thought, I'm not going to bury the lead. I'm not going to do all that ramp up, warm up stuff. Fantastic. my gosh. Thank you. Just stunning. And if I can expound on that a little bit. we all, we all came along with falling and we're like, wait, what? Wait, what? Amazing in of itself. Did pretty well. Drowning comes along and you're like, well, what's going to be next? Then drowning comes along. You're like, my
you up the ante, like can you ratchet it up anymore? And I'm like, so when I'm thinking about you and I'm like, okay, next year she's gonna be coming out with something. This is before I knew about this book, talking about turning the ratchet up to come up with a worst case scenario, bam. Yeah, the title is literal. I really tried to figure out what I thought the worst case scenario could be. And there you have it. And you're in the very beginning of the book, you start out feeling,
It's a little bit of falling kind of drowning. And then it just takes a turn. Well, and I'm gonna flash, I'm just, hold on. I'm gonna geek on you a little bit. I could geek out about just how cool it is to sit down with you. So I'll do that. Geek out about all the facts about you. I got more facts about you and I'm not going to belabor them because there's hundreds of them. Like I've never seen as many facts about you, but I'll get to that. But it's the way that you took this story.
And we're both film buffs. I've followed you on social media enough to know. And I'm like, this is like an Independence Day or like a war of the worlds that meets a Chernobyl and with a plane and with this whole community. So that is a tee up for you to share with me that great big juicy elevator pitch that tells me, hold
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (04:40.989)
You described it perfectly. Those movies, those kinds of stories, that's my bread and butter. That's what I was raised on. That's what I love. That's the stories that I love to tell. That's the way my brain works, for better or for worse. That's how I kind of see stories. And when I was trying to figure out what to write for my third book, you mentioned my first two books and how falling, drowning my second
was bigger than falling. And when it came time to write this, was, that was my goal was just, okay, well, how do I make it even bigger for the next one? And I went back to the research that I did for falling actually. When I was doing research for falling, I was talking with pilots all the time and I was asking them lots of questions about the nuts and bolts of flying, aviating.
and policy procedure, all those kinds of questions. But I spent a lot of time also talking to them about the psychological side of being a pilot, the emotional side of being a pilot, what that experience is like. And the question I would ask every single time was, what's your biggest fear? And the answers kind of surprised me because they surprised me in how quickly they became repetitive. I heard lots of
wires. Pilots are afraid of getting their planes trapped and caught in power lines. I heard lots of making the wrong call in an emergency situation, lots of fears of freezing and not being able to make any call when they need to, lots of fear of their family, their loved ones, turning their spouses into widows and widowers. And like I said, the answers were very repetitive. I kept hearing the same things over and over again.
Until one day, I had a pilot who tells me, my biggest fear is a commercial aircraft crashing into a nuclear power
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (06:47.885)
And I did what you did. That's sort of like narrowing of the eyes, like, really? see it, wait, what? Huh? Cause they like caught me off guard and I was like, come on. And that's, that's how I reacted to him. kind of brushed him off and I said, that's, but that's not, come on. They've, they've shown, we live in a post 9 -11 world. They've shown us that, you know, major threat positions like that have been fortified. They're, they're safe. They figured it out. They know that these places are, you know, we're good.
It's not a real thing. Even if one did, it would be fine. And he's just listening to me the whole time and just kind of like nodding and listening to me. And when I finished my whole rationalization of why I'm not afraid of this, he just looks and goes, and that's exactly what they want you to
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (07:34.591)
Exactly, and I was like, no disself, circle back to that. And so when I was thinking for this book and I was like, how do I go bigger than falling and drowning? How do I make it even bigger than that? And I remember this and I start researching to see, there anything to that? And boy, was there. And that's when I started thinking, okay, this is the book
I do a lot of research for all my books. The research for this book terrified me. Yeah, let's drill down on that because you've just said something that made me think that I want to turn to the audience and say, because you hear this question pop up, where do you get your ideas, right? Hey guys, that's where you get the idea by listening. So you're asking a question, super logical.
kind of everyday idea, power lines, this, that, and the other. So this idea gets placed in your lap, you get to run with it, but it's so funny, as I was listening to you, I'm like, would that ever really happen? And then when you said, that's the way they want you to think, that's when you just go, whew. Exactly.
And when I started researching this and looking into this, post September 11th, they did tests. They did lots of studies to see how fortified are these facilities, how much of a threat is this truly. And a lot of the tests that were run were put in parameters to deliver a result. And also a lot of the tests that were run, quite frankly,
The results were said under certain circumstances, yes, there are situations in which this could be a problem.
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (09:36.32)
Which I'm reading this research and my eyes are just, you know, starting to bulge when I'm, when I'm seeing what is actually possible at, some, if there was to be an incident like this at a nuclear facility, how do you, how do you stop it? Right. I think that's the, the scariest thing for me is honestly, how do you, how do you stop it? The whole core cooling water, plant, pond, lake
There were so many questions that it made me go, I never knew this. maybe I knew it, but I didn't ever think about it that way until you're confronted with the hard facts. That was a response that I kept having during research. I kept wanting to like look around and be like, am I the only one who didn't know this? Am I the only one that this is like news for? Or is this like common knowledge? Like at a nuclear facility, the most dangerous material, some of the most dangerous material
is located outside of containment. Containment meaning the structurally reinforced, 10 feet wide concrete wall. When we think, you think Chernobyl, you think a blown core, think spewing radiation in the air, the safeguards that have been put up to ensure that something like that doesn't happen, which are sturdy, which are very fortified, which are very much secure.
There's a lot more material at a nuclear power facility that is not in there in just very relatively low secure locations that something could happen to. When I came across that, what you're talking about, and let me make sure I don't give anything away. I won't by saying this. I had to go back. I had to back up and go, okay, I must have missed something because
He certainly couldn't be outside. I'm always thinking inside. There you can't be outside. I'm like, no, it's outside. And that's what freaked me out. Yeah, there's plenty of stuff. in the research, I have some research, it's so funny. Some research that I had printed out, I'm highlighting and making notes in the margins and stuff. And you can see where my, I remember, and you can see it where the underlining stopped, because the highlighting was just like the entire page. And then there's just a note over in the margin at one point of, my God. Yeah.
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (12:00.257)
Because it's just like, I'm reading reports from like the former chair of the NRC. And they're saying, guys, these are major problems that we don't yet have a solution for. And if something is to happen.
We're gonna have a catastrophic event on our hands of the likes of which we've never seen and we have no way to remedy.
When you refer to the margins, I kept thinking, what the fusion? That's new at WTF. So when people are reading this, first of all, it's a great, I use the word popcorn as a means of going, it's like you're going to a movie, which is the highest compliment I can pay you. I take it as a compliment. Okay. And to be clear, this is popcorn fiction.
I'm not a nuclear engineer. I'm not, I, but I can read and I can read the research and this is yeah, my popcorn version of truly horrifying. Okay, good. So I'm glad that's a compliment because it, I was telling the guys, they were like, hey, what do you think about the book? I'm like, it's like hot, buttery, salty, delicious popcorn, maybe with a tiny drizzle of caramel if you're into that, because you start and you cannot stop and you're just licking each finger with it, you know?
So I'm watching the movie in my head and you did this with drowning. When that plane hit the water and then it started filling up from that moment on, which was pretty soon into the film, film, book. I was so in, couldn't get out. And this, this did it again. But what I loved about this one is the way you're bouncing in and out of all the scenarios that are happening all around the catastrophic event.
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (13:54.433)
families, they come in and out like speech bubbles and you get to hear their fears, their anxieties, their surprises, and then the people who don't know what's going on. And that's what I really love. You did it so well to just bounce in and out of it. Thank you. Yeah, with this book, the lens widened, right? Like my first book Falling was a very
very focused view, right? We're talking about one man facing an impossible question and his family in trouble. And then of course the supporting characters, but that's the crux of it. With drowning, it was still a family, but we had 12 passengers who were trapped inside that aircraft at the bottom of the ocean and the entire Naval fleet topside who were working to rescue them. That's bigger. This story,
wide. It is an entire community of a small town and how they interplay with the entire country and how that interplays with the entire world. It was a real challenge that I love trying to figure out how do I grasp for the reader the enormity of this situation.
while still making it make sense on a personal level. And I did that sort of by adding in sort of parallel missions, right? Right. Because you've got, we are potentially facing an extinction level event on a global scale that the likes of which we've never seen. We've also got a rescue mission being led by a small group of people that don't have what they need to save one person.
on a bridge and playing both of those at the same time and sort of bouncing back and forth between them was kind of my way to remind the reader and myself of why are we doing this? Why are we fighting so hard to save this? Because yeah, obviously it sounds like to save the world from ruin sounds thing, but to save your family, to save your friends, to save your children, to save your parents. It's reminding us of what is at stake.
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (16:21.301)
And so I did that for myself and for the reader to remember, you know, why we're sacrificing, why we're working this hard to, to stop this. Well, I think you chose my favorite scene in the whole book is, and I really don't want to give it away, but it involves a bridge and a vehicle and a little boy. I'll just be very generic that way. But the way you reach in
pull my heart out of my chest a couple of times. And then what one of the firefighters said to the, you'll have to refresh my memory. They're all going, you're gonna worry about this when we got all of this going on? And he steps up and goes, then what are we doing this for? And that's when I went, boom. That's the question.
Yeah, I know exactly the moment you're talking about because it's a valid argument. Why are, how can we devote resources to save one kid? Yes. How can we devote the resources when literally the world is on fire? Literally we have to go stop the end of the world, which is a completely valid argument. Yeah. A completely valid argument. And I love living in those, that's, that's harks a lot back to, to falling. This idea of like the lives of one versus many.
And it's an ethical dilemma that doesn't have a clean answer. And I really love living in sort of those gray ethical areas of going, what would you do? What should you do? Is there a right answer? And I don't think that there is. So it's just, I love it. I love those moments. I love that sticky ethical moment in falling where you, the reader walks away going,
jeez, if the question were put to me and I was sitting in that chair and I had to put my finger on the proverbial button and make the call, what would I do? And you can't answer it. You can't answer it. Well, all right, I mentioned earlier, I had a of dozen stats that I wanna share because I have to always remember having done radio my whole life, I have to remember that there are times that people
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (18:41.997)
You got new listeners, new viewers, new readers. They don't know who TJ Newman is. So for those who don't know, I'm looking at falling and drowning. I said I did a little bit of homework. We're both research nuts, so I like that about you. Both were New York Times bestsellers, check. Sold in 35 countries, check. Both had seven figure film studio deals. We know all the big names, check, check. Both were named Amazon best books of the year.
Not an easy feat, check. Both won rave reviews from the biggest authors in the world. Triple check. Now I want you to just let that sink in because there's gonna be some listener going, wait, wait, wait, Dave, tell, TJ, what? This doesn't happen every day. And you're, and I was saying this to the guys before he showed up. I said, you're gonna meet someone who is, I've never seen this before. And I've been around a while. I'm an old
I've never seen these kind of accolades and awards stack up like they have for you. And I just gotta say, silliest question ever, I'll admit it. What does that feel like? I have the same answer now that I had for the first book. And I have a feeling, I now just accepted that it's never not gonna feel this way. And I have no better word for it, but surreal. When you want something so bad for so long,
and you don't get it, because there was a lot of rejection and a lot of uphill getting to this point. I'm not an overnight success. I'm not, you know, this was not handed to me. This was not, I worked really hard to get here. And when you work really hard for something and you keep hearing no, no, no, no over again, that it takes a while to start really accepting the yeses and start accepting.
how it turned out. And I think I've gotten to the point that I've like, okay, I believe it, this has happened, but it still feels surreal. I can't believe my wildest dreams came true and they did. And I beg the pardoning the cliche, because it feels like the same question that everybody's gonna ask you. But I thought about that, I drove up from San Diego today to be here and I was just
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (21:02.027)
And I'm putting, I'm trying to put myself in your shoes. And I just go, I mean, I have a lot of the similar dreams and I, it is the toughest thing to put my hands around. And I'm like, and I try to start every day with a place of gratitude. I thank the universe, the God for everything that I have to be able to walk and breathe. And I'm thinking about you and I'm like, TJ has just got to be hands wide open going, thank you.
So I just want to take that moment to acknowledge it, because it's a beautiful thing to see. I am. I am so grateful.
I'm just so grateful. I mean, like, I don't know how to say it more than that. People read my books. People beside my mom read my books. Like that, if that was the only accolade there was, if it was just people you don't know and aren't a blood relation or your dear friends are spending their hard -earned money and their limited time that they have with stories that you wrote, that you came up
That right there, that's the dream to me. Knowing that the rest of it, of course, is amazing, is incredible, is what allows me to keep doing that. But just knowing that there's people that say, I'm entertained. I liked that. You made me feel something. I cried. I laughed. I was scared. Like knowing that you can do that, that's the ball game to me. That is what it's about. And knowing that I can do that for people
I'm just, I'm grateful. Yeah. I'm grateful. Well, I see the tears in your eyes. I'm kidding. But you know, but that's heart energy that you're coming from. That is pure gratitude at its finest, right? And I think that's the reason we're here. Yeah. I mean, I'm only doing this because I was inspired by all the books that I read and the movies that I watched and the storytellers that told me stories that made me cry and made me laugh and made me, you know, want
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (23:09.867)
to do this as well. So to think that I'm now standing on that side of things with them, doing that for other people, I know what that feels like to receive it. So to be able to also give it is just, it's a privilege. It's an absolute privilege. When my wife and I were reading, drowning, and there's that reconciliation with a couple, she came in and I was sniffling and she goes, wait, are you crying? I'm
I know with a thriller book, right? What is wrong with me? It's so sweet. Maybe this is sick on my part, but when people tell me that they cried, it makes me so happy. Yeah. Probably also because I'm a crier just in life in general. And when I write these books, I mean, we're talking boxes of Kleenex, got to boxes. So to know that somebody else is experiencing the pain, I love
Well, I think part of that too is, as I analyze it, you know, the world has gotten a little cynical and rough around the edges and you feel like you've seen and done everything. when, when we can get lost in something and then really truly relax our emotions to feel something, you've really accomplished something. I mean, you've really done it then.
In my opinion. I think there's something to that. think there's something to, people love thrillers. They love horror. They love being scared and being excited and on the edge of their seat. They love experiencing that in a safe way. It sounds counterintuitive that, you yeah, there is a lot of really scary stuff going on in the world and a lot of heartbreaking stuff going on in the world and in our own personal lives.
Why would we pick up a book to then be scared again and to be, you know, and I think there's something very human in that of sort of feeling those emotions and in a safe way and knowing that if it gets too much, close the book and put it down. And also it shows yourself that it's like, can, this is okay. I can get through this. can, and for me, the way I write thrillers is that, yeah, they're terrifying.
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (25:30.721)
you're also gonna be crying because that's again, going back to the question of what are we fighting for? And it's each other, it's our relationships, it's our family, it's our community, it's our friends, it's our children, our parents. That's what my focus is on what I write. You said something a second ago about when you've had a dream as long as I have and you've worked as hard as I have, it makes me think of the story that's now become pretty classic with
scribbling out your story on the back of napkins and sending out manuscripts to 40 or Shane Salerno was either 40, 41 maybe. 42. 42. And I thought for those who may not have heard this story yet, can you share that again? Cause that that's the, you know, all of us writers and I'm included in that just go, will anyone ever read this? Just query letter, just get me the query letter. And if you'll get halfway through that, I feel like I've done something.
Could I get a response from the query letter, much less I'll take your first five pages? So, sure. Yeah, I had the idea for my first novel, Falling, on a plane. I was a flight attendant. I flew for 10 years. My mom was a flight attendant. My sister was a flight attendant. We call it the family business. And the idea for Falling came to me on a plane as a result of a conversation that I had with a pilot. And I started writing by hand.
in the Forward Galley on Red Eyes while the passengers slept. And much of that book I wrote on a plane while my passengers were asleep. And I wrote and wrote and wrote and drafted and drafted and drafted. And when I finally felt like it was as good as I could get it, and I was ready to see if I could get representation, because you need an agent for anybody who doesn't know you, which I didn't. didn't know anybody. I didn't know anything.
I knew nothing. literally bought a book called The Essential Guides to Getting Your Book Published and I read it and I followed the directions. Seriously, I knew no one, I knew nothing. And so when I realized you need an agent, I started querying agents. Like you said, you write a query letter, one page pitch letter, basically saying like, hey, this is who I am, this is what my book's about, this is why you should represent me. And I started sending them off and the rejection started coming back.
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (27:51.693)
and kept coming back and kept coming back and 41 straight rejections. And then 42, I sent off to Shane Salerno of the Story Factory. And I wrote, I don't know if it was a note, I don't know, but it was the only one that I did this with, but I wrote a note that went with it. Cause I think by the time you're at 42, you just, you've got nothing to lose. Right, right. You know.
Pride is way behind you. So I wrote this note that I included with the manuscript that I'd mailed him. And it was like a very kind of very confident, bordering on cocky note of like, know, basically like a help me help you type thing. Boy, are you gonna want this type thing, which could not be further from the truth. We're 41 rejections in.
I'm lowest of low, right? So I'm just like, whatever, because you got nothing to lose. So I send it off and lo and behold, he calls back. Like he calls and wants to see the complete manuscript. So, and then here we are now three books in and yeah. And that book, know, even once Shane got on board, there was still another like five to seven or eight different drafts that we went through before that was even ready to take
Yeah, it's, it's, I draft a lot. I've never understood the readers or the writers that are like, write three, the first one to get it down. Then the second one to do it. And I'm like, yeah, I'm a big draft person. Now, can I ask you a technical question? Do you draft as you go? Do you draft in portions or do you get to the whole thing and go, okay, that was good. Check now go back and do a second draft and then.
So with falling, I was a pantser, right? You've got pantsers and plotters, people, if everybody doesn't know this, know, people, which again, I didn't, I learned this one the very hard way. If you're a pantser, you write by the seat of your pants. You just write as the spirit moves you and the story comes as it comes and it's beautiful and awesome and great. And it took me almost 40 drafts to get falling to where it needed to be by being a pantser. When I went to write drowning, I knew that I did not
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (30:11.629)
that luxury of time. So I very quickly became a plotter, which is someone who plots everything out ahead of time. And that's when I learned how to outline and I outline extensively. I do wild amounts of research and then I distill it down to what I need. I figure out the story and then I write very deep, mean, 50, 60 page outlines where I sit down and it's like chapter one, this is basically sort of, you know, my visualization of how this is gonna go. And then when I sit down to write,
pull that outline out and I sort of reread it and then kind of visualize it and see the movie playing in my mind and then I write it out. wow. Wow. Yeah. So when I go to write, it's pretty hammered out because this types of stories I write are really lots of moving parts, lots of moving parts and lots of interlocking pieces. What are those things where?
Like Mouse Trap, like the game Mouse Trap. yeah. It's a, I forget what it's called. Anyway, if I don't plot, I run into problems because it's like a house of cards. Got it. So I have to know what's going on in these massive plot heavy stories with lots of moving pieces. Well plus, here's something, by the way, I always start my notes usually in the back spare pages and then I had this one note that I wanted to make sure I hit.
And I had to highlight it and mark it because I, for some reason, I loved this thing. And I'm going to tell you exactly why. And you're being a heart person, you're going to dig this. So Joss loved this character, knew exactly who she was. Top to bottom, inside out, she knew what she was all about. She knew what she was made of, what she wanted, where to go. Ethan was the only man she'd ever dated who knew himself in the same way. And that's what had been missing.
So I circled it and I wrote TT and Me. So that's my wife. I was one of these confirmed bachelors. This is a private sharing moment, girls. So just pull the chair up. So I was a confirmed bachelor forever. I'm like, nah, I'm good. And then out of nowhere, and I'll tell you this story one day, cause you're gonna love it. Jonathan, you hear that? Jonathan is my producer. and he was asking me, tell me the story about you and Tammy, which I'm not gonna share now cause
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (32:40.245)
just a long story. Here's my point. This is how I felt about Tammy and about who I was. I'm like, I'm not, this, I know who I am. I know what I want and you don't fit. And so when she finally finds the fit, it just perfectly fit. That was a really long story. Thank you for bearing with me. But it, but again, it hit my heart and that's what I loved about it. And I go, dad, come on, that girl knows how
get right into the meat and potatoes of it. You know what's so funny about that is that was one of the last drafts, that was an insert at one of the last drafts when I realized that I needed a little bit more of Joss as a person. Because you felt like a character more. Yeah, it's just with these books that are, my books are very plot heavy. There's a lot going on on the plot.
And I realized in some of the later drafts that it was like, she needs to be beefed up a little bit. Like there needs to be a little bit more of her as a character. And I was really investigating her relationship with Ethan. And that was one of the last things that went in and it almost didn't make the cut. I really almost considered it. was like, am I, is this too? I was so close to cutting that entire section. I'm so, that's so fun.
You just, never know. You just, never know what's going to speak to, to which reader. And this is the one thing that jumped out at me. I love that. Yeah. The reason I picked this up with, cause you were talking about outline and analysis. Folks, if you want to know a little crash course masterclass, get this book. can pre -order it now, by the way. So countdown, I love this, you know, on page, fill it
Page 13, chapter one, countdown to zero hours, 16 hours and 38 minutes. I'm instantly going, geez, ha, geez, this is gonna be a, and every chapter counts down. Now a lot of times you don't have the countdown going. You won't get that in a book, but you know it's happening. Here, you know it's happening, it's right there in front of your face. Jerry's on to him. So anyway, I make that point because that's one of the things I love about
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (34:57.389)
Because you're always reminding me, tick -tock, tick -tock, tick -tock. And that's, it's twofold, right? It's exactly what you're saying, just that reminder of like, clock is ticking, clock is ticking. Just that looming doomsday clock, just in the back of your mind, the 24 o 'clock just going, you know, the whole time. It's that, but I also want to, my stories are lots of characters and lots
plot, lots going on. The easier I can make it on the reader to keep things straight, the better reading experience they're to have. all about thinking as a reader, what is my experience of reading this story, of hearing this story? And I said earlier, it is the privilege of your time. There are a million books you could be many movies you could be watching.
you could be out with friends, you could be doing things and you are choosing to spend your time with my work. I do not take that privilege and that responsibility lightly. And to me, I'm constantly thinking, what is this experience like for them? And that clock, which yes, is the doomsday over and over again, but I like doing things like that to try to just not make it a challenge and make it effortless to read the book. I want this to be just
effortless story. And if I can help remind them of where we are in time and space and what's happening just with a little thing like that, it to me makes it a more enjoyable reading experience. I'm so glad you said that because there would be some people, I know a few people that go, you're spoon feeding. I'm like, what do mean spoon feeding? There's so much going on. Thank goodness my flight attendant, if I may,
is giving me instructions on what to do as I'm going through the plane, metaphorically, and keeping me on point so that I know where I am in the story. So I love the fact that you're doing that and I go, okay, I never do this. Okay, now where was I? What was happening over here? Because what's the number one thing we hate? You go to a movie and you get taken out of the story. What are you doing? You're checking your clock. You wanna go to the bathroom?
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (37:17.099)
That's all, you said it perfectly right there, taken out of the story. And everything that I try to do is so that there's never a moment where the reader is taken out of the story. I want you in this universe and I want it to be as effortless as sitting in a theater watching something play out in front of you. That's how I want it. And the way I try to write is so that, and the reason why books are so magical, I love books, I love film, I love them both,
Books are magical because you participate in it, right? You paint the picture. You are an active participant in this story, whereas in a movie, you just sit and watch. And I kind of love playing with sort of bridging in between the two and making it so clear that it feels like you're just watching it play out in front of you when really you're actually participating and drafting and painting this whole picture for yourself. It reminds me of that phrase that you hear people say all the time.
which did you like better, the book or the movie? I like the book better. And I always say, do you know why you like the book better? And they go, why? I go, because you were the director of that film. You called the shots, you filled in the blanks, you painted the scenery. And they always go, yeah. You get to create it, you get to expand it or shrink it however you want. Yeah.
Where versus spoon beating, yeah. Yeah, they're both fabulous mediums. And when I see an adaptation of something, I try to think of them like separately, just as two separate entities. And maybe one speaks more to you, but they both have different ways of being fabulous. Yeah. All right, we're gonna take a short break. And when we come back, we're gonna share, TJ, we're gonna share how TJ holds
a position that very few have ever held, whether you knew that or not, and how she's given one of the biggest opportunities a writer could ever have. Ooh, you know you wanna stick around for that. We'll be right back. TJ Newman, it's Worst Case Scenario right here on The Thriller Zone. Stay with
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (39:30.741)
So about now, everybody's wondering TJ, how they can get a copy of Worst Case Scenario. Worst Case Scenario is out on August 13th, but you can pre -order it now pretty much anywhere that books are sold. So pre -order now. God, it's so cool to sit down and face to face with you. Likewise. Bam. All right. Now, a couple things.
I always put notes in the back of the book. These are my very first organic notes before I even start making my fancy notes. Can I just tell you that as a writer who, my books like that look like that, and then obviously all my drafts look like that, and the advanced copies are just covered and ready to see somebody else doing that to my book, just makes me happy. It's like a lived experience in the book. I love it. Yes. Well, thank
Now my mom would roll over in a grave right now because she wouldn't bend a, she would not do, she would not do this. Yep. And I'm like, ma, tell me where I am. Plus I get all these notes and then if I would do this, she would be like, mercy. People are precious about their books. I personally love, you know,
traveled a lot, obviously, as a flight attendant, and I would always have a book with me, because I'm a tangible book. I can't do the e -reader thing. For me, I need the book. And it's like, love when I take a book off the bookshelf and sand falls out of it. And I remember, yeah, I read that on the beach in Thailand. You know what I mean? I love that lived experience when you see, this one is all water stained because that cup of coffee poured all over it. I love it. It's a visceral touch. When things hit
I don't know what this is. can remember exactly where they are on the page. I remember where it is position wise, whether it's left or right, bottom. Would you do me a favor, Martin, grabbing my phone because there's one thing I forgot to do and I was gonna come back from the break with this. Thank you, buddy. You need to play along with me. If you would, it's a good thing, don't worry. No one's gonna get hurt. I want you to push play.
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (41:43.735)
Hi TJ, Tammy Temple here. I'm sorry I'm not able to join you and David in LA today for the filming of the Thriller Zone podcast. I was hoping I could be there, meet you, participate in the fun with the gang, but ended up having a change in my work schedule. I just wanted to share my appreciation for falling, for drowning, and now I'm really looking forward to reading your next book that's about to launch.
Worst case scenario, best of luck with the podcast. Hope you have a great time with David and the gang and good luck on the launch of worst case scenario. We're rooting for you. Hi, hi, Tammy rain check for next time. that's so sweet. Thank you. That is great. She just said, cause we, this morning I told the guys, they, said, you know, part of the bonus of you being here today was the fact
Cami was coming. They were writing me something fierce. was, I was looking forward to meeting her too. And so this morning at seven o 'clock, she goes, a call from the boss. Can't make it. She goes, can I send her a note? I'm like, of course you can. She'd love that. Yes, I did love that. anyway. All right. One thing I would need to dimension that I usually mentioned out of the gate that, and I've already with my enthusiasm probably shared similarly.
that this book has everything you want in a thriller. And I made sure I wrote it down in case my feeble mind would forget it. Everything you want in a page turning thriller, action, explosions, tension, the proverbial ticking clock, not only the storyline, but actual chapter titles, but also has tons of humanity, relationships, pathos,
and most importantly, heart, something I always look for in a writer.
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (43:46.861)
I could just drop the mic right there. I'll take it. Thank you. Thank you. Now I said before the break that there was one thing that blows my mind is not only did you debut with the number two position, New York Times bestseller back in 21 and only five books. This is the part that blew my mind. Only five books have made the list without being on the big list. Like I'm talking about Oprah, Reese Witherspoon, GMA, et cetera.
Help my listeners fully comprehend what that means exactly and why that is so rare. That's a stat, that's maybe one of the stats I'm most proud of was that I made the list as a debut author. Think of all the debuts that come out during a calendar year, right? How many books came out by debut offers in the year 2021 and of all of those debut books.
only five authors, me and four other people, only five of us hit the New York Times Best Seller list, which is the metric that everyone sort of uses without the assistance of a celebrity book club endorsement or recent Oprah or something like that. I've already said that going into this venture, I didn't know anything.
Lifelong reader, lifelong writer. I was also a bookseller at Changing Ants bookstore in Phoenix. So I'd had different angles of this world. I'd never written and published a book though. And so sort of the inside baseball of sales and lists and all this stuff was completely new to me. And I am so proud because it was so hard. And that's, it's just, there's so much in the world,
Yeah. I mentioned it earlier. You know, that's why I say it's the privilege of a reader's time because there's so much to see and do in this world and to distract us and to, to get people's attention with everything that's happened in the last, you know, my book came out at the tail end of the pandemic, you know, when we were still in the pandemic, there has been so much going on to steal all of our attention that to cut through the noise for an author is really, really difficult to
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (46:02.983)
really difficult to do. I'm speaking for, you know, there's all of us who are writing out there and publishing out there. It's a little wild, west right now trying to get people's attention. That is one of the biggest conundrums, I think, going on right now, because you've got the big screens, the medium screens, and the tiny screens that we carry
You've got the TikToks and the Instagrams and the Facebooks and the Twitters and everything is just barking and nipping at your heels for attention. I'm amazed at, well, who knows better than you? Walk through an airport. What's the percentage of people that are just looking around enjoying the day and how many are doing this? So point being, with that kind of competition, I talked to a lot of my writer friends and they're just, they're kind
been out of shape because the competition's so fierce and all I can ever come back with and help me out here TJ, write the best dang book you can and just shout it from the mountaintops until somebody says yes. mean. I mean, that's all you can do. Right. You know, is, is, and, and that's all I try to focus on. I try to focus when I'm writing and when I'm putting a book
Lists are great, obviously, and all of those things are wonderful, but what I can control is the story that I write. All I can do is write a story the best way that I know how. And that is what I do every time is work as hard as I can to put out the story that is the best way that I know how to tell
There's distractions everywhere. And it's not just for writers. It's every, we, everyone is trying to grab our attention. That's just what the world is right now. And so the only thing that I can do is make something so that you can't not look. Yeah. Can't not look. That's how you can do is just try to make the best that you can do. There's something when I was taking the drive up this morning, I was thinking about you, as I mentioned earlier in the show and about your family. And I would love to be a fly on the wall.
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (48:17.483)
in the dining room table around dinner time, about the time this wave came crashing in the Newman household, what has the family, what kind of reactions, what kind of feelings have they brought to the table? I think we're all stunned. I think the surreal world still applies, word applies to them as well. I mean, none of us are in, we had no frame of reference for this. So this was all, just.
and it's just been nothing but a blessing. think it's just, everything is just overwhelmingly exciting, just of what's happened. And it's, it has been such an honor to know that I've made my parents proud. Yeah. That seeing the pride that they have when they tell their friends or their family or tell someone, you know,
I wrote and this happened and all of this, like seeing their pride and knowing that I've made them proud is, it's everything. Yeah. And you did it at such a young age too, when you think about it. I mean, you're just a kid. Yeah, we're all, yeah. It's, yeah. Yeah, I can't imagine how proud they are. That is so sweet. Well, I was wondering about that. Now, one of the things that you, I mentioned about being presented one of the biggest opportunities ever and meaning gift and,
Especially for somebody who like me who loves to dabble in screenplay writing. One of the coolest things I can think of is somebody said, okay, TJ, you got New York Times bestseller. Check. What else would you like? Well, could I adapt one of my books into a screenplay and perhaps help make it on the screen? Bingo. Yeah, I'm adapting Falling and it is...
A wild ride, an absolute education that really changed the way that I write fiction, that I write novels. It really dramatically changed also the way I write novels. Well, first of all, I was gonna say you're in great hands. know Shane doesn't like, Salerno of Story Factory doesn't like to talk about himself much, but he, probably one of the best screenplay writers out there in the world today. So you're in great hands.
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (50:40.365)
Secondly, what is that process like? And to your point, how has it made you better at this form by doing that form? So screenwriting is all about compression, right? I've got a story that took me 300 pages to tell. A script is 100 pages. How do I tell the same story, but only in 100 pages? So it's the art of compression. It's the art
an economy of words. And when you're doing that, you're really just ruthlessly looking at every scene, every character, every line, everything and going, what is necessary? What is the story? What can go? And it's really wild when you start looking, when you look at something and you think that's as lean as it can get. I took all the fat off the bone there, there's nothing left to go. And then you go, well, hold on. And then you keep going and you're
yeah, I guess that all could go away. And it forces you, the way that it's changed the way I write novels is you have to be so methodical and so understanding of what a character is doing in a scene, in a screenplay and showing it that you just don't have the luxury of, that you have in a book of describing something and, you know, painting the picture and doing this. is just the bare bones.
And when you're writing a book, having that laser focus and knowing it just makes scenes that much more clear. What are the stakes? What are these characters actually talking about? What are these characters actually trying to achieve? What is that emotion? Because also in a screenplay, you don't have the benefit that you have in a book of the character's interior. Which is what we were talking about earlier with books versus movies is when you read a book also, you know what the character's thinking because they're telling you.
So you're inside their interior feeling what they're feeling, thinking what they're thinking, going through that with them. You're not in a screenplay. It's a visual medium. It's only what you can see. So you don't have that luxury of saying the character was thinking this. No, have to, well, what does that look like? What does that manifest as on the screen? How does that character show that he's scared or he's heartbroken or whatever that is?
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (53:04.735)
And you can't give that in direction because then it would fatten that script out again. But isn't this kind of where you lean on the actors to know how to internalize those feelings and display it rather than? Sure. It's really kind of an incredible, a script is an incredible document too if you think of it as like a map. It's a map that is interpreted by the actor who then portrays it onto the screen. It's interpreted by the director.
who reads it and says, okay, and this is what it's actually gonna look like. And then they figure out how to actually make that come to life. But you have to give them all of that. It has to be there for them to interpret and figure out. It's like a map. It's like a blueprint and a map for someone else to then interpret and turn into something else. It's like a architect's blueprint so then make the house.
And if it's not on there, they're not going to know how to do it once it gets there. What do you suppose would be the biggest thing or two, so I don't give you too much pressure, biggest thing you've taken away sitting with Shane? Because his expertise is, I'm thinking of James Cameron, Avatar scripts, that guy has an ability to just
squeeze it down. What's one thing that you walked away going, wow, took me to school? One thing that's a literal impossible question to answer. I've had the privilege. We've worked together now for, gosh, four years, I guess it is. And we talk every day on the phone and I swear I take notes every day. It's I'm learning something new about publishing industry, the film industry, about storytelling, about craft, about... Because he's such a unique character, right?
He's got experience as a creative. He's a writer. He's a New York Times bestselling author himself. He's also a screenwriter. He's also an agent. He also makes deals. He knows the business side of things. He's got a really interesting sort of big scale and small scale view of the entire creative process. He's a producer. mean, he's, he's, he's done a lot. He's worn a lot of different hats and sort of
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (55:28.055)
grand picture understanding of how all the pieces move together is really, really fascinating. Cause he'll say something and I won't understand it I won't understand what's going on. And then something will happen. then it's, now I get why that happened. It's like, there's that's, that's to me, his, his superpower is sort of this, this understanding of the, the bigger mechanism.
And you know, I don't know him nearly as well as you do. I've had a few phone conversations. I highly respect him. But one thing that's interesting is he's a hard guy on top of this kingmaker. I won't spend too much time on that, but it's, don't find that guy who really understands the heart of something and is sensitive and emotional and still can be a ball breaker, you know, making deals.
He's making deals, but he is the heart and soul of an artist and that is his core as a person and as an artist, is heart, he's all heart. And in all of my books, a lot of the emotional center that is in them has been helped by him saying, we need more of this or less of that, narrow the focus and here, widen it there. And that sort of understanding of story and of relationships
Again, it makes him very unique in that way. We love you, Shane. I want to go back to something, back to the book about, you know, we can talk about the explosions and the crashes and the fierceness and the bravery, besides entertainment, the popcorn entertainment aspect. What's something you really hope readers will take away from Worst Case Scenario? Kind of at its core. How fast things can turn on a dime.
Sort of when I've been pitching this story to people one of the taglines I've been using as a starter just like any other day and most of these massive, you know events come that way. There's no warning. They just happen and I think that Looking at your own life and thinking could today could be that day we be sitting here right now and something could happen, you know How are you living your life? How are you spending your time? What what is what is that when you meet that
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (57:50.413)
What does that look like for you in your life? I don't know about you, but I only got 24 hours in a single day. So if we find someone who has more, I'd love to start a conversation. I want some of that action. Yeah, I'll take it too. If you could go back to your 10 -year -old self, one of my favorite little silly questions, knowing what you know today, what would you say to young Tori? Keep moving towards whatever you want to move towards. My life, when I look back on it,
did not make sense. was here, was there, it was all over. was this, the one continuity though is that I was always authentically true to moving towards what felt like what I wanted to move towards and what was interesting to me. There's things, you know, that I went to college for musical theater. I pursued theater in New York for a while. Then I became a flight attendant. I've held every odd job under the sun. None of these things were some grand plan design.
from when I was sitting in the theater watching Jurassic Park in 1993 when it came out and realizing that my entire life is like expanding in real time as I'm understanding what kind of stories there are out there to be told. That was not a straight line, not by any means. But I always pursued what felt authentic and real and interesting to me.
Like I said, these types of movies, these types of stories, it's what I loved, it's what I did. It's not what I deliberately set out to do. So I would tell myself, just keep doing the things that feel like you, that feel like that's what you need to be digging deeper into. It doesn't have to make sense. It doesn't have to do any of this. You'll find your way, you'll figure it out, no matter what that is, but just keep digging into those things that feel.
give you a spark that give you something that other things don't. I love that. Yeah. The things that make your heart beat. Yeah. And isn't it interesting if you're into metaphysics and such and you're sitting there at that year watching Jurassic Park and all these years later, you're working with the guy who helped bring about the new incarnation of Michael Crichton's original Jurassic Park to the eruption with James Patterson. mean,
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:00:13.853)
My surreal. Yeah. Surreal. It will never not be surreal. All I know is that when I left that theater, I will never forget standing in the lobby after the movie and looking at my hand and my hand just doing this and just like shaking, cause I was so terrified. I was so terrified. And I just didn't know that stories could be, you know, kind of like that big and that spectacular. How did I know that that moment would turn into this?
Boy, bet we could go down a metaphysical trail, but I'll say that for another time. there's two people I want to acknowledge. First of all, my niece, Katie, just got her wings and she's flying with American airlines. Like literally weeks ago. AV fam congratulations. I mean, she's one of those gals, love you, Katie, will, has been trying to figure out what she wanted to do her life.
started in theater, this, that, and the other, job hunting, jumping. And she discovered flight attendant, she could not be happier if she tried. She loves it. I love it. That makes me so, it's a great, great job. I've never seen her happier. Second one, wanna say a shout out to my nephew, 13 year old Sawyer, who lives in Mesa, Mesa, Phoenix area.
So I want to go along the same path. I'm not, this isn't just old home week. I'm trying to take away from you. It's this, he is a creative kid too. And he's trying to find his way, a super creative, super funny, and has challenges of every 13 year old kid. And I'd love to know he's working hard to expand his creative side. What kind of advice would you give 13 year old Sawyer? Read and watch everything.
Don't limit yourself to what people say you should read or watch. And if you don't like something that people say you should like, ignore it. Like what you like. Move towards what you're interested in. But try everything. I read all across the board. I don't read only thrillers. I try to read and watch.
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:02:36.799)
as much as I possibly can because everything has something that will interest you and will teach you something. There's a lot, I read so much nonfiction, so much nonfiction that is really instrumental to understand. When I wrote Drowning, most of what helped me write that book were all nonfiction books. And it's how I wrangled that story into something that cohesively made sense was trying to write it from that voice.
of something of like, because if I went to a land of fiction, it just became sensational all of a sudden and was just too much. I had to pare it down back to more like a almost just reporting of what was going on. And it helped me get it there. So if I wasn't reading a bunch of non -fiction to help have that voice and tone in my head, then that book I think would have turned out totally different.
So you never know where your inspiration and where your lessons are gonna come from. So read and watch everything.
Great advice. And speaking of education and research and doing your homework, I found out recently that you received a doctorate from your alma mater, Illinois Westland. What was that experience like? And to have a doctorate for crying out loud. Dr. Newman. Matter of fact, let's take a look at this. It's one thing to have accomplished something incredible that I'm very proud of and very excited about. But to be able
tie it back to the roots of where it all started is really nostalgic and kind of surreal. A 2006 music theater graduate of Illinois Wesleyan University and a flight attendant turned author who published two novels that quickly became New York Times bestsellers. The Board of Trustees salutes you and confers upon you the degree of Doctor of Humane Letters.
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:04:37.063)
It was one of the best weekends I've had in a really long time. It was just, got to go back to my alma mater, speak, the commencement speech at graduation to graduating class, which feels so weird because it felt like I should be out there, not up here. Like, wasn't I just out there, you know, in cap and gown like five minutes ago? That's how it felt like. It was such an honor. went to a, when I was in university, it's
It's a small liberal arts college about two hours south of Chicago. And it was just the perfect fit for me. And I had an entire community of people that just supported me and supported me in what I was interested in. My seniors honor project was on furniture restoration and upholstery. And when I came to my mentor, my professor and said, this is what I want to study, I was like, okay.
but yes, we'll make this happen and we'll do it. And they supported me. And when I had my falling book event in Chicago, he was there. A lot of friends from college were there. It everybody came out. It's again, sort of like how I said, making my parents proud has given me such, it's been so gratifying. Same with my college, making them proud and them saying, we've supported you even when you weren't this and now you are and we're proud. It's been, yeah.
Yeah, I know you're gonna get tired of using the word surreal, but when you find a word that really does sum up everything the best, you gotta just stick with it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. I always wrap the show with that question. I asked you this in Falling and then Drowning, and I gotta ask it again, again for the listeners and viewers who are first time with TJ
best writing advice. And you've dabbled in it, you've kind of sprinkled some similar advice throughout, but I know you well enough now, and having read all your work, that you have a kick -ass flavor of best writing advice. So for my up and coming writers, what would it be? I don't know. I don't remember what I told you the first two times. I don't either, it doesn't matter. but the thing that comes to my mind is keep going with it. And that you...
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:06:55.307)
I've accepted now in the third book that like I'm a heavy editor and I'm just going to edit and edit and edit and edit. And it's going to be a lot of work and it's going to, you're gonna be sick of it by the time that it's done, but the work's done when the work's done right. And it takes probably more effort to get it there than you're anticipating. And that's okay. And that is okay. And I would just not
until it's right. I would be remiss if I did not ask because we're talking about you and your writing and your screenplay writing and your novel writing. And I know there's another book out there somewhere percolating, not even going to bother you with that because we're talking about worst case scenario. So we want to make sure we it's all about this love. But what do you do in your downtime? I know you love yourself some baseball. I've watched all your baseball, you're throwing your bat and I mean those diamond backs.
or one of your first loves. mean, what are you doing in your downtime when you're just recharging TJ? You hit it, it's baseball. It's baseball books and movies and family and friends. That's a ball game for me right there. That's what I spend my time doing. And hiking, I haven't, it's so funny when Shane and I first started working together, I was on a five day, when
connected to ask for the complete manuscript. was getting ready to go on a five day hiking trip in Northern Arizona where I would be like no cell service, backpacking for five days, like completely out of touch. So we connected right before I did that. If you wanna know real anxiety, give the only agent who's shown any interest in your manuscript, your manuscript and
go away from email and phone for a week and not have any clue as to what he's thinking about it. That is, that's stressful. That's like in the most beautiful, pristine nature ever. And I'm like, yeah, great. Wonder what he's thinking. Does he like that section? It was so panic inducing. So then came back from that and the way that my scheduling worked out was then had one day in between then flew to Hawaii and did another week
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:09:19.617)
being completely without cell phone and backpacking through Hawaii. And it was so funny, because in between then, the night before we left, he called me when I'm in Hawaii. And he calls me and I pick up the phone and he's like, I'm in, let's do this. The manuscript's great, we got work to do, but this is, I'm in, let's make this happen. Wow. So that hike, at least I knew that it was...
The first hike was like, do I have an agent? The second hike was, I have an agent. And now the work starts. But I'll never forget the reason I share that is he's telling me, was like, and at that point I'm like, hey, we leave tomorrow. If there's something I need to do like now, I can just bail on this trip and I can just come home if we need to like get to work now. And he's like, no, no, no, just go, enjoy your trip, have fun. Don't fall off a cliff, have a good time. But just know when you get back, there's gonna be a little less hiking.
and a little more writing. And was like, absolutely. And he was completely right. And I haven't taken a backpacking trip like that since, but I think I'm gonna have to get back out there soon. Yeah. Yeah. This has been so much fun. Yeah, it has. Thank you so much for having me on. This is just really wonderful to do this in person. Absolutely. And folks, if you'd like to learn more, go to TJNewmanAuthor .com. Worst case scenario drops in just days.
Tuesday, August 13th be exact. And depending upon when this show airs, you may wanna consider pre -ordering like right now. Right now. I'm thinking. Available for pre -order anywhere books are sold. I think pre -order is a good thing because I'm a big fan of that because I like to put it in the queue, not worry about it, knowing that the minute it releases, it's Amazon for me. It's gonna be there at maybe the end of the day, if not the next day.
It's like buying a Christmas gift for yourself. I've had it where I've pre -ordered things and then forgot they were coming out. then, know, changing hands will call me and be like, your book's ready for pickup. And I'll be like, what book? that book, yay. And then it's like, I got myself a gift. How fun. Yeah. Yeah. So the next time we see you, we'll have more stuff to talk about. Always. Thank you again, TJ. Thank you. How sweet was that with Tammy?
The Thriller Zone with David Temple (01:11:36.093)
So sweet, and I'm so sad that she couldn't be here. I'm going to have a conversation with her boss when I get back. Well, folks, that is it. The official end of season six. Season seven is right around the corner. But until then, this guy is going to take a little break, take a few days off. But please join me when I come on back around right after Labor Day as we launch season seven. And this could potentially be the best season yet.
You folks take care. I'm David Temple, your host. I'll see you next time for another edition of the Thriller Zone.