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The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
I would like to invite you to
take a moment, a moment in this
day, your day, to imagine an
experience that's indescribable.
This experience, having words
limited, expression of the cognitive
challenging, and yet the embodiment
of this experience is deeply known.
Taking a moment to
breathe in and exhale out.
Allowing this embodied experience
in this moment, in your
imagery, to not need words.
Being gentle and allowing the embodiment
of this breath this experience, To
simply be witnessed, feeling your body
and allowing yourself to be present.
Once again, breathing in and breathing
out, watching the thoughts and
removing the need to formally identify.
Once again, simply witnessing the
thoughts, feeling into the body,
and now inviting in the emotional heart.
Simply turning now to the expression
of the heart, of the emotions.
And once again, recognizing
the need and desire we all have
to label and assign a meaning.
In this moment, encouraging you and
inviting you to simply witness your heart,
witness your emotions, and recognize
how it interconnects with your body.
Breathing in and breathing out,
allowing yourself to center,
to root into yourself.
This internal expression,
breathing in and breathing out,
finding the comfort and finding
the hope and peace and not
identifying, not labeling and
not needing to assign a meaning.
Taking one final breath in
and one final breath out,
centering your body and opening
your eyes when you feel called.
Hi, it's Ryan.
Welcome psychedelic psychologist, where
I invite my guests to share stories
about their psychedelic experiences.
We cover a variety of topics
from overcoming addiction and
severe depression to finding
wholeness and spiritual emergence.
Today I'm honored super excited
and very grounded to talk to Tim.
Tim, welcome.
Thank you.
How are you coming in today?
I'm, I'm coming in, I'm feeling good.
I'm, a little bit a little bit
buzzing slash wired, just wanting
excited about the talk today.
Also hoping that I can.
Articulate kind of the mystery
of some of these experiences.
I really appreciate what you're saying,
because it's a way that we have to kind
of entrench in, right, to articulate
words to something so profound.
So the buzzing isn't because we
were talking beforehand about
our love affair for coffee.
Yeah, it could be.
So I want to ask a question because I know
you just recently had a big experience.
How does one kind of hold loosely the
need to articulate And how do you hold it
with the sense of being able to accept it
and feel it versus just put words to it?
Well, it's, I think it's a
challenge because in the session,
everything is crystal clear.
At least it has been for me.
And when you're done and you're
back in regular life and , maybe the
doubts of regular life or just the
requirements of regular life, Those
things that were so obvious during
the session maybe aren't as obvious.
And so but you sort of want to still
have them there and, and provide
meaning to you outside of the session.
And I guess I, the approach
that I take is two things.
One, I sort of have a trust that there
is a subconscious benefit that When
I'm not in the session that the things
that I learned in the session are still
benefiting me in a subconscious way.
And then the other thing is just, I know
what I thought during that time, both
remembering it and having written it down.
And so.
Even if it isn't as obvious or crystal
clear now, it's still useful to
think back upon that idea and say,
Hey, this is something that I know,
or, and I can still apply it now,
even though I'm in regular life now.
I really appreciate that because this
idea of thinking it has to be done perfect
or as crystal clear as the experience
led on to believe is, it sounds as if.
Hearing you, you're a lot
more compassionate to the
expression of applying it.
Tell me a little bit about your
relationship, what brings you back.
You and I have been working together
for some time now, a handful of years,
and I'd love to know what continues
to bring you back, and how do you
identify when you know it's time
to come back to a big experience?
Well, what draws me to it is, I
don't, it's just such a, it's such
a gift, I think, to yourself to
have this time out to concentrate
on yourself and to be in this.
World or this, this mental world
where everything in that might hold
you back in regular life is gone.
And the clarity of ideas are just there.
And it kinda, it makes me
realize that the things are,
that those ideas are there even.
Even when I'm not in a session but
the session really really is just
a wonderful experience of clarity
And then let's see second question.
What was that again?
Yeah, the second question is What
do you identify and how do you
identify it's time to come back?
Oh, yes
I think I, after an experience, I'm sort
of, sort of ready to do another one.
Like I sometimes wonder what would it
be like to do them closer together?
Cause I just, it's a great place to be.
For me, I've sort of
settled in on this yearly.
And during that year, it's just
something that I think about and
tend to be looking forward to.
I have thought like, what would it be
like if you did it every quarter, you
know, where they were closer together?
But right now the, the, your
cadence has been working.
The sense of integration for you.
Do you get like a fire
under you immediately after?
So right now, knowing that it's
been a handful of weeks, what,
what level of intensity does the
inter integration take on for you?
What level of it being forefront
in your mind is it at this moment?
It's still it's still kind
of in an always there.
State where I'm thinking back to some
of the bullet points, so to speak, from
the session and and reflecting on them.
A lot of it is,
a lot of the reflection is just
the remembering and that and
reminding myself that I can apply,
apply these to, to regular life.
So I, I'm in that state where
it's just, it's just there, yeah,
I do know, and I respect it.
Do you get the sense that your body
takes on a different form after?
I know we've been talking
about the cognitive processing
and the vernacular and words.
Do you realize, and since you said
subconsciously, does your body also
take on a different cellular imprint?
I guess.
I guess I haven't noticed that except
for the fact that lately tried to
stop and close my eyes and feel how
my body is feeling and and maybe
that is the, maybe the idea to do
that is is the result of that And
this is kind of an answer to my
question that you might ask later on
is how am I being gentle to myself?
And that's kind of the, that's kind
of the, the thing I'm doing right now.
Cause when you do, you obviously can
feel your body when it has a obvious
pain, but I've just been finding
it useful to close my eyes and feel
around the body because there's
little things going on that you will.
Normally don't notice both
feelings and sensations.
Right, right.
Well, and slowing down, right?
In this frenetic world that we live.
Yes, yes, yes.
Yeah, that hits you quite well.
What does it mean to slow down?
It's, when I do, I recognize its value.
Because
I think for a lot of us, including me,
normal life, Can go fast, and and just
slowing down is, is always important.
And I think it's sort of a constant
cycle of remembering to do it and then,
and then maybe for a while forgetting
to do it, and then coming back to it.
But it's, yeah, slowing down
is super instructive for me.
Yeah, and I really appreciate what
you just said about it slowing down
to the point where we forget to slow
down is one of the ways I know for
myself I need to come back to the
medicine is when I know I'm going too
fast or unable to even pause to close
my eyes or get lost in the rat race.
That's one of the first signs that I'm
like, okay, this might be a good idea
to check my integration skills or.
Get back into a session or experience.
Yeah.
Can we pause and pivot to your experience?
Can we unpack and talk a little
bit about your recent experience?
Yeah, for sure.
What would you say are some of those
bullet points and what are you chewing on?
Well, this is my third experience and
This time around, it was the, it was a
lot of ideas on empowerment to myself.
And I think that had to do with
the mindset I came in with.
It was sort of centered on myself and
yeah, just my sense of
empowerment in the world, I guess.
And so those,
those ideas definitely came up.
I mean, the, the, the bullet points.
One that sort of sounds silly now,
but I still think it's instructive
was this concept of like the kingdom,
the kingdom of me, and just thinking
of me as, having power, you know, and
maybe in, in, in everyday life, that
feeling isn't, isn't always there.
And that's instructive to think
back upon in real life, just be
like, That was a good, that was a
an interesting way to
think about yourself.
Well, there's so many times where we're,
you know, we're assuming that if we think
about yourself, it's a, it's a variation
of narcissism, but what I'm hearing in
you and what you've talked about and
what I know to be true is to take care of
yourself means to empower yourself, right?
And we don't often give that chance
or grace to say, Oh, I'm taking
care of myself in so that it feels
empowering, yeah, yeah, I agree.
The other thing the other thing that
was interesting that was unexpected is
this idea of things that bother me about
myself, let's say, and maybe we all do
like, Oh, I wish I could do this better.
I wish this didn't
happen or what have you.
And one of the ideas
in my session was that.
Thinking about that some of those
things were maybe for a reason and that
the, I, this idea that sounds really
obvious during the session, but maybe
is, doesn't sound as obvious now
as just that, you know, there were
reasons why you were quote unquote
held back, you know, and to make sense
of your frustrations in that way.
And it's helpful because whether,
whether it's a hundred
percent true or not, it's.
It's a, it's a different it's,
it's a different way to, to look
at things and, and you know,
maybe, maybe there were benefits to
being held back in a certain way.
And maybe, maybe now that now is the
time, let's say, and I appreciate
that during the session, I was
like, Oh, this is so obvious.
And awesome.
And I think I even told my guide
that everything makes sense now.
And it did in that moment.
And it, you know, outside of it, it does,
doesn't make 100 percent sense, but it's
still I can still apply it when I stop.
Think about it.
Well, and what you're speaking to me
about and why I appreciate working
with you is your desire to bridge that
complete clarity within the session
and kind of where it becomes a need
to get clarity through integration
or through skills or what I'm hearing
you say, allowing and accepting
our limitations and finding peace.
So if it's something that maybe where
we, where we, For example, me trying
to learn Spanish, I'm like, Oh, I,
I'm limited by that, but that doesn't
mean I'm negative towards myself.
I'm just understanding how far I can, or,
you know, you and I's relationship with
the guitar is we can only take it so far.
And if that doesn't mean we're
bastardizing ourselves or,
shaming ourselves, but rather
understanding our limitations.
I think that's a really good way
to put it that I haven't a way I
haven't thought of it yet is to
understand limitations and that
instead of, instead of just getting
frustrated by them, see them
and take them for what they are.
And also realize that on the other
side of the coin is the opposite of
limitations, which are the things that,
that you excel at or come naturally.
So I like, I like.
Viewing it that way.
Well, and I appreciate it just to
bounce back and volley to you is
then the other side of the coin
being, we often forget what we're
very fluid in or that we excel in.
And because we're so over consumed
by where our weaknesses are or
our limitations that we don't
shine light on something that.
And I think when we look at ourselves
speaking of the kingdom of me that
gives us a space to go Oh, wow, I am
empowered in many different sectors
of my life Mm hmm, and I believe
psilocybin experiences aren't just
manifested to say what We're bad at
or what but rather Holistic of Mm-Hmm.
inventorying who we are and what we
can get better at, but not bastardize
again or shame ourselves for it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This is, this is, this is good.
I, we're doing integration right now.
How's it feel?
What's coming up in your body?
Feels well.
I just, I'm excited about the little
energy, but I'm just excited about
the idea of limitations and accepting
them and understanding them versus.
Frustration or shame.
I think that's a really good way to to
look at it because the reality is we're
all good good at some things and maybe
not at other things and Let's as a whole
Think about that in a positive Right.
So, right.
Thank you.
Thank you for saying that.
Tell me a little bit more.
I know you had said you've
done three sessions.
What do you notice the differences
in what, what do you allow
yourself to do to kind of tamper
expectations from previous sessions?
And what's the way you meander into a new
session without too much expectations?
Yeah.
So it, the whole expectation
aspect, I think is interesting.
My first session was.
Just wanted to
give into the mystery
and see what happens.
And I, there were a lot of little
useful lessons in that, and it was
just the most wonderful experience.
I think the second time there were.
Certain expectations, you know, and the
second time was still useful, but I, I
think that the expectations of it to be
exactly how the first one was were there.
And so maybe, maybe I was slightly
let down, maybe this third time around
being the third time I had already
been through that expectation cycle.
And so I, that wasn't there
weren't worries about that,
that wasn't on my mind.
So, yeah, tell me a little bit about what
you're walking with today as the bullets.
What, what's kind of alive
in you in this very moment?
What do you recognize
that you're chewing on?
Well, in addition to the things we've
talked about with like the limitations
and the kingdom of me there were
super helpful reminders on time and.
And you, you vaguely
talked to me about this.
Can you share the, the
end of your session?
What that was like about, I actually had a
couple things with time at the beginning.
There was just this obvious, what is an
obvious statement, but we don't usually
realize is that we can't influence
time, you know, like the clock ticks.
We can't influence time what we can
influence is love and we and the idea of
worrying about love well, not worrying
about love but loving versus worrying
about time So that's like it's found super
obvious, but it's also something that is
maybe, I think as humans, we maybe try
to get ourselves that we can impact time,
yeah, be more efficient, do something.
It's silly.
Yeah, we just have to give into it
that time is just a thing and don't.
That's not the thing to be focused upon.
And, and also, can you speak,
sorry to interrupt you.
Yeah.
I wanna speak about the love putting
more energy and time into love.
Can you tell me how that's
fabricated in your world today?
And what are you acknowledging?
Because I think as you said, it,
it, it seems obvious, and you said
that a couple of times, but the
practicality of it isn't obvious.
What, what does it look like
for you to let love in and do
that and express it in that way?
Well, you know, you just made me think
of something that to integrate on
this point about love a little bit.
Because so far I've been thinking about,
Letting love out and which I think is
important, but I also need to remember to
let it in and to be honest, that's sort
of a, a, a, a struggle of mine, I guess,
you know, like what's the challenge?
Well, if so, let's say the
hypothetical case where someone says.
Tells me that they love me.
There is unfortunately an idea of
doubt in my head sometimes, or a lot
of times, so not where there's that
message, but I have this natural
inclination to, to shunt it a little bit.
And you having said a few, you know,
a minute ago about letting it in, it
just Reminds me of love both ways,
right and How I can be better about
letting it in I guess i'll have to
figure out but at least to remember
Maybe that that's one of my one of the
things I struggle with a little bit.
There's some devotion though
There's some opportunity Witnessing
what the what the resistance is
, I mean I I think the resistance just
goes back to things from growing up.
And that can be difficult to explain.
And yet that's the work that we're
doing with the medicine right is to keep
evolving and transitioning into that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So yeah.
And so that's the, the thing on time,
but then I did later in my session have
just sort of a interesting slash fun
experience where I got into a mental space
where I, was sort of independent of time.
And in terms of like, that is a super
trippy place to be that it was fun.
So yeah, unpack that a little bit.
Describe for me what that looked
like and how that kind of played out.
Well, I felt like I was in this
space where if I In the room.
If I move my arm, let's say I already
knew that my arm had already moved, sure.
Or, or I just remember moving my
body and being like, oh yeah, I knew
10 minutes ago that I was gonna do
that, or I, that already happened.
Just really hard to articulate,
but interesting sort of
metaphysical existence experience.
Yeah.
But it goes back to the beginning
of our conversation of the words
becoming incapable of labeling, but the
experience in and of itself was real.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And maybe I can't put super precise
meaning to it, but there's something
valuable or maybe the word is interesting.
There's just something existing
in a different concept of time.
Right.
Right.
Yes.
neat, truly, and it's
these sessions get you
out of your normal life.
For a few hours, an experience like that
really gets you into Like way out of your
normal life and I felt for half hour
an hour that I was it's like a different
dimension you know and Well, and what I'd
like to do is just a little PSA too is the
advocacy of safety within a guide, right?
So I think what I'm hearing you saying
I would really like to address it just
as a public service is reminding you
when someone could get into that space,
it could be very destabilizing if
they're not in a safe set and setting.
And so can you speak a little bit about
that surrendering that capacity for
you to surrender within that realm?
Yeah, for sure.
I was thinking about this last night.
And I, that experience and
there was some mourning.
With a recent dog, my dog who
had died a few months ago.
And there was also during the
session, I remember using this
phrase blanket of protection.
Okay.
So.
During the session, there were at
least three things that were unnerving
or, or just where I felt vulnerable
was, the mourning of the pet.
This weird experience with time and then
also wanting some nurturing during it.
And I, that's this blanket of protection
phrase that I used in the session.
And so yeah, last night I was
thinking about that, how that could
have been difficult by myself.
And having, having the bumpers of a guide
to smooth out the experience is makes it.
So that you can go into it without doubt,
that bad things are going to happen, or
if challenging things do happen, that
there's someone that to help you there
and, you know, I think about, I do think
about the whole alone thing sometimes
alone sessions, because there is,
there is this.
You, you can hear about it, like, you
know, is it, is it Terrence McKenna
maybe that talks about the yeah,
alone in the dark room kind of thing.
And so, and I heard other
people say it in different ways.
So there's that concept and then
there's doing it with a guide and
I guess I'm curious, like, what,
like,
the, there's just.
I love it.
And I'd love to just interject because,
and I don't want to superimpose
the obvious of a guide only.
When I think of Terrence McKenna doing
that in a dark room, quiet by oneself.
I still advocate and many of us
that are talking about the support.
you can still have that.
So my challenging response to
someone that wants to go alone in a
room by oneself, that can still be
done and have someone protecting.
And I use the term, Tim, doing not doing.
So as one being a guide would say,
That doesn't mean there's influence.
It's just what you use the term
bumpers, that the person is quiet.
The guide would be sitting there in
case of something to be unraveled.
Right.
So I think often in this industry,
in this world we're working in is
so many guides are like jumping in.
And then making it about
them fucking selves.
And it's all about them.
And, oh, and to your point, I I'm not
the gatekeeper saying, but because of
all the things that could go sideways,
what I say to Terrence's opinion is
I'd say that him or anyone, I'd say,
well, you can still go at it alone in a
dark room, but let's have a safety net.
And that safety net being a sober
guide, sitting quietly doing nothing.
Right.
Yeah.
Because I've also heard horrendous
tragedies, and so then what I
wouldn't want is someone locking
themselves in their room or, running
down the street, you know, in
the proverbial nakedness, right?
Yeah, for sure, yes, and
If you're going to take the time for
yourself, you probably want to up
the probability that it's going to
be useful and positive, positive.
Not to say that there's not going to
be hard things to deal with, but yeah,
you don't, you don't want to come out
of the session with more to more to.
More challenges,
so yeah, and again not being the
gatekeeper Suggesting one way is
better than the other but it's
as if flying on the trapeze.
You still want a safety net Yeah.
Yeah, so I know that I Totally value
just going in, not having to worry about
that part and to have the trust that
of a guide to to help me through and,
provide the, the bumpers, as I said.
Yeah, I love it.
So you did say, and you led earlier with
what are you doing to be gentle, and I
often end, as you know, you talked about
going slower, being more intentional.
What would you say is the most magical way
you've been gentle with yourself recently?
I guess
there was actually a time right
after the session where I, like a
day or two after where I was asked
to to hang out with my mom and dad,
which, which is, which is great.
But at the same time, I kinda just
wanted to go inside and stay by
myself a little bit more and, you
know, What I sometimes can have done
in the past with those situations
is kind of get frustrated by it.
You're like, God, I got to do this thing.
And I kind of don't want to,
but I'm just going to do it.
But I was able to to reframe that
and make it a nice thing for me.
And for my mom and dad, where I said, Hey.
Maybe I want to just kind of sit
on the couch by myself a little
bit more after the, my session, I
had the luxury of having the house
to myself for a couple of days.
But I said, , I can give this sort
of, I can look at as a gift to my
mom and dad and I can you know, I can
show up with some dinner for them and
we can have a nice time and instead
of me getting frustrated about maybe
not wanting to leave the house.
Framing it as, somewhat of a
gift to them made it nice for me.
And I hope it was nice for them as
well, but it I was really happy with
myself of taking something that could
be frustrating sometimes requests from
other people and kind of meeting that
request in a way that makes sense to me.
And I was just.
I was really psyched up
about having done that.
It's a beautiful reframe.
Yeah.
Felt really good.
Tim.
Thank you so much.
I'm humbled by you and your process
and it's with deep love and respect.
I have for you.
Thank you for walking with me.
Thank you, Ryan.