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The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is a transformative and supportive Podcast, dedicated to helping those who are, or have been, abused by narcissists to heal from the ravages of narcissistic abuse. Our show is a lifeline for those who are looking for next steps in their emotional and psychological healing, offering expert guidance and practical solutions for those who are in narcissistic relationships or are rebuilding their lives after narcissistic abuse. The hosts are Attorney Padideh Jafari and Jon McKenney who have helped hundreds of people in their narcissistic abuse recovery and know the journey personally in their own lives.
It's bad and I see it with my clients when they come in they're like I just can't leave.
Voiceover:Welcome to the narcissist abuse recovery channel with John McKenney and Padida Jafari.
Jon McKenney:Padidah it's good to see you.
Padideh Jafari:Hi John, how are you?
Jon McKenney:Very good. It's just not the same being together again like it was before. I so enjoyed being out there in LA with you, actually in San Diego and doing the recording. This is our first time recording again in a couple of weeks, and, it's good to catch up with you again.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. Nice to see you. How's everything in Atlanta?
Jon McKenney:Hot. It's been about a 100 degrees every day for the last, week and a half or two weeks. So, my car is baking, and if you go outside, it is sweltering. Mhmm.
Padideh Jafari:I don't like the sound of that.
Jon McKenney:No. It's it's a it's a far cry from LA. So where where the temperature is just always nice and moderate, and and you enjoy a really, really temperate weather out there. So it's, but it's good. And you know what?
Jon McKenney:I saw today, the new naked gun movie is coming out. So I am really excited about that, I gotta tell you.
Padideh Jafari:You and my husband, he's excited about that.
Jon McKenney:Oh, send him over. We'll go see it. I've I've actually got tickets for tonight, and it did really well on Rotten Tomatoes. It almost got a perfect score. So, and anything with Pamela Anderson, you know, it can't be bad.
Padideh Jafari:Agree. Agree. And I'm so happy she's, dating again. She's dating a Liam
Jon McKenney:Oh, is she?
Padideh Jafari:Yeah Liam Neeson who you know lost his wife on a ski accident and she was a famous actress as well and he said he would never get remarried and that that was the love of his life. And here he is like, you know, years later with Pamela Anderson. They they say that they're dating.
Jon McKenney:Now did you know that Liam Neeson is the star of the naked gun? So maybe they met on set.
Padideh Jafari:Correct. Yes. I believe that's the case. So
Jon McKenney:Well, we wish them well.
Padideh Jafari:Yes. So I have exciting news because I have my friend here in studio with me, Scott Silverman. Say hello.
Scott Silverman:Hello. I could do that.
Padideh Jafari:Yes. So let me tell you a little bit about Scott. He's a renowned crisis coach, family negotiator. He is he has won the CNN CNN Hero of the Week renowned recipient. I had never heard that.
Jon McKenney:Wow, no, didn't know that was an award. That's amazing. Yes. It sounds amazing.
Padideh Jafari:So he delivers insights for over forty years of working with individuals across all socioeconomic spectrums. And he has just written and published a book called, wait for the title, You're Not God. That Job is Taken.
Jon McKenney:I like that.
Padideh Jafari:That's such a great title. Right?
Jon McKenney:I know some people I can give that book to already.
Padideh Jafari:So we wanna welcome you to the studio, Scott. And this is a great honor to have you.
Scott Silverman:Thank you so much. Really great to be here.
Padideh Jafari:So today we're going to talk about, John, you want to tell us what we're going talk about today?
Jon McKenney:Trauma bonding.
Padideh Jafari:Yes. Trauma bonding and addiction, actually, is of Scott's specialties because he talks about addiction a lot. So what do you think about that title? Trauma bond and addiction.
Scott Silverman:Well, it can't get any more fun than that. I think they're they're interwoven. You know, we were just kind of looking at a a a updated definition of trauma bond, which kinda reminds me, you know, of the Stockholm syndrome where there is somebody somebody who's actually the term I like or prefer is holding someone hostage, and it's usually the victim, if you will, and domestic violence is a huge problem. And it's part of that stigma just like addiction. People don't talk about it, and it goes on a lot.
Scott Silverman:And it it's interesting. You know? I'm I'm in the Jewish faith, and we have a lot of it. We've had actually a lot of growth over the last twenty years with that going on. And because there's different sects of our our faith and different levels of commitment, and a lot of it's dictated by the man, if you will, in many cases.
Scott Silverman:And it's something that is treatable, but until it gets discovered, there's usually someone who's in harm's way for quite some time. And the addiction side of it is someone's generally mood mood altering, you know, and self medicating, to try to deal with it one way or another.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. Now, Scott, let let's go back to the origins of this. You talked about Stockholm syndrome a little bit. That that actually goes back to war and captivity, does it not?
Scott Silverman:Correct. But where the individual who is, you know, dealing with the victim, that victim falls in love or gets connected to the batterer, if you will, and they they believe that it's their job to do whatever needs to be done to console, confirm, or comply with that individual. That's why I I see the similarity with the, you know, the trauma bond.
Jon McKenney:Mhmm. And how does somebody how how does somebody find their way to trauma bond? I you know, that they they just get involved with a narcissist and it happens? It happened in all cases or most? Or talk talk to us a little bit about that.
Scott Silverman:I I think my my experience with, you know, dealing with families is it it's kinda the way you ask that quite. Then no one really travels down the road to, hey, honey. Let's go to trauma bond land. It it's just it's a it's a happenstance of what happens when when there's somebody who is, in many cases, a narcissist or suffers from a god complex and believes that their way is the only way and everyone in the family will do exactly what they say or there's gonna be a consequence. And that consequence, is is creating the trauma, and trauma untreated only gets amplified.
Scott Silverman:Yes. Trauma untreated only, you know, infects the entire family. I mean, one of the things that, you we work with veterans here a lot in San Diego at Confidential Recovery in our Veterans Navigation Center. And what we've learned about PTS, and the studies show that if somebody comes back from, you know, events with the, you know, military and their PTS goes untreated, it's like the flu, if you will. The rest of the family gets PTS.
Padideh Jafari:So
Scott Silverman:with untreated trauma, what happens is everyone can be impacted by it.
Jon McKenney:Interesting. Interesting. So so as you know, our audience is a group of people primarily who who are interested in narcissism, not because they are them, because the hit narcissists wouldn't wouldn't spend the time on a a podcast like ours, but, because people think they're victims of narcissistic abuse. What what are some of the key signs, you know, that that we can talk about here today that would help somebody know if they're in, in in trauma bond or not? I know I I I think in my own relationship and I I was married to a covert narcissist for twenty seven years Or like I tell people when they ask, how long were you married?
Jon McKenney:About ninety years. It felt like that at least.
Padideh Jafari:I
Jon McKenney:was in a position where I felt like I was so emotionally connected and and met with a therapist who's like, why are you why are you doing this? And it was very hard to kinda get away from that emotional connection. Is that that kinda what it is, or what are some of the what are some of the signs of this?
Scott Silverman:Well, it's I think it's very similar when you when you speak of it that way, and you mentioned covert, you know, and it probably in some ways might have been overt as well. The, addiction in a family, you know, it's fifteen percent of our population suffers in some form of addiction, untreated addiction, and the balance of the people around them, because it's a family disease, also suffer Yes. From the consequences of that addiction. And when you think about the person who's got the problem in in the addiction field, if you will, fifteen percent suffer from addiction, but eight people are impacted negatively by that person who has the addiction. So you think about that.
Scott Silverman:That's eighty five percent plus of our country right now that are being impacted by it. So when you factor in the trauma piece and and a lot of what you know, trauma, in my opinion, be and I'm not a clinician or a doctor, but my experience is it's it's kind of like if you have an illness and it goes untreated, it gets worse because it doesn't start as trauma. Mhmm. You know? Like but it builds, and then trauma on top of trauma untreated creates all kinds of underlying issues.
Scott Silverman:And most people who don't process it are gonna either implode or explode. And, unfortunately, it's gotta be treated just like when people say, well, gee, I, you know, I do interventions. And they say, can you come get my son and just take him somewhere? You know? And try please don't bring him back.
Scott Silverman:We'll pay you. I said, no. No. That's not how it works. And, you know, in families, it's it's kept very secret.
Scott Silverman:You know? It is a stigma. It's not something soccer moms talk about. It's it's not something, you know, it it that goes on when people meet, you know, at pickleball and go, yeah. I'm living with an abusive significant other, and I don't know what to do with them.
Scott Silverman:They don't say that out loud because then it looks like they're vulnerable, they're weak, and then they're also sitting in an abusive relationship. And so it's really hard to talk about.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah, I mean I can tell you that in my marriage, my past marriage, that's exactly what it was. I mean I was a divorce attorney being abused by a malignant narcissist and I couldn't tell anyone. Part of it because I was trying to protect his image And the other part of it was, okay, fine, you go and tell someone. Now there's repercussions to that and they're gonna tell you to leave the person. And I knew that sort of in the back of my mind and I wasn't ready.
Padideh Jafari:And so it took seven years. So to your point it's like addiction, like families and we've had addiction in our families so I can also speak to that. You put your head in the sand and you just think the person's gonna get better but the more you do that the worse the person gets. And so it's not until you establish healthy boundaries and say no I'm not going to be manipulated by the addict anymore that they sort of will hit rock bottom, right? Because once you close the door to them that's when they'll realize, oh my gosh.
Padideh Jafari:I'm alone in this. Is that is that true?
Scott Silverman:I I think it's a common outcome, you know, when you're the victim, if you will, or the recipient of the abuse, you know, because it's really hard to tell somebody, you you know, you know, you're abusing me. You just you don't have that because it builds over time, and they chip away at it. And it's not really a conscious effort. It's more of a subconscious behavior where they will grow on it. And if they've got a substance abuse issue, it gets amplified.
Scott Silverman:So it isn't just, you know, I don't like you or you're not doing things I want you to do or you don't like me. It just builds over time, and there's outside influences. And we've seen with with COVID, we've seen things amplified like we I've never seen anything like this before. There's a level of inability to process feelings now that we've never seen before. Just be and and there's no studies around it because we never had that kind of experience.
Scott Silverman:There's a younger generation coming up now, you you young people, where, you know, kids were at home with COVID, and they spent so much time on the Internet, and they weren't having that social interaction with others. And, you know, parents were frustrated because they weren't at school. Relationships got strained because of what was going on with the economy, loss of jobs, all the all the trauma around that event. And there's no studies yet, and and we're gonna know in probably about, well, it's five to eight years when studies start getting done because we're seeing this, you know, issue going on with some of the catastrophic events that people are doing when they're acting out. I mean, look at that current shooter in in in in New York.
Scott Silverman:You know? That that just it's insane. You know? When I was growing up, we'd take a bag of dog poop and put lighter fluid on it and ring the doorbell, you know, and and people come out Right.
Padideh Jafari:I remember the you know, I just wanted to take a moment here to say that Scott said that I was a younger generation for all those listening because that is not the case, Scott. I am I am much older than I look, but I just wanted to take that moment to
Scott Silverman:say that. To be honest, I'm not I'm not gaslining you. I'm just fabricating the truth my own comfortable way.
Padideh Jafari:Okay. That sounds good. That's hilarious.
Scott Silverman:So but I think it comes back to the stigma. You know, we don't the fact that we're talking about this today, think about it. How I I I don't do that very often. You know? And I I have a podcast that we talk about these kind of things all the time because we can.
Scott Silverman:We don't have any limitations to it, we think it's important, and we bring people in who've had different experiences. You know? But I was just thinking about, you know, this topic today, and there was this couple I was working with a couple years ago. He was a lawyer, and she was a doctor. And he wanted me to fix her, So and he and he was about to turn her into the AMA, which was pretty bold.
Scott Silverman:Wow. And he was threatening her with that. So she was actually a victim, if you will, of his abuse, and she because her ego she was the doctor, and she had a major drinking problem. And he says, what should I do? And I said, well, let me talk with her.
Scott Silverman:And, you know, most doctors in in this I think she was just finishing her residency, was working eighteen hours a day. Wow. And when we spoke, she said, you know, I I only drink when I drive home. And I said, I'm sorry. What?
Scott Silverman:I only drink, you know, in the in the in the car, so I'm by myself. I said, but you're in the car at a freeway. And I you know, but she said that's the only time I drink. I said, okay. So, you know, I I I tried to get a three way conversation, but neither one of them wanted to to have that conversation together because they didn't want their dirty laundry to be exposed to a third party, although each one of them was telling me about it.
Padideh Jafari:Yes.
Scott Silverman:So, you know, I tried to do an intervention with him because in many ways, they were they were forcing each other. They were amplifying each other's behavior. They were both gaslighting each other. It was a very it's duality of domestic violence from both of them at each other be because of the narcissism.
Padideh Jafari:Yes.
Scott Silverman:And neither one of them took responsibility for their own behavior, and each one of them blamed the other for what was going on. So, you know, those are the kind of things that one day just explodes, you know, or or somebody gets up and leaves because they can't take it anymore. But in many cases, they're pointing the finger at somebody else. And that's part of that denial.
Jon McKenney:Do you think most people have any clue that they're they're trauma bonded when they're in a situation like that?
Scott Silverman:I don't think so, and I think that's what trauma means with bonding. I mean, you're you're if you're if you've gotten to the point where you're bonded, it's kinda like, you know, plastic getting too hot and sticking together. You're just you know, you can't separate from it, so you're both kind of on that, you know, vortex of pain.
Padideh Jafari:I can tell you that with my situation, it felt like he was my drug dealer. Even when we separated, it was so difficult, Scott. Like, I had to move and everybody knows my story that's, you know, been a a follower of ours. I had to move to New York. I literally had to
Scott Silverman:Full geographic.
Padideh Jafari:Yes, physically moved for, I lived there actually thirteen years I was bi coastal but for two years he didn't even know where I had gone because I had to get away from him because there was that trauma bond. Was like you know and once, I didn't know the word for it obviously but now I do and it's bad and I see it with my clients when they come in they're like I just can't leave, I can't leave. And I'm like well let's go through the scenarios and I walk through them with them and then I always recommend a psychotherapist because I can't do that emotional side of it for them. But it's really bad. I mean it's really devastating.
Scott Silverman:And when they're on fire it's hard to have a conversation with somebody. You know when they're just dancing around on fire. You know it's interesting when you describe that. Used to have an MFT, marriage family therapist, on our on our team, and I used to share about how when I ran the nonprofit, you know, we're a family business. And he says, you know what?
Scott Silverman:We're really not because you're technically the father. You're You the dad. And when you describe what he was doing, it's almost like when your dad says something or your mom says something, it's law. You just follow it. When we get into those because it's the person theoretically who you wedded because of strong feelings and a connection.
Scott Silverman:So there's that special part that you you wanna give them every benefit of the doubt. You wanna give them as much time as possible. You wanna make every excuse in the book that you can. And part of that pushing away but pulling back is is the bond. And the trauma is the behavior that you're receiving, and you're not processing it because you really don't believe it's happening.
Scott Silverman:And when you tell others, the first thing they say is, Why don't you get out of there? Or, You're breaking it up. Or, You're too sensitive. Or, That can't be true. Because if it was, why would you stay there?
Padideh Jafari:Correct. 100%. So they're gaslighting you without even knowing that they're gaslighting you. And so that becomes another trauma on top of the trauma.
Scott Silverman:The victim in many cases is gaslighting themselves.
Padideh Jafari:Correct.
Scott Silverman:There you know you were saying I can deal with this. I'm a mature person. I chose this person. We chose each other. We can get past this.
Scott Silverman:The problem is if there's an illness or there's a behavior or there's a twist in the brain or they have untreated trauma. And you know, it's interesting. Most cases of untreated trauma go back to most people's childhood.
Padideh Jafari:Correct.
Scott Silverman:And it happens at a young age, and it never gets treated over time. And what happens is it becomes like this cancer that, you know, like the integrator of the brain, everything goes through that. So when it hits you, it's a 100 times worse than it would be normally because it's already amplified inside your body, mind, and soul. Those aren't necessarily the therapeutic terms, but I think they're easier for people to understand because it's like, know, when people call me and say, well, how do I well, you don't go on YouTube. Someone's got a mental health issue.
Scott Silverman:It's too opaque. You go see a specialist. And when people families tell me we're we're gonna love we're gonna love them, but you're you're loving them to death and and you and you become a victim as well.
Jon McKenney:You know, I mean, that's the interesting thing. You know? Stockholm syndrome is is somebody who's trauma bonded perhaps to a captor, but but when you're trauma bonded perhaps to a spouse or to a parent, love muddies the water, trying to figure out or distinguish between genuine love for somebody, and I'm not gonna give up on them, and marital commitments, and all of that versus, okay, I'm being abused for somebody, which particularly for for men, and I'm I'm work primarily with men, is a a tough admission anyways, even to oneself. And then to acknowledge the the trauma bond and to to sift through that versus genuine feelings of love for somebody is a difficult process at best.
Scott Silverman:Oh, and, well, with men, it's even worse because between the ego and the self pride and, you know, the you're in charge and you're supposed to be responsible and, you know, you're you're the provider and, you know, you're supposed to look good and be hip slick and cool all the time. It's it's even tougher. And that's part of the denial part of it. You know? I think it just compounds the problem.
Scott Silverman:And, you know, when you think about trauma, it's it's something that we talk a lot about. And and the way I've, you know, understood, you know, like EMDR, which is one of the techniques to deal with trauma, is trauma gets stuck in this, you know, little box in your brain, and you need techniques to open that box and take that stuff out. It won't work. You can't organically wish it away or will it away. And you can only meditate to a certain point.
Scott Silverman:It's going to take therapeutic support, maybe working with different groups and other individuals, like minded individuals who have suffered from it, and accepting the fact that, you know, it's not your fault.
Padideh Jafari:Right.
Scott Silverman:It's not your fault when you're the victim. And people when they're victims they think that there must be something I'm not doing right.
Padideh Jafari:Right. Well the guilt is really strong too right because you're detaching from the person who has been your supplier for so many years and so there's a lot of guilt there. We talk about that in one of our episodes that I had two years worth of guilt. I felt like, oh my gosh, I've left this person. Is it my fault?
Padideh Jafari:Could I have done things differently? And only the empath really does that, right? The narcissist doesn't do that because they've already moved on to the next relationship and so it was very difficult. And process of healing for me, took, so I was married for, I was with him for seven years and it took exactly double the time. So it took fourteen years.
Padideh Jafari:And I would say that I still get triggered sometimes. And I have a wonderful husband now that knows when I get triggered and I'll say that's kind of triggering and so he knows where that comes from. And so mine was a lot of sexual abuse as well with him and so it's exactly right. I couldn't do it by myself. I needed to go to therapy, I worked out, I was very always at the gym doing a lot of meditation, I was close to my family at the time and then also working out was very important in my life.
Scott Silverman:And it's punitive for you to have to go through all of that when in theory, not theory, in fact, you were the victim.
Padideh Jafari:Correct.
Scott Silverman:And but if you don't if you didn't do that, you know, how do we you know, how do you know how things might have ended up if you didn't work on yourself? And and and it takes what it takes, you know, like that saying, it takes what it takes. But for so many people, they don't. They don't, you know, they don't have the inner strength. They don't have other family members they can rely on, and they get stuck.
Scott Silverman:And there's nothing they can do because they're too afraid to leave, meaning the alternative they feel would be worse than what they've got there going on. And the narcissist doesn't even the it's narcissist blames everybody else.
Padideh Jafari:Correct.
Scott Silverman:You know? If you if you were this or you were that or you do this or cook dinner half an hour early or, you know, wash my car or, you know, take the clothes out or do or, you know, take the cat out, whatever, and they blame everybody else. It's never their fault. They never take responsibility for anything until they're usually handcuffed, you know, and behind bars or on a on a gurney at the emergency department because of something happened because of their behavior.
Jon McKenney:And, you know, it for me, it was always kinda like a moth to a flame, somebody who's trauma bonded once to you you feel like you're kinda electrically connected to somebody like that. I can remember when I finally got to the place, my therapist had said, look. You really kinda need to emotionally disconnect. It did feel like withdrawal. Your whole world is kind of upended and where your natural learned tendency is to go go right back to that person, even though you know it's going to be an abusive relationship.
Jon McKenney:Your heart wants to go do it anyway. So it really can be difficult. Not to mention, I would guess that if you don't do your homework on trauma bond and why you're trauma bonded and what it is and how it impacts your life. Ultimately, you can find another flame, and that flame may be very similar. I think this is really part of the the healing process is discovering what trauma bond has been for you and what kind of person you're trauma bonded to so that ultimately you don't put yourself in the same kind of situation again, which is essentially moving from one drug of choice to another.
Scott Silverman:You know? And when I hear you I thought I heard you say, correct me if I'm wrong, twenty nine years. Is that is that what it was in relationship?
Jon McKenney:Oh, you you added to, but that's fine. It felt like more.
Scott Silverman:Yeah. I think you said felt like ninety
Jon McKenney:or something. It was it's twenty seven.
Scott Silverman:So so when someone says to you you need to emotionally detach, what does that even mean? I mean and if you've never done it, you know, if you've never done it before, you know, how do you if you don't have the tools or a road map or GPS or footprints in the sand, you don't have a mechanism to do that. That's when people say, oh, you know, you you know, you need to you need to leave that person. Well, you don't know how. I mean, I I see it all the time in working with people in early recovery when someone says, you need to find a higher power.
Scott Silverman:Well, wait. If there was a god in my life, why am I here? Why has my entire family left me? Why did I lose my home? Why did I file bankruptcy?
Scott Silverman:Why is my business gone? Why am I, you know, dealing with a felony on parole right now?
Jon McKenney:Well Right.
Scott Silverman:It and that's part of the the untreated traumas. They wanna blame somebody else, and most people blame their parents. And when when and when your parents are gone and you keep blaming your parents, to me, it's like a it's a it's a comfortable explanation so you can keep the dysfunction going, and intervening on that takes a lot. Because it's really you know, I'm working with a family now. It's just it's incredible.
Scott Silverman:Separated mom, dad, child in their thirties. Everyone's pointing the finger at everybody, and and, you know, it's it's uncomfortable. And and it's interesting because I'm getting emotionally kinda connected with them because of of my empathy. But, you know, I've gotta get my boundaries going because it's important. And I just they're nice people, and they have great story.
Scott Silverman:And, you know, they're they're not from here, so they have a nice accent. They're easy to listen to until they start fighting. So it's amazing. And I do this all the time, but it it's it's shocking sometimes how people it reminds me of the flood in Texas where people just get sucked up in this river, and they don't have a choice. You know?
Scott Silverman:Right. You talk about a bond because a bond takes time where something like that happens in an instant, and all of a sudden, you're out of control. And no one has tools for things like that. You can't you can prepare and practice, but when you're in that stuff, it's it could be horrible.
Jon McKenney:You know, it's interesting. You you you kinda describe two different two different means of discard almost with a narcissist. You have the flood, which is instantaneous, and some people who are trauma bonded, are subject to the flood that just comes in quickly, where they're discarded, and they've got this bond to this person. I know I was I was talking to somebody just a couple of weeks ago in a coaching setting who had been gone from his narcissist for, I think, a year and a half or two years. And she discarded him.
Jon McKenney:And in an instant, his life is upended, and he's left with this bond to her and trying to figure out, even to the point of tears years later, how to go manage life without her when he genuinely loved her, even in another relationship with somebody else and still having problems with this. And and trying to work through this bond to somebody who's discarded him versus somebody who perhaps is in a relationship with a covert narcissist like I was, where she ain't leaving because she wants to protect her image above all else. So the abuse continues, and the gift keeps on giving day after day after day. And the narcissist victim has to somehow find the courage to go walk away from all of this when everything inside them, because of the trauma bond, is saying, stay, stay, stay. It'll get better.
Jon McKenney:It'll get better. It'll get better. There's a happily ever after when there's really not.
Scott Silverman:When the and when the narcissist what I've seen from the other side of that, when the narcissist loses its their their audience, you know, they're they just grow up like a little baby and cry. Meaning, it's almost like, you know, kryptonite with Superman. So, you know and when you can help empower someone to move away from that, the narcissist will generally chase for long periods of time. They won't give up because that was kind of how they got their, you know
Padideh Jafari:Their supply. Their supply. Supply. Yep. And that's what my therapist told me too.
Padideh Jafari:He said, because when my therapist said, you have to leave, you have to go somewhere and we made a plan for where I was going to go. That's exactly what happened. And I said, well, what if I don't open the door because I was living it with my mom. I had gone back and lived with my mom and he's like, don't you understand, don't you know this already, he's gonna come knock on your mom's door because he has no shame and that's exactly what he did. So when I moved to New York City he would come and knock on my mom's door and say where is she and my mom's like older lady you know and she's like I don't even know.
Padideh Jafari:I don't know where my daughter is and she had to lie to him because he wanted to track me down because I was his supply.
Scott Silverman:You were his oxygen. Correct. You're how he is how he breathed. Without you he couldn't be what he was.
Padideh Jafari:Correct. And it was interesting because he was already in another relationship but of course that didn't matter right. So that's why for two years I cut everything and I didn't speak to him. And then it was after I was sort of healed and understood what it was. I didn't know it was narcissism by the way.
Padideh Jafari:Right. I just thought okay he's toxic. We used to say that word a lot, he's toxic. Then he found out because I had to fit you know, finish the divorce and everything. And he was like, oh, that's where you escaped to.
Padideh Jafari:And I was like, yes, that's exactly where I escaped to. I escaped from you. And I was able to say that. Yep. But
Jon McKenney:And and he still chases you.
Padideh Jafari:Oh, yeah. He's still he's still Scott doesn't know that. He still DMs me. So, yeah, I mean, it it's it's difficult. So when my clients come in and they say, you know, I wanna do a consultation with you but I'm not ready to pull the the plug.
Padideh Jafari:I totally empathize with them, I understand why. And I'm like look we can do as many consultations as you want until you're ready to finally leave the situation because you have to escape, you can't really do it sort of voluntarily. And then they'll come back like months later and they'll say, Okay, now I'm ready. Because now they've built up the courage. I send them to therapy.
Padideh Jafari:Obviously I think that's important. And so when they're ready that's when we pull the plug.
Scott Silverman:Well, it's difficult to, you know, pull people, even push people. And I'm you know, the longer I've been doing this and working with others and I just I've just I got called in to work with this group out of well, I won't tell you what state, but they asked me to speak with them. And they're all retired and very comfortable, and they they they're they wanna do something.
Jon McKenney:Like Florida.
Scott Silverman:Well, Arizona. It's kinda similar. No humidity or big bugs. But and I and I I decided I I went to my higher power, I said, give me the strength to to to not take a position with this group. And my position was, well, if you don't want to, that's okay.
Scott Silverman:And I thought I've completely failed the the group that wanted me to help them. And then two days later, I got this email thanking me, and they want me to come back in August, and they're gonna bring a group four times the size. And they loved my okay philosophy. It's okay. Meaning, if you don't want my my attitude when the event interventions is if things are going okay, don't change anything.
Scott Silverman:And that makes people think. Because if someone's gotten to me, it's not because, you know, they're
Padideh Jafari:not okay.
Scott Silverman:It's not it's not like their grilled cheese sandwich was burned in the pan. I mean, when if someone's talking to me, it's because, you know, and I I have people because when I do media, I give my phone number out all the time. (619) 993-2738. And I encourage people to call me. I love when my phone rings, and it's a stranger because for me, it's an opportunity to maybe not go to a funeral.
Scott Silverman:And that's how I like to think. I mean, and that may you know, some people say, well, that's a little sadistic. Well, it is what it is, and I love doing that. And I wanna drink from a fire hose because I don't wanna I don't wanna go to funerals anymore. And Amazing.
Scott Silverman:The the morbidity rate right now, you know, with the opioid crisis and with alcoholism and mental health issues and with suicides, we've never seen it this high as a country, and we're not talking about it. And I would be willing to bet well, I know for a fact in in eighty five percent of domestic violence issues, at least in our community, and I'm sure we're a sample, there's substance abuse involved significantly. And with all the illicit drugs out there today and with fentanyl and with the cartels working hard to keep America supplied, we have to get better, be better, and do better.
Jon McKenney:Absolutely. And not not to mention I mean, so many who are in narcissistic abuse that I've talked to who are victims of this stuff wind up finding themselves in addiction on the other end of it because they're trying to cope. So so addiction figures in on the far side of it too.
Scott Silverman:Compulsive, obsessive, addictive behavior is kind of a moniker of a narcissist, in my opinion. I mean, it's part of that ability to do it. And narcissism can come from, you know, anywhere from sports, dancing, athletics, you know, chefs. It doesn't matter. Students, teachers.
Scott Silverman:You know, it doesn't there is no boundary around. There's no ZIP code for it. It's everywhere. And domestic violence has gotten a lot worse because, you know, who yells at you more than family? I mean, we we'll do stuff with family.
Scott Silverman:We won't do with a complete stranger because Totally. We know that they're what can they do? You know? Get mad and throw a glass of water on us? So I and I you know?
Scott Silverman:And, of course, I have a daughter who's in the field, so we talk a lot about, you know, abuse and how it goes on. And it's, you know, it's it's there are there's help and hope for it is what I wanna say. There are ways to get help and hope, and I hope people can you know, when they ask me, I said, well, you know, tell me more. You know?
Jon McKenney:So how so let's say that somebody is listening to our podcast today, and they've kind of just discovered recently what even narcissistic abuse is. And and we're talking about trauma bond, and they understand this connection. It's kinda like a moth to a flame drawing them back to something that's gonna kill them, or or hurt them significantly. What would you how what would you say to those people? How do they begin the process of recovery?
Scott Silverman:The simp the simple way is education, and then prevention. And in in order to get educated, you have to get knowledge. So a, you call me. B, can go online. It'd probably easier to go online because you're probably up at three in the morning worrying about, you know, what the kids are going through and Yeah.
Scott Silverman:How how you can be a better dad or a better mom or because the the part of a a domestic issue that goes on when you have children is they're witnessing it.
Padideh Jafari:Yes. A 100%.
Scott Silverman:And they will emulate that good, bad, or indifferent. So, you know, part of parenting, in my opinion, is to be a better role model or be a role model that, you know, is cognitive of having a good balance of happiness and joy and and and, you know, being a family that works hard. I mean, there's science around the fact that families who have dinner three times a week together and talk have a whole different outcome with their children. So, you know, to get the education, if you will, go online and just say trauma bond or I think I'm living or what's the definition of a narcissist? Keep it simple.
Scott Silverman:You know? And what is what is the definition of a victim? And start thinking about it. And before you start talking to people about what you've read, try to process in your in your head and maybe seek professional help to find out and sort out what it is that you're, you know, discovering in your current journey. So before you blurt out to, you know, your significant other, I've just read that you're a narcissist.
Padideh Jafari:Oh, yeah. Never say that.
Scott Silverman:You know, it's like just like telling a drunk a drunk, you know, you have a drinking problem. Well, how do you know that? Well, because you're throwing up on
Jon McKenney:your Loading a Like loading a bullet in the chamber of a gun for them that they're pointing at you. It's it it it's just more ammo for them to use against ultimately.
Scott Silverman:Literally called trigger words. You know? Don't Yeah. Don't give them the ammo because they'll they'll get better at what they do, which means you're gonna be subject to more pain and more trauma.
Jon McKenney:100%. 100%.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. That's yeah. Definitely don't. And we don't say that in court either. I'm sure your daughter would testify to that.
Padideh Jafari:Like we never say the word narcissist and a lot of times our client will say can't we just tell the judge he or she's a narcissist and I'm like absolutely not. But what we do is we because
Scott Silverman:the judge could be.
Padideh Jafari:Correct, the judge could be, the attorney could be, right? I mean there's so many things. So what we do is we say keep a journal so we know and go back as far as you can. I'd say timeline sometimes because with my male clients they're like what's a journal? I say do a timeline and and give me examples and we can tell the judge these examples of the what the person did that were narcissistic without using those words.
Scott Silverman:Yeah. Did did you say the males say what's a journal? Is that what you said?
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. They don't like journaling as much. I find that some of my clients, they don't like journaling. They're like, I don't really wanna write down my thoughts. I'm like, okay, that's okay.
Padideh Jafari:So just do a timeline so that I can see it. And then sometimes I'll look at their timeline and I'll say, okay. You need to be a little bit more detailed here. Tell me what that so, yeah, they don't I don't know.
Scott Silverman:Is that a is that a gender deficiency, you think?
Padideh Jafari:I mean, I know John journals. But
Jon McKenney:For decades.
Padideh Jafari:I've I've told I've asked my husband to journal, and he won't do it. But he'll write down things in his, like, notes, but he doesn't consider that journaling.
Scott Silverman:Well, you like journaling, I'll tell you a secret. A lot people don't know. You know, each one of us has an inner child. I don't know if you believe that or not, but I you know?
Jon McKenney:I do. I have a
Scott Silverman:little I have a little Scotty. And and when I was going through my training with that, they said you have to go out and you have to find a stuffed animal that represents your inner child. Well, coincidentally, mine is Woody Woodpecker. Go figure. But what's interesting is if you write with your opposite dominant hand, that's your inner child.
Jon McKenney:Interesting.
Scott Silverman:Wow. Give that a try. You know, even though you may not do it well, just go, hey, little Scotty. How are you today? And watch how your heart melts.
Scott Silverman:This is my experience. And what starts to come from that. So if you like journaling, this will take you to another level that just will make you smile.
Padideh Jafari:Wow. We gotta do that, John.
Scott Silverman:Not to not together. Separately first, compare notes, and then you can do it as a group.
Padideh Jafari:Okay. Sounds good.
Jon McKenney:Well Yeah. I mean, that was a it was a fantastic process for me. I've I always found that just the the act of coming up with the words to write on the page helps you sift your thought your thoughts and emotions very naturally in a way that nothing else does. And and and as you do that, insight comes to you from, you know, what, as you call our higher power, we call God here, but it, you know, it it comes to you and it really does help. And the other thing for journaling for me, for those of you who are are going through narcissistic abuse, if somebody's gaslighting you and you're recording exactly and quickly afterwards, you're recording exactly what they say when they come back to you and say, I didn't say that.
Jon McKenney:I said this. I didn't say that. I said this. You can go back to your journal and refer to exactly what they said, and it'll keep you sane throughout that process too. So it's a it's a fantastic recovery tool, I think.
Scott Silverman:Yeah. I'm I know we're running short of time. I wanna give you one more nugget. That Please do. It's a tool that I've used for forty years, and it's called a godbox.
Scott Silverman:And I have the old shoebox. And what I do with that is I take my notes, meditation, complaints. You know? I I got a special because I was starting to whine a lot about my wife because sometimes when she's in the room breathing, I get a little irritated. So but that's my problem.
Scott Silverman:So I got a little tiny post it note for her that I got eight and a half by eleven for me. So I write in there, and then I fold it up, and I put it in my godbox. And what happens is it it empowers me to not be burdened with whatever that is at that moment. And I give a
Jon McKenney:great idea.
Scott Silverman:Put it in a little you can call it whatever you want. You know, you can call it a tray or drawer. I call it a godbox because I get when I give something to god, if you will, or my higher power, I have both because I am duly diagnosed. So I want one for each. Yes.
Scott Silverman:But I put it there, and it helps me. It lightens my load. I can I can without having to see a therapist or call a, you know, hotline or, you know, a crisis line, I feel better because I feel lighter? And it's an easy tool to give anybody. It doesn't cost any money, and you make up your own.
Scott Silverman:You know, I've seen people, they send me pictures. They've, you know, they spent a hundred hours decorating it, airbrushing it, and putting their kids' hair and this and the toenails, and it's oh my god. But you could do all that. And I've been doing it for I filled the mine up for after ten years, and I called my sponsor at the time. So what I goes, let's go down to the bay, and we'll find a fire ring.
Scott Silverman:We're gonna burn it and give it to put it in the heavens. And then I started over So I love that.
Padideh Jafari:I love that too. I'm gonna go start that, and I'm gonna have one for my husband too. So, anyway, it was so nice to have you on to
Jon McKenney:today's Privilege.
Padideh Jafari:Scott. And so how can people find you? How can people get your book? I know John and I definitely wanna get your book as well.
Scott Silverman:Absolutely. Scott H. Silverman, just Google me or call me. 619993273. And you know people go, oh, I don't call me.
Scott Silverman:I absolutely dare you and challenge you and invite you. And no matter where you are in the world, you know, and if you're thinking, oh, I I don't know what I'd say. Well, just don't call and hang up. Call and just say, I I I heard you. I saw you, and I I have a question, and ask the question.
Scott Silverman:I mean, we're not gonna spend an hour and a half. I'm not flying out to your home, you know, unless you have a private plane and you wanna bring us together and we'll go see John. Well, we'll wait till, you know, we'll wait till it's a little cooler weather. You know, come out to San Diego. I mean, right right now, it's just beautiful here.
Padideh Jafari:He was just here. He was here two weeks ago because we had a podcast launch party, and he came to the studio, which was so nice to have him. But, you know, I just I really I really hope and pray that this episode was good for our listeners, I feel like, because I wish that I knew what Trauma Bond was Totally. You know, fifteen years ago. Yes.
Padideh Jafari:But thank you so much for being here.
Scott Silverman:My pleasure. It was an honor talking to both of you and I do hope that somebody gets the message.
Jon McKenney:Scott, it really has been an honor and pleasure. And honestly, in addition to being hilarious, you're deeply kind and, and to make yourself available to people like that is amazing. So thank you so much for being here. And, and we do look forward to another time with you. We hope you have a wonderful afternoon again.
Jon McKenney:Thank you, Scott. And we'll see you again soon.
Voiceover:Thank you for listening to the narcissist abuse recovery channel. Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. To hear other episodes or read the associated blogs, visit www.narcissistabuserecoverychannel.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram with the handle narc. Podcast. The guest views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are their own.
Voiceover:The information presented is for general informational purposes only and is not intended to be legal advice. The co hosts are not licensed therapists. Seek professional help as information is often state specific. The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is produced in studios in California and Georgia.