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A podcast about fascinating professionals, how they got to where they are and where they’re going from the lens HR, Recruitment and People Operations hosted by Martin Hauck.
Charles Fortier (00:00.971)
Totally.
Marty (00:02.49)
Cool. All right. All right. So today, on from a people perspective, we have Charles and Angela from lead HR Charles Angela Welcome.
Angela (00:15.955)
Thank you. Hello.
Charles Fortier (00:16.267)
Hello?
Marty (00:18.582)
So, yeah, Charles and Angela are our partners of the people people group. So first off, thank you for, for doing that, helping support and grow the community. It's, super meaningful and, and allows us to do all the other cool things that we do. So thank you very much for that. yeah, yeah. And, in terms of getting started the last three or four episodes, I have just like,
Angela (00:37.769)
No problem, thank you.
Marty (00:47.67)
Tell me about yourself. I'd love to hear about your career history. And then afterwards I'm like, no, we forgot to do the icebreakers. So I do the icebreakers after the introductions and it's really awkward. So we're gonna, we're gonna start the proper way today is I'm in the presence of professionals and, and it's, we're gonna, we're gonna get it, get this right. So starting with you, Charles.
Charles Fortier (01:13.803)
Yes.
Marty (01:16.372)
Something crazy has happened to Spotify and the world and all music albums and all musicians have disappeared from the face of the earth except for one and it's your choice as to which one is still here still playing.
Charles Fortier (01:24.981)
Yes.
Charles Fortier (01:31.809)
my God, that is equally hard and equally easy at the same time, because boiling down to one is the challenge, but I would have like probably like three or four like that could give you. But I'm going to give away my age and I'm going to say 10 from Pearl Jam is definitely the one album that would be the first one to come back in my collection or the one that I would hold on to the most.
Probably one of the most influential album in my life as it came in my teen years. And it was just like a breath of fresh air at that time. And funny enough, like I listened to this album, you know, once in a while. And every time I listened to it, I get, you know, I travel back to, you know, what was it? 1992, 1991, like something like that. Like instantly I can feel exactly
how I was as a teenager back then. So that's my pick.
Marty (02:31.744)
You can can feel your acid wash genes.
Charles Fortier (02:34.793)
Yeah, my plaid shirts. My hair is just growing like instantly. Yeah, you're there. I'm long gone from that, but yes.
Marty (02:42.218)
I'm still there. I never left.
Marty (02:49.188)
Awesome. So is the album is called 10? Yeah, I never I never caught the Pearl Jam bug. But I know people who have like it's either like you don't you know, their songs are good. And I'm not saying saying that to like they're good songs. But there's definitely like a cult following of like, it's just like not every band has that it's interesting. They've done something special there.
Charles Fortier (02:53.121)
10. Yes. Yeah.
Charles Fortier (02:58.91)
No.
Charles Fortier (03:05.025)
Yeah.
Charles Fortier (03:14.817)
It was the one two punch of Nirvana, Nevermind and Pearl Jam that they all swooped in at the same time. killed rock, traditional 80s rock and just swooped in with the grunge era. That was an important part of my life, definitely.
Marty (03:34.858)
Interesting interesting Angela over to you
Angela (03:37.971)
my gosh, my story is not nearly as exciting or interesting as Charles. I mean, if you can imagine me in my 80s self, I was a Wham, Madonna, know, so Culture Club, this is like all my jam, right? So my definite one would really be a toss up between Prince and Madonna, but it has to be Madonna's Like A Virgin album.
It was like, it was like holiday and you know, Papa don't preach. Like these were like grow up coming of age songs for me. And yeah, and like some of my very first concerts, right, as a teenager, like we're in that, we're in that genre, George Michael and Madonna and whatever. yeah, it would have to be Madonna. I cannot go still in my...
Marty (04:07.937)
Yeah.
Marty (04:17.93)
Yeah. Yeah.
Angela (04:35.015)
my Apple music without a recirculation of Madonna songs.
Marty (04:40.396)
She's on full rotation and rightfully so, incredible magician as well. interesting. No, we're learning lots today. We're learning lots today.
Angela (04:42.685)
Yup.
Angela (04:50.569)
Well, age for sure, Martin. Age for sure.
Charles Fortier (04:53.985)
Yeah, it's like now that's out in the wild now. Okay.
Marty (04:59.028)
I mean, nobody's judging. This is a safe space.
Charles Fortier (05:03.233)
We say the same thing to our customers, Martin. That's good.
Marty (05:07.084)
And so you've got a zero calorie pass for the day. What what where you had it and this is this could be a segue. Charles.
Angela (05:07.123)
Thank
Charles Fortier (05:22.945)
God, just like hard hitting questions to start this. Listen, that's a little bit more challenging, but I will go with my French Canadian roots. And I would say like a good poutine is something that I would love to jump into on that day, that's for sure. Also, all you can eat sushi is great.
Marty (05:27.883)
haha
Charles Fortier (05:52.415)
is great, like any time of the week, that's fine as well. So I think that would be my two choices.
Marty (05:59.414)
That's fair. That's fair. Any sushi joints, go to sushi joints?
Charles Fortier (06:04.129)
Well, I'm a beacher, right? I live in the beaches area in Toronto. So there's one all you can eat on Queen Street that's called Bikuri. And it's a small little joint. I've been going there for, you know, as long as I've been living in Toronto for 20 years. The owner is super nice. He's always in the back in the counter doing the sushi. It's always fresh. It's always good. Like that's definitely my recommendation.
Marty (06:13.953)
Mm -hmm.
Marty (06:30.92)
Awesome. Awesome. Angela.
Angela (06:33.321)
I have to go sweets. If it's like no calorie, anything I want, I'm like bathing in heavenly hash ice cream. Like I am literally, I'm literally surrounded with like two spoons in ice cream. I'll even like vary up the flavor, but it's gotta be ice cream for sure.
Marty (06:55.5)
Yeah, 100%. Yeah. All right. And recommendations on ice cream joints.
Angela (07:00.633)
my gosh, well, I'm in the West end of Toronto. So they just opened up a new core this ice cream shop.
Marty (07:08.65)
big news.
Angela (07:09.905)
in Burlington. my gosh. And literally the ice cream is the size of your face. That's how big the ice cream portions are.
Marty (07:20.108)
I was, that was the question. if, if for the Toronto, Ontario folks, right. 100 % 100 % and you, you drive to, you know, when you go to cottage country on one of the routes, there's that core. This, have you been to that? So when we heard the news that quarters was coming to this podcast brought to you by quarter ice cream, I hope. yeah, yeah. Well, this is a reverse engineer. This, ideal.
Angela (07:24.357)
It is worth the drive. Yes. Yes.
Angela (07:35.625)
Mm
Charles Fortier (07:43.585)
Let's go get that sponsorship. Yeah.
Marty (07:50.226)
Angela you're cut in on this right we'll see what we can do for sushi as well but we on the road the portion sizes are insane yes yeah
Angela (07:52.395)
Yeah.
Charles Fortier (07:53.568)
Ha ha ha!
Angela (08:00.209)
reasonably priced. I cannot believe the price tag you can get literally it feels like a quart of ice cream on a cone for like five bucks and like you where can you go and get that much ice cream? It's crazy. It's crazy. And that place sells chocolate milk and all their milk products and all that stuff. So if you're a coerthas fan, you got to get there.
Marty (08:06.923)
Yeah.
Marty (08:13.398)
Yeah. For the parents listening. Yeah.
Marty (08:23.05)
Yeah, yeah, very good. Very good. And yeah, that's it. We can call it a day. I think we've done enough. For the parents that that are listening to this, do not get the kitty cone because like the kitty cone is still ginormous. Let's like take the kitty cone, cut it in half and then cut it in half again. And then that that's enough. Like it's otherwise you're you're just gonna have some like sugar fueled kid for the next week. It's insane. All right, last last one.
what was your first gig? What was your first paid job? Angela, we'll start with you this time.
Angela (08:59.625)
my gosh, you're gonna laugh at this one. Okay, so my mother, it comes from a long line of entrepreneurs and my mother had many, many businesses in my life and my very first paid job, I made $27. I'll never forget, because my mom used to give it to me in small bills so that I could count it. It would be in a brown envelope, know, those little paycheck envelopes.
27 bucks and it was she was she had many Texaco stations back in the day when Texaco was a gas station and She opened a little donut shop so that I could have a summer job inside one of the areas on the property where the Texaco was and So we used to used to be this little donut shop I was like 12 or 13 and I'd go to work in the summer with my mom and I would sell
That was my very first job.
Marty (10:02.092)
That's brilliant. That's like baked in daycare, but also like education and all the things that one would need for a bright future in leadership training.
Angela (10:03.581)
Ha ha ha ha!
Angela (10:07.657)
Totally. Totally.
Angela (10:15.817)
Totally. I was slinging donuts and diet cokes all over the place.
Charles Fortier (10:18.975)
Hahaha
Marty (10:23.808)
Yeah, wild. Charles?
Charles Fortier (10:24.705)
That's nice. I didn't even know that. I didn't even know that. Like, I'm learning things today and we've been working together for 20 years. That's awesome.
Marty (10:31.948)
20 years 20 years wild there we go
Charles Fortier (10:36.021)
That's awesome. My first job, so my dad used to work for a company called Richie Brother Auctioneers, which is a big auction company, one of the biggest around the world. And back then they were much smaller. But what they do is that they buy trucks and construction materials from companies and they auction them off. So my first job was to go around a lot.
couple of days before the auction to wash the trucks, put the right signage on each truck so when they would go on the ramp and to be auctioned, they would be all nice and shiny. So I was probably 14, 15 at the time. Doing that was a great job, great environment. I really loved it.
Marty (11:27.476)
Nice, Interesting. Interesting how in both stories, the parents kind of like helped and nudge obvious. mean, parents, right? That's kind of falls under their responsibility list of like, but it's cool to see that they pushed. They both created opportunities so that you could get, cause not every household or family has that kind of dynamics. Some of them are like,
Angela (11:55.251)
True.
Marty (11:56.864)
You either you're like, okay, like once you're finished school, then you can go find something or you have to find it on your own, that sort of thing. So that was, that's, that's, that's an interesting, interesting thing. not what we're here to talk to talk about today. but, very interesting to, know. So, I, I failed to make any correlations immediately, but, as they come up, I'll see if we can loop some of these metaphors.
back into the into the conversation. So you, you two are the founders, owners, operators, do all the thingers for lead HR would love to just get a high level overview of, you know, the you've been working together for a bit of time now. So we'd love to just, there's, there's some interesting lenses that you probably have in terms of like market dynamics, how leadership has changed.
Charles Fortier (12:28.948)
Exactly.
Marty (12:56.118)
how people work has changed. So how did this all come about? We'll start with you, Charles.
Charles Fortier (13:04.705)
Yeah, well, you know, Angela and I have been working together on and off for the last 20 years. And it started back at a time when we were both working for the same recruitment company. And I was working in Montreal, Angela was working in Toronto, and we got introduced because we were working on some similar clients. it was, you know, there's, there's, there's
you know, a handful of people that you meet in your life that instantly you get along with and you kind of, you know, you're on the same brainwave. It was exactly that for us, like instantly. And that was the start of, you know, a 20 year working relationship that we had no clue would unfold the way that it unfolded. We decided five years ago to,
you know, leave our corporate job and take a chance into a passion project that we had, which was around trying to help leaders understand more their emotions and their emotional intelligence and understand how this could bring them to increase their level of influence that they have to the eyes of their teams, to the eyes of their organizations, that their peers, the people that they work with. So we decided to make that big jump.
And five years later, we're super happy to be a part of your ecosystem, Martin, and being included in your world. In the day to day of what we do is that we help organizations primarily and we offer emotional intelligence assessments. We offer emotional intelligence training and coachings for leaders across all levels of an organization.
So we work with senior executives. We've worked also with people that are entering their first few jobs in leadership and trying to get a better handle of that. And it's been like, it's been an incredible journey. Like it's been, it's been great. What would you add Angela to that? Did I miss any crucial?
Angela (15:14.345)
No, I think I always when we say that I always think to myself 20 years, what the heck? That's not possible. I'm only like in my 30s. But you know, it's it's so true, right? Like, and then figured out ourselves to find ourselves working in the same places and several companies over the time. And I think, you know, when we got to our last
Marty (15:26.847)
Hahaha
Angela (15:40.763)
You know, this last gig we've been on, was this idea that I remember Charles and I many times just sitting there thinking, my God, how different would an organization be or look like if their leaders had more emotional intelligence? And, know, we started from a place of both Charles and I of trying to improve our own leadership, right? We were both leaders in different, you know, disciplines.
We both ran organizations at different levels and in different places. you know, and like many of the people we meet, and I'm sure like you, Martin, we had our share of good leaders and not so good leaders that we, you know, would chalk up a lot of what we could articulate as, wow, if this person had better relationships, if they...
had more ability to be more self -aware, if they had more ability to express themselves, wouldn't the world of work look a lot different? And that was all emotional intelligence. And so when we got down to it, like, we found a business that we really personally benefited from and then could also work with other leaders on. And that's been just super rewarding.
Marty (16:44.641)
Hmm.
Angela (17:03.591)
And it's been a fast five years, right? mean, gosh.
Charles Fortier (17:05.793)
you have super fast.
Marty (17:09.612)
actually want to dive into a pretty deep question right off the bat. So forgive me for not starting off slow, but one could argue that we did some icebreakers.
Marty (17:25.29)
When you have this assessment and you complete this assessment for clients, right? I'm sure there's folks that don't do very well in terms of emotional intelligence. What's the conversation and how do you navigate that conversation when you're informing someone that their emotional intelligence
Like, you know, they're, have the ability to, read a document or whatever the result is and feel free to like in kind of paint, paint a picture of what that whole process looks like. But in my mind, I'm like, what if, what if the person's just terribly not great with emotional intelligence and then you're delivering that news to them? So it's, it's this awkward of like, by the way. yeah.
you're, kind of lacking on this like thing that people expect other people to have. That's, it's, you know, one thing to like, it's hard enough to tell somebody they've got something stuck in their teeth, but then to go to them and say, of which neither of you have, like, this isn't like a wing, like you're, you're both fine. This is going to be great on video, but like, but like, that's hard enough. Like, how do you do that for like, by the way, there's a lot of things lacking from an emotional perspective in your leadership.
Charles Fortier (18:34.741)
Thank
Angela (18:40.937)
Thanks.
Marty (18:51.805)
and just style of communication.
Charles Fortier (18:54.793)
I think that the key there for us and what we take a lot of time to think about is that before launching a group of leaders into an assessment, have to set up a little bit the mood and the reason of why people are going to take this journey. And when you take time to explain that emotional intelligence is about first and foremost, it's about self -discovery. It's about having a better understanding of who we are.
a better understanding of how emotions impact the way that we show up when we're charged up negatively, but at same time when we're charged up positively. And that in the grand scheme of things, there's no real good or bad. It is just the way it is. And the assessment is not there to tell people what you're doing wrong.
but it's there to create a baseline of reflection for people to have the ability to see how potentially they react in certain situations. So the hardest thing or one of the hardest thing for a leader to do in the day to day of the craziness of the business that we all do is stopping and having a moment of self reflection and thinking about ourselves and how we feel and how it's going and what's going on in our lives.
And what the assessment does very well is that it offers you the opportunity to stop and then put this, you know, hypothetical mirror in front of yourself and give you some feedback on some of these behaviors that you have. And to start that reflection journey on maybe helping you understand like what helps you when you react this way in certain situations and maybe
You know, what is to your detriment also sometimes in other situations. And when, when you frame the experience that way and you help understand the people that this is what it's for, then you're starting on the right foot. Then you're starting right at the, you know, at the winning pace. and that, that makes a big difference how people will live their results. Cause yes.
Marty (20:48.758)
Mm.
Marty (21:01.185)
Yeah.
Angela (21:12.073)
Yeah.
Charles Fortier (21:13.311)
We meet people that have higher high results and we meet people that have lower results. but even if you have high results, it's, doesn't mean that there's nothing to reflect on. Does it mean there's nothing that you could potentially improve on as well? Cause in emotional intelligence, sometimes like even high scores have drawbacks, you know, in, know, take an easy example, like, you know, if you're very high in empathy, which would
Marty (21:35.605)
Mm.
Charles Fortier (21:42.847)
definitely most of the time be praised by people that work for you if you're high empathy, because that means that you think about them. So you think about your team, you think about how they feel. But if you deploy too much empathy all the time, that can come also to your detriment as a leader of maybe sometimes you have to take the hard decisions that are not going to please everybody. And can you deal with that situation? And when you're higher in empathy, that can make it.
quite challenging to do.
Angela (22:11.515)
It's hard. Yeah, it's harder. It's definitely harder, right? And then you lose the balance and that, and in the situation of a leader, the balance is really the key to Charles's point, because over -indexing or under -indexing in a particular area can have equally beneficial or less beneficial places for you. And that just becomes more the narrative of like, what are the insights that I can get as a leader?
Marty (22:23.361)
Mm.
Angela (22:40.871)
that helped me think about the way I show up as the best version of myself.
Marty (22:46.262)
Hmm. And no, go ahead.
Charles Fortier (22:47.649)
Yeah, I was just going to close that out by saying that the setup is so, so, important in organizations. When you go see people and say, hey, you're going to do an assessment on your emotions, people look at you like, yeah, what do you mean? I'm not sure I want to have an assessment on emotion in the context of work.
because that's usually not something that people talk about. That's not like a topic that goes around in the organizations. So that set up of explaining like what you're trying to accomplish and why is it for, and it's for your personal development. That changes a lot, like the perception that people may have about doing an assessment on EQ.
Marty (23:35.156)
Angela in, in this, the last five years of doing this, I imagine you've both encountered clients or more specifically leaders at a client's company that have a pretty serious apprehension maybe to, doing this. then curious to, to know what sort of that
outcome after the fact, right? Maybe they needed a little bit more coaxing or maybe they needed just more information to Charles's point of just like setting the expectation upfront. But for the people that are clearly apprehensive about it, have you seen some interesting turnaround stories where they like swing the opposite spectrum, I guess, or what was your take?
Angela (24:25.191)
Yeah, for sure. think what's interesting about, and maybe just to get to the answer to your question, I think what's interesting about even when we talk to organizations, right, is that, yes, we talk about emotions at work and we talk about the benefit of what they are, but the real interesting piece of when, if I talk to a CEO is, look, you want people to make better decisions in your organizations? Yes.
You want people to have better relationships? Yes. You want them to be able to like be optimistic, be innovative, know, know, push your organization forward. The answer is always yes and yes. Great. Well, these are the competencies that are the skills that are required for you in emotional intelligence. So this idea that, you know, and I don't want CEO one time to be saying he was like, seriously, Angie, like you want me to sit around and hold hands and we'll do combined. And I was like,
No, no, no, no, no, no. Don't misunderstand me. you're talking about your emotions at work is not a woo woo like, you know, thing, a piece. It is real business outcomes that you have people who every day experience hundreds of emotions and the way they experience them is impacting how they show up in your business, how they talk to your customers, how they talk to their employees, whether they get people to retain their employees or not, the employee experience that they have.
Marty (25:42.891)
No.
Angela (25:51.213)
All of those things have a direct impact around how people feel about themselves. And unless you actually spend time working in that and having the opportunity to actually reflect in that, which is what we do, then you go about the busyness of your day, never really spending time on why you lose it every time somebody comes to your meeting late five minutes. Well, there's like...
There's a deep rooted piece to that and that we're trying to like have a dialogue about, right? And understanding for people why that happens to them and what they could do differently to show up better. And so we have lots of experiences where, you know, HR or human resources who we may talk to says, yes, we'd like to explore this kind of work inside our organization. And, and I mean some like tough organizations too, like
And think engineering organizations with like project managers and people that, you know, don't typically do this kind of work builders and, know, what would you would consider to be more, you know, difficult industries that maybe don't spend as much time in this section of soft skills, soft skill development.
and, and the change that comes when you can actually link those to business outcomes, because you can link all of those soft skill, those soft, that soft skill learning to business outcomes. And there's tons of research that shows that this is actually true, right? That this is actually helps workplace performance. And so when you can get there, that's one thing. And then Martin, when people experience our programs and they go through our programs,
You know, some of the things that they come back with are like, wow, that was like, I didn't really think about it that way because the work we do is grounded in like, what's the work workplace application? What's the scenario having a difficult conversation, having to basically tell somebody, you know, to set clear expectations. It's, know, all these things that happen in our day to day business life that we use real application for so that that's relatable to them so that they can actually.
Angela (28:05.671)
you know, experience it in a way that's meaningful to them, which can significantly change the way people feel about having a conversation about this topic.
Charles Fortier (28:17.025)
Oftentimes, even if people maybe at first are not, you know, they're a little bit chalk about their results and what that means. It's more often than not, it ends with thank you, this was transformative and understanding myself and giving me like tracks that I can, you know, explore in order to maybe show up differently. Because I would say most of the time,
Marty (28:31.648)
Hmm.
Charles Fortier (28:45.601)
people will at some point in conversation will say, yeah, know, discourse represent who I am. Like it's a good representation of me. And you know, you can feel that there's a portion of there where there's things there that maybe people are, you know, not super happy to voice and they're surprised that it's showing up. But at the same time, it's there and it's true. And now it gives them an opportunity to look at this objectively
and make an educated decision on what they want to do about that and how that can then change their day to day and change the experience that they have, you know, on top of changing the experience of other people that are in the business with them.
Marty (29:30.752)
Yeah. No, interesting. The it's, it's a, it's interesting that it's so far removed from the day to day, right? If it's such a huge impact to how people show up at work, right. But there's no real dialogue around it. Typically.
In terms of well, this is you know, so and so is doing this because of this, you know, half the time it's because they don't even know themselves to a degree, right? And which is why there's there's the need for self reflection, I guess.
Marty (30:09.216)
There is this aspect of sort of you hear about companies, every company has their own culture, right? And I'm curious to hear from your perspectives.
Are there cultures out there in companies that are sort of, you know, you have to even get to the place where you would be able to extract value from engaging with Lead HR or just engaging with the practice of talking about emotions and how they talking about emotional intelligence or emotions at work is, you have those instances where it's like, thank you, we know
You've identified you have a problem, but you're not ready for the work you think you need to do because there's other work, more foundational, more one -on -one, so to speak. Is that something that sort of comes up or exists, or is it more of like people reach out and you will come up with a way to sort of like help them get to where they need to be so that they can extract value from the thing that you do on a regular basis with clients.
Angela (31:25.415)
I think there's like two, like anything, there's like two, two mindsets of that, right? Charles and I are very distinct on the fact that we're not going to convince anybody to do emotional intelligence work, right? Like they, they convince them meaning that they have no interest in like sort of pursuing those soft skills. have no interest in, you know, or can see the connection between how the person shows up and how these things can help. There are some, some organizations that we talked to that
emotional intelligence is not the place that they're going to invest their time and their money because they're not at that spot of being in a place to be able to get there yet. And that's fine. like in every business, it's like, okay, that's not the customer for us either right now, or maybe we'll never be the customer for us. But moreover, there are more customers and more clients in the marketplace that understand that
in order that that leadership development is a journey that there are multiple areas or multiple places and multiple inserts to that journey. And that is becoming much more and more that if I can get my leader to be more self -aware, if I can help them understand themselves, this will ultimately help my business. And as soon as that, that more, that road is shorter, that connection is shorter, then there's
more often than not, always a place to have a dialogue. Now it's about how does it align to your culture? How does it align to your values as an organization? What do you care about in your organization? Can we make these things marry? Not only that, do you have a leadership competency framework? Perhaps that is, you know, that we could leverage, that we could connect some of these behaviors to. And when we can do that, it makes it super meaningful for the organization, for sure.
Marty (33:21.921)
I've...
We might have to cut this out, who knows, but.
Marty (33:29.872)
I feel like... companies.
when they say they have these values.
It's all the same. it like, it feels very much like, how do you say we want ambitious, hardworking, dedicated, trustworthy employees and that we value this a million different ways. And so having the lens of, you know, 20 years of being in this space,
but also seeing like the evolution of how companies are creating their cultures or trying to foster and guide cultures. Part of me is like, can we just get back to some of the basics on some of this stuff and just admit like there's, these are all the same things that companies typically want or am I a little bit off to say that, to kind of lump it all together and know like they're,
each company's going to want something uniquely different because ultimately we're all in this bigger system and economy and whatnot. And they have to play within certain rules. so those behaviors kind of report to the shareholders. And so that creates a whole system of behaviors across the board. guess like, what's, what's your take on, that? And I know that's pretty broad, but
Charles Fortier (35:00.577)
I think when we think about values, you can look at it from different levels. think based on your comment, I would push back a little bit to say that the importance that is attributed to values within an organization changes a lot from one organization to the other.
Whereas you'll have some organization that, yeah, we have the five values on the wall, but the values manual is in the last drawer of your desk, and it's been there for 15 years, and it hasn't necessarily come out. You have other organizations that we have worked with that put a lot of passion and an effort in trying to make those live as much as they can.
in trying to find ways to communicate them, you know, on a regular basis. But even more importantly, and this is where I think that a lot of organization maybe is something that they can think about more, is also helping people understand in the day to day, what does that mean? If you have a value as people, yeah, you know, generally I can agree on what the concept of people is, and I'll have my own interpretation of what that means.
as an organization, how do I empower my people to understand what does my value mean? And then on top of that, what are the actions that are celebrated in the organization that represents that value? And I think this is where sometimes there's a gap that organizations don't do that extra work or we're all busy, so I'm not throwing any stones at anybody here.
Marty (36:35.52)
Mm.
Charles Fortier (36:46.187)
but of demonstrating, showcasing, you know, good behaviors that lead to that value, I think that makes a big difference. And when those behaviors are then modeled across the organization by different important figures within the organization, that shows up a different way. And that resonates definitely a different way with people that walk in, you know, every day in.
you know, in the business. And based on why we like so much emotional intelligence also is that it gives you a way. It gives you a way to parse out your values and to establish those behaviors and ultimately, you know, tell your people to hate, you know, people, know, the overarching people in our organization. That means these five things, right? Or that means these, you know, it means recognizing it means like,
so on and so forth, and being able to give training and tracks for people to use and to implement in their day -to -day is, I think, sometimes the gap that...
people in big organizations need to think about.
Marty (38:02.464)
Yeah, no, thank you. It's even even as I asked the question, obviously, I'm thinking, and I don't know that I necessarily feel it's a very it sounds like I'm jaded maybe right? Like, you know, this is, there's this it's all been done before kind of thing. But there's also a pattern to it right that you end up seeing.
across the board. then it becomes a valid question to a certain extent, but that's helpful to know. I'm wondering, thinking of one of your favorite clients, do you have a story of
Angela (38:33.425)
Mm
Marty (38:44.47)
just not necessarily the favorite client, but.
I'm thinking of when you worked with a client and you came in expecting one thing, right? You just sort of like, you know, finger in the air, check the pulse on, on what's going on here. You, you had all these preconceived notions and there was the most transformational like, wow, I like everything I thought was true about this, you know, from the very beginning, you know, having gone through the experience, it was actually different and way, way more exciting to work with them.
and invigorating and I guess, you know, way more rewarding to have worked with them. Do do any stories come to mind that you can share and don't have to share company names, but.
Angela (39:32.893)
Yeah, you want to take one first, Charles?
Charles Fortier (39:35.085)
I'm going to talk to the generality of my experience now doing this for five years. I think in the early years that we were doing this, was expecting that people to have maybe some barriers to talking about these things. And that I was expecting that there would be an equal
of people that liked the topic versus didn't like or didn't believe in the topic. And then the reality of where I am at after five years is that there is way more people that love this and find helpfulness in the topic and want to talk about the topic and don't have the opportunity in the daily course of what they do to invest time to do these types of things. And that for me,
is what gets me to come back every day. Because of the feedback that we get and also because of the conversation I have with people. We do group settings, we do one -on -one also with people. When you get to sit down with somebody and talk about their leadership, talk about what they want to improve or what they're thinking about, you go at the core of who that person is.
And I'm going to tell you, there's a lot of great people out there. There's a lot of great people, people that want to succeed, people that want to win, people that want to improve. And they understand that they're not perfect. And there are some things that they need to think about. at the core, there are great individuals, great, great, great individuals. And that has been great for me. And that makes my job very rewarding to be able to offer somebody a space to
to first of all talk about it in a non -threatening way, in a very safe space where we can talk about the real things and not have to try to masquerade or to camouflage like here and there and take it at where it is and try to decide like together or by talking about it like, hey, what can we do with this and what would be beneficial for you? And that gave me
Marty (41:41.238)
Hmm.
Charles Fortier (41:58.825)
you know, a lot of hope, a lot of hope, because in some ways, like I've been in large organizations, I know how it goes. I know how easy it is to judge your colleagues, judge your peers because of their behaviors, because of how they show up. And sometimes we lose the human aspect of people within our organizations because we see them only under the lens of work and under the lens of their expertise. And when we have the opportunity to go a little bit deeper on that,
Marty (42:22.006)
Hmm.
Charles Fortier (42:29.307)
and take a look at the insight and what is driving people, what is motivating them. We get a totally different perspective on people. Totally different perspective. And that has been very good for me in last five years.
Angela (42:45.417)
I was thinking of my answer to this and I was like, you know what? That one's just like, that just hits all the things. just like, and on that note, I'm like, woo, this is why we deal with the customers we deal with, right? Like this is why we do the work we do. Cause that is like, mwah, yes.
Marty (42:49.132)
It's good to hear.
Charles Fortier (43:06.241)
Sometimes we have clients, they're like, so how were our people? And they're a bit tentative, right? Because they don't know necessarily how their people react to the coaching, to the training. And we're like, you have awesome people. And they go, really? Is it like now they're like, they're feeling the proudness of, you know, understanding that their people are invested in this and they take this with all the seriousness in the world and try to do something.
Marty (43:15.722)
Mmm.
Charles Fortier (43:35.691)
Because it is important for that organization also to give back, to give the opportunity to this individual to think differently, to move forward, to accomplish what they're passionate about. And man, that makes my day every day, every day.
Marty (43:51.444)
Yeah, no, it's I can I can only imagine how, how rewarding it is. And having done some consulting myself in the last two or three years, there's nice moments there where you can say, you know that this little thing here that I did, it, you know, we helped them hire this person, we helped them decide not to hire this profile or
specific job, but we converted it into this and that was actually the right thing. you just, there's, yeah, no, it's, it's kind of a gift to be able to do the work that, that you're both doing and just in general to being in the business of people.
Angela (44:32.67)
Yes.
Charles Fortier (44:33.741)
And we come at it from a very understanding standpoint, like Angela was mentioning, like we were leaders, we led our own things. And we were far, well, I'll talk about me. I was far from being perfect in my approach of leadership. And, you know, if I knew back then, like what I know now and some of the experiences that I went through, like, of course there's some situations I would love to go back and do differently. Situations where...
you know, I tried to go too fast or situations where, you know, I did lack empathy of what was going on and how the team was feeling because I, I had the pressure, like I felt the pressure on my shoulders of, delivery of hitting the number of like use the, use the phrase that you want to use that everybody uses an organization and the way that I felt made me show up not the right way for that, for that specific situation. So there's a, there's a
bunch of areas I'd like to go back and take another crack at it. But at the same time, I'm grateful for that journey because that journey took me to where we are today at the same time.
Marty (45:42.014)
Angela, thinking back on the last five years doing this work, are there any sort of key milestones or aha moments that you can think of where you just had this inherent feeling like, I imagine to a degree, it might've felt like a risk to double down on this, right? Because you hadn't done it before. And before you do something, there's always the ambiguity and the doubts and the self, all that fun nonsense that the brain conjures up.
But I guess, was there an aha moment, you're like, we're on the right path. I'm curious to know if there's any stories that come to mind there.
Angela (46:23.465)
Yeah, I think there's two things. One is that Charles and I are relentless in getting feedback, right? So whenever we go somewhere, do something, present, put ourselves in front or in the face of, we look for feedback. That has been really instrumental in us making sure that the stories we tell resonate, that the...
things we do matter, to be able to course correct when we get feedback that is different than the way we saw it. So we iterate, we practice, one of our core rituals and one of our core values in our own culture is with our teams is to practice, is to do before we actually get in front of the customer. And these things have helped us to.
iterate ourselves to make sure that we're actually showing up at the best versions of ourselves and that we're taking that feedback very seriously. So like I said, every, every instance we've done, every single workshop we've done, whether it's been a half an hour, an hour or 90 minutes a day, eight months, whatever that looks like that's been predicated on satisfaction surveys after every time.
feedback, what resonated, what's most useful to be able to give that back to ourselves and to our customers, which has made that data to be very important to us. And it's ensure and reassure and help us change where we needed to, which I think was a big moment for us. Comes a little bit from the background Charles and I come from, right? Where, you know, big organizations that was just...
like what you did, right? Like you measured everything. So we take that into our own company now and we do that. And that's been very helpful. So that reinforced what you're talking about by giving us aha moments that, okay, this works, this doesn't work. Okay, this would try this one this way, this way, that way. So that gave us good data to help us do that. I think an aha moment for me is that you actually alluded to it when you asked the question about it must be hard to like talk to people who have lower
Marty (48:40.783)
Mm
Angela (48:41.017)
scores in some areas. And I certainly would, again, I won't speak for Charles, but when I first started, if I saw somebody with lower scores and I was coaching them and I was doing the debrief for them, I immediately thought like, my God, this is horrible, right? Cause they have the lower scores and I felt this big responsibility to ensure that I manage them in a way that I was meeting them where they are.
And I always had felt that people with lower scores, that was going to be a harder conversation. And my own mental model, my own, you know, limited belief about this was that higher was easier and lower was harder. And in fact, in some ways lower is easier because these people in lots of instances, people have a realistic version of how they view themselves and, or
they have a deep desire to be better. And their self -actualization, which is one of the skills of emotional intelligence that we measure, is high. And so they predicate themselves on the fact that they want to learn, they want to do better, and they don't go into work with this malicious idea of being a bad bot, like being bad at what they do, but with this deep desire to be better. And so in that regard, that was kind of like a bit of a aha for me that...
Marty (49:42.581)
Hmm.
Angela (50:08.155)
It's very rewarding to have a conversation with somebody who sees the value in working on themselves. So those conversations in fact are easier than higher scores.
Marty (50:21.612)
Interesting.
Charles Fortier (50:23.009)
One of the interesting things that we've seen like in the last five years is that one of the other competencies that the assessment measures that we end up talking a lot about is the level of confidence of leaders. And you would be surprised to see that more leaders than not have less confidence. And that is sometimes a little bit
mind shifting because when we look at our leaders, you know, walk around the organization, do their things, oftentimes we would, we would peg leaders to be mostly confident in how they operate. And the case is other way around, I would say like 60 % of people that we measure have low confidence. So when you understand that, and then you
maybe relook at those behaviors, then you get a different reading and different understanding of maybe how people perceive situations and then react to the situations. And that sometimes can go a long way into explaining how somebody is going to show up in a certain situation.
Marty (51:36.276)
have to ask this question because it's in my brain and it won't get out in your personal lives. Like you're at the mall or you're you're you're at the and you encounter someone with like a low emotion. I this has to like I know stuff like I would never you know, as a recruiter and HR person by trade, like talking to an incredible
you know, server at a restaurant, like, man, I wish they wish I could get their resume or you get a terrible one. Like, my goodness, like this person, I can't even imagine. Like what's this person like on interviews? Just like those sorts of thoughts kind of come through my mind is, is, is EQ kind of living in your, both of your brains, like in your personal life as well, in terms of like, you know, when you're interacting with people and
Angela (52:12.691)
Yes.
Marty (52:22.688)
Does that give you a bit of an edge when you're like, well, this person seems to be at this state and I'm going to, you know, pull a Houdini and, turn, turn their day around just because you know where they are and they don't even know it themselves or I'm just curious.
Angela (52:38.845)
Yeah, it can. I certainly think it can. think what served us most at Lead HR with all of the folks who work with us is our sense of curiosity, our deep interest in understanding people and where they are. And so for me, you know,
I lots of times to your point, I'll be somewhere and somebody will say something or they'll do something. And my immediate reaction to that is, wow, what must they have going on in their life right now that forces them or thinks that it's okay to say that that way? Or, you know, I hear a leader in an organization that I'm in and I'm spending time in there and I hear something and I think, huh, my first question is not like, my first comment is not like, wow, that person's really a, you know,
Marty (53:30.73)
You
Angela (53:30.833)
not a nice person. My first comment is, my first thought is always, what must that person have going on that I'm not aware of that is causing them to behave like that? And that curiosity is what I think makes, one makes the work really interesting, but also two makes it so that my response then isn't a response to that, but rather a question.
or an ask or trying to meet them where they are.
Marty (54:02.07)
So is, does that mean that curiosity is sort of just like in a single word, the first thing you can do to become more emotionally intelligent is to start from a place of curiosity? Is that a simple framework to use or?
Angela (54:20.409)
It's a very good place to start as the other person. It's a very good place to start because it will force you automatically to not think about yourself and to, to, have a perspective of the other person. And as soon as you can have a perspective of the other person, you automatically get into a place where you are actually forcing yourself to pause like inadvertently and not react, but rather come from a place of.
your intellectual mind, as opposed to your impulse control or your expression to just automatically come back at that. So yeah, would say curiosity is a very good starting point that if you are a curious person, you probably have a lot easier ability to even start those conversations or think about those.
Charles Fortier (55:13.899)
We often say, Martin, let's not make any assumptions on anybody. If you start making assumptions, then you put yourself in a situation where you could be wrong. If you're capable of not being married to your first impression, and you're capable of pulling back from your first impression, and being curious to see if you can go and validate if that first impression is true or not,
Marty (55:19.804)
Mm -hmm. Hard to do.
Charles Fortier (55:42.047)
then you're flexing a lot of emotional intelligence. You're controlling yourself for making a judgment, a quick snap decision. And then also you're reaching out to the other person to understand what's going on with them. So you're flexing your empathy.
Marty (55:57.888)
Huh? So you, you need to be able to not be married to your first impression, but by nature of being human, you almost date the first impression pretty, pretty, you're at least dating them. And sometimes things get serious with your first impression. How do you break up with your first impression of a person before you even get married to it?
Charles Fortier (56:07.04)
Yeah.
Angela (56:08.317)
Yes.
Angela (56:16.675)
Hehehehehe
Angela (56:21.149)
Well, this is a skill. Yeah.
Charles Fortier (56:21.569)
You have to realize where you are. You have to first make the realization that you do this. Right? Like that's the starting point. And I think any good human being loves to judge people. Like it's easy to do, it's affordable, right? It's part of all of our skill set. But if you can have some mindfulness around...
Marty (56:27.3)
Hmm.
Marty (56:38.795)
You
Charles Fortier (56:48.865)
how sometimes maybe your first impression gets you down the wrong path, then you're ahead of the game of 50 % of the people.
Marty (57:00.83)
Interesting. Angela, you were going to chime in there before I have two more, two, three more questions and we can go.
Angela (57:05.949)
I was just gonna...
Yeah, I was just gonna add to that that the skill then that comes on top of that is your ability to use your flexibility, which many people sometimes say, yes, I'm flexible, right? I let my staff take holidays. let, you know, I'm easy where they work. And it's like, in emotional intelligence, the concept or the skill of flexibility is actually about your ability to change your mind about something. So, so.
If people meet me, they would know that a common thing that I say is, look, I'm not married to that answer. If you have a better solution or right, I could be convinced of something else. That's, that's a great skill to have as a leader because you can take other options. The downside to that skill, Martin though, is over -indexed that can show up as, or be perceived as, well, you just got to get to Angela first because you could change your mind pretty easy. Cause she's actually.
so flexible and she's not married to what's perhaps any idea that that will be, she will go wherever you know, you take her. And so that's the light and the dark side of all of the competencies that we have within us because every competency under indexed or over indexed or out of balance can show up differently for the leader. So you can see how just that concept of flexibility at both ends.
could either serve you well and not serve you in different contexts.
Marty (58:35.276)
Yeah, for sure. Emotions and therapy go hand in hand and oftentimes in the HR and recruitment space, I've heard CEOs, I've heard executives either comment that the PeopleOps team is too much into the emotional side of things or not specifically, they don't even talk about emotions, but they're just saying,
We're catering to people's, you know, the woo -woo side of things versus, actually driving business results and all that, like, you know, we're forgetting. so I imagine that is a challenge that a lot of people ops people face. Cause I've seen it so many times. It's such like a, it's a theme. and so I imagine when you're chatting with leaders and
you know, potential clients and existing clients and all that fun stuff and just companies in general, that there is an aspect of the conversation where you're giving them sort of like, well, here, here's the breadcrumbs you can leave to help make that conversation easier. I'm curious if if you can share some of those breadcrumbs.
Charles Fortier (59:56.757)
Yeah, there's many. I think for us, the starting point is emotions impact behaviors and behaviors impact your results. And if people don't have the right emotions or we don't set up the right context for people to feel a certain way, then their behaviors are going to be off track and they're not going to get to the results that you're trying to make.
And I'm going to give you an easy example in leadership of how emotions get you from one place to the other. You know, picture your typical leader of a team and picture the emotions of stress. Stress is an emotion. I know leaders that when they're mega stressed, they become an overindexed version of themselves. They become micromanagers, maybe a bully. You know, they start directing the work very pointedly. And that is going to get you to
certain results. know other leaders that have the same amount of stress and how they react to it is that they disappear. They go in their office, they close the door, they stop communicating with the team, they're less present and they leave the team like wondering like, where's the boss, right? Like we need direction, we need to know where we're going. We need to see what's the priority to see same emotion but different.
different behaviors and that definitely leads to different results. And I'm not suggesting that one is better than the other, but I'm suggesting that both maybe don't take you where you want to go as a business. So for us, it's really that foundational piece of understanding that which then can build on, you know, what do you want to do with your organization? What are you trying to reach?
Marty (01:01:32.553)
Mm. Mm.
Charles Fortier (01:01:49.289)
We talked about values a little bit earlier. We talked about leadership framework and having people demonstrate these behaviors. How do they get there? How do they flex that? And all of these things, in fact, results at the end of the day. And I'll steal a phrase from Angela. Angela always says to people or to potential clients or clients like, you know, your business is your people. Your people is your business.
Marty (01:02:03.83)
Hmm.
Charles Fortier (01:02:17.942)
They are the one pressing the buttons, talking to your customers, doing the reports. They are the ones doing that.
And as an employer, feel that we all have a responsibility of creating an environment to the best of our capabilities that's going to empower the right feelings in our employees that will lead us to the right behaviors and the right results.
Marty (01:02:48.204)
No, very helpful. Very helpful. Thank you. One, one last question on my end before we wrap. And that is our friend, artificial intelligence being talked about everywhere. I'm using it every day in a million different ways. It helps me make recipes, come up with dinner plans. I've
used it as sort of like a journaling tool. I'm sure there's varying levels of people's, embracing the technology and as savvy entrepreneurs and business owners, I'm curious because emotions aren't this thing that have really been, that's not like it's great at language and language represents emotions.
but I guess I'm curious just to hear what you're both curious about in terms of the technology and where it's going and how you think it's going to impact this aspect of, of work and the work that you do.
Charles Fortier (01:04:02.849)
Well, I'll go ahead and end this.
Angela (01:04:03.015)
Yeah, I think that, you know, at its baseline, even for us, we use it in our work day to day, right, to help us think about scenarios, places, things that will help us think about the circumstances that people find themselves, or the situations people find themselves in. I think what's interesting about, you know, these two concepts together is that
I believe that AI will continue to help leaders do the practical application of their leadership, meaning help them think about different ways that they could have a difficult conversation, right? Help them to use scenario -based work to think about how they could practice a role play. There's lots of ways that that could happen.
And I think that that will continue to happen around, you know, avatar based work and these things that can really help, you know, put stickiness around the implementation of that. I think what is not able to still do is to replicate or will take away the relationship.
that an employee and an employer or a boss and an employee have together. And I think that that is the thing that keeps people connected to their work. So I think, you know, we all know the true reality and I can use this in my own experience. I followed bosses to companies because I wanted to work for that person. And because that person made me feel something, they made me feel seen, they made me feel valued.
Marty (01:05:46.55)
Hmm.
Angela (01:05:52.933)
I was able to contribute. There were lots of reasons why that is. And even if I had lots of technology that helped me do that, I still had a personal connection that I think in work will still always exist. And so now, will that change it? Yes. Will it take it away? I don't believe so. And I think then what we want to get to is then the leader being able to understand how it can empower them and help them.
to be the human that they need to be. So to put these two things in the same place is not bad or wrong, but there will always be the element that the person needs the person. We are social beings that still need social interaction. And if I'm gonna go to work every day, I want it to be for a person that I respect, I care about, I think understands me, knows me, and values me. Whatever that looks like on the other piece of that, I think that that's still true.
Marty (01:06:24.918)
Hmm.
Angela (01:06:52.637)
no matter where that sits.
Charles Fortier (01:06:56.033)
And I'll add to that also by saying that AI is coming in, it's already everywhere, in 10 years it's going to be even more present in our day to day. And what is interesting is that if you go back to the future of job reports that were put together by the World Economic Forum in 2018, they were talking about the state of technology and how it was going into all of the areas of our lives.
And what's interesting about the report is that the skill that they feel that people need to be in order to be able to work with technology are mostly skills that are attached to how we feel in the first place. And there they have identified that if people are flexible, if people are resilient, if people understand their emotions and they work on their critical thinking, that's going to help them.
You know, also, you know, like kind of manage the impact that technology has on us on, on a day to day basis. So I think it can, it can help us like in, both of, in both of these ways. And it's, I think there was all, there were always needed. There were always need need. I can't talk anymore. There will always be a need for understanding ourselves and how we react to things. And technology is part of that.
Marty (01:08:26.333)
Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's, it's interesting because we don't know where it's going to go necessarily. can assume and anticipate, but I had no idea that I would be using AI the way I am. Let a year go, let alone five years ago. Right. At first it's like, this is clunky. You know, it's never going to take my job. That's like, wow. Right. Yeah. So that's really impressive.
That's good. it's just getting started too. but I think I, I mean, I don't follow the space as closely as you, but the, idea that
Marty (01:09:08.876)
you know, how it's going to be a choice, I think of how we want to spend our days. Right. And so if, we're, you know, to your point, Angela, about really wanting to, I go to work because, you know, I believe in the company's product or service or vision, and I want to help bring that to life or, and, and on top of that, I really enjoy.
Angela (01:09:15.422)
Okay.
Marty (01:09:36.096)
working with Charles and Angela, they're great, know, da da da da da. And if you become different people or, you know, a boss leaves and then all of a sudden you're reporting into someone else and you don't have a relationship with them and they're not taking the time to get to know who you are and da da da da da, of course I'm going to be disengaged, right? And I went through a very like to a T that example, like I joined a company which
Angela (01:09:40.123)
Mm
Marty (01:10:03.37)
Their mission and vision wasn't overly appealing to me, but the person who was there was incredible. And I wanted, I wanted that experience. wanted the experience of learning from them. And, no, just an interesting space to watch. And I, until, until we had gotten onto this podcast, I didn't think of like, how's AI going to impact this side of things? And so, no, it'll be a, interesting thing to watch regardless.
Angela (01:10:13.726)
Yep.
Marty (01:10:32.844)
For folks that are looking to get in touch and any anything you want to call out or shout out or to the folks that are still listening.
Angela (01:10:33.459)
Absolutely.
Charles Fortier (01:10:47.541)
Yeah, definitely. know, LeadHR .com is where people can find us online. We're super active also on LinkedIn. We have a corporate page on LinkedIn for LeadHR .com. Angela and I have also a personal account there where, you know, we share our thoughts around emotional intelligence, around leadership. So that's a super good place to see us.
We're doing a few HR shows in November also coming up. We're doing the HR Leader Summit. We're doing the I4PL conference also at the end of November. If you are there, come and see us. We're always super happy to meet new people and have a good chat. So come and see us. We're here. And we're at all your TTPG events also, Martin. All of them.
Marty (01:11:33.066)
Awesome.
Marty (01:11:37.118)
This is true.
Charles Fortier (01:11:40.501)
We try to participate as much as we can also on the Slack channel, like when people talk about leadership or if people want to reach out there, like we're active members and happy and proud to be there at the same time.
Marty (01:11:54.269)
Thank you. Thank you so much. Angela, any final thoughts?
Angela (01:11:58.385)
Yeah, I think until you can get to some practical application, emotional intelligence continues to be sort of like a very big catch all that people use the term. And I would say, know, to Charles's point about LinkedIn, if you either get online and you subscribe to our newsletter or you use LinkedIn to be able to see our content, what we want to make sure we do is give you like frameworks you could use.
tips you can try, questions you can use. So we wanna be able to give you as much value as we can so that you can think about emotional intelligence in a more grounded way and a more applicable way to your style. So if that's something that you're interested in, that I would suggest you go there because you get some real applicable models, frameworks and content that you can actually apply like right away.
Marty (01:12:53.792)
Amazing. No, thank you. Thank you, Angela. Thank you, Charles, for being on the podcast today.
Angela (01:12:53.971)
So, yeah.
Angela (01:12:59.574)
It was awesome, Martin, talking to you. Thank you.
Charles Fortier (01:13:00.705)
Thanks for having us.
Marty (01:13:03.126)
Thanks to the listeners and as they mentioned themselves, if you happened to listen to this podcast and you're not a member of the people, people group, check us out at the people, people group .com. I'll be sharing links to lead HR's website and to Angela and Charles's respective LinkedIn in the podcast notes. If you haven't checked it out already and you want to reach out to them, thanks again for listening. Here's hoping that all your candidates are awesome.
and all your emails be read thoroughly. I'm Martin Hawk. Take care.
Boop, we're done.
Angela (01:13:40.435)
Peace!