Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

It’s not often that you get to chat with a neuroscientist. Still less often to chat with a neuroscientist that is also a doctor. Still less often to chat with a neuroscientist that is a doctor and also autistic. And less often still to chat with a neuroscientist who is also a doctor and also autistic and also a horseman. Finally, it’s about a chance in a million, maybe more, to chat with a neuroscientist that is a doctor, is autistic, is a horseman and who is also a renowned horse trainer and published author on horse training and behaviour. 

Dr Stephen Peters is that man. His book, Evidence Based Horsemanship, is rapidly becoming something of a bible among those who would understand how their horse’s brain and their human brain could best come together in working harmony. 

Of course, for those of us in the Equine Assisted World, whether we are practitioners, clients, or simply curious onlookers – or whether we are the horses upon whom the entire process depends – knowledge of the brain is key. If we are dealing with a physical issue, we first have to reach the person’s brain before we can start that therapizing stuff. If we are working with neuro cognitive conditions, a basic working knowledge of the neuroscience of learning and cognition would seem essential – yet very few programs outside of Horse Boy Method offer this. 

If you are training and maintaining the therapy horse, understanding your own brain as well as, to some extent, that of your four-legged colleague would also seem to be an advantage. 

One day, the therapeutic approaches will hopefully begin to put neuroscience front and centre of their professional trainings. Axons, dendrites, myelination, BDNF and other neurotrophins, cerebral spinal fluid, the amygdala, cortisol, oxytocin and serotonin, the dance between the re frontal cortex and the rough emotional seas of the limbic system: it’s a lot to navigate. So sit back, grab a pen, paper and beverage, and let Dr Stephen initiate you into the mysteries of that organ you work with every day; the noggin.

Links and books mentioned:
Evidence base horsemanship Martin Black and Dr. Steve Peters 
Courses with Dr. Steven Peters & Sarah Schlote course https://equuscience.com/

Contact Dr. Stephen

Find our other shows and programs:

What is Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson?

Here on Equine Assisted World. We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, established in the equine assisted field. This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have that these lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.

Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.

 You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com.

Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

Here on Equine Assisted World.

We look at the cutting edge and the best
practices currently being developed and,

established in the equine assisted field.

This can be psychological, this
can be neuropsych, this can be

physical, this can be all of the
conditions that human beings have.

These lovely equines, these beautiful
horses that we work with, help us with.

Thank you for being part of the adventure
and we hope you enjoy today's show

Welcome back to equine assisted world
where we talk to people at the cutting

edge of this Can't really even call it
an industry this Practice the service

this way of looking at the world of
how horses interact with humans And

make them feel better basically We look
at it from the horse angle, we look

at it from the human angle, we look
at it from the body angle, we look at

it from the nervous system angle, and
we look at it from the brain angle.

And for those of you who know, a
little bit about the approach, with

our own methods, , horseboy method,
movement method, and so on, , you'll

No, it's very, , neuroscience based.

It's very brain based, but
we're not neuroscientists.

We just stumbled into something
that, we had explained to us why

it was working by neuroscientists.

It's relatively rare that we get an actual
neuroscientist, , here, , in front of us.

they tend to sit in, special
neuroscientist kennels in universities

and you don't really get access to them.

You have to go through.

all sorts of, wire and, , locked
gates and things like that.

But we managed to break one out
of, of the, , Of the ivory tower

and bring it to you guys to listen.

So we're very, very lucky.

We've got Dr.

Steven Peters here, who's a unique
individual in many, many ways, because

not only, , is he a brain scientist and a
doctor, , and, but he also is, has autism.

, and he's also a very
accomplished horseman.

And has been working in the
field of equine assisted stuff in

general, as well as horsemanship
in general for many, many years.

And so he's in a unique position to
really, , enlighten us on a lot of

things that a lot of us wonder about.

Because let's face it, when you're
working with a human or whether

you're working with a horse.

If you're working with any sentient being,
pretty much, you're working with the

brain, that's what you're working with.

You might want your horse
to do a half pass, but first

you've got to access the brain.

You might want, , this, A client
or service user that you're working

with to, do to participate in
a, in a, in an activity that is

going to have a beneficial effect.

Well, that's only going to happen
if you can reach the brain.

Yet the brain is the thing that we are
taught the least about, in most of our,

training, whether we are teachers, whether
we're therapists, whether we're, even,

you know, people in the medical field,
they don't get an awful lot of brain

science unless they go looking for it.

So we went looking for it.

And here we have Dr.

Steven Peter.

So Dr.

Peter, Dr.

Steve, thanks so much for coming on.

Who are you?

Tell us who you are.

Dr. Steven Peters: Well, Rupert,
I'm glad to be a part of your.

Your program here.

I am a neuroscientist, and I'm
glad you brought that whole idea

up about neuroscientists coming
out of the, their ivory tower.

In fact, that sort of drove
me in my, in my horse work.

I was a human neuroscientist and I
assessed brain functioning and ran memory

clinics and, in a clinic for brain
health, big hospital based clinics.

But I always had horses.

And so I always looked at them from
that neurological vantage point.

You know, every mammal has a,
a nervous system and that's

what we communicate with.

I guess a big frustration.

was talking to people in the horse
world who assumed that horses

perceive the world as we do.

And if you just stop for a second and
think, You know, the, the shape of

their pupil, the sounds that they bring
in, the mechanoreceptors in their skin,

they can't perceive a world that we
perceive, but we use the human brain as

a, as a standard to compare the horse to.

So people would say crazy
things like that horses.


It knows better.

It's disrespectful.

You know, when a horse was simply
being a horse and the person lacked

the communication skills to connect
with the horse and understand

that language, with the horse.

So I I wanted to find somebody
who saw horses enough horses,

it would give me some good data.

You can't do anything in
science with small numbers.

So I'd look through the peer reviewed
literature and I'd see Maybe six

horses and they were all Pasafinos
and they were all in a stable

and they were all receiving the
same food, you know, grain, etc.

And, and you can't generalize from that
sample out into the world of, of horses,

but you'd see research that would, would
seem to indicate that that was the case.

So I got frustrated even with
the science side of things.

So Martin Black, for those who don't
know, is a fifth generation cowboy

and has spent his lifetime working
with horses, as has his family.

In fact, Martin's family has
supplied horses for almost every

war that the United States has
fought right up to World War Two.

So, Martin, when he was a teenager,
wanted to earn extra money.

So he developed a contract
colt starting business and

was starting 500 colts a year.

As a teenager.

So Martin has seen his empirical
data is what he's observed again and

again was invaluable huge numbers.

So he and I got together.

I provided the science I would
say things like do horses.

You ever see horses do
this in this situation?

And he said, yeah, it took me about
a thousand horses before I saw that.

How the hell do you know that?

I said, I only know that because
I understand how the brain works.

And so it was both of us putting the
puzzle pieces together, his empirical

data, my scientific data, and we wrote
a book, Evidence Based Horsemanship.

And then that sent me off.

I had no idea that this would catch on.

I, I was planning on, on a retirement
with my dogs and my horses and, , a quiet,

contemplative, artistic life, painting
and drawing and doing those things.

And that has not been the case.

you know, I've been asked, first off,
By scientific groups, but then the lay

public and I found that people want
to connect and understand their horses

and understand the reactions that they
get with their horses and understand

how it's two nervous systems coming
together, the human and the horse

that the interaction is so important.

So these programs follow steps ABC and
D are just so rigid and sometimes crazy.

You know, I'd ask people, why
does your horse do that well.

There are right brain
introverted Sagittarius.

I have all these charts and graphs
that I spent money for to show me this.

so for me, it just seems so far
out there and, and so confusing.

To the public and if it's confusing
to the public, whatever they present

is going to be confusing to the horse.

And, you know, I really felt the
horse was getting a disservice.

So I've sort of been on this mission of
providing information about the horse's

nervous system and What we do, we do
brain dissections and I show people all

the connections, with a horse, which
can be quite profound for somebody to

hold an organ that it controls, like,
like you said, Rupert, everything that

that horse perceives and does and learns,
you know, if it kicks it bucks, it

bolts, it grazes, has to be processed
through the brain and the nervous system.

So understanding what's under the hood.

It is a really a, key step in
understanding the horse as a,

as a whole in a different level,
a whole different level than

just making the horse do things.

Rupert Isaacson: Here's the question.

I want to ask you a bunch
of things from this.

But something that comes up, immediately
is, I think it is true to say that you

can generalize some aspects of horse
training, otherwise people would not ever

have been able to train horses, including
Martin Black, would not have been able to

start all these colts, nor his family,
you know, for the army, et cetera.

However, I think, yes, it's certainly
true that even if we get horses

to do things, we misunderstand.

their motives, their reactions,
their, it's hard for us to, to

judge their well being outside
of their physical well being.

the first question that arises is if it's
so flawed traditionally how we've been

approaching horses and horse training.

Just gonna play devil's
advocate for a moment.

Why is it so effective?

Because we've done, we've, we've
done amazing things with horses

over the centuries, without a doubt.

what's the what's the disconnect?

What's what's wrong?

Dr. Steven Peters: Let me ask you.

Do you really think we've
been that effective?

It's a good question.

Here would be my argument is that,
you know, horses are, are, you can

make them do things and you can turn
them into robotic animals actually,

and lose that, that connection.

So you don't have a communication.

For example, if you're starting
a colt, and, and this is what

Martin and I have come upon.

If you're starting a colt.

You can be really clear in your
communication if they're in the right

mental framework in order to understand
what you're asking, or you can force them

where they're sympathetically aroused.

to go through emotion.

but what you're leaving your horse with,
like a human to learn, we all need safety.

We have to feel safe.

We have to have a motivation to learn.

So we have to have a way
to tap into dopamine.

and we have to have attention.

Oftentimes when you're getting out of
after your horse or trying to discipline

them, you lose their attention.

They check out.

on you, or if you have their attention,
they're not feeling safe if you're

forcing them to do something.

So you end up with neuronal bits and
fragments that the horse has to try to

struggle to put together because they're
not in the right neurochemical state.

In other words, it's, it's a, it's
a noise to signal ratio problem.

If you've got lots of noise in
their nervous system, then they've

got a hunt for that signal.

And they may or may not find it.

And then you have, if you have to
punish them in order to make them

search even harder, yes, you can
make them learn to do something, but.

They may be just reacting out of fear
and that may be rote memorization that

they, they come to from constant drilling.

And if you looked at the brain that was
constantly drilled, you'd find these

rigid, rigid neuronal connections,
because brains are live wire, as

they're based on our experience.

After you and I have this talk, if we've
stimulated each other's brains, there

will be different connections in our
neural network, and we will actually

be different people than we were
tomorrow than we are today based on.

So in other words, if, if we can
find that optimum neurochemical mix

where the horse feels safe, where
the signal, no matter how subtle.

Is understood because we've reduced the
noise and the noise being excess pressure

and the horse can find where that pressure
is and have an internal locus of control.

They can find their way out the
other side so they're under pressure.

We take the pressure away, they
recognize that, and then they learn

that they can get there on their
own, that if feeling stressed.

they can find that safe zone, then
horses become like what Martin

calls special forces horses, those
horses can sort things out and and

have a brain full of dendrites.

You take the horse out of the arena.

Brain of horse.


Rupert Isaacson: Go ahead.

Brain full.

You said they have a brain special forces
horses with a brain full of dander rights.

Did you say den dendrites.


What are dendrites?

Tell us, tell us what dendrites are.


Dr. Steven Peters: are little branches
off of, axons that, that branch out.

They arbor out Arborization.

And so like tree can have many,
like a tree, many, many branches.

If we do rote memorization, rote
training, drilling, we have a

horse that's never left the arena.

You'll have a lot of dendrites.

Well, you won't have
many dendrites actually.

They'll be pruned back and you'll
have very rigid neuronal connections.

If you then take that horse out for a
trail ride, they may come completely

apart because they haven't built up
enough options and but a horse that's

been allowed to explore a horse
that's been understood and feel safe.

You know, it takes very, it takes a lot
to get those horses feeling threatened,

because they can find a way out.

They can resort to other behaviors.

And those horses get us out of trouble.


You know, sometimes when we're
too dumb to know we've got ourself

in trouble, the horse can do that
because it's got all these branches

in their, in their brain connections.

So I would argue with you that
have we really been effective?


Rupert Isaacson: it's, it's well,
in certain, in certain, well, you,

you're giving me it's interesting
pause for thought because I think in

some, in some areas, yes, we have.

And it's a question then of.

This thing about dendrites, for
example, that allows a layman like

me to identify why it might have
worked so well in this area or

this discipline or this environment
and not so well in this other one.

So I'm absolutely with you on this.

So, for example, I grew up
very much with fox hunting and

fox hunting in the UK, is.

You rely on your horse 100% because
the fences are can be ridiculously

big that it's not a competition.

They're not it's not nothing is prepared.

it goes on all day and you trust
your horse's judgment completely

to get you out of trouble.

You might end up.

Crossing the freeway and then
swimming a river and then da da da.

It's very like going to war on a
horse in, in, in, in a funny way.

And if the horse isn't into it and
doesn't dig it, there's, there's

just no way you're gonna get killed.

and but the, the way in which those
horses were produced by those old

school horsemen that I grew and women
that I grew up around was all about

helping the horse to find its way.

and there was, there, there
was very naturalistic.

aspect to it in that it
was all done socially.

You always did it with mental horses
as the horse was coming up until

the point that the horse sort of
graduated and became this meta horse.

And then later I trained with, a
lot with, bullfighting mounted

bullfighting, people down in
Portugal who, whether or not one

agrees that bullfighting is sort of a
completely by the, by the horsemanship.

I don't bullfight.

I'm just interested in the horsemanship.

The horsemanship is, is bananas
because the horse has to go in there

and make all the decisions, basically.

going like, yeah, absolutely.

Let's go.

and if there's a moment of, I
don't really think so, or, I'm

scared or, I just don't want to,
you're dead in two seconds because

that bull is very intelligent.

He knows how to get you up
against the boards and skewer you.

And I noticed with those horses that
they were joyful and humorous and

full of character and full of life,
even though they were effective, they

were non robotic dressage horses.

And then I took a lot of that training
over to what we do with horse boy,

bits of the Fox hunting training and
bits of that bullfighting training.

And what I noticed was that you,
you, your horse's brain seemed

to change in front of you.

They seem to go from, because we'd
often get donation horses, which had

come out of all sorts of backgrounds
who'd arrived going, what's going on.


they would become within some months
of this training where they're crossing

the center line of their body a lot.

But it's, it's also, a lot of
outdoor time, a lot of social time,

a lot of all these other things.

And you end up with these horses
that absolutely look after you

and show up as a professional.

this dendrite thing is very interesting
to me because is it, this is the

question now, is it that in certain
effective areas of horsemanship

where we, we as a culture have.

achieved great things with horses.

Is it because we've done it in
those environments where the horse's

brain can, develop in that way?


and is it not working in
those other environments?

Because we're blocking that
and getting in the way of that.

And is that something that
horsemen need to know?

Dr. Steven Peters: I believe
they do need to know that.

In fact, it's not the discipline per se.

And you're right, we have
been effective in many ways.

But look at the common threads there.

Those horses that you described had
to solve problems on their own, right?

So they were given an internal locus of
control versus being forced to do things.

They became problem solvers, which indeed
started, grew a whole forest of dendrites,

Rupert Isaacson: right?

Yeah, you can't force the bullring
and you can't force a horse

over a big blackthorn hedge.

It just, you just can't.

They're just not going to do it.



They didn't check

Dr. Steven Peters: out because they,
they had an internal sense of safety too.

So something happened in, in their
training that allowed them to, because

horses are constantly asking, am I safe?

Am I safe?

Am I safe?

If we can answer that question,
then, then we can draw off their

curiosity because you can't be
curious if you're being threatened.

So once they become curious
and can get that dopamine hit.

You know, then they seek it out.

They become super learners.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
that's exactly that.

That's what I found is that the
horses and it doesn't seem to matter

what background they come out of,
you know, we get horses that are all

messed up in all kinds of ways because
generally, you know, donation horses

are given to you for a reason, right?

And we find that with this approach.

Their personalities emerge and they become
these meta horses relatively quickly.

I'd say within about 18 months or so.

but dendrites, this is phenomenal.

This is very interesting.

So basically what you're.

For my little brain to understand this,
is it that I'm therefore, I'm perhaps

receiving a horse whose, dendrites have
been snipped and clipped and pruned, and

it's a bit like a forest of a plantation
of, planted conifers, and then those

trees are allowed to find their way within
the brain, and then suddenly you have an

ecosystem with all sorts of other little
species in there, and da da da, which is

now an actual forest and what it needed
was to be allowed to find its ecosystem.

I love this.

I love this analogy that you have
of You called it arborization.

Was that

Dr. Steven Peters: was it?


Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

So tree ization.

Arbor tree, right?


Dr. Steven Peters: an arbor,
like branching off because these

dendrites will branch off and
then rub against other branches.

So then now you have a neural
network that is really wide.

And this should be really empowering
to horse owners because You

actually are responsible for the
creation of dendrites or the pruning

back of dendrites of your horse.

So in the right environment, those old
dude ranch horses, they, they got mixed

messages, never felt safe, had no way
to escape external locus of control.

Their mouths pull down at the same time.

They're getting spurred.

They check out.

and they become robotic.

And if you were to take those brains
and look at them under a microscope,

you'd find just very sparse dendrites.

They don't know how to solve
a problem, you know, and, and

actually their nervous systems
have, for the most part, shut down.

If you take those horses and You can
reach a point where you're not going to

get that good a return, you get an older
horse that's constantly been traumatized,

you know, you, you're still helping them.

But, you know, if you can
set up an environment where

you answer those questions.

Yes, you're safe.

Yes, you can explore.

Yes, you can problem solve, set it up
for your horse to solve the problem.

You can cross the screen.

By allowing your horse to put its head
down so it has binocular vision, so

it splashes in the pond a little bit.

So that, it, it heads up to that
pond and then finally puts its feet

in and crosses and you can come
back and do it again and again.

Or you could take that horse, get
them to the edge of the stream.

When they balk, you spur them
and they jump across like a frog.

That's not a water crossing.

And you could say in both instances,
that's a water crossing, but I guarantee

you what happens in the horse's brain
is much different than the horse.

That's been allowed to solve that problem.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

So, you know, I think a lot of, a lot
of, you know, good horsemen, women have

known that yes, if you let's, let's,
let's take the, water crossing analogy

from, that yes, if you allow the horse
to do it in his time, if you perhaps

bring in a mentor horse, if you do all
the things that set the horse up for

success, partly because it's just safer
for you, and more efficient, and then

that horse goes into that trailer, goes,
Through that stream, does that new

behavior, let's say, and then finds it.

It's a what's I think that that we know
that there's a lot of, good horsemen and

women who would do that sort of thing.

Someone instinctively because of
their empathetic natures, but it's

very, very useful for them to know why
it works because this is always the

thing when when horseman is talking
to horseman or therapist to therapist.

And they want to say, well,
I'm, I'm advocating here for

a more empathetic approach.

And someone just says, Oh, you're
just a soft hearted hippie.

If you can say, well, actually,
no, I just spoke to Dr.

Steve and Dr.

Steve told me about this thing called
dendrites and not dandruff, but dendrites.

And, and, these dendrites, are
important because if, if the horse hasn't

got them or doesn't have enough of them,
they can't make the decisions that will

you out of trouble, let alone them.

And these dendrites.

have to arborize and come into contact
with other dendrites and rub against

each other and stimulate each other
and create a problem solving ecosystem.

But it comes down to that's something you
can explain to people and they can get.


Dr. Steven Peters: fascinating.

You're exactly right.

And that there are a number
of very fine horsemen.

I don't, didn't mean to just go
back and just denigrate things

that had happened in the past.

And that this is an enlightened.

You know, , because there, there
are wonderful horsemen and women

that understand the how they
understand how to get this to happen.

They just don't have the why.


And if they have the why, then
they can fine tune the how.



Rupert Isaacson: optimize it and replicate
it and show other people how to do it.


So what I want to do here is
I want to dial back a moment.

tell us.

what is the main difference?

What are the main differences between
the horse brain and the human brain?

And what are the key ones
that we need to know?

Those of us that are working with horses.


Dr. Steven Peters: do not have an
area of the brain and what we call

prefrontal cortex that, that allows
them to have abstract thought.

So as far as we know, they're
not planning out into the future.

There aren't horses that say, Wow,
I'm going to put aside this, this

flake of hay until Tuesday and come
back and eat it when I'm hungrier.


So they're not forming these
contingency plans that we know of.

but if they don't have abstract thought,
what gets us in trouble is we do.

So let me give you an example.

It's just rampant in the horse
world that people say that

horse needs to be respectful.

They're disrespectful.

Well, that's an abstract concept.

You know, the horse does not say, well,
I'm going to put one over on my owner

and then go back to the pasture and have
a big laugh with all the other horses

and what I've been able to all the
trouble I've been able to cause here.

What actually happens is the horse
is more a motor sensory creature.

And so if they're stepping into our
space, It's because we're doing something

to inadvertently allow them to do that.

or we've actually trained them to do
that without knowing it, but they're

just simply being a horse and basing
things on the signals that we're giving.

And the reason that I'm so, hung up
on this idea of respect and disrespect

is then it gives the human permission
to punish the horse and discipline the

horse where I don't really know that that
plays a big role in, in, In learning.

certainly that takes away
the safety, et cetera.

So I think in trying to understand
that the horse is a motor sensory

creature and stop putting using our
big frontal lobe to put all this

abstract thought in their mind.

It clouds, our, our thinking.

So the big difference
is that frontal lobe.

Otherwise, we're pretty similar.

We each have six cortical layers in
our, in our brains of cells, you know,

we have a, well, actually I take that
back in the horse brain, there's some,

in some areas they far exceed us.

You know, their cerebellum, the
structure that hangs to the back of the

brain, is responsible for fine motor
movement, timing, balance, sequencing.

You know, they have these huge
limbs, and you know, they're

in a trot, just in a diagonal.

If you understood what had to happen
in the brain for that to occur,

it is pretty fascinating stuff.

So, and there are olfactory bulbs for
smell, which is a primitive sense.

are enormous.

If you, if you dissect out the
brain, you'll find that they're

enormous and ours are like thin
little shoestrings in comparison.

So, there are so many differences
in the way they perceive the world.

but the main difference is that
we have more white matter and more

bulk in our frontal lobes that
allow us to think more abstractly.

Rupert Isaacson: Let me ask you a
question on this then because I think

anyone who lives with horses, you
know, there's a difference, I think,

between People who do horse horses
as a hobby or a sport and people

who really, really live with horses.

not everyone who really, really lives
with horses is nice to their horses,

but let's assume that many of them are.

I think that for, for a lot of us who live
with our horses, we do observe behaviors

though that look rather prefrontal cortex
like, for example, the sense of humor.

and you say the horse doesn't
plan to put one over on you.

except when he seems to and
seems to enjoy the process and

have a bit of a laugh about it.

And when he seems to do it, it
to his or her herd mates as well.

if humor, for example, is perspective
taking that in order to do something

because it's entertaining or funny,
requires one to sort of see the

situation from the outside, what, human
psychologists will call theory of mind.

I'm not going to anthropomorphize
that onto the horse, but nonetheless,

definitely humor definitely sometimes
now, Oh, I can, I can, I can

mess with you a little bit here.

And I have a, I have, for example, a carte
blanche with my horses about messing with

me because, my horses have to be so good.

When I'm working with the clients
that I have, like they've got to

be so good that I give them what
I, a lot of what I call crazy time.

where they can just go really nuts on sort
of playgrounds that I build for them where

they go running around socially together.

Also, they can mess with
me when I'm riding them.

I have a sort of amnesty thing on
them, which is if you want to kind

of run away with me a little bit,
if you want to kind of throw a buck,

if you want to express yourself in
a way that is humorous, have at it.


I ask you to be so good
so much of the time.


This is your time.

It's totally fair enough.

They are my anthropomorphizing that
they are Exercising a sense of humor

with me and with each other or are
they actually and if they are If

that's not coming from the prefrontal
cortex, where's it coming from?

Dr. Steven Peters: This is the fantastic
million dollar question, Rupert.

Because I've dissected out so many horse
brains, and I'm amazed at the number

of convolutions and the folded gyri and
sulci, which means if you ironed out

that brain, it would have a huge mass.


What we've done with all animals,
we treat them as lower mammals.


Because we, we, we use the standard
of human intelligence, and we come up

with human tasks to measure them by.

Whereas they're, they're
fantastic creatures as horses

that we underappreciate.

So as an evidence based person in
my response, what I say is, well,

so far, science hasn't shown this.

In fact, most, you know, literature
would show that there isn't a

prefrontal cortex in the horse.

But, you know, I would, I would
say that those are arbitrary

boundaries and they change over time.

So what I tell people is.

Look at the function.

Don't look at where that boundary lies
and says, well, this is prefrontal

cortex and the horse doesn't actually
have one because I know over time with

the sophisticated medical instruments
that we now have that I have no doubt

that we are going to find that the horse
has indeed has a prefrontal cortex and

indeed is capable of of much more than
we've ever given the horse credit for.

We just haven't had a
good way of measuring it.

And our measurement style
has been anthropomorphic.

Got it.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

So, so yes.

Could it be that there are parts of the
horse brain that behave in a way like

a prefrontal cortex, that we just as
yet can't identify, but clearly we can

see that behavior must be coming from
somewhere because the, the behavior seems.

Ubiquitous, to the species that
they are, they are by nature, a

very playful, species is one of the
great, wonderful things about horses.

But yes, if it's not coming
from prefrontal cortex,

if it's not coming from.

a human type area of the brain
where we would produce that from,

or I'm going to play a joke on
that person that's planning.

That's logic.

That's reason.

That's emotional regulation.

Yes, that's prefrontal cortex.

If the horse doesn't appear to have one.

It's fast.

It's intriguing to me.

What parts of the brain would be
producing a similar type of response?

do you think?


Dr. Steven Peters: that I think
it's just a matter of where we

arbitrarily have drawn a fence line
and we've come up with a criterion.

This is prefrontal cortex because
we say mice have prefrontal

cortex, but we say a horse doesn't.

And I think, you know, if you go back 20
years ago when I was in school, they said,

Oh, the human brain reaches like age 25
and never ever grows any more neurons.


Well, we know that that's now false.


You know, and.

Oftentimes things we said 20 years ago,
almost seem ludicrous now, but we held

it as if it were written in, in cement.

I like to think of things
much more out of the, the box.

And I think you see the, the,
behaviors you would associate

with the prefrontal cortex.

Do I have to point in the brain
where that prefrontal cortex is?

Listen to this.

There's a guy Wilder Penfield.

He was a Canadian neurosurgeon.

And what he would do is he would stimulate
electrically parts of people's brains.

And he might say, okay, I'm going to
go on this motor, the sensory strip

here, and I'm just going to touch
where, where the index finger is.

And he may touch there.

And that patient might say, well,
that tingles my index finger.

Another patient, exact same area.

Cause stereotypically they can
hone in right on that area.

touches them there, they say,
Oh, I feel that in my wrist.

And then somebody else might say,
well, I felt that up on my arm.

So what we learn is that
it's not like the textbooks.

You look at a textbook and you got
color coded areas of the brain.

You know, somebody who's
blind, for example, that's

not just fallow back there.

The occipital lobe, you know, that
occipital lobe will say, okay, since

we're not receiving input from the
visual system, let's let's send

some of that to auditory system.

So we know that sometimes like blind
musicians like Stevie Wonder or Ray

Orbison, it appears that they may
be using a lot more of their brain

That they would be using for visual
stimuli for auditory stimuli, which

may give them perfect pitch or a better
understanding of auditory because

they're using so much more brain force.

So, if you look at your brain,
because it's like a snowflake

your brain is not like my brain.

It's based on all your experiences,
your brain is just Oregon, which

interacts with the world and creates
something that helps us survive.


Horses just because we're using
a human measure to measure them.

I think once we find
functional MRI, we can do that.

And for your listeners, that's
a, that's imaging where we can

look at the brain in real time.

If we can do that with a horse
and that's just down the road.

then we'll be able to see some of
these prefrontal behaviors and know

exactly where that's coming from.

And indeed we may redraw the map
and say, Oh, well here's, here's

the horse's prefrontal lobe.

Rupert Isaacson: So it's, it's,
it's possible to say maybe

we haven't discovered it yet.


Because I mean, and when,
when, when one observes.

horses in a very natural setting or
wild horses, they clearly are making

complex decisions about that involves
some planning, like when they're going

to change, pastures, when they're
going to go to water, when they're

not going to go to water, being able
to work around predator movements.

they don't just blindly wander into them.

They know more or less what
the predator movements are

and make decisions around it.

but yes, where's it coming from?

it's really interesting that you
talk, talk about Penfield, right?

there's a book I recently read.

The body has a mind of
its own about body matter.

And one of the, one of the things
that the authors of that book,

touched upon was that equestrians.

have a uniquely complex form of body
mapping that they have to do because

they have to make the entire horse a
part of their body map, but the horse

has to do the same thing to the rider.

And this is why it's sort of a miracle
that the thing can even happen.

And then you've got these two
completely different brains.

trying to meld, but yet it happens.

Yet this miracle happens.

if, if, if we know that there are these
main differences between the horse and

the human brain, what, what do you think,
is the main difference between, and then

we talk about brains being snowflakes.

My brain's not your brain.

If we can respect that there are
these differences between the

horse and the human brain, what are
the main differences between the

neurotypical and the autistic brain?

And then we might need to know both
of those things if we're going to then

work with those populations with horses.

First we need to know, if I have
a somewhat neurotypical brain, I

need to know that the horse's brain
has these fundamental differences

that can give me a roadmap here.

Now I need to work with these humans.

that are like me and a
little bit not like me.

And then how do I put all three
of us together in a triumvirate?

Talk to us about the differences
between the autistic brain

and the neurotypical brain.

If you, if you feel that there are some.

Dr. Steven Peters: Yeah.

well, one area that
scientists looked at is, 37.

Brodman's area 37.

Area 37.

Now Brodman was a neuroanatomist
and he mapped out something like 53

brain areas and said these areas are
responsible for these, these behaviors.

we don't use it much anymore because
now we found there must be about

350 different areas and it's more
important how they're connected than

the job that they necessarily do.

And that that involves these
dendrites long axons with white

matter wrapping myelination.

that allow us to learn.

There's some thought that this area 37.

Well, there's not thought
about that because we call

it the fusiform facial area.

And when people in a functional MRI
look at faces, that area lights up.

Well, it doesn't seem to light
up with people who are autistic.

In fact, that area is used to
interpret facial expression,

social facial expression.

And that doesn't seem to be happening
with people who are autistic.

And so for me, oftentimes
even people I know well, out of

context, I can't, I can't put the
pieces of their face together.

I may see their eyes and their nose and,
and things, but I can't put it together.

Let's say as Rupert.

But then I hear your voice and it's
in context and pretty soon it all

comes together, but I get this like
deer in the headlights lost look, even

with people I know sometimes where
I can't put all of that together.

And then that impedes my social
interaction, because I'm not picking

up all those little nuances, you know,
I bore the hell out of somebody and

if everybody's yawning and, you know,
or somebody's feeling threatened.

if it's only in terms of their facial
expression, I may have trouble picking

that up, but oddly enough, I'm in,
I recognize patterns very easily.

You know, I recognize patterns
that I don't understand that

other people aren't picking up.

And so when I go out and interact with
a horse, that horse is giving me all

these patterns, you know, I'm seeing,
you know, where the head is, I'm seeing

where the jaw is, you know, I'm, I'm
noticing how tight they are, or how,

you know, how wide their eye is.

And so, almost like in a
snapshot, I picked that all up.

And I've come to think that that's,
that's my neurodivergence that,

that my brain sort of works that
way and automatically sees patterns.

I think that's why I love nature
and I'm often a remote setting.

Where I go out on hikes and I feel
comfortable because I recognize all the

patterns in, in nature, and it feels
very at home like, but you send me to

a cocktail party and I am at a loss.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

So, although I guess one could
argue that a cocktail party is part

of nature if humans are natural.

Yeah, let's let's let's
replace a campfire.

but I guess at a campfire.

You have the sort of option of
engaging directly in the banter

and the small talk or, you know,
hanging back a bit and looking at

the stars, but feeling connected.

Whereas in a cocktail party, you're
either doing the cut and thrust

rapier, you know, fencing of wit, or
you're not, and it's one or the other.

And so you're either in or you're
out, whereas in a more naturalistic.

Social setting.

you could have that going on and people
with neurodivergence being able to

be part of it as much or as little
as they wanted, perhaps, you know,

Dr. Steven Peters: there's so much
so many idiosyncrasies and so many

things that in this neurodivergence
and it's different for for all of us.

But that's why my wife is often
saying, you know, are you just being

an asshole or is this your, your.

You know, your autism,

Rupert Isaacson: my mom,
my mom, listen to me, Dr.

Freud, my mom, my wife says
exactly the same thing to me, but

Dr. Steven Peters: I can
be laser focused hours yet.

I'm easily distractible.

So there's all these, you
know, there's all these.


But when you, your original question
was about the horse for, for me, where

sensory overload can be a problem.

I like for my messages to be very clear.

And so I'm always trying
to open up an avenue.

And reduce the noise.

I don't want sensory overload,
so I need to reduce the noise

so I can understand the signal.

And so I, I interact
with my horse that way.

Am I bringing noise into our relationship?

I have to be more clear in,
in my communication with

you so that we can connect.

And I have to reduce the noise
so I can understand what message

you're sending back to me.

And so it's this sensory communication
between both of us that resets

both of our nervous systems.

At least that's the way it works for me.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you feel that,
because you do have trouble, processing,

at least processing quickly, the
multifarious, nuances of the human

facial emotional thing that it then
makes it easier for you to look at

the emotional patterns in horses
because they're not expressing it

so much through the face like we do.

It's not that they're not expressing
it through the face, of course

they are to some degree, but not
to the insane degree that we do.

Do you think that that makes it easier
for you to observe the patterns?

Dr. Steven Peters: You
know, that's a good question.

And, and, you know, some of this
isn't even science related because

I don't know if I can articulate.

necessarily the, the communication
so much you'd have to see it and say,

okay, I see Steve with his horses
and I, I have an idea of what, how

they're communicating with, with each
other because of how they're reacting.

I'll give you an example is that, I
insisted when I was seeing patients

of going out into the waiting
room and getting the patient.

So they're not aware that they're
being, you know, assessed at that time.

So their, their guard
is down a little bit.

And that I'd watch and they would stand up
maybe slowly, maybe shuffle a little bit.

Maybe they'd have reduced eye blink.

I'd almost have that patient diagnosed
before I ever reached the exam room.

And it was almost a snapshot.

Of understanding, but I didn't get
that in our interaction with looking,

you know, recognizing in their face.

It was more like a whole pattern
that came at me out at once.

And so it, it was just, it was an
understanding that was immediate.

And with the horse, I don't know
that I can point out, oh, it's,

you know, it's a thrashing tail.

It's the head up above the withers.

It's more just an immediate snapshot that.

And you get a comfort level when you
know you're accurate when you know

that the horse knows, and you know
that you understand that that horse.

It's almost immediate but indescribable
if you're going to try to for me

to try to break it down into into
science so I don't talk a lot about

training the horse necessarily other
than just setting up the best optimum

environment for brain to work.

Thank you.

And, and then I understand
that my autistic brain is, is

different than most neurotypical.

So I have to be careful that my esoteric
experiences aren't, so much different

than my audiences that they don't quite
grasp what I'm trying to get across.

Rupert Isaacson: Do you think
that, people that are running,

therapeutic writing programs, who
obviously are going to have quite a

lot of neurodivergent people there?

And a lot of people with autism.

is there perhaps a, an untapped, talent
pool among these autists, particularly

as they reach adulthood, if they spend
enough time with the horses to come in as

the trainers and maintainers of the horses
that are doing this job, because the

neurotypical people that are running these
programs could then benefit from this.

good pattern recognition that a
lot of these autistic people, once

they've got good familiarity with
the horse could share with them and

then bring them in less as clients
and more as part of the team.

Is that

Dr. Steven Peters: something that's,
that's a very interesting idea.


And, you know, we would be giving credit
for, for something versus having it be

unexplained and then treating the person
as if that talent wasn't worthwhile.

But, you know, putting that to use, I
look at things sometimes neurochemically

and you and I've had this discussion
kind of, you know, we've touched on this

before, but there are some scientists
that, that wonder whether Horses over

time haven't developed more serotonin
receptors to allow them to be more

emotionally balanced so they can interact
with us, and survive in our environment.

And so, I don't know that, that the
autistic person's interaction with a horse

isn't neurochemically setting the, their
situation where they're actually on a

cellular level, actually regulating each
other's serotonin receptors, which creates

an emotional balance between both animals.

Rupert Isaacson: That certainly seems to
be what in layman's terms would be, the

horse just seems to like them, right?

You know, you often observe this.

And for many of us, well,
that's a good enough thing.

But again, getting back to where we were
before with dendrites and axons, it's

really good to know why things work.

So what you just touched on there.

So let's say for example, if domesticated
mammals in general, probably, have

learned to evolve their way into better
serotonin, production so that they

can deal with these funky monkeys that.

have life or death
power over them, i e us.

and therefore, if the funky monkeys
that then come into their purview, who

seem more able to observe and interact
with their patterns in a way that makes

sense to that animal and therefore
brings 'em to better point of safety,

if it's coming down to co-regulation
of each other's, serotonin again, I

think what's wonderful about that is.

It allows one to say, well, and
perhaps it works because of this.

It's not just that the horse
irrationally likes them.

It's got this neurochemical component.

So therefore, once again, we can
regulate, we can replicate it.

this is something one could perhaps
begin to develop or explore in programs.

Because one of the things I'm
very interested in is, is, is

getting away from the paradigm of.

I'm the service provider and you're the
service user, you know, I'm the therapist

in your that it's never like that.

We know it's never like that.

you know, I learned more about
horses through working with my

autistic son than I ever did.

before I started working with him, he
opened up vast horizons of new knowledge.

For me, also about the brain, blah, blah,
blah, blah, complete two way street.

He completely made me understand about
oxytocin and BDNF and other things,

which I'd like to get into in a minute.

I do feel that we have a paradigm
within mental health that is exactly

the same as our paradigm that you
were talking about with some of the

less good things of horse training,
which is basically a power dynamic.

And although that's understandable and
somewhat natural to our species, it

behoves us to try to get beyond it.

When you bring, when you make those,
neurochemical, succinct, easily repeatable

phrases like, could it be that their
neuro, that their serotonin levels are co

regulating for this reason, and that this
population of human and this population

of horse have a good chemistry this way.

People can understand
that and it's useful.

Dr. Steven Peters: You know, there's
a scientist, Jeffrey Gray at King's

College in London, and he was looking
at activation of the amygdala.

And that's a structure in the brain
that we've associated with fear.

And remember earlier I talked
about having to feel safe.

The horse constantly asking, am I safe?

And you really can't learn.

Even humans, if you think you're going
to be beaten up by a gang member after

class, then you certainly can't be
focusing on your trigonometry homework.

So what he found was that those
mammals that had lower serotonin

levels had a more active, amygdala.

And those mammals with higher levels
of serotonin had a less active, it

dampened the activation of the amygdala.

So it made us, it, it plays a chemical
role in, in dampening down fear, thus

allowing interaction between two.

And this is more complicated
than, than we look.

This is sort of simplified, but if
you think about it, It's always a

neurochemical cocktail of some kind.

That's how Martin Black and I look at it.

And he says, you know, you're, you're
actually a bartender when you're

dealing with these horses, because if
you have too much norepinephrine, then

they can't get the norepinephrine will
have them too sympathetically aroused.

So they can't become curious, right?

If you have too much oxytocin,
then they're not going to

want to be away from the herd.

because they're going to want to
feel that huge dose of oxytocin

where they feel safe and bonded.

So you have to almost
introduce a new chemical.

Well, how about let's go out for
this trail ride and I'll give you

some problems to solve and you'll get
some big dopamine hits along the way.

which will then, you know, counteract
that withdrawal symptom of oxytocin.

So it's always this neurochemical balance.

And if we can find those ways to,
to, work with that system and

mix the best cocktails, then we're
going to have the best outcomes.

Rupert Isaacson: I 100% agree.

so for example, when we were trying
to understand why First, my son

and then other kids were becoming
verbal and communicative, who

were, who were severely autistic and
severely uncommunicative on horses

in collection, in soft collection.

again and again and again
and again and again.

a certain number of neuroscientists
pointed out an oxytocin connection there

and also oxytocin, helping with bringing
down the amygdala response, the fight,

flight, freeze response and the cortisol.

stress hormone blocking the intellect.


And then, we had it explained to us that
although most, hormones are producing

relatively localized areas of the body,
oxytocin, the communication hormone, as

well as the pleasure hormone get will be
produced in your gut in all your other

organs as well, make its way up to the
pituitary gland and sing like a choir.

and get this even bigger
effect because it, for various

reasons, our bodies want it.

but that at the same time, because of
this activation of the gut through the

hip rocking, you're getting serotonin.

And then at the, at the same
time, you're getting dopamine as

you say, because there's, you're
now problem solving as you go.

Even if the problem solving is
simply finding your balance, let

alone actually, an activity.

And then of course there's
endorphins kicking in.

And so, yes, I totally agree with you.

with horses now and when we're working
with people and I'm not just talking

autistic people with myself, I'm always
looking exactly as you say, like a

bartender to, to dose myself on these,
neurochemicals, which I know my body will

produce or will be produced in the horse's
body or will be produced in, in the, in

the, client's body or the kid's body.

You, however, mentioned a word.

That I don't know.

So I'm gonna ask you to repeat it.


Dr. Steven Peters: Oh, no, epinephrine.

Rupert Isaacson: Let's, let's,
let's just spell that out for me,

cause I'm, I'm writing it down.


N o r

Dr. Steven Peters: n o r e P i N

Rupert Isaacson: e P i N.

Dr. Steven Peters: Let me write it down.

No, N oei.

N e

Rupert Isaacson: E p.


Dr. Steven Peters: t h t h e r I n.

Rupert Isaacson: Wow.

That's a, that's a doozy.

That sounds like a, a challenge.

Thailand or something.




Norepinephrine nor, no, no.

Pin, no.

I think, I think I've
written it down wrong.

Can you do it?


my listeners, but please bear with us
because this, this is something we need.

Can, can you spell it
out for me again please?


Dr. Steven Peters: N O.








Rupert Isaacson: P.




Dr. Steven Peters: P.













Nora Epinephrine.

Rupert Isaacson: Nora Epinephrine.



Talk to us about

Dr. Steven Peters: that.

What is that?

Yeah, that plays a major role
in the, in the nervous system.

We need a small amount of Nora
Epinephrine to alert, What

it'll do, it sensitizes neurons.

It sensitizes the amygdala.

It's a sensitizer.

So if we have a

Rupert Isaacson: small amount
mean, what does that mean?

What does that mean?

We don't even know what that means.

Dr. Steven Peters: What it means
it makes neurons more active.


And turbo boost fuel need a
small amount of norepinephrine

so that I can pay attention.

So my brain can say,
Hey, this is important.

I better focus on this.

But if I get too much.


Then it's going to turn into, to
cortisol and run that entire circuitry.


Rupert Isaacson: it cortisol or
could it equally turn into something

better, something more pleasurable?

Or will it always go to...

If it's at

Dr. Steven Peters: low levels, it can
turn into something more pleasurable.

So let's say I have a low level of
norepinephrine that's allowing me to

pay attention to what you're telling me.

You tell me something then that is so
interesting, it creates a dopamine hit

on my brain and actually takes a couple
of neurons and, and fastens them together

to broaden my, my neural network.

And I get a dopamine
hit and it feels good.

And the norepinephrine helped me focus
my attention long enough, because your

brain is only made up of what you've
ever paid attention to in your life.

That's why your brain is
so different than mine.

It's what you focused on, paid
attention and your norepinephrine

helped you to do that.

However, if I had too much
norepinephrine in my system, it

would sensitize the amygdala and
I'd be worried and I'd be stressed.

And I would, I would come apart
and under that, that constant high

dose of norepinephrine, actually
it would shrink the window of

what I would be able to tolerate.

And so my nervous system would actually
reset and I'd be hyper alert, worried

all the time, anxious, filled with
anxiety and flooded with norepinephrine.


Rupert Isaacson: what creates and
where, what creates norepinephrine

and where is it created in the

Dr. Steven Peters: body?

Thank you.

norepinephrine is created
in an area called the locus

coeruleus in the brainstem.

The locus coeruleus,
it's Latin for blue area.

because that's what it looked like when
they died it and, and, and looked at it.

So I need some, but it quickly gets
to the amygdala, it quickly gets to

the hippocampus, and the hippocampus
is a structure related to memory.

So I don't want to necessarily
be sensitizing the hippocampus.

Amygdala and the hippocampus
at the same time, because then

I'm creating a fear memory.

I'm creating a trauma, even a small
trauma, but a trauma nonetheless.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so how do
we, how do we what, what causes the

norepinephrine to be, produced?

Like is, is it movement
based, sympathetic arousal.

Yeah, but arousal, there's many,
there's so many forms of arousal and

epinephrine before the arousal or is the
arousal the cause of the norepinephrine?

Dr. Steven Peters: Let's say I'm
constantly in my system going to

have some degree of norepinephrine
unless I must sleep on my feet.

So I get my horse for example, and I
take them out to teach them something.

And I noticed that.

their head starts to come up above
the withers, that their eyes get wide.

So I say, you know what, we're
reaching a point where we're getting

too much norepinephrine here.

I'm going to let you
reset your nervous system.

So I step back, I pause, the horse's
head comes down, they start to lick

and chew, they start to feel more
comfortable, then we re approach that.

And each time we do that, we
widen that window of tolerance so

norepinephrine on board, It's not
overwhelming the system, but let's

say I don't answer that question.

My horse's head comes above the withers.

The eyes get a little wide.

I keep pressuring my horse,
their head now comes way up.

I see these tendons tighten in their jaw.

They start to look for a way to escape.

So they're already starting
to think fight or flight.

And if I keep pressuring the horse,
trying to teach them something in

that state, they're now flooded
with too much norepinephrine.

I know it's starting
to go to the amygdala.

And I know that the next response,
if they're more threatened is, is a

default to fight or flight cortisol.

So it's an art of learning how to
set and reset the nervous system

enough times so that the horse knows
that they can come down the other

side, find that pause and relax.

before the next.

It's almost like you.

If you were on a diving board, if I let
you walk out there and then walk back,

you have an internal locus of control.

You sit on the edge of the diving
board, dangle your feet over.

And then you sit on the board
and fall into the pool and then

eventually dive off pretty soon.

You're doing great.

And your window of
tolerance is pretty wide.

So you're, you're feeling
really comfortable with that.

You had some norepinephrine aboard that
made you, well, I better pay attention.

I don't want to fall off the board.

I better pay attention.

I don't want to just drop off the edge of
the board and suck up a bunch of water.

But what if I stood behind you and I kept
pushing you and you start to dig your

feet in now you're so sympathetically
aroused you're filled with norepinephrine

and then let's say I throw you in and
you take in a bunch of water in your

lungs and you get up and you're coughing.

Now, that whole situation has
become traumatized so that

standing on that diving board is a
different experience the next day.

based on neurochemically what I've done
to you because of what neurochemicals

were at what level of arousal.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So basically it sounds like you've just
explained from a neuroscientist point of

view, the concept of less is more and the
concept of softly, softly catchy monkey.

And although those are common sense
things, because we observed that if

you don't do them, things go wrong.

Again, it's really
helpful to be able to say.

Look, the reason why you don't want
to push for that extra step in the

training, or the reason why you want
to now leave the horse alone a little

bit, or the reason why you want to
leave that kid alone a little bit now.

Or the reason why you want to let
them come to a concept as gradually as

possible is that you're avoiding this
neuropinephrine thing, which they need

just enough of to pay attention and learn.

But if we push it over the edge,
we're going to fuck up everything

we're trying to learn because
cortisol is going to come in and

just stomp on it like a big old boot.

And then we'll have to start all
over again from the beginning.


People can get because I think I think
what's tricky is that yeah Less is more

and softly softly catchy monkey and
go gradually and all of these things.

Yes, they're common sense however, there
are only common sense to people who have

a sort of innate personality that way and
Others who don't who are very impatient.

I've been very impatient in
my younger life you come to it

by making a bunch of mistakes.

However, if we're trying to help
people not to have to make quite the

same number of mistakes that I made,
say, it's useful to have these terms.

because, because they're understandable.

So, norepinephrofen.

Dr. Steven Peters: Norepinephrine.

Rupert Isaacson: Norepinephrine.

Let's say it three times.




Now it's in my brain.


You got it.

Dr. Steven Peters: and when we're done,
go look it up and then you'll see the

difference between pad and adrenaline.

It's one to put in your
toolbox and, and, and be

Rupert Isaacson: aware of.

Is norepinephrine a, a,
a hormone or is it a...

Dr. Steven Peters: Yes, it's a hormone
and a neurotransmitter as many of these

Rupert Isaacson: are.

So therefore it's also a
protein, would that be correct?


Okay, okay.


In small doses good and in big
doses not so good basically, right

Dr. Steven Peters: if i'm
sensitizing Your brain, I don't

want to hypersensitize you right?

And it's interesting that you brought
up if you, if you screw it up, you

have to go back to the beginning.


If you screw it up, you can't
get back to the beginning.

You were at before, you know,
you're actually two steps behind

the beginning when you come back

Rupert Isaacson: at it.

You've created trauma.

I mean, this, I, I saw so often in, the
worst kind of behavioral, approaches

with autistic kids when my son was
very young and these kids were just.

Would get to a point where they were
trying to climb through the wall or

climb through the door or climb over
the person and you had exactly the

same thing being said by the therapist
that people would say about horses

See, they're being disrespectful.

They're being this they're being that and
saying no, man, they're just terrified

They're just terrified and I remember
thinking Wow as a horseman if I was in a

rampen with a horse and they were trying
to climb out over the fucking fence to get

out when I'm trying to do something, then
presumably I should change something about

what I'm doing or I'm going to get killed.

Forget the horse.

I'm going to get killed.

but of course, because it's only
a child and we're adults and we

can overall Children with our
greater physical strength and size.

This doesn't come into the
picture until the child gets big

enough to to physically hurt you.

And then, of course, they resort to
drugs to, Control that behavior.

And so it seems to me that the
problem is always about the idea of

trying to control behavior, right?

Dr. Steven Peters: Exactly.

We want to be in charge of this
because we feel uncomfortable.

It's getting out of control.

So I'm going to control.

But one of the most stressful
things that you can do to a horse

is restrain them confinement.

If you look at, at when most of
the wrecks occur, it's that yank

around, I'm clamped onto the horse.

I'm, you know, I'm forcing the horse.

So restraint actually increases
sympathetic arousal instead of

brings it back, back down again.

I think one of the things most
missing because we're egotistical,

we want to make things happen.

Is there that we don't use the pause
enough and allowing the nervous system

to reset the brain is fantastic.

It can replay things that happen.

Well, and make those neuronal connections.

All we can do is interrupt those
if we keep drilling and grinding

away without allowing the brain
to assimilate those in a good way.

And sometimes the greatest gift
to give our horse is space.

Rupert Isaacson: 100%.

You know, you're probably aware of the
legendary, , Portuguese, , horse trainer

from the 20th century, Nuno Oliveira.

And one of his great quotes was, , when
your horse has made a really good

try dismount, don't end the session,
smoke a cigarette down to its butt,

take all your attention away from
the horse and allow him to simply.

Pause, then remount and go on.

And I remember reading that
and as an autism dad go, well,

that makes sense actually.

So I started doing that and I don't smoke.

So what I do is let's say
I'm training something.

He was using the PF.

, so something that's complex where the
horse has to give, you know, really a

hundred percent attention and a hundred
percent buy in, , in order to pull

everything in the brain body together.

And, . So now, particularly when I'm
training anything complex like that, I

look for, I feel for a try, a good try.

And then I do exactly, I
dismount, but I don't smoke.

So I do texts.

I'll pull my phone out and I'll
look in a different direction, but I

hang with the horse at his shoulder.

And I might keep a hand on him or,
or, or scratch him or whatever.

But basically my attention has gone away.

And I answer a couple of emails and
actually my attention does go away because

suddenly I do need to answer this email.

And I, what I realized
is it works for me too.

Gets me out of that neuro epiprofen
over aroused thing, because we know that

we, when we train horses, we ourselves
as funky monkeys can get a little

bit intense about the whole thing.

And I think the same is true.

Obviously, when we're working.

As in, in a therapeutic environment,
we're so, for the best of reasons, wanting

to get a good result and deliver that.

Sometimes we can push, , and to be able
to put it in those terms, neuro ibuprofen,

, and say, let's try and avoid that.

Let's allow pauses.

So again, when you go to

Dr. Steven Peters: sleep that
night, there's a neurochemical

acetylcholine your brain.

How do you spell that?

Boy, you're giving me some real.

Rupert Isaacson: Acetylcholine.

Acetylcholine was a waitress, I think, at
a diner that I used to go to in Virginia.




Dr. Steven Peters: A C e A c
e t y t Y l t y l c h o l i n

Rupert Isaacson: e c h o l i n E.

I'm gonna read it back to you.

A C e t y l c h o l i n E.

That's it.





Tell me about this acetylcholine thing.

What's this acetylcholine thing?

Dr. Steven Peters: You know, when you
learn something, your brain just doesn't,

, just pop up neurons any old where, right?

As you sleep, you, you'll prune
off and weekend synapses that

aren't helpful to you as you, as
you get better at doing something.

And the cetylcholine almost goes in
like a magic marker and a highlighter.

We're going to make a connection here.

The best connection would be here.

The next best connection would be here.

And then those neurons
go and connect that way.

So, what happens is, If you recall,
when you first learned to ride a bicycle

and the training wheels came off, you
would get reach a point of diminishing

returns trying to ride that day.

And you think I'm never
going to learn this.

But then you went to sleep at
night and you had a pause and

your brain got to replay this.

And acetylcholine said, no, if you
would have hooked this to this, and

you would have changed this, so your
neural networks actually form new

connections, the next day, somehow,
magically, you've gotten better.

And all we can do is interrupt that
process with the horse when they've

gotten something and understand it.

Our ego says, let's do it again,
let's do it again, let's do it again.

Then they check out.

And then, then we reach
diminishing returns.

Now they do it worse.

So we feel like we have to pundit, we
have to get after him even more to get

back to where we were when you got it.

That's the time to pause and
let the brain do its work.

And especially overnight, because if you
leave them in a good neurochemical state,

the next day, they'll be twice as good.

I guarantee

Rupert Isaacson: you.

Go ahead.


Dr. Steven Peters: If you push
it and you stress them out and you

create a trauma, you can also wire
this in a way you may not want.

So that horse may be
twice as bad the next day.

If you've decided you're
going to create a fight.


Rupert Isaacson: Neuroplasticity can
be negative as well as positive, right?

One can go in a good way.

, So, are you saying that we produce
more acetylcholine at night?

Dr. Steven Peters: At night it
does a certain, a different job.

We need acetylcholine, it
helps us pay attention as well.

It helps us focus, because where your
attention goes, this is a little, phrase

that neuroscientists use, where attention
goes, neural, neural connections grow.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

, thoughts become things basically,

Dr. Steven Peters: right?


And when you do that, you fire that
neuron and then if you fire it again

and you got it right, it stimulates
a myelin wrapping that then allows

things to travel more efficiently
without loss of information and faster.

So, as you rewire your
brain in this fashion.

There's a, a neuroimaging called
diffusion tensor imaging, and you can

look at the white matter and let's say
I saw a kid who was a piano protege.

The areas of his brain that he
uses to play the piano are gonna

be so puffy with white matter.

He'll have layer after layer
of that wrapping on there.

This, this one, the white is the

Rupert Isaacson: wrapping.

It's, it's the insulation on the white.

It's the

Dr. Steven Peters: information highway.

That is more important in learning than
necessarily the parts of the brain.

So when we point and say, Oh,
look at, you know, that's the

part that works the finger.

It's better to say, this is a complex
system, and it's the wiring and the

information highway that's actually.

the key to

Rupert Isaacson: the efficiency of how the
information is passed along the highway.


And the more insulation it has, the
more myelination it has, the more of

the white matter it has insulating the
wire, the smoother it's going to go.

You got it.


So here's a question though.

Do we, do we produce more?


Dr. Steven Peters: acetylcholine.

Rupert Isaacson: Acetylcholine, , do we,
I'm gonna do this in text action kinda.

Do we, do we all produce, do our asses
produce more acetylcholine when we all,

when our asses are asleep at night?

Or do we produce an equal amount of it?

Whe whether we, awake or asleep.

Why is the sleeping
part of it so important?

Dr. Steven Peters: I think it
has a different job to do in

sleep because in sleep we don't
have all the outside distractions

because interrupting our attention.

Acetylcholine has to help us
with our attention focusing it.

But when we're asleep We don't,
we don't have that same demand.

And so we can go and do our rewiring.

That's when we're assimilating
all this information.

That's where some neuroscientists
think our dreams are just things

that we've taken in during the
day that we're then assimilating

in the, in the brain at night.

So the acetylcholine, I can't say that
there's more acetylcholine produced at

night, but acetylcholine's job changes.

to okay solidifying the wiring.

Rupert Isaacson: So is
acetylcholine at night when it

becomes its meta effectiveness?

That's what we call sleeping on it.



Basically we want to go
sleep with acetylcholine.

Dr. Steven Peters: we do okay.

We want, we wanna have a, an
affair with acetacholine.

Rupert Isaacson: We wanna have an
intimate relationship with acetylcholine.

Got it.


So we want to pause,

Dr. Steven Peters: because
what happens if you don't sleep?

Your attention goes out the window.


And, and if you, after a while, you get
sleep deprived over a number of days.


Your attention span really shrinks.

In fact, if you did it long enough,
you'd probably start to hallucinate.

And that's what happens with people
that are sleep deprived for long

periods of time where their bodies
are just trying desperately to get

Rupert Isaacson: to sleep.



norepinephrine, norepinephrine,
norepinephrine, norepinephrine,

why can't I get it right?

I'm going to try it again.

Maybe, maybe a southern
accent will help me.

Norepinephrine, norepinephrine.

Y'all got some norepinephrine.

I got some good norepinephrine
right there, right there.

And so that's, that's gonna,
that's going to stimulate.

a little bit good, too much,
not good over into the red zone.

So we want some of that for attention.

And then we want some, acetylcholine,
acetylcholine to, to help us to then

build the, white matter, the, the, the
myceliation, that the, the insulation

along the, the wires that, and if
we sleep on it, If we stop before

we go to a red zone and then allow a
sleep cycle pause, then when we come

back the next day, we've allowed.

Dr. Steven Peters: We've, we've
reduced a lot of the noise.

And so by, by hearing off the, the,
the synapses that we don't need by

weakening them and strengthening others.


Then we, we actually bring a
different brain to work the next

Rupert Isaacson: day.


So what it often feels to me, for
myself, for my horses and for a

lot of the people I work with.

Is that over time when we do this,
we effectively grow ourselves a new

brain, you know, I am, I become a
different person over a certain number

of days over a certain number of
months over a certain number of years.

The horse certainly does, the,
you know, we get these horses

that come in and start with, you
know, effectively no fucking way.

And then they go to me and then they
go to, and then they go to, okay.

And then they go to at your service.

And we, we observe this process time
and time again, and what I've generally

put it down to through the explanation
of neuroscience is, is BDNF, Brain

Derived Neurotrophic Factor, i.


neuroplasticity, kicking in
through moving and problem solving.

That's how it's been explained to me.

Are these two components
neuro, neuro, neuroepiprofen?




And acetylcholine.

Aspects of BDNF, they must also
be proteins, right, to somebody,

because BDNF is a protein.

Are they aspects of brain
derived neurotrophic factor that

Are they things that a, yeah.


Dr. Steven Peters: tell.


Not to get too far afield,
but let's draw that.

All that picture all together.

Cortisol, we call that a, glucocorticoid.

A glucocorticoid, right?

Stress, much cortisol, right?

So if we have too much glucocorticoid
on board, we're stressed out, right?

But if, if we're resilient to stress,
if we brought been brought up in

a loving environment, nurturing
environment, we can create what's

called glucocorticoid receptors.

What these glucocorticoid
receptors do is they'll take the

glucocorticoid and mediate it.

so that it won't have that impact.

So the more glucocorticoid
receptors you have, the more

resilient you are to stress.

And we find like rat pups who lick
their pups, those pups grow up

feeling loved and feel they have
more glucocorticoid receptors.

So they're more resistant to stress.

So there's now a connection between
the amount of glucocorticoid

receptors and the amount of BDNF that
you have in your, in your system.

BDNF, we know that, that, you can produce
that by exercise and movement, right?

But also you can optimize
that by feeling safe.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So environment has a big part
of it and mammalian care.

So oxytocin must have a big part of
it then because they must be getting

Dr. Steven Peters: right.

And now you're starting to
really put together the pieces.

that this truly is a cocktail
that's very complicated that

we have to keep measuring.

so when people tell me, you
know, well, dopamine does this

and that explains everything.

Well, that's just one of the
things that you're taking out of

your bar here and mixing together.

And so Martin Black would tell
me the guy, Tom Dorrance, who

was so affected with horses.

Martin describes him as the master
bartender that he couldn't articulate

what was going on, but he kept, he take
those horses that were maybe docile and,

and, and passive and bring up energy
in them, not stress them, but bring

up energy and the opposite horses that
seemed highly stressed, he could bring

them down and make them feel comfortable.

So there were things that he
was doing to create a cocktail

regardless of where the horse was.

In this whole spectrum of behaviors,
it, we all have neurochemicals in us,

and we all have brains, and we may have
nervous systems that are set here if

you're an Arab, and set here if you're
a draft horse, but nonetheless, you can

still work with this neurochemistry.

Rupert Isaacson: Why then, is
this neurochemistry not taught?

in most therapeutic, training modalities.

And why is it not a
part of, horse training?

because when I say part of horse
training, I mean, for example,

I'm sitting here in Germany.

And, so things are quite regulated here.

You can't just, for example, show up
and say, I'm a dressage trainer or I'm

a, yeah, you'd have to set show what
your training was, what you did, and

it's all regulated by something called
the FN, the Federation Nationale,

governs a little bit like the U.


Equestrian Federation, but more German.

it has a whole system of teaching.

No brain science for horse or rider.

the British horse society, the same
thing, the USCF, the same thing.

and that's before you go into, getting
trained to be a therapeutic writing

instructor or something like that, where
we began this conversation that you're

trying to reach a fellow human being.

Well, that's the brain you're
trying to reach a horse.

Well, that's the brain.

Yet this, all these things that
we've covered in the last hour,

they're not part of any mainstream.

training thing, equine or equine
assisted or sport equine that I have come

across, let alone teaching in schools.

Why is that?

Dr. Steven Peters: Well, I
think there's a lot of reasons.

One is it creates a tremendous
amount of cognitive dissonance.

If somebody's identity Is tied to a
method of training and we've been rigid

and it passed down and, and you can't
go outside this, this method of training

because then you're in the enemy camp.

So we've almost built these, these
rigid camps and you get ostracized

by your, your social group if you're
now in another way of thinking.

But if, if my whole social
identity is in the 20 years that

I've been brought up in a system.


And then I have to rethink
that and let go of that.

It's much easier to say, that's a bunch
of baloney, or that's too complicated.

So that's one piece of it.

Now, dopamine happens to be one
neurochemical that people look at,

because dopamine underlies It's every
study that that's linked to learning.

You have to be motivated to learn and you
set things up so you'll be motivated to

learn positive reinforcement, etc, etc.

But why are all the other neuro
chemicals left left out of this.

University veterinary programs about this.

They said, yeah, you know, I said, I'm
reading research, you know, that shows,

you know, that the same neurochemistry is
working in humans that works in horses.

They've got all the same stuff here.

And they said, well, that's just
too complicated for the lay public.

You know, that's just.

That's, that's out there.

In fact, when I went to Scotland and
I, I, I gave presentations to large

veterinary groups, They get very little
of that part of things in their schooling.

This was all new stuff to them,
even in the equine medical world.

and basically it's been my mission
to try to, to translate this into

lay terms and trying to find.

Concepts and, and, examples that are
understandable to the lay person, because,

I, I think this is, important stuff
and you see it in the medical field.

Let me give you an example, you know,
with autism, you, you end up with

a protocol that's in place, right?

And we've always followed this protocol.

And so, you know, your, your child is
going to be sent to, let's say speech

therapy and physical therapy, and that's.

That's the way that this,
the prescription is written.

And so everybody gets on
the same page with that, and

they've done it for 10 years.

So that must be the way
that we, we, we do this.

And so, you know, it's easy to dismiss.

You get cognitive dissonance and
you dismiss this as out of the

box or way out there, wacky stuff.


Rupert Isaacson: dissonance
in layman's terms means...

I don't quite get it, so
I'm going to dismiss it.


Dr. Steven Peters: Or, you
know, it's threatening to the

beliefs that I hold currently.

And I've got to change my worldview
if I'm going to accept that.

That's too hard for me to do.

They don't do that consciously.

That's too hard for me to do, so I'm
going to stay right here with what I got.

And, you know, there's nothing
more rigid and traditional than

horse training and horse camps.

Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's
an interesting thing

that, that now we're in a.

A moment in history where the horse
is once again, changing its role

with humans, at least in the West.

so it's gone from transport to livestock,
to war, to, entertainment, to sport.

And now it's coming into therapy.

And it's not that it's completely
lost those other functions either.

They're still there.

However, where people were saying maybe
10 or 20 years ago, we used to hear a

lot of people saying, Oh, the horse has
now become irrelevant to modern life.

It's just purely, a recreational thing.

And now I think that that shifted
again and the vast, development

of the equine assisted.

universe, because it's not
just special needs anymore.

It's, it's, it's anxiety.

It's people just wanting to
understand it's team building.

It's people wanting to understand
human interaction and metaphors.

And whether you get into, should
we anthropomorphize that or not is

almost an irrelevant thing because
we can only anthropomorphize because

it's the only lens through which we
can view, and presumably that will

get more and more developed and more
and more nuanced, blah, blah, blah.

But nonetheless, the horse is right there
in this professional role with us again.

In a new way, and it seems
that the neuroscience is at the

absolute, foundation of this.

Why it works, people might not know
why it works, but as soon as the

neuroscience is explained, they're like,
oh yes, I see, okay, that makes sense.

Yet it's not, the neuroscience is
not in the training protocols yet.

for, as you say, not for veterinary,
not for sport, and interestingly, not

much for The, the, the therapeutic
end we, we at Horsepoy and Movement

Method only have it in because we
got curious about why it was working.

And then we went and talked to a number
of neuroscientists and we basically

got the same answer from them all.

So it allowed us to come up with a
diagram that we could go back to them

and say, are you basically saying that
You've got this overdeveloped amygdala.

You've got too much cortisol.

You've got this
overdeveloped nervous system.

They're firing off each other.

You're getting into a
vicious cycle with this.

And now we can come along with some
hip rocking and some oxytocin, and

this is calming the nervous system
and, also create, switching off

the amygdala, but also creating
BDNF because they're balancing.

And therefore we get to the
prefrontal cortex and therefore,

and they kind of looked at it.

There were several kind of
went, well, yeah, kind of.

And we said, okay, well, this is very
helpful for us because now and what we

found is that in no way Has the layman
had any trouble understanding this?

Okay, some some of the terms Like I
keep mispronouncing Neuropenephrine.

Neuropenephrine and, I say...




And it will take me some, some,
some repetitions of that, but

things like oxytocin and things
like BDNF are relatively easy to

stay or Purkinje cells or some of
the other stuff that we get into.

And of course, a lot of this
is just simply, about...

Get practicing and getting familiar,
and we do know that scientists love

their jargon and they love to come up
with Multi syllable complicated words

that are just frankly difficult to
remember because a neuroscientist would

have as much difficulty remembering
Something in another language in several

syllables as as this it just happens
to be their field however I do think

that most people are really up for it.

I think that most people are open to it.

I think there's a real hunger for it.

So you say that you're not
to mention a need for it.

You you're going and you're giving,
you mentioned coming back from

Scotland and talking to groups of,
of, veterinary students there.

and so, so you're clearly
going out and about turning

people onto this neuroscience.

What, what's your, what's your basic.

A, B, C that you go into your
average lay audience with.

And say these, this is the boom,
boom, boom that you need to understand

to make your shit go better.

Hit us.

What is it?

Dr. Steven Peters: Well, basically
what I'll do is I'll take images

because images are better than jargon,
you know, and I'd stay away from the

big words and, and if they're going to
run across them in the literature and

they want to search for them, like on
Google Scholar or Science Direct, you

know, I tell them where to go to also.

, get information because, you know,
the, there's so much pseudoscience

out there in social media that
they can get really pulled off.

Basically, what I'll do is, is.

We look at horses in
certain different states.

So, a horse that's in a parasympathetic
mode, a horse that's alert with some

acetylcholine aboard, a horse that
now has too much norepinephrine,

and they're looking for fight or
flight, a horse that's been totally

restrained, taken away fight or
flight that's now gone into freeze.

which is a different response than
just being parked and comfortable.

And we talk about what's going
on in those horses brains.

How did they get there?

And then how can you create an
environment that you'll recognize these

things and, and set up environments
where your horse can get there.

And so what people leave is being able
to better connect with their horses, have

a better understanding and language of
what's going on in their horse's brain.

And this is most empowering.

What I tell them is that you are
going to be responsible for the

amount of dendrites and neuronal
connections in your horse's brain.

You can create a special forces horse
that's filled with dendrites and super

smart, or you can pair them all down
and just get a robotic kind of horse.

That you're not connected with,
but you are, regardless of what you

do, you're responsible for creating
that brain because that horse lives

with you and interacts with you.

And I think just that message
alone, is, is one they take home.

And I tell them, don't believe me.

Just ask your horse.

Just go out and experiment
because everybody's a scientist.

You don't have to have a big name.

Everything is data.

Everything is experience and information.

Go out there and try things with your
horse and, and, and work with your horse.

Your horse is an individual
as well with its own makeup.

and that's kind of the package I put

Rupert Isaacson: together.

So basically you're saying go
create dendrites and axons.

Yes, axons meetings of dendrites

Dr. Steven Peters: in axon is the
long nerve ending, but at the end of

that we'll branch out all these, these

Rupert Isaacson: dendrites.


So the axon is the main branch, the
dendrite, the dendrites of the chest.


Got it.

And so

Dr. Steven Peters: if a message
comes in, it might come in

through the dendrite into the

Rupert Isaacson: axon and pass on its way.

And then the axon, the axon will
then take it further into the,

the nervous system that's Right.

Bagel nerve.


Those things.


So go create a bunch of, of,
of dendrites and axons, create

this forest of functional brain.

behavior in your self, in your horse,
in your child, in your person that

you're working with by doing a bunch
of cool shit in a non stressful way.

I'll give you a

Dr. Steven Peters: real quick example.

Let's say you have a horse that rears
because somebody's restrained them, taken

away fight or flight, sort of whipped at
them and all they're left with was Yeah.

So then somebody else inherits
this horse and says, that's a bad

horse that will get you killed.

Let's put this horse down.

Or you could approach it as this
horse has been so overwhelmed with

norepinephrine that what I have to do is
one, make them feel safe, first of all.

So I have to go back because the horse is
now a victim of that neuronal connection.

It's now in place.

They can't help it.

That's what the norepinephrine
is just going to send information

down that pathway to survive.

What I have to do is show that horse,
it doesn't need to go take that

pathway by creating good pathways.

So they're getting more and more
serotonin and balancing out.

Once I get it to a certain level,
then I can start to say, okay,

now let's go get some dopamine.

You're at a place where you can
finally start to, to get some dopamine.

And then they get really, they
learn to learn and they're looking

for every opportunity to learn.

Now I've got a horse
that I'm out riding with.

It's comfortable, calm, and looking
at new things as opportunity.

And that would have been a horse I would
have put down if I just left them with

that old connected network in that.

And people who see that get scared.

So then they feel like they have
to provide some kind of punishment

and you're really just reinforcing
creating more white matter on

that dysfunctional pathway.

Rupert Isaacson: Right.

Um, so, okay, so Let's go again.

So let's take a, let's take our human
or our horse, that human, us, that human

could be the person that we're working
with if we're in an equine assistive

context, the person, or it could be
our riding student and it can certainly

be our horse because all of us who
are going out into this environment

together are taking a nervous system
and a brain with us and let's create

as many dendrites and axons as we can.

And get those, hopefully those,
those dendrites, those twigs to brush

against each other to buy lots and
lots of cool new stimuli, but let's

be careful to do enough norepiprofen
to get things stimulated, but not

so much that we overstimulate.

So let's do a bunch of pausing and
let's use, some serotonin oxytocin

things like having their friends along.

Or older horses that can make them feel
safe or empathetic touch or many of

these that will create these chemicals
and then we can, when they're, when

they have learned something or are
clearly learning something, let's

pause and go away and sleep on it
with our, with our dear friend,

as say to colon.

so that in the course of that pause.

long or short, those neural pathways can
be established in, in the positive way.

the BDNF, the brain derived neurotrophic
factor can kick in, in a way that

is lasting, not just in the moment.

And we are in a positive progression.

Is that.

More or less, sir,

Dr. Steven Peters: in a nutshell,
that is, you hit the nail on the head.

Rupert Isaacson: So if I were to
come along, if I was to, from this

conversation, produce a little diagram of
that, I think I'm going to, I'm going to

try and I'm going to bring it back to you.

And then you'll tell me if
I've got it right or wrong.

I have to tweak it and
then we'll tweak it.

I think that would be a useful thing.

For me as a guideline to then also
when I'm working with my students

and when I'm working with my whoever
I'm working with to point to that

diagram and say, well, look, Dr.

Steve takes us through this.

if we could be mindful of this process,
we're respecting the brain science.

And if you forget how to pronounce
norepiprofen and acetylcholine, it's

all right, because you just know
what to do in order to get them.

You know, this is, this is exactly the
kind of information that I'm always

looking for, because I think, you know,
when, what, the thing that mystified me

when I went to see the neuroscientist
To get the explanations about why

what we were doing was working was I
was like, well, why are you, why do

I have to come and fucking find you
and hunt you down like a wild coyote?

Why isn't this information
sort of out there?

And they sort of say, well, honestly,
rude people aren't interested.

we're here doing our neuroscience
stuff and we publish our stuff,

but I'll give you an example.

at the University of Texas, you know,
. Where we worked a bit with the autism

lab and in the beginning bit with my son,
because my ex wife was a professor there.

and then we just ran straight into
a kind of nightmare of behaviorism.

The, the, the neuroscientists were just
a couple of meters away, and they had

all the information that would have
made that behavioral approach better.

Yet those people were not talking
to each other, just on a human Based

on that set of academics, we're not
talking to that set of academics.

And that's where it became sort of siloed.

And then one has to go out and
actually seek the knowledge.

Even though it's hiding in plain
sight, but you're there coming along

and letting us know, is this, is
this the basic one, two, three that

you're taking people through, whether
it's vet schools or horse training or?

Dr. Steven Peters: Yeah.

And no matter what program you
have, no matter what discipline

you have, you know, you could say
this is the right way to do it.

A, B and C and D.

You can come up with any program
you want positive reinforcement,

negative reinforcement, whatever
you use clicker training, et cetera.

The brain is going to process
it in the brain's terms.

So, no matter what program you
have, understanding how the brain

processes it, because the brain
doesn't care what program you have,

it wants to be able to best process.

So setting up the environment that
best allows brains to do that, and

oftentimes in this busy world, merely
slowing down enough to assimilate

information gets you farther down
the road than if you tried to force

things to happen when the brain doesn't
actually want to take it in that way.

Rupert Isaacson: So I'm just
writing my little diagram here.



So we, we know that we don't
need, if anything is overwhelmed,

then it's going to be a disaster.

This seems to be the, the
neuroscience of horse sense, the

neuroscience of common sense.

, what I like about it too, is
it gets away from just the

pure, , pleasure hormones thing.

Dopamine, serotonin, , endorphins,
oxytocin, that we know we need all those.

However, they're not the whole picture.

We need, they need to be
dosed in certain ways.

And it seems like what you've told
us here with the dendrites and axons

to the norepiprofen to the pausing to
the, acetyl, acetylcholine gives us a

way of, as you say, being a bartender,
of being able to deliver those good

things in a way that's appropriate.

For the situation, the context, the
animal or the human that's in front

of us or oneself in this particular
moment, this is massively useful.

How are people, how can
people come on your courses?

Tell us about this.

How can they find you and how
can they sign up to learn?

Dr. Steven Peters: Sure.

they can go to my website,

info And there'll be, a schedule
of, of classes that I, I give.

I also, do a course called Equiscience.

That's sort of the horse
human relationship with, a

psychotherapist, Sarah Schlotty.

Oh yes,

Rupert Isaacson: she's very good.

Dr. Steven Peters: Yeah, and
people can find that at Equiscience.

Rupert Isaacson: com.


com, all one word, yeah.

Dr. Steven Peters: And you can be
really hopeful about this because People

told me when I first started to talk
about this that, that it was above and

too complicated for the lay person.

And what I found is
exactly what you told me.

People are hungry for this information.

And I, my schedule is so busy
that I'm traveling everywhere

giving these, these presentations.

So I think that indeed we are, we're
in the midst of a paradigm shift.

and, and a lot of these old rigid
programs will have to change just

because of the outcomes and what
you see, in the better results.

Rupert Isaacson: Are you, are you writing
a, like a neuroscience for dummies book?

Is there something that's specific to the
layman where this stuff, we can find this

stuff and assimilate it in an easy way?

Dr. Steven Peters: In my presentations,
that's pretty much what I try to do.

I haven't, I've thought
of rewriting a book.

but you know, people have gotten away
from, from reading, unfortunately,

you know, it's a fast paced world.

They want it on their phone.

They want it in, in, in sound bites.

And so I've had to find a different
media to get the message across

because I think I almost limit
myself by, by writing a book.


Rupert Isaacson: I think there's
something in that or, or, or

these days it gets more complex.

One has to do all of it, right?

You've got to write the book, you've
got to do the podcast, you've got

to do the website, you've got to do
the, the app, you've got to do that.

what, what I would be really interested
in looking at is, so we are, we are now,

for example, in Ireland with Horseboy.

and movement methods sort of now going
into the mainstream where we're getting

government funding to bring this stuff
in because they're just finding that

the outcomes are, good enough that
it's, it's, it's saving the money.

it means that, for example, six foot
four blokes with autism who act out

violently and need three minders, each
of which costs the government a hundred

thousand a year get reduced to one.

you know, and they see that number and
go, okay, well, we'll put, and as we

train more and more people, you know, we
do our little neuroscience bit, but I'm

always thinking that, but there's more,
there's more, there's more, it would

be very good if we could bring you in.

but it needs to go beyond that.

I'm thinking also the curatorium
for therapeutic writing in Germany.

, they're, they're very open.

and we should go.

Present this to as many of these
bodies as we can without trying to

sell them anything with the sort
of a basically take it or leave it.

This will make it better.

Don't take our word for it.

But if you feel like going for it,
here it is in whatever form, because I

think this is some of the most valuable
information I've I've heard in years.

and to the point where I always know
when something is really useful, when

I can draw a little diagram based on
what an expert is saying, that means

they're getting it across, right?

You're not just going, Oh, what
was that word that they said?

What was that thing?

Your clarity of delivery is unusual.

Which means it's helpful,
unusually helpful.

where do you want, where do you want it
to all go in the next five to 10 years?

You're looking at the equine industry.

You're looking at vets, but you're
also looking at mental health.

You yourself have autism.

you're looking at all these kids
who are coming into the system.

Where do you want, how do you
want this neuroscience to.

Get a

Dr. Steven Peters: simulator.

No, I don't want to sort of practicing
outside of my scope because I don't

think that that's just opinion and
not really based on the evidence

based information that I know well.

So, with humans, most of my, my background
was in the dementias and and, you

know, deteriorating brain process, etc.

So I don't have a clinical background.

In autism, other than just
being on the spectrum myself.

So that's the only, in, knowledge
base I have in terms of.

of therapies.

Rupert Isaacson: you've got to understand
how funny that sounds because basically

what you just said is I've got no, I've
got no clinical, knowledge of autism,

and neuroscience other than the fact
that I'm an autistic neuroscientist.

Dr. Steven Peters: It sounds ridiculous,
but you know, when you get up in front

of a panel and they say, how many books
have you written on autism, you know, is

though that were the, were the measure.

so I think I, I'm able to make the biggest
input, you know, I would like to see when

somebody rides a rodeo horse, for example.

That that horse can come
calmly into an arena and then.

No, in through the communication.

I just dial up my nervous system,
but I'm still feeling safe.

I'm still hunting for that dopamine.

I run my pattern.

I'm finished.

The writer gets off.

I look and chew.

Then I walk onto the
trailer and I go home.

That can happen.

You don't have to yank
the horse's mouth around.

You don't have to spur the horse.

In fact, most of the time that
horse is more worried about when

the hammer is going to fall.



than they are about concentrating
on what they need to do.

And so I think our abuse of horses, and
I call it abuse, has become normalized

just because we see it so often.

And I'd like us to have a different lens.

One that's more, gives
the horse a better deal.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and I'd say
that that brutalization of humans

was normalized for the same reason.

It was just...

One saw it every day, you know, the school
system I went through, we were beaten.

We just were.

things are getting better.

That's now illegal.

but the harshness behind it, the
impatience, the what the Pink Floyd

would call the dark sarcasm in
the classroom, all the stuff that

activates your amygdala anyway.

these things happen.

These things change only slowly
unless someone like a Dr.

Steve comes along and says, well,
actually, here's the neuroscience of it.


it's not a culture thing.

It's not, are you kind or not kind?

It's just, this is how the brain works.

If you do it like this,
it will happen like that.

If you do it like this,
it will happen like that.

so you say you don't want to be
outside of your area, but I think

that anyone who's listening to this
right now, let's say they're coming

from a therapeutic writing context,
will find everything that you said

massively helpful and take those tools.

and add them to their toolbox.

so I don't think you need to worry
about because it's not, we're not

talking about an academic world here.

it's more the world of the practitioners.

I think the world of the
practitioners, the people who want

to get the job done, want to get the

Dr. Steven Peters: job done.

Well, what I do love about my job is that.

You know, it's, it's
evidence based information.

So, you know, it's not my opinion.

So people could dismiss that.

Well, that's Steve Peter's opinion.

But if I say the heart pumps
blood and somebody goes, well,

that's just your opinion.

I can say, well, no,
actually, that's a fact.

And this is how it's supported.

And this is how, how we know
that indeed that is a fact.

And that's not my opinion.

And so, yeah, my knowledge of brain
functioning over 3 decades of working.

with, with brains, , does put me in
a place where I can say, no, that

this is, this is evidence based.

, and it's always a position of strength
because I try not to go into realms

where I'm relying on, on my opinion.

I'm, I'm really relying on, on

Rupert Isaacson: fact.


So we're approaching
the two hour mark here.

And I think what this is, what's
really good about this is that.

Let's say I was listening to this
and I and I was Making some notes.





Go there.


Let's get that.


Too much.

Not good.

Okay, so just enough for the beta.

That's good.

Then the pause and then the aesthetic,
, coline so that we can sleep on it and get

those neural pathways going in a good way.

This is really helpful.

What else do we really need to know as
a kind of a neuroscience bottom line?

About horse brain human brain.

You need us to go away with that.

We shouldn't Get off this chair

Dr. Steven Peters: without knowing
what I would tell your listeners for the

horse and the human is that your brain
is constantly rewiring and wiring itself.

And so if you looked at it as though
you're a neurological gardener.

And you have to create the
environment to grow the biggest

dendritic forest that you can grow.

And you only do that by understanding
the environment and understanding how to

create a fertile ground in which that can
occur for both the human and the horse.

And that may be different for each human.

They may need different nutrients.

They may be different attention, et
cetera, to produce that dendritic field.

But we're all capable
of wiring our brains.

our horse and us.

And so providing that and looking at
yourself as the neuronal gardener.

And if you are the

Rupert Isaacson: neuronal gardener and,
or forester, and you're creating this,

this forest in the horse, in yourself,
in your client, it sounds like the

creation of this dendritic forest or
garden comes down in many ways to play,

Dr. Steven Peters: or am I wrong?

That's a perfect environment because
then you're able to tolerate so

much more in a safe environment.


And, and the result of play is
huge dopamine hits and curiosity.

And, yeah, it's, it's a safe environment
and movement is often involved.

So that's a very creative way
of, of creating this, this new

dendritic force animals that aren't
safe enough to play that aren't

comfortable in their environments
that are isolated in isolation.

is the second biggest stressor for horses.

Restraint is one, isolation is another.

They need contact.

Nervous systems need other
nervous systems to thrive.

That's what, so

Rupert Isaacson: they're
much later, right?

Co regulation is that?

Dr. Steven Peters: Yeah.


But more than that, I mean, you're,
you're, you're oxytocin deprived

if you don't have interaction
in touch with other animals.

Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

So, so one of the things
which, . I often do when I'm going

around doing dressage clinics.

that's one of my other lives, right?

Is, I've learned now that when the
horse comes in to the arena snorting and

fire breathing dragon y and basically
they've just got off the trailer in this

new place and they're all freaked out.

what I've started to do now is say,
actually chaps, let's just pull

the saddle off and let him play.

Let's let him play.

If you feel that he can play
safely with another horse, let's

have him play with another horse.

if you brought another horse with you,
for example, and they know each other,

if not, let's interact with the horse
and we'll know when that horse is

ready to receive information from us.

But if we don't give him a bit of crazy
time and a bit of fun, and then a bit of

exploration time, frankly, they're just
not going to take in any information.

It's just not worth it.

And I took the, the, the, the leap of
saying this to people who were, you

know, proper, proper Grand Prix riders.

And it, it made a massive difference.

And what I realized was, you know, cause
I went to a lot of, horse seminars

and so on, I had a lot of people,
particularly from the Western USA saying.

Oh, well, you know, if you don't keep your
horses in herds in big pastures, you're

an arsehole and I was thinking yeah,
but Unfortunately, that's just shaming

people who have no option but to keep
their horses in suburban, Riding clubs or

boarding stables where they have no choice
because they're being run by somebody

else Who's doing it with the horses
in boxes and blah blah blah blah blah.

So they just go away feeling shit
with no solution to their problems.

So then I started thinking,
okay, well, what's the solution?

The solution is getting horses to play
together in herds at the very least.

So you open up the covered arena, do
some free jumping, have them mill around,

change the playground for them every
couple of minutes, let them enjoy it.

And we found that this really
worked well in those environments.

You had to integrate them.

Obviously say, you know, they were safe
with each other, but that it came so much

down, as you say, to social time and play,
but that one couldn't go and say to people

are you can't control your environment.

So therefore, and, and, and the
option of having a ranch in Montana

or Colorado is not there for you.

Therefore, you shouldn't
keep horses at all.

That just makes people sad
and depressed and, and doesn't

give them practical solutions.

But what's really nice is if, if,
if then they want to create this...

Social time and crazy time for their
horses and they go to the barn owner

and the barn owner says well No, I don't
want to do that if they can produce the

kind of neuroscience that you've just
come up with and say well Actually,

this makes it safer for everybody.

This makes it safer for your people
who are mucking out the boxes This

makes it safer for you the barn owner
because the horses have fewer accidents

because they freak out less and they
don't stand there kicking the walls

or get their feet hung up and Rafters,
because they're all freaked out and

rearing up in the box and all the stuff
that happens, , in those environments.

It, it seems to always come
down to the neuroscience.

if, so if you say you're a gardener
trying to, or a forester trying

to create the biggest dendritic
forest that you can, I love that.

In the most fertile soil that you can.

Okay, if the dendritic pathways are
coming through this exploration and

play, how are we creating that soil?

How are we creating the soil
for those dendrites to grow out

Dr. Steven Peters: of?

Well, in that condition that you
talked about a stall, a box stall,

even if it's made out of mahogany
is a sensory deprivation box.

And we know any mammal put in that type
of environment, especially a herd animal,

you're going to be pruning back dendrites.

That brain is going to weigh less.

In a brain that can interact with
other horses, you could say, well,

well, I can't do that because of, the
confines of a small environment.

I think in the future, because the
research is so robust in this area that

it's just not healthy psychologically
and emotionally to be isolating

horses and putting them in stalls.

You know, all of those, those, the
way that they cope with that with.

You know, wind sucking and cribbing,
et cetera, are the result of

they lower their cortisol level.

They're, they're not, , they don't have,
it's not that they don't have any purpose.

They have a good purpose and helping
animals stay self regulated emotionally.

But I think people are going to
learn to landscape a little better,

and they're going to find a track
system, maybe even one acre of land.

I've seen this in San Diego, small little
outcropping with a little hillside.

And then there's a track along the
outside of the The property where hay is

placed in certain areas and somebody's
put down some P gravel for their hooves.

Somebody else has created a little
water hole that they can congregate at.

And I would argue that getting
when people say, well, my horse

will get hurt with other horses.

I would argue that that physical
losing a little hide doesn't really

weigh well with the psychological
and emotional comfort that horses

get in their, in their interaction.

And in terms of brain growth, that
soil needs to have some sort of.

interaction, we all need
interaction with each other.

So we may have to be
creative and how we do that.

But just not addressing the
issue and putting them in

isolating them isn't an answer.

Rupert Isaacson: So, so, so prioritizing
it as a prioritizing that social

time and saying Okay, because we
need these dendrites, before we can

think about anything at all, we've
got to re jig our environment.

So, If we are indeed in a, in a, in
a, in a limited space, so the horses

are, or you've just the barn owner,
there you are, you've got a stable and

there are stalls, and that's just the
environment that you've either bought

or inherited or whatever, there it is.

Can we then say, all right,
what do we do to optimize this?

How can we give the horses the maximum
opportunity to go and socialize?

without it just feeling
like a prison yard, right?

so, so for example, if, if you put
in those tracks that you're talking

about and the horse goes back to the
box, is that bet, is that better than

if the horse doesn't get that at all?

Or is it that we should,
if possible, learn that

Dr. Steven Peters: that's
where they get that.

Oftentimes, if they learn where they
that's where they've gotten fed that

that's where they don't have to work,
they may gravitate back to that.

But we learned this lesson in in zoos.

When I was a child, we'd go to zoos and
then small cages, small boxes, they'd have

animals, they pace, they bite at things.

they never thrived.

And once zoos became enlightened and the
closer they could replicate a natural

habitat, natural environment for that
animal, then they hit on the, and so then

it became monorails that came over the zoo
and look down on animals in a big field.

And you may not have that much land.

But I think it behooves us to be
creative and understand the closer I

can replicate a natural environment,
the better my animals going to thrive.

Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

You know, I'm thinking, I mean,

Dr. Steven Peters: those mustangs.

Go ahead.

I was just going to say, you know,
sometimes we get egotistical that we

have to teach the horse everything,
you know, there are mustangs out in the

wild that aren't just standing still
saying, I hope some human comes along

and teaches me to trot and teaches
me how to find the waterhole, etc.

You know, they're probably filled with.

with dendrites because they have
that, that environment and you

know, they have good hoof health
and et cetera, et cetera, on and on.

So I'm not saying, you know, let
your horses all run free, but I am

saying that, that, , from a brain
standpoint and brain health and from

a wellness standpoint, I'm thinking
about how can I create that fertile

ground and that fertile ground being.

As close to a natural habitat as
I can get if they can forage, you

know, that's much better than highly
processed grains that just go right

through them, filling them full of
sugar and sticking them in a stall.

It's not good for a human or a horse.

Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, absolutely.

And one of the things which is
interesting in that the, the, the urban

environment of horse keeping, where
horses, of course, were in stores.

one forgot was that the horse was outside
working all day constantly moving,

moving, moving, moving, moving, often in
conjunction with a herd because they, they

were groups of them doing things together.

They might be being driven in a team.

They might be, working
in a cavalry regiment.

They might be this, they might
be that, but in general and all

sorts of human contact, constant,
constant, constant, constant.

And then going back into a store
after moving all day, just to

kind of chill is very different.

To standing in a box for 23 hours,
waiting for your owner, who's got a

job and a family to come and ride you
for one hour in the arena, get upset

that you can't concentrate and then put
you back in that isolation box again.

And, and.

Cavalry, schools, you know, which
again would always have the horses in

the boxes until they went on campaign.

And then of course, when they went
on campaign, they were in the field.

so I think what, what, what's
happened is we've lost.

the context of, of, of these things.

and we, I see it almost less as
a, as a problem of the way we keep

horses as the way in which we're
trying to make horses conform.

To a modern paradigm of human life
that horse human interaction wasn't

really ever created for And then how
but then I find it quite intriguing.

How do we find solutions to that problem?

For example group play
in the covered arena?

Yeah, but it's interesting I now do
this as a as a as a prerequisite for

any of my clients in the stable where
we're based out of in Germany, because

they are indeed in boxes, but they're
actually out in the fields in the day.

that's how it's done.

So I say to all my people, get
them playing together, playing

together, playing together.

And we set up, I set them up into
groups and anyone who won't do this.

I say, well, I can't really have you as a
client because I just know that I'm going

to be dealing with an unhappy horse that
as soon as you're ready to integrate your

horse into that herd for some playtime,
some crazy time, come back and talk to me.

I do understand that you have a job.

I do understand that you have a baby.

I do understand that you'll
have time constraints.

But as you say, let's replicate as
closely as we can to the original.

Dr. Steven Peters: I know
exactly what you're saying.

Martin Black and I, we do a colt
starting every year in October, and

we don't keep a horse in isolation.

Four horses are started together.

Yeah, and so that actually
creates the sense of safety.

There's movement together, et cetera.

And, and it more than pays off.

because you work with 1 and
then you get a pause because you

have to work with the others.

So the.

The pause is, is built into the whole
process, and yet you can use the herd and

all that serotonin and oxytocin in your
favor, and it truly makes a difference.


Rupert Isaacson: plus the visual learning.

I mean, they watch each other, right?

They learn from each other.

, so much of, , what's forgotten
with horses, as you know,

is, ... Where did, where did horse
domestication and training start?

Starts in Central Asia with who?

With tribes.

Well, what's a tribe.

A tribe is a group of people out there
living in tents, constantly interacting

as clans and extended families.

What are horses, herd animals, constantly
interacting in clans and, and, and you

put those two things together and you get.

Equestrian culture.

And then it's pretty functional.

because it's, it's obeying the
rules of the fact that we're both

heard animals really effectively.

and now suddenly with the cult of
the individual, we've broken that.

and we wonder why we're
running into some problems.

but when you come along and explain
it, particularly in the, in the,

even if we just bring the whole
thing back to dendrites, Okay.

And say, fewer dendrites, more
problems for you and your horse.

More dendrites.


Everything's going to go.

Which one do you want shit or good?

Then let's go for some dendrites.

You know, that's

Dr. Steven Peters: how
we use your flowers.


you know, Rupert, I think you and
I in conversation could probably

spend an entire day bouncing
these things back and forth.

So maybe you'll invite me
and we'll try this again.

I would love

Rupert Isaacson: to.

And if you want more than that,
what I'd like to do is I'm going to

throw this open to the listeners.




You're going to have questions for Dr.


Email them to me.

I'm going to ask Dr Steve to come back
on and we're going to answer those

questions because then those questions
are going to, and if you are coming from

a suburban horse environment where you
have limited space, please don't think

that you're not part of this conversation.

Ask Dr Steve for the, the solutions to
get those dendrites going in your horses.

Let's, let's get this conversation moving.

Dr. Steven Peters: Let's discuss it.

Let's be creative together.

Let's figure these things out.

So yeah, I'd invite your listeners.

Everybody's included.

The umbrella of brain functioning is huge.

It exceeds all disciplines
and all environments.

You know, they're, we're talking
about brains, so everybody's invited.

Rupert Isaacson: All right.

So listen, let's just go
through the resources again.

Tell us, the titles of your books so
that people will want, they'll want those.

what, what, what should they be ordering
from Amazon if they want to read yourself?

Dr. Steven Peters: Okay, you
can go to Amazon and you can

read evidence based horsemanship.

That's the book that martin black and
I wrote and we purposely, spent a lot

of time trying to make it available.

or make it accessible to
as many people as possible.

There's jargon in there,
but there's also a glossary.

It's not a huge academic tome.

It's about 100 pages, and there
are a lot of illustrations.

So evidence based horsemanship,
you can get that on Amazon.

you can come, you can go to
my website, horsebrainscience.


You can also look up.


com and look at the courses that, Sarah
Schulte and I are doing together and

that'll give you a pretty good start.

Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.

All right.

We're all going to go off and do that.

And then we're going to ask you
to come back on in a little while

and answer the questions that the
dendrites, in our brain are going to

come up with, having been stimulated.


thank you so, so much, Dr.

Steve, for coming

Dr. Steven Peters: on.

Oh, it's been a pleasure.

I really enjoyed, our discussion.

Rupert Isaacson: Massively, massively.

I'm going to bed.

I'm going to go take my, my pause
now and go, , bed down with, , see.


Dr. Steven Peters: Let the
acetylcholine do its work now.


The acetylcholine.

Have your glass of wine, relax,
and let your brain Now, , do

what it needs to do get a little

Rupert Isaacson: white matter going.

All right, I will I will see you
on the next one Thank you so much.

I'm very grateful.

Dr. Steven Peters: Be well.

Rupert Isaacson: thank you for joining us.

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