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For so many modern, driven women, life is about being more than one thing. We’re multidimensional—and so are our conversations. We carry multiple identities; we can be both mother and artist; both attorney and entrepreneur. Both clinician and CEO. Both humble and proud. Life for women like us is about both. About…all of the above. It’s about the “and”...
00:44.69
heymarvelous
welcome to the and she spoke podcast today's episode is about why we are abandoning Instagram and where we are heading next on social kind of a big yell.
00:59.10
sandy
Oh my God I We made the decision yesterday and I'm just so excited that we get a chance to talk about it. Um, and even since yesterday afternoon when we talked about this and and decided I have so many things to tell you so that's cool.
01:07.43
heymarvelous
Um, yeah.
01:14.30
heymarvelous
Okay, okay, okay so let's talk about why we're doing this and so I will I'll just give my personal reason and then I think you should give yours Sandy because I you know I think we came to this decision in different ways at different times. Um.
01:16.30
sandy
Let's go.
01:21.58
sandy
Um, sure. Yeah.
01:28.52
heymarvelous
I will just say personally I have not been a fan of Instagram for years and even I think I really ever. But I I kind of was like I had a private account for a while and I was posting pictures for friends and family and travel photos and even then like a year and a half ago I just started to get weirded out by the whole space in the ecosystem.
01:31.45
sandy
If ever.
01:48.25
heymarvelous
And I do think it is very challenging for a lot of people to spend time a lot of women in particular to spend time on Instagram because you get kind of sucked in you know to like the highlight reels of other people's lives and kind of the the traditional critique that we hear but I also just feel like it's a colossal waste of time. And it's like like kind of just turning my brain to mush and I just don't want to expose myself to that. So that's like my take and then and then like that's just personally before like the reasons of this decision and sandy why don't you just kind of like share your story with Instagram a little bit.
02:21.16
sandy
Um, sure I used to love Love Love Love Instagram because of the photography because I I used to just love looking at people's photographs like in the old old days.
02:31.96
heymarvelous
Um.
02:37.58
sandy
And I also used to use it as a challenge for myself I remember I went to Newfoundland and I think in 17 or 2018 and I took like I loved the challenge on a holiday to take beautiful photos and then post them on Instagram not to get followers not to get likes I I mean on my personal account I just I mean I don't I don't care. But I love this like curation and making this beautiful grid of beautiful photography. That's what attracted to me it to me and I loved participating in that now of course it is no longer that. So. I have slowly seen you know the algorithms change multiple times as we know and then there's so much more emphasis on video and I now go into Instagram and I am disgusted I am.
03:24.38
heymarvelous
Um.
03:26.25
sandy
Uninspired I am irritated and annoyed by the content. So first of all, there's so many um ads So it's like post post ad post ad ad post. You know like there's no and of course we all know that.
03:31.58
heymarvelous
Um.
03:36.20
heymarvelous
Yeah.
03:40.96
sandy
That the that we're not seeing friends families people that we follow right? which is super frustrating I'm sure there is a lot of great amazing work on Instagram I'm not seeing it and when I go through my feed I find it very empty and very bland.
03:51.25
heymarvelous
Um.
03:56.62
sandy
And like it's a lot of Tiktok reposting lot of for me for whatever reason the dances the the lipsyncing shows up. Also this trend of like um I forget the word but you know when you're like side by side like you have you like use like ah, there's a word for that. But that you play.
04:11.70
heymarvelous
Um, like duet. Yeah yeah.
04:13.40
sandy
Ah, duet you have someone else saying something profound and interesting and then you sit there and you're like mm and you're like nodding in agreement and I'm like why am I spending minutes of my life watching you nod to someone else who has the wisdom and not you and I think when that trend started I was just like this is awful.
04:20.82
heymarvelous
Um, yeah, yeah.
04:30.62
heymarvelous
Yeah.
04:33.16
sandy
Um, and so I do a quick spin and it now feels like Facebook to me like Facebook is the most boring place on earth there's nothing of interest to me I actually think what people are posting I'm sorry to all my friends and family. It's just so stupid like it's not what I want to do with my life. And Instagram has now become a wasteland in that same way.
04:55.86
heymarvelous
Yeah I feel I feel the same way I mean I've always sort of felt like this and and I think we should dive into the like business critique that we have because you know we have had a business presence together. You know in various capacities for like almost a decade.
05:02.17
sandy
Yes, yes.
05:12.29
heymarvelous
On Instagram and I think for many years early on it was a source of clients. It was a source of leads into our business. It was a way of like meeting new people. It was like kind of a digital networking space that was really great for female founders women, business women entrepreneurs and it was kind of like the hangout.
05:20.26
sandy
Um, yeah.
05:28.79
sandy
Um, yeah.
05:30.19
heymarvelous
For a long time and I think it still is um but I think that's problematic which we'll get into and and I think that it was just sort of like you know it was an expectation that ah a brand like ours would be there and um and I think for a little while it was helpful for us. But I started to notice like years ago. Kind of just the level of conversations that were happening and I think that this like really accelerated in 2020 during the pandemic and um that it just was sort of like people like repeating their version of the same horseshit.
06:00.78
sandy
Um, yeah, yes, yes, yes yeah.
06:03.56
heymarvelous
You know like it's like these are the talking points like this is the holiday that we're supposed to talk about and these are the talking points and we're going to make our version of those talking points or like this is the list of things that we're supposed to talk about as you know a women founded company and we're going to talk about these things these like 10 things in our own way. And I just I hate everything about it and I hate that the um push from the platform to go towards video towards reals um creates this expectation that creators are going to spend a whole bunch of time making it like idiotic 10 second or thirty second videos
06:33.92
sandy
Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, absolutely yes.
06:41.70
heymarvelous
They need to spend like what else could you be doing with that time right? I've always felt like that like so so what? what is like the perverse incentive structure here that is like putting business owners into this position where they're they're these in primarimily women business owners. They're these expectations that they're going to go spend their precious time. Making this garbage right? that just is really making money for zuck and like blackrock and like the people that own all the Facebook stock like that's the whole point. It's it's an abusive relationship economically and then I think that most people don't think that and know that. And I think it's also and then then here's like the spoiler of the episode Sandy right? Which is that like you and I well I started really spending more time again on Twitter during the svb crisis because our bank imploded right? and so you and I both were like on Twitter for 3 solid days without sleeping and I think.
07:16.26
sandy
Um.
07:25.72
sandy
So.
07:34.88
heymarvelous
There was this moment during that week weekend where I realized like oh this is where the people who like run the world are really hanging out and I knew that and I kind of was disgusted about Twitter for a long time because of that. But then like the contrast between like going between Instagram and Twitter where it's.
07:42.86
sandy
Hanging out.
07:51.45
sandy
For her.
07:54.28
heymarvelous
It's like so idiotic on Instagram and it's just like this is where we're playing small and then you go over on Twitter and like this is where like world changing conversations are happening and I think as a woman I resent that there's this expectation that as women we're going to be over in this like.
08:10.52
sandy
Pretty place. Yes, yes.
08:12.26
heymarvelous
You know, like playing house like with pretty pictures world versus like the guys are over there like running the world on Twitter and I think I resent the shit out of that.
08:20.91
sandy
Yes, yes, absolutely a hundred percent so I think the whole video thing is insanity and I also resent it because I just want my photographs back on my feed. Um, and.
08:27.14
heymarvelous
Yeah, yeah.
08:33.60
heymarvelous
Um, yeah.
08:35.23
sandy
I Think that somehow as women oh my card Just we're not videoing this one. My card just ran out of space. Ok fine. Um, ok sorry, let's start that point again. Um.
08:41.41
heymarvelous
Oh okay.
08:55.74
sandy
I Forget what I was saying. Ah oh I know I know so I think I resent the whole video thing as you said but also like somehow our brains got brainwashed. We're brainwashed into believing that. That's how you run a business that that's what you have to do.
08:55.76
heymarvelous
Yeah, you're saying oh yeah.
09:10.89
sandy
And there's no like critical thinking about should I do this is this how I spend my time It's just assumed that this is what you do to build a business and we've been going I've been going on at nauseam about how for a lot of women women business owners in the early stages. They assume that the only option is Instagram like that's marketing that totally defines marketing. And I think what we've done today and this episode I want to challenge that it may work for you a hundred percent if you love video if you're comfortable talking your audience is there and it's working then go for it. It's not working for us when we look at the time it takes to create content for. Instagram versus some of the other platforms which we're going to talk about. So um I also want to say it feels like women in business and I do not mean to offend anyone out there who's using Instagram I just want to challenge you. We're not really saying anything on Instagram without our business. We're not saying anything there and I if I am following you I want to know what you think and feel and are experiencing I want to hear your stories I want the personal I want your unique take on whatever it is that you teach and i.
10:06.85
heymarvelous
Thank you? Ah, ah yeah.
10:25.58
sandy
Do not see that happening on Instagram at all and I am very influenced by you Jenny um, and you're thinking on this and you recently went home to a coach of of writing program. Um, and it really changed you and for the better and like really opened up some things that have been kind of stuck.
10:44.52
heymarvelous
Yeah, yeah.
10:46.19
sandy
You know, um, shut down inside you and I'm grateful for that because and we teach this in our our program ah visible in luminaries that you need to say something when you are marketing your business like you actually need to say something.
10:57.30
heymarvelous
You know.
10:59.55
sandy
And for me personally at this moment in time I am afraid to speak on Instagram.
11:04.10
heymarvelous
Yeah, yeah, so so here's the thing the words matter like the ideas behind the words are what matter and I think that what happens is because we only have a finite amount of time we as. And again we're speaking in generalizations. But we're generalizing I think a lot of.
11:10.98
sandy
Yes.
11:23.49
heymarvelous
There are a lot of people like this and in women in in online business in particular so you're either going to devote the time to the ideas themselves or you're going to devote the time to making the graphic pretty or the video pretier. Whatever it is and I think that the women like generally speaking are making the graphic pretty and the men are making the ideas.
11:29.28
sandy
Right. Okay.
11:43.32
sandy
Yes, yes yeah.
11:43.47
heymarvelous
And it's a huge frickin generalization. We know that but like it's it's a real. It's a real pattern and I think that I I have always felt this and until the last few months didn't have like the words to articulate it I've always felt like.
11:56.73
sandy
Means.
12:01.24
heymarvelous
Just held back I felt like I was holding myself back. Um, because I mean I like pretty things but and I mean the the internet is ephemeral like you make something and and it's gone in 2 seconds for the most part unless it has stickiness in its ideas and so. I think that I just I've like just been so deeply uncomfortable with this expectation that we need to make pretty things or funny things or cute things or sexy things when really what we need to do is like have important ideas make real connection with people.
12:21.55
sandy
Length month.
12:36.60
heymarvelous
Like challenge authority where it needs to be challenged and all of those things are very hard to do not to say it's impossible to do on a platform like Instagram some people are doing it. Um, it's extremely rare and I think that there is backlash if you do choose to do it on Instagram because you're sort of like violating.
12:43.76
sandy
And.
12:51.86
sandy
Right? The pretty rules We don't really think here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no I think that that's right? Um, we also have had the ah advantage and.
12:53.71
heymarvelous
The unspoken rule that this is like this is a place where we play by the rules we say we talk the talking points. We make the pretty pictures and then like back off if you're in a challenge anything.
13:09.77
sandy
1 could argue disadvantage of of like being in a male dominated tech world and the people that we follow are those people and that we are also business coaches and very much in the female business world or women building business world and so we see both sides and I think that it I'm going to take that.
13:16.29
heymarvelous
Yeah, yeah.
13:29.18
sandy
That's and a total advantage I'm going to remove my disadvantaged comment. It's a total advantage because we can see how they operate differently and so many times over the well from the beginning we would say isn't it interesting. How women are doing it this way and men are doing it this way.
13:45.76
heymarvelous
This way and yeah, open.
13:48.49
sandy
The women are policing themselves. The women are being mean to each other and the men are going to making the fucking money like.
13:51.39
heymarvelous
Yeah, yeah, that's right and they're they're policing themselves. Um, among like the minutia of of like the Minutiae of the Minutiae is where the policing is happening and I think that that's also so disturbing to me is that like.
14:03.17
sandy
So.
14:06.59
heymarvelous
Generally speaking. We all think and agree on the same things and but because of that the only area to have a conversation is where we disagree and that's like it's like the the size of the flea on the Rat on the cat like it's like that level of like detail it' sort of of of inconsequential.
14:21.22
sandy
Um.
14:25.11
sandy
Yeah.
14:26.31
heymarvelous
Issue and I and I I'm sure we will get pushback on that and I welcome it like fine. Let's push back on that. But I I mean it's like you know there's a woman we can talk about I don't know her. And you don't know her either Sandy but 1 of the women I think that's pushed back on this way of operating on Instagram as a coach named Lindsay Lockett which we who we both follow and just sort of I admire her audacity on the platform you know and she has like I read the comments and I don't agree with everything she says.
14:45.82
sandy
Ah, subject. No.
14:52.89
heymarvelous
But I I really respect her for pushing back on people and you know like people will she'll say something and she's like a trauma coach I think I think and people will say things like oh you wrote this and you you know this was triggering and you should have put Tw like trigger warning on your post and.
15:01.45
sandy
Yeah, yeah.
15:12.34
heymarvelous
And you know she will fire back and say like it's not my responsibility to protect you from being uncomfortable and like those are the level like so I appreciate that and I and I think that there's a need for that kind of conversation, especially among women. Um, but I also am like god I just don't want to operate on that I just. I want to go talk about like like I sent you a post day before yesterday I think I dmed you on Twitter that was like somebody somebody posted an investor I think like here are the here are all the people who are solo founders that I can think of who are building billion dollar companies
15:40.53
sandy
So that.
15:47.36
heymarvelous
And it was just like list and people were adding to the list and it was mostly people in the millions that but they're like oh these could be billion dollar solo founders and not a single damn woman on that on that thread and I'm like that's the that's what I'm reading on Twitter and then I come over to Instagram and it's you know it's just I can't even talk about what's there.
15:53.90
sandy
Yes.
16:03.96
sandy
Yeah.
16:06.22
heymarvelous
It's It's just nonsense and I think like this to me is where do you want to operate in your life like like and maybe you don't want to change the world and maybe you just want to like post pictures that look almost exactly like everyone else's pictures and words that look exactly almost like everyone else's words Maybe that's what you want. And if that is what you want I would just question I would ask you to question yourself Why like what are you getting out of that like what do you get out of spending time doing that you have this one Life. You have limited time limited moments and especially limited time to work on your business and like what the hell are you doing.
16:33.28
sandy
Ah.
16:41.86
sandy
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah I I ah for our existing clients. Um, they all know autumn and when we decided this I messaged her. She's one of our coaches and I was like autumn I need you.
16:42.39
heymarvelous
And and it's and it's self-re reflecttive right? because we also have done this or we have had team members doing this for years and I just think we're like no I'll done.
16:59.61
sandy
Need to talk to you for a few minutes and she was like let's huddle I'm like no let's Zoom because I want to see your face when I drop this bomb. She was like oh my god what's happened you know and she just like flung her and tap just like what we're getting off Instagram what? Um after I had that conversation with autumn i.
17:09.21
heymarvelous
But yeah.
17:18.33
sandy
Um, turned to Twitter and I took one of our I did a little experiment results are not in yet. But I want to talk about how it felt for me I took ah 1 of our podcasts and I tried to choose one that like could somewhat be a little bit controversial or like what are they saying. And that was the one about um how money does make you happy and so I wrote a Twitter post to sort of hook them into this concept and idea and then I just posted our link to the podcast and I put it on Twitter and it took me maybe 10 minutes because I it's been a long time i. Read Twitter but I don't always post and so it took me a minute to figure that out great and then I went over to Linkedin I just copied it pasted it to Linkedin easy and then I went to Instagram.
18:06.30
heymarvelous
Um.
18:09.80
sandy
Like I'm go do one I'm gonna do the exact same words exact same everything and I like held my phone and I okay, what do I do here I don't I'm not going to canva to type this out. No so I guess I'm Goingnna go and I'm Goingnna make a real okay hit real I just like shitty light and just said the said said the words I did on Twitter it means a little bit because more.
18:15.67
heymarvelous
Then Jesus.
18:28.58
sandy
Little more conversational I threw up some filters so I didn't look like I was 90 and then I added captions and then I had to oh I need to how to go through audio you know it was just and it took me 30 minutes to create the simplest reel ever.
18:40.30
heymarvelous
Oh God sandy.
18:45.71
sandy
And what was so interesting to me regardless of what comments or engagement we get was the way that I felt so when I was initially. Um so so the the work I wanted to highlight or amplify was already created. It was a podcast but I had to sit and think for Twitter and Linkedin.
18:50.69
heymarvelous
Okay.
19:04.58
sandy
What are the words that I need to think about what is compelling what is interesting who's gonna be watching that or listening sorry reading this. What do what do I have to say to like engage them and interest them. Versus going to Instagram where I was like well how's my light which filter should I use. How do I look? How's my background is my purse open in the back you know all that freaking nonsense that has nothing to do with anything and I loved the way that I would challenge myself to write something.
19:30.58
heymarvelous
Kind of. Are.
19:35.33
sandy
With intelligence and interest you know to pique curiosity on Twitter versus the decisions and things I had to think about when I was on Instagram now I could coach myself I know I could hear our clients I could coach myself I could figure out Instagram I could make that I could think differently about it. But I don't want to. Don't do that work I'm choosing to leave for a more I love your shallow versus deep I I were choosing with a lot of intention to go to ah a deeper quotations platform.
19:55.52
heymarvelous
Um.
20:07.16
heymarvelous
Yeah, yeah, and I will just say like personally I mean we have had a brand account on Twitter for a long time but I kind of was using it as my personal account and then and then I've just started a brand new Twitter account. Um personal account and I'm I'm only lurking still. But I I mean. So like I've spent a lot of time on Twitter reading tweets for years and years and lurking and felt like it did not make sense for us as a brand to to focus our presence there because our audience wasn't there and I think that I also just decided like I don't care like then then they're not there.
20:32.29
sandy
In here.
20:42.60
heymarvelous
But I but but I think that there I think that there's an audience there that we just were either too afraid or too uncomfortable with working to cultivate and I and I think that that was a shift that happened for me and I guess like the other thing that I'll just say is your description of what it felt like to post on Twitter and Linkedin like that's how i. Felt about Facebook like I was an early adopter to Facebook because I was in grad school at Yale when Zuckerberg was at Harvard launching Facebook so the Facebook came to yell I think second or like very soon after it launched beta at Harvard and I got I mean I got on really fast. Um on beta and it. I loved early social media just like I loved early blogging because it was actually about what you're saying it was like sharing an idea really quick in like and like resharing other people's ideas that resonated with you which is what Twitter essentially is and so I think especially now that Twitter you can have longer tweets like it's basically like early Facebook.
21:24.20
sandy
Um, um, right.
21:38.20
heymarvelous
To me. That's what it is before Facebook became like the monstrosity that it became and so I think that there it's like what what it shows me is that there's a place for like important conversations to happen on social media and I think the plate that that where that happens shifts over time and I think that that's ok and.
21:38.65
sandy
Um.
21:57.84
heymarvelous
I Think it's worth considering where you're going to spend your time based on like where is the place that important conversations are happening and I I just challenge all of you who feel like I don't know if I want to be there because I felt that way for a long time because it's vulnerable and scary like.
22:00.62
sandy
Ah.
22:12.36
heymarvelous
Why why are you scared like try to figure that out like what are you actually afraid of because I if if I go like I spent months thinking this through before we decided to like really do this for a real sandy and talk about this like this um like what is my fear. Okay, my fear. My ultimate fear when I work back through all the layers is being doxed. Is being like I say something that's like so that's seen as so inflammatory or so controversial that there is hatred piled on which happens on Twitter I think probably as more than anywhere else and like the worst outcome for a person is that they get docs. Like I mean besides physical violence which being docs though is like having your personal your home address share it on the internet right? like there is a physical fear. There. So I'm like okay how likely is that to happen. Um, and then like what would I do if that did happen.
22:52.45
sandy
Pretty much. Yeah, yeah.
23:04.53
heymarvelous
And so I think that this is just like working through any fears like you follow through. Okay so what happens like we'll play that out and I think that what I realize is like even if my scariest fear comes true I'm strong enough. My family's strong enough like we would make choices we would deal with it. Is it worth muzzling yourself because of that like long.
23:10.35
sandy
Um.
23:23.80
heymarvelous
Far fetched fear which is possible but like is it likely and even then how in danger are you and and so I had worked it up for myself that it was like my physical safety is why I will not post on Twitter and I think that I was like well what if that like what if I don't have to feel physically unsafe.
23:32.98
sandy
I.
23:39.51
sandy
Yeah, yeah, because there is a lack of women saying stuff on meaningful things on Twitter and all platforms and and Twitter.
23:41.86
heymarvelous
So.
23:51.29
heymarvelous
Um, yeah.
23:54.84
sandy
And so I think like the world needs to hear Jenny's voice and thoughts out there and that that will far like the the benefit of that. Um to I think our business to your mental health will far outweigh that small chance of getting Docs but. Obviously knowing that you can deal with it if it happens is super powerful. Um, yeah yeah, I mean that is a fear for sure with like our marvelous like with our bigger, our bigger brand. Yeah, 100 %
24:18.51
heymarvelous
Well being canceled is the other fear which is not as scary as being doxed. Yeah yeah, yeah.
24:33.10
sandy
But I also think we've been muzzling ourselves for the since the beginning out of fear right? like and it's just such a. We've had this conversation. We've we've also said to each other since especially since 2020 we've all you've always said that.
24:36.20
heymarvelous
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, but especially since 2020 especially since 2020 yeah
24:51.67
sandy
The most interesting conversations that you and I have are in private and I think we're going to try to move that public a little bit more in our newfound bravery. Um I don't know but can we just talk about Twitter for a second like what is it that you love.
24:56.25
heymarvelous
Um.
25:04.21
heymarvelous
Yeah, well I I love that the conversations that happen there lead to real world outcomes like fairly frequently I think that the people that I follow are having conversations that then lead to something.
25:09.81
sandy
I Don't maybe love is a strong Word. Center.
25:22.52
heymarvelous
Like a conference happens a news story happens. Something gets leaked like a business partnership is formed like real things happen like somebody gets challenged Publicly. So then they write an op Ed like I think that that is the like that's. The opportunity with a tool like social media like that's why when it was Invented. It was so revolutionary is that like it allows a regular person little me little you to have a direct line of communication to someone we otherwise would not have that connection with and so wow.
25:39.60
sandy
Look yeah.
25:51.33
sandy
Yeah.
25:55.67
heymarvelous
We live in a world where that happens like we live in a world where that's possible and yet we are not taking advantage of it because of fear or because of Insecurity or what for whatever other reason and I think that that's such a um, such a shitty thing to do to ourselves like I I think why like while this exists.
26:04.57
sandy
Yeah. Yeah.
26:15.45
heymarvelous
And this moment in time and it and you know like it might not always exist the way that it does. But for now it does So why would we not use that opportunity.
26:26.17
sandy
Um, the other thing I wanted to tell you was this morning when I was waiting for you I went on Twitter and I was just whatever in the feed there was a question from a woman who said where are all the femalebiz/tech podcasters out there and I would. Out hesitation I'm like right here my partner and I run at marvelous and we have a podcast about this did-da and I named it and I hit publish or whatever the word is and I was like oh whoa, what I would never do that on. Never do that on Instagram and it's I just i.
26:43.60
heymarvelous
And.
26:51.94
heymarvelous
Yeah. Why why? Sandy tell me why.
27:02.34
sandy
I would think about it and then I would be like mm I want to be I it's it's fear and I know I'm just trying to decide what am I afraid of I'm afraid of that people will come after us on Instagram.
27:10.54
heymarvelous
Um, yeah.
27:17.32
sandy
For for whatever like however my words can be construed like it's ridiculous in that example because it's like hey we have a podcast and I just I just wouldn't do it on Instagram and I I need to think about that. What why.
27:17.93
heymarvelous
Um, and.
27:23.75
heymarvelous
Fuck Instagram and the people would come after him. Wow.
27:31.54
sandy
But I didn't hesitate. It was fun to do it on and I read through everybody's and there wasn't that many which was shocking um and some of them weren't even the topic that the lady was talking or asking for and.
27:36.60
heymarvelous
Wow.
27:44.70
sandy
We have exactly what she's talking about and I was like really proud to to to put my hand up and say we have we have one. We actually have one We are nontechnical cofounders of an incredible software team or a company called that marvelous.
27:49.83
heymarvelous
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
27:57.91
sandy
You know I don't know but I just I would never I don't write things I don't comment on all on Instagram because I just think of I don't know I we just know too many people who've been canceled on Instagram and I think that's what I'm afraid of yeah.
27:58.10
heymarvelous
Yep.
28:11.24
heymarvelous
Yeah, Well I mean this is a bigger conversation I think I think that the chilling effect of cancel culture on business on um, entrepreneurship on thought leadership is something that collectively as a culture we should be examining constantly. I Think it's one of the most dangerous forces we have in society right now and I think even commenting to say it's dangerous runs the risk of you getting canceled right? So I mean this is us like saying speaking truth to some sort of fucked up power and I think that part of this is I.
28:34.75
sandy
Write writes.
28:45.53
heymarvelous
It's three years now since the pandemic it's 3 years and our worlds and lives have changed irreversibly since that over the last three years and I think that I just I think that there was for me like a little bit of a wait and see like wait and see and then and I like maybe this.
28:52.76
sandy
And.
29:05.30
heymarvelous
Will pass um on its own without having to like get yourself embroiled in some kind of kerfuffle about it. But I also think like ok the direction things are heading to me feel dangerous and I'm ultimately a political animal like my background is politics.
29:06.42
sandy
Ah.
29:24.13
heymarvelous
And I have I'm I'm like I'm it's sort of like I can't I'm going to I'm going to explode if I don't start speaking and so I think anyways like we have where we've been podcasting together since 2016 and we've been on social media together since before that 2015
29:40.46
sandy
And.
29:42.78
heymarvelous
And I just think like there's this level of we're just going to own it now like we're just going to actually really embody our who we are what we believe? Yeah, and what we have to and be proud of what we've created.
29:49.32
sandy
And beliefs and state them and and come what may. And yeah, yeah, yeah, um I also want to say to our clients who many of them listen if you are all freaking out. About this and thinking that this must mean that you have to get off Instagram and go to Twitter that's not that's not what we're saying. It's just like we are making a decision for ourselves given our history that you just said our thoughts.
30:13.53
heymarvelous
Don't no, don't do that? No yeah.
30:22.79
sandy
And what we want to do and I think too there's part of this like we want to grow our audience to beyond our software clients that that demographic right and coaching clients right? and so and Twitter makes sense for us to do that. There's also this piece of like.
30:28.29
heymarvelous
Yeah, and coaching clients. Yeah well beyond. Yeah.
30:40.79
sandy
The frustration well of being silent and like no more and this like this realization you know so I just encourage all of you to make the decision for yourself. But and we talk about this all the time like decide is Instagram working. Is it. So and a lot of them are in the very beginning stages and it's really hard because you don't have a lot of data but it's just even if you choose to do Instagram we encourage all of you to say something say something meaningful. Say something important say something perhaps controversial. Um, and just like where are you policing and silencing yourself to fit into the activities on Instagram.
31:22.61
heymarvelous
Yeah I mean this goes back to Seth Godin's like kind of preeminent marketing work which is like be remarkable like say something remarkable like it's his purple cowbook and I know that you know you and I have wrestled with that word a lot and when we have brought it up.
31:32.93
sandy
Um, the hands.
31:42.30
heymarvelous
To our community and our audience I think that there's always been this like well that might intimidate some people and I just I think you know what you have one life like just seriously I I shouldn't intimidate you like you have something inside of you to say and I just. If you feel like you don't You're lying to yourself like that's my opinion. But I'm sticking by it like if you especially if you feel called to entrepreneurship like you are a creator of things in the World. You are not like a passive consumer at that point and you need to stand for something and so I just I and.
32:14.72
sandy
So.
32:19.17
heymarvelous
It doesn't you can't you you especially now cannot get by with just parroting your version of what other people are doing like it's not going to work. You're not going to be able to grow business like maybe in 2016 twenty seventeen you could get away with that because there was room on the internet for ah, there was just it was not such a crowded place.
32:35.39
sandy
Yeah, and I think as you get more experience with your teaching or your coaching or whatever it may be. You usually start out sort of mimicking mimicking or or using systems and ideas from your.
32:37.76
heymarvelous
But now it is.
32:52.53
sandy
Teacher or training. But as you go forward through the years of having your own clients. You start to become unique. You start to be able to spin your own um ideas and systems and frameworks so that you do stand out in the marketplace and that will come with time and that's when you can really start to. Say something of interest and you know, but in the beginning I do think we're just all kind of saying the same thing because we're new and we're unsure. But as you get more experience more clients you are able to be unique to be different than everyone else. Um, and I think a lot of women are afraid to do that and that's I think that's really the message of this.
33:29.58
heymarvelous
Yeah, and I and I think there's again Justification for that. There's reasons to be afraid. But I think if you you know here's the other thing if we all do this together like if there is a mass movement for people like for women in business to start like speaking their truth.
33:30.12
sandy
Episode.
33:48.19
heymarvelous
I think it's just going like it's it's less likely that we'll be sort of taken off 1 by 1 You know like if you're like a single bird taking off in a hunting field I know nothing about this of this analogy like you're going to get shot the duck's going to get shot. But if it's like a whole flock of ducks.
33:55.50
sandy
Um.
34:03.45
sandy
Yeah.
34:06.40
heymarvelous
Right? or Geese or whatever gets shot. This is a terrible analogy but like some of them are going to get away like I just sort of think like you know when there's only a few people willing to do this in our in our space then yeah, they're going to be singled out. But if if a bunch of us are willing to do it then then it's just like it's just.
34:10.37
sandy
Ah, yeah, yeah.
34:19.47
sandy
Above. So.
34:25.77
heymarvelous
Gets normalized. So yeah I think that the platform doesn't matter I mean this is what we teach invisible right inside of our visible program which is like you pick 1 place to amplify like 1 I probably social but doesn't have to be social somewhere on social to amplify your thought leadership.
34:30.12
sandy
Right.
34:42.10
heymarvelous
And I think that that is an important if you have no idea where to start I mean we we teach how to pick something but I think it also is something that needs to be revisited over time and I and I think we always decide we early on decided Instagram was our place and then but for like the last five years we've hated it. And so why you know like we should have there was time to revisit that and um, who knows like if Twitter is the right place or not but I just think I don't know I'm like moth to a flame to power and I see the power there and I see that the dearth of women.
35:16.80
sandy
Um, yes, yes, a hundred percent
35:18.95
heymarvelous
Um, in so many conversations like it's just such a tiny minority of women participating and I just feel disgusted that we are chew. It's not like we're excluded. We are choosing to not participate So what the hell is that about. Yeah.
35:30.47
sandy
Um, there's no barrier to joining. Yeah Twitter yeah, and I just want to say one of the things this is me being canadian um, one of the things like I've been on i've. On Twitter since like 2017 or something and you know I just I usually use it for more like when something is happening on like world events like sort of the fast that's a fastest place to get news. Um as a canadian I've always been fascinated by and confused by american um, like.
35:51.62
heymarvelous
Um, yeah.
36:02.62
sandy
Politics and it's like you're this or you're that it's super black and black and white super divided and I've always like followed Cnn and Fox News so that I can see the entire conversation and not just like this is the right side and that's the wrong side and you know this us versus them mentality. And I kind of am just loving and you could argue that you could do this on Instagram but ah, I'm not so just trying to be and trying to be nice. The people use Instagram I love that I have curated um like.
36:23.80
heymarvelous
No I think no.
36:34.71
sandy
People on the entire spectrum of opinions and I can listen to them and watch like Jordan Peterson I do not like that man but I want to hear what he has to say because there's some things I'm like oh that's interesting I actually couldn't finish his book. But.
36:50.52
heymarvelous
Um, that was rough that book was rough. Yeah yeah, sure huge influencer? Yeah yeah.
36:52.19
sandy
Ah, but he is an influencer out there people listen to him and I want to know what he's saying and so I like I think that I'm coming to Twitter um, sort of igniting my activity on Twitter with this like idea that I want to see the whole conversation. And I know that there's still an algorithm at play. But I have just witnessed so many things like this is a super simple kind of a dumb example, but ah in Canada our our opposition let leader is Pierre Polyev he's a conservative and he there was a. They had ah I think it was national indigenous day a few days ago and they had the opening of the parliament. They just like bowed their heads in silence for a minute in acknowledgment and there's a photo of pure polyov with his head up with everyone else's heads down and this headlines where like pure polylia refuses to to. Ah. Um, take a moment of ah of silence for indigenous day and then it was like in in that. My first reaction is like what an asshole like how could you do that and then like the opposing side posted images of like moments of time in that period where there was tons of people who had their heads up because it just it's like a a.
37:50.19
heymarvelous
Of that.
38:08.57
sandy
Like you just might have raised your head for half a second and so there was people on both sides who had their head and I was like wow because I would have been influenced against pire polyov if I hadn't seen the opposing like images of like different times in that in that 1 minute of silence of everyone moving you know and I just.
38:22.12
heymarvelous
Are.
38:27.75
sandy
I really feel good about listening to both sides and watching and listening to people that I don't necessarily agree 100% with but I just want to hear the full conversation and that is in this day and age that to me is really really important.
38:42.64
heymarvelous
Well I will challenge you on the idea that there are two sides and I think that that's also what happens what happens in spaces like Twitter right? where there's like many shades of gray and sides that are completely censored by mainstream media on whatever political.
38:46.96
sandy
Okay, sure like that the bifurcation like the 1 right? Sure absolutely yes, yes, yes, yes.
38:59.63
heymarvelous
Side and I think that that's that's the important role I think that Twitter in particular is playing right now and I know a lot of people disagree with that. But Elon Musk you know don't agree with like firing everybody and like immediately and and like yeah like.
39:11.80
sandy
Lots of things. Yeah.
39:15.11
heymarvelous
But but I Also it's not my business right? like maybe I would have made that decision I don't know if I had the same circumstances. Ah but I do really appreciate sort of like there are so many people who were censored during the pandemic and and some of whom I deeply respect and.
39:18.67
sandy
And hands.
39:32.73
heymarvelous
I think it was the first time in my adult life that I was that heartbroken at least in my country about this this loss of free speech. Um I mean I'm like a human rights lawyer right? like i.
39:43.00
sandy
The.
39:45.91
heymarvelous
I care so much about this the constitution in my country I feel like was trampled during the pandemic and you know like it's going to be shocking for Americans to hear somebody who I consider myself you know, liberal and progressive to say that but that's.
40:00.65
sandy
And.
40:02.51
heymarvelous
The truth like and and that is not allowed to be said in circles that I run in and I just appreciate so much that people have been re-platformed who were incredibly censored. Um and some of whom have extremely important points of view.
40:13.25
sandy
Yeah.
40:19.40
heymarvelous
And I just I just think that like big tech will have to contend with that and and Twitter I think has has taken us step in the right direction. So that's part of the reason why I'm sending more time. There is just um because I think it's chilling to censor people and even if you I mean I lots of people who were censored I like. Vm vehemently disagree with like with all of my heart and soul. But I still think that they shouldn't have been deplatformed and like anyway that's a bigger conversation but that but that is that's an important conversation and ends and another important reason to spend time there versus Facebook. Um.
40:42.32
sandy
Yeah, that's that's another yeah conversation.
40:55.78
heymarvelous
I can tell you that I was part of a conversation three days ago about a so like in a private Facebook group because it's the only time I go on Facebook is to participate in like long covered community groups. It was about a supplement like a precursor to glutath th I on like the least fricking. Controversial thing in the entire world and I was part of a conversation about how the supplement is like the Fda in the United States is maybe taking a supplement off the market because a drug company has been doing r and d and they're trying to file a patent and so they they petition the Fda to take like a vitamin off the market.
41:28.50
sandy
Ah.
41:33.25
heymarvelous
And I was in part of a conversation about this and people are like well you can still order it here and so like and like oh where do where are you ordering it before the Fda removes and this has happened throughout covid and literally that I left to go say good bots to to. You know, take my daughter say goodbye to her for summer school and came back to my computer literally 5 minutes later and the conversation was gone like I saved the link I put it in my notes because I anyway have a way of tracking long covered data and conversations I go back to the post and it's been removed and but that is so normal Sandy like that is.
41:53.67
sandy
Oh.
42:01.76
sandy
Wow! Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
42:07.10
heymarvelous
My lived experience for the last three years and so like I'm I'm saying that because I think some people don't who are not part of the circles that I'm in do not see the extent to which things are censored on Facebook and Instagram like the most innocuous it's a vitamin. It's like let's talk about this vitamin.
42:14.13
sandy
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but the censorship. Yeah yeah.
42:22.84
sandy
So.
42:25.40
heymarvelous
And let's talk about like okay, it's might be going off the market and like who's been like surviving because they have this fucking vitamin for the last couple of years. So it's long covid and where can we so I placed my order immediately and ordered 6 vi six like cases of this vitamin because I have to worry about my Fda taking it off the market. So our podcasts I mean who knows.
42:30.62
sandy
Yeah, oh my god.
42:40.94
sandy
Yeah now. Yeah.
42:45.79
heymarvelous
This app is just because I said this like we probably could not have this episode if we put this up on Youtube Sandy this episode very well Mike it taken down because I just said that and that is the problem with Youtube Facebook Instagram and that is ah also a big reason why I spend time on Twitter.
42:52.47
sandy
Ah, him her ah her.
43:00.16
sandy
Yeah, well I think that point is a good place to wrap it up. You can tell I hope that there's like so many things just bubbling inside of us to come out and I think we've just made I feel like a really.
43:12.34
heymarvelous
Yeah.
43:19.12
sandy
Important decision to kind of turn this podcast to some bigger issues that we talk about privately that we think we need to that need to be more public and maybe we'll get censored and we'll probably get some hate mail and we're we'll handle. We'll just handle it. Yeah yeah because we know it won't be taken down. Yeah no, it's.
43:32.23
heymarvelous
We'll just post the episode directly on Twitter you can go listen to it there. Well yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, and I and I think you know what we're not going to get everything right like us. We're not um, like.
43:38.65
sandy
Seriously. Okay.
43:47.36
sandy
And there.
43:47.73
heymarvelous
Self-restraining what we're saying here you know I think that that's the other thing is like this episode and like we started to with with really like the talking about our entire business like journey when we were on Claire Pelitro's podcast like this is you can start to see I think if you're listening that we're like.
43:55.80
sandy
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
44:03.84
heymarvelous
We're like sort of like not zipping up our mouths like we have been for the last like three years and longer and I think that like this is just we're not going to get everything right? you know like but I but I think that that's okay because I think that's again part of the problem is that like when you try to be perfect. Um.
44:16.34
sandy
Yeah, you don't say anything? Yeah, yeah, yeah I think that's really important that work. We have thoughts and ideas. But we're also willing to be corrected or like.
44:21.30
heymarvelous
You don't say anything at all. Yeah.
44:28.32
heymarvelous
Yeah, make mistakes.
44:31.59
sandy
Make mistakes and like maybe think about never thought about that angle right? But that's the fear that I have to say anything because people are going to criticize me that I didn't think of some angle or whatever I don't know who here we go Jenny here we go let's do join hustle.
44:36.86
heymarvelous
Um.
44:43.74
heymarvelous
Here we go all right? Do you want to do the joy or Russia give me the joy. The joy is that is that um the Seth Godin interview with Tim Ferriss yeah so we both well I I watched.
44:52.23
sandy
Ah, yes.
44:56.10
sandy
Yeah, yeah.
45:03.90
heymarvelous
This interview on Youtube and then I sent I think I sent you the link Sandy so Tim Ferriss and Seth Godin are good friends and it's very clear that they're good friends based on this podcast and ah and and I love Tim Ferriss ' podcast because there's his episodes are so long and and rambly but like in such a good way. It's like a natural conversation. Um, between.
45:10.28
sandy
Um.
45:14.30
sandy
Yeah.
45:21.63
sandy
Storytelling way? yeah.
45:23.21
heymarvelous
Friends and um it it was an interview with Seth about his new book which we've talked about already on the podcast and I just think it's like it's a really personal conversation more so than I've heard Seth to you know publicly before and it's a beautiful conversation and it's um, he talks about like a near-death experience which i.
45:31.55
sandy
So yeah, yeah, well I was shocked when he told that I did not expect that it was like well.
45:42.74
heymarvelous
Thought was really moving to listen to. And yeah, yeah, yeah, talk about bees. It's a beautiful conversation. It's ah it's a beautiful conversation between 2 people who are trying to live their lives in a big meaningful way and it's it's.
45:48.73
sandy
And he talks about bees which makes me happy. Um.
45:55.78
sandy
Yeah I've really really really actually from that conversation listening to that conversation. This I think both of those men really in the past have inspired like Tim Ferriss was a huge influence in my.
46:01.94
heymarvelous
Yeah, that's.
46:13.88
sandy
Life when that book came out for 4 hour work week. Um, and it I just it was really um, introduced I guess to him like I kind of haven't I for the last couple years I've just like pushed away all the men and all the thinkers and all the people. Who I used to follow who really got me started in online and I've sort of faced that we need to have a whole their podcast about this like really turned to women and like what are women saying and I've forgotten how good the stuff that the men are making like so good and so I started following Tim Ferriss on insta on so you see it's such a habit to say that on Twitter.
46:35.32
heymarvelous
Um, yeah.
46:49.69
sandy
And I saw that he interviewed Kevin Kelly did you know this and there about what heresies do you believe or something it sounds like so good. So anyway I don't think I would have found that on Instagram but anyway such a good interview Tim Ferriss a thing's called Tim Ferriss show
46:53.32
heymarvelous
I think I knew this but I didn't I haven't listened to it. Ah um, ah.
47:07.25
heymarvelous
Yeah.
47:09.21
sandy
Um, Seth Godin it's one of the recent um podcasts and it's June of 2023 right now so you can find it hustle is a book. Um, called the courage to be disliked and neither of us have finished it. But I feel like it's one of those books that every business owner needs to read if you are working out there in the world and and saying things and worried about what people are going to say about you or judge you. It's based on Adler. The psychologist.
47:29.46
heymarvelous
And.
47:39.84
heymarvelous
Um.
47:42.25
sandy
Who was in the time of um of Jung and freud and it's written the style of like a story like a philosopher and a student like um celesting prophecy kind of style like there I don't know there's a name for that kind of like they teach through a conversation. Um.
47:50.40
heymarvelous
Yeah.
47:57.96
heymarvelous
Um.
47:59.74
sandy
And it's very much mindset. It's very much plays into the training that I've had um, but it's just a little different angle or flavor to the same material and I'm really enjoying it. It's making me think about things a little bit differently.
48:11.46
heymarvelous
Yeah, and I will just say so my you know big fear of being canceled that I've voiced for many months now like since I decided I wanted to start speaking my truth and my mind like and and wrestling with this so this book was like highly recommended. To me by like a coach and mentor which was it was basically he said the same thing like everyone needs to read this but like you need to read this right now. Just read this book like this will quell that issue you're having and I think um, yeah I need to finish the book. But I think that that.
48:48.87
heymarvelous
All of us have spent the last just because of the pandemic honestly living in fear for 3 years and so it's such an important choice to go and immerse yourself in in something that's like anti fear.
48:50.28
sandy
Is.
49:00.54
sandy
Yeah, yeah, no I think it's I think it's good. Can probably finish it this weekend. Okay, so that's the episode we are leaving Instagram we are going to Twitter if you want to follow us there.
49:07.80
heymarvelous
Yeah.
49:18.84
sandy
At Sandy conary where I'm just doing my own personal name I'm going to be amplifying. Ah.
49:20.15
heymarvelous
Yeah, yeah, I'm in there you can find me if you really want to and um I I think we should just mention really fast sandy that we are not quitting our software company is not quitting Instagram and Facebook because it has its own.
49:33.82
sandy
Right? right? Grand yeah.
49:37.57
heymarvelous
We have a team member that runs that account and that's it has its own kind of workflows and its own brand presence and we have a very different non-personal reason for being there and so that's not what we're talking with if you see marvelous over on Instagram like hey I thought you guys were leaving like that's we don't run that haven't run that account for years.
49:47.92
sandy
Yes, yes, yes, that's that's not that. Yeah but it is like it isn't again we think about it. It's intentional. There's a ah Brand Brand awareness. Our.
49:56.48
heymarvelous
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
50:00.93
sandy
Our wellness people our teachers our coaches out there are on Instagram so it's very strategic that why we're going to going to stay there.
50:02.23
heymarvelous
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and and until something changes will be there and you know we feature new features and we feature like customer success stories and whatever and I think it's fine. It's fine and it's it doesn't yeah it's pretty. It's a pretty.
50:12.20
sandy
Um, yeah, and the graphics are beautiful.
50:21.64
heymarvelous
Little it's all in line with everything Instagram so all right? Well thank you Sandy for having this conversation I'm excited to talk more about these things and for everyone listening. Thank you for your time and we'll see you next week
50:26.14
sandy
Um, yeah, happy to.
50:38.12
sandy
Bye bye.