0:03
Between the chapters, a weekly podcast discussion focusing on a chapter of the book 25 years of Ed Tech, written by Martin Weller. here's your host, Laura Pasquini.
0:15
Welcome to Chapter 20. Between the chapters were in 2013 open textbooks. I'm Laura pasquini. Still your host, and gratefully joined from the BC world. Amanda Coolidge, we are so grateful you can join us for a conversation about chapter 20.
0:34
Thanks. I'm super excited.
0:35
So 2013 I was just reading this aloud. And before we got started, I was like, that seems late for open textbooks, but um, am I wrong? Is that late?
0:44
Not really actually. So openstax really got started around 2012 open Stax being the organization based out of Rice University, which creates what I would say is high quality commercial, commercial, competing, open textbooks. And just to give a little bit of background in 2011 bc campus brought together some of the major players in open, Creative Commons, brought together SPARC, open Stax. Some folks from Washington who were doing some work in open and brought together this group to really ask what is it we need to do in British Columbia to be successful with open textbooks. And because open stacks was beginning at this point, it really helped us form a collaboration and really sort of set the trajectory for what we wanted with open textbooks.
1:41
That's great for some of our listeners that don't know I love SPATC. SPARC is a global coalition committed to making open the defaults. And that's for research and education. So they, they talk about open access, open Ed stuff, open data, love, love the work they do. And I think about them back as a researcher, you can get Sanyo in agreement to own the work that you write, as a researcher, as an example, the right to have your own data and the right to keep your learning and educational resources open as well. So just a disclaimer there. I think it's really interesting that we brought it so almost late in the game, I thought was, like I say, only eight years ago, but it was not that long ago that open textbooks became a thing, because I started using them as a faculty member on the open textbook library is one that was mentioned in the chapter. And that's out of University of Minnesota. And they really emphasize putting in books for at least as a faculty member, ones that are peer reviewed, and and kind of audited or vetted by other instructors, researchers, some faculty members, but hasn't really only been eight years. I can't believe that.
2:50
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things is, is everything started off with open educational resources, and in particular, taking a look at resources as these bite sized chunks that could be added or, you know, implemented within your classroom or within course, instruction. And I think one of the things, you know, yeah, only eight years ago, this idea came forward, looking at really what is the cost of a commercial textbook and the astounding cost that students were paying or continue to pay for resources for their classroom. And so I think at that point, it became very obvious that, you know, a textbook is something that could be swapped out as an open educational resource.
3:35
And put into context, we both grew up in Canada went to universities, where the cost was different to the cost take of the tuition. And textbooks were still pricey, but still manageable, if you could access them in different ways. in higher ed University days. I can remember a textbook, if I had to take a required science or math book, it's up to 200 to $300. A book, do you remember how much your books were?
4:00
Yeah, I'm trying to think about that, actually, now that you say that, I would say so. I was mainly I was art. But I do remember my first year and this is back, you know, 1997 I was paying probably $400 a semester for my books. I think I think that that's exactly what I ended up paying. I mean, now when you look at students, sometimes they're paying $400 per obit or per book, right? So, for example, they're not just paying for the textbook anymore. They're also paying for the additional access codes. So the software plus exactly the access to homework systems, the access to you know, pre completed PowerPoints or lesson plans that accompany created. So in many ways, I think our students today or asking, being asked to definitely pay and put forward a lot more than we did.
4:59
You Yeah, the publishing content in the publishers King is really grew, we'll tell you about this weird technology called the CD ROM, you put a disc like objects into your computer, and you see a desktop because we didn't have laptops, I had them back in the day, because I like you was in the 90s. Going to school and wealth. I honestly switched to my area was in history in English. And I really didn't stop buying books, because we would go get them on reserve, because the English major would have like 12 books a semester history, you'd have four or five, and that's per class. So I would just get them on reserve, or fast like I became a really fast reader. And that's I think, I realized why because I couldn't afford to get all them even at the co op. So I love that open textbooks are available. And they are growing. It's not we're not there yet. But we have a this wealth of resources that this chapter brings up. And it's from a few different areas. So it's not just in Canada, or the US or UK. But a few areas are growing. And I was really excited to hear that you started this somewhere else another part of the world.
6:04
Yeah. Yeah. So I actually started working in open education in 2006. in Nairobi, Kenya, I worked with, ironically, Martin's home base at the Open University. And I worked with the BBC and the African virtual university to help create an open educational resource repository for Sub Saharan Africa for teacher educators. So these would be for primary level educators who were looking to have open resources to be able to teach their students across Sub Saharan Africa, the coolest thing about this project is that it wasn't the global north providing content to the global south, it was educators who were in the global south, writing the curriculum for their global south, count, like colleagues. And so we created this portal, it's called Tessa, Teacher Education in Sub Saharan Africa, it's still in existence, and still going strong in the region. And I'm feel incredibly proud to have been a part of that project.
7:15
I love that it's the point of access is coming in the point of resources being developed or within and from the places they are instead of us. presuming that we our textbooks or literature, our knowledge is dominant, I think it's really important that we empower educators, students to create their own materials within I think that's great. It's kind of the getting people to teach people how to fish instead of giving them the fish. And I love that idea that you started that out. What did you learn from that experience in being there to support the scaffolding around this openness and creation of open educational resources? Yeah, so
7:54
it's really that's a great question. So there's a couple things I learned. One is localization of content is key. So for example, we were I was working with countries like Tanzania, Kenya, and Sudan, Nigeria, and each of those countries obviously has their own landscapes, their own culture, their own way of communicating across genders. And so it was so important to be able to localize the content so that the teacher educators didn't have to do the extra work of localizing or re mixing or changing the content, so they could actually use it as is. So for me, that was really that was key, and really understanding diversity. One of the things that I also really recognized is the ability that we kind of forget about sometimes in the northern hemisphere is the ability for these open resources to be in multiple formats, aside from a digital format. So for example, the ease of access of printing resource, what does that look like? And
9:01
what kind of
9:03
what kind of file types are we offering. So for example, we would offer not just Word file types or PDF, but also ones that we knew would exist at an internet cafe. So for example, like Notepad, or open text is, you know, the, the free, free use of what would be the equivalent of Microsoft Word. And so those kind of things really stood out to me as important. It took me you know, obviously, coming from the northern hemisphere to take me some time to really learn and value and understand that. And then lastly, the One really cool thing that they did, that was very early on to a lot of the work we do in the northern hemisphere is they engaged in content creation sprints. And so they brought together those folks who were writing the curriculum in those local contexts. They brought them together. To make changes to talk with each other to really examine what it is, what were the core curriculum standards required. So it was really, it was such a great learning experience.
10:12
It sounds like such a cool collective project to be a part of and, and really, you're learning what the needs are, I love the idea of, I really do think well designed learning materials, whether they're open or not are portable, and they are transferable and they can be reached. So I think about like, we assume that people have a Microsoft Office everywhere, no, like, you need a txt file or open doc file to get to them. Like let's not assume that people have the same points of access and where and how they learn is going to look so different than what our setup is in, in anywhere in North America. And we should also make those assumptions, even our in our own countries and say, not everyone has access to streaming broadband. So let's have these high quality video streaming content like No, that doesn't work everywhere. It's Let's be smarter.
11:05
Yeah, and because we were working with the BBC, we actually had, we actually had the opportunity to host sort of a weekly radio show. And that wasn't by by the developers that was by the curriculum, developers themselves. And so that was really cool as well.
11:26
That's really interesting. I think it's ways that we think about production in these early days, like you were doing this quite early for openness of this 2006, you said, so I think thinking about how we can co create and think about the resources around us is really important. And the localized facing piece I said to you before is is more top of my mind these days is are we designing things that meet how we learn or how we teach versus another part of the world might look different. And you brought up gender, I'm sure there's also things people thought about between tribes in Africa, even though it's in Africa, that country is quite eclectic and diverse, depending on what region you live in. So what else did you learn? Like, I'm sure you had so much learning experiences. During that time, that kind of fundamentals, you came back to North America and Canada.
12:17
I think another thing too, is something else I really learned about was the value of meeting instructors where they are. So not pushing instructors or curriculum developers to a place where you think they should be, but rather really working at a spot where working with them to to really understand better where they're at. And what I mean by that is, you know, at that point in 2006 2008, there wasn't a conversation about open pedagogy that wasn't even a term that was being used. But what, in my view, which is what we were doing very similar to that was, what can we offer? What can you offer as a curriculum developer to your students, that they could participate in that learning. So for example, a lot of the activities that you will find throughout the curriculum, there will be based on experiential learning principles. And so those kinds of things, you know, just really important to take it to really understand what it is that our instructors are coming with, what is their prior experience? And how does that experience then manifest itself within the curriculum they're developing? I think a lot of it too, is, you know, I would attend. It's interesting, you know, when I was first part of this project back in 2006, this was also the early stages of what was called the open courseware movement. So I would be sitting at a table with MIT and with Johns Hopkins University and all of these amazing players in the field, you know, also like Brigham Young University, so they're, you know, I'm sitting at a table with, you know, Kathy Casserly from the Hewlett Foundation, David Wiley, Brandon Mira, mitsu, like all of these folks who are incredible knowledge, well, there's an open. And at the same time, I realize that they were coming with a very northern hemisphere lived experience. So a lot of those conversations centered around the platform, the technology, the back end, metadata, things like that. Whereas, you know, a lot of our conversations, while also about the metadata and the backend, we're always really much more focused on what is access look like.
14:47
I think that's critical. It's it's not to say this chapter itself, it sits between two of these tension points to bring up that MOOC. Massive Open Online Courses and learning analytics So it's a wonder this positionality, Martin puts it in between and I think doesn't lose sight when we talk about platform and the data and information, what it actually means to give access because someone listening to this episode for some reason you've tuned in, and you maybe know nothing about open education, open pedagogy, or a tech isn't even in your vernacular, I will say, really good educators really care less about the thing. It's called, and are doing what you say percent? Yeah, they're like, I wanted to experience a learning or I want this to apply and transfer and make sense. And, yeah, so I, we started talking to me, and you're like, how did you get involved in this, and I was like, I was just interested in learning in different ways, and getting other people to be part of that learning community. And it sounds like you're doing some of the same that needs to be at the table with the open course courseware, folks, and everyone else thinking about this.
15:57
For me, it's always been about access, like bottom line. And I think a lot of that actually comes when I think about it, a lot of that doesn't just come from my experience in Kenya, but comes from, like my early experiences with libraries. You know, even when I was like seven or eight, I can remember walking into the library and just thinking it's so cool that I could like, just take one of these books and bring it home and read it. And you mean, it's free, I can do that. And I realized the library isn't equivalent to open education. But there's something just about that access to those materials that I just think that is so profound. And then I also think, if I have access to certain materials, why are we creating barriers for others around the world? to not have that access? You know, it doesn't it to me, it just doesn't create an there's nothing equitable about a society that limits resources to, to education.
16:57
I think that's a great question. Like, why are we Why are we creating these walls? And I think Robin derosa has mentioned this chapter, she also talks about that radical rethinking, and it's not just about the, the over price of the textbook, it's not just about this platform where it goes, it's about, yeah, bringing down those walled gardens. I'm, I'm a secret want to be librarian, and I've worked with a lot of those. So am I less Yeah.
17:24
Honestly, if I ever go back to school, I've often thought about doing like a master's in library science, because I am just so I agree, there's something about librarians, I just want to be like them.
17:34
I'm a big fan, I did a certificate on the way to do my masters. This is my confession here. Because I was going to take a library position, and I still might come back, because that's my last faculty role was in college of information. So a big love to the library, because like you, I used to walk out with a stack of books. And I still get excited with the library, I may have to library cards Don't tell anyone of different cities I've lived in recently, because I think there's such a value in getting access to knowledge and what it means now, and we are recording during late 2020. In October, I think the access to the knowledge the library is giving, whether it's digital books, audio books, pickup curb service is so vital. It just reminds me that we couldn't like build openness, without the backbone of librarians and libraries around the world, because it's a place of Commons of people coming together in the public sphere. And where do we have that these days?
18:29
Yeah, I don't. I agree. I mean, we don't you know, and the other thing, too, is I love that, that comments coming together, it also makes me You know, one of the things that I was really sad for, and I don't know what it was, like, where you were living, but with the start of the pandemic or libraries were closed, you know, there was very, a lot of concern about how do how do we actually make libraries a safe space, which also leads to another point of access, which had me very concerned for our students, which is where are they going to access internet if they don't have access to internet at home? So we're talking about not just the Public Library, but the Starbucks or in Canada, we have Tim Hortons, or, you know, the even a public Rec Center, where were they going to access these opportunities for internet? So I think also too, now that we have, you know, obviously, in the Northern Hemisphere, we're much more aware now of what a pandemic crisis can look like. I mean, overseas, there's been previous pandemic crises that I think we can learn a lot from as well. And now that we were in that situation, I think that's where it also brings up the point of what does access look like during a pandemic? Right for all of our students?
19:47
Yeah, I will say it's been tough. I experienced the pandemic in two different cities, one in Dallas, one and the other in Seattle, and I think the library had been a big backbone and why were you Talking with libraries is like Dallas City Library offers hotspots and hubs and places that people could connect. So they either had pop up vans, or they're giving out devices. And it was something that meant something, especially in communities I really needed in Dallas. And I think there's also ways that we can bring this as we bring this back to textbooks is what does it mean to put out information that I love that you said is accessible? It's equitable, it's inclusive, and it's, it's where people can find them. So it can't always be digital for some folks, or we have to think about what are the what's the infrastructure? Or how are we going to support that with giving them a device or I'm thinking locally in Seattle as we have donations of devices coming to our public schools, K 12, because they're not going to go back for, I think, until fall 2021. If that. And so we have to think about what that means, as people are moving to homepod schools or other eight points of access, and how can we support families, especially ones that are struggling with low income, we have emergency workers and more. And so this is going to be a bigger question of where and how people are going to learn. And I do think Open Textbooks play into that in terms of what's that curriculum going to look like for some that maybe relied on brick and mortar? A lot? A lot. Mm hmm.
21:25
And I and I said to you previously, I don't know a lot about the K through 12. System regarding open textbooks, but what I will say is, how powerful would open textbooks be across districts? Like in terms of that I often wonder if districts across Canada and the United States in particular could be using open textbooks? What does that free up in terms of financial contributions that the schools the government needs to make in other areas? So that's a really interesting topic to me. But on the post secondary, and that's sort of where I have a better lens in terms of open textbooks and where you know, where we've seen success and where some of the areas for improvement can be.
22:12
Yeah, let's talk about that. Let's jump to higher ed, because that's probably what we both know best, I think, I think I'm curious of, there was a real fear in what I know in the higher ed publishing world that moving to these open textbooks, really threw a lot of people that had maybe investments and economic interests into the mix. But I like that it's an it's a leveler, and equalizer across places. So how has the open textbook taken institutions by storm or by soft wave? What does it look like?
22:46
That's a great question. So I'll speak and I'll speak with reference to British Columbia, because that's where I'm located. So for those who aren't aware, British Columbia is in Canada, where the are those West, Western province. And for a little bit more context, we are north of Washington state in the United States. So in British Columbia, when we started the project in 2012, with open textbooks, we definitely started seeing folks who were interested in using open textbooks, right off the bat, so interested in core curriculum that was being offered. So psychology, chemistry books, and really identifying and sociology as well. So those were our main areas of focus to start with. And what they what happened, though, is that while the instructors were adopting or using these open textbooks, they realized that it was lacking a lot of Canadian curriculum, not only lacking creating create a Canadian curriculum, but for example, certain units of measurement, were more us centric, and so those things need to be changed. So that's where we really started doing adaptation work. And we turns out, we're one potentially what I believe to be in North America, the first group first organization to really take on the adaptation, changing and open textbook. You know, sort of as a full on project, which I didn't realize until quite a couple years later, but we were really the ones to pave the way in that area to say, hey, we've got these amazing quality books coming out of open stacks, and there's their, you know, well reviewed, high quality, the images are awesome. The only thing is that they're not localized, or even contextualized for the for the content or the folks that we teach in British Columbia. So what we've seen since 2012, were over $20 million in student savings. We've seen a wide range of uptake. Lots of the institutions now have what are called Open Education, working groups, that put forward suggestions to administration about how best to move forward with open education. They host workshops, they host events, we really modeled sort of a train the trainer aspect to open, which really talks about advocacy, this sort of, Oh, we are one on one to moving all the way through to things such as open pedagogy, how to enhance the curriculum with your students, so that your students are co creators in the work. And so we do have certain select institutions kwantlen, Polytechnic, University, University of British Columbia, British Columbia Institute of Technology, those larger institutions that have really been able to mobilize and almost sort of take the leap on their own. And that's been awesome. And they've, in a couple of those instances, they've actually started their own publishing infrastructures within their institutions, which is exactly how we want to see it grow. And then, you know, now we continue to do funding through our our government gives us funding so that we can then disperse grants across the province. And we also receive some Hewlett Foundation funding, which also allows us to increase those grants. So I think, I think what started what I should say is that the Open Education work in British Columbia started off as a grassroots movement. And I think that's really important. And the reason I say that's really important is because when you have an administrator or someone higher up in a post secondary institution telling instructors what they need to do, there becomes an automatic barrier, because no one wants to be told how to work or what they need to do within their own curriculum. And one of the beautiful things about open education is it gives faculty agency you get the opportunity to choose, how do you want to? What do you want to do with your classroom? How do you want to provide access to your instructor, your students? And how do you want to change that course material or those open resources to better meet the needs of your students?
27:12
I love that you said it's grassroots. So you hit me up my revolution, heart side of history, because I think anything that's done really well, you said, You give agency you see instructors and faculty finding value, and they want to become champions for what I say is a movement, like that's really what it is, is a movement to say, we want to use open textbooks we want to adopt, because I know that you all have a great textbook adoption toolkits, we want to be part of this community and learn more about it. Because anything that's top down, orchestrated, won't sustain and won't live on past the initial
27:52
play. So and what what folks need is instructors talking to instructors, they also need learning technologists and instructional designers talking to instructional designers and learning, learning technologists. I mean, it's, it's that relationship building that really, that really sort of forms that community. And, you know, we've, I think it's been one of the powerful things that British Columbia has had to offer. We have some amazing advocates across British Columbia who've been able to take that grassroots movement, and really make some huge changes across their institution. I mean, you know, also referred to in the chapter is Dr. Rajiv Gianni, who is who's you know, as a psychology instructor, a faculty member at kwantlen, Polytechnic University. He spoke at our one of our first open education, open textbook summit events, really, really sort of grew from there, where he was able to tap into the passion and the understanding for faculty about why they would want to engage in open education. And from their from the grassroots movement and the work that he's been able to do alongside his library. His librarians and a couple of the administrators is now he is managed to work with the president of their institution, and he is a administrator now, so Vice Provost of open education at his institution. So I think what's really cool about that is taking a look at grassroots to, to administrative level where another effective change can happen.
29:37
I think this chapter gives a few suggestions that I think is right, we've already said, it's funny. Books are artifacts with which people tend to have emotional connection. We've we've described our love for these things, but it has to come from somewhere and it's coming from those who use the most they're the educators, the faculty and the students really does empower people to use it. It's not just about switching to this new production or way of learning because it's cheaper or more, we can reach more people with it, people have to have some meaning making with it. And there's something that you learned as this kind of, I guess grassroots filtered up and filtered out to other institutions in the province that you've or may be passing on as you work with new folks to come on and say, we'd love to use open textbooks and OCR and what does this mean?
30:31
So there's a couple of things. One thing is and I kind of this is back to the lesson learned from Kenya is, it is so important to meet instructors where they are, not every instructor who will be using an open resource is going to want to change it. And that is fine. And we need to be okay with that. Not every administrator is going to want to take on some sort of open policy statement that is going to become the vision or mission of their institution. However, if we meet folks where they are, and start to engage in the conversation and build that relationship with them, then I think that's where we're going to see change. So for example, an instructor may decide, well, I'm going to use this open textbook as is for the first couple of years. And then who knows. And then oftentimes, they come to BC campus or to their own institution and say, Hey, you know, I've been using this open textbook for the last couple of years, and these are the things I've noticed that need to change. Or what we often do is if we say, you know what, there is not funding available right now, however, what if you take this, assign that question about what it is that you think needs to be changed, and ask your students to help in the CO creation of changing that. And that becomes really powerful in terms of having the students take a look at the curriculum a little bit deeper, having the students take a look at the, the localized examples a bit a bit further, we had one student who came to us from the University of Victoria. And he has he was using the open text open Stax economics book micro economics book. And he came to us and he said, I know you normally give grants to instructors, or to staff or to full institutions, but I'm a student. And I want to create case studies for the microeconomics book that are more relevant to the students of, of my classroom. So we ended up giving the student a grant to do this. And he started to add case studies that were relevant to the students. So for example, a lot of case study work around Brexit and the economics behind Brexit. And so those kind of things are so important and so relevant. The other thing that I like to talk to faculty and instructors about is we want to meet you where, where you are. And we also want to work with you to identify the changes that need to be made. So for example, if someone is referencing a period of time, you know, either September 11 2001, for example, in a psychology or sociology textbook, is that really going to be in relation to what your students have experienced in their lifetime? Yeah, I mean, we're talking about students too. You know, we're born in 2001.
33:27
So I think, you know, for me, the most important thing is to meet your instructors where they are, and also give them the support they need. So work with your libraries work with your instructional design staff work with those folks who can really provide the expertise and help in terms of finding additional resources or mapping out the curriculum for you.
33:54
I think it's true that it's a community that can be a support around it around changes, and I, I love that it's going to where your instructors are. But also, if you're going to challenge them to do something like what what are the support systems you have? And who do you rely on a faculty developer or academic developer? Or is there an instructional designer, academic advisor? Who knows, like maybe there's other parts of your campus that also could be there and help in that process? And looking at this chapter, I wondering if there's something that's not included, that you'd hope it dove into a little bit more because you've got a great background to this. So what's missing from this chapter, do you think?
34:38
So one of the things so we talked a little bit about critique and things and one of the things that I often I don't know if it's I feel a little bit defensive about or I just wish that we would focus some more attention on is there's often this conversation that open textbooks are lame because they Basically, what then the idea, you know, being like, well, you're just swapping out one educational tool for another. And I think what we're seeing more now is this opportunity for these open textbooks to be almost like a living organism. So what I mean by that is we have the content. And the content then can include what are called h5 p examples. So for those who don't know, those are like interactive elements that you can put within your content where you can sort of self it, students can self assess, you can ask some clarifying questions that might bring you back to another to another tool, the opportunity for your students to become engaged in that content. So for example, using open pedagogy principles within that open, open textbook, and sometimes I think, and so one thing I would love to see for this chapter, if ever to be done, again, is to really focus on what are the positives and sort of the pedagogical positives behind a textbook, especially when we start talking about first and second year courses, where the majority of those courses are using those textbooks. So I would like to see that while I wait. And while I do know that there are a number of, you know, amazing advocates out there who are promoting open pedagogy and open education practices outside of the textbook, I do feel like there is merit in us taking a look at the pedagogy and the actual curriculum development of a textbook and what that means for the future of resources. And also, by that I mean, is there the opportunity to modularize some of that content, the opportunity to provide interaction within that content, the opportunity to have your students co create some of that content. And also, lastly, I would say I would love obviously, now, this is probably turning into a full book about open textbooks, but I would love for there to be some case studies and maybe some case studies written by students where they really talked to us about what was the value and the importance of that particular open textbook in their learning experience. We often talk a lot about the faculty experience with open textbooks, their faculty experience with changing content, adapting content or using the content, but rarely do we really engage with the students to say what in particular, was of value to you in that experience?
37:49
Funny, you are reminding me of things I should have done in my own courses, but also a course, George Villa, Tonto said, a book he co wrote with his students around MOOCs, yeah, their learning experiences, kind of what I was thinking about that book, um, I was thinking about a book that Wiley created, which was like the project management, pro instructional designer. Yeah. And I had some my students go, yeah, that's fine. But I would like a different perspective that represents me, like, I'm a black student, or I'm, like, I'm an indigenous student. And so I was like, let's write it and how can they fit in and be shared in the comments somewhere in a textbook and not just in a? I think we've done it in like, I think of a wiki because as you said, like the architects was a living document. Like, it's like the chapter on Wikis. And it's also but what else can we put it that can be learned about in the comments for Oh, er, I think. I think there needs to be some wraparound. I love that call out. Because you're right. Our students do co create some amazing things. And they might be a case study. They might be a multimedia piece content, that could be part of it. Yeah, that's a good, good call out. I am thinking about that a bit more now.
39:02
Well, you got some work to do.
39:03
I know. And you might have a book that you're proposing so that I know. Yeah, right. Well, I really, thank you. Are there any questions that we should put out to Martin because he's open to that he's, he's gonna listen to that. And we encourage anyone that's listening. If you have thoughts about the open textbook, and what maybe should have been included, or the questions you have, we see this podcast is kind of a living work, and it's not finished. So are there other things we could ask about or we should get be like, Martin, what's up with this? he's open to that.
39:36
Yeah, um, I don't I don't know if I would ask. In terms of Martin I think he's always like you said always open to feedback and and great stuff. And I absolutely love the work that he's doing. So I don't have anything particular. I guess the one thing I would pose to everyone as you listen to this podcast is just that general question of what does access mean to you? And what does access mean to your institution? And how are you providing that access? I think it's really important for us to center this conversation around access because in my mind access to learning resources is what improves students learning.
40:30
I think that's great. I'm from what I'm learning from you, I'm gonna remind people of going to where your instructors are, and maybe where your learners are these days is kind of what I'm thinking about with from this conversation. So what does that mean for your teaching and learning? And how could you do it better or be more effective at it in terms of actually reaching your instructors or faculty if you're supporting them or your learner's if you're teaching or training them? So I think that's great. Well, thanks, man. It's been a delight to chat with you. Yeah.
41:00
Thanks, Laura. I
41:01
love that
41:04
you've been listening to between the chapters with your host Laura Pasquini. For more information for to subscribe to between the chapters and 25 years of Ed tech visit 25 years dot open ed.ca