Visionary Voices Podcast

In this conversation, Simon Fagg shares his journey from a sales manager to a successful entrepreneur in the leadership consultancy space. He emphasizes the importance of purposeful leadership, values-driven business practices, and the significance of active listening in effective leadership.

Simon discusses the challenges of transitioning from employee to business owner, the importance of maintaining a strong company culture, and the key traits that define successful leaders. He also highlights the necessity of understanding one's purpose in leadership and the impact it has on team dynamics and overall success.

In this conversation, Aqil and Simon Fagg explore the evolution of personal and professional values, emphasizing the shift from a money-driven mindset to prioritizing family and relationships. They discuss the importance of communication in maintaining healthy relationships, especially in the context of entrepreneurship.

Simon shares insights on balancing work and family life, advocating for a blend rather than a strict balance. The discussion also delves into the impact of AI on business, highlighting the irreplaceable value of human interaction. Finally, Simon reflects on lessons he would share with his younger self, focusing on the importance of relationships, leadership, and continuous learning.

leadership, coaching, entrepreneurship, values, business growth, active listening, team dynamics, purposeful leadership, executive coaching, consultancy, entrepreneurship, family values, communication, AI technology, leadership, personal growth, relationship management, business success, work-life balance, self-improvement

What is Visionary Voices Podcast?

Welcome to "Visionary Voices" the podcast where we dive into the minds of business owners, founders, executives, and everyone in between.

Each episode brings you face-to-face with the leading lights of industry and innovation.

Join us as we uncover the stories behind the success and the lessons learned along the way.

Whether you're climbing the corporate ladder or just starting your business journey, these are the conversations you need to hear - packed with visionary voices and insights.

Let's begin.

So Simon, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for joining me today.

Could you give us a top level view?

Amazing.

Could you give us a top level view about what it is that you do right now and your journey
so far?

And let me get...

Right.

Yeah.

So my consultancy is called with leadership and we facilitate purposeful leadership.

So what does that mean?

When I, when I say purposeful, it's purposeful.

So purpose hyphen full.

So full of purpose.

And the three ways that we do that mainly is through executive coaching, through team
coaching.

And then the third area is development programs.

So the team coaching particularly is really interesting for me because it's looking at

How do we help a dysfunctional team become more functional?

And the one-to-one coaching is really developing how leaders see themselves and
challenging their own view of themselves and helping them to be higher performing.

And then the development programs is more classic training and experiential learning that
helps managers to be more effective leaders.

And yeah, it's very fulfilling.

It's work I love.

And I've been in the industry for

about 27, 28 years now.

but prior to that, I was in sales roles and managing sales teams.

And I transitioned over several years ago, because I found this was my real passion.

I was good at selling concepts, less so selling products.

And I found that when I moved to the training world, I was able to use all of the skills
that I gathered to deliver great training outcomes for.

for my clients and found that my niche was in developing people rather than selling
products.

Very cool.

So, I mean, talk to me about that shift from going from sales and working a job and then
maybe getting into the business world itself.

So was that the shift that you did straight away or did you work in a leadership
development company first and then move into your own business?

What was that path like?

so I set up my own company six years ago and that has been, you we've got a boutique
consultancy.

We're, yeah, it's going very well.

It's been very successful.

It was set up just before COVID.

So it was a bit of a challenging time to set up business in the first year.

But thankfully COVID was still not too bad for us as a business with the projects we were
working on.

So yeah, that was in the more recent history, but I...

I moved into the training and development sector as using my sales background.

I I came in as a sales manager for a training consultancy.

And then I transitioned into the consulting arm of the business.

After about 18 months, I my role with another sales manager and I started doing more of
the consulting side.

And then, know, experience and accreditations and...

extra trainings for myself and development over those years has brought me in as an
executive coach and a facilitator working across the world.

Very, very cool.

And then the shift from, you know, working in a job and then going in and being a business
owner, how has that shift for you?

Because I know for a lot of people, right, it's a big scary thing, like going into that
world.

And it is very scary.

You know, there's a lot more responsibility, less consistency potentially, and risk as
well.

So how did you find that challenge and that transition into owning your own business from
working a job?

Yeah, I mean, so to give you a little bit of broader context, that first agency I worked
out was there for about four years.

And one of my other colleagues who was much more senior than me decided to go
self-employed.

And I think important context contextual piece for this is I got married pretty young and
also we started our family very young.

So my wife and I have got seven children.

We've got six daughters, one son.

And so around this time I had maybe five children.

I was in my early thirties.

And really thinking about right, how am I going to support these?

the the I love my family is one of my driving forces, you know, key value for me is his
family.

It's like, how am I going to get better income stream for for the family?

The idea of a side hustle back then just wasn't a thing.

don't think, you know, it wasn't really the, you know, the, internet had only really, it
was in its early days.

Anyway.

one of the things I saw my colleague move and thought, actually, that could be a route for
me to kind of be more of a freelance consultant and sell back my services.

And I was fairly early on in my career, but I had some really good success with the
projects I was working on, get really good feedback from the clients.

And I knew I was well valued within the company I was working for.

And so it was quite a risky move really.

I've got a large family.

I've got, you know, one income stream.

My wife is a stay at home mom and so she's looking after the family and I value that role
and I'd like to help her, you know, stay focused on the home as much as we could.

And I could see about six months ahead of me that if I left that organization, they would
be really challenged if they didn't use my services.

Mmm, yeah.

myself back and I had some other contacts where I knew I could get some other work, but
that would be a bit more of a slow burn and I could see just six months ahead and that was

all.

And even maybe I could see really clearly three months ahead, but the next three months is
a little bit more gray.

I thought, you know what?

Everything about this situation is I've got to do this now.

I have like all the stars were aligned and I knew that if I didn't do it then it might be
several years later or not at all.

And so I took the, I'd say fairly courageous move to step into the gray and, to set up on
my own as a freelance consultant, but I wasn't setting up a business really.

I was setting up a solo entity and it was a business of course, but I had no visions for
that to be multiple more, more than me.

And thankfully that worked really, really well.

And then I formed a partnership with another person that I'd started doing work with,
worked with them for 13 years.

I left them, worked for another agency for a few years and then set up on my own six years
ago again.

And with the intent to build a small business rather than just for me to be a sole trader,
know, freelancing in the executive development world.

Yeah, very.

Yeah, definitely.

Definitely.

And it's interesting, you you kind of had that feeling that you needed to take that risk
then, you know, I mean, I think a lot of people do get that feeling sometimes, like you

can just, you just kind of feel like this is, this is the move we need to make.

And sometimes it doesn't make logical sense, right?

Is, know, as you said, right, you've got a big family to support, you need maybe
consistency and you need that solid income and everything, but at same time, that feeling

inside is actually, I need to this now because this is what makes more sense in the long
term.

Yeah.

Import.

sorry.

Okay.

I thought you'd I important thing as well.

My manager at the time.

So when I broke the news to him, so sorry, two things, my direct team leader there, when I
let him know we had a really strong relationship and we're still good friends today.

He was really supportive.

Like he was upset because he would lose me from the team directly, but he was really
supportive.

It's like, look, if I understand it, understand what's going on and wish you well.

When I then spoke to one of the partners of the firm, he was really dismissive.

Like he wanted me to stay in the business.

I know that that was his intent, but what he was saying, I mean, you've got five kids that
will never work.

You're only four years into this industry.

What can you do?

You know, it was that type of tone.

You've still got so much to learn, which was absolutely true.

I did have, I still have so much to learn, but he taught me down.

And what was really interesting when I come out of that meeting, I was even more
determined to make it a success because he told me I couldn't do it.

was like, right.

I'm going to show you.

I will make this work.

And, and I did, yeah.

And he was a nice guy, but I can understand where he was coming from, but it was, it was
interesting how he, was probably still a bit reeling that he'd invested in me and he had,

and now he was losing one of, you know, an important.

say asset from his business directly.

yeah, it's good.

cool.

I mean, you've got to use what you got right.

And if people are doubting you and everything, then you can use that and use that as the
motivation you need to keep pushing through.

So that's really cool.

Now, talk me through, I guess, the early years of the current business of, what was that
like?

How has it been growing a team?

Because before, of course, you know, was just really yourself as the consultant, but now
you obviously have a team.

So how has that transitioned into managing a team and scaling this current company?

Yeah.

So it was really important for me that when I set up this business, I was going to do it
dancing to my tune.

I had had some experiences working with others who, as we grew, had started exhibiting
behaviors that I wasn't aligned to in terms of the values.

was a little bit kind of...

Well, in one instance, you know, really impacted my mental health.

Actually, it was just, we're doing some brilliant client work.

The business is going super well, but in terms of that internal relationship, we were
just, the more we grew, the more, um, uh, the more we also grew apart in terms of the, was

important to us.

So when I set up the business, I was really determined that we would, it would have a
really strong values core to it.

whatever we did in terms of the outcomes, were going to make sure that it was aligned with
a set of values that were really important to me.

So I mapped out that.

It was a critical part of my business planning process.

It wasn't just the financial goals that I wanted to achieve.

It was actually how we were going to take the journey.

And that's as important to me as the destination is that we travel well.

And so I laid those out.

Even the name of the company, it's a little bit of a weird one in some ways is I've called
it with leadership.

So I've got a preposition as the title.

And when I set this out, it was like this three elements of that.

want to lead with, I want to lead with a certain set of values.

And I want others to know that's important.

The second is this point I made, whatever you're doing, do it with leadership.

So even if you're not a leader with a capital L that you are still recognizing that you
can lead in the role that you're in.

And then the third was the approach to clients is that I want to partner with clients.

I don't want to just transact.

I don't want to just come in and deliver some coaching or to deliver some training.

I want us to create the outcomes that are important for the client and make sure that
we're focused on what they want and that we have this real

Reciprocal relationship.

I've seen great success with that over the over my career and I know that's our sweet spot
is partnering with our clients and so that with word was really important so I Really want

to emphasize that that in my mind when I set up the company that was like it was almost
like I want it to be the antithesis to some of the experience that I've had in some of the

other businesses of working for someone who was more driven by Let's call it productivity
over

the relationship and the quality of what we were doing.

So that was a really important thing for me in those early days.

And then I've hired some family members that were, you know, that were, I thought would be
a really good fit into that.

And we started developing the client base from there.

So I'm committed that all of us to do a really high quality work.

We're a professional services sector.

And I know over time that what will come back is that people will want us to do more and
more.

If we're genuinely adding value to the business, they will ask us to keep coming back to
do that.

And if they move to other companies, they'll ask us to come with them.

And that's been our story of growth is those strengths of relationships I've built up over
the best part of 20 years.

Yeah, definitely.

And I love what you said there about, you know, a values first approach to the business
model, right?

Because I see it so much, especially in my industry within marketing, you know, a lot of
marketing agencies, they're very transactional in the way they approach things, right?

It's not about partnering with the client.

It's like, cool, how many sales can we get today?

And that's it.

That's what they care about.

Whereas for long-term sustainability and growth, and if you want to have this for, you
know, long period of time, then you can't act in that way.

And so it's refreshing to hear, you

you took that approach with the values.

But then how with, yeah, sorry.

to make the point, if your intent is to be more transactional and there's some businesses
are they're selling product, they happy for that.

I'm sure.

And I know that some businesses are very successful doing that.

I just didn't want that to be my business.

Okay.

So I'm not saying that every business has to be values bait.

Well, I'd like it because I do think it's more sustainable, but you know, everybody's got
their own motives and drivers for doing this.

And mine was not that, you know, it is like, I want this to be a really fun.

fulfilling experience that we grow the business and we don't lose connection with what's
important.

how do you maintain that culture as the team grows?

And especially, guess, through the hiring process as well, right?

How can you identify that people align with these values?

Because I think that's where a lot of businesses struggle, right?

It's hiring the right talent and maintaining the culture to that high level.

So how have you gone about doing that?

Yeah.

So when we hire the values are part of that hiring process.

So it's checking in on that.

So people are really clear what they're coming into.

And the other part is we within the organization, when we have our pulse meetings every
week, you so when we get the team together to discuss what's coming up on the week, when

we do our team meetings, it's always an agenda item.

In fact, we finish our weekly meeting talking about the value of the week.

and we talk about how we're going to live that.

We had our team meeting earlier this week.

The first thing we started was with one of our values, which is called B1.

And we just discussed its application to us that week.

And so it's in the ether, it's in the air.

It's a core part of the language that we use with each other.

Now, everybody brings their own set of personal values to the organization as well.

And some of those will not be exactly the same.

as the company and that's totally okay.

But I have set this up with those values as a framework for how we're to operate.

And so I have had some conversations with the team where their behaviors starting to
distance from the core of the values that we've agreed.

And I'm not asking them to change their personality.

I'm asking them to be more aware of their behaviors for the context of the company that we
work in.

I want them to bring their whole self to work and be sensitive to the fact that some of
their behaviors might rub up against others like mine do.

And I need them to give me feedback when that happens.

so the feedback culture within the culture of the organization is a critical part to
making that work because we're not always, I'm not going to live up to those values,

everything that I do, but they are a North star that we can come back to and say, look,
have we operated?

in alignment with those statements that we've agreed.

Yeah.

And as you said, right, it's having those feedback loops baked into the culture and the
business model itself, because we have the feedback loop for the product and the services

that we have, but not always for the culture and the team as well.

So having those systems in place really helps to get that feedback back.

And then you can keep improving, as you mentioned.

Yeah.

teams a lot.

so, and often I'm being asked to come in to work with the leadership team when it's not
functioning very well.

And one of the things that I see is this playing out in reality is that they haven't got
shared value, shared commerce, a common purpose, a collective output that they're trying

to reach.

They've got these individual thoughts about what success looks like.

And so I don't want to

create that in my own organization, I want us to be able to model it so that when we go
out to clients and often we're co-facilitating as colleagues, that they can see that we're

actually working as a really effective team.

We're not putting on a facade, we're able to demonstrate what we're actually teaching and
that we're helping them to learn through the events that we design.

Yeah, definitely.

And I guess with the clients that you've worked with, what are some of the key traits of
maybe unsuccessful leaders, right, that you've kind of come across and you've identified

these are some common traits that we've seen that you always want to try and improve for
them.

So what are some of the traits there?

And it'll be interesting to discuss that a little bit more.

Yeah.

I'll maybe do a quick plug here.

So I also run as maybe this is my side hustle is I I'm a podcast host.

So I host a podcast called after dinner leadership.

And one of the questions I ask is what three leadership learn lessons do you wish you'd
learned earlier?

And I think it ties into what I also see.

one of the most common lessons that someone will share is that they wish they'd listened
more effectively sooner.

And one of the traits that I'm hyper sensitive to that often is missing in a leader that's
not doing very well is that they're not listening.

They've stopped listening and they're transmitting very effectively.

They're putting out their message.

They might be individually really determined, but they're not actually picking up on the
cues and what's going on within their colleagues.

Even at a senior level, they've stopped listening to what people are saying.

So that is

That is one of the traits which I often will observe and try to help leaders to work with.

So one of the methods that I've found to be really effective, for example, is everybody
speaks, leader speaks last.

And with that little mantra, it helps the leader to sit on the hands for a bit, absorb
some of the information that's coming through from the colleagues and then making their

comment.

after they've listened to what other people have said, just as a quick example of that.

Yeah, I think that's a really cool little kind of tactic there really, because ultimately,
as you said, you know, a leader does need to actually listen, but not just listen, right?

Actively listen as well.

I think it's so easy, right?

You can just be like, yes, yes, yes to everything someone's saying without actually fully
taking it on board.

But then also the other side of it, as you mentioned, you know, just noticing that the
team dynamic, right?

How is the team feeling and listening to that side of it as well?

Because I know I've definitely worked in a couple of businesses where

you know, the leaders are in the same room as us, but can't actually understand what's
happening in terms of the vibe in the office and how people are actually feeling on that

emotional level potentially as well.

And so having that active listening part in all areas, not just, I guess, in meetings is
so critical to, again, get that feedback loop back and then you can keep improving that

culture.

Yeah, agreed.

The other trait that again ties into my purpose is that they're not clear about why they
are there.

So the leader has inherited a role.

They've grown up through the business, for example, or they've come in and they've got a
job description.

They've got set of outcomes, but they haven't always given a real clear sense of why does
this role exist?

Who or why did my like and what is my role as a leader within this?

Why am I here?

What am I trying to achieve?

What is the style that I'm going to use that's going to be most effective?

What are going to be the measures of success that I'm going to use to know that my
leadership is having the impact that it should do.

And that's not just financial results.

You know, what are the other success measures?

So they haven't done some of that work on themselves, I guess, around around that.

And so

find a lot of the coaching conversation often starts there.

Like what does it mean for you to be purposeful in your leadership rather than purpose
empty?

I'd love them to be full of purpose, not empty of purpose or devoid of purpose.

where when you have a mission, you have that fulfillment working towards that goal.

But as you said, if someone's just been promoted up for a role and doesn't actually fully
understand what their purpose is and what they're actually doing and what their mission

is, even just within that micro environment of the role itself, then ultimately they're
going to be aimlessly walking around and not doing these things and not leading how they

should be leading, I guess, overall.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I mean, do you, how, what's your sense of purpose, Akil?

Let me ask you, why do you do what you do?

yeah, I mean, to be honest, the first two years of business, I would say, to be honest,
longer than that.

Since I was 18, I'm 24, 25 this year, but since I was 18 up to about 22, 23, it was just
money driven, to be honest with you.

It was just, that's what I want.

I don't really care about anything else.

Let me just make as much money as possible.

The last year and a half or so, it's, know, reached certain financial goals and...

I'm sure everyone can agree to this, when you have this target in your head, you reach it,
you feel the exact same as you were before, if that makes sense, and then it's like, oh,

let me extend the goal further.

And so I was realizing, okay, this actually isn't a probably sustainable way to measure my
worth, let's say, or my purpose.

So what does that actually look like?

And so now I'm actually in a season of, actually like family, it's been the biggest thing
for me recently.

So for me, I'm getting married and stuff this year and like focusing on that side of
things.

And so for me, it's aligning, okay, how do I want the family to be in the next kind of
five to 10 years?

And then what do I need to actually achieve to get us to that point?

And so that achievement isn't just financial, it's also, you know, the health side of
things and all these other things come into play.

But it's looking through the lens of how can I serve like a family rather than just
financially myself, if that makes sense.

So it's a work in progress, but that's where I'm at right now.

Thank you very much.

Yeah.

I you mentioned fa I've mentioned family is important to me.

I've got a large family.

We've got four grandchildren as well that have come in the last few years.

So the, know, it's, it's an amazing thing.

And one of the things that has struck me more in the last year than ever is how important
my wife is in my business.

success.

I mean, she's a director of my company, but, I don't mean that is, I mean, strength over
we've been married 32 years and she was my childhood sweetheart as well.

We met when we were mid teenagers and if I'd known back then, or like if I could speak to
my 18 year old self, would be like you are choosing a person here who's going to make your

life better and amazing.

and it's going to help you to, be the best person that you can be.

And I kind of had a sense of that as a 16 year old, that she was a good person to be
around.

really liked her.

I get married, you know, we got married at 21 and that's the best decision I've made.

Yeah.

So we've talked about business decisions today, but like that partnership with my wife is
the most important thing for me.

And the

power of that and making that relationship work over that years because it hasn't, it's
not just happened by accident.

Both of us are really working hard to make that relationship work.

That sounds like a chore, sorry.

It's a really enjoyable work is to make that relationship work, but it's not been without
its challenges.

You know, we, one of our children, for example, our youngest daughter died when she was
born and you know, that trauma and

tragedy and all of those things were something that could have divided us.

made us stronger.

And that's part of that recognition of we're to have tough times.

We've had some business challenges.

We've had some ups and we've had a lot of downs as well as ups financially and these types
of things.

The 2009 financial crisis hit the business.

The business I was running in partnership pretty hard.

and yeah, lots of other side elements to that, you know, so we've been through our ups and
our downs together and, you know, sorry, I'm on a bit of a soap box here, but that I can't

emphasize enough.

You know, your choice of marriage partner is such a great thing to enjoy your life with.

And I love the fact that you're focusing on family and, and, and recognizing the important
role that plays as well as your,

Commercial success.

Yeah, no, definitely.

And, you know, I've always wanted to understand more, you know, when an entrepreneur
obviously has this family they're managing and these relationships, and as you said,

you've been through so many ups and downs with it that you had to power through together.

How did you balance the business side of things and then the relationship side and the
family side of things?

Because sometimes, right, it's they're both demanding of you and it's being able to do
both of them because they both need to like survive.

But you can't always do both at the same time, right?

How have you managed that over the years through these ups and downs that you mentioned?

Yeah, there's a few things that come to mind.

One is, I think maybe even challenging the word balance and bringing the word blend and
trying to blend in that blend those things together.

I don't think, and there are some people that will achieve, let's call it a 50 50 balance,
but I think it maybe sends out the wrong message that that is the, that's what is the

right solution.

We are, you are, yeah, you are going to be spending a lot of time at work.

and it may not be as equal as the time you spend with your family.

Are you going to blend your family into that work as best you can?

And of course, if you're a business owner, that's arguably a little bit easier to do.

So blend is the first thing is blending that.

The second is making sure you're putting in those times and places where you are
connecting.

So dinner time was a really important part for our family as much as we can.

We'll have dinner together.

It's still the same.

I've got two children still at home.

They're adults, but they're still at home.

know, having dinner together with our is an important aspect wherever we can make that
work.

And then one of the things I learned through hard knocks really when so it's a similar
time that I spoke to before when I like early thirties, I was doing a lot quite a lot more

travel for the work I was doing.

So in the UK and across Europe.

And then into international, even more international work into Asia and these types of
things.

So I was away a lot more.

And I was also had a leadership role in the community.

So part of a faith group and I was the local let's call it pasta.

So I was running a congregation.

Married five children fairly early on in my career and trying to make all of those things
work.

So I've got this sort of faith family, faith community that I'm

basically the head of in our local area.

And yeah, so that was a really tricky time in terms of juggling those things.

And then I've got a large family.

I've got obviously had parents and lots of siblings and all those kinds of things and
relationships, friends that I want to keep in contact with.

So it's not just the family.

There's other relationships too.

And one of the things that I found that I was doing was making decisions without proper
consultation with my wife.

and just assuming because we had a nice relationship that she would accept that if I got
an emergency call that a family was in distress, they needed my help.

I could just kind of drop everything and do that.

Now she would be very supportive of that one level, but she needed to be involved in that
decision making.

we established in a weekly planning session.

Sounds very formal, but it really helped us to make sure we're on the same page because
that crisis moment.

was more easy to handle if other things were more stable and known throughout the week
rather than assuming that we knew where each other would be, what we were doing.

So we would get together on a weekly basis and plan out, right?

What's happening?

Where are you going to be?

Where am I going to be?

Okay.

So anything that then came up as an ad hoc request, it was a little bit easier to just
call and say, Hey, I know we had this plan or, or, you know, this evening was free.

I've just been asked to go and help somebody, you know,

move house or to fix a family problem or something like that and she'd be fine because
other things were known and we can move those around.

So again, that communication with my wife was a really important lesson in my late 20s,
early 30s.

Yeah, definitely.

And do you know what?

It's quite interesting because me and my fiance seem to be wife.

were talking about this, like what do we want to add into the process of things?

And it does sound formal, right?

Meeting every week or every month to go through whatever.

It's like every month, right?

Sitting down, going through the finances and adding all to our track and make sure we're
on point for all these different things and we're aligned on whatever we're going to be

doing.

And then also planning out the year, right?

So what kind of health achievements do you want to have?

Both of us individually and then also together and all these different things as well.

And again, it does sound like a formal process, but I think taking that time to sit down
and connect on that level and really understand where people want to go as well, right?

Is that then you can go there together.

I think a lot of the times, you know, a lot of people might start to separate because they
don't sit down and have that communication, but you need to bake in that communication as,

as regular as you can to make sure you're aligned on these things, as you said.

And even on a weekly basis, understanding, you know, what are people's schedules, what
people are going to be working on.

and then you can have that flexibility as well.

Absolutely.

And then the last thing I'd say on this in terms of this blending family is be quick to
apologize.

Be quick to say sorry.

Be quick to forgive, you know, and recognize people are trying to do their best, you know,
within the family environment.

And I think that's paid off a lot as well.

I had to do that yesterday as an example, like made a judgment call that was not on, not.

to properly, I want to, should have been a conversation I had more deeply with my wife and
I didn't and, and, realize quite quickly that was the case again.

Sorry.

That was, that was a poor decision.

it was something, you know, we don't have to consult on everything, but there are certain
things that are really helpful that we do.

And, I made a judgment call that, was wrong.

Quick, quickly acknowledge it, move on.

You know, it's, it's a really important part of making the marriage work.

Yeah, it's an interesting point as well, because I think as business owners and
entrepreneurs, right, is, everyone always says ego is the enemy, but in some regard, you

need to have a bit of an ego with business, I think, overall, right?

If you want to succeed and beat other people, right, you need to have that ego there.

But it's being able to drop the ego in certain situations, it's still a skill that I'm
learning to try and do, because it is very difficult to be able to do that in the moment

sometimes and drop that ego and allow, you know, that communication, that conversation to
be had.

But yeah.

Yeah, there's great power in humility and leadership.

It's again, it's probably tied a little bit to the listening piece I was talking about
earlier, but I think that's a really good point.

It's kind of this ego driven league leader without that reflective cycle, I think can do a
lot of damage in organizations and, they're not building up a, let's call it a franchise

where people are really engaged and feel empowered.

They've, they've got quite a lot of followers.

but perhaps that are not fully utilizing their full brain power in the tasks that they're
doing because they're scared of getting it wrong or they're just following orders.

Yeah, definitely.

So changing a tune a little bit, I do wanna talk a little bit about kind of AI technology
and how this is impacting your industry today and how you foresee it impacting the

industry as well over the next five years and some things that you're working on maybe in
that space as well to kind of future-proof yourself with these changes.

So I'll throw it over to you, like what you guys working on in that realm and how you
preparing for this big change in technology that we're seeing.

Yeah, it is helping us with, for example, design ideas.

And so when we're designing experiences and workshops and this type of thing, we can put
it out to AI just to kind of generate some other approaches and just keeping our creative

spirit a little bit more alive.

And

In the coaching space, I am convinced that the quality of that human to human interaction
will never be replaced if we're good at what we're doing.

There's something that AI can still, I mean, it's amazing what it does in terms of being
able to interpret, summarize and, and the likes, but looking somebody in the eye, like

we're doing now, like if you, if I know you're a, let's call it a robot.

Like, where's the fun in this conversation?

Where's the fulfillment?

We are social creatures.

There's something about feeling what someone else is feeling and particularly in a
coaching perspective, picking up on those underlying terms.

know AI is getting better and better at that for sure.

But again, knowing that there's another human that's actually responding to that is
something really powerful.

So I think it will, it will serve its purpose in a coaching space.

in terms of maybe some preliminary self coaching methodologies that enhance somebody's
ability to ask themselves some really challenging questions and then maybe even preparing

somebody for a more detailed conversation with that human to human coach.

I think some of that servicing can be done in that space and to be done well.

But I don't I'm I'm I this isn't some hubris but I'm absolutely sure that

It will not replace that human to human interaction.

think we've seen it over COVID, for example, that, yeah, we can operate over Zoom and
Teams and a lot of remote working, but there's real value when you come back and meet with

someone in person.

And yeah, it might be more efficient to meet via Teams and some global aspects need to be
done over Zoom and these other platforms.

But there is something really powerful getting that

leadership team in a room together and having a coffee together and eating a donut and
actually sensing what's going on for people that's very, it's a lot more challenging to do

through a rectangle on a monitor.

So I see it's going to continue to enhance the work that we're doing.

We use it as a tool just like we use many much other technology for to benefit the work
that we do like

teams, et cetera.

But I'm not fearful of it.

I see it as a real additive, positive thing that will help enhance the work that we do and
not replace the work that we do.

think that's a great take and I'm in agreement with that.

I think, as you said, right, you can have this hybrid approach where certain parts of the
service, yes, it can really help, as you said, self coaching, all these different

elements, but that human to human contact, especially for our generations, where we
weren't raised with AI, like as little kids or anything like that, we're gonna always have

a bit of a struggle connecting with AI on that deep personal level, as you mentioned.

But then...

The interesting argument against that is these upcoming generations who are being raised
with AI, will they in 20 years time be able to actually really connect with AI and

actually have conversations which does shape them and does open up some interesting
conversations even on an AI to human level.

So it'll be interesting to see how that evolves over the next 20 years or so.

But I think for sure, our generations definitely, we're always gonna need that human to
human contact.

And from a business point of view, I think as more and more people automate and use AI in
all their services, the ones that don't will have that unique selling point eventually

where you come in and you actually have this human to human approach rather than just some
system or AI.

And that can make you then stand out against the rest of the businesses in the space.

Yeah, I think what that triggers for me is like 25 years ago when I was doing development
programs, most people will be able to resource the content through reading a book or maybe

going to an event and hearing somebody speak.

They didn't have full access to YouTube like we have today and podcasts and all these
kinds of things.

The Internet's made knowledge a lot more accessible and there's still people may not
access it, but it's there.

You know, you can

What makes a great leader?

can type that in.

You'll get a really good response and some really good video content within half, you
know, fractions of a second.

You're there and you've, you're, you've got access to the best universities in the world.

So knowledge I learned fairly soon as the internet come through that actually, for
example, the development programs that we run, there's a little bit of imparting

knowledge, but it's actually, how do you create an experience?

So we are all about creating learning experiences, not knowledge dumps.

Mmm, yeah.

and experience what it feels like to have a difficult conversation or to lead a team.

And so we use a lot of practical experiential learning for them to have that live
experience and feel what it feels like to have a disappointment or to have the success in

having those conversations.

And, and it's less about pouring in content.

You might need to do that as pre-work or a pre-read.

But it's right.

How do we get people talking together about how we make this work in an organization and
making those connections stronger?

And that's that we've seen great success with that.

Clearly, the still have a base of good theoretical knowledge that this is being sat on.

But it's not about, hey, I'm the person that has all the knowledge and I'm imparting that
to you as a participant or a learner on this workshop.

It's like we're working on this together.

And I'm learning too, as a facilitator of this space, but how do we get this to help us to
be more effective at what we do on a day-to-day basis?

Not just what we know, but what we can actually do is, and that knowing doing gap is
really what we're trying to close when we're designing the learning experiences that we

provide for our clients.

Yeah, very cool.

So one of the final questions we always ask guests on the show is if you can go back to 18
year old self and it can only take three things with you, three lessons with you, whether

it's some business knowledge, philosophical knowledge, some mindset knowledge, whatever,
what would those three lessons be and why would it be those three things?

All right.

I think I've touched on this with quite a big soap box already with the first one is
definitely my 18 year old self is your girlfriend is going to make an amazing wife and she

is going to be the best partner to help you thrive.

So no, make the most of that.

That would be the, that would be one number one.

second would be you are leading.

You are leading you've, you actually have already demonstrated a lot of leadership.

skills and talents already and you're you know as working in your school and with your
family and and the wider group you are leading and celebrate that and enjoy it and realize

that you're going to bring some great leadership to your life and to other people's lives
and then the third point would be say Simon read more read more books learning

is an amazing thing and unlearning is also an amazing thing.

And so really embrace that some more is not just experiences, but actually look into what
other people are thinking and expressing in the way that they write stuff down.

The classics as well as the nonfiction stuff.

More episodes

Chapters

What is Visionary Voices Podcast?