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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
The God of Fish
00:00
Welcome back to the podcast. It's good to be back with you, Jesse. Welcome. Well, you as well, Chris. Excited to be here today. Yeah, my name is Chris Bruno and I'm here with Jesse French and we're the hosts of the podcast with Restoration Project. You guys today, we're going to talk a little bit about what we call no, heal, no and restore.
00:24
Those are the three main categories or waypoints on the road to becoming a restorative man. And in order to do so, I want to back up a little bit and start with there's a there's a friend of Restoration Project. His name is Pierce Richardson, and I'm hoping to have him on the show here shortly. He literally actually has a forge. He is he is this is what he does. He he's a.
00:52
He makes knives and swords and all kinds of amazing things out of metal. And I had the opportunity to go down and spend some time with him one day, uh, several months ago. And I know Jesse, you went at another time. And so we both have this, the, this Pierce Richardson experience, which I don't know about you. Mine was, mine was awesome. It was, it was fantastic. It's so, it's so amazing. And it's the forges looks like in his garage. And he's
01:20
business out of his garage. And so I parked my car. I walk around the house to the, to the garage, which is this, it's kind of separate building in the back and he comes out and he's got his whole like, uh, you know, leather apron on and he's got, you know, he's just, he looks like that's where he belongs. Right. Like he had overalls overalls with steel toe boots. Yeah. Yeah.
01:45
And there's all kinds of metal hanging around. There's the various tables and anvils and hammers and chisels and the forge is there where he's, you know, kind of put it heating up the metal. And he gave me this wonderful experience of just walking through the process of what it takes to create a work of art really out of a piece of blank metal. And that's what they are. They're like.
02:12
works of art. I mean, they are, they're functional tools, but they are, they are far more than just, you know, something to, you know, a knife to cut rope. Like they, they absolutely are art pieces. They are. And they take, I had no idea. I had no idea how long each piece takes. I think it's like, what did he say? Like 60, 80, a hundred hours. Yeah, I think so. On one night.
02:40
It's just so much time. And so one of the things that I was just struck with was that he walked me through his process from the very beginning of ideation to completion. And it was amazing to look at, okay, here are the drawings. Here's some little scratch pad that leads to more of like a graph paper that has dimensions on it. And it has...
03:09
the life size piece and whether it's a knife, like a pocket knife or a knife, like a butcher knife or a larger thing, like a machete or a sword, like there are various sizes. The paper is that size and he's making sure that he's getting all the dimensions exactly right. And then he's actually also drawing onto it the different, what do you call them? Etchings, I think it's called, is the way that he marks it. It's not just like a blank piece of metal.
03:38
There's all kinds of knot work that he etches into it and around the hilt and the, I don't even know the right words, the hilt, the handle, like all that kind of stuff. Yeah, it sounds good to me. Yep. What he does, what he does with the wood, what he does with the metal. And then he also like opened this drawer. I don't know if you saw this drawer that was full of all these kinds of stones. Mm, I don't know if I did see that. And the stones and it has different kinds of stone and different kinds of wood.
04:07
And so one of the stones that he pulls out is like, this is, this is mammoth tusk. What? Yes. And I was like, what? Like literally like dinosaur mammoth fossilized kind of thing that had been dug up and he found it and had, and it was raw. It was not, it was not anything other than a vision that he eventually had that he was going to make into a handle that he was going to put onto a knife at some point.
04:37
But one of the things that just struck me with Piers was, like I said, that from concept to completion was how at every stage of the journey, there was this intentional artist, this intentional master of this is the kind of wood that matches the story of the ultimate piece that I am making. And this is the Celtic knotwork that I'm going to
05:06
either carve into the wood or etch into the metal on purpose because of the piece that I am making. It goes with the story of what this is about. And even the kind of metal, I think there, at one point he told me about a specific piece. It was, it was a, I believe it was like a large knife that an anti-trafficking organization had commissioned for him to make, to put into their silent auction as part of their fundraiser.
05:35
And so he then, what he was doing with the metal was there was, there's, I think it was a certain number. I forget the exact number. And when we have him on the show, we'll ask him, but there was some number that you take the metal, you heat it up, you bend it over and you press it together. And then you heat it up and you bend it over and you press it together. This is what happens in the forge, right? It heats it up so that it, and every time you do this, it makes the metal stronger.
06:04
Is it Damascus steel? Is that does that sound right? I could be totally making this up. Yeah, we should not be talking about this. We should not be talking about this. But what was impressive to me was that there was, I think he said like 1600 layers or something crazy like that in this one blade. This number of times the metal had been folded over on itself and the number that he did with the blade.
06:33
was important to the organization for the number of people that they had been engaged in rescuing from human trafficking. Wow. That's the level of detail and intention that this master is putting into every one of the pieces that he is making. I loved it. I absolutely loved it. I was just like gobsmacked with this guy. I was like, what is happening right now in this garage in behind his house? Yeah.
07:03
Yeah, the name of his his business is Icarus. I-C-A-R-U-S, Icarus Forge. And so go check it out. Like it is, it will be time well spent to just even see his incredible level of craftsmanship. So keep going. So the point is, the reason I bring Pierce up today is because when we talk about knowing God, there's two parts of knowing God that we wanna, we kind of land on here. So first of all,
07:33
When I was in Pierce's garage and I was beginning to look at the pieces that he had created, I was amazed at what I was looking at, the actual holding of the various knives and the swords and those kinds of things. I was amazed at the intricacy and the level of detail and all of that. So I could just look at the piece and I go, this man is an artist. This man is an artist.
08:00
So there is something in knowing God that we look first, when we look at the masterpiece, we get to know the master. Okay? That this is how he is. And so when I look at you, Jesse, when I look at the mountains, when I look at the world, when I look at my kids, when I look at the son, there is something about the reflection of who God is in all of creation around us, that he is creative, that he is loving, that he is generous, that he is...
08:29
warm and he is gentle and he is fierce and he has all these kinds of things that we can pull pull from nature and pull from one another. When we look at the when we look at the piece, we get to know more of the master, right? There is something there. Yeah. And then there's still more. And then there is still more that when we actually get to talk to the master, when we get to know him, the masterpiece actually becomes more
09:00
more. I don't know how to say that, that I can hold the masterpiece in my hand. I could hold that knife in my hands and go, wow, this is amazing. But then I hear from Pierce himself, all the intention, all the things. I could never have known that that blade had 1600 layers, because it was a thin little blade. But when I begin to know, and I hear from the master the intention and the purpose that he has put into every one of those things.
09:29
I get to know something far more about him and the piece. Both become more prevalent, both become more, you know, more to me. I love that distinction that it is both. It is both the character of God and it is also the unique character of a person, right? That both are enriched and known in more deep ways. That's such a great framing of that. So Chris, why?
09:59
is this knowing, knowing God, why, why do we have it placed and have placed in this part of the pathway and in the process of becoming more able to bring our restorative presence? Well, why is this so important? So we, you know, previous to this, we talked about, talked about the need for us to heal our wounds, talked a little bit about that. Why is it knowing God as a master, as, as knowing him as one who creates?
10:28
wonderful and beautiful things. Why is that critical to this process of our own restoration of which he is directing? Yes, that last phrase that you just said of which he is directing, I think is why. Because I think, think about it, Jesse, if you have heal your wounds and restore the world without the centerpiece being like orbiting around God himself, then all you have is some self-actualization,
10:57
some kind of good works kind of mentality. There's not this centerpiece of God himself as the center of all things. And I'm immediately taken when I think about this to Colossians where it talks about how like all things were made by him and in him and in him all things are held together. That he is the centerpiece of everything. And so if we have healing without knowing
11:26
or if we have restoring without knowing the God at the center, then we are in a very humanistic space. Yeah. We're in a self-actualizing space and I'm going to put it, we're in a very ineffectual space. Frankly. Yeah. So we have to have God at the center and which is why he's in that, in that middle one, right? We need to attend to the wounds that we have.
11:55
and bring our brokenness to him to heal. And by him we are healed and in him we are healed and therefore because of him we bring restoration. It's not because of I'm a good person that I bring restoration to the world. It is because of God. It is because of him that we want to and can bring our restorative presence to the world. Yeah, that's really, really well put, right? Because as we know,
12:22
know Him not only as one who has created us with the same level of intricacy and craft, even more so than what an artist does with their trade, because we have a sure sense of our unique glory. Again, that word that we use sometimes of the uniqueness of how we reflect God. And then also know His heart to restore and renew all things. That is the next
12:52
intention in that heart to make all things new. And yet he invites us into that work. The knowing really is the bridge within that process. That's real helpful. I just feel like if we don't have the knowing, like I feel so empty. If we don't have the knowing, I don't know that I can have hope. I don't know that I can, I just feel like, what's the point? Yeah.
13:20
Where am I going? What is this about? Where do I, how do I derive meaning and purpose and identity out of, out of all of this? Like I am broken, shattered on the ground. Why? What is, what is the purpose of trying to pull these things back and attend and try to heal these things? What is the reason? And I feel like not only does he give us the ability to heal and heals us and we participate in that healing as we talked about, but it also then gives me a reason to heal.
13:51
It gives me a reason to bring restorative presence. So talk about the difference between, because I think what you're describing this knowing is it's far more than memorization of doctrine. It's far more than like I can recite these theological statements around the character of God, right? What you're talking about is a knowing that is much deeper than simply intellectual knowledge. Is that right?
14:20
Oh, 100%. 100%. So I'm gonna, we've not rehearsed this. I'm going to totally put you on the spot. Oh boy. Okay. Last year you had a solo trip up to Wyoming and you were, you had some days away. Yeah. What about knowing God in that space? How did you encounter?
14:49
the knowing of God in that space. Oh man, I could talk for probably three, four hours, but I'll try to be succinct. So the setting matters. It's on the Platte River in Wyoming. I was gifted a few days at this old 100 year old ranch house that was 30 yards from the river. It was in October. And I share all that because my time there that was spent fishing, that was spent
15:19
writing in some big chunks of time. My experience of knowing God in those four days was that he knew me better than I knew myself. Like the gift given to go spend time in that place with the opportunity to spend time by fishing and writing, I felt deeply alive in that space. And it was as if God said, hey, I know how you're built.
15:47
I know how you're wired. I know that your soul will sing in these four days in ways in the setting that you don't even know, uh, until, until you step into that. And so that, and it, and it was, it was rude. It was, it was rooted in that level of personal intimacy. So I think what I'm hearing you say is that when we talk about knowing it is knowing God and being known by God. Yeah. Yeah.
16:17
Tell us about the fish, Jesse. So on the last, so the fishing, Platte River is great fishing. It was one of those great stretches of the fall, Indian summer days where it's warm and the leaves are turning. It was fantastic. And the fishing is great there. So I fished hard for three or four days, caught a ton of fish, loved it. My family came up for the weekend. And so they spent the last three days with me, which was super fun, but I fished less when they were there. And so the last day we were there.
16:45
I just was like, Hey, I, I want one more crack at the river, like before we leave. So I got up early and over the course of the few days, it's scouted the river kind of right and fished it and understood, Hey, where, where some of the great spots were. So I went to this great little bend, uh, where I had caught some fish before and it was about six 45 in the morning and. Was just, there's just so much anticipation and hopefulness of like, Oh, this is a great spot. Had lost nice fish there before.
17:14
It was the last morning we had gone, or we were there. And so I go and on the third cast, I hook this fish that instantly I realize, oh, this is not the small little stalker rainbow. This is a legit trout. So I turned into this hot mess as I always do when I have a fish hooked of just like slipping on the rocks.
17:38
And like falling down, I'm just like so excited, but also so petrified that the fish is going to come off. So it's this total, total mess. And after about five or six minutes, somehow by God's goodness, I ended up netting this trout. I had way too small of a rod. And so it took forever to like get them in, blah, blah, blah. So I get this fish netted and, and it's the biggest rainbow trout I've ever caught, like it's over 20 inches. Oh, wow. Wow. Just, and again, fishermen are notorious for.
18:08
you know, ranking everything in this number space, right? It's this massive fish. And I just stood there in the river, the sun's like popping out of the clouds. It's shining on these cottonwood trees that are their leaves are turning. And like all I can do is like barely utter the words. Thank you. Hmm. Like that, that was the only and felt so meager and so insufficient, but felt far more than was it great to catch a fish? Yes. So fun.
18:38
But it was actually in that that I felt like my heart was seen and given this unbelievable gift that I, that I didn't expect. And so then the next piece of the story, I'll make it short. I like let the fish go and had just like this looked at my watch and like, okay, I have 20 minutes left before I neglect all of my father and marital duties and I'm like, okay, I'm going to go fish one more hole.
19:04
And so the whole time I had caught only rainbow trout from this river. Stunning, beautiful fish. And yet over the course of that fall, brown trout, if you know anything about them in the fall, they spawn and their colors are just stunning. And I just was like, man, I would love to catch a brown trout. And even like thinking that thought felt kind of ungrateful, right? Like, dude, you just caught, do you want more? Like you just caught this trophy stunning fish. And I was like, I'm just going to give it one more try. So I like hooked.
19:34
hooked it across this island, went to this other hole, start casting, cast for like 15 minutes. And I'm like, okay, I guess there's not one there. And I'm getting ready to leave, make one kind of like the last few casts, hook this fish and I'm pumped. And as I'm trying to bring the fish in, I see this sort of scarlet flash, which I am like, oh, that's this other rainbow, right? Like it's this great. And he's kind of playing around. Finally, I get him into the shore and get him netted. And I realize...
20:02
It's not a rainbow. It's a brown trout. And so it's this. He had just had this splash of orange and red, which red is not always as common, just this stunning color. And so I get him netted. And again, I'm just like in disbelief. Right. Like too, too good to be true. And the other wrinkle of it that I love is leading up to this point throughout the week. I brought my phone, snapped a bunch of pictures.
20:29
Most nights I would text my friends and my family like, Oh, check it out. It's a big trout, right? And my phone cracked, died the day before. And so for each of those fish, there's no picture of it. And on one level, when I caught each of them, there's the sadness of like, Oh, how will I? How I can't prove to my friends like, Hey, look what I caught. Right. It can be the classic fisherman like, yeah, sure. Cool. And yet now they're.
20:57
But then there was this feeling of like, oh no, this is meant only myself and God know the goodness of this gift. Like it is only shared with him, right? Because it is given from him. And so just even that piece of the story feels so surprising and so good, right? There's no cheapening of that in the sense of like, from a photo, right? And it only is relived and savored in the telling of that story. Yeah.
21:25
Well, thank you for sharing the story, Jesse. Yeah, thanks for asking. I have one more question. What is it like and how does it begin to heal parts of your story when you know that God is privately particular in the giving of a gift just to you?
21:45
It means that I don't have to earn or generate goodness in my life. That that actually can be received and trusted upon to come from somewhere else than me. Yeah. There's, there's a lot of story underneath the words that you just shared. And you've been really generous with us in giving that to us today. And I asked.
22:14
because when we talk about knowing God and being known by God, that it is in the knowing and being known by this God that actually brings healing. And he shows up in brown trouts and 20-inch rainbows, and he shows up in cottonwood trees, and he shows up in the crazy slipping around while you're
22:44
in some really particular ways that only you and he will ever know.
22:50
And he loves that. And that, you guys, that is what, when we talk about healing our wounds, is acknowledging, and Jesse, like I said, you were generous in just saying that you don't have to earn things. That's part of the healing of wounds that you need to heal. And it is in and by the knowing of this God who loves to play in the ripples of a river.
23:19
with some fish that he made just for you to catch. That can give us as men the courage to be restorative, to show up with our presence, to be and become that man that he made us to be. Yeah, that it is that God who is leading this work, right? The God who is, I love that phrase, privately particular, who knows us at that level, who is that.
23:47
that close who is actually directing this process. Yeah. Not from a distance, but closer than we know. Yes. If we don't have knowing this God as a part of the journey, then it was just a great day of fishing. Yes, yes. It was just a beautiful place. It had no impact on your life and the healing of those wounds and no impact on who you now can be.
24:17
If we don't have knowing God as a part of the journey, that is ultimately the answer to the question you asked me earlier. Why do we have no as part of this? That's why. Yeah. Thanks for asking. It's yeah, it's a goodness just in recounting that and reflecting that. And yeah, so thanks. Yeah. Well, you guys, we're going to continue talking.
24:45
in further episodes about the Restorative Man journey. Heal your wounds, know your God, restore your world. We have a special guest next time as we talk about restoration. We're gonna be talking with Cody Buriff, one of our fellow staff members, to talk about restoration and some of the work that he's doing in other places and bringing things back to their original design. So stay tuned.
25:15
Yeah, I'll see you later. Thanks, Chris.