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The Silvercore Podcast explores the mindset and skills that build capable people. Host Travis Bader speaks with hunters, adventurers, soldiers, athletes, craftsmen, and founders about competence, integrity, and the pursuit of mastery, in the wild and in daily life. Hit follow and step into conversations that sharpen your edge.
I am so fascinated by our natural
world, by what we already know about it
and by what we're still figuring out.
And right at the edge of that, in
the space between settled science and
folklore, is the conversation about
UAP, or unidentified aerial phenomena.
What we used to refer to as UFOs.
Last Friday, the Pentagon dropped
162 declassified files on the subject
through a new portal they call Pursue.
This is the first formal federal
release in 80 years and people
are losing their minds about it.
Some, they're calling it disclosure.
Some are calling it a nothing burger.
And I've spent the last year
talking to someone who I think
can cut through all of it.
My guest today is a man who
grew up on the BC coast.
He joined the Army Cadets at 12.
He served a full career in the Canadian
Armed Forces, including a NORAD posting,
and came home to serve as deputy
fire chief in the town he grew up in.
He's been running a discussion group
of scientists, researchers, and
military intelligence folks for years.
He's been a guest host on a
podcast that interviewed Lue
Elizondo and other big names.
He's been approached by the
federal government to advise on a
Canadian UAP initiative alongside
sitting members of parliament.
But here's the part that
makes him interesting to me.
He thinks most of the people on the
stage right now, they're full of it.
Not the topic, the people.
He believes in the
possibility of life out there.
He does not believe that the witnesses
currently making the headlines
are the ones who have found it.
That's a conversation I wanna
have today with a guy who got
close enough to see the seams.
Welcome to the Silvercore
Podcast, Rocky Swanson.
Yeah.
Thanks so much.
You know, while we've been chatting,
I, I've been looking forward to this.
No kidding.
Ho- honestly, it's been a hell
of a, uh, education for me.
So I was first put in touch with
you, and you were put in touch
with me by a mutual friend of ours.
Right.
Now, this mutual friend of ours also
served in the Canadian Armed Forces,
and he holds a government position.
He's a person who has, um-
extremely high credibility, and he's,
uh, been trained on observation and
surveillance and, uh, and reporting.
And what he did is he said, "Trav,
I, I got this thing that I was doing
surveillance in a remote area, and
myself and a few others, we all
saw this thing flying in the air or
floating in the air. We didn't know
what it was, and so we videotaped it,
and we pulled it up, and we looked at
this thing, and we got a copy of it."
Now, I've received formal
permission from him to be able
to release what he saw there.
Uh, I haven't sought or received formal
permission to release his name, so
I'm gonna just leave that out of it.
Um, I will put that thing up in
the background as I'm talking
right now so people can see
what it is we're looking at.
But, uh, that got you and me talking,
and it introduced me into other people.
Some people call it a UAP,
some people call it a plasmoid.
Some people have com- completely
other ideas about interdimensional
beings and the rest.
But whatever it was, um, it at the
very least sparked a conversation
and an ongoing friendship between
myself and you, which I'm hoping we're
gonna be able to continue further as
further tranches are released as the
Pentagon releases more information.
But why don't I turn the
mic over to you, Rocky?
Yeah.
Um, well, our mutual friend,
first of all, when- whenever that
story actually breaks, he is, um,
a
true
subject matter
expert in the areas of, uh, reconnaissance
in the armed forces, and I've known him
since we were 12 years old, actually.
Mm-hmm.
We, uh, we were in the Army
Reserve together, and then
I went to the regular army.
But, uh, that gentleman, uh, stayed with
the Reserve in a full-time capacity and
worked his way up, uh, to a very high
position and, uh, served overseas and,
and is, uh, someone, uh, that within the
armed forces is, is almost legendary.
He, he is- Mm-hmm ... a,
an exceptional soldier.
So yeah, there's, there's no
credibility issues when it
comes to that story whatsoever.
And I, I reviewed those, uh, video
clips that he had sent as well, and, and
they're, they're interesting for sure.
Mm. He definitely s- they
definitely observed some-
something that was making a light
off in the distance, and it was, um,
it, uh, I would say it spooked them.
That's my words, not necessarily
theirs, but, um- Sure
yeah, very interesting for sure.
So you, you actually provided examples
of the exact same-looking thing
in other areas of the world that-
Right ... has been observed going up
and down, doing the same sort of thing.
Um, y- I guess before we get
into the nuts and bolts of all of
this, just for my own edification,
what do you think that thing was?
I don't
know.
Um, I-
Mm
...
I don't actually know.
What I think it was, and
this is just me surmising,
was based on the movement and the distance
that they were looking at, there's a good
chance it was a drone off in the distance.
Okay.
Um, 'cause there, because there are
literally thousands and thousands
of drones flying every day.
Mm. And,
and certainly what they were,
what they were doing, uh, obviously
had to do with drones themselves.
And, and, uh,
that's the, that's the part that's
so interesting is that these
people, this mutual friend of ours
and, and his team are, are subject
matter experts on drones as well.
And so- Mm ... for, for them
to, uh, be baffled baffles me.
And, uh, so- Mm-hmm ... there are,
there are sightings of objects that
remain mysterious, and that's okay.
It's okay to not know.
Okay, little bit of a technical
glitch there, but we're able to get
it addressed, so we'll just pick
right back up where we left off.
Yeah, well, I, I think that
the fact that these guys are...
Like, often we'll hear stories in the
UFO world about, you know, subject
matter experts and, and whatnot, but
what was interesting about this case
is these guys really are, uh, some
of the best, um, that the country
has to offer on, on drone technology.
They are, um, trying to be careful
not to identify what agency they
work for, but they're government.
And they, um, um, were
baffled as to what they saw.
And not only that, th- these gentlemen
are truly trained in observation.
We, we hear that a lot, again,
in, in ufology circles, you know,
trained observer, but no one ever
defines what that really means.
In armored reconnaissance in the Army,
uh, which is what some of these people
did, their, their level of understanding
about how to observe objects at a
distance, how to observe objects at
night, over water, over valleys, in foggy
conditions, they've got this nailed down.
Mm. So it is an interesting case.
And, and the fact that they were so,
um, jolted by it and, uh, you know...
Or, yeah, the fact that they were
so jolted by it is what really got
me because, you know, I was always
embarrassed, uh, to tell my Army
friends about my interest in the topic.
Mm. Right?
And, and a lot of them, uh, would
kind of look at me like I was weird
just because I was into it, including,
I have to say, one member of this
team that we're talking about.
And when he phoned me up out of the blue,
um, to, to ask me to look at something
for him, um, that was interesting, and I
took it quite seriously because, um, he
wasn't into this topic in the slightest,
right?
So- Mm. So I- Um- I was just watching
this, uh, episode of Diary of a, of a CEO,
and Steven Bartlett, who's the host there,
he had a couple guys on, uh, got their
names around here somewhere, but they're,
they're experts in their field about,
uh, UFOs, UAPs, and, and all the rest.
But the thing that I found interesting
was that Steven, he likes his
true crime detective, uh, podcast.
He says he's gonna approach it from
that angle, and he kept asking questions
like, "What proof do you have?" Like,
like, "How do you know?" And some of
the interesting ones that I think are
inter- I kinda like are, um, what, like,
what would it take for you to believe
that this is something other than alien?
And I get the sense that a lot of
people in the field of these experts
are completely entrenched in their
idea that this has gotta be real.
Yeah.
And they just look for reasons that
confirm what they already have.
And what intrigued me in talking with
you, because when I was preparing
for my podcast with Chris Ramsey,
who does, uh, Area 52, and he's a,
uh, Canadian YouTube personality.
Right.
And he, he's into the whole thing as well.
Um, what struck me about you is
you come from a perspective where
you've got a deep interest in it.
You believe that there's,
there's something out there, but
you're also highly skeptical.
And you apply a framework to all the
information that comes in to try and
separate the wheat from the chaff.
So as we're looking at this new
disclosure that comes in from the, uh,
the Pentagon, are we seeing anything new?
Is there things to be separated?
Like, and I, I guess- Well... Yeah, go on.
Well, for those that have been
into the topic for some time,
there's not a lot new there.
I mean, there's certainly some new video
clips, but you can't make much of them.
Mm.
I have to say, though, there's,
there is one particular clip that...
Well, there's two that I, I'd like
to mention real quick and, and,
and I'll get into them if you wish.
Mm.
Uh, one is that there's this sort
of star-shaped image of an object.
It looks like a star-shaped object
kinda zooming around and, and,
um, uh, it's pretty impressive.
It's taken through thermal imagery, uh, or
so it appears to be taken through thermal.
There's not a lot of data there
to know for sure- Mm ... you
know, what it was using.
They... Some people are claiming it was
a, of a specific type of drone camera.
That's all fine and good.
Um, I have a background of, uh, more than
30 years working with thermal imagery
in the field, weapons grade thermal
and, of course, in the fire service.
I teach classes on thermal imagery,
um, and, and how to understand, uh,
what you're actually looking at.
And, and I'm, and I don't claim to be an
expert even yet, even with all that time.
A real expert is somebody who
can pull those cameras apart and
understand, you know, down to the,
you know, microscopic level- Mm
everything that's happened.
Mm-hmm.
Well, I'm an n- and I've worked with
F18 pilots- On observation skills
and armored, uh, soldiers in the
army as well, and, and in the Navy.
Um, so the, the whole
gamut of the armed forces.
Um, I've worked with the RCMP,
uh, you know, using thermal and
people with drones, et cetera.
So, um, what I see when I look at a
thermal image is, first of all, um,
one thing we all have to understand
is that thermal close-up can give you
a good, accurate representation of
a shape of an object, because it's,
it's measuring the first 100th of a
millimeter of surface temperature.
Hmm.
But when it's further out, um,
that starts to distort because
you're, you're actually measuring
the air and gases around an object.
So something like an illumination flare
dropped from a P-3 Orion or, you know,
here on the West Coast we have P-3s.
They're- in Canada, we call them
Auroras, but that's, it's a P-3
Orion, a reconnaissance aircraft,
submarine, anti-submarine aircraft.
They're, they're 40
kilometers away from my house.
I see them dropping these flares
every Thursday night pretty much.
And so when you are looking through
something extremely hot and bright,
um, through thermal, it is different
than, say, using night vision goggles.
Two totally different technologies, right?
Hmm.
Thermal, thermal ... Th- both, both
tools, night vision and thermal, will
both give you, uh, artifacts that
aren't necessarily something that
you would see with the naked eye.
Hmm.
So for example, hot gases, you
can, you can see that with thermal.
But, you know, smoke, you'll
see right through most smoke
depending on how dense it is.
That's why we use them in firefighting.
That's why in the Army when we pop
smoke from our, our, um, armored
vehicles, um, you know, often we can
see through it, but of course the
Army has a, a f- a special kind of
super smoke so it, it, it can block-
thermal images as well.
Sure.
Um, so this image, um, when I look
at it, what I see is, um, potentially
a illumination flare and that it's
distorting, the image is being distorted
because again, you're not really
seeing what the object is shaped like.
You're seeing potentially the hot
gases around it, and that's giving
you these artifacts so it looks like
something really out of this world.
Hmm.
And now, look, I can't say 100% if it
is out of this world or it isn't, but
I can say I easily replicated those
images last week using a thermal imager
camera and pointed it at the sun.
Hmm.
And, and within seconds my theory
in one part of it was proven wrong.
So I thought that what I was seeing, and,
and guys like Steven Greenstreet thought
they were seeing, was a smoke trail.
And, and, you know, so then I
started scratching my head going,
"Wait a minute. That, that actually
doesn't work." So we're not seeing
a smoke trail behind the object.
What we're actually seeing is an artifact
on the lens, not on the lens, but the, the
recreated image that the thermal processor
is, is giving us is, is actually, it's
almost in a sense, how do I describe this?
It's almost like it's burning into
the lens of the, of the viewer- Sure
It's moving around and the, the, the,
um, the camera's trying to catch up.
Sure.
And so it's kind of leaving a g-
There, there's a refresh rate.
Yeah, exactly right.
So it's not, um, it's not a
smoke trail that we're seeing.
So I initially said it was a smoke trail.
I was dead wrong.
So I don't, I don't mind ... I'm
happy when I'm wrong, 'cause now
I m- know what I'm looking at.
Mm. That's what I was able to recreate.
By just taking up a thermal imager
camera, pointing it right at the
sun, and then just moving the camera
around, I was able to create that
same zigzag pattern in two seconds.
So- Mm ... it's not a smoke trail.
Um, but you'll see more of
a blobby mass behind that.
That's probably superheated gases.
And, and why that tells me that it's
probably not something highly advanced is
because anyone who's creating an object
that, that is going to be of a super
advanced technology isn't gonna wanna
waste a bunch of energy out the back end.
And so this thing is just pouring
heat out, and that's, that's not,
uh, that's not, um, green technology.
That's that's old school stuff.
It's likely a flare, right?
And so if aliens are coming here and
they're wasting that much energy,
I, I don't think they'd get here.
Mm. So it's, that's a theory on my part.
But I, you know, it's, it's, it's
easily recreated, so therefore
I don't really think much of it.
Um, there's another artifact within
that image that, um, myself and others
were saying was likely the parachute
from the flare, and I would retract that
statement now and say that's also likely
an artifact, and so I was fooled as well.
So here I am making
my ... discrediting myself, right?
Um, I- Well,
this is why I wanted
you on, because you can take an objective-
look at these things.
Well, yeah.
I mean, and it's ... And, uh, look, every
time we're wrong about something, it's
an amazing moment, 'cause you're like,
"Okay, my, my most foundational, uh,
thoughts and initial hypotheses on what
this was gonna be are, are off." But
the fact that I was able to recreate it
still tells me it's likely a, a, a flare.
Um, but I put that in the gray basket
because I can't, I can't say definitively,
um, yet with- Mm. So the next one was a
more clear image of what appeared to be
a bright, shiny object flying, zigzagging
in and out of some wind turbines.
Okay.
Uh, looked like a foggy day.
What, what's actually happening there
is that there's a, a drone that's
quite high up filming something
at a extraordinary distance.
That drone in and of itself is, is
not just flying in a straight line.
It's actually taking a, a turn at one
point, and its camera's on a gimbal.
And here we go with gimbals again.
Um, and this is where the viewer,
uh, us watching this on our TV
screens or on our, on our cell
phones ... And that's another problem.
We should talk about
cell phones in a moment.
But when we're watching this
on a screen at home, we don't
know that the camera itself is
moving and turning when it- turn.
So it makes it like the object
that it's filming is actually doing
a 90-degree turn, and in fact,
that object never turned at all.
It was flying in a straight line.
It also isn't zigzagging in and
out of the, uh, wind, uh, turbines.
It's actually not even close to them.
It's flying in front of
them, uh, in a straight line.
But due to those optical illusions,
um, we're, we humans are easily fooled.
Mm. And so
I don't know what the object is.
Some people think it's
a bird or a balloon.
I, I don't care.
All I know is that it wasn't
doing anything amazing.
Mm. And
so, you know, that, that's just
one of those things and, and
this isn't surprising, though.
I mean, 95% of most things we observe
are going to be easily explained or
at least, um, to use an overly used
phrase, they're going to be prosaic.
Mm. Right?
And that's good, right?
So we, we can, we can scrape that stuff
off the table and go, "Next," you know?
Mm-hmm.
And piece of evidence, right?
I think that when you look at the
totality of sightings and the, um,
the technical data that we do get
from some of these things, there
are mystery objects, uh, out there.
They're a mystery to the
people that should likely know-
Mm ... um, in, in a lot of cases.
If we go back and look at the 2004,
the now famous 2004 Tic Tac case with
the- Sure ... USS, you know, this,
this was the famous case that Luis
Elizondo and Chris Mellon and those, uh,
gentlemen brought out from the Pentagon.
Um, I'm extraordinarily skeptical
of that case, not because I think
that, um, the pilots like, uh,
Commander Fravor or anybody are lying.
I just don't think it's fair to
assume that just because somebody
is a highly respected pilot or a
highly respected counterintelligence
officer that they necessarily
have all of the data available.
And, you know, when I called, uh, a
couple of friends at NORAD about that
case, the, the, the thing that struck
me most, um, instantly, I guess, is that
they, they were not worried about it.
Mm. And were more or less inferring
that they know where they park at night.
So- ... um, certain it
was something of theirs.
And, you know, um, you, you pick up
your, your slipper and toss it across
the room, and NORAD pretty much knows it.
So it's, it's, um ... They, they,
they have some incredible abilities
at NORAD, and I think that because of
the secrecy around their abilities,
um, often we'll hear alleged subject
matter experts say, you know,
"We know for sure it's not ours."
Mm. Be careful with that because
there's a lot of silos out there, and
there's a lot of programs and projects.
And not only that, um, I, I've worked
with F-18 pilots like Commander Fravor.
Not him personally, but with pilots
that flew F-18s and, um, th- certainly
they are experts at observing targets on
the ground and, and targets in the air.
But- When they observe an object
they've never seen before, they're
equally baffled like anybody else.
Mm. The, the human ... to, to observe
and calculate and, and, um, uh, discern
what we're looking at is, is no better
often with pilots or astronauts than it
is with the average person on the ground.
It's ... In, in those conditions, it,
it's extremely difficult, especially
if the object is moving quickly.
Mm.
You know?
And it's, you know, it's, it's difficult.
Um, I'm also not impressed by
that story in the sense that we
appear to be fed a narrative.
We're told about the TikTok.
We're told that it's flying,
it's doing hypersonic speeds.
We're told that it's doing 90-degree
turns, and it's, it's, um, working
outside the area of known physics.
Mm. Is
it?
When we look at the video, we see
an object, like a blob, moving
lazily to the left off the screen.
We don't see anything
that they're describing.
And I've found that since
2017, specifically, often when
these stories come out, we're
told, "This is what happened.
Look, you're seeing this." And, and
it's sort of like, you know, the
old Obi Wan Kenobi, "These aren't
the droids you're looking for."
Like, like, "Here's the story, here's
the narrative. Believe me, because I
have an impressive resume." Mm. And
I'm ... I, I made a ... I have made
every mistake you can make in this field,
and I'm sure I'm making some still.
Um, and that is that I allowed my
feelings about senior chain of command
officers to affect my critical thinking.
In other words, I thought, "Well, this,
these are well-placed, high, you know,
high-ranking officials from the Pentagon.
They definitely have the facts down."
Mm. They ... I was wrong about that.
You know, and there's, there's
personal motives there with some
people that are, you know, whether
out to make a book or, or, sorry,
sell a book or a video or whatever.
And I'm not- Sure,
sure
...
anybody in particular,
but that's just a fact.
There's, there's people out there trying
to make dollars off of this as well.
Um, and I, I'm sorry if I'm jumping
around here a little bit, but I'm just
giving my impression of the recent ufology
in the last, say, nine years, right?
Well,
I figured, uh, what I was
we can do is we can talk a little
bit about how you got into this
subject field- Hmm ... of interest,
how you started- Sure ... to become
critical of these sort of things.
Yeah, okay.
Yeah.
I'm obviously gonna touch down on 2017
specifically because you brought that up.
And, you know, uh, there is another
point in here which, which I hear coming
up all the time, and it's this idea
that there's a cabal of people- Hmm
out there that are controlling
things or controlling a narrative.
And I'm- Wrong I'm not convinced that
there is- No ... some, some cabal of
people that are trying to influence and
control the world for their own benefit.
I do believe that there are
people who will surf a wave
of something that's happening.
Sure.
They'll see something happening out there,
they're like, "Ho-ho, the ocean's rising.
We got some swell.
Let's get on our board.
We're gonna make some hay.
We got the books and videos, and we
got some money to make." Oh, sure.
And I think that happens in all
categories, but I think it's lazy
for people to, uh, abrogate their
responsibility and their agency and
say, "Well, it's, is outside of me."
And that's- Yeah ... that's the part
that really intrigues me about your
approach, is that, and you can correct
me if I'm wrong, but you seem to have
a bit of a rubric or a framework to how
you approach, uh, information that comes
in, and how you internalize it and put
it into whatever bucket it's gonna be in.
And the really interesting thing,
I think, is that you haven't ruled
out, despite ruling out a lot of
stuff, you haven't ruled out the
possibility of some of these claims.
That there might be technology, or
there might be, uh, life out there.
So that's sort of the, the gist of
what I was thinking to go, "Well,
why don't we start with- Sure
you?" Like, how did you get into this?
Yeah.
And then was there an aha moment that took
you from, "I, I, I think there's something
out there, I want to believe," to,
"Okay, time to get a bit more critical"?
Yeah.
Yeah, there was.
Um, I, I... How I got into it exactly
is, is kind of all over the map.
I've given a number of different
answers on that, and, and that's because
at any given time I'm remembering,
you know, one thing or another.
But, you know, when I was nine years
old, um, I was here on the West Coast.
Uh, it was Saturday morning,
I was watching cartoons.
Wile E. Coyote and the Roadrunner.
Love that.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, I looked over my shoulder.
We, we had a waterfront home.
Back in those days, poor
people lived on the waterfront,
so- ... you know, there we...
And, uh, um, I saw what I thought
was the moon, I think, you know, and
it was just, uh, shining in the sky
like a full moon, but it was, uh,
like a foggy s- um, foggy morning.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, um, that, that kind of foggy
morning, though, where the sun is
bright and, and it's breaking up.
You know, anyway, I could see
what I thought was the moon, but
it was, it was weird looking.
It didn't look exactly like the moon.
And so I started watching cartoons
again, turn back over my shoulder,
and this thing is closer.
And, and it's silver, and it's-
Mm ... round, and it's huge.
And, um, I could also see the moon
off to my left, so it wasn't the moon.
And, um, I had never heard of UFOs.
I had never heard of any of this.
I was nine years old living here in the
countryside and, and I had no concept.
So I was just baffled as to
what it was I was looking at.
I didn't, I didn't have
any framework to go on.
Like, so I didn't sit there and,
and say I saw a UFO, because
I, I had never heard of that.
Um, the most- I'd ever seen was, you
know, we lived out in the country,
so we didn't even have cable.
We had rabbit ears on our TV.
Sure, yeah.
And it wouldn't come in clear, you know.
You would smack the floor and shake the
TV- Mm-hmm ... and hopefully it'd clear.
Yeah.
That's who we were, right?
Um, so anyway, that was exciting.
I, I saw something and, and, um, was
just sort of baffled by it, and went
back to watching cartoons and, and,
you know, kind of forgot about it.
But over the years, um, you know, so
years went by and then, and then this TV
show, The X-Files, comes on and I start
thinking, "Oh, maybe I saw something."
So it interested me enough to dig.
And, um, I think that I became
ardently skeptical initially when
I was listening to sh- TV show, or
not TV shows, but radio shows like
the old Art Bell, Coast to Coast.
Which I, I Yeah.
And a lot of late nights in the Army,
AM radio, listening to that stuff.
So it was very intriguing.
And yes, in fact, there were
stories told by some impressive
folks that, that sounded plausible.
And so I kept an open mind about it.
I, when I say I started off as, as a
more of an ardent skeptic at, at that
time, I'm talking about my early 20s.
Um, I, I just hadn't seen
anything that I found compelling.
Mm. Uh, but when, you know, years went
by and I, I got kind of fascinated
with Richard Dolan's books and, and
different people out there, um, I started
going down the UFO, ufology rabbit
hole, where I was becoming more of a
believer based on stories being told
rather than myself, um, being able to
dissect any objective, uh, evidence.
Mm. Right?
So, so I was slowly myself going
down the rabbit hole of believer.
And then 2016 hit, and I'd finally
sort of got out of that, that
thinking just around the time that
Lue Elizondo and Chris Mellon r- you
know, came forward and started talking.
And so I jumped right back into it.
And, um, I didn't have a life jacket on.
I just jumped in headfirst and
started basically believing what
these guys were saying- Mm ... based
on the fact where they worked.
And actually, I had some mutual friends
that, that sort of knew who Lue was and,
and that kind of sold it for me, right?
But, um, uh, over time, talking to, you
know, gentlemen like Lue Elizondo and,
and others, I started to, you know,
like a lot of people, just notice that
there was a lot of talking going on,
but the evidence wasn't coming out.
Like, what was being presented
a- as evidence was... And I'm not
saying this about Lue or anybody
specifically, I'm just talking about
the, the subject here in general.
Um, the evidence that was coming
forward was not, um, compelling.
Like, the, it was fascinating, but
no- there was no signature there
that said, "Aha, this is definitely
something out of this world."
It, it just didn't match the story.
Mm.
So I, I was kind of embarrassed
because I, um, noth- there's nothing
like shame as a motivator, right?
To- Uh,
and it-
Mm-hmm ... and, um, I, I, I
investigate arson and, and explosions.
I'm a, I'm a fire investigator, and,
um, I, I had to give myself a slap and
said, "Why am I not applying the same
rigorous standards to this topic that I am
applying to fire and arson investigation?"
And, and the answer was
because in this topic, I wanted
the answer to be one thing.
Mm. I was, I, I was polluting
the data myself, right?
With my, my hopes and
dreams of it being real.
And so I, I backed out for a few years,
and then decided to have a look at
it again with a, a more critical eye
and, and just look at the evidence.
And not as a debunker.
I'm not out here to, to, to
debunk every single story.
Um, uh, but what I, what I do believe is
that this is one of the most fascinating
and, like, the most important topics
we will ever discuss as a people.
And if that's the case, if it is so
important, if it is so fascinating, it
deserves the most rigorous, skeptical
attention it can possibly get.
When we're given a story, we
should rip it apart and look for
those golden nuggets in there.
And guess what?
One of these days we'll
probably find the real thing.
I have no doubt.
The, the universe is ridiculously large.
Um, the, the, the idea that, that
we're the only life out there,
no one, no one thinks that.
Nobody thinks we're the
only intelligent life.
But has it come here?
And if it is here, is it hiding from us?
Is it... You know, what
i- what form does it take?
You know, is, what is this?
So what I think we should do is be
exceptionally serious about this, and,
and treat it the same way we would
if we were investigating a cancer
case of some new kind of cancer.
We would look for data.
We would hand out our data.
We would ask for people of, of those
levels of expertise that deal with
that cancer to rip it apart and look
for the, the signs of, of, you know,
what's, what's happening there, right?
Mm.
And I don't believe right
now we're seeing a lot of
seriousness when it comes to this.
We have people claiming they're
serious, and then in the same
breath they tell you it's a demon.
Mm. And I, I, I, I, I'm sorry, but-
To see an object in the sky that
we can't explain and then to jump
to it's one of Satan's angels is,
is a little too far for me, right?
So I think we need to back up, um,
and, um, and, and stop accusing the
demons of doing all this stuff, right?
We, we need,
you know, we just need to,
um, look at what we have.
And in, and in a lot of cases
we have fascinating, um, video.
Uh, supposedly there's radar data out
there that nobody ever gets to see.
Um, I have seen some radar data, and there
has been some very fascinating, um...
Actually, everybody should look this up.
There's a guy named Daniel Oti- Otis.
Um, he's with CTV News.
He's a very good friend of mine.
And, um, he, he writes a lot of the
stories on UFOs for s- uh, CTV here
in Canada, and he's interviewed
a lot of these, these folks.
But what he has done that's really
fascinating is he has, um, received
more access to information requests.
In other words, in, in Canada, we
don't use ATI ac- um, sorry, we don't
use, um, FOIA in Canada, we use ATI.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but in the United States
everyone's familiar with the
Freedom of Information Act requests.
We have FOIAs provincially, but
federally we use something called
the ATI, Access to Information.
And Daniel has, uh, received some
incredible data from the Canadian
Armed Forces through the ATI
process showing that in fact we
have detected objects moving at
incredible altitudes and exceptional
speeds, and that is interesting.
So someone out there does actually
have some toys that are, uh, at the
very least exceptionally advanced.
That cannot be, um, denied
by any debunker or skeptic.
And I am a skeptic.
I don't know what those
objects are, but they are real.
So, so there, there is something
to this topic as far as people
actually seeing objects, for sure.
Hmm.
That's where I'm at.
I don't know if I rambled too much there.
Well, if you were to apply, and I know
it's difficult 'cause you're gonna be
working off of memory from when you're
nine years old, but- Yeah, yeah ... and,
and you tend to... The mind tends to
conflate things and, and change things.
Yeah.
But, but if you're to apply the
same sort of rigorous approach
back to what you saw when you were
nine, what do you think that was?
Well, I it took me a long
time to, to dig into this.
At that time, our home on the
water faced, um, southwest.
And over the horizon on the Pacific
Ocean there's an island out there where
the air force used to do bombing runs,
and at that very same time they were
testing something... And someone is
gonna tear me apart for this because
I'm gonna get the details slightly wrong
here, but they were testing something,
uh, what's called a bromine bomber.
Hmm.
A
bromine... And it, and it was
capable of leaving gaseous clouds
in the atmosphere that could,
could be very deceptive looking.
And I- It just turns out that at
that very time that I saw that object
that that may have been going on.
So there's one possibility.
Um, as far as it being, you
know, something from out of
this world, I don't know.
But I can tell you when you witness
something that's so strange like that, it
gives you all kinds of feelings, right?
Mm. All the feels come alive in your-
And I didn't know about UFOs, and
I was... The hairs were standing up
on my head and- Mm-hmm ... and I, I
remember that sort of chill, right?
Mm. And so I don't blame anybody
for, for, um, initially, you know,
maybe jumping to a conclusion.
But at some point we have to do,
you know, what we say in the Army,
which is suck back and reload, right?
Yep.
And, and then try to come... And
I, I don't have an answer, uh, as
of what it was definitively yet.
Um, and it's 40 years ago, right?
I don't know.
And, uh, so, so it's just one of those
things that, um, it's fine to not know.
Mm-hmm.
I'm not going to attach... I'm not
gonna blame the aliens for everything.
So, um, it's an, it's an
unknown to me at, at this time.
I think that humans, uh, just
innately love to be in awe.
They love to be- Yeah ... amazed.
And there's, the juxtaposition
of that is they also love to
try and figure it out, right?
And it's like going to see
a- Right ... a magic show.
And some people will sit down and they'll
watch a magic show and like, "Holy crow,
how'd they do that?" And they leave.
And other people are like, will be sitting
there intently watching and scrutinizing,
going, "I figured it out," right?
But, but there's- Right
there's a joy that could be happening
on, on both sides of the gamut there.
I, I think that UFOs and the,
the unexplained stuff kind of
falls into that exact same sort
of psyche of, "Hey, this is neat.
This is new.
What is it?
Huh.
Must be the gods fighting in
the, in the, uh, the skies or
demons being sent down-" Right
a- as an explanation.
Um, but just like magic, there's gonna
be people who make a living out of this.
Yeah.
How much of that do you think is tainting
the public perception of, uh, of what
actually could be or should be looked at?
Way,
way too much.
Um, real data, real evidence
often just speaks for itself.
It doesn't need a podcast.
It doesn't need a blurry photograph.
It doesn't need a, an explanation
from somebody of a high rank.
Evidence that's clear, any one of us
should be able to look at it and go,
"Holy crap, look at that," right?
And, and it would be, uh, I would suspect
in most cases... You know, if we see a,
uh, an airplane doing something weird,
you know, we don't, we don't care if
the pilots are believers in anything.
We just go look at that airplane.
It crashed.
It did this or that.
Um, we're not asking
for somebody's resume.
Um, real, real evidence is often self,
um, explanatory in a sense, right?
Mm. I don't know if that
makes a... Stands out.
What we're seeing right now is,
um, for whatever reason, a lot
of people- Of authority, giving
us their opinion without, without
providing objective evidence.
They're- they'll often provide something
they claim is evidence, and they'll tell
us what it is and tell us what it means,
but then it's, it's really not backed up.
And, and, you know, those three initial
videos, Go Fast, Gimbal, and Tic Tac,
I believe the reason that those three
videos were, were chosen is because
we will argue about them for eternity.
Mm. It ke- it keeps the conversation
going for whatever reason.
Um, and you could pick
any number of reasons.
They're not, they don't
have to be nefarious.
There could be a very good
reason that somebody wants that
conversation to take place.
Um, but I think that if you choose videos
like that, that there's no possibility of,
of discerning any useful data from them.
Mm.
Um, th- there's got to be
a reason you chose that.
And if we look at the reason that was
written on paper why those videos were
chosen, um, they were allegedly pulled
out to help train pilots, um, in some
training scenario on observation.
Mm. Well, that is not at all old, right?
We know that now based on, on FOIA
done by people in the United States
like John Greenwald and Stephen
Green Street and others that received
these documents showing what the
given reason was for pulling those
videos out of the Navy files.
So, um, it's, it's fascinating.
If you want a narrative to fly, um, the
best thing you could do is, is have an
ambiguous set of data- Mm ... so that you
can just argue about it forever, and if
I disagree, you can just call me an evil
debunker, and you can say it's aliens, and
there's nothing I can do about it, right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, you know, I, I think it's, it's
very odd that those three videos
were, were chosen, and I think that
the military, I think the Pentagon
was totally blindsided by that.
Um, you know, i- is there some
deep, dark cover-up of, of
known extraterrestrial material?
Maybe.
But evidence supporting that cover-up is
always kind of just off of what you would
need to be definitive about that as well.
Mm. Right?
Like, there's ... It's, it's easy
to spin a tale to make it look like
the government's covering things up.
But, um, uh, I ... When we
start pulling on the strings,
it doesn't really add up a lot.
And, and trust me, there's,
there's thousands of memos out
there where military people were
baffled by seeing something.
Sure.
But again, being baffled
and, and not knowing does not
then mean you know, right?
I, "I didn't know what it was,
therefore I know it's alien."
That's not how that works, right?
I
think there's a reason why the Trump
administration has called for the release
of files and they're being released in,
in tranches, in, in, in sets right now.
That's almost a loaded question.
It's, it is totally a loaded question.
Yeah.
Um, well, I mean, I'm gonna stay away from
the, Trump's personal politics because
a lot of people throw that out there.
Hmm.
And I don't have evidence of why he,
he decided to release these things.
However, in the Republican side,
the conservative side, you'll find
that, and I was a card-carrying
conservative myself for decades, um,
that the, there is more openness quite
often to, um, this type of thing.
Hmm.
Right?
And a lot of pressure, I think,
being put on the Pentagon
for about 20 years actually.
Um, if we go back to the 1990s, the late
'90s, early 2000s, there was already
pressure being applied to the Pentagon
and the White House, um, to, to at
least make the topic something that we
could discuss without being ridiculed.
And I, and you know, that
has now happened, right?
Like, we, we can now discuss this
without being called wackadoodle.
Hmm.
Right?
Um, there's still a lot of
wackadoodle stuff surrounding
it, but it's, that's okay.
Sure.
You know, we, we can
have discussions, right?
And, um, oh yeah, when I, when I
first came out to talk about this
stuff I would get red in the face
and I'd be all embarrassed, right?
Sure.
Um, that's just how it was,
um, even, even 10 years ago.
Hmm.
But why, why now?
Um, I think that the pressure placed on
the topic, the, the type of, um, noise
that's been made by, by these alleged
insiders has, has moved the conversation
to the point where the mainstream
media and podcasters and people like
yourself have, have applied enough
pressure from the grassroots and, um,
that, um, the public representatives
just decided that, "Okay, let's just,
let's just get to the bottom of this.
It's getting a little bit ridiculous.
If aliens are here, if they're not,
they're not, and if we have something,
let's show it." And I think for the most
part, um, government agencies are being
very open and, and transparent about it.
But there's allegations that
there are still, um, agencies,
you know, three-letter agencies
within the government that
are, are hiding this stuff.
And I can say that I have friends in
the intelligence world that, that,
uh, are themselves convinced that
there is something more, you know?
That there really is something more.
And I've asked why they think that.
They claim that they've seen some kind of
evidence and won't tell me what that is.
Hmm.
And, and so I respect their privacy
that way, but it really sucks, you know?
And, and so have they been fooled?
I don't know.
But they're, that, that one thing, um,
seems to, um- It seems to be consistent
that there is at least the belief that
there is at, at minimum something, um,
exotic that was, uh, at least witnessed
or recovered or, or understood somehow.
And, and yet, the, uh, you know, good,
hard evidence for that is fleeting.
It has not arrived on our
kitchen tables at all, so.
There seems to be a lot of,
"
Trust me, bro," in this- A
lot of that ... in this world.
Yeah.
But- There's a... Sorry.
Yeah, have you seen anything that
would, uh, that would compel you to
believe that there's more to this
story, whether that's, uh, UAPs, beings,
extra dimensional, uh, whatever, or
that is heavy enough to be placed on
one side of the scale as maybe so?
Well,
no, not in the sense that I could
say extraterrestrial, but there are
phenomena that, um, certainly exist
that are unexplained at this time.
Like, there's these, uh, very... You
don't hear about this very often in the
UFO community, but there are these sort
of images, like panels of light that
people witness going through the sky.
I've seen some videos of this stuff
that I, I know the videos are legit,
and there's been some studies done by
the French, um, about 20 years ago.
I think they had a report, I think
it was called the COMETA report.
Mm. And a lot of people attribute
that to the French government.
It wasn't really the French government.
That's an exaggeration.
It was former government of military
officials that decided to look into this
topic, and there was some stuff there that
was at least potentially new atmospheric
phenomena that we didn't understand.
That's the most I've ever seen, uh,
um, that was compelling in that sense.
And, and I think that we're going to
discover, um, a lot more atmospheric
phenomena that is just new to us but
very, very normal, very natural, right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, that said, I, when it comes
to the ETH or, or even the
non-human, what do they call it?
The non-human intelligence
or something like that now.
Mm. Um, I, I... It's hard to keep
up with all the nomenclature.
That's right.
But, um, the, um, uh, look, the... There
is no way we can rule out extraterrestrial
hypothesis, um, altogether, right?
I'm not trying to rule it out altogether.
I'm trying to, um, dig down into each
case that comes along when I do look
into this stuff and, um, you know,
is it... You know, can we explain it,
uh, in, in any number of ways or not?
And if we can't, awesome, we can
put that one up in the green bin
and, um, get back to it and, um, and
then, uh, see what we can find out.
But I haven't, no, I haven't
seen anything that compels me to
say they're definitely here, so.
Yet, yet you're still a believer.
Well, I'm a believer in that aliens exist,
that extraterrestrial intelligence is out
there somewhere, that the, uh, likelihood
of, uh, highly intelligent, communicative,
uh, space-faring civilizations is 100%.
I have no doubt in that.
It, it w- the, the reason- And the-
... I'm, I'm so confident is just numbers.
Just numbers, right?
The, the, the, the number of
stars out there are endless.
So even if the number is 1% of planets
have life, that number is so large that
I don't know what number that is, right?
Mm-hmm.
Like, it's...
The, the universe is endless, so it's got
to be.
So from the balance of probabilities as
opposed to beyond a reasonable doubt.
So you're taking the, uh- Yeah ... C-
Canadian civil court measures of,
uh- Yeah ... evidentiary rule to, uh-
For sure ... as opposed to criminal
court measures of it's gotta be
meet this threshold to be absolutely
definitive before we can act upon it.
Right.
Okay.
Yeah, like, when, when people say to
me, um... They get very angry with
me because they're, they're saying
I'm just a debunker or whatever.
Well, telling me a story, although I don't
think I'm being lied to, is not evidence.
It's, it's a belief that someone
had an experience, they believe they
saw something, and they believe they
know what it was or what it- Mm.
That is not something I can take to
a laboratory and, and study, right?
It's, it's compelling.
It's interesting.
It's something that I'll
keep in the back of my mind.
But it... I'm not gonna go on
the six o'clock news and say,
"John over here saw an alien
spaceship," because he says he did.
That, that doesn't fly.
Mm. The
fact that the military films or records,
uh, objects, you know, through thermal
at a distance that the observers
don't understand is no different.
Um, the, the claims of radar operators,
I... You know, I'm... My wife was a
former Navy radar operator, and, um,
um, you know, she taught at the Naval
Fleet school for a decade or something.
Um, so we've had many discussions
about this kind of thing.
And my, my father was a commercial pilot.
I, I worked around aviation and this stuff
my whole life, so I have good connections
to talk to people about the details of
these things, and, um, and I've listened
to pilots and doctors and, and, and all
kinds of people say they've seen things.
Mm. And so, yes, people see things.
There are thousands of things to see,
but does any of the, the evidence so
far presented by anyone ever constitute
definitive proof of extraterrestrial
intelligence or materials?
Not yet.
We're not there.
We have to be disciplined.
This, this isn't about d- debunking,
it is about our personal discipline and
the ability to take a breath, observe
that evidence, don't just throw it out.
Like, let's be respectful
of that, that claim.
Put that claim on the table and start
pulling it apart and see what we find.
And it's not pulling it apart in
the sense to say, "Aha, I've got
you, you're a liar." Mm. No, no, no.
It's, it's... We pull
it apart and guess what?
We found out it was XYZ or, or we didn't.
And, uh, we will keep doing that until
the day comes when we have that telltale
sign of something extraordinary,
I think.
Wh- what was it, do you think, that
really started to drive you from diving
in headfirst, like you say before-
Yeah ... and just like, "I want to
believe" to, um, "Okay, let's get
this skeptic's hat on a little bit"?
Yeah.
Uh, it's a little embarrassing, and I
don't want to, um, embarrass anybody else,
so I'm gonna, uh, leave some names out.
Okay.
Okay?
Um, if, if that's fair.
Um, I started to get to know some of
these folks that were coming out of
the Pentagon and, and making claims,
and I, uh, on a personal basis.
And when, um, I was in, in those circles,
um, and, and asking for, you know, w-
what it is that they knew, what was the
big evidence, um, it wasn't good, right?
The, the answers I w- was getting
were really no different than
you would get in, in any sort of
folklorish, um, you know, tale.
Mm. It, it, uh, they didn't have anything.
And when I was approached by members
of our own government, um, on this
topic, some of those people from the
United States were, were also involved,
and it was clear to me that there was
a sense of belief without evidence
that they themselves within, not the
Canadian government, but especially
the American officials, were believers.
Mm. They, they had a... They did not
themselves have firsthand experience, or
at least that's what they were saying at
the time, of, you know, actually seeing,
um, you know, definitive evidence.
And in fact, there, there was some...
There's this, the same group of people
claim that they had this material that
they did isotopic ratio testing on.
I was able to speak with the scientist
who runs that laboratory, and his
conclusions were very different than
what their conclusions were, right?
Like, he did not back them up at all.
He said that they jumped to conclusions.
Mm. People can figure out
who that is and look it up.
But, um, so, so I did my own research.
I, I phoned... You know, w-
little things were happening.
Like some of these people were phoning
me up and saying, "Hey, we're gonna-
we know you were a warrant officer in
the Air Force. We're gonna bring you
back. We're gonna get your security
clearances upgraded, and, um, we're gonna
read you on to the, the, these programs
that we're working on with NORAD."
And I'm like, "With NORAD?
Fascinating." So I phoned a buddy
at NORAD who was in, um, uh, their,
one of their intelligence sections.
Um, and they have something they
used to call the ISRD, Intelligence
Surveillance Reconnaissance Division,
and then that would break down into,
like, counterintelligence and whatnot.
And so I, I knew two guys there,
and I, I phoned and, and, and
just started having conversations.
These are people that I know
closely- Mm ... as close as
the friend that you and I have.
Mm. And, um, they ... One of the questions
I asked w- was, "These people that
are approaching me from the Pentagon,
these former Pentagon officials,
are they really working with you?"
And they're, and they, they said, "What?"
They looked into this, and they called
me back and said, "Absolutely not.
We, we don't even know who they are."
Mm.
And, um, and they didn't, you know,
crap all over the topic, but they,
they ... That, what I was being
told, what I was being pulled into
had nothing to do with the, f- what
I could tell, anything legitimate.
It was very odd.
It was like, um, "Rocky, we
want you to come on camera.
You're gonna be a big hero in all of this.
When this is over, everybody's gonna
know your name, and you're gonna be a big
hero 'cause you're, you're an incredible
researcher, and you're ex-military.
We're gonna get you to hold up these
documents and, and be on camera,
and that'll give legitimacy to it."
I'm like, wait a minute.
Like, look, look behind me right now.
You see a bunch of tools on, on my wall.
I'm an average slob.
The, the military brain started kicking
in, and I'm like, wait a minute.
I am the last guy on Earth
that a legitimate intelligence
organization would contact to give
context and, and any sort of, um,
credibility to such a serious topic.
You only contact people like me that
are sitting in their garage, uh,
you know, working on old Jeeps if,
if you wanna create a narrative.
Mm. Sell something.
You, you get people like me, David Grusch,
whoever, um, that have some military
background, and you can kind of dress
us up, put some lipstick on us, and make
us look pretty, and get us to say some
things so that it sells a narrative.
And that's what I felt was going on.
Why they were doing that, I do not know.
And, and, you know, they might have
had very good reasons for that.
But it gives one the sense
that it's a grift- Mm ... that
you're be- used for something.
That's the sense I got.
These people that were involved in
this I'm sure will see this interview,
and they need to understand that
that is my perspective and that's
how it felt and looked, right?
I'm not making any accusation.
What I am saying is that is exactly
how it came across, and every hair on
my neck stood up and I just felt like
there's something wrong with this picture.
Conversely, on the Canadian government
side, it was a totally different picture.
It was science-based, fact-based.
It was slow, it was
methodical, and quite serious.
And yeah, there were a few believers
in that pile, uh, in that woodpile as
well, but those beliefs were kept off the
table and it was strictly to the science.
So I'm really proud of
Canada actually for that.
That's, that is now, that
program is now called Sky Canada.
I'm not involved with it,
but that's the new program.
Yeah.
W- h- how does Canada rank
on the world stage here?
Because it seems to be a North American
phenomena from what I see, some South
America sightings and stuff happening.
But it, it seems the idea of, at
least from the research I've done,
people will point to, uh, UAPs,
UFOs, extraterrestrials as being
predominantly a North American thing.
Is- am I researching that right, or?
Well, no, no, that's, that's...
So the, the perception of it being
North American is, is easy to, to
dissect and understand because the,
the North American, mainly United
States media, has been pumping
this stuff out hard since ever.
Mm. Right?
Like, it's part of the zeitgeist
of what it is to be American.
Um, but it is everywhere.
I mean, it, it is a topic that is
fascinating, excuse me, around the world.
I would say this though about
Canada and where we rank.
If and when something serious is
discovered, I would not be even
slightly surprised if the place that
you first hear it from is Canada.
The people that we have
looking at this are serious.
They're not goofballs.
They're not, they're not even
known to the public, right?
These are people that are seriously
looking at data and calling in the
right subject matter experts and,
um, keeping a close eye on it and
dissecting everything they can and,
and working hard in that, um, sense.
And, and I, I'm proud of Canada for that.
Instead of going out on the news
and showing a blurry, undescribable
thing, they're just behind the
scenes working hard trying to
figure out what's out there.
Mm. And I have, I do have faith in
them that they'll, um, they'll come
forward if there's something serious.
And as far as the military goes,
I was never exposed, um, in
the military to anything UFO.
But- While I was in, I was, um, in my
last couple of years in the military,
I was so fascinated with the topic
that I asked, um, the base commander
up in Cold Lake where I was stationed
at the time if I could approach pilots
and intelligence officers to speak
about this topic, to ask questions.
And his answer to me was very simple.
He said, "Warrant Officer
Swanson, you can do that. Just
don't embarrass us." That's it.
That was the only thing, right?
And, um- No promises.
No, I did encounter F-18 pilots that,
that had seen objects that were, um,
shocking to them, and they, they, uh,
um, were unknowns over the Arctic.
And in one case, they were doing
an exercise near Hawaii where
they, they saw something as well.
And so, um, um, there, there
wasn't a sense when I was in the
Armed Forces, um, of any kind of
a cover-up or that you couldn't
talk about, would ruin your career.
You know, and it didn't ruin my career.
In fact, um, members of the
chain of command loved calling
me up and talking about it.
People were, were genuinely
interested to, to have the discussion.
What they didn't want was every Tom,
Dick, and Harry phoning the base
to report every light in the sky.
Mm.
Right?
That becomes problematic because we've
known this for decades, that one of
the reasons that the military has
shied away from taking reports from
the public is that we knew that the
Russians knew that if the Russians f-
started flooding our phone lines with
false reports, that we wouldn't be
able to see what was really out there.
Mm. We'd be, we'd be so overwhelmed with
false reporting that we might miss a
real threat from the former Soviet Union.
And so things like, um, UFO reporting
became, um, very compartmentalized,
and that led to, uh, a lot of
what people felt was a cover-up.
Mm. It, it wasn't a cover-up of knowledge.
It was a cover-up in the sense of we
just can't handle all of this coming in.
We need to deal with real defense
issues, and we can't be bothered by this.
That, that has to go to somebody else.
And so at that time, whenever that
was, 40 years ago or so, the Armed
Forces farmed out these questions to
different, um, agencies, like Transport
Canada held this file for a long time.
Um, and there's, there's different,
uh, agencies and even some
civilian, uh, work was done.
Um, uh, by, uh, certain
scientists in Canada that
would receive the CL-213 files.
That's Checklist 213.
It's a, it's a checklist that's used,
uh, when reporting UFOs in the military.
And, um, a UFO being unidentified
flying object, right?
And, and so these reports would go
to, um, uh, Chris Rutkowski in, um...
I think he was with the University of
Manitoba or University of Winnipeg, and
he would, uh, uh, compile these reports.
And Chris has written... He's
not a friend of mine or anything.
I've, I've had the pleasure of speaking
to him once or twice 100 years ago.
Um, but, um, he's written some
books on the, on the topic and, and
he's, he's the guy that was really
taking these reports at that time.
Mm.
Different story.
Today, because of the, the public
attention paid to this, the known drone
threats and the known confusion created
by the wide array of objects that are in
the sky, clearly the federal government
and the armed forces have taken a
very different approach on this now.
And, um, that's why I'm, I'm certain
that if Canada discovers something,
um, legitimate, we'll know about it,
and we'll, we will see that in a very
different way than what we're seeing
presented by the famous ufologists,
the Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp
and these folks that are out making
millions of dollars off this topic.
Mm.
Uh, it'll be very
different than that.
Yeah.
When, when you were talking to the
different pilots and you're learning
about what they found to be out, uh, let's
say you said in Hawaii or over in Al-
Yeah ... Al- Alaska, was there a common
thread between what they're talking about?
Well,
well, in, in those two stories,
the objects were, were large.
Mm. Um, ac- according to one pilot, when
they saw the object over the Arctic,
that it was big enough that, um, it
scared the pants off them, you know?
The- whatever they thought they saw.
And interestingly enough, in, in November
of 1986, there was a, a now famous
case from a Japan Airlines flight.
It was Flight 1628, I believe.
The pilot's name was Kenju
Terauchi, and he had 29 years of
flight experience at that time.
And they were flying
near Anchorage, Alaska.
They were coming over from
Europe and then off to Japan.
And, um, and they witnessed what they
described as, as, uh, an object twice
the size of an American aircraft carrier,
according to them, and it was glowing.
There were other smaller objects,
uh, allegedly flying around it.
Um, and this thing looked like
a flying walnut shell, for
lack of a better explanation.
What's interesting to me about that
story, which is kind of being somewhat,
not debunked, but kind of swept away,
is that what our pilots- Our Canadian
Air Force pilots described to me without
ever having heard of that case, was
that they described the same object.
And or, or, you know, to me it seemed
like they were describing the same thing.
Mm. Something
of that size, something
of that amber color.
Um, so I, I don't have
an explanation for it.
There are scientists, atmospheric
physicists, that have described different
types of, um, lighting conditions over
the Arctic that might explain that.
What isn't explainable is that... Well,
no, it is explainable, just not in
the sense that debunkers would like.
That in fact the object that Kenju
Terauchi and his flight crew saw,
not only did they see this thing
allegedly out the window of their
airplane, it was tracked on radar.
It was tracked by Elmendorf
Air Force Base, Eielson Air
Force Base, and, and Anchorage.
And, um, it was serious enough that the,
um, West Coast division chief for the
FAA, a guy named John Callahan, flew up
to Alaska to gather up all that data.
Mm.
And, uh, and then gave some briefings
to the CIA allegedly on that.
I say allegedly because I, I can't
back up- Sure ... what another ... as
they did, but John f- seemed
like a pretty serious fellow.
Now, who knows, uh, if what he's saying
is accurate, but it was interesting.
It, th- there was some correlation
there between what these pilots had
told me privately, and I can tell you
they had never heard of John Callahan
or Kenju Terauchi or any of those cases.
Um, so again, there are
things that people see.
Does that equate to intelligence?
Does it equate to
extraterrestrial intelligence?
The evidence that we have currently does
not, but that's just because... Well, it's
not just because, but it's, it may only be
because we don't have enough data clearly.
Mm. Uh, or we've, we've encountered
atmospheric phenomena that are not
widely understood or, or known.
Either one of those can be true
and, and both can be true at
the same time as well, right?
So again, I don't sweep
that one off the table.
I take it quite seriously.
When, when that pilot, when the
Canadian Air Force pilot was telling
me this story, um, I was the acting
sergeant major in a forward operating
location, a Norw- a, a NORAD forward
operating location up near Inuvik.
And so I say acting sergeant major 'cause
I was never actually the sergeant major.
I was, uh, a warrant officer.
There was no, there was no master warrant
officer there, so I took on that role.
This pilot was the commanding officer
at that time, so he wasn't some noob.
Mm. He was your guy, and he became
a general in the Canadian Air Force.
And, and he is the one that told me that.
I'm not releasing his name because,
you know- Sure The media knows who
he is and, um, if he's ever willing
to talk then I'll, he'll, he'll talk.
But, um, he didn't say he saw aliens.
He said he saw this, what they thought was
a big object and that they flew under it.
And, um, that's, that's something
for an F18 pilot to say.
That's really something.
Mm. And
I ... That is the only case
that I personally hear and
go, "Wow, um, what was that?"
You know?
What was that?
Really?
I don't know.
Yeah.
That, that, out of all the ones
that you've studied, that's the
only one that you've really kind of
just been scratching your head on?
It is.
It i- it is because I sat
face-to-face over breakfast
with this officer.
Um, I, I got to see him on
the job commanding his pilots.
Um, I knew what a serious thinker he was.
I knew that he had never, ever,
uh, approached this topic.
The reason he decided to talk to me
was because I had gone to the chain of
command and been given permission to
sort of openly ask these questions, and
I happened to have a book with me at
the breakfast table in the mess hall,
uh, Richard Dolan's book, um, like,
UFOs and the National Security State.
And I- Mm. It ... Like, it was sitting
on the table and he, he grabbed
it and spun it around and he, and
he said, "Oh, you're into that."
And I said, "Well, maybe." Right?
Maybe.
Why?
May- ... And, and, uh, and
so we had that discussion.
Um, so yeah, I guess I'm kind
of, um ... You know, you asked me
earlier in the interview here about,
um, you know, was there anything
and, and I s- I basically said no.
But it, yeah, I guess it's that.
If there was something that I
found super compelling, it's that.
Not in the sense that
I think it was aliens.
In the sense that it is one of
those unknowns that is so strange
that the ETH should be placed
on the table in all likelihood.
Now, there's probably atmospheric
scientists out there e- that
are gonna hear this and go, "No.
No, ET should not be placed
on the table." That's fine.
Then let's hear them speak, right?
Mm-hmm.
Let's hear ... Clear that off the table,
and then we can move on to the next thing.
But, um, yeah, I, I do keep an open
mind towards that, that possibility
because again, it would be the
greatest discovery of history, period.
You know, wouldn't it?
I, I'd say so.
I mean, the, the experts out
there that are doing the podcast
circuits, that are talking about-
Yeah ... what they've, what they know.
The, the underlying thing that
comes back to me is, again,
the balance of probabilities.
They're saying- Yeah ... we
believe it because of just this
preponderance of information.
Mm. People saying the same
thing, which we know- Yeah ... we
can be influenced, right?
There can be ... I mean, the-
extraterrestrial image that came from,
uh, Close Encounters of a Third Kind
became the, the way that everything
looked Right Whitley Strieber came
out with Communion and- Communion.
Yeah That's right.
That was... I remember reading that book
when it came out, and I don't think I
slept- Right ... with the lights off
for, uh, for a while after that because
every time I closed my eyes, I was sure
these gray aliens were over my bed.
But, uh, but that's all in my head, right?
That's all based on-
Yeah ... the information that
you hear and, and I think- Yes
I think there's... The, the other things
that I hear the experts talking about,
they're, like, there's a lot of things.
They say it's proven there have been
bodies that have come from the crashes.
Mm. Again, trust me, bro.
Um- Right ... the, the reason why
it's, um, it's secret, that we've
kept it secret, is 'cause there's an
arms race or a technology race between
Russia, China, and the US, and nobody
wants to talk about it and- Right
tip their hand as to what
the, they might be working on.
And there seems to be a growing,
uh, chatter of, well, no, no, it's
not, it's not extraterrestrial.
It's extra-dimensional or
sub- j- uh, under the water.
D- um- This is why when,
when, when, when these kinds of
stories come up, and this is, this
is not new, um, a- and you're pressed
and pressed for evidence, eventually
it always goes to the ethereal.
It always moves off to the
religious side of things.
There's a very distinct religious
framework to a lot of this stuff, a
higher power, bright lights, angelic
beings that can get into your mind.
They're here to help you, or they're evil.
Um, there, there is, there are so
many parallels between this and
religion that, that it's easy to slip
down that, that very slippery slope.
Um, you know, earlier you said y- you
didn't think that there was some cabal
of people controlling everything.
Neither do I. But what I think there is
is like a collective ignorance in a way.
Um, I don't know what else,
what other word to put in there.
But by collective ignorance, what I mean
is it's easy to start connecting dots on
alleged sightings that have no connection
whatsoever, and that connection of
dots then becomes the, the lore, right?
Hmm.
Um, I saw one, so... And then
another person says, "I saw one." But
actually, what do you mean you saw one?
You saw one what?
Right?
You saw something you could not explain.
Someone else saw something
they could not explain.
That does not mean those things are
in any way, shape, or form connected.
But when people start thinking they
are and you connect 10,000 cases,
it now looks like a phenomena.
There is a phenomena there all right,
the phenomena of belief, for sure.
Hmm.
Regardless of any ETH or non-human
intelligence reality to this, that
phenomena of collective- Delusion almost,
is also real and should not be ignored.
The other phenomena of grifting, if we can
call that a phenomena, is a real thing.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
People making millions
of dollars off of this.
If you look at the political situation
in, in 2016, specifically in the
States, and you look at what certain
political folks that were running for
office were saying, they were, they
were saying everything they could to
undermine the government, to undermine
every agency they possibly could.
"Don't trust the government, trust
me." The modern-day ufology information
that we've been receiving from
alleged Pentagon officials, former
Pentagon officials, is very similar.
"Don't trust the FAA. Don't trust the
Air Force. I've got the answers." Right?
Once again, undermining institutions.
Why would anybody wish to do that?
Do they just believe that they have
the real answers, or is there some
other reason that they want you to go
to them for stuff rather than going
to those well-trusted, um, agencies
that we've, we've relied upon for
our national defense for decades?
I believe that there is a reason
that they wanna do that, and I
believe that reason is contracts.
There are billions and billions
of dollars attached to defense
contracts, and it's really important
to keep that wheel spinning, to keep
people scared so that you can keep
getting those next defense bucks.
I'm not saying that's what all of this is.
I am saying that some of this is
absolutely that, that there are those
people coming out of the Pentagon...
Look, look where they work.
Follow that money and see where
those people work, and, and it'll
be, um, fairly, um, telling.
When you look at Jeremy Corbell and
George Knapp, who, who I don- I don't
know these gentlemen personally.
I've spoken to both of them
over the years, but I, I
don't know them personally.
Um, they are, they are
selling a product, right?
They're selling a belief.
And, you know, they've got a guy like
Bob Lazar out there who has exactly as
much credibility in this topic as my
laboratory retriever when I was a child.
Like, none.
Mm.
And I know that there's people
that are gonna hear me say this
and just hate me for saying it.
They're gonna crucify you for that one.
Yes, they are.
And the reality is that I can take
Bob Lazar's story and rip that to
pieces in, in about two seconds.
I've been following that guy's
story, um, since it came out.
Mm. Right?
And there isn't a shred of it that,
that holds up to 10 seconds of scrutiny.
It is a narrative that has been sold to
the public, and it's a beautiful one.
I love that story.
You know?
Um, a nerdy photo developer who's,
you know, installing curtain rods in
people's houses and, and developing
photos in a photo booth, has an interest
in electronics and physics, um, claims
to have gone to some schools where his,
his records were magically deleted,
um, is, is picked up by Robert Fineman
while standing outside of Los Alamos
National Laboratories and given a job
to work on the most secret thing ever.
Wow.
Right?
It does not hold up.
It would be like coming to me in
this garage right now and reading
me onto some top secret program.
Not gonna happen.
I wish it would.
My, my fantasy-prone mind
says- ... you know, "Damn,
that would be awesome," right?
That's not happening, and that's
not the way that stuff works.
I have been involved in, in, to
a small degree when I was in the
military, a couple programs, nothing
to do with UFOs, but had to do with
weapons testing of, uh, cl- at that
time, classified weapons systems.
And, and, um, all I knew was
what I absolutely had to know,
and I'll tell you what that was.
I had to know that they were involving
lasers, and I had to know that
at a certain time I needed to put
goggles on 'cause these things were
being fired from above us someplace.
And that's it.
That's all I ever knew.
Hm.
If you don't need to know something,
you're not going to, right?
Mm-hmm.
And to just pull somebody off the
street that has absolutely no published
papers or no credentials whatsoever
is absolutely bonkers, right?
It's, not with something
so absolutely sensitive.
And there's a, there's a, a
million other reasons I could pull
that apart, but my point wasn't
to pick on poor old Bob Lazar.
Um, I don't dislike the guy.
I think he's an old-time
storyteller, and I love that stuff.
But the reality is, um, that is not
how this stuff is gonna come out.
You know?
That is not how science works.
We're not gonna find out from, from,
you know, some random dude that, that,
um, you know, got chased out of Area 51.
I- if there is secret knowledge
out there... You know,
you could put it this way.
We know we've got secret knowledge
about, let's say, Soviet weapons
systems or Chinese weapons systems.
I know we, we, we have highly
classified information on this stuff.
Y-
do you have any friends that
are like, uh, for example, in
JTF2, Special Forces folks?
Yes.
Have you ever met anybody like that?
Yeah.
Right.
Those who talk don't know,
and those who know don't talk.
Mm-hmm.
How often are JTF2 guys out blabbing their
mouths off in public about what they do?
Mm-hmm.
Never.
Mm-hmm.
If we have something, if the
United States have something, it's
people like that, people with that
sensibility, people with that discipline
that will be in charge of it- Mm
that will be looking at it.
I'm not meaning Special Forces.
I mean people with that,
that serious frame of mind.
The reason that our friends at, in the
Special Forces don't talk is because what
they deal with on a daily basis is real.
It's not a game.
It's not a, it's not a video game.
It's not a movie.
It's real life and death stuff.
If we have a team of people, scientists
and whatnot, dealing with something so
sensitive like hidden extraterrestrial
technology, it will be dealt with
in exactly the same manner, right?
And so yes, you could hide stuff and
you could cover things up, but you're
not gonna have some Bob Lazar-ian
character pulled off the street into
JTF 2 to run their range, right?
Mm. Like, I, I don't, I don't see JTF
2 guys knocking at my door saying,
"Hey, you seem cool. Come and work
with us." That's not happening.
Well, with Bob, I thought the
compelling thing there always was that
there was no financial motivation,
and there's only downside to him.
Like- Wrong.
Okay.
Wrong.
There's a absolute financial
motivation for this, and there's,
there's other motivations too
than, other than financial.
But, um, Bob's made all kinds
of money off of UFOs, you know?
Um, especially recently off
of his movies and stuff.
But, um, there, there's... And
Bob, and, and Bob's friend, um,
George Knapp, I mean, he's made,
he's made an absolute career out
of selling these stories, right?
Now, there's nothing wrong
with selling a story.
I mean, awesome.
Good, good for them.
But, um, you know, just think
about this for, for a minute.
In Bob Lazar's story, how much evidence
was he able to provide to prove
anything that he ever claimed, right?
So he claimed that he had this education
from MIT and, and some other university.
That turned out not to be the case.
He, in fact, went to Pierce Junior
College, where he placed in the bottom
20% of the class, barely passed, right?
And a minor electronics diploma, right?
Mm. Okay?
Not somebody that Robert Fineman's gonna
be bringing into a classified program.
Um, you know, when it comes to his
understanding of physics and, you know,
element 115 and that whole story, um,
so people will say, "Well, you're wrong.
Bob had his name in a phone book, um,
out at the laboratories." Well, yeah.
Those laboratories are just big, giant
hangar spaces where you can rent lab
time, and different companies will,
will rent, um, you know, lab space
and, but e- it's a very secure place,
so they'll, they'll have everybody
who's out there listed at that time.
And today it'd just be on
a, on a webpage, right?
Mm. Um, there's nothing about that.
Rob was wor- Uh, Rob.
Yeah, like I know him.
Uh, Bob Lazar- Um, for a company and
he was doing, uh, repairs on, um,
dosimeters, so det- radiation detectors.
Mm. Um, I know the exact devices
that, that he was working on, and a
lot of these are just little, little
things about this size that, that
hang around a soldier's dog tags.
And, um, um, I'm forgetting the
exact name at the moment here, but
they're, they're, they're round.
And when you unscrew the cap, there's
like one Phillips screw in there, and
you unscrew the cap, and there's a
couple pieces of foil and some devices
that, that take a measurement over
time, and he was replacing the, the
little foil piece inside, screwing
it back together and throwing it
in a bin and grabbing the next one.
Mm.
That... This is something that we
would get a private in the Army to do.
Mm.
Right?
Not technical work.
Um, not saying he's not intelligent.
I'm saying that this guy's a storyteller,
and that to rely on people like that
to prove that there's some giant cabal
is, is the w- is the wrong direction.
By all means, if people
wanna believe him, go ahead.
You will not find out any truth
following th- those stories.
It's not gonna happen.
There was a YouTube video that I watched.
It was... I forget what it was called.
It was, like, Behind Skinwalker
Ranch or something like this.
Yeah.
Or Skinwalker Ranch Uncovered.
Do you know, do you know
what video I'm talking about?
I think so.
I think so.
Okay.
Um, it, it- Is that one of
the Steven Greenstreet ones?
I, I believe it.
I believe that might have been the one.
I've watched it a while back,
but- I might have sent you that.
Yeah ... you may, you may
have sent me that one.
Um, so I watched that video, and it
seemed like there was a follow the money
trail there on that one as well too,
that the, uh, that the, uh, creator
of that video was, was alleging.
And they made a very compelling case
too when they started pointing- Yeah
... pointing these different things together.
Is, is that the current framework,
in your opinion, of, uh, ufology?
Well,
there's...
It's,
it's, it can look like
there's this one group, right?
Because there are a number of
people that are connected now.
But when you go back to Skinwalker
Ranch and the program that the DIA
was running out there, that was the
AAWSAP program, the Advanced Aerospace
Weapon Systems Application program.
That was a program created through a, a
funding deal with some senators and a,
and a scientist named James Lacatski.
And, uh, I have no issue
with any of those folks.
It's just that James Lacatski had done
a number of government programs and
knew exactly how to get funding for
something to, to write up the, the,
uh, request for a proposal type of
contract that one would need to get
defense bucks to, to do something.
Mm.
And so, so Skinwalker Ranch had been a,
a well-known folklorish place since the
'90s wh- when one family, uh, sold it
and then, um, Robert Bigelow, uh, um- A
businessman, a real estate guy from, from
the States, uh, d- was very fascinated
with the topic and bought the land, and
then he was friends with, with, um, George
Knapp and people like Art Bell and stuff.
And they, they sold this idea
that there was something strange
happening out at Skinwalker Ranch.
Mm-hmm.
Fantastic werewolves and
goblins and the dino beaver.
The dino, uh, crypto creature
that they ever spoke about.
OSAP, this supposed serious Pentagon
program, um, is what James Lacatski
and his team ran, in that they, they
were looking for ghosts and goblins.
And their, their evidence was terrible.
Mm. It was absolutely terrible.
After one year approximately, there
was an audit done by the DIA, and
the DIA is like, "What is this? What
are you spending $21 million on?"
Right?
Holy
bro.
And they, yeah, and they shut
it down, like unbelievable.
As Eric Davis worked on that and
stuff, and it was just bonkers.
And there isn't a shred of data that
came out of that, that it's, that
it's worth a bag of beans, right?
Mm.
Uh, and so, so that... The problem
though is that that program of
course was somewhat secretive.
And, um, whenever you keep secrets on
something so strange, it's gonna look like
to the believers that, "Aha, there it is.
They were, they were hiding the
werewolves." There's a reason, there's
another reason you would wanna hide that.
It's embarrassing.
Oh, totally.
Totally.
Right?
$21 million on... Yeah.
Right.
And so, so they, um, uh, were
shut down and, and... But these
guys all start writing books.
George Knapp gets out there and starts
promoting this story, and it grabs hold.
And there are people in government
that are believers as well, not
because they've seen anything
or have any inside knowledge.
Um, they just believe it because
it's compelling sounding.
A great example of that in Canada
is a former defense minister
we had named Paul Hellyer.
Super nice guy, right?
And while he was defense minister,
he was exposed to exactly zero UFO
information, and he said that himself.
And when he, when he was out of
government, uh, somebody sent him a
copy of the book The Day After Roswell.
He read it, found it really interesting,
contacted the authors and stuff.
And they said, "Yeah, it's all true."
And he contacted a friend of his,
allegedly who was a general, said,
"It's all true, and even more."
There's no evidence for any of that.
It's just he believed the story.
Mm. And, um, so he went down that
rabbit hole, much to the chagrin of his
family in the later days of his life.
And then he got used, absolutely used
by the UFO community, especially by
Steven Greer and those folks- Mm ... in
my, um, that dragged him in, uh,
to this culty belief system, where,
um, they knew that once again they
could ride on the coattails of that
man's, uh, hard-earned credibility.
Mm. rode that credibility
trail until he died.
And, um, I don't think that Paul
ever meant to misinform anybody.
He was speaking from a point of belief.
Mm. But
unfortunately, because of his background
and his credibility, it got used.
And there is a almost a network of
credibility farmers out there that try
to suck people in and, and use their
credibility for as long as they can,
and then they just flush them down the
toilet and go on to the next target.
Mm. And they ... to make money.
They do that to, to raise
awareness for some other issue.
None of these people, not George Knapp,
not Lu- not, uh, um, Jeremy Corbell or
any of these other people involved have
ever provided a shred of evidence that
is definitive in any way, shape, or
form, and I believe that is by design.
Because the longer they keep this
going, the more money rolls in.
And, and I'm not saying
that they're not believers.
Uh, they're good businessmen, and
they're, they may also be believers.
I don't know.
I don't care if they believe it,
but I know that the, the alleged
data they're providing is not
helping any of us solve any of these
mysteries at all, and I would like to
solve them.
You t- you talk about the idea
between ufology following, um,
a theocracy and- Yeah ... sort
of re- re- religious doctrine.
Do you, are you a man of faith?
Are you a, um- No.
Are you religious in a background?
No.
No, uh, uh, background, yeah.
I mean, my family was so religious
that I'm probably my own uncle because
we were Mennonites at one point.
So, um, so, but, um, no, I, I, I
am not a believer in, in, um, God.
Um, I, I don't have any
problem with people that are.
Mm. Um, I just, I am not.
I, I think that, um, I don't
know, and, and I'm good with that.
And I think if there is a god out
there, he, she, it, or they will
be perfectly okay with me, uh,
saying that because I haven't seen
anything to, to indicate that.
Sure.
Um, but yeah, I was raised in
a very religious household.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, I was just wondering how,
when you look at the commonality
that you're pointing out between-
Yeah, yeah ... theology and
ufology- ... um, is it, um, uh, what
are the parallels that you're seeing?
Is it basically- The- ... I wanna
believe and, uh, trust me, bro?
I think that, um,
you know, a lot of people have said this,
that there is a... And I think that's
one of the reasons that I got into it,
being that I, I guess you could label me
an atheist, although I hate the label,
um, that there is this desire f- for us
all to feel like there's something more.
And, and by something more,
I mean really something more.
And I think that, um, a lot of the
ways that we approach- religion,
uh, are extraordinarily similar
to how we've approached, how some
people have approached UFOs, and
myself included to some degree
when I was really getting into it.
You know, there's this idea of
having inside knowledge, um, that
there is a higher power, that there,
there is this, uh, something that
might be, uh, looking out for you.
And I've noticed that there's a,
like, the... My, my father was, uh,
um, like almost a snake-kissing,
hand-waving Pentecostal, right?
And, um, um, s- he used to always
preach about the Book of Revelations
and the end times, the Rapture.
Sure.
Disclosure is that.
It's the same thing.
It's the same story.
It's this, this, "It's
going to happen any day.
Here are the signs.
Just believe." Mm. Right?
"Trust me." You know?
It's very, very similar.
There are people much smarter than me,
much more educated on religion that can
explain those parallels much deeper.
But there is, there is a very grifty
framework to this as well, and I think
that when you look at, uh, Admiral
Tim Gallaudet, um, the oceanographer
from the United States Navy that is
claiming, you know, that he, he knows
that there's these 9,000 underwater
alien vehicles zorching around.
Um,
what I'm about to say isn't to, um,
discredit him a- as a father and
a husband and, and an admiral, but
his belief system is such that he is
religious and that he also believes
that his daughter is being hunted
and attacked by a poltergeist, okay?
So if you already believe the esoteric,
or if I'm using that right- Mm-hmm
if you already in, in these things, um,
you're prone then to believe in these
things, and it's, and it's an easy sell.
Intelligence agencies
love people like that.
Mm. If you wanna get a message out,
if you wanna have a distraction, um,
those are the kinds of people that
you will get to speak on your behalf.
Those are the people that are targeted.
And I, I, I honestly believe that,
um, because they become... It's the
self-licking ice cream cone, right?
Sure.
You just have to get them going a
little bit and let them talk, and
they'll do all the work for you.
Mm-hmm.
So there is a, a large group of this.
You know, you look at Leslie Kean.
You know, she's one of the most
famous authors on ufology right now,
and she wrote a book called UFOs
and, uh, something like Generals
and Pilots Go on the Record on UFOs.
It's a 20-year-old book.
Mm.
Uh, at that time... And she was
one of the authors that wrote the
first article about Lue Elizondo in
2017, that New York Times article.
Mm. Um, part of that.
And if you look at her own background,
she will always sell herself as a
serious investigative journalist.
And then everyone is like, "Okay,
that's what she says." Okay.
But when you actually look at her-
Yeah ... she was living for years
with a well known UFO . Mm-hmm.
Right?
A guy that convinced, convincing people
that they were being abducted by aliens.
And, and she has these beliefs that she
can commune with the dead and, you know.
So this group of people
already are pre-positioned
with this, this set of beliefs.
So, you know, when I'm investigating
fires and explosions, if I approach,
um, my, you know, an arson investigation
with the idea that it might have been
started with a, by a poltergeist,
how serious are the courts gonna
take me, you know, when I go at that?
Or to put it more down to earth, if I
approach an arson investigation with
any preconceived notion other than
knowing physics, we've got problems.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
So I don't mind that people believe in
ghosts or God or whatever, but, um, we
have to be able to separate that from
this very important task of trying to
discern what it is people are seeing.
I- if we attribute all of the sightings
to aliens or non-human intelligence or
demons or ghosts, goblins, and witches,
we're probably going to be missing out
on the discovery of actual phenomena that
are super important and relevant to us
in some other scientific capacity, right?
Not to say, again, that it can't be ET.
I'm just saying that we should not go
in with these preconceived notions.
We should, uh, uh, go after this
with a rigorous scientific approach,
and, um, and, and be extraordinary
disciplined, uh, about that.
I, I know I'm repeating myself,
but it is... I think that's,
that's just what we've gotta do.
And, um, and we'll, we'll get
some real answers if we do that.
I, I think you've, uh... I, I think
you hit the nail on the head, honestly.
And yeah, there was some repetition, but
it's important to be, to be in there.
Um, interesting about, uh, what you're
saying about the people of faith.
Religious backgrounds can be the
easiest ones to be the self licking
ice cream cone to convert, right?
Right.
Uh, I was hunting, elk hunting
last season, uh, with a friend.
Nice.
He's ex-CIA spook, and that was
one of the... One of his roles
was in, uh, generating assets
and, uh, converting people.
Right.
And- Agent builder ... an agent builder.
And, and, and you look at-
Yep ... um, uh, pressure points,
and that's one of them, right?
And you can, you can look at a
person's faith or background.
What I thought was interesting, why
I asked you, 'cause you brought it
up, and as well Bartlett in his- uh,
talking with these two people who were
clearly, uh, they, they were clearly
believers, uh, on his podcast there.
He- both of them says, "Well, yeah,
no, we, I've got faith," or, "I'm heavy
in faith, and here's what I believe."
And it's- Yeah ... I, I'm curious, and
I mean this is gonna be outside the
realm of what you study, but I'm, I'm
just curious what it is about the human
condition that seems compelled or drawn
to this narrative under so many different,
so many different labels or ideas.
What- It's an awesome... It's, it's
not just a good question,
it's an awesome question.
Awesome in the truest sense of the word
awesome, because that's a huge question.
I, I had to go through this, uh, with
myself, um, at some point, and I, I
kinda felt like I was leaving a cult.
So when I was totally into this
stuff, at some point I had to back
out, and then I asked myself, "Self,"
"... why do I believe what I believe?"
Right.
Right?
And I started digging into that, and
it's, there are so many factors to this.
You know, there's all kinds
of environmental factors, you
know, the way you grow up.
My parent, well, at least my
father was super religious.
Mm-hmm.
And, and so surrounded by that.
So it, it sort of, when I, when I
walked away from the church, in a sense,
it leaves a, a gaping hole in you,
something that, you know, you wanna...
You don't even realize you want
filled, but there's that, that
need for something more, I think.
There's the, the secret knowledge
idea of UFOs that was so compelling.
When my brother and I had our podcast,
we, at some point, when we were still
really into it, we realized that our
great mystery, the thing that we loved
hunting for, was about to be over because
it was all gonna be exposed as true,
and we were, we were depressed by that.
Mm. Because
w- because we didn't want
that m- that hunt to end.
Right.
And, and so that's, it just hit me
like a slimy fish in the face that, um,
that, that, that desire to search is a,
a massive part of the human condition-
Mm ... to keep looking for something more.
And, um, I had to look at myself
pretty hard in the mirror, which
is, which is never good, um, uh,
to, to figure out why, why that was.
But there... You know, and then today
in the age of misinformation and
disinformation, whichever way you
wanna describe that or use those terms,
there is so much of that right now.
Um, you know, you've got some CIA friends,
and so do I, and, you know, when you
start learning from these people about
how information is used to manipulate-
Mm
it's
sad how easy it is to manipulate people.
And, and I felt that I was being
led down a garden path by some
of these folks at, at one point.
So I, I had the, the privilege of
shame to, to run me out of this for a
while so I could get some perspective.
But yeah, I think that there's,
um, endless- Um, reasons
why people get into this.
But specifically right now, in
the last 10 years, we have been
fed ufology with a fire hose.
And there's so much of it coming at
us that when you're given that much
and you've got these, these people of
authority telling you there's something
there, it's, it becomes too difficult
to discern what's true and what isn't,
so y- you end up making a judgment call.
Mm. And
I- most of us tend to make the,
choose the path of least resistance.
And so if it sounds good and feels
good and, and you like what you're
hearing, you, you tend to believe it.
And, um, God damn, I wanna
believe that stuff, right?
But, um, but I need more.
I don't want to believe, I
wanna know.
Mm. You know?
So you've, you've got
the... It's interesting.
I find when people walk
away from something.
Like if- Yeah ... if people go
through a breakup, a separation-
Right ... or they wanna quit a job or
whatever it might be, m- oftentimes
they need to demonize the other side.
Right.
And they need to look and say,
"Well, I'm leaving her because,
man, she was just a demon.
She was terrible," right?
Right.
And only- Ex the . Right.
And maybe- Yeah ... maybe you
guys are just who you both are
and you gotta go different ways.
Mm-hmm.
But oftentimes- Yep ... in order for
people to inside and mentally get around-
Yep ... the reason why they're leaving
the job, it's not because I'm bad, it's
because the job's bad and I'm gonna find
something else, or whatever it might be.
Um, it, you talk about the
desire to search and, you know-
Yeah ... searching for, for answers.
Y- you really haven't changed
that desire to search.
You're just searching- Right
... differently and in a, in sort of
a different direction- ... while
being very conscious of trying
not to demonize the other side.
B- but I can, uh, and you can tell me
if I'm wrong, but I can sense there's,
there's a underlying, uh, sense of, um,
feeling duped and trying to, uh- Yeah
um- Yeah.
I was duped.
Okay.
Uh- Yep.
I was.
And this, and then you talk about the,
um, the manip- the manip... Excuse me.
I can talk.
It's okay.
You, you talk about the manipulation
aspect- Yeah ... of it, and I think
that's a r- a very real side of things.
We have so much information
coming in on everything, right?
Yeah.
I mean, n- not just ufology, but
everything coming in, that in order
for people to step back and be able
to make a decision as to what they
actually believe, I mean, is that AI?
Was that something that
w- actually happened?
Like, what's my framework
for reality anymore?
I think, I think a lot of people- Just
through the mass amounts of information
that we're being fed are becoming, um...
What was that Yuri Russian fellow who was,
uh, like 30 years ago, he was, uh, doing
an interview about, um, disenfranchising
people, essentially how to manipulate a,
a, a entire population, feed them so much.
Oh.
Y- who am I talking about?
Yuri something rings a bell.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I think we're kind- I think that's
kind of the state that we're in right now.
Like how do we know- Right ... what's real
and what's not, and how do we move forward
and... Science does not ask you to believe
something.
Science asks us to ask more questions.
Mm. And ufology asks us to believe.
So hold
on.
You don't trust the science?
No, no.
I do, I do do trust the-
Just trust the science.
No, science is a constant
process of asking more questions.
That's right.
Right.
I- And that's, this is where people
say o- often, um, that, well,
science is, is just another belief.
Mm.
It isn't.
Set of questions, and you can keep
asking those questions from different
positions, different angles, different
viewpoints, and, and get a aggregate
of knowledge on any given topic.
And then you can start pulling that apart
and see what that evidence tells you.
Um, and, and you know, I, I've
investigated fires where, you
know, you walk into the room
and you think it's obvious.
Mm.
And then burn patterns and, and y-
you know, the burn patterns don't look
quite right, but they kind of point
in one direction and, and then you
realize that, well, the temperature
reached 650 degrees Celsius in there,
so therefore at that temperature, the
world of physics as we know it breaks
down and burn patterns don't mean squat.
Mm. And so you physical, physical evidence
and, and this is no different, right?
It's, it's going in and asking questions
and never, never should these people
that are feeding us information
be asking us to believe anything.
They shouldn't do that.
It's disingenuous, and it's
misleading, and it's leading.
Mm-hmm.
And that's not... It is not fair.
They're, they're playing with people's
emotions, and I think that there's a
lot of rotten actors in this topic.
And, um, I'll, I will say too that
some of these folks that are telling
stories that are former Pentagon
officials might have a very good
reason for telling stories, but we're
not privy to whatever that reason is.
So I'm not sitting here saying this
person's a bold-faced liar, and that's it.
We both know that intelligence people
in the right positions will lie to you.
That's ... Sure ... that's
something they have to do.
And so there could be-
It's a part of their job.
That's right.
There could be very, um, valid reasons,
whether they're moral or ethical or
not is not the point because when you
approach stuff from that perspective
of national defense, morals and
ethics often have no, uh, place.
Mm. It's just cold, hard fact of
what they're trying to accomplish.
Mm. situation.
This is our mission.
This is how we're gonna
execute it, plain and simple.
Masterful.
Right.
Yeah, exactly right.
Yeah.
So, um,
I, um, good catch.
So, so I, I see that, um,
that could be a, a situation.
Um, you know, there, there's, there's
no reason that I can completely take
off the table that somewhere in, in the
US government someplace there isn't,
um, hard data proving that we've been
visited or there's been some crash.
But these people telling these
stories that there's, like,
thousands of alien crashes, you
know, Bob Lazar saw nine saucers.
Like, this becomes exceptionally
difficult to believe with no evidence
other than the story that there could
be, you know, um, aliens visiting
on such a grand scale that somehow,
um, the men in black are out there.
And I guess they got their
little red flashy things and
they- ... they wipe them up.
But it doesn't, it doesn't add up.
You know?
There's, there's, um, a lot
of people looking at the sky.
There's a lot of scientists out
there studying every single day
in very serious ways to search for
extraterrestrial intelligence, and
every little blip they see, they report.
Every little question they have,
they, they feed the public and
they ask, you know, other people
to come and look at it as well.
That's, that's how real science will work.
But like I say, like, it's, it's
impossible to take the coverup off
the table entirely, but you know,
when you, when you look at what
President Obama said recently- Right
people got very ... And, you know, they
said ... You know, he said, "Aliens are
real," but he was, he was clearly speaking
about the grand size of the universe
in the same way that we just were.
Mm.
Right?
And at least that's the way I took it.
Um, when people said, "Well, why did, um,
Trump say that what he did was release
classified, classified information?"
Well, that's an easy one.
First of all, there's two things
there that don't sit right immediately
in that interview, is that Donald
Trump hadn't seen what Obama said.
Mm-hmm.
He was taking the order.
But had he actually heard what Obama
said ... Um, see, in that interview, he,
he gives the impression that he hadn't.
Mm. But then he says he
gave classified information.
The only thing classified in that
statement by Obama that could possibly
be classified isn't the existence of
aliens, because how many people have
come out there, and David Grusch and
everybody else said that aliens are real.
Nothing's ever happened.
It's the fact that he mentioned
Area 51 and the fact that he
said what is or isn't at Area 51.
Mm. When ... classified location at
that level, it is illegal to discuss
what goes on or doesn't go on, period.
Mm. That's the ... that I could see
that was relevant, um, with what
Donald Trump was saying about that.
That's, that's my-
That's my theory on that.
Makes sense.
Um, that they, they take that
serious, that, you know, that kind
of thing really seriously, so, uh-
Well, we've covered a lot
of ground in this podcast.
Yeah.
Is there anything that we haven't talked
about that we should be talking about?
Well, I do think that
it would be nice to do
maybe this again and, and get into that
framework of manipulation that is, that
is happening, um, from the more famous
talking heads out there, and to try and
show that, to, to give people a little
tool to use maybe to help discern, um,
fact from fiction as much as possible.
Yeah.
But what I guess I could say is that
if you're being asked to believe
something on faith, don't, right?
Like, hold... Save that for church.
Mm. But, uh, on this topic, if, if
you are a person out there that takes
this topic seriously, and you...
maybe someone out there has seen
something and they believe that they
saw something, that's, that's good.
That's fine.
But, um, don't be pulled
down a rabbit hole here.
Don't, don't be, um... Don't allow
anybody to, to tell you something without
solid, verifiable, testable evidence.
Um, we're, we're, we're
currently being asked to believe,
and that's just not right.
That's not how this stuff
rolls out in real life.
Mm.
Well- That's my
two...
Uh- I like it.
I like it, and I think we're gonna
have to, uh, talk some more after the
next tranche comes out and, uh- Yeah,
for sure ... it would, it'd be cool if
something comes out when all of a sudden-
W- ... we have to do a complete 180 and
say, "Okay, hold on." But, um- Well, it's
not even a, it's not even a 180.
It's if, if something comes out,
and very well could, it's like,
"Goddamn, there it is." Mm. Awesome.
You know?
Yeah.
It's, it's like the... Because we're
not... You know, you and I aren't
sitting here saying it's impossible.
It's that that evidence hasn't
reached that, that litmus test yet.
It hasn't, um, it hasn't
crossed the, the Rubicon, right?
Yeah.
You know?
So that's all.
That's all it is.
And, and people can come and
make whatever claim they like.
And I, I have friends that believe
all kinds of crazy stuff, and I'm
just waiting to see the evidence.
That's all, you know?
It's-
Well, Rocky, thank you so much for
being on the Silvercore Podcast.
I'm looking forward to our next chat.
Right on, man.
That
was great.
Thanks.