Disability and...Communication with Sabrina Cruickshank

This month, on Disability and...DAO's Digital Operations Manager, Joe Turnbull, chats with Sabrina Cruickshank about the launch of Disorderly Theatre, a user-led theatre company for neurodivergent adults.

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The Disability and…Podcast gets right to the heart of some of the most pressing issues in arts, culture and beyond with a series of bold, provocative and insightful interviews with disabled artists, key industry figures and the odd legend. The Disability and…Podcast is currently monthly.

Welcome to the Disability And... Podcast, bringing together thoughtful discussion and debate. This month, DAO's Digital Operations Manager, Joe Turnbull, chats with Sabrina Cruickshank about the launch of Disorderly Theatre, a user-led theatre company for neurodivergent adults.

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Joe Turnbull: Hello everyone, and welcome again to the Disability And... Podcast. This month I'm joined by Sabrina Cruickshank. Welcome, Sabrina.

Sabrina Cruickshank: Hello, it's great to be here.

Joe Turnbull: Thanks for coming. Yeah, let's just kick right off, really, Sabrina. Could you just start by telling us a bit about yourself and your background?

Sabrina Cruickshank: So, I'm 27 years old, female. I'm autistic and ADHD with hypermobility. I'm currently studying a Master's part-time in Creative and Cultural Industries Management at Northumbria University, and I did my Bachelor's in Theatre and Performance at the same place as well as a Cert HE in Dance at Newcastle College University Centre and a BTEC in Circus with Circus Central.

Joe Turnbull: Have you always been interested in performance?

Sabrina Cruickshank: Oh, absolutely. Before that, I was doing performing arts at Stagecoach Performing Arts. I was in the care system – I don't mind saying that – and I was going through a tough patch at school. So I went through various different schools. I believe it was roughly about five-ish schools, including private tutors and a special school at Cedars. I went to Cedars and Heworth Hall, which was specifically for children that were struggling in schools because they often got bullied, etc. And because I spent so much time out of school, they saw Stagecoach Performing Arts as a kind of a substitute. So even though it was just once a week, for a while that was my only education. The council were able to pay for that because normally it'd be quite expensive, but they were able to pay for it because it substituted education since I wasn't going to anything else.

Joe Turnbull: What aspect of theatre were you most drawn to initially?

Sabrina Cruickshank: I don't know. I know that when I was younger – I mean, before I started acting or anything like that – I was writing scripts. I started writing scripts for my friends. I had one – it's really, really bad, it's so bad – but it was called Yohan, The Warrior.

Joe Turnbull: Okay. I mean, we've all done a bit of what is sometimes called "juvenilia" – like stuff that you did when you were young. Have you ever reread that script?

Sabrina Cruickshank: Yeah, it was interesting. It was about like, basically, there was this stone that kept the crops alive, and one day it gets stolen and the crops die. And it's about Yohan, the Warrior, trying to go through all these different demons and monsters, fighting them, just trying to get their stone back.

Joe Turnbull: Apocryphal. Yeah, I like it. And obviously, we've got you on to talk a bit about Disorderly Theatre. So yeah, I wondered if you could tell us how the idea or the inspiration for that came about.

Sabrina Cruickshank: I've been working like – because from, I believe it would have been just the start of my first year on the Theatre and Performance course, I started wondering about theatre companies. I really wanted my own space because I often struggled in social situations and stuff like that. I would have miscommunication issues a lot, and in the early semester we did have communication issues because obviously the rest of the class weren't so caught up on how to talk to me, and I didn't know how to talk to them because it was a mix of neurotypes.
And I just really wanted a space where, from the get-go, we understood each other. I figured, like, when it was the first year – and again, everyone's learnt from everything, everyone's brilliant – but in the first year, I was first put with a group that were neurotypical, and I struggled communicating. It was like, if I was non-verbal one day, I just wouldn't get heard because they didn't know how to communicate back with me. They were very much against the clock, so they didn't have time to read my messages or anything like that, so it was the loudest voice that got heard.

But the next time, I was put into a group where we were all neurodivergent, and it was the quietest voice that got heard. Because one of us turned up and was non-verbal one day, and they had their phone, and instead of everyone just ignoring that person, suddenly we just formed a group around this person and we read the message on their phone, and it was their ideas that got heard the most.

Joe Turnbull: Very interesting.

Sabrina Cruickshank: I just really wanted a space like that, and I wondered if it was my issue. At first, I thought I was the problem because I'm neurodivergent, but then when I got put into a group full of people just like me, I didn't have any communication issues at all. And I just wondered about how the world says that we're the problem. I don't see neurotypical people as the problem, but I do wonder if the education regarding communication is the problem.
Because when I was growing up, if you go to school and you have problems talking verbally, most of the time – if you're lucky, anyway – you get given education on how to communicate alternatively through written text or sign language. However, if you tend to not have that verbal communication issue, you can go through your entire education not learning about a different type of communication. And so I wondered if maybe it wasn't that we were struggling to communicate to the neurotypical people, it was that they couldn't speak to us because they hadn't been given the tools to speak to us, whereas we were fluent.

Joe Turnbull: Yeah, I think it's such a common disabled experience, isn't it? That you're kind of made to feel that you don't fit into systems and that you're the problem, but actually, it's the social model of disability 101 – it's actually the environment that's the problem and isn't built for disabled people, and it should be. And actually building it from the ground up with disabled people and neurodivergent people in mind, as with what you're saying, it actually benefits everyone; it means everyone can communicate better and has different tools to communicate.

Sabrina Cruickshank: I thought about, well, first off, I wanted to create a space for people like me that struggled. I can just about get away with working in groups of people where they're not able to understand me as much – I can just about cope with it – but lots of people in my situation can't. So I was able to go to university and be amongst people that didn't understand me – they do now, by the way, because I taught them – but I could do that. So many people can't, and so going to a space where you know that you're going to be understood from day one is huge, and it opens up doors, I think.

Joe Turnbull: Yeah, absolutely. And so even at that point, you're almost seeing that maybe you had a role to kind of advocate for other neurodivergent theatre makers?

Sabrina Cruickshank: Well, I mean, again, I came from the care system. I was brought up that we'd have these meetings every so often and they would ask me questions, and I would always have – because they'll say, "Oh, what are you struggling with?" and I'd start talking, but the moment I started complaining about something, they would bring the topic back to something that upset me, say, education, and that would make me cry, and then they would tell me that she doesn't know what she's talking about because she's crying. And so... but when I was on stage – when I was on stage, people listened.

So at first, I started using that platform as a way to tell my story. And I did: I talked about the care system in my first year, then I talked about autism in my second year, and then my third year I did disability. People listened, but then I ran out of things to talk about that were about me. And I realized that I was in such a position of power and such a unique position that it was my responsibility to use my platform to tell other people's stories – people that often struggle with stuff like that, other people that are being silenced, other people that are being made to cry because they had something that they really needed to get off their chest. It was my duty.
And then creating this theatre company, of course, it's very much designed around what the members want to do. That's the reason why there's so many different things that we can do, from directing and acting, of course, to set design and costume design. There's all sorts of things that I'm willing to teach because it's all down to what the members want. But I would like – and again, it's up to the members – but I would like it if our members felt confident enough to get up on stage and maybe they start telling their own stories, and then one day they'll run out of things to tell about themselves, and then they start telling other people's stories. That's what I really, really want.

It's like, I've been talking to – there's a union I'm not going to say the name of yet, but there was a union I was talking to, and they were very much interested in collaborating if the members were wanting a platform to talk about the cost of living, because they were very interested in that. I would love if I was able to get the group together and we could go around schools or anything like that, even workplaces as well. If we're able to educate neurotypical people on communication with neurodiverse people, that would be amazing because it's not just neurodiverse people that struggle with communication. You've got nonverbal people, but then there's also people that use sign language as well that are deaf.
And it's just like, going to libraries as well – because we are based out of a library, that could be very much our first audience where people are learning about the written word. A lot of children nowadays in particular, because of YouTube and all sorts of other different media, they're getting less and less enthusiastic about the written word. I see less and less people at the libraries; I used to love the library, but I don't see that joy in children anymore. And I would love to figure out a way to get them excited about the written word, not just about the adventures they could go on in their imagination, but how doors open to meeting your future best friends. They could be amazing, you could go on so many actual physical adventures, and you just don't know because you can't communicate via the written word so you never have that conversation that makes you best friends.

Joe Turnbull: Here's a question: if you were describing Disorderly Theatre to someone you just met on the bus, how would you describe it?

Sabrina Cruickshank: The best place that you never knew existed. A place on your doorstep. A place for the people that never had a place to begin with. Disorderly Theatre is community. A theatre class once a week. We have three-hour classes, two and a half hours of which is skill-based. Thirty minutes is a sensory experience. And it's for neurodivergent adults and their carers. We learn a bit about everything – not just theatre, but ourselves.

Joe Turnbull: Do you want to tell us any more about Disorderly as it is now? Like, do you have a group of members already?

Sabrina Cruickshank: Yeah, so we launch officially on the 25th of June. On the 25th of June, it's going to be at Gateshead Central Library upstairs in the theatre, and the doors will be wide open, so it's not hard to find. And it's going to be like – because right now we're crowdfunding, but we are struggling with that mainly because of our circles – so this would be also a fundraiser. We'll be having a raffle and tombola, but we've also got some activities planned. We're also going to have throughout the entire day a sensory area where people can go and relax. We've got some craft tables, a sensory area, and activities that are free. It's mainly just the raffle and tombola that cost money, but we're going to be making costumes on the craft table and stuff like that.

We're thinking of a themed, more physical activity that we would like to do as well, which would also be free, but it just depends on if we can get the resources for it. And that's from 10:00 AM till 1:00 PM. Then we also have a mini taster session that day from 1:30 till 2:30 PM. Sessions are normally three hours per week, so this really is like a third of a regular class. But each class normally has a few warm-up games, then we learn a skill, and then we cool off with two separate sensory experiences. So you've got the sensory avoidant and the sensory seeker.
The sensory seeker is basically where we get a lot of board games out and people can play board games, and if it runs over time, people can go downstairs to the library and use the library spaces. And then for the sensory avoidant, we roll out some yoga mats and we get out some blankets, and we've got a projector that projects some lovely moving scenery on the ceiling so people can tune out, listen to music, and just try to regulate themselves. Because from session to session, each session is going to be different, so we might be challenging difficult themes, and it's just really important that people are able to regulate themselves before they go back into the big world out there. Because I struggled with that as well.

When I was doing my performing arts when I was younger, I did this piece – it was a monologue from Gut Girls – and it challenged difficult subjects. I always got really deep into it mentally. So when I went home, it almost felt like – even though it wasn't – it felt like I was experiencing the same trauma the character had, and I had no way of regulating that because I just had to do the monologue and go home. And I was a teenager as well, I had no way of talking about it because it's just a character. No one's going to be like, "Oh," because they'll say, "The trauma doesn't really exist, it's just a character," and stuff like that. It's really important that they regulate themselves because I was in a position... though there was a really fun moment when we were doing Cats and I was playing a cat. I got really, really interested in balls on strings.

Joe Turnbull: I was just about to ask! Did that become your go-to stim and did you sleep a lot.

Sabrina Cruickshank: That’s a given, I sleep a lot anyway, I don't need to be a cat to do that. But yeah, that was wild. But yeah, there were other things from my previous experiences that helped frame my practice. For example, I won't say where because I don't want anyone to get upset or anything, but I used to perform. There were various places that I did dance at, but I would dance to a point where my legs would give out and I would just collapse. And instead of the teachers saying, "Are you OK?" they would point at me and say, "This is what everyone needs to be doing." They were like, "This is a person that's giving it their all. You should be giving your all just as much as this person did." So I kept on doing it. I kept on performing full out until I collapsed. I thought if I didn't collapse, I wasn't doing it good enough.
There was another time where I actually had pulled a muscle in my leg, and I'd been to the doctors about it. And the doctors had confirmed it. I was on Co-codamol and everything. And then I went to the class and I told the teacher, and she said, "Just perform through it because it can't be a pulled muscle since you're walking. It must just be like you're just exercising the muscle. It's just getting stronger, you know, it's just burning the muscle. You know it hurts to gain muscle." And I'm like, "I know. I know what that feels like." Because, I'll be honest right now, I'm plus-size. And I was at the time when I was being told that that pulled tendon, that pulled ligament, wasn't that. And I do think that if I had been smaller, they might not have said that. I think there is still that stigma that if you're plus-size, then you don't know how to exercise or you don't know what it feels like to exercise. But I do.

Joe Turnbull: Yeah. Yeah, it's just another example of needing to fit a normative idea of what, I don't know, a dancer is.

Sabrina Cruickshank: Yeah.

Joe Turnbull: If you don't fit that, then somehow – Yeah, you kind of...

Sabrina Cruickshank: like you don't know your own body. Yeah, like I got complimented on my feet, which is normal in dance, by the way – it's not creepy – but I got complimented on my feet because of my point. So I was able to flex my toes, and it was a much stronger point than a lot of people. But what ended up happening was, my ligaments are quite stretchy, and we didn't realize at the time. So, for example, today I have a walking stick. And yes, I can walk some distance without it; however, there's a lot of chance of me falling and twisting something because there is a problem in my knees where one is stronger than the other. And that's just to do with the ligaments and stuff. So I'm more wobbly, and if I'm particularly fatigued, I'll use my stick more.

But then again, I keep being told I should be using it all the time. And I think that's just a little bit of inbuilt ableism in my brain where I don't want to be seen with the walking stick because I keep on thinking: what if I'm using the walking stick and I see a bus, and the bus is about to pull away, and then I pick up the walking stick and run for the bus? Then no one's going to let me sit down, are they? They're going to... no one's going to give up their space because they'll be like, "You ran for the bus."

Joe Turnbull: I think yeah, I think that's a really common experience. Ambulatory wheelchair users sort of feel like they can't not use their wheelchair when they've got their wheelchair out because they'll be accused of faking.

Sabrina Cruickshank: Like, I cycled here as well, and that's something I've been stared at for. There's this old lady who stared at me in Trinity Square because I got off the bicycle and then I got my walking stick out and started using it. She was just staring at me. And I think that's because they think, "Oh, well, if she's cycling, then she must be fit enough to not use it." But the thing is, if my knees give way when I'm on a bicycle, I've got a seat beneath me to catch me. And so I can go further on the bicycle than I can walking.

Joe Turnbull: It's just ridiculous preconceptions from people who don't know anything about lots of different physicalities. But yeah, do you think those... I mean, particularly that experience – the dancing experience where you were being encouraged to push yourself beyond your limits – do you think those kinds of experiences made you really think in terms of Disorderly? Has that driven you to take a very care-driven approach, rather than that other approach that feels not rooted in care at all and is something very different?

Sabrina Cruickshank: Within performing arts, there's a group of people who believe that they have to keep pushing people in order to get those people to be their best. And there are some people that respond positively to that. But there are people like me who do not respond positively to it; in fact, it damages me. And I think Disorderly Theatre is very much like: if you come in one day and you just don't want to do something, you don't have to have a reason to not want to do it. It's OK. I'm not going to get mad at people. And it seems so small – you'd think that everywhere would be the same, everyone would be the same – but I've experienced it, and it's not the same.

The majority of performance arts classes, specifically ones that are like, more open to everyone... obviously, the performing arts places where they're more focused on disability, etc., they're a little bit more flexible. But also, why is that the case? Why isn't it just flexible for everyone? It just seems so obvious and logical, and I don't understand. But I don't know.

Joe Turnbull: It's quite an important distinction for you, isn't it, that Disorderly is aimed at neurodivergent adults?

Sabrina Cruickshank: Yeah. Yeah. Because there are a few places that are currently open for neurodivergent children. And you'll find that quite a lot of places open for neurodivergent children. However, when I grew up, I aged out of a lot of services and I was left alone. I was given... because there was a place that was open, there was The Lawnmowers, but that was too far away. I needed somewhere at least somewhat local. And so my only option really was university. And not many people are able to go to university. That seemed like the only place that I could go where I had some sort of control over the projects that we were doing. Because there were also other places where they're aimed at those who are disabled, but those who are in control control everything – they control the story, they control the plot. And then they just teach acting, nothing else.

Joe Turnbull: Non-disabled led, yeah.

Sabrina Cruickshank: But with disabled performers, yeah. It's almost like the creators are trying to do something charitable. And I understand that technically what I'm doing is charitable, but that isn't really the point. It's about giving people like me the agency, and we don't get the agency. It's like, I've been in services and they baby-talk me; they see us as incapable. And yes, I struggle quite a bit. I'm not even going to lie. I've been burned out for a little while starting this company. It's hard. There have been days where I've not been able to function. I've not been able to tidy my flat. Or, even some days, I struggle brushing my teeth or drinking water. I'm chronically dehydrated – my doctor told me so. So some days I can barely function. But I still was able to get this far, at the very least. So surely I'm at least somewhat capable.

Joe Turnbull: Yeah. It's important to have spaces that are by disabled people and for disabled people. Not just for, but by. By and for. Are there any companies that you've come across that are doing good work that you're modeling Disorderly on?

Sabrina Cruickshank: Yeah. Again, I'm bringing back The Lawnmowers, because at Northumbria University, specifically for our BA, we did some work with The Lawnmowers. So they did come in and do a workshop with us, which was led by the members of The Lawnmowers. And that made me think about – because I don't know the abilities of the people coming into the group, but it just made me realize that anyone can do it. And then there was also... we did... one of our lecturers was running a symposium, and we had The Lawnmowers come in. And it was kind of like a piece on acting without acting. So, like, for example, for people that struggle taking direction, can't learn lines, just anyone that would really struggle doing anything twice. And that's really what it was for.

So, what they had to do was, they grabbed an object – any object from the front of the stage – they'd take it to the table, and they'd just draw a picture of it. And then a mixture of me and another person from my course would pick up the pictures and the objects, line them up in front of the stage, and then the other people would walk off. And it was really a moment where they weren't acting, but they were on stage performing. I just found that really, really interesting. I thought that concept was really interesting. And when I'm teaching, I like – it sounds bad, but this is the only way I can explain it – I like tricking people into acting.
So like, I'll have people... for example, I remember there was this directing workshop I did, and literally, I had this one person come on stage, and I just said, "Just stand there and do whatever you feel like doing." And then I had the person that was learning how to be a director, and I told them, when the other person was away, to direct this person to pick up a chair and stack it without saying a word, without letting the person on stage know what they were trying to do. And it happened. They stacked the chair, and then they were looking around the stage like, "What?" And we were just grinning, and I was like, "It worked!"

Joe Turnbull: It's so interesting.

Sabrina Cruickshank: I just love tricking people into doing stuff; it's really funny and really fun, and really useful, because that was an exercise in performing without acting, and then also nonverbal communication.

Joe Turnbull: Yeah, and directing without words as well.

Sabrina Cruickshank: Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Turnbull: Quite a lot in that. And your intention in terms of the types of things that Disorderly goes on to produce – do you envisage co-authored shows that the group works on and co-devises through a process? Do you have any idea? I suppose I know that you said it's going to be shaped by the members, so maybe that's something you don't know yet.

Sabrina Cruickshank: It is very much about what the members want to do. And I think that it'd be very co-created. I think I'll probably be the glue. So even if it's something like one person writes the script and I figure out how to use it, I'm very much the glue, but they're creating the thing, so all the credit is theirs. I'm just facilitating it. Yeah, facilitation and maybe a bit of direction

Joe Turnbull: But it sounds like you're also going to put members in those leadership positions.

Sabrina Cruickshank: I would love to put them in those positions as well. Obviously, if they want to specialize in that, that's brilliant. However, I do want to rotate roles as much as I can, because even if you think you're going to love a role, if you've never experienced it before, you might end up growing to not like it as much. So I want to rotate if possible.

Joe Turnbull: Yeah. And I think with any of those kinds of roles, you do benefit from being on the other side or doing the other roles that go into making a production, because it benefits you if you're a director to know what it feels like to be an actor, and vice versa to an extent.

Sabrina Cruickshank: Yeah. Like, because when I was at Northumbria University, I was on the committee for the drama society. And so I started off acting in their performances, etc. And then, because I was secretary on the committee, I was part of the group that was okaying which directors got to do what. Then I started doing workshops for those directors to help them become better directors. And then I ended up directing and scriptwriting my own production. And I had one of our members shadow me as a director. And slowly – I don't know how much they noticed that I was doing it – but I was slowly giving them more and more responsibility until the final day where, although I was responsible for tech, pretty much everything else was their responsibility.

And I would never have done that if I didn't know that they were capable. And they were amazing! They started off... they are and have always been brilliant, but their confidence levels have always been quite low, and unnecessarily so. And so, oftentimes, they would get the chance to pitch an idea but they would back down from it. And I just needed to kind of hijack the situation to allow this person to find out that they're actually great. And so I did kind of manipulate the situation a little bit so that this person could shine.

That play I did wasn't my best work in terms of writing or anything like that; it was very much a collaboration between different societies, and you know collaborations are always kind of tricky. Sometimes it didn't work out as I had intended. However, everyone had fun, etc. And yes, it was very much about the actors, but a big part of it was this director as well. So my role as director was also kind of... I don't know how to explain it, but it was just... being a director isn't just about directing actors. There's so much more that goes into it. And sometimes being a director is knowing when to stop directing and when to trust the people around you to take the lead.

Joe Turnbull: I think you touched on it earlier, but there's also an element with Disorderly where you want to foster offstage skills as well, right? It's not just about the performing roles or creative roles like directing, but maybe some of the offstage stuff too.

Sabrina Cruickshank: Yeah, so obviously like set and costume design. We're hoping to get some extra facilitators in to help specialize with those, because we did learn a bit of costume design when I was doing Circus Central. I am a bit rusty in it, but I know the basics. I'm hoping to get some facilitators on that. I've got someone that's interested, who's also neurodivergent, who wanted to be a participant but may also lead. Because that's another thing: there's potential for the participants to lead sessions. You can participate and lead sessions, so that's also another option.

And then set design – that's something that we've done throughout the course. For our BA, we've done set design, etc., so that's something I can actually teach. But it's also about... even if you don't want to do theatre, sometimes just having a space to go where there's people like you who you can smile and laugh with is enough. Yes, there's skills building, but there are games, there are moments where we're playing and having fun with board games, or watching the ocean from the floor, relaxing, or watching space or a production projected on the ceiling. I don't know. It's just so much more than a theatre company. It's like a community.

Joe Turnbull: Yeah. In your dreams for Disorderly in the medium to long term, where would you see it? How would it pan out?

Sabrina Cruickshank: I'd love for us to be invited places to teach other people about communication because I would love to make a change. I would hope to inspire a change in the education system. I know that's a big thing, but I want there to be a change in the education system so that it's not just the children that become nonverbal that get communication classes. It's everyone. Everyone should have access to that same education regardless of neurotype. And I would love if Disorderly Theatre, however our future looks, can do at least one thing: inspire others to do what we're doing.

Joe Turnbull: It’s more about that than performing on big, grand stages – that's more important.

Sabrina Cruickshank: Of course, it's always fun if we could, but changing the system is more important, if we can.

Joe Turnbull: And you can do that by performing a bit as well, because you're performing the change you want to see. What's next? Obviously, you've got the official launch coming up in June. Now, we're actually recording this on the 5th of June, but this will go out later in the month. Speaking before that's happened, as you're listening, it may well have happened. So yes, if you're listening in the future, it will have happened and it was a rip-roaring success. I’m sure. Do you have any other final things you want to say to the listeners?

Sabrina Cruickshank: I want to say something that's slightly off-topic – still within topic, but off-topic, if that makes sense.

Joe Turnbull: Of course.

Sabrina Cruickshank: Stimming. Yeah, okay. So for the longest time, I masked my stimming. Stimming is a way of calming yourself down, normally physically, so it could be flapping hands or jiggling one's leg, or even bursting out into song, which happens quite a lot. For the longest time, I hid that; I masked. But within the past year or two, I've decided to unmask. And if people stare at me, I just stare back at them. And I would love it if I wasn't the only one. Please join me in the weirdness. Thank you.

Joe Turnbull: Be out and proud of your stims! Yes, absolutely. Thank you. Sabrina, it's been really great chatting to you today. Thanks for coming on the Disability And... Podcast. I really do wish you all the best with Disorderly. Maybe we'll get you on again in a year or two down the line. Maybe even more – maybe you'll have changed the education system by the time we next get you on!

Sabrina Cruickshank: That would be amazing.

Joe Turnbull: Let's hope so. But yeah, thanks so much, Sabrina.

Sabrina Cruickshank: Thank you.

(Outro): We do hope you've enjoyed this episode of Disability And... Further episodes can be found on the Disability Arts Online website at www.disabilityarts.online.