057 | Emmett Strack | US & EU Trends Cross-pollination | Cross-Episode with Park Street Insider Podcast

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In episode 57, we've created a cross-episode with the Park Street University Insider Podcast.

I spoke to Emmett Strack, and we dived into the latest 2024 trends in the drinks industry.

We compared the US and Europe, talking about the cross-pollination of trends in the cocktail scene,

and in the overall bottom-up trade.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.

Time Stamps

0:00 Intro

2:16 Role of Convenience & Occasion

8:51 Ascension of Flavor

15:38 Pressurization

18:35 On-Trade In Europe

23:05 Euro Cocktail Trends

30:51 Gen Z & Drinking Occasion

36:42 Euro Drinking Categories

41:41 American Drinking Trends

46:14 Outro

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Emmett Strack

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Emmett Strack

Manager | Park Street University

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia drinks
podcast.

I'm your host Chris Mafia.
In episode 57, we've created a

cross episode with the Park
Street University Insider

podcast.
I spoke to Emmett Struck and we

dived into the latest 2024
trends in the drinks industry.

We compared US and Europe
talking about the cross

pollination of trends in the
cocktail scene and in the

overall bottom up trade.
I hope you will enjoy our chat.

One last thing, if you enjoy
this podcast, you will also like

the Mafia Drinks Guides.
You can subscribe free or paid

on mafiadrinks.com.
This is Emmett Strack with the

Park Street Insider Podcast and
we are back today with a very

special episode.
I am here with my good friend

Chris Mafia.
Chris Mafia is from the Mafia

Drinks Podcast.
Chris, how are you doing today?

I'm doing fine, thank you.
Great to be here and mate.

Great to have you and great for
you to have me on the podcast

because it's a nice cross
episodes.

Absolutely, Yeah.
Chris is out in Prague today and

I am in Philadelphia.
We are going to be having a

conversation today on 2024
industry trends, some things

that Chris and I are seeing
right now in the market and how

brands can potentially react to
these things that it would be

good for them to be aware of.
Chris is going to represent an

EU perspective.
He spent a lot of time working

and activating in the US as
well.

And I will be the voice of the
US.

So Chris, do you want to give
the people a little bit of

context on your podcast and what
the Mafia Drink Podcast does?

Fantastic.
I'm Chris Maffeo.

I'm the founder of Mafia Drinks
and the related podcast, the

Mafia Drinks Podcast.
I'm the host.

I'm a drinks advisor.
I come from a corporate

background back in the days and
now I'm I've been 4 1/2 years on

my own on my solo journey.
I cover Europe mainly but also

the US and I advise brands on
how to commercialize and and

build from the bottom up as I
like to call it.

So I'm a big advocate of taking
the strategy down to execution

and really understanding how to
move the needle and how to go

from 1 bottle to 1 case to 1
pallet.

Let's transition and just jump
into it a little bit here.

I think the first trend we want
to talk about for 2024 is

especially in the US, we're
seeing a lot of shifting

shopping behaviors and
priorities change.

And one of the most important
factors for that is definitely

convenience, right?
Convenience is something for

consumers.
I think across the board.

That's just becoming
increasingly important.

And this is both filtering down
in terms of halves of purchase

and packaging formats.
And what I mean by that is in

terms of packaging formats,
people want canned option.

This is something we all know.
They want things that are easy

to grab, easy to enjoy and
ready.

The RTD segment has boomed in
the US and I'm sure Chris can

speak to it that it's moving in
parity in Europe as well.

But they also want frictionless
pads to purchasing, right?

So they want their favorite
products to be available in

channels and easily available to
them.

And that is partly due to online
purchasing.

They want something that's built
in and integrated and 44% of

people, according to a Nielsen
study actually say that a

convenient location is the most
important factor to them when

they're choosing an in store
location off premise to to buy

products.
So it speaks to the importance

of things being available to
them.

And I think something we're also
seeing is that the moment of

purchase and the moment of
consumption is shrinking.

There are a lot of outlets
reporting on that these days is

that time between purchase and
consumption is is getting less

and less just as it relates to
the RTD segment as well, right?

Like RTD brands is something
Chris and I were talking about

before we got on recording here.
But RTD brands, I think there's

this time old adage that they
are built off premise.

That's something that actually
Merrily Kick told me when she

was on the Park Street inside a
podcast representing Buzz Balls

a couple months ago.
But they're also increasingly

being seen as an acceptable
category to consume as well.

So it's something that
convenience is starting to shape

the way we drink and the way we
view occasions, as well as that

kind of track with what you're
saying, Chris.

Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, like the, I think like

when it comes to RTD
specifically, I think it's still

very much like when, when we
talk about Europe, I think

there's always this, let's say,
a clarification to be done

between, for example, UK, which
is very being Anglo-Saxon.

Like it's much closer to the US
in terms of consumption

occasions, I feel versus
continental Europe, which is a

little bit more traditional in
that sense.

But when it comes to
convenience, I think it's

something that goes across the
board.

And it's a trend that I'm seeing
and working more and more with

US brands for myself is also
that I also had to change my

mind in, in the importance of
off trade when building brands

because I've been known as the
on trade guy for forever in the

dreams of world and in my
previous companies.

But I think there's a more and
more interaction now between on

and off premise.
And what I feel is that like

I've, I've changed my, let's
say, the nomenclature of what

I'm using, for example, on and
off premise.

And I'll call it bottom up
versus top down trade because

the bottom up trade is where you
can actually engage in

conversation, in storytelling,
where consumers want to have a

conversation about the brand,
whether through a bartender,

through a cleric, through a wine
shop, a bottle shop owner versus

the top down trade where you
scale the brand.

So we're basically like
supermarkets, modern trade, all

these big stores where actually
you drive volume, but you don't

drive much conversation with
consumers.

And coming from the pandemic, I
feel that people got so used to

drink also at home that before
they used to be like on premise

brands and off premise brands
kind of thing.

Like I drink certain brands when
I go out in some cool cocktail

bars and then I drink other
brands when I'm staying at home

with which is a bit more like
mainstream brands.

But now you also like when it
comes to cool and craft brands,

you want to build them in both
channels because people they not

necessarily want to go out all
the time.

And then if you got consumers on
the liquid on lips, as they they

say in the industry in a bar,
then they may look for it in the

surroundings of a bottle shop
and they may want to bring it

home.
And then next Saturday when I'm

having a host host, I'm hosting
a party at home and I'm not

going out.
I want to have a similar type of

experience and I want to drive
those brands.

So that goes back to what you
were saying about canned as well

that sometimes you may do the
journey the other way around.

So you may have, you may start
from a can in an off premise

store and drink it at home and
then you continue out and you

will look for those kind of
brands.

And especially depending on
occasion, I remember for

example, when I was working for
Peroni, when I was building

Peroni across Europe, we
launched cans and and they had

been seen in specifically in
Europe as a like like evil, like

cans are mainstream.
They are 50 CL.

They are like this huge cans and
they had they don't drive

premium.
But then for example, in Norway

and Scandinavia, specifically
when I was working, it was very

interesting because we launched
it because we identified that

there was this kind of occasion
where people were going out on a

boat trip and they wanted to
have a beer with them and they

couldn't drink, they couldn't
bring bottles, glass bottles and

so on.
So that was a perfect, it was

like a as Lee can 33 CL there is
leek and premium and consumers

were bringing that on that
occasion because it was either

like a picnic or going out on a
boat trip.

They wanted to have something
specific.

So it also goes back to the
occasion on on the pack that is

the right for that occasion.
Yeah.

And I, I think a big part of
this is just meeting consumers

where they are, right?
Like I, there's no doubt that

being able to have your product
placed on a menu in a bar

delivers an educational
opportunity that is definitely

not there in the off premise.
So that's really important.

But from a channel strategy
perspective, if consumers want

things readily available to them
to meet certain occasions, I I

think consumers value a
diversity of occasion right now.

So they're going to parties,
they're going to music venues

and, and you need to think about
these things as you develop a

well-rounded channel strategy.
So yes, that is definitely

really important.
Another thing we wanted to flag

was the importance of flavor to
the modern consumer.

This is something that's been
developing for a long time now.

You see it across categories.
You see it within gin.

Gin has been a really exciting
place to track over the last few

years because, you know, you see
the shift from classical styles

of gin, you see more botanical
influence.

You see more like fruit flavors
and varieties being put in.

And it's a really, really cool
place to be.

But, you know, there was a
recent study by Erica Ducey of

The Business of Drinks and
Rodger Brooks of Research and

Marketing strategies.
It was fond of millennial and

Gen.
Z purchase behavior and what

they found was that flavor as
was actually one of the most

consistently desired attributes
across both segments,

millennials and Gen.
Gen.

Z, to the point where it was
actually a factor that was

weighed more heavily than health
or eco friendliness.

And you know, we me as, as
someone who's representing Gen.

Z, you know, grew up in a, in a
world where there were unlimited

options flavor wise to all of
us.

So it's almost like consumers
are trained these days to have a

plethora of flavor options
available to them.

And this is sheltering down to
how these types of consumers are

are interacting with the world.
So having innovation from a

flavor standpoint is almost
crucial these days in terms of

how you're shaping your strategy
a little bit.

Absolutely, absolutely.
I mean I see it also when it

comes when I go to bars and I
talk to bartenders, I always ask

how are people choosing what to
drink now?

And there's always does the
category people and the the

flavor taste profile kind of
people now, because some people

say like, I'm a whiskey drinker,
I'm a rum drinker, I'm a gin

drinker, I'm a gin and tonic
drinker.

Some people are specific on a
cocktail kind of thing.

I'm a Negroni drinker.
And then some other people may

take it from a flavor they don't
know, especially those that

don't know what to have.
I because I like to sit at the

bar and observe like how people
order know.

And they say like, oh, I don't
know what to have.

And OK, what you, what would you
like?

You like something sweet?
Do you like something sour?

Would you like something bitter?
And that is actually the entry

very often is like, OK, I'll
make something up for you.

And this is very important when,
especially when with more and

more brands struggling within a
certain category that I've seen

zillions decks, the companies
that have been working and and

there's always like recruits
from outside the category.

The grass is always gleaner.
Sorry, is, is always greener now

on the other side.
And in the end it's also like,

OK, but how are you going to do
that?

And you do, you can do it
through the taste profile and

the flavor because it could be
ABV.

We've seen that like you
mentioned on health and like

less consumption on the low and
low on, on the raw materials.

What are you actually using?
Is it grain?

Is it fruits this delayed and so
on.

But then also like from a flavor
perspective, you know, like

sweet, bitter, sour or even like
a smokiness and so on.

And you can transition, you
know, always use example if you

like, like for example, you can
transition from tequila to

mezcal, which is still agave,
but then of course mescal is

smoky.
But then maybe you can

transition a Scotch drinker,
like an eyelid Scotch drinker

that likes peated whiskey, which
is also smoky.

And you can actually introduce
them to the agave category

through mezcal rather than
through tequila because you use

mock as the vehicle or smokiness
as the vehicle to recruit people

in or I don't know, maturation
the barrel.

So I always have like, I have a
friend of mine that is a ram

drinker.
He's one of those guys that is

like, I'm a ram drinker.
I don't drink whiskey.

And I took him to the whiskey
festival here in Prague.

And the way I introduced him to
I, I used the whiskey that was

aged in ex ram casks.
And I said, try this one.

And then it was smooth as a
transition for him to enter

whiskey.
And then he said, Oh, I should

like, I don't mind whiskey.
But then when we were going

further from the ram cast like
maturation, then he was getting

more into a kid.
I actually this is a little bit

too much for me.
I like that kind of like sweet

notes that rum is bringing in.
So I think it's also very

important, again, like as we
always discuss education because

some people you don't know what
you don't know.

Sometimes you may say I don't
like whiskey or I don't like

gin, but it's what is it that
you don't like, you know?

Yeah, I think you make a great
point about how it transcends

categories, right flavor.
It allows you to access

different categories.
If you know you like a certain

profile, a good bartender, when
you sit down at the bar, a good

bartender will be like, how are
you feeling right now?

Like what do you want?
What is it like a bitter profile

you're going for?
And then they will pair it to

that specific feeling that
you're having.

So it's it is like a factor
that's almost, with the amount

of innovation happening in the
industry right now, you're able

to access these similar profiles
from different categories, which

is a really cool thing.
Yeah, no, absolutely.

And I mean, I remember, for
example, like when I didn't like

Gene for a long time, but then I
realized that actually what I

didn't like was the citrus
element because I was, I was

always getting the gin and tonic
with a slice of lemon and, and

an Indian tonic water.
And I didn't like the element of

the Indian tonic water and the
lemon.

But then with the trend of like
all this premium tonics that

came in, I started Mediterranean
tonics and so on.

And then gin, they were
different and they were having a

different serves like with
cucumber or Rosemary or thyme or

then all of a sudden I said,
well, actually I like gin and

Sonic, but it was like that
citrusy element that I didn't

like.
So it was the sourness that I

didn't like, not the gin, but I
just assumed it was the gin.

So and I'm I bet is exactly the
same with whiskey with rum with

especially because many people
they may have a bad experience

once like they didn't like it or
they had a bit too much of it

and they all saw that they just
banned it from their, you know,

like a set of choices.
But then in the end is like, OK,

try from a different
perspective, different angles,

and then you can recruit a lot
of people like that all.

Right.
I, I know way too many people

who had a bad night with Jose
Cuervo at one point and they're

willing to get rid of tequila as
a category.

And I'm like, well, you're,
you're missing the boat a little

bit here.
Exactly.

No, but that's the that's a
typical that's a typical

situation which is like that
opens they all Pandora box of

the premiumization and trainings
and education and and all those

nice things that we always talk
about.

Premiumization is, is another
interesting subject because like

I, I think obviously it was one
of the most gripping trends in

the industry over the last three
years or or so.

And then in the last year or so
we've seen it moderate a little

bit in 2023.
So it's a big question on

everyone's lips is, is where
will premiumization go from

here?
Nielsen actually put out a

really interesting study at the
end of this past year where

basically they took a set of
survey members and they gave

them a fixed amount of money.
And they said, given this fixed

amount of money, how would you
spend this at a bar on premise?

So would you spend all of that
money on five value drinks?

Would you spend it all on one
super premium luxury drink?

And what the survey found was
that 31% actually said that they

would spend it on the Super
premium luxury drink as opposed

to five value drinks.
But the most significant result

from this was that 39% said they
would spend it on 2 high quality

premium drinks.
So when people go out, they are

willing to sacrifice volume for
quality, I think.

So it's definitely still a
factor and still something that

brand owners should probably be
targeting right now.

And I think this is really it.
It's really important.

I didn't know.
I didn't know this study, but

you know, it's something that
I'm always pushing.

For example, I'm always using
this kind of like 3 elements

when I do a selling story for a
brand to selling on, on and off

premise.
I think about it that way

myself.
No, it's like, OK, I don't want

to have the cheap offer.
I don't want to have the very

expensive one.
I want to go with something in

between where I know that I'm
getting the bang for box kind of

experience because I don't need
that super.

Especially like people that are
not trained from a palate point

of view, they will not get it
anyway.

So there's no point in overdoing
it and over stretching yourself

and your wallet on a super
premium offering.

Especially depends on who you
are.

I always give this example.
It depends who comes to my place

for dinner and I'm not going to
open the same bottles for

different kind of people.
Like some people I know that

they don't understand anything
about whiskies or rum and then I

may introduce them with
something more appropriate to

them and to their budget.
And then with some other people

that I know they, I know that
they are whiskey drinkers, then

I will treat them with something
more specific.

But of course, if if I'm having
like 15 people over, I'm not

going to open the 26 year olds
whiskey bottle, single molds

like that, that will finish that
night just with guys drinking it

and and then finishing the
bottle.

Because it depends again, on the
occasion, on who you're with,

Are you celebrating something?
Are you having just an easy

night out and so on.
So that middle ground plays a

huge role into driving premium
at scale.

Yeah, it's a great point.
It's a great point.

So we've talked about like
consumer purchasing behavior and

what's the trend that are
motivating that a little bit.

We talked about how flavor is
transcending drink categories at

this point.
Now I think we want to get a

little bit into on premise
trends and speak to what we're

seeing in the US and Europe.
There was a recent Nielsen

report that said that consumers,
I think in 2024 and beyond will

be actually making a conscious
decision to drink locally and

visit these establishments in
the US.

As of I believe it was October
2023, on premise total on

premise drinking outlets were up
3.1% driven by neighborhood bars

and sports bars.
So it it's definitely something

that the consumers are still
investing in and they do want to

go out and have these
experiences.

I think we're in a very
experienced, driven culture

right now.
But Chris, just really quickly,

what's your take on the on
premise scene in Europe?

What are we seeing over there?
I I think overall, I mean, there

is Montre.
This has struggled though,

obviously, like as everywhere in
the world.

I, I see that the more average
bars are struggling and probably

even closing down.
Many are even closing down, but

the more premium ones.
And and by premium, I don't mean

like expensive, I mean like
people that deliver a premium

experience on something.
It could be like best burgers in

town kind of thing.
I that that's what I mean by

premium.
No.

So you go there because it's the
best pizza is the best burgers

is the best sushi is the best
cocktails.

And then you see those outlets
are as really rising because

people want to go.
I mean, also with inflation,

things are getting more
expensive.

So I want to have an experience
when I go out and the normal

average experience doesn't give
me anything.

And then I may actually stay
home and order something, take

away and eat it at home.
But then when it comes to I want

to have a great cocktail and
maybe I go out and I want to

have one single cocktail that
night, but I still want to go

out and have and have that.
And, and the same thing happens

with other with other
categories.

So I I think it's very
interesting.

And also like it brings back to
the previous point that we were

discussing about the importance
of building on and off premise

presents for brands in the
neighborhoods, like when you're

always say when your home serve
first because that's where you

actually can build This sense of
I used to go to like local

bigness.
You're perceived bigger than you

are because you are in the five
places that are relevant for the

brand, in the five bottle shops
that are relevant for your

brand.
Yeah.

And then people in the
neighborhood will say, OK, this

tequila or this whiskey is
everywhere is huge, but you are

in 30 places all around the
city, but you are in 15 in that

neighborhood.
And then all of a sudden it

feels like wherever I go, I find
it.

And then it becomes part of my
repertoire.

Yeah.
And that's what I mean, that's

what distributors want to see
from brands as well.

They want to see you going deep
and not wide.

They want to see those reorder
rates.

They want to see consistency of
your reach in a certain area.

As a put.
It's, you know, it's, we always

say in the US it's better to be
in one state but own that state

rather than be in 45 states but
only selling 4000 to 5000 cases.

One state with a more
substantial volume is far, far

in a way, the better strategy.
So I I could not agree more.

Absolutely.
And I, and I think to wrap that

up, like it's also that the fact
that you also build credibility

of your brand because if you're
coming from, I don't know, Texas

or Florida or wherever you're
coming from, like that, you, you

need to show that you won in
your home surf.

Because otherwise you always
give the example.

If it's like a gene from Rome
and I'm from Rome and I've never

heard of that gene.
And when I called my friends

back back home in Rome, like
nobody has ever heard it.

You can be big in Germany, but
it's a little bit of a gimmick

because then it's like, yeah,
but people back home, they never

heard about your brand.
So build that relevance with

your kind of like friends and
family and the inner circle of

the city and then you move out
to the next, to the next level.

And that comes from on trade
perspective and from bars

perspective.
Yeah, absolutely.

And yeah, building, building
that relationship in the on

trade is one of the most
meaningful ways to do this.

From a cocktail perspective.
We have seen kind of a a shift

in in the US in recent years
with the popularity of certain

drinks.
So it's recap in 2023 a little

bit.
The espresso martini had a huge

year and it was something that
entered the top ten in terms of

the most popular cocktails in
the US on premise.

But we're also seeing like
applications with coffee in

general be a little bit more
ubiquitous and take the form

outside of espresso martinis.
That's just a a really popular

base as a base ingredient.
And it also offers a little bit

of a reliability point for
consumers.

There's like a functional
caffeine hit that happens there

that I think people are really
interested in as as they edge

towards more functional plate
flavor profiles.

Chris, earlier you mentioned
Negroni as something that people

are experimenting with.
And I think the gronies offer a

really interesting platform for
flexibility as a cocktail.

You can use seven different
bases.

There are lots of variations
that can come from it that

actually have made it also one
of the most successful cocktails

in the US And I think that this
speaks to it potentially being a

big year for gin in the US on
premise.

On the whole, it's definitely
one of the categories that's

benefiting from greater skew
innovation with kind of flavor

and botanical applications.
But as of Midsummer 2023, a

collection of venues in the US
reported a 44% increase of their

order rate year over year for
the Negroni.

And it's just something that's
so flexible.

But any cocktail trends you
would like to bring up for

what's popular in Europe right
now or yeah.

I mean, like, as you rightfully
said, I mean like the Negroni is

a, is a typical one that like, I
mean, being Italian, it's one of

my favorite.
And I remember the days where I

was living in Stockholm in
Sweden and my friend that

introduced me to the Negroni
there.

We used to have it on Americano
or Negroni depending how, what

the intake we wanted to have
like with soda rather than gin.

And, and I remember when many
times when I was, I asked for an

Americana, I got a copy because
the level of ignorance in the

sense of like not knowing was
huge at that time.

And now everybody talks about
Negroni like it has always been

there.
But I remember the days 15 years

ago when nobody knew what
Negroni was and people were

scared of the Negroni like
because it was a one of these

spirit forward cocktail and so
on.

So it's very interesting because
that I think it brings back to

the relevance of the different
categories because with the

raise of all the amaros and all
the bitters and the vermouth

that has been happening that has
driven because everybody we're

talking about the Negroni, all
of a sudden it wasn't any more

like a Campari realm anymore.
It was like the vermouth brands,

we're talking about it, the
bitter brand, we're talking

about it, the gin brands with
the proliferation of gene all

across Europe, especially, they
were talking about it's all of a

sudden like if everybody talks
about it, then it becomes a

thing, you know.
And then I think another element

that is interesting for me is
that the element of like cuisine

and how does, because this the
trend that is happening is also

like, I mean, USI remember when
I was there, you've got

cocktails everywhere with every
like restaurant.

No, every restaurant has got a
cocktail bar basically, or you

know, a cocktail list.
It's very different in Europe.

I mean, like in London maybe you
would find it, but in Europe you

wouldn't find it.
You know, you would find only

the basic stuff like a spritz.
And I mean, if you're in Italy,

they would make it an Agaroni,
but you know, nobody would make

an odd fashion in a, in an
Italian restaurant kind of

thing.
So I think there is an element

of these cuisines that are
trending and they bring their

cocktails with them.
So if you take like Latin

American, like Peruvian with the
pisco sour and all the Nobu and

all the fusion cuisine like
Japanese, Peruvian, Japanese,

Brazilian, you know, and a
snack, they bring certain

cocktails with them.
Italian cuisine of course, like

trending almost everywhere and
with the Negroni and the spirits

and everything, when it comes to
Mexican cuisine that is trending

everywhere, I mean like in the
US you've always had it

basically.
But in Europe it's quite a new

thing to have like quality, top
quality Mexican restaurant that

they used to be just some basic
chains.

Now you go and you spend €200 on
a super premium dinner in a

Mexican restaurant and that
comes with a nice range of agave

spirits and they will push the
margaritas in it, which has

never been, you know, Margarita
hasn't really been a thing in

Europe prior to that.
Like it was like something you

would get on a summer beach
resort.

And it's very interesting how
all this trend cross pollinate

each other where it comes from
food or where I mean, you

mentioned espresso martinis also
the Renaissance of coffee, all

this craft coffees that came out
there is all of a sudden a

different kind of attention to
certain element to the espresso,

to the beans and everything.
And that drives something about

the martini.
And there is this, this new

coming back of the old cocktails
that all of a sudden we're

forgotten.
And now they are.

They're back.
Yeah, I I think you're

absolutely right.
And I think Dick speaks to

something that we've been
dancing around for a lot of this

conversation, but haven't
actually hit on yet, which is

that consumers are more
increasingly willing to explore.

And they really want to have a,
a sense of, of, of discovery

with a lot of these things.
Like they want to be trying new

things.
And not only that, but they're

drinking across categories.
Like it's much more likely for

someone these days to sit down
in a bar, start with a cocktail,

move on to a craft beer or even
drink between spirits categories

in one sitting.
So it's something that's really

helping all of these fringe
categories.

I'm I'm sure in Europe too with
gave spirits in the Margarita as

something that might have been
on the periphery, but now it's

like more acceptable for a
consumer to sit down and enjoy

that on any occasion almost they
need less of an excuse.

While there are drinks for sure
that lend themselves to certain

food choices or certain
occasions, this sense of

exploration is definitely
driving an interest in a

multiplicity of those cultures
and occasions.

Absolutely.
And I think the let's say that

the foot in the door or the
excuse, you know, can facilitate

that to bring it at scale
because you exploration can be

just like relegated to certain
type of people.

But then when you give them the
ex the excuse, so to say.

I remember like going out for
dinner with my wife, one of our

favorite places.
You're in Prague and like they

have they're famous for the
jalapeno Margarita there and the

the weights are up for deep
because we were having some

tacos as a starter.
And then there was a nice bridge

for my wife to say, OK, like
I'll try that.

And then all of a sudden like
she had a couple and then she

said, I didn't know I like
Margarita because she never

thought about it like in in that
sense.

But you know, if you build the
bridge is a little bit like you

having fish and you want to have
white wine, like if you build

that kind of combination or a
red wine with a steak, then you

have that.
It's you feel it's almost

mandatory for that type of food
to enjoy that.

I'm having a Peruvian influenced
meal and I need to have a Piscos

hour as an aperitif because
that's traditional and otherwise

people get offended kind of
thing.

And then all of a sudden it's
like, oh, actually I like this,

this taste profile and I would
repeat it.

Yeah, yeah.
And I think this is definitely

more true for some demographics
as opposed to others.

When you came to bar com at
Berlin last year, you have a

really great talk on Gen.
Z and the importance of kind of

winning these demographic over
early on in the life cycle.

And I think Gen.
Z is someone or is it is a group

of people who definitely are
more flexible with their

associations with these things.
They don't sit down and have a

steak and immediately think red
wine.

The amount of variety of drinks
that they've had available to

them their whole lives makes
them a little bit more inclined

to branch out a little bit.
And Gen.

Z is also a demographic that's
changing the dynamic of the on

premise a little bit too.
So we talked about how the

biggest influences over the last
couple years have been

convenience and at home, right?
But study was done and Gen.

Z actually their Gen.
Z preferred place to drinks.

The spirits category is an on
premise occasion that's even

beating out places like bringing
spirits to a party or having it

for dinner or as a treat.
So this is like a segment that

really likes to pair imbibing
with occasion.

And so I think like with an eye
towards brand building, that's

something that brands should be
really aware of taking advantage

of the on premise.
And I think that this is

something that you could
definitely speak to really well,

Chris.
But education of Gen.

Z consumers, while I think it
needs it does happen a lot in

the on premise, it need to start
happening before they get to the

bar because we know that a lot
of these consumers come to the

bar already knowing what they
want to try.

So engaging them on social
media, getting them to your

brand's website or the bars
website where your brand is

placed is a really important
thing.

Just in terms of driving that
their motivation is that, is

that something that kind of
tracks with what you see?

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
And I also think that there is

an element of what I see and
I'll I'm always pushing as a

narrative that, you know, like
to build the category before

building the brand now, because
if you build education, like if

you do a training, a brand
training.

Explain you may have a gene
brand or a tequila brand, but

speak about the gene category,
speak about botanical, speak

about what am I supposed to
taste in the gene category as

such?
And then tell me the role of

your brand within that.
And the same with agave spirits.

Is it like, is it Smokey?
Is how Smokey it is?

Like what's the level of the
like the agave?

What's the retention of the
water whatever in the in the

agave plant based on species and
tell me like what, what's in it

for me rather than what's in it
for you?

Because very often, and this is
what speaks a lot to the

especially the Gen.
Z as a generation now, because

it's like I, I don't care your
narrative, like I want to know

what's in it for me.
What the how does that affect?

How does that water retention
affect the flavor?

I don't care about your 200
years, generations of distilling

if it doesn't bring anything to
me.

Like I want to know what am I
supposed to taste these

botanicals?
You're talking to me about these

35 botanicals, but which one is
the main one?

Which one is the one that gives
this flavor?

How can I explain that?
And the more you can educate

about the category and you give
free choices, then the more

people will actually be loyal to
you because you are the one, You

are the brand that facilitated
that knowledge.

And you explain to them, OK, now
I understand the whiskey world.

Now I understand the Scotch
whiskey and understand American

whiskey because, yeah, this
particular brand, I was there

and they didn't talk just about
them.

They explained it to me with
other competitors that didn't

talk badly about the competitors
that just explained.

They didn't say they were the
best one.

They explain why they were
different and why they went

right for me for that occasion.
And I think that's very

important for brands to to
understand, like focus on one

occasion and stick to it rather
than trying to grasp every

opportunity and try to say that
you're the best for whatever

occasion because you're not.
No.

You think you cannot be?
Yeah, it makes so much sense to

me.
If you build that kind of

meaningful connection, you will
generate that loyalty down the

road and they'll keep coming
back to you as a source of

education.
And just because they've formed

that bond from a flavor
perspective or from like a

familiarity perspective, they'll
be more likely to come back to

you.
That makes a lot of.

Sense and it's almost like like
there's some guys that I follow

that I love like they're
Americans as well and they call

it like the non selling live.
It's almost like that at least

that resonates very much with me
and my style.

Like I don't like to sell for
like as a as a mainstream kind

of selling.
And people don't seem sold to

you either.
Like they don't like to feel

like they're being targeted in
that way.

Exactly.
And that happens to everyone.

No, And then I educate and the
information is out there and

whenever you will need it,
you'll come to me.

And I see it myself.
For example, like people say

I've been listening to your
podcast for one another one

year, one year now, like it's
one year old now.

And then they that's the moment
where they decided to reach out

to me and ask me for being their
advisor.

But it's sometimes it takes 12
months or six months or nine

months.
And they don't rush it into

trying to monetize everything as
soon as possible, like trying to

sell the bottle after, after
that training, like just leave

it there and just focus on
building distribution.

And then people will talk about
you and especially Generation Z,

they would think about it and
they would, they would digest

that information and then they
would make it theirs.

Now it's such a good point about
building organic connections

with consumers as opposed to
like like you said, monetizing

every moment.
It just does not need to be done

that way.
So that's that is a really

valuable point.
Chris, let's talk about trending

categories in Europe a little
bit.

So that is, that's something
that we are monitoring and we'll

want to delve into the
differences between the US and

the EU in terms of what's
trending there.

So why don't you start, why
don't you kick us off with this

whole category discussion?
What's happening in Europe from

your perspective?
Yeah.

I think in Europe in general, I
think the biggest difference if

we take the two main categories
that are representing, I think

US and the Europe are probably
like have a spirits on the

American side and Jim on the
European side now.

Yeah.
And I think like, I mean, when I

look at all the trends on the
best cocktails and the top

trending cocktails in the US,
there's always Margarita.

Any city it could be #3 #1 #5 #7
but there is Margarita there.

No.
So for me, I got there.

It's something that it's people
are getting more and more into

that because as you said, you
had a bad experience back in the

days with tequila boom or those
kind of drinks.

And, but in, in Europe, I think
like Gene, yes, of course

there's a, there's been a
proliferation brand.

So Gene Kettering is struggling
because this is a bit of a, it's

in a moment of understanding
where he wants to go because

there's so many gene out there.
So there is a quite a big fight.

I think it's similar to I got
experience in the US.

I'd say vermouth is very
trending here.

And I mean, it's also driven by
what we're discussing before

about the Negroni.
There's more and more talking

about vermouth.
And also because I mean, having

wine as a base is quiet,
especially in the wine drinking

countries, Italy, Spain, France,
it's it creates quite a

interesting bridge from the wine
aspect.

Yeah, it's something that's
benefiting from the rise of

cocktail culture as well, right?
Like you can use that as a as an

ingredient in a lot of cocktails
and it pairs very well.

So I'm sure that's exactly.
Exactly.

And I'm always asking the
question when I'm talking to my

friends or clients that are
doing a vermouth and I always

say like it's a chicken and egg
question is like, was vermouth

driving the rebirth of Negroni
or was Negroni driving the

rebirth of, of vermouth?
Like I think nobody really knows

the answer now.
It's a little bit of a chicken

and egg kind of dilemma.
But then again, like the

whiskey, I think whiskey is one
of an, of the interesting ones.

More and more people are getting
introduced to whiskeys.

I mean, I work with whiskey
brands every day and I'm getting

more and more into it.
And I wasn't a whiskey drinker

myself until 3-4 years ago.
And I, I love it and I love the

element of all the, especially
like the, the aging, the

maturation, all the playing that
you can do with the barrels.

And so there is, I, I would say
they're all element of this aged

spirits that are more and more
trending and especially with the

world whiskey.
I, I was talking to a journalist

friend of mine in Italy and, and
they, they told me that this

year, this coming year, there
should be like, I don't remember

if it's 10 or 15 Italian whiskey
brands coming out.

Oh wow.
They've done the aging, so

they've done the minimum of
three years and they can start

to release the bottles.
And that's very interesting.

And I mean like it's something
that has never happened like

this there, there were like few
brands here and there.

So that there's a lot of these
categories that are seeing

traction.
Does French whiskey, German

whiskey is even like Czech
whiskies.

Here in the in the Czech
Republic you see more and more

local.
Whiskeys and I think that's also

a very interesting trend for me
on where do we draw the line?

I mean, I'm Italian, I'm very
patriotic on food and beverages

when I see all these
denominations and appellations

and so on.
And but then again, like when

you think about it
moralistically, you say actually

there's nothing wrong in having
a whiskey that doesn't come from

the major whiskey countries.
No, like it doesn't mean that it

has to be bad just because it
doesn't come from there like

like it was for the New World
wines.

So there is an element of that
that is very interesting to

think about it.
It's more of a philosophical

kind of like debate.
Yeah, like your morals and your

aesthetics are having a fight a
little.

Bit I mean like is this is the
same we were discussing like on

a GAV experience.
I see more and more articles

about, I got it being harvested
and cultivated in Australia, in

India, the countries that allow
that kind of weather.

And of course, it's making a
challenge to the Gavis spirits

in Mexico.
But then it's again long, OK,

don't call it tequila, but OK,
like it, it could be very good,

especially on the restraint that
the production of a Gavis

spirits are having like with
that that they're putting on the

ecosystem down in Mexico.
Yeah, Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, you see a lot of US
brands importing agave just to

make their own agave spirit.
It doesn't have the designation

of origin and they can't call it
tequila, obviously, but just to

meet the demand for agave in the
US Like this has been one of the

most well established trends and
honestly something we barely

need to go over because it's
something everyone's aware of at

this point.
But the Margarita remaining the

kind of comfortably the top
choice for the most imbibed

cocktail in the US on premise
just from a value and a velocity

term.
It was up in the third corner of

2020, three, 20% from what it
was in 2022.

And it's something that like
it's just the most popular base

spirit in the US right now.
So it'll be interesting to see

how that evolves in the next
couple years as a supply kind of

clashes with demand a little
bit.

And what do you see in the US
like especially I mean that with

the brands for example, you work
with like coming from outside

the US trying to win to the US,
like do you see a a difference

in terms of categories or?
Well, it's interesting because I

think specifically speaking to
how the Europe and the US kind

of intermingle, like the US
remains the top export market

for European spirits.
A lot of these American

consumers are seeking
authenticity, they're seeking

expertise.
They're sinking, seeking

something that's hyper local,
which is what I was thinking of

when you were talking about
world whiskies.

While these traditional cultures
might have a little bit of a of

a problem adapting to it, it's
still like it's something people

want to see like local terroirs
and local grains and these

original whiskey coming out.
So I actually, I do think EU

spirits are pretty well
positioned to align with kind of

current American consumption
trends because they offer

quality products that uphold the
sustainable values and provide

people with interesting
ingredients that can be paired

with cocktails.
But from, you know, AUS category

perspective, US consumers right
now are I think particularly

fascinated with Asian spirits on
the whole.

That's something that that we're
really seeing.

There's a real interest in bars
with Japanese sochu, Korean

sochu, baju from China.
These are categories that have

been on the fringe, but are are
picking up more and more

traction in the US And yeah, so
I, I think that's, we'll start

to see a lot of those fringe
categories gain more traction in

2024.
This is something like, and I

think in Europe is still on the
quite niche you have to go to

specific ethnic restaurants to
find those brands is still not

there yet.
But I I see more and more

mentioning of that.
But I think the first ones to

arrive to Europe is going to be
the GABA spirits.

The GABA trends is probably
going to be huge if it has been

held a little bit like because
the focus is so much on the US

and the US is consuming so much
of A GABA spirits.

But then Europe has quite
difficulties in actually getting

the goods down here.
So I think people are it's

building this kind of momentum
and anticipation of when can I

get it, when can I get it, when
can I get it?

Yeah.
And I think the moment that they

open the doors is going to
really enter the market,

especially because of the vegan
components like the this health

aspects that are like this kind
of like better for you aspects

of the agave still in from a
responsibility perspective is

still alcohol.
But then as an ingredient gave

is getting so much of a good
publicity that that is building

this kind of momentum of like,
OK, I don't want to drink, but

if I want to drink, I'm going to
have an agave spirit.

Yeah, yeah.
And from just from an outsider

perspective, it's palpable in
Europe, like having gone there

for Barcom and Berlin over the
last two years in 2022, like it

was incredibly niche.
You were lucky if you found more

than five agave brands in that
whole massive convention.

But there last year, it was all
the rage.

It was on the docket for
education seminars.

You saw lots of brand popping up
with that representation.

So, and that's where it starts,
right.

So I think a more and more
substantial trend in Europe we

were talking about before we got
on the call how a lot of

European cities that are on the
cutting edge end up taking their

cue, especially regarding
cocktail culture and and spirits

from a lot of these American
cities.

So it would make perfect sense
that that would follow and and

just continue to to build more,
more traction as we go on here.

Yeah, absolutely.
And, and I think it's very much

like it's those kind of like
lighthouses in the different

cities with the 50 best bars and
with all this bartender

community mixing up and like
people coming and going and

moving country and so on.
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