Philosophy's Violent Sacred with Dr. Duane Armitage

In this episode of Chasing Leviathan, PJ and Dr. Duane Armitage discuss the implicit violence of Nietzsche's and Heidegger's philosophical work, how Nietzsche and Heidegger view the relationship between power and identity, and how their philosophical systems have led to our current postmodern debates. In looking back at Nietzsche and Heidegger, Dr. Armitage also points out the dangers of tribalism in our increasingly divisive political moment. 

For a deep dive into Dr. Duane Armitager's work, check out his book: Philosophy's Violent Sacred: Heidegger and Nietzsche through Mimetic Theory 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/1611863872 

Check out our blog on www.candidgoatproductions.com 

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. 

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. 

Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

What is Chasing Leviathan?

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

pj_wehry:
hello and welcome to chasing leviathan i'm here with dr dane armitage sociate professor at scranton university for philosophy and dr armitage wonderful to have you here today

duane_armitage:
thank you very much pleasure

pj_wehry:
yeah and we're today were here when we're talking about your book philosophy is violence sacred and so tell us a little bit about what motivated you to write this book

duane_armitage:
well a couple of things so it was in i think about the spring of twenty seventeen i got really interested in and this is unrelated to what ended up happening in the book

pj_wehry:
uh

duane_armitage:
atonement theories

pj_wehry:
h

duane_armitage:
of christ you know why christ had to die you know with various you know penal substitution and gerard i knew had a different take on the atonement okay and then i'm also interested you know unrelated and what i saw is some kind of shift politically in our culture and i was starting to notice the things on c n n and fox news and students were coming to me talking like this it was as if they had read the postman and thinkers that i was studying in grad school like the outrageous ones and they were just they were i don't know regurgitating this stuff not really having thought through it i'm thinking oh my god something has changed here where students

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
or this post modern philosophy you know the philosophy that was dominant in in france and german an don't know mid twentieth century is now becoming main stream and it happened right around twenty fourteen twenty fifth team really you know coincided with trump being the nominee of the republican omen and so i thought it's interesting so i was investigating more about post modernism and then i found you know in gerard a kind of nice i don't know response and critique of post modernism so it was kind of a confluence of things there yeah

pj_wehry:
i think you mentioned it was that this book is the fruit of a recent obsession

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
which began the summer of two thousand twelve

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
and so talk to us little bit about that now you start off the book by defining things like post modernism and continental philosophy and you even talk about how those things are you use them interchangeably in the book so can you give

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
us a little bit more about that and then um and how they're used in the book

duane_armitage:
yeah so what i mean by the term post modernism and when i say this usually i'm debating other academics and things like what do you mean by post modernism and i'll give this definition and they'll go okay yeah that sounds right

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
and

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
you know and this really

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
is and i actually think post modernism is this huge term but it actually is pretty simple it's very simply if you take modernism to mean you know modern philosophy is you know dat card con the enlightment thinker rationalism rational philosophy post modernism is post rationalism post reason that is it's a critique of rationality that's that's what every post modern thinker has in common now why they critique it how they cutiuet their response to it differs slightly but it's pretty pretty much that that wholesale crutakue of reason which begins begins with cant a little bit of character guard mark is in there but the really start it really gets you know going i would say systematically if you can use that term with nita okay

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
and with german thinkers so nice uh well let me say this what post modernism ended up being was the french reception in i don't know after world war two of german thinking in the late nineteenth twentieth century that was critical of and so nice and hydogar in particular okay but that was that was going on since comtokayum but really one more thing i'll just say about this what's use this post modernism now or what people tend to think of as a post modernism or post modern post modern thinkers would be the thinking happened as i said in france after world war two when when philosopher are thinking what the hell happened after after the holy cast what explains this how can we

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
prevent this but what explains it and so this radical victimization that happened with the not season with you know the mark as what happened and reason and absolute truth became the sort of target and so they used i think these french thinkers co h darry do used start to some extent the bevoir used the critiques in nice and hediger to criticize rationality and that's their sort of answer and you'll you'll see this eve where is that essentialism reason absolute truth whatever you want to call it categories rational categories are the problem and so if you can just get rid of those then you'll have a sort of piece because that's precisely what happened when wrong in the twentieth century was that everyone thought they had the truth and then tried to ram it down people's throats so that's it pretty much what post modernism is it's it's got that

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
anti victimization ethic and it's a critique of reason

pj_wehry:
yeah yea even as you mentioned that are you familiar with the hitleburg conference between hans or gotimerjacue der and laculabart

duane_armitage:
vaguely

pj_wehry:
barth i'm

duane_armitage:
vaguely

pj_wehry:
sure yeah um and that's just

duane_armitage:
oh

pj_wehry:
really interesting to me because you know that's it's the

duane_armitage:
yes

pj_wehry:
three of them in conversation talking about they were at the time they were discussing censoring nats writings and the three of them

duane_armitage:
m

pj_wehry:
came to talk about it and uh of course dared talks about his use of de construction which of course

duane_armitage:
hm

pj_wehry:
he took from hediger like that term and

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
made it his own

duane_armitage:
yep

pj_wehry:
and a lot of it was him talking about rejecting that um m so like

duane_armitage:
oh

pj_wehry:
i'm curious as you talk here about this critique like regards critique of hydagerand how hydeger has this like implicit this violence meeting violence if

duane_armitage:
hm

pj_wehry:
if that's what i would think of but um what responsibility do we have to appropriate but also to reconstruct but also to build again using hydrogrs thinking because

duane_armitage:
oh

pj_wehry:
viously we don't want to go down the path that hyde went down right like that's like

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
but he was obviously also a brilliant thinker

duane_armitage:
yeah okay that's a really good question i think it does have an answer but i wanted to say before i forget as you mentioned

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
darry dad took de construction from hydrogar hydrogaactually

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
took from luther martin luther and the reformation and

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
luther was very critical of rationality he called reason satan's horror

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
because he thought that part of the reason why catha

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
ism got so bound up with you know a works

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
based theology and you know earning salvation luther thought was because of its relationship to aristotle and greek thinking

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
and rationality so critique of reason really is really begins with martin luther and so an hydagerhad this obsession with luther

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
in the early i guess nineteen twenties studied with a famous luther and thinker named rudolph botmonmarbourgh anyway so that that's already in that system so hydiger is bringing that out of luther that de construction which meant to de tangle faith from reason and then hydger does

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
something else with it but your question about i guess what can be salvaged in hydeger's thinking is that is that my understanding what you said correctly

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
what's our responsibility to salvage it too like

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
i mean because the reaction and i mean i'm sure you you're familiar with is any time you talk to continental philossiper and it comes up that hediger is an important thinker people he's a nazi right like that's like

duane_armitage:
yeah i'm actually reading

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
about that now gerard has

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
this great this great line about hediger and ndnosismhe

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
says look the only the big problem martin hediger was

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
in his responsibility two for and you know thinking of naciism is that he whitewashed nice you know

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
hide red niche and took out all the anti christian anti jewish stuff in nice and focused on niches metaphysics he made high made nice the last metaphysician but according to draw i completely agree with you out here that if there's any philosophy that is the backbone and structure to national socialism it's nicianism okay so the real the ideology

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
of naciism now it's not all nichiism but the structure is in there and the nazis red nic they tried to read hydegar they picked up hydegar and hey go we have no idea what this

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
is talking about but

pj_wehry:
right

duane_armitage:
nita this stuff is good so i think hitler gifted muselini on his birthday

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
the collected works of nita or something like this nice sister was very much involved with national socialism anyway but the answer to your question is i don't think in hyder's thinking although it's there i think hydeger the person is more of a problem than hydiger's thought although there is

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
elements of

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
what's some elements of national socialism but not the most pernicious parts um in hydregres thinking but what i see is really insightful about hydregres hinking is it is critique of i guess like got a term reductionism the reduction of the meaning of things to one meaning so what you see you know you see that now you saw it maybe in the past twenty years in terms of scientism or reductive naturalis the idea that science can account for everything that the physical world is all that you know that we can know and you know and i think hydregar gives a really damning critique of that and shows why that there's problems with that um that you know there are multiple meanings to the meaning of being and any time you use the word just while human beings are just animals we're

pj_wehry:
right

duane_armitage:
just our nero chemistry there's a problem there and then and i think hybigeris right about

pj_wehry:
hm

duane_armitage:
that so that criticism um but one more thing i wanted to say the stuff in hydegar that is really not cy is the focus at least for a certain period in the nineteen thirties on the return to the soil kind of collectivism based on blutanboden you know i say blutanbblood and soil um

pj_wehry:
hm

duane_armitage:
and i did think and so there is this this criticism of the enlightenment and overly rationalistic thinking that wants to make everything universal and not focus on the particle or and the earthiness of things and that you know that was you know taken up by nausiism as well so

pj_wehry:
yeah yeah

duane_armitage:
i'd say

pj_wehry:
absolutely

duane_armitage:
answer your question

pj_wehry:
good

duane_armitage:
is the anti reductionism stuff an hydegar that's the most i think interesting

pj_wehry:
yes yeah yeah and and so and this is kind

duane_armitage:
oh

pj_wehry:
of what came out in in that hidleburgh conference and it just even as we're you're talking about critiquing him but also using him because you say that in the introduction here like just the answer is not to just censor people right

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
it's not just like because that was the hat you know with the holocaust adeverything else they were talking about just getting rid of the books

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
and so and even today people are like shouldn't should we not read him should we just take him out of courses and stuff like that and so um thank you just i'm obviously i'm processing as i go here the when you when you talk about the violence that's inherent though in their own critique of violence what are

duane_armitage:
hm

pj_wehry:
you talking about there what is the violence that gerard finds that you find in play in nice and hydagar

duane_armitage:
well okay so nice is much easier

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
nicyuknownica

pj_wehry:
that's true it's

duane_armitage:
thinks

pj_wehry:
pretty

duane_armitage:
that

pj_wehry:
explicit yeah

duane_armitage:
yeah i mean any time nita

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
says okay um let's see there's a great quote that i think summarizes where summarizes where nice is coming from he says anybody who who subscribes to morality passes sentence on existence and that's interestin it it's in the knocclass it's in his unpublished notes but i think that summarizes nicely niches criticism of of western culture and why he niche thinks that essentially vile is a part of life and if you're going to have a philosophy that affirms life because tat's what nice is all about pro life unconditional affirmation of life what does not kill me makes me stronger on more fat or the love of your faith you have to embrace all of life you know and that includes the violent as well as the peaceful you know the murderous the rapacious all these different things about life that are all they all need to be affirmed so you know when i'm and this in class i talk about

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
ways in which i see

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
various post modern versions of this miss niches point like for example what was the second star wars movie that just came out return of last jet or something like this remember you this one it was sort

pj_wehry:
i

duane_armitage:
of

pj_wehry:
think i did i've tried to forget about him i'll be honest

duane_armitage:
it was terrible it was horrible and here's why it was horrible so the whole movie was about yeah we need to embrace this kind of affirmation of both light and darkness joy you know and violence and ll these things

pj_wehry:
yep

duane_armitage:
nobody would say though yeah you need a little victimization you need a little oppression

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
you need a little persecution but that's

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
precisely what it is saying we need to affirm

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
all of

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
humanity all of our actions you know and so in the animal kingdom the animal are kind and loving but they're also very violent and nita thinks we're just animals in blazers and so

pj_wehry:
okay

duane_armitage:
the violence anita is nita is saying look this is what it means to be a human being it means to be violent and peaceful at me to be fulling it needs to be overflowing with life and power and sometimes that's expressed violently the only time we call it violence because we want a pass sentence on it so when we get morality is all about saying we're going to you know excise aspect of existence out and focus on this one now i happen to think that that's good i think niches

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
not you know i mean

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
it

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
he has things like where he says for example in the anti christ one of last books he wrote let the weak and the ill constituted die let them die off you know and it's our job to help them to do so you know compassion this idea of preserving what's weaken and sickly is horrible you know it's anti life so the answer to the first part you know where's the violence in nice it's it's all over nita thinks that we need to affirm violence now dard has this line i forget where it is where he says something like will to power in nice at the end of the day is violence because you know it's mostly expressed in violence but um and in hydregar

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
it's a little

pj_wehry:
okay

duane_armitage:
bit more complicated in the nineteen thirties hydeger was very interested in the h in this idea of struggle you know nancy term hitler my struggle mind

pj_wehry:
right

duane_armitage:
comphydreger saw a kind of tension and struggle at the heart of reality of course this is this is totally not say in a sense that you know

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
being an you know greatness comes about through struggle and resistance and overcoming resistance it's also very nician too so nice

pj_wehry:
right

duane_armitage:
has

pj_wehry:
right

duane_armitage:
this again in the anti christ what is what is

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
what is good all that increases will to power what's bad all that makes you weak what's happiness when we overcome resistance okay and so hidragras reading nichi ten thirties and it was sort of a confluence of things when he joined the nazi party when you know but i

pj_wehry:
right

duane_armitage:
would say in hydregra you find this as well namely that violence is a part of being it's a part of reality that needs to be properly understood now what unites i think all of these these thinkers and why i think it's it's it's a little ingenuous for post modernism to adopt this is that once you critique rationality you have a hard time arguing against these kind of things you have a hard time arguing that you know you know judging that anything is good or anything is bad kind of than luther winded wound up in the same problem by the way because he was so critical of rational category is being applied to god and at the end of the day luther had to say that luther says somewhere lisitly god wills sin and wills evil because it's very bizarre but all

pj_wehry:
yes

duane_armitage:
this is sort of connected in

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
a weird way you

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
know so

pj_wehry:
well and that's

duane_armitage:
because i

pj_wehry:
a

duane_armitage:
was so afraid o god

pj_wehry:
i was just going to say i mean you know we were talking about those ties and i've heard and i'm not a nice scaler by any means i've read a few of his books but um that hitler obviously like it was a pretty shallow reading of nice but still like when you talk about the week dying off no and you talk about the best science of the day i mean actually it's not in quotes the best science of the day was you was ugenicprougenix right i mean and that's not a german thing that's into the

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
us like it's so easy to see this very potent um kind of brewing cauldron of nastiness that became natzynasism

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
like that all i'll make sense right like and so yeah even as you're you're talking through this it's just the conflence of ideas the way that darwinism was being accepted and you know is today accepted rightfully so in biology right but not it was being applied socially um

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
and gad

duane_armitage:
no that's an see that's the thing that is in nice that social darwinism is in nice now the difference i would say the biggest difference between nichinism and hitlerism and nasiism is the

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
emphasis on the collective in nice you have an emphasis on the individual niche was very wary of group think of collectivism all the german nationalism of an

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
he was very philosemitic he was against antesemetism however the metaphysics that nice presents is the only one that could give sense to what nautiism is talking about if you're looking

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
at the world in terms of power and strength uh it's not that hard to get natiism from that but nita was aware of that same time so i don't think nic's thinking is nosy but i think it's the closest thing that

pj_wehry:
no

duane_armitage:
we have that makes sense um yeahs

pj_wehry:
right there's that that distinction is important yeah i know i appreciate

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
you saying that

duane_armitage:
one of the things nice is very very very critical of the value system in the west namely what we would call probably now social justice he calls it equality we would call it social justice gerard calls it concern for victims or the antivictimization ethic you know and so and this is sort of the throghline i found in gerard nita and post modernism namely all right so post modernism is a critique of rationality what's left when you create rationality power that's it that's how if you can understand understand the world rational you have to understand it in terms of power and the nicest point is and this is he says this all over but most explicitly in the genealogy of more critique reason power is left power byfercates obviously into those who have it and those who don't have it so strength and weakness right now what nita does is he says why should we we just have this assumption that we need side with the weak why the only reason we as we side with the weak is two thousand years of catechesis in judea christianity there's

pj_wehry:
yah

duane_armitage:
absolutely no justification for that right

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
why wouldn't we side with the wak let's side with the strong and nica does advocate a kind of philosophy of virtue virtue meaning strength and power and and it's interesting in all the western traditions prior to the jews particularly greek thinking it was all an emphasis on strength and master and power and courage this this idea of compassion and mercy we take it so for granted we think the rest of the world you know this was just in the air all the time it wasn't this was this was the unique invention i'm getting from gerard of the jews and then ou know universalized with the christians and that's why gerard says nica saw this he just disagreed with it so jerd says somewhere that niche s the greatest theologian in the last two hundred years

pj_wehry:
uh

duane_armitage:
becaus really got the essence of christianity

pj_wehry:
ah

duane_armitage:
and so that's the thing and that's that's i would say that moved from the critique of reason to the emphasis on power as the best way to understand the world and then the bifurcation of power into groups strong and weak and then that gets re played post modern system so post modernism is with it up with nice up to their critique of reason power group identity right strength and weakness

pj_wehry:
right

duane_armitage:
post modernism just sides with the weak and nita says well why would you do that there's absolutely no justin cation for that

pj_wehry:
yes

duane_armitage:
but of course you know a lot of the stuff that we see in modern politics identity politics the the gender battles and the race battles and the now whatever however you want to

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
cut the

pj_wehry:
class

duane_armitage:
cloth intersect

pj_wehry:
battles

duane_armitage:
oh

pj_wehry:
yeah all that

duane_armitage:
ah

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
yea and that's that's explicitly but that's all there really is to post modernism it's just that sort of step

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
and that's why a lot of people say i think there's a there's a thinker named stephen hicks philosopher wrote a book that says look post modernism is just no marxism and he's right i think i think he's right about that because mark says all right the history of the world's history of class conflict reason goes out the door reason is the result of our economic site ation says this in the german ideology and so you have a critique of reason in terms of power power power by forcats in terms of bourgeisie and proletariat or owners and workers and then you side with the proletariat and and the other thing is mark says at the end of the comet manifesto we want a violent revolution of the proletariat you know and so there's really no reason why you know there's really no reason with what with way post monorism lays out the value its value system and its metaphysics that we should ever strive for something like the beloved community of martin luther king or something like that which you know i don't know i guess i'm naive

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
but i thought we were still on the same page and about five years

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
ago like for example i was saying well isn't it good if we all could get along and we all could have this beloved community that king talks about where we could reach a kind of darry say a color blind society now in a qualified sense but

pj_wehry:
right

duane_armitage:
somebody

pj_wehry:
right

duane_armitage:
said somebody said to me that's races to say that i thought wait what you know now i don't agree that that's races i simply

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
rejected i think if you accept the post modern metaphysics then maybe it's races but i don't think it's race so it went from it's interesting it went from being the ideal to naive and then overnight to being not just naive but also offensive and violent and race so this is just an example of the way it plays that i'm sort rambling now but i hope this i'll make

pj_wehry:
no

duane_armitage:
sense

pj_wehry:
no i love this

duane_armitage:
okay

pj_wehry:
yeah i live for the ramble so uh

duane_armitage:
okay

pj_wehry:
even what you talk about i remember reading co for the first time and i'd

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
gotten history of madness and in the introduction he says i am pursuing you gonna butcher this but i'm pursuing this quest under a nician son

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
and literally

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
what's the what is the dominant concept in foco when you talk about the french reception of german thought i mean the

duane_armitage:
there

pj_wehry:
dominant

duane_armitage:
you go

pj_wehry:
conception is foco is power so

duane_armitage:
it's power

pj_wehry:
yes

duane_armitage:
and you're exactly right and a critique of reason and

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
co doesn't put it that way he puts it as a critique of the category and essences and you know because the problem for foco is he says categories

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
marginalize they exclude you know and

pj_wehry:
yes

duane_armitage:
there you have this anti victim ethic and the critique of reason bundled nightly nicely into what's called anti essentialism and so feminism runs off that you know you know that distinction ween sex and gender you know this is the idea that gender

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
categories of now we even talk about it as you know categories such as male and female these are oppressive but that's the same idea that reason ipso facto esses and in order to be anti victim and anti oppression you have to criticize reason and so that's right in foco so in the

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
history of madness or history of sexuality or whatever what's the madness and civilization history of sexuality another boo where he talks these categories that seek to normalize certain standards of sanity and insanity

pj_wehry:
es

duane_armitage:
or in sexuality sexual he talks about bourges proletariat sexuality

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
in the history of sexuality but it's the same idea that

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
the

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
rational category itself or the essence of something is violent and victimizing episode fact now i don't agree with that but that comes right out of hydagar and right out of nice these ind o things that reason is just a mere guys for power if you accept that metaphysics then then everything sort of follows from that

pj_wehry:
and you you mentioned when you were talking to one of your students i belie s one of your students who is talking about you can't you even use the term color blind obviously

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
that's qualified right like i mean we don't want to eliminate difference and i know that's not what you're saying right that's the qualification

duane_armitage:
right

pj_wehry:
the i had somewhere is going with foco and this when i first read it i think i was kind of on board with you where i was like i was like oh that's who would want that i don't see that he says in history of sexuality says politics is war by other means you know flips the war is politics by other and so he goes politics

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
is war by other means and

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
about two thousand fourteen two thousan fifteen and i think we've all felt this shift in our culture all a sudden i was like that's what he meant that

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
is what i feel like all sudden politics no longer become about hey we're working together to create something now it's just it's become a battle field and it's anyways

duane_armitage:
yeah no and we even people even talk like that like we're trying to empower people you know and give you know and empower voices and things like that and even even that way we talk assumes post modern idea like we used to assume that this also goes back to your point about free speech it's the same thing we used to assume that everyone

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
was a rational agent and you know we could transcend our biases and our emotion these things and come to some rational decision now that seems to just be thought of as a relic of the past that we could actually be unbiased and so therefore we have to stack everything equally because we can't assume that anybody could rast they come to their own decisions and rationally come to the truth right and so that's why we french we censor speech as well because speech is just an active power it's not about you know coming to the truth and dialogue or anything like but you know back to your original question about what's why i wrote the book is i find this stuff so frustrating is because i'll be in being an argument with somebody or a debate mostly what students

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
and there are fifteen yards down the down the line on assumptions you know

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
i didn't even agree with with the hundreds of assumptions that they've asked me to agree with in order to get

pj_wehry:
right

duane_armitage:
to their position so and assumptions are very simple that rationality is you know de bunked or it's just a guys of power the whole post modern metaphysic and i think if you don't accept that um then you know you wind up with very much different conclusions very different conclusions so i'm a big advocate of free speech of rational dialogue just basic enlightenment principles that i think we i used to agree on what the country was founded on the idea of the rational individual the idea that we can come to a consensus that that objective truth exists now i feel like some people try to say that that's a conservative position it's not i don't

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
think it is i think it's a very moderate position because i think

pj_wehry:
h oh

duane_armitage:
in my book it's it's my book is a criticism of the left end and the right because i think both what i criticized in both both sides is is the power metaphysics and the collectivism the idea

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
that you would be a part of a tribe or tribal thinking and that's what

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
i found so interesting in dart is that dard thinks that tribal thinking is ipso facto always vile that group formation ipso facto we form groups or we tend to form groups unless we're very careful about it violently and it's almost impossible to have a group without having a scape goat or another so that's

pj_wehry:
ah

duane_armitage:
what i think is so pernicious about modern politics is that it's it's

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
following the religious formula of post modernism and of what gerard would call religion in the in the majority sense

pj_wehry:
yeah i mean when you talk about the scape goat i mean there are ah i think that the every

duane_armitage:
yes

pj_wehry:
day usage i hear are dog whistles it like there are just certain phrases that people use to get people mad on their side regardless of what has actually happened what actually matters and so

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
i think that's something that you know i think there's a general collective anxiety and i think a lot of it is tied to this just this transition into a a battle field on the political side

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
but i think it's a great transition point because i really want to hear um your explanation and just have you talked through gerard his concept of the scape goat his concept of violence and tribalism and memasism general and how

duane_armitage:
okay

pj_wehry:
that works yeah

duane_armitage:
ah um it there was one other thing i was going to say and i can't remember what it was but i didn't know if it was a good seguete or not i guess i could come back to it uh oh yeah remind me i'll come back to something

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
at post modern is about post

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
modernism at the end of this about politics and post modernism but i want to get to the gerard thing because think talking about that first would make more sense

pj_wehry:
okay

duane_armitage:
gerard as i see it he has and there's a little here's the book by the way there's a little i think it's a ten

pj_wehry:
yes

duane_armitage:
page introduction to gerard's thinking i had to find my own copy laying

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
around

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
there are what i see is three c cs he has and each sort you know scholars gerard scholars you know break this up sometime the three four and you see a development in his thinking but early on the first thesis that he had or first first discovery that he had was mimetic desire so my medic desire that's the first one and i'll talk about hat in a second the second is the scape goat religion and the scape goat and the third is the jewish an christian de construction of the scape goat okay so mimetic desire this scape goat and then jude christian christianity is de construction of it the first one mimetic desire and that's in one of his first books he discovered this he was a literary literature professor in grad school and read the novels and he found a common theme namely that desire in these novels seems to be so he founded at least first in novels that desire seemed to be mimetic and what means by that is that misis just means imitative so that we get our desires not from within but from without we copy our desires i mean the

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
whole you know advertising idea is based

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
on you know mark ing and advertising things like this

pj_wehry:
u

duane_armitage:
that is we want things because we see other

pj_wehry:
uh

duane_armitage:
people modeling

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
them right and it's kind of impossible not to say this once you once you're aware of this you know the whole world runs on this capital runs on this you know i think

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
george carlin has some somewhere in one of his bits that you know one of the commandments thou shall not covet coveting is good it keeps the economy going you know

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
kind of the whole you know the whole thing is stand that

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
but anyway the idea is that our desire we have we have basic needs as animals you know food clothing shelter these kind of things but desire he makes he makes a distinction between desire and need and says yeah we have by biological needs but desire is this uniquely human phenomenon you see it to some degree in animals but you see it's sort of you know exponentially different in human beings namely i want what i see other people desiring so i imitate the desires of other people now gerard thinks the interesting part about this is that this episode factor necessarily leads almost always to conflict because the model for my desire ends up becoming an obstacle to that desire and then once i start modeling being another person's desire that person starts copying me right and so we get into a kind of conflict over something and he sees this you know in literature often represented in terms of like a love triangle where somebody falls in love with somebody's girl friend and you know then of a sudden the two guys are in competition for the woman gerard by the way reads frizetaple complex as a version of this so the son

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
learn the desire for the mother through the father but then becomes in conflict with the father and then kills the father you know that and he thinks that froid had a kind of instinct about mimetic desire but you know he

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
made it into this weird psycho sexual

pj_wehry:
kind of

duane_armitage:
thing

pj_wehry:
wine

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
went off the rails a little bit yeah

duane_armitage:
yeah but gerard has a weird respect for froid which i think is interesting but anyway that's the whole point so gerard thinks that human communities are fated to violence because of our hypermemetic nature because so imitative um we end up in conflict a lot and the conflict because we're imitative the conflict spreads right and so this this point about tribalism and an identity politics group identity this is an inevitability hyper medic creatures so just think about t when two people are in conflict they're more likely to get people on their side right and you know people are goin know it's going to spread like

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
this like just like what we see

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
happening in modern politics and you know part of that is due to the internet and social media and things where people can can talk and of course any platform like you

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
know twitter all

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
these things were here you can get free dialog you're going to get a lot of hate

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
right like i can't

pj_wehry:
especially

duane_armitage:
wait to see when

pj_wehry:
when

duane_armitage:
you

pj_wehry:
it's

duane_armitage:
put

pj_wehry:
limited yeah sorry go

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
ahead

duane_armitage:
like when you post this i'm sure somebody is going to say

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
it just invites it because anyway so

pj_wehry:
ah

duane_armitage:
that's the first point human beings are hypermemetic

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
and

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
this memasis leads

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
to conflict now the second

pj_wehry:
sorry

duane_armitage:
insight he has is that human beings have unconsciously figured out you know and he calls it a kind of evolutionary mechanism to solve their violence temporarily and that is through and again all this is pre thematic pre conscious it happens it seems very real to the people it's happening to um but essentially religion is human being's answer to solving the violent conflict that would have otherwise made us extinct

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
basically yeah

pj_wehry:
just real quick two things one is i wanted to let our audience know that i actually ordered the book and i wanted to show it so i feel bad that you had to show your

duane_armitage:
oh that's

pj_wehry:
copy but amazon failed amazon failed me i ordered it a month ago it hasn't come in but so really i got to read some of it online and very very appreciative of it but the other thing and i just want to make sure one that i'm tracking and two i think might be a helpful example when you talk about the obstacle in the way you gave the example of that reading of edifice but

duane_armitage:
yes

pj_wehry:
would another

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
example kind of be you look at someone like michael jordan and you see him and

duane_armitage:
m

pj_wehry:
he's like he is the best and you're

duane_armitage:
hm

pj_wehry:
like i want to be like michael jordan but

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
then what you like what you see with like cob briant is immediately when he wants to be when cob briant wants to become the best

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
that leads them into conflict

duane_armitage:
oh yeah yeah

pj_wehry:
is that a good example is that is that a great example we're talking about

duane_armitage:
absolutely no dart

pj_wehry:
or good example like great example good example yeah

duane_armitage:
it's a great example now dad has this i forget what he calls it he has a name for the desire

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
like me or you

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
would have

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
toward towards michael jordan wanting to be like mike there is

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
commercial as a kid

pj_wehry:
right all right

duane_armitage:
because dad thinks that hierarchy

pj_wehry:
ah

duane_armitage:
is so important here we can have a kind of i forget what the term he uses for but basically if if it's if he's just like someone in a totally different class

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
or status

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
there's real no we can just have admiration there's really no worry about us being me actually thinking

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
i'm a rival of michael jordan

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
but the problem is when you're in the same tier

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
as him like when you're cob

pj_wehry:
yes

duane_armitage:
briant or whoever or cobyanshack whatever it is

pj_wehry:
right

duane_armitage:
then you're going to more likely have conflict so drawn actually thinks there's a human beings hierarchy is one of the ways we figured out how to stop desire because when there's a clear distinction

pj_wehry:
ah

duane_armitage:
between hier it's sort of control people know their sort of role and don't end up in conflict with people that now there's there's problems with that hierarchies and things like that but one of the goods of hierarchies is that it controls violence so he thinks everything a lot of the stuff that

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
that is that is in human culture religion hierarchies all the tings are ways that we figured out unconsciously to control violence so but your example is great

pj_wehry:
okay gotha that's

duane_armitage:
now it's called internal and external mediation is the terms he uses for

pj_wehry:
h

duane_armitage:
a

pj_wehry:
yeah and obviously and this is where you talk about bringing like retrieving insights from nita when we talk about things like um the hierarchy suppressing violence and

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
i mean that to me sounds a lot like the master slave dynamic in nice right like i

duane_armitage:
m

pj_wehry:
mean and that's like and so gerard would agree with that i think he would just say again you know going back to yes there's violence in life it's really okay if we don't affirm it you know it's like

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
right

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
except when absolutely necessary right and

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
so but there is that retrieval it seems of that cess am i

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
right in reading that from niche into gerard or at least as salvaging

duane_armitage:
oh yeah absolutely absolutely yeah that that this is one of the great things about nita is he and i agree with him about this that we have a human beings like to think think themselves

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
different from the animal ingham are totally supe generous from the animal kingdom and say no we have a a lot of this stuff is in us and we can't face it and so nice

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
sort of protofrodiant in that sense a lot of this stuff is unconscious people are not aware of the depths of their depravity you know so

pj_wehry:
yes

duane_armitage:
in that sense niche is very i think spot on no

pj_wehry:
yeah and that leads us and forgive me for interrupting i just wanted to make sure i was tracking with you your that kind of leads us into the idea of the scape goat right and religion

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
i mean obviously and nita has this and his own things to say about that but what does gerard say

duane_armitage:
so gerard thinks human being again so the mimetic nature leads the conflict and the conflict would get so bad that what happens is the way

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
human beings sort of naturally fair this out unconsciously was to select one person and blame them for the entire conflict you know so escape got basically and so this happens on the micro micro level whenever there's tension in a community uh and so i remember when i was teaching um uh gerard right around the time covid was happening one of gerard's famous examples is a plague would come into you know so i with with that the plague comes into thebes and people are like what caused this something something is to blame for this and this is pre pre science you know who's to blame for this problem this this kind of ridiculous thinking you know happened all the time in primitive human communities and we would go what's to blame for this it's edipus he slept

pj_wehry:
uh

duane_armitage:
with his mother and killed

pj_wehry:
uh

duane_armitage:
his father he's doing so he has to be expelled and so gerard thinks right in that story there you have exact and he sees it in countless stories that if you look at if you look at ancient mythology he finds this thread and once you see it you can say you're like oh my god it is in every story that that there's some problem going on and then one person is to blame and then the problem is restored or resolved once that person is expelled and so peace you know the plague stops peace stops all these different things it and you know even if you look at romulus and remus and the founding of rome you know one of them transgresses a boundary that they're to blame for a problem they have to be expelled so drardseis in mythology a kind of primitive religious you know covering up of this kind of violence in human community so ard things that the myths that were passed down are actually the retailing of these originary lynching and scape goading

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
things that human beings would do and so dard things that human beings pinned on one person blame them kill them and then a kind of group cohesion would form because i mean human beings really bonded when they have an enemy you know and they feel really together with with us versus them idea and so this is this idea that group formation and violence are inextricably bound someone needs to die basically in order for a group to be there or there needs to be an other an enemy for a group to have real social cohesion and dart

pj_wehry:
ye

duane_armitage:
thinks this is the foundation

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
of communities the tribe of all the tuff and religion really is the name he gives for this goading and what why he calls it religion is because he thinks that the piece was such so cathartic for human

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
community is that the group formed

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
that human beings would retell the story and then they would start to deify the victim that they killed they would start to say yeah well that whole thing had to happen because maybe that was a visitation of some kind of god or something then you know and they would worship the deity and then they would what they would do was re enact the actual scapegoat through religious ritual admit and so one of the things that gerard i think answers that no other scholar of religion really bothered to answer was why would you go everywhere to you know europe africa china the new world india are their altars and human beings offering

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
sacrifices why why is there this collective idea

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
that god needs blood like what even in christianity it's the

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
idea you know christ you know you know the priest in catholicism and in orthodoxy says mass on the altar you're eating and drinking blood where does this come from and erard gives an explanation it's very simply the re enactment the ritual re enactment of this original scape goading well and then myth is just the retelling of it ritual sacrifice the ritual re enactment of it and it doesn't quite do the same job as the original you know and so

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
human beings have to continually find victims ye

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
what's interesting too is m gerard thanks and then there is some evidence for this a colleague of mine is really interested in this in the evolutionary origins of gerard's hypothesis his name is christopher how willin to the harmonization process but tribes would eat the original sacrifice and eat the immolated victims so they burn up the person sometimes and then eat them you know so this idea of ucoristic imagery you'd kill the animal you kill the pasco lamb and in the excident or whatever ah then you eat it and so this is and you know there would be kind of collective cohesion there and as strange as this sounds this is in every culture it's bizarre why are we doing this and gerard thinks it's it's a kind of steam release valve too let out the pent up frustrations due to our hypermemetic nature

pj_wehry:
a

duane_armitage:
oh

pj_wehry:
and so

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
sorry we gonna were and then you talked about how both the jewish judaism and christianity de construct

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
this and

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
immediately i thought of m when you were first talking about expelling the scape goat the first thing i thought of was jonah

duane_armitage:
that

pj_wehry:
the way he is put but he's

duane_armitage:
yes

pj_wehry:
what was interesting to me even as you were talking is he was kicked out of the boat to satisfy god what and this seems different from what you're saying and this might be i'm curious if this is the de construction they saw the sailors didn't want to do it

duane_armitage:
right

pj_wehry:
right

duane_armitage:
okay so i read i actually read jone i think it's jona one or two where he it

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
goes through this as so gerard thinks that you have with the jewish people the awakening of the beginning of the deconstruction of this so you you're going to find it's not a perfect break doesn't you don't get a perfect break till you get to the new testament into the gospels but jone is a perfect example where you see the jewish mind struggling with the pagan mind right and in jonah so god asked jonah to do something jonah says no he goes on a boat or whatever he flees right and then the tempest comes and the storm comes and men you see all the movements of myth okay somebody's who did this why are we going through this why is this storm about to kill us who's responsible and we just read that you know not having red erard i would read that and go you know kay whatever but no

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
that's exactly what happens me so there's a problem someone's to blame

pj_wehry:
yes

duane_armitage:
so we have mythology and then eventually what do they cast lots they figure out it's jon jon admits to it he says it's my fault and the he's like thrown me over and so they know they have to kill him in order to restore the piece again one hundred percent mythology however you have lord forgive us for hurting this innocent person what that doesn't make any sense you know where does that

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
there's the jewish

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
injection and critique and de construction of it there that the jews recognize that this is not good there are countless examples of this all over the there's one that's i think the duderocononical text the apocrypha about susanna or something where they forget that story but it's very similar were you have the jewish mind retaking it and you know then you start looking all throughout the hebrew bible instances of this where you're aware that the person being scapegoated is innocent and that's the one thing gerard says is impossible for ancient mythology is that in order to have a scapegoat you can't know you're having a sc go but almost in that story you're almost aware that you have a scapegoat you know but he sees all over even as early as genesis all throughout that the idea that victims are innocent so joseph for example story of joseph and potifer's wife

pj_wehry:
right

duane_armitage:
he sees s anti edible he says there's there's that story going around sleeping with your mother and killing your father but the jews tell it differently they tell it as no no no this guy is innocent he didn't do anything he's being unjustly treated so and dorn thinks that the only reason that the jews were well i shouldn't say the only reason the primary reason the jews were able to do this was that they were a persecuted community who text survived so typically you know history is written by the winners and they would destroy they would assault all the women

pj_wehry:
yep

duane_armitage:
you know destroy basically the entire culture but for whatever reason jews survived and their voice survived and so we have the voice of the persecuted the perspective of the persecuted surviving because jerd thinks and this is the niche element in gerard as well there are two perspectives niche was a perspectivist there's a perspective of power the perspective of weakness or strength and weakness and gerard thinks mythology is the perspective of the strong the perspective of the victimizers the story of lynching of escape goading being told from the people who are doing it and of course persons guilty we had to do it they were evil it restored the piece but if you get that

pj_wehry:
ye

duane_armitage:
other voice the voice of the victim you're goin to get a different story and that's precisely what the hebrew bible is now when you get to the new testament and once you see this like for example you read gospel of john pretty much every other chapter they're trying to lynch jesus they're trying

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
to kill him and they're picking up

pj_wehry:
thank

duane_armitage:
stones

pj_wehry:
you

duane_armitage:
to throw at him and he's getting away somehow and and then

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
you know just little things where you know he's innocent you know so luke especially has this where the thief on the cross is like look we deserve this this person has done nothing wrong and still you know and it's like wait a minute we're aware that we're secuting and victimizing and oppressing somebody and they're completely innocent or what the roman soldier says um

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
when christ dies truly this was

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
the son of god or truly this

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
person was innocent i think luke's gospel says or mark one of the is different so there you have you just see it there oh my god it's it's it's a total taking a part of ancient mythology and the scape goat mechanism

pj_wehry:
and i think this is where i'm curious if this is part of the reconstruction and

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
i'm not like leading you on like i actually haven't read this but i you know i have a little bit of theology background so that this makes sense to me like idea of resurrection especially

duane_armitage:
yes

pj_wehry:
that the the scapegoat who is you know in the old testament sent out and then

duane_armitage:
yes

pj_wehry:
all sudden we start seeing that person come back so jonah

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
is cast out and

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
he should die they are planning him dying and they feel bad about it which is its own reconstruction but then he is he doesn't die he is swallowed by a great big fish and then

duane_armitage:
yep

pj_wehry:
he comes back to work for the lord obviously the same thing with you know the value of dry bones you know like the hope beyond hope you see it with you know what

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
there will always be a remnant there will always be the sapling that comes out of the stump and of

duane_armitage:
yes

pj_wehry:
course i'm sure that the ultimate construction of this is jesus coming back in power from death right and so

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
is that am i am i kind of completing the last piece of the puzzle i'm not on this is this is way too much fun for me but

duane_armitage:
yeah no you're absolutely right and what's interesting is you did have you had a kind of quasi return of the victim in mythology where they would come as a sort of spirit and sort

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
of be pissed off you know and it's interesting you know these all this stuff is going on in the text and maybe again unconsciously it's not as though the biblical writer is meant to

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
do this it was just sort of something they were working on but jesus comes back in luke i think it is and he's like do you have any fish cook me up some i'll eat it right and why do you want to do that see i'm flesh and bones i'm not a ghost when ghosts come back it's very different you know we still have this in the collective consciousness now that

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
if a house is sort of haunted it's because the ghost is pissed off they want revenge you know

pj_wehry:
yes

duane_armitage:
there's some unfinished business the ghost wants revenge and so i think dard sees that sort of there was a kind of quasi resurrection in ancient mythology they would they would re enact it to sort of appease the god the god was coming back and they could they could feel the collective piece as well christ comes back and the first thing he says is peace peace shall you know peace be with you and so he's not mad he's not ming for vengeance and so it's very different you have you have what you're talking about in the hebrew bible this this hope of physical resurrection coming back in the flesh that that sort of undoes

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
mythology as well and it sort of has this anti violent nature the idea i think that there's a lot a lot of reasons why gerard thinks that it's the physical resurrection is important but essentially it has to do with the lack of vengeance and a and a cure for violence once the once the scape goat mechanism is reconstructed human beings it's a great enlightenment it's a great innovation in in culture but it has a danger with it as well if human human bings no longer have a way of controlling violence temporarily and so we all have to now adopt the rules of the kingdom which means turn the other cheek when someone asks you to go one mile go to you know love your enemies and do good let them in other words absorb the evil that's the way that violence and and mimetic contagion needs to be handled and if human beings don't do that they'll just kill each other and so that's anyway sort of

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
again rambling on but yeah

pj_wehry:
to put this in christian terms and we see this is like it used to be an eye for an eye right like you had to satisfy sin with blood

duane_armitage:
m

pj_wehry:
and instead the new rules of the kingdom you have to get rid of sin with grace and mercy

duane_armitage:
yeah yeah

pj_wehry:
um

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
and that's that's which you're referencing there with the uh you know if someone asks for your cloak get or coat give him your cloak also and then you know if they ask you to walk a mile walk to right

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
it

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
yeah there's

pj_wehry:
huh

duane_armitage:
a great in gerard i leave the page because

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
i wanted to earmark the page bcause i wanted to read it here yeah he says if you want to put an end and this is the new rules of the kingdom if you want to put an end to the medic rivalry jesus says give way completely to your rival you nip rivalry in the but if someone is making excessive demands on you they are already involved in the medic rivalry and they expect you to participate in the excalatescalation so to put a stop to it the only means is to do the opposite of what the exscalation calls for meet the accessive demands twice over if you've been told to walk a mile walk to if you've been had on the left jakoff or the right so it's this idea that when someone is in a rivalrous relation with you they're going to try to get you to imitate

pj_wehry:
ah

duane_armitage:
them and the only way to stop the negative amasis from spreading is to absorb it this is this is how now it connects sort of to atonement christology and why christ had to die and gerard has a very weird reading of this he thinks christ had to die to illuminate precisely the mechanism of human violence and to give a new revelation of what god is namely as completely anti violent so

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
does that too as well that he thinks with the resurrection of christ comes you know the revelation of the cafe got mechanism and then the breaking of it because once you know you have escape got you can't really escape goat anymore although that's going to connect to post modernism because we do have a

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
which ard calls the antichrist is a new form of scape goading that sort of bastardizebastardiz es christianity and scape goats in the name of not scape goading we'll come back to that but the other

pj_wehry:
well

duane_armitage:
one is yeah

pj_wehry:
good

duane_armitage:
no no

pj_wehry:
i was

duane_armitage:
i

pj_wehry:
going

duane_armitage:
was

pj_wehry:
to

duane_armitage:
going

pj_wehry:
say

duane_armitage:
to say yeah

pj_wehry:
you talk about politics and post modernism when you said you wanted to return to

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
so

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
and this kind o i think is what you're referencing earlier to what you feel yourself committed to when you mentioned m k who obviously

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
is pulling from gondi it's like the answer to violence is this you know this form of non violent protest

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
and while it's frustrating and it does ultimately triumph most of the time right like men obviously like you have to have an oppressor with some kind of conscience right

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
but and that's an important step i think but and it's the probably the idea of willing sacrifice is important there to versus like making escape boat scape

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
goat so like and maybe this he does that tie into what you wanted to say about politics and postmonitism and i think you had

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
somehn sis add as well

duane_armitage:
well just one more thing about that and this is a sage gerard says you know christ's founding of the church as still you have the founding of a community on a death but what you just said in sacrifice you know christ recognizes someone has to die in order to bring people together but the death is founded on the willing offering of himself to be scapegoaded of course chris the primary christian ritual is the uchorist or has been since the beginning and

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
what what are we doing there gerard thinks what we're doing is the recognizing or the recognition that we're persecutors were were participating again in the sacrifice of christ were recognizing that we were victimizers were lynchers were persecutors and so we eat the body of christ and so dear things that's the that in the new testament is the moment of conversion is when uh christians or whomever realized their victimizer so the conversion of saint paul saul saw why are you persecuting me paul you know his eyes are open because he realized well he's blinded by the light damascus because

pj_wehry:
right

duane_armitage:
he recognizes he's a persecutor same thing with peter peter becomes a christian gerard thinks right when he recognizes oh my god i just denied him three times and jesus looks at him and so this is the heart of what it to be a christian for derartis to recognize that you are the problem that

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
we all have this in us you know it's not

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
to be a victim but to recognize our own victim victim is

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
our

pj_wehry:
what

duane_armitage:
propensity to victimize and to scape go now

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
where this rely the post modernism is

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
several different ways but i think what gerard thinks is that it's not christianity conquered evil and conquered violence and conquered the scape going mechanism but it still pops up but now at least once

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
you have a christian culture it's very very difficult once you have this new ethic that emerges from christianity which is the anti victimization

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
ethics like why what is the justification again back to niches point of the world is just about

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
power why side with the week well the

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
christian metaphysics is bound with the idea you know i have a crucifix hanging everywhere why that's the perspective of the truth

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
that's the god's person that is the perspective of the victim that justifies the ethic why should we have mercy on people well because god says so you know says to you know whatever you do to the least you do to me

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
there's rally no justification for siding with the week there certainly is n't vi logically darwin himself saw this and i think descent of man and this is the one thing i always always get in argument with my scientific colleagues with my science colleagues with who are very reductionistic

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
what's the just ification for this ethic that you hold so dearly to namely social justice why

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
should we start with weak people it doesn't make sense unless you're a christian you know

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
so like when richard dawkins says you know one of his famous this is years ago say this but

pj_wehry:
yeah ye

duane_armitage:
why why do you believe in jesus why not thou zeus you know

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
and why just i'm just i just believe in one less god than you and i's like yeah well why do you believe in jesus's ethic why not the roman ethic or the greek ethic or the of the iliod or the ethic of you know whatever you happen

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
you have a jewish ethic why and of course we just take it's so absolute and so it's just we're swimming in this it's just so assumed that we even we just take it for granted that we take it as self evident that we need to help weak people and victims but this is the result and nichi this is niches insight of the concern for victims now

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
or of christianity and this new eth now the post modern point i was trying to make was that the only way because we're so steeped in this ethic now and often ethical debates are about who the victim really is you know so the abortion debate who's victim here is it the woman or is it the pates you know so the debate is almost always framed is with the assumption that okay victimization is wrong we have to figure out who the victim is and then then you win the debate and so no one questions the axiom uh and gerard thinks that what jard calls the antichrist this charicatural aping or miming of christ that is in christ is the persecution that takes this that weaponizes i guess you could say the con for victims ethic and what you see this and you see this in in marxism in particular you know what's the justification for marxism for marxist atrocities why is it that you know everyone looks at national socialism they go that's crazy never

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
again those people were not why were they not so because they were so unapologetically returning to this ancient mythology and they even would do this they would they would resurrect pagan rituals and the stuff and they would i know we're a philosophy that as let the week die off very easy for the world to go well that's nuts harder for us to go to look at mark ideology and say like they're so concerned about the oppressed that we need to kill perceive it pressers that is that's kind of true you know it's kind of true that we should be we should care about the poor

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
we should care about the week and so an example of this that i give and i just want to be clear what i'm saying here is that

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
i'm anti vine and i don't think i don't think violence is violence is good in not siding with one political party uh uh certainly not the right and certainly not the left but i was on i was on a conservative talk show radio show a couple of years ago and i said something like the left is more christian in one sense and what and the guy got very angry

pj_wehry:
that

duane_armitage:
with me

pj_wehry:
that ye like that went over real well i'm sure

duane_armitage:
yeah and i said well what i mean is that they use that ethic you know like

pj_wehry:
yes

duane_armitage:
extreme versions of like right wing politics get very

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
get very races

pj_wehry:
uh

duane_armitage:
on a like like if you think of

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
like white nationalism or you know you look at the capital riots and like no one i don't know anybody i don't even i have a lot of conservative friends they're all like that was nuts what were they

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
doing you know the conservative violence is very clearly wrong you know yeah right wing ance is very clearly wrong left wing violence though it almost always has a point and it sort of inoculated from a first wave of critique so you look at black lives matter riots you know where you

pj_wehry:
hm

duane_armitage:
have billions of dollars and damages people dying hard to critique and people are aware like i don't want to really say you know i look at that and i understand why they're dong beause they're doing it in the name of antivictimization and so that

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
everybody agrees with harder to retake the violence but the danger there is that we and let violence go and this is what happened with marxism i'm not comparing black lives matter to marxisatrosities in the twentieth century but marxism did kill a hundred million people you know

pj_wehry:
right right

duane_armitage:
what the hell happened there well it's harder to critique that is it still like you know i don't see any students coming in with the swastika on their shirts but a lot of them will come in

pj_wehry:
would hope not yes

duane_armitage:
no but they'll come in with the hammer and sickle and people be like oh

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
yeah and it's

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
like well that's you know there's there's a lot of murders done in the name of

pj_wehry:
hm

duane_armitage:
both symbols why is one so so evil and the other one kind of get a pass well i think it's because of it wedding to this anti victim ethic that's that's

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
the sort of point about post modernism

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
that post

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
modernism takes that ethic

pj_wehry:
yeah and this is where you know nita like your talk about when we affirm life we affirm violence as well and what he considers christianity be the morality of the slave you know talking

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
about like obviously kind of taking that is a head gibbons the decline and fall of the roman empire the idea that they raised weakness as a morality and that's

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
kind of yeah um m

duane_armitage:
that's exactly

pj_wehry:
ah

duane_armitage:
right yeah

pj_wehry:
and so yeah it's really interesting i think the that when you talk about the anti christ when you talk about because it's okay to use violence against the oppressor right

duane_armitage:
we

pj_wehry:
like that kind of makes sense to us the

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
problem are the people who use umwhrlike can i say re victimize by using the victims as a pretext for their agenda

duane_armitage:
that's exactly what that's what gerard says yeah that's exactly it that it's the only acceptable form of persecution and victimization is under perceived victimizers and so that's the whole sort of premise of cancel

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
culture you know why do people get canceled well because they've done some form of persecuting themselves and then we can

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
lynch them we can

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
we can gang up and expel them it's exactly the replaying of ancient mythology and it does form a kind of quasi social cohesion you know um

pj_wehry:
and

duane_armitage:
now

pj_wehry:
then

duane_armitage:
of course yeah

pj_wehry:
well i just got a say and that's where this is exactly where it just gets you all a sudden becomes a case by case basis when you talk about canceling because sometimes you're like everyone like yeah that's crazy and then other times they're like you know what just you know

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
and that's where you don't have this automatic like it's easy to reject nausiism because it's very tenets are flawed where

duane_armitage:
yes

pj_wehry:
there is this case by case that's going

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
on

duane_armitage:
exactly and what's great is nice nice has this point in the second chapter of his genealogy where again he's always pointing to our human all too human qualities and he says somewhere i think it's in the i forget maybe the fourth paragraph there where he says something like there's so much that's festive and cruelty en't there's so

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
much that you know

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
it's a human all too human principle but here's just the festivals of cruelty isn't it just great like you know comedians have been

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
talking about this you bring up george carlin

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
where he talks about when

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
you hear bad news don't you get a little joy there

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
and when you know people get people are happy when the scape goats get

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
paraded and they fall there's a kind of relief they get and nita would say

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
you feel that nice feeling you get when you see somebody else suffer that's cruelty

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
watch

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
rejoicing being pleased that another's pain we just stamp

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
a moral categor on it or a label on it we feel better about it and so and one of the things this is my interpretation though i always i at least try even when you're even when we're denouncing terrible people i try to recognize look you know i'm pretty committed to christianity i'm apologetic about this i tell my students this i'm coming from the christian perspective try to follow what jesus says i'm terrible at it but i

pj_wehry:
ah

duane_armitage:
really do try to recognize when

pj_wehry:
eh

duane_armitage:
somebody is even if they're guilty of what they've done not to take joy

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
in their fall like you know

pj_wehry:
right

duane_armitage:
like like even like take an extreme example where everybody i couldn't believe a joke about it on t v you know the suicide of uh epstein is a guy

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
you know and i remember saying that to my class like yeah what this guy did you know assuming that it's true is

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
horrible it's terrible he was a victimizer but he's a human being and p that was very

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
unpopular to to say that in

pj_wehry:
right

duane_armitage:
class

pj_wehry:
right right

duane_armitage:
when it's like yeah but there are two ways you can look at this you can be happy at his at his death or recognize that this is a person and you know

pj_wehry:
hm

duane_armitage:
child of god kind of thing that's not a popular opinion now to say because then people like what are you trying to say

pj_wehry:
ah

duane_armitage:
what i'm trying to say is exactly what i just said

pj_wehry:
right

duane_armitage:
it's ad to do what he did and it's not good but this idea of hating the sin and loving the center kind of thing is just out of the you know i'm one of these again i'm like this relic of the past that

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
still believes in that kind of stuff you know without joining a tribe of hate you know

pj_wehry:
right right

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
you know as a as a silly example and then i'd love to ask for like your concluding thoughts but

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
i couldn't get away from this when i was really young we used to watch almost every night america's funny as home videos

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
and

duane_armitage:
yeah

pj_wehry:
then all a sudden you're you're watching it and i remember one day we were watching it and i empathized with the person who is getting hurt because all

duane_armitage:
ah

pj_wehry:
of a sudden you realize that two thirds of that show are just people like getting hurt and then all a sudden i couldn't watch it any more it wasn't funny any more like and it's literally i don't know if that makes sense but

duane_armitage:
okay yes so

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
nita's theory of humor is

pj_wehry:
yes

duane_armitage:
he has this line i think in the gay science uh humor is shadenfroida with a good conscience so

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
shadenfarted to laugh at another

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
misfortune

pj_wehry:
ah

duane_armitage:
take delight in other pleasure in another's

pj_wehry:
yes

duane_armitage:
misfortune but with a good conscience so when you're watching something on t v or you tube and these fail things they're funny because there's such a distance there you don't even know and you're assuming they're fine but like the example i always give is if you know

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
you watch an anonymous

pj_wehry:
yeh

duane_armitage:
video of somebody falling down the stairs right you think it's funny but if one of you were walking with me one of my students is walking with me down the stairs i start falling and then you guys go nobody would do that because that's

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
that's

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
just rule but there's a fine line between humor and cruelty and this is niches point you know

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
we need to have a good conscience

pj_wehry:
yes i love that so kind of as we wrap up here what is just a final take away you would leave to our listeners

duane_armitage:
oh boy okay well i said i wanted to return to the post modern thing

pj_wehry:
yes

duane_armitage:
and what i would say is that and i teach a class called post modernism and existentialism i teach as well

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
and

pj_wehry:
oh

duane_armitage:
in the as i always preface this to with all right i'm going to give you the structure of post modernism now and i've had students get offended by the structure of post modernism because once you unveil it that's it you know a lot of dial a lot of a lot of debates on the right and the left have this structure to them and you know and again it's that structure that i talked about but i want to just sort of fill in the gaps with that so

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
your critique reason that means you assume that power is the way to understand the world and that there are strong and weak and then

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
you side with the weak that's the structure of post modernism but also in there is that group identity is paramount group identity is the primary way you under and people very dangerous to do that because for guardian reasons that when you start

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
thinking of people in terms of groups uh

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
groups are groups always have somewhere buried beneath the escape attached to them so um be very wary of group group formation not to say you you can't help but thinking in groups and like you said you don't want to pretend differences aren't there so race gender sex all of that all those conversations are good but with a sort of astricuhuh kind of awareness

pj_wehry:
ye

duane_armitage:
of what of the jurarety and undertones of that so you know critique of reason in terms of power group formation sided with the week of course one other thing too that i see more and more baked into this is then in in post modern thinking that you know in twenty twenty two twenty twenty three is a critique in america of of sometimes it is put forth as a critique of capitalism but in general the critique of a meritocracy you know the idea that and so nice puts it this way that you know you have strength and weakness by frercation there's an assumption that if anyone is strong they got their ipso facto by oppression by cheating so anyone at the top of anything got there by somehow victimizing and so i remember again this is controversial you can edit this out if you want but i think it's true

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
that i remember when when we started these conversations about race i remember

pj_wehry:
hm

duane_armitage:
thinking i said to my class at the beginning of last year i said watch semitism is coming back is going to come back and they go you're crazy and of course it came back

pj_wehry:
holy

duane_armitage:
why

pj_wehry:
moses came back with a vengeance

duane_armitage:
back with the engeance why well because because people were noticing jewish americans where were over represented in positions of power and they again according to that post modern logic that you only be in a position of power if you cheated your way up there now of course

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
does that what if jewish americans are more successful

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
from from a literate culture that goes back to you know three thousand four thousand years you have people reading you know of us couldn't most of cultures couldn't read

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
until

pj_wehry:
yeah

duane_armitage:
recently yo know culture

pj_wehry:
ah

duane_armitage:
same thing with asian americans you know an emphasis on education an things like this there's a guy i forget where i read this but he was talking about study times that could account for what success of certain ethnic groups over others that you know the average asian student studying three hours to one hour for the average the average persons average student you kid will study one hours one hour the average stage and student was studying three hours so there was something in the culture

pj_wehry:
a

duane_armitage:
doesn't mean that that people are in these physicians because they have oppressed their way there n so i think it's very dangerous to assume that not of course some people are at the top because they've cheated but it doesn't always mean that and

pj_wehry:
m

duane_armitage:
i think gerard and nice were very critical of that as well

pj_wehry:
and i think that's great great take away so dr armitage thank you so much it's been absolute pleasure talking to you and learned a ton

duane_armitage:
great great to meet you great to talk with you and thank you as an honor beyond