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Conversations around theology and the Bible. Pastor Cameron and Pastor Luke of Conduit Ministries share their reflections on theology and the teachings of Conduit Ministries.
Well, generally, we're in the middle of our sermon series on theology. We're just walking through our through our theological statement of faith. Our doctrine statement. Doctrine statement. Mhmm.
Luke:And you and I were talking about, you know, just the fact that, like, there's so much theology densely packed in here about what we believe and confess as Christians and as a church, and there's literally no way we could cover all of it on a Sunday No. Even, you know, with the sermons that we are gonna cover on it. So we wanted to set these conversations aside to kind of dialogue and kind of just talk about some of the things that we're either skipping over entirely or just skimming the surface of Yep. When it comes to theology. And so we're gonna go kind of article by article, kind of talk about what we think are the key some key things that we maybe didn't talk about.
Luke:So let's just go ahead and get right into it, and let's start with the nature of God.
Cameron:Yeah. You did this one. This was this is where you were Yes. You were landing this plane for us in worship. And when you talk about the nature of God, you're really talking about one very specific theological concept, and that's the concept of the trinity.
Cameron:Yeah. Which I don't know. Everyone's probably got their own opinion on this, but I think it's the greatest it's both the greatest treasure and the greatest mystery
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Of the Christian faith. Yep. The threeness and oneness of God. And there is a large section on YouTube of people talking about how to make conceptual sense of this. Yeah.
Cameron:And using different types of analogies and metaphors to describe it. Yeah. You've heard the bad ones.
Luke:Oh, see.
Cameron:And really, the reality is they're all bad.
Luke:They're all bad.
Cameron:They're all bad. You know, there's like the water metaphor.
Luke:Yep. Which I was informed by a congregate member that there is something called the oh, it's called the triple point at which water exists as a solid, liquid, and a vapor at the same time Mhmm. Concurrently.
Cameron:Okay. So Gotta believe it. But
Luke:Yeah. It's true. It has to be like extreme lack almost a vacuum Yes. To like Yeah. To and certain like, the right degree of temperature for that to happen.
Luke:But
Cameron:But kind of like the classic use of that metaphor would be like, oh, it's eight it's all H2O, but sometimes it's a vapor, and sometimes it's a solid, and sometimes it's a liquid. Right. It's three, but it's one. And like
Luke:Yeah. It makes God sound like Mrs. Doubtfire or something, you know, like running around putting on different costume. Yep. Different voice to pretend to be somebody else.
Cameron:Correct. Yeah. And then there's, I think I've heard the the metaphor a lot of, or I guess some kind of analogy of the egg. Mhmm. Yep.
Cameron:You know, there's the eggshell. There's the egg white. Yeah. There's the yolk. Yeah.
Luke:But if you have any single piece of that, is that an egg? Right.
Cameron:No. It's the remnants of a single part of an egg. Right. Right. I don't know that I've heard really any other ones widely used.
Luke:Like the clover. You know? The classic, like, clover with
Cameron:Venn diagram ish type of thing.
Luke:Yeah. That, you know, there's the I've always thought about, like, the stoplight. That was one that was I've heard before. Okay. But I think those are, like, the the main ones.
Luke:Oh, and the the the fidget spinner.
Cameron:That's one for, like, Gen Zs
Luke:Gen Zs.
Cameron:ADHD Yeah. Type of tendencies.
Luke:Yeah. No. I definitely saw a when fidget spinners were new, I was seeing a bunch of theological jokes about it being which kinda works. You know? You've got the three points.
Luke:God, it's one spinner. You spin it, and it's all the same.
Cameron:Looks like one.
Luke:Looks like one. You know?
Cameron:Okay. I get it, I guess. So, I don't know. Without like, I think you could tear down each one of those and explain why it isn't that way. Yes.
Cameron:But I don't know that that is even really the point in that I guess when I when I approach something like the Trinity, I am approaching that type of conversation with the reality that the reason that those that those things all break down is, really honestly, because of the intellectual constraints that it puts on the nature and mystery of God Himself. K. And it removes it removes kind of like the holiness of God and the otherness of God Mhmm. And places it in a category of the thing the thing that we can know and the thing that we can grasp and the thing that we can understand. That's not to say that God cannot be known
Luke:Right.
Cameron:Or cannot be understood. In fact, like, we believe that Jesus Christ came to make God known.
Luke:Right.
Cameron:We believe that the word of God makes God known.
Luke:Right. The fact that we know God exists is Him revealing Himself.
Cameron:Correct. Yeah. The spirit within us reveals God's truth and God's heart and God's nature. So God can be known, but that's different from analogies that make us own God Mhmm. Or own an understanding of God and our own intellect.
Cameron:Yeah. I think that's the danger in too much, like, knowledge of the trinity.
Luke:Yeah. Well, it's like and that's that's the that's the think why some people really rebel against the idea of the trinity because, well, God that doesn't make sense, and God has to make sense. You know? And, you know but the thing is is that like God if if we have a God who perfectly makes sense, one that we we can dissect perfectly Right. And we have complete control and understanding over Yep.
Luke:Then we have a God we created.
Cameron:Yep.
Luke:You know? Yep. I think, unfortunately, because the Trinity is both mysterious and, you know, a little bit hard to understand, I think it's something that's gotten neglected. Like, there's certain theological doctrines that, you know, the church during certain season emphasizes and and kinda neglect. And I think this is one of the ones that has, like, maybe been neglected a little bit even among people who, like, really confess the Trinity.
Cameron:It's yeah. And that's that's really interesting point. Talk talk more about that.
Luke:Well, I think what's happened is, like, we say, okay. You must believe in the Trinity. We know that good Christians believe in the Trinity. These are the things. Yeah.
Luke:It doesn't make any sense, and that's okay. And then we just kinda move on. And so we don't ever come in to any theological application to it or wrestle with it long enough to have a strong understanding of it. And what that's created, I think, is a kind of looseness around the Trinity. We're like, oh, well, what's such a big deal if a Christian doesn't believe in the Trinity?
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:Because, like, it doesn't make sense anyways, and it doesn't really matter. But really, historically, the belief in the Trinity has been the demarker as to whether or not you are a Christian or not. Yep. Whether or not you're a heretic heretic
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:Or you're a cult.
Cameron:Yep.
Luke:And there are several Christian well, there are several people, groups of people who I would consider a cult.
Cameron:Just say the Mormons.
Luke:The Mormons. The Mormons.
Cameron:And Jehovah Witnesses.
Luke:And there is a oneness Pentecostal. Oneness Pentecostalism, which is growing in the country. I would consider them cults. I wouldn't consider them Christians. Yep.
Luke:They would say they're just Christian denominations.
Cameron:Mhmm.
Luke:They're wrong. They're not Christian denominations. They're cults because they deny the Trinity.
Cameron:Yes.
Luke:And but because we've been so Lucy about, like, the importance of the Trinity, we don't know why that's such a big deal and why we can say why we can say with confidence that they're called to not just another denomination.
Cameron:What would you say in your preparation to preach the sermon, what would you say was like the richest or like the best thing that you encountered, experienced, wanted to communicate? And maybe what was like one of the more difficult aspects of like communicating a sermon like that or giving a sermon, I bet.
Luke:Yeah. I mean, like, the richest thing is that, like, that I really wanted to get across and was, like, very formative for me. I really kind of discovered this theological truth when I was in Bible college, and I was reading Delighting in the Trinity by Michael Michael Reeves. And his primary one of his primary conclusions about the Trinity is that the Trinity enables God to be love. Like, that's what I wanted people to hear is that, like, the Trinity is not just some sort of esoteric out there conception about God existing in three, and it kinda matters.
Luke:No. It, like, really matters. Mhmm. Because without it, God's not truly love. Because if we have a singular God and we say he's existed as love in eternity past, you can't exist as love without anybody to love.
Luke:Mhmm. And so then he has to love himself. But if he's a singular god, then that just makes him a true narcissist. Yep. But if he exists inside of community of the trinity, then he can love himself in perfect unity Yep.
Luke:And give and receive that. He didn't need to make creation to love us. Mhmm. He created out of that, like,
Cameron:love. Yes.
Luke:That's what I wanted people to hear. And, like, the part that I don't think I got to, like, articulate enough. Yeah. Was that we're invited into the community of God. Yeah.
Luke:Like, we're invited into that I didn't get to talk about that as much Mhmm. Just simply by time constraints. And also, it's, like, it's a whole like, it's a big idea to think about that.
Cameron:Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. I I remember learning about this concept of the Trinity as the mode by which God's love is expressed within God Himself.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:And even that is like
Luke:I
Cameron:gotta think about that for a second. I gotta I gotta wrap my head around it. But then, yeah, why and then but asking the question, why does that matter? Is because, well, it matters to us because we are invited to ex we are invited in to experience that love. Yeah.
Cameron:So I don't think it and, I mean, isn't that central to the Christian faith as a whole? What is what is the most important command? Is the is love. Right? And if we're saying that love is central to who God is in His nature, God is love.
Cameron:Right? First John four eight, then then that understanding of the trinity is is so foundational. People, I I I've got the question, well, where do we see the trinity in the Bible? Like you said, like I've said before, we don't see the word trinity.
Luke:No. The word's not there, which is one of the re one of the big, like, shots that people who don't believe in the Trinity take is they're like, well, the word Trinity is never there.
Cameron:Correct. Yeah. But the concept certainly is. And, like, I wanna give I wanna read an example for anyone who's out there listening or watching this or like, well, where would I even go to, like, develop a sense of how this looks in the scripture? Mhmm.
Cameron:This is just one example Right. Among many, many. But we're in Romans chapter eight, really like I mean, Romans chapter eight's like everyone's favorite chapter in Romans. It is. Right?
Cameron:And Paul says this. It's in chapter eight about halfway through, verse nine. He says, you, however, are not controlled. Now before I get any further, I want you to when you're listening and you're you're hearing this, I want you to hold your finger up when you hear Paul talk about a dip a different part of the godhead. Okay.
Cameron:Okay? Alright. Let's do this. K. You, however, are not controlled by the sinful nature but by the spirit.
Cameron:If the spirit of God lives in you, and if anyone does not have the spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in your body but if but if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, and yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead Yeah. K. We're lot we're lots of versions.
Cameron:Yeah. And if the spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his spirit. Through whose spirit? The spirit of God. Right?
Cameron:The Holy Spirit who lives in you. So Paul there is like
Luke:He is bouncing around.
Cameron:The spirit of God, the spirit of Christ, Jesus Christ, the spirit who raised him from like, there is an understanding there, or at least a communication, that the spirit of God and God, which typically is the father when it's listed. Yeah. God and Christ co creators in the act of redemption.
Luke:Mhmm. All involved.
Cameron:All involved. All a part of it. Right. And so this is just one example where someone would would read that and be like, well, it seems like he's talking about different people Yeah. But doing the same things.
Cameron:Yeah. And in a way, that is like how that is how we talk about
Luke:Yeah. The trinity. I think one of the things that gets a little bit confusing and people don't, maybe they have an understanding of the Trinity that's close, but not quite there. I think sometimes people drift into a place where not all persons of the Trinity are necessarily co equal. Right?
Luke:So, like
Cameron:You think people drift there?
Luke:I think people drift there. I think people unintentionally find themselves, like, thinking that God the father is big God. God the son, Jesus Christ is like, you know, he's like second tier. Uncle God. Uncle God.
Luke:And then, like, the Holy Spirit is, like, really weird uncle God. Yeah.
Cameron:You know? Accept child.
Luke:Yeah. You know? And what would you say to that? Like, how can you help how do you help move somebody from a place where they're seeing things like Jesus saying, well, I do the will of the Father and things where it says like the Holy Spirit's coming from God and was revealing Jesus? There seems like there's like they're lesser in some degrees.
Luke:What would you or
Cameron:just different? Like that, well, you hear people say all the time, well, the God of the Old Testament was mean and angry and That's a big one. Right. But the God of the New Testament in Jesus is gentle and is kind and is compassionate. And the Holy Spirit doesn't even come on the scene until Jesus sends him in Pentecost Right.
Cameron:Or asks the Father to send him in
Luke:He shows up in acts. Right. He he belongs in one book. Right. Book of Acts.
Cameron:I think in order to deal with that, though, that perceived incongruence, you really you have to ask yourself whether or not you trust the words of Jesus. Because over and over and over and over again I'm like, in my personal devotions right now, I'm reading the gospel of John. And over and over and over again, Jesus is so clear to the religious leaders in John's gospel. I and the father am one. I only do what the Father wills me to do.
Cameron:Like, I am essentially, I am here to represent the will and the love of the Father. Then you run further into the New Testament, Paul, the writer of Hebrews, whoever that is, where, like the writer of Hebrews, Jesus is the exact representation Yeah. Of his being. Yeah. God.
Cameron:Colossians chapter one and Colossians two. In Jesus Christ, the fullness of the deity lives in bodily form. Yeah. So we're not talking about God, like big God being separate from medium God in Jesus. What we're experiencing is the ways in which we both perceive and maybe experience or interact with God in personal levels.
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:But the idea that, yeah, that God the Father is the big God that is mean and angry. Yep. That Jesus is the nice part of God. Mhmm. And the spirit is the weird part of God, is not really an idea that you see in scripture.
Cameron:In fact, like, in, in Acts chapter one verses nine through 11, it's really actually a really good another good Trinitarian
Luke:Mhmm.
Cameron:Passage of scripture where Jesus, right before His ascension, is telling, I'm going back to the father. Actually, this was John chapter six John chapter 16. Not Mhmm. Acts chapter one. I am going back to Jesus is saying, I am going back to the father.
Cameron:Yep. And when I get to the father, I'm going to ask him to send to you the helper, Paraclete, right, the spirit who is the comforter and the counselor, who will reveal to you the truth of God's word. So it's not like, even Jesus isn't playing one part of God against Mhmm. One But they are they are coworking together in redemption history. Yeah.
Cameron:Do you have experience in, like, communicating that to people, or, like, what do you usually say?
Luke:I usually like because I think people get hung up with, like so they're co equal. I actually had somebody come up to me after the sermon when I preached on this two Sundays ago, and they asked me, they said, Is it right to think of the Trinity as like a family? I'm like, yeah. I actually think that's a helpful analogy. It's not perfect, you know, but like you wouldn't necessarily say that the father, the mother, and the son are like of any lesser value or importance.
Luke:Yeah. But they relate to each other differently. Yeah. Right? And so as far as if if you take that analogy to that point and don't go any farther, like, that's a pretty good analogy because you get this sense that the son willingly submits to the father even though he is fully God himself.
Luke:You see that in Philippians. It talks about being full of divinity. Right? Yep. And humbling himself to that of a servant.
Cameron:Yeah. Or you see in you see in, like, Matthew's gospel and the temptation that even Satan was fully aware that Jesus could do anything that he wanted in the moment. You can call down 10,000 legions of angels so that you don't hit your foot against a rock. Yeah. And Jesus was like, yeah.
Cameron:No. Like, the father's got a different plan.
Luke:Right. Or the temptation in the garden being an excellent example. Right. Christ wrestling with his own submission to the father, ultimately choosing submission even though he could have decided not to.
Cameron:Yes.
Luke:Right? And so you see inside I think that's what peep those are the passages that people see, and they see the spirit, and they see Jesus, and they're like that they all seem to be kind of submitting to one another in in this relationship. And I'm like, right. Because God's modeling mutual submission to each other inside of his own, like, self. Mhmm.
Luke:As wild as that is.
Cameron:Because that's love. That's love. Yeah.
Luke:And the theological word for that's perichoresis, is like this fancy word for the dance of the trinity. It's the way in which God decides to relate to Himself. It's just so wild. Like, the more I say that stuff, I'm just like, yeah, that bends my brain a little bit. Mhmm.
Luke:But he's choosing to be in submission to himself and to give and receive love in a way of submission and leadership and caring. And so, like, it's a model of relationship even for ourselves in a in a to a degree.
Cameron:I mean, not even to a degree. That is the model. Right? Yeah. Right.
Cameron:Yeah. So
Luke:I think that's where people kinda get stuck Yeah. When they encounter those passages and they think they begin to think that Jesus is like little God and Mhmm. The spirit is like ghost God or something.
Cameron:You know? Mhmm. Yeah. And then you have passages of scripture that don't help the clarity. Like No.
Cameron:God is spirit. Mhmm. Agreed. Yeah. Until God is flesh.
Luke:Yeah. Until God's flesh.
Cameron:Jesus. Right? Right. But but there, again, they're they're not saying that God is only spirit or that Jesus is the only God Right. As in flesh.
Cameron:Like, it is, again, describing an aspect of the Trinitarian nature of God. Mhmm. Freeness, oneness, and then your little diagram that you use. And we didn't talk about this before you preached it, but I was so glad you used that one, because that is, it's both classic and I think Right. The most accurate.
Luke:Yeah. It's historical for a reason. Yep. It's if the you wanna look it up for yourselves on on the Internet, you can Google the Trinity Shield.
Cameron:Yeah.
Luke:It's got a long history. Yep.
Cameron:So but yeah. Okay. Anything else you wanna say on that as the one who is who preached it the most?
Luke:I don't think so. I think that was kind of that was kind of it it. You know?
Cameron:Here's what I would say from a pastoral standpoint. Don't be afraid to embrace mystery. Yes. Yeah. Don't be afraid to embrace mystery.
Cameron:Don't get reject the idea that you should and that you can know everything about the eternal God. Yep. Including the basis of His nature. Yep. We we we could not hold that gory.
Cameron:Mm-mm. We could not hold the knowledge of that, in an accurate or good way and live. So
Luke:I agree. Alright.
Cameron:Thanks for, having this little conversation with us. We hope that, this series, both the these little short podcasts, but also the sermon series, just encourages you and stirs your faith. And really what we wanted to do was we to be able to say, hey, here we stand. Yep. This is our faith.
Cameron:But we also want to stir your faith and your, love for God and your love for His word. And maybe even like stir up a hunger for you to dive into additional resources. That book that, Pastor Luke shared, The Trinity.
Luke:Oh, the book. Yeah. The book I shared on the Trinity, Delighting in the Trinity. Excellent, excellent book. Excellent book.
Luke:And then we've made these available. You are a theologian. They are in the back on our bookshelf for a slightly discounted price. But this is like an overview of all the major points in basic theology that does a good job. I think it's approachable, but also really does some heavy lifting as well.
Luke:You're not gonna walk away. You're gonna learn something if you read it. Even if you're, like, think you're a seasoned theologian, you'll
Cameron:I I read it Mhmm. In some on my prep, and it it blessed me. So Yeah. Mhmm. We'll see you on the next one.
Cameron:See you.