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Conversations with business leaders and changemakers on how they built their business and what keeps them going.
Sahil (00:03)
Welcome back to another episode of Letters of Intent. Today we're gonna explore the human side of law and business and talk a little bit about how Pankaj and I met and what service means to him. So Pankaj, I wanna
start our story off years ago when we met through a program called Indicorps, which I know is a core experience that both of us had where we were involved in service projects in India. Can you tell us a little bit about why you got involved with Indicorps and what service means to you?
Pankaj (00:33)
Yes, Sahil. You know, funny enough, yeah, I think we became fast friends over there at our retreat for Indicorps. I believe we shared we had a shared like bunks or something in a in the tent, yeah.
Sahil (00:41)
Yeah, that's right.
Pankaj (00:42)
and so it was funny that we were kind of forced to get to know each other well pretty soon and you know, one of the things about Indicorps that I've always loved is that it brings people together who have really a desire to serve humanity in some way.
Right. And it brought people together from so many different walks of life, we all share a common history, you know, a common connection to India. But we're all living in the US or UK or Australia, these are all kind of non-resident Indians and second generation Indians who had grown up in another country.
So there's always a question of like, what does it mean to be Indian? What does it mean to be American? I think we all shared a lot of those same questions, right, that we grew up with. It's like, what does that mean to exist in a society that is Western and American, but then come home to a world that is more Indian and steeped in Indian traditions and culture.
And I was always intrigued by that question. And I think growing up reading about Gandhi and visiting India a few times, I think I went to India my first time, I think was in high school and it was not a pleasant experience my first time. We were just traveling from family house to family friends house to family friend's house. It was so hot, it was uncomfortable. But something drew me back and this desire to kind of
me meeting people that were part of this program and then saying, you should apply. And then, one thing led to another and I knew I wanted to do something related to service before I went to law school and this opportunity came up. And being in India, meeting people, who were all there to serve and help people was one of the most transformative experiences of my life because it showed me how much fun and how gratifying it was to help people.
At a poor place where nowadays we think so much about money and how do we make money and how do we live a nice lifestyle and support our lifestyles. But at that time, we were all generally single and we could just live to help others and it was such an amazing time that connected us with such amazing people.
Sahil (02:23)
So Pankaj, I remember you're right. So we were in the same tent and we were on a camping trip. And one thing I loved about Indicorps was the self-reflection component. So the whole concept was,
Pankaj (02:32)
Yeah.
Sahil (02:33)
we would read these very interesting pieces by thought leaders who were talking about development and what that meant. And I remember we used to wrestle with that idea often. Like we'd have these very intense debates, like what is development? For example, Gandhi had this concept of Gram Swaraj, which was like local development, or is development more, does it look more Western and more industrialized? And I really loved that kind of philosophical back and forth, and then
Indicorps invited us to participate in that question. And one of the things that I felt was by immersing ourselves in a community and working with people, you very quickly realize like you're not really helping anyone. You're learning together. You might be from different worlds, but the people you are quote unquote helping are going to be just fine without you. They've been
Pankaj (03:19)
Yeah.
Sahil (03:19)
living in those.
places they've been living with their systems
Pankaj (03:22)
Yeah.
Sahil (03:22)
and their world. But what is happening is human beings are getting together and discovering what it means to be human with each other and learning that interdependence is very satisfying and fulfilling. And I think it had a big impact on both of us because it's kind of ingrained in us from that experience to
examine the human side of what we're doing as well. And understand that each person that we're working with, like we might be even in our law practice, we might be serving someone in terms of helping them start a business, helping them create income for their family, for their communities. But in that service, there's generally some kind of lesson baked in for us. you know, and that that's
Pankaj (04:02)
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Sahil (04:03)
what I learned. That's like the thing that I got that I really feel like
a core lesson that has stayed with me that I feel like is very aligned with Carbon Law Group is when you're working with someone and you're there to serve them, inevitably you are going to learn a lesson that is going to serve you. And that's the thing to watch out for, and the moment your ego gets in the way and says, like, I'm here to help you, as opposed to we're here to learn together, you're missing the point and you're missing a huge sense of satisfaction.
So, I think I was really drawn, Pankaj, to your firm and working with you because of the values that you hold. And it's inherent in the way that you treat clients, in the way that you've built your business. And in some ways people might think public service and being an entrepreneur are opposed. But I don't see that in your experience. I see the way that you serve clients as going hand in hand with the growth of your business, which I've seen.
over the last year and a half. So could you tell me a little bit about how that spirit of service is aligned with your business practices?
Pankaj (05:02)
Yeah. No, appreciate that, Sahil. I want to just say that I think the reason we work so well together is also because, I think we share the same kind of existential analysis of life, right? And approach to life and saying, okay, what is this all about? And we think bigger than just the work in front of us is like what is this all about? How can this work fit into a grander scheme of like helping people and serving others
and the one thing I loved about just going back to Indicorps quickly, and you have to remind me of the question, I will get back to it, but
Sahil (05:28)
Yeah, yeah.
Pankaj (05:28)
like just about the experience of playing with this idea of service, like you said, like we're not there to help anyone and getting away from this whole, savior mindset, and we talk a lot about like, north, south and west and east, and like how there's this like mindset of like kind of a lot of times western
ideologies come in and try to act as like saviors to Eastern or there's that north south divide. we hear a lot about like social service. and trying to deconstruct that and realizing that I felt like one of the things I took away is like we are so similar, right? Like it's a happenstance that I was born in Chicago and in the United States to our parents. Like you realize like how much and this actually goes back to more spirituality too, right? Is like
how much is actually out of our control where we're born, who we're born to? And luckily, I think, we were both born to amazing parents that, nurtured us and cared for us and encouraged us to look beyond ourselves, right? Looked beyond the life that we have here and to see how we can serve others. I was given so much, so how can I give back a little bit?
Sahil (06:22)
Absolutely.
Pankaj (06:22)
Do a little bit
more for others. And I think that's what also what drives us, right? Sahil, in our practice, right?
Sahil (06:26)
Yeah.
Pankaj (06:27)
Like we were given this ability to learn and understand law and business law in a way that we can now help our clients. And now it is an active service that we provide for them, in the context of entrepreneurship and business. But, our goal is always to provide more value than people are paying for.
Sahil (06:43)
I definitely feel that. And I think that's part of the spirit of the firm is that if you're a client of Carbon Law Group, we want you to feel like you received more than you paid for. You received attention, care, urgency, quality, and that we are invested in your outcome as well. We want to make sure that you get to the finish line, whatever that finish line means for you.
Because we know in the process your success is connected to our success, both on a, actual physical, financial level, but also on an emotional, energetic level. And I think that's something that, kind of operates in the background. And I also think that's why we were really compelled to start this podcast because we see legal services can get expensive and most,
startups and entrepreneurs don't have the capital to get the kind of information that's usually gate kept behind big firms. And so Pankaj, I love that you talk a lot about democratizing information. And I can see that. I think that's one of the important reasons that we put this podcast out and why we talk about all these concepts that can be complex, and some of these concepts are dense and we try to simplify them.
But can you talk a little bit about the importance of democratizing information for entrepreneurs and founders?
Pankaj (07:50)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's a lot of information out there and it's like how do you parse through it nowadays, especially with AI. So I think more than ever, we have this ability to help guide entrepreneurs, people who are kind of going about this the first time, because you know, we've seen it now, many times over the years. People raising money, the challenges people see with business, why businesses fail. And our goal is to say, Okay, hey, we've seen this, we can use our experience,
use the wisdom that we've gained over the years and help people make better decisions. And we want to give that information away because I believe that we're here to like essentially give, right? We're here to approach life and we approach this practice with a giving mindset, right? With generosity. And I think then that's when the world works the best. If we can all be more generous.
Imagine how much better of a world it would be. And I think it's this like getting away from this poverty consciousness, this lacking that a lot of people have, especially in the West, the victimization. Like, no, you know what? We all have this ability to help each other and we can help each other. Imagine like how much better of a place it would be if we all did that.
Sahil (08:48)
Yeah, generosity is definitely a value that I see in the firm when it comes to the information we want to share with people through this podcast or even with our clients. I know you've made it a firm value that we are not just
Transactional draftspeople. We're here to develop advisory relationships. We're here to be that phone call for the entrepreneur or founder when they say, Hey, I just got hit with a term sheet and I don't know what any of this means. And I think not just being the attorneys who say, just give it to me, I'll do it, instead finding ways to break down that information in a way that our client can understand because we do respect our clients. They're the ones who are paying the bill. They're the ones who came up with an idea.
They're the ones who are excited about dreaming and bringing a dream to life. And I think I can see that in you, and I can see that in the firm's philosophy that we believe in the dreams of our clients and we want to see those come to fruition and we respect our clients. And as a result, we want to take these complex topics that we don't expect our clients to know about and break them into simple questions and answers so that we can get at the heart of,
what matters to our client? What do they actually care about? And that's what we want to reflect in their deals.
Pankaj (09:59)
That's what Letters of Intent is all about too. The podcast has many meanings. The name resonated with us too because we both like writing and thinking about ideas. So like, letters of intent is also kind of a letter for ourselves, right? Like we write these letters to ourselves,
you have amazing poetry and I love to like write a journal and think about these ideas. And that's the idea, like what is the intention here and how do we live life with more intention? And I think that's also kind of the play on words for this podcast.
Sahil (10:23)
Yeah, definitely. And I think if you listen to the podcast, you'll get to know a little bit about what our intentions are. I mean, if you hear about the topics that we explore, the people we have on as guests, we believe in our clients, we believe in entrepreneurships, we believe in the American dream. We believe in quality work product, we believe in always learning, we're never afraid to tackle new topics, for example, AI, or when, you know, for example, the president unleashes a new tariff structure.
Pankaj (10:47)
Yeah.
Sahil (10:47)
On all of
us. there are a lot of new emerging topics. And as attorneys, we don't want to pretend that we already have the answer to everything. Sometimes there are issues that are emerging or there are things that we're learning about. And we're doing that because we want to be better attorneys and we want to be the best we can be for our clients and stay on top of what's going on. And if we don't know, we want to learn and find out. And I think that's also an important value in why we have this podcast at the end of
any episode, if you hear Pankaj and I talk about a legal topic, we have learned more about that topic because we did the podcast episode. and because
Pankaj (11:19)
absolutely.
Sahil (11:20)
we've had this back and forth between us. So iron sharpens iron. And so you as the audience, you're getting to hear in real time, Pankaj and I sharpen our legal acumen and our ability to tackle the newest issues that are emerging.
Pankaj (11:34)
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think with that said, I think fundamentally we are in this together and that's why we have this podcast. We're doing this together. We're not, here just to be, you know, an advisor to our clients. We're here to be on the same team working on, helping them get the best outcome for their business and learning together and growing together. And that's the idea. And I think that's a lot of
the philosophy behind what we're trying to build here.
Sahil (11:55)
One other thing, I remember in law school, there's a point where you have to decide your track, right? Whether you're gonna go litigation or whether you're gonna go transactional. And
Pankaj (12:03)
Yeah.
Sahil (12:04)
litigation is critical. It's an important role in our society. But I remember being so naturally drawn to transactional work because
Pankaj (12:13)
Yeah.
Sahil (12:13)
I knew at the other end of that job is a deal. At the other end of that job is
people agreeing to create value and that was something I could be motivated by and that was something I could be excited by. And I remember my contracts professor, I was speaking with him, and I was like, you know, I'm thinking about litigation or transactional, and he looked at me and he goes, you're gonna be a transactional lawyer. He was like, Because
Pankaj (12:34)
Yeah.
Sahil (12:35)
I can see what you're motivated by. You know, you're
Pankaj (12:37)
Yeah.
Sahil (12:38)
you're motivated by people coming together and creating value and making deals and
growing. That's what I noticed Pankaj with you and I both is we want to see our clients grow and that's what gets us up in the morning every day.
Pankaj (12:50)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That is so true. That is so true. Yeah, with that, I think, we could talk a lot more about our service and we'll definitely have more episodes on this topic in the future because I think you know Sahil and I have so much to share about our experience in India. I think there's a lot that Sahil can share too that he didn't share today. but yeah, yeah, I think so. And you know, and also just opportunities in India too. And India India, Indicorps and
Sahil (13:05)
Yeah, we could do an episode on India too. Yeah. On Indicorps. Yeah.
Pankaj (13:12)
even looking at India today and the market, because
I think we have global clientele and doing deals around the world. So I I think there's definitely an opportunity to talk about, okay, what is the global landscape for deal making in twenty twenty six and twenty twenty seven?
Sahil (13:24)
Absolutely. Well, thank you
Pankaj (13:25)
Yes. Well
Sahil (13:26)
all for joining us on this episode of Letters of Intent. This is the podcast for deal makers and risk takers brought to you by Carbon Law Group. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you share it with a founder or entrepreneur who would benefit.
Pankaj (13:40)
Awesome. Till next time. Thank you.