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Why do you keep ending up in friendships that drain you? In this conversation, clinical psychologist, hypnotherapist and bestselling author Eilat Aviram breaks down the difference between a friend who is having a bad day and a friend who is actually toxic for your nervous system.
Eilat introduces her concept of self-loving decision-making and walks Sadaf through the exact body cues that signal an unsafe relationship, the chilling study that shows how predators pick their victims, the bear vs snake types of narcissist, and the one boundary test that quietly reveals whether someone in your life can be trusted.
If you have ever moved cities and struggled to find your people, if you have ever been called “sensitive” for naming something that hurt, or if you suspect you might be the toxic friend, this episode gives you both the language and the scripts.
What you will learn
• Why a toxic friendship is one you keep walking away from feeling smaller, consistently
• The 'pamphlet' people hand you when you first meet — and why we ignore it
• What a real clinical narcissist looks like, and the bear vs snake test
• A study showing how psychopaths identify empaths in under a minute (and what protected the ones who weren't picked)
• How over-giving can turn a perfectly good friendship into a poisonous one
• The single sneaky test that reveals whether someone in your life is actually safe
• The exact words to use when you've been hurt but didn't have the words in the moment
• Why 'if I loved myself, what would I choose to do now?' is the most useful question you can carry in your pocket
Memorable quotes
• “Is it toxic, or is it a tonic?”
• “People come with a pamphlet. We read it, then we completely ignore it.”
• “Watch how someone treats children, waiters, dogs — anyone they think is less than them.”
• “You are 100% responsible for your 50% of the relationship.”
• “You can make good relationships toxic if you keep giving.”
• “Discomfort is your system telling you to listen. Don't override it.”
• “If I loved myself, what would I choose to do now?”
• “There is only one world expert on you, and that is you.”
• “Catastrophic capitalism benefits from us not valuing ourselves.”
About Eilat Aviram
Eilat Aviram is a clinical psychologist, hypnotherapist, energy healing teacher and bestselling author whose work on self-loving decision-making has helped thousands of people reconnect with their inner truth. She runs CPD-accredited courses for healthcare practitioners and has worked with clients for almost 30 years.
- (00:00) - Intro
- (01:40) - Why do we stay in toxic relationships?
- (02:55) - What’s the point of a friendship?
- (04:25) - Is it really toxic or am I just triggered?
- (06:58) - Is the friendship fixable?
- (10:01) - What if I’m the toxic one?
- (11:13) - What your nervous system knows before you do
- (15:07) - People come with a pamphlet
- (17:17) - How psychopaths choose their victims
- (19:32) - Victims ignore the warning signs
- (22:25) - How to make self loving choices in relationships
- (23:29) - Conflicting Needs: when you love someone who drains you
- (25:22) - How you can turn a good friendship toxic
- (29:06) - The friendship tango - reversing a toxic dynamic
- (30:07) - The boundary test in a friendship
- (34:08) - Why a friend becomes toxic or mean
- (35:05) - Two types of narcissists: the bear and the snake
- (36:47) - Why did I befriend toxic people?
- (37:56) - The metaphysical perspective on toxic friendships (Energy Vampires)
- (42:57) - Subtle toxicity and reclaiming your power
- (44:48) - Discomfort is a gift
- (48:03) - Practical scripts for dealing with toxicity
- (53:03) - Toxic friends are teachers
- (54:50) - Eilat’s childhood and journey to self-love
- (58:35) - Capitalism doesn’t want you to love yourself
- (59:39) - Outro
Creators and Guests
Host
Sadaf Vahedna
Sadaf Vahedna produces and hosts Alt|Life. Her background is in building businesses and community initiatives, and her current focus is the inner architecture of change—nervous system, meaning, relationships, and the invisible forces that shape how we live. She approaches each episode as a real inquiry: curious, rigorous, and open to mystery—without losing discernment.
Editor
Simbarashe Nyahwa
Simbarashe Nyahwa is a filmmaker and media analyst with over four years of experience in the TV and Film Industry. Specializing in producing and post-production, he has honed his expertise across various roles, including content curation, editing, and production management. Simbarashe holds a professional certificate in Film and Television Production from Multichoice Talent Factory and a B.A (Hons) in Media and Cultural Studies from Great Zimbabwe University. He is currently pursuing an M.A. in Film and Television Studies at the University of Cape Town. Throughout his career, Simbarashe has worked on numerous film and TV productions, most notably as an EPK producer for Chisara Series (2021). He has also contributed his skills as a VFX supervisor, line producer, and assistant editor for projects across various platforms, for the Multichoice Talent Factory. Simbarashe is passionate about the intersection of media, culture, and storytelling, continuously pushing the boundaries of film production in Africa. His commitment to his craft has earned him recognition in programs such as the One World Media Fellowship and the ‘Future of Film’ Africa initiative.
What is Alt|Life ?
Alt|Life is a podcast for those seeking to experience an alternate reality and break free from the chains of conventional thinking. Hosted by Sadaf Vahedna, this podcast challenges the limitations of mainstream education and knowledge, diving into realms that are both mystical and scientific. Each episode offers mind-blowing insights and discussions that will make you rethink your understanding of the world. Join Sadaf on her exploration as she delves into psychology, physics, philosophy, and spirituality. Through engaging conversations with experts and visionaries, Alt|Life uncovers the hidden truths and extraordinary possibilities that lie beyond the ordinary. Whether you're curious about the unknown or eager to expand your perspective, Alt|Life invites you to journey beyond the familiar and embrace the transformative power of an open mind.
Sadaf: Friendship is supposed to
feel safe, nourishing, grounding.
But what happens when a friendship starts
leaving you feeling anxious, drained,
insecure, or even ashamed of yourself?
Eilat Aviram: If you are consistently
walking away from time with a
particular person, feeling low-
Sadaf: In a world where everyone
online is suddenly a narcissist and
every uncomfortable interaction is
labeled as toxic, how do we actually
know the difference between a
genuinely unhealthy relationship and a
relationship that's simply triggering
something unresolved inside of us?
Eilat Aviram: Well,
discomfort is a massive
Sadaf: gift.
Is your body responding?
In this episode, I interview clinical
psychologist, hypnotherapist, energy
healing teacher, and bestselling
author, Eilat Aviram, whose work on
self-love has helped thousands of
people reconnect with their inner truth.
Eilat Aviram: When you feel reluctance
or resentment, pay attention.
Sadaf: We explored toxic friendships
through the lens of the nervous
system, trauma, boundaries,
self-trust, and emotional patterns.
We talk about why some people repeatedly
find themselves in painful dynamics, why
empaths often override their instincts,
how narcissistic dynamics actually work,
and why discomfort may be one of the
most important signals our body gives us.
This episode is about learning
how to listen to yourself again.
Because as Eilat says,
the real question is…
Eilat Aviram: If I loved myself,
what would I choose to do now?
Sadaf: You're the self-love lady.
I wanna ask you about toxic relationships,
particularly friendships, and w- what is
happening inside me or inside a person
when we are choosing to keep or engage in
a relationship that we perceive as toxic?
Eilat Aviram: I think the beautiful thing
you're saying that I'm the self-love
lady is because I teach self-love, right?
And I teach self-loving decision-making.
And if you're making decisions that are
leading to situations that you're not
happy with or that leave you feeling
used or not seen or just unhappy, it's
an actual skill set to make choices.
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: And it's a skill
set to have relationships, and
it's a skill set to self-care.
So the g- really good news is
that it's something we can learn.
And often, if you don't realize that
someone's toxic or you know someone's
toxic but you choose to stay, you probably
have learned that skill set somewhere.
Sadaf: What would you say
is a toxic friendship?
Eilat Aviram: But if you think
about a friendship, what is
the point of a friendship?
It's supposed to be a mutually
satisfying, beneficial experience, right?
And so if you are consistently, not
sometimes, consistently walking away
from time with a particular person
feeling low, feeling, um, like you've
been judged, feeling insecure, if
you, you, you feel like your energy's
just been drained, if you're doubting
yourself, all of those are signs that
that relationship is not healthy for you.
'Cause think of the word toxic.
It means poisonous, right?
Mm-hmm.
So if something is poisonous for you,
you will have some sort of effects.
So you really do need… Is it
p- is it toxic, or is it a tonic?
Sadaf: Okay, so this is where I
struggle a little bit because how do
I know that it's not my own stuff?
Like, let's say I have an issue with my
body image, and I'm insecure about…
I th- I perceive myself to be fat,
and then I think when somebody else
is talking about body image stuff-
Mm … that they are referring to me.
So it's a direct attack on me when maybe
the other person doesn't mean that at all,
and I walk away from that interaction-
Eilat Aviram: Mm
…
Sadaf: feeling like they made a dig at
me when it had nothing to do with me.
It was just their own stuff.
Eilat Aviram: So how do you know
when it's toxic, and how do you know
when it's just triggering for you?
Sadaf: Yes.
Eilat Aviram: I think you
probably see toxic friends will
be toxic across the board usually.
Generally, you'll be able to
identify somebody as toxic in a
friendship or, uh, as a boss or
as a parent or as your sibling or
as a, as a romantic relationship.
Usually it will be somebody who
is not very considerate of you.
Um, they'll be much more
involved with themselves.
They will probably make much of the
conversation either about themselves, or
if it's about you, there'll be an edge
of they're putting you down, they're
judging you, they're baiting you.
This is quite a general thing.
Obviously, it gets quite subtle.
If other people don't find that person
upsetting or toxic, then there's
definitely something for you to look at
and go, "What is it about this person
that triggers me?" And I think that's
the main question, anyway, that you
and I are gonna be discussing, because,
uh, I'm saying that I teach self-loving
decision-making, which means that you're
always needing to pause in the moment of
any choice you make, and that choice can
be, do I feel like seeing this person?
Do I wanna leave early?
Do I still wanna be
friends with this person?
You do need to check in with yourself.
At the end of the day, what's toxic
or not toxic for you, you are, are
the only one who can know that.
Is there ever an
Sadaf: answer that goes something
like, well, this is not necessarily
a toxic relationship or a toxic
friendship, it's just a friendship
where people are interacting or…
and people are being people, and it's just
an imperfect one, because no friendships
or relationships are ever perfect.
Mm. And how do I know that it's
one where I might be losing
out by labeling it toxic?
Mm. I feel like walking
away is a very easy answer.
It's an easy and a difficult answer.
It's difficult because, you know,
it's obviously painful, and you
did see something in the person
that you wanted to be friends with.
Eilat Aviram: Mm.
Sadaf: Um, but it's also easy, because
it, it doesn't acknowledge that, uh, the
other person is human, and you are human,
and no relationships are gonna be perfect.
Eilat Aviram: True.
Sadaf: And it's so easy to… I see
that on Instagram so much, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Like, you just, like, label,
oh, like, oh, I'm… Oh, this
is the year I'm gonna walk away.
But if you walk away from
everyone, then you're not gonna
have anyone, any friends left.
Eilat Aviram: Yeah.
Sadaf: So how do I know that
it's really a toxic relationship?
I mean, you did, you did describe that,
but a, a bit more, like, in the nuance,
or whether it's a friendship that I
want to maybe work on and, um, and fix.
Eilat Aviram: You know what I love
about what you're saying, and the way
that you're asking it, and you haven't
said it explicitly, r- maybe you did,
but I feel like what you're asking is,
"If I walk away, I'm also giving up an
opportunity for self-development," right?
If you're with a situation or a person
who triggers you, and it really is your
issue, like you were speaking about
the weight thing- If you always avoid
anything that mentions your weight, you're
going to be avoiding a lot of stuff.
Mm. And you're never going to have
the opportunity to heal a place that's
obviously a sensitive area for you.
So if you are a short, you know- Mm
… uh, or, um, height challenged human, and
you hate short jokes or you hate being
around people who make you feel shorter,
you're gonna be avoiding a lot of people.
Um, if you're insecure about any part
of yourself, you, you're going to
land up avoiding things as opposed
to dealing with them and growing and
becoming more whole and stronger.
So I think in a way, a short answer
to your complex question is you're
not looking for once-off instances.
If your friend's having a bad day or if
they've lost their parent and they're
having a patch where they're really in a
funk and they don't have capacity to help
you, or they're overwhelmed with work, or
they have financial stress and they treat
you not as considerately as you'd like, or
they're quite snappy with you during that
period of time, that's just relationships.
Mm. That's humans being humans.
But if you generally still feel loving
of the person and you understand
they're in a tough patch, that's fine
and that's something to work through.
But what you're looking for is patterns.
Mm. If somebody consistently treats you
in a derisive way, they consistently bait
you, you find out that they're speaking
behind your back, they're saying stuff
behind you that they wouldn't say to your
face, um, you try and have conversations
to resolve an issue with them and they
won't talk to you or they, they make you
feel like you're crazy, they gaslight you.
They, "No, there's nothing wrong. No,
you're just imagining it. You must be
having a bad day." When you consistently
walk away from that person feeling not
good, that we could define as toxic.
And I also don't think it's so…
We should be so quick to jump and
go, "This is toxic," and label it.
It's just this maybe, excuse me,
maybe a kinder way of saying it
is, "This is not good for me."
Sadaf: Mm.
"
Eilat Aviram: This is not serving me.
This is not-" Yeah … "nourishing me,
therefore I will remove myself from it."
Not, "You're toxic, I'm gonna ghost you."
Sadaf: Or, "I'm gonna cancel you."
Eilat Aviram: Yeah.
Sadaf: Yeah.
Eilat Aviram: Yeah.
That's, that's toxic in itself.
Sadaf: Yes, that's true.
Well, that actually leads me to what
I… My next question, which was how
do I avoid being the toxic friend?
Eilat Aviram: Friendship
is a mutual thing.
It's a, it's a give/take.
It's a you and me.
You get to talk, and I get to talk.
I ask you how you are,
you ask me how I am.
I actually care about
what you're saying to me.
You care about what I'm saying to you.
If you find that you are bored with
what somebody's saying, and you don't
really care, and you're asking them
out of obligation or politeness, but
actually you're sort of going, "Yawn,
yawn," inside, you have to ask yourself
what you're doing with that person.
I think probably if you are being
the toxic one, I would imagine
that you feel quite unsatisfied
with the relationship, too.
When we perceive danger, we get tense.
So you asked about what is
the body actually showing us.
The autonomic nervous system goes into
fight/flight, and it does it in degrees.
So when we say the words like danger in a
relationship, it can sound a bit extreme.
Or if I'm speaking about fight/flight
and we're talking about a friendship,
it, it does sound a little bit severe.
But your body does respond in
various degrees to danger, and
the danger could be, "I, I… That
person just said something mean.
That was nasty," or, "I feel judged," or,
"I don't feel emotionally safe right now."
Your nervous system will
behave like that buck.
So your skin will tighten.
Your breathing will
become a little shallower.
Your muscles, your muscles will tighten.
You'll become hyperalert.
Essentially, your body's preparing
to either fight off something
or run away from it or freeze
if things are really bad.
You know that feeling where you're
like, "Ugh, I don't-" Yeah … actually
know what to do or what to say right
now." Sometimes that's your body that
actually gone into a freeze state.
So if you are attuned to your body,
you can pick up those signs, and we
will normally feel it as, "Oh, I'm
feeling a bit uncomfortable," or those
signs of stress or anxiety or tension.
Or the, "Oh, I'm feeling a bit hot.
Ooh, there's no air in here." Um, "Oh,
this… I'm feeling uncomfortable.
Something about this is making me
uncomfortable." So we do… Our
bodies do pick it up quite quickly,
and it is our nervous system giving
us a signal that something about
the situation is not completely safe
Sadaf: That's amazing, except
what if I have social anxiety?
Eilat Aviram: Well, then it's your
system telling you that anytime
you're around people- People,
that's not safe … unsafe.
Okay.
That you perceive it as unsafe.
So again, it's that perception thing
of what's okay for you might not be
okay- Right … for someone else.
Yeah.
But so for you, social
situations might be- Mm.
Sadaf: Yes
…
Eilat Aviram: you know, and
your fight/flight kicks in.
Um, for someone else, they'd
be completely relaxed.
Sadaf: If I am with someone who is
making me feel this way, I wonder what is
going on for the other person that they
are behaving this way, and I wonder if
just becoming curious about that might,
um, ease the tension a little bit and
dissolve some of that poison or toxicity
Eilat Aviram: It depends
Sadaf: Okay
Eilat Aviram: Classic psychologist answer.
Yes.
It depends Yeah … it's
all about the context.
If that person tends towards narcissism,
clinical narcissism, what I mean by that
is it's all about them, then you asking
them more about them is just going to make
the situation more of what it already is.
Does that make sense?
Sadaf: Yes.
Eilat Aviram: If the other person
is behaving that way because
something's wrong, they're upset…
Sorry.
That's okay.
If they're upset, if something's been
happening in their life and you are able
to… Or if they have social anxiety,
and you're able to ease them into feeling
more comfortable, then it will help.
But I again want to say this, this, what
this conversation isn't about a once-off
situation where you're with someone
and it makes you feel uncomfortable.
Although, if you feel properly
uncomfortable with someone and the
first time you meet them, you should
probably take that very seriously.
Never, ever override that or ignore that.
I'll come back to that just now
if we need to, because there's
some amazing studies about that.
What we're looking for is patterns.
If somebody consistently makes you
feel that way, if somebody always
behaves that way or almost always,
that's the thing that's problematic.
Not once off here and there,
that's just, just humans.
Does that make… Is
Sadaf: that- Yes, yes, absolutely.
I think, uh, what you said about when
you meet somebody the first time and
you feel uncomfortable, that's really
interesting, 'cause I've had a few
friendships where the first time I met
the person, I was like, "Ooh, I don't know
if I wanna be friends with this person,"
or, "I need to beware of this person."
Mm. And then subsequently we went
on to be very good friends, but the
friendship, in all instances, there
weren't many, but in all instances ended.
Eilat Aviram: Oh.
Sadaf: And my initial impression of
the person was- Correct … correct.
Eilat Aviram: So I like to say
that people come with a pamphlet.
People arrive with… And
they hand you a pamphlet.
"This is who I am. This is how I am.
These are the problems you and I are
going to have." People do this with,
um, romantic relationships all the
time, and I always ask questions in my
therapy space when somebody says they've
met someone and they're obviously,
you know, excited about this person.
I ask them a lot of questions right at
the start, because we get the pamphlet at
the beginning, I'll explain what I mean
in a moment, and we read the pamphlet,
and then we completely ignore it, and
we carry on as though we never got the
information I like to ask people right
at the start, "What do you foresee the
problems with this relationship might be?"
Sadaf: Oh, so-
Eilat Aviram: And they are so accurate.
They can tell me right at the
start, "Oh, I think… I don't know.
I'm gonna make stuff up.
I think his mother might be an issue.
I think she's a little bit clingy.
Uh, I, I think they, they won't get
along with my friends." They, they
can tell you right at the beginning,
and then they go forward anyway.
They have the whole relationship, and
it ends for the reasons they identify
at the beginning, like what you've
just said about the friendships.
Sadaf: And I guess the same thing
applies to friendships as well.
Eilat Aviram: 100%.
You know.
You do know, and this
is, this is what I teach.
This is my huge thing because self-loving
decision-making is about trusting
what you know, and this whole toxic
friendship, relationship conversation
is about trusting what you know.
It really is.
I mentioned just now there's really
interesting research on people picking
up something about someone else.
In a book called What We Can Learn
from Psychopaths, so if anyone wants
to follow up on that, go ahead.
They quoted this study where they
wanted to see if psychopaths are
identifiable, if we can pick up if
there's somebody, you know, um, in
our space that has that tendency.
But to begin with, they were interested
in how psychopaths pick their victims.
Why do they choose that
person and not that person?
Why could this person walk right
past, but that one will be targeted?
And so they did a quite horrifying
study, which is that they collected a
group of… They did it in two parts.
They collected, um, convicted psychopaths,
and they asked a whole lot of, uh, regular
folk to walk down a corridor, and they
videoed them walking down a corridor.
Then they showed those videos to
the convicted psychopaths, people
who are, like, very clinically and
criminally psychopathic, and they
asked them to identify which of
those people they would victimize.
Who would they pick as a victim?
With disturbing accuracy, they picked the
people who have trauma in their history.
Sadaf: Wow.
Okay, but I have a question there, because
don't we all have trauma in our history?
Eilat Aviram: They picked people who
would be over-empathic, who would not
be able to set boundaries very well,
who would not listen to themselves.
Sadaf: Wow.
Eilat Aviram: So they did it with
the clinical, uh, psychopaths and
saw that they are very accurate.
Then they also did it
with university students.
They assessed people to see people
who tend towards, um, narcissistic or
particularly, um, psychopathic tendencies.
So if they had traits of that, they
asked those people also to watch videos.
They did the same thing, and
they were also very accurate.
Sadaf: Hmm.
Eilat Aviram: So then they became
curious, and they thought, "Well, can the
victims, the empaths, can they recognize
a psychopath if they met them?" Hmm.
And the answer was yes, and it's in
response to your question about the body.
The body recognized it.
There is something in our brain
that registers some level of
interactive relationship danger.
They had the hairs at the
back of their necks going up.
They got the goosebumps.
They had a feeling of
discomfort and tension, like
they just wanted to pull away.
Those were real, and they were accurate
That's why I wanted to
come back to this- Oh my
Sadaf: god … because it's so
important Yeah, that's so important.
But, like, tell me, is it something
about trauma that makes you ignore that?
And maybe the reason that empaths
get into these relationships with
psychopaths is because everybody
else is like, "Whoa, that's a
psychopath. I should stay away." Yeah.
But the empath is like, "Oh, I'm
sure they're just nice people and-"
Eilat Aviram: Or, "Ah,
they had a hard childhood.
Aw."
Sadaf: That
Eilat Aviram: person… I'm that person.
Yeah.
Sadaf: I'm literally that person.
Eilat Aviram: I'm
Sadaf: like, "You know,
nobody's evil, and you should-"
Eilat Aviram: Yeah.
"… yes, you should always give them a
chance." Really, really important.
Also, in, in line with this, how do you
know if somebody is or is not toxic?
Watch somebody's behavior;
don't listen to their words.
Often, people's words will
conflict their behavior.
They'll say something, and it sounds
so good, and you believe it because
you're a words person, and you want
to believe the best in everybody.
They speak about, uh, spiritual bypassing.
Mm. Mm. Have you heard that term?
Mm-hmm.
So, spiritual bypassing is when you see
someone's bad behavior as a human and
what they're doing, and then you say,
"Oh, but they have such potential."
Sadaf: Yes.
Eilat Aviram: And you create a bridge over
their bad behavior and their bad choices,
and you, you make excuses for them.
So, that's another way.
But if people are saying nice
things but they're behaving badly…
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: I- which one
do you give more weight to?
Mm. Their behavior.
Someone will show you.
Watch how someone treats
children, treats dogs- Yeah
treats anyone that they
think is less than them.
Watch how they talk to the
checkout person at a supermarket.
Watch how they speak to
waiters and waitresses.
Mm. That's a big cue.
If somebody is rude to a waiter
or waitress, pay attention.
Sadaf: Tangentially but related is
that what about trauma makes us that
way, that we don't listen to ourselves?
I guess this goes into the
self-love question, right?
Eilat Aviram: Yeah.
Sadaf: Yeah.
Do we stop loving ourselves
when we have trauma?
Eilat Aviram: Uh, we have to go into
my definition of self-love for that.
Sadaf: Okay.
Eilat Aviram: Because I have
a slightly unusual maybe s-
Sadaf: Yeah
…
Eilat Aviram: definition of self-love,
and I have a community, I run a
community for people to learn to
love themselves more, as you know.
And it's
The kind of people who are drawn to a
community like that are often people who
have been taught in some way to not listen
to themselves, and usually it's because it
can be severe trauma, but it can also just
be sort of a family who doesn't listen
to you or who tells you you're talking
rubbish or who doesn't have capacity to
hold you emotionally in the way you need.
Doesn't mean your family's wrong and bad,
it just means that you didn't get what
you needed to be able to trust yourself.
So my definition of self-trust
is meeting your needs.
That's it.
It's so simple, and not
something we are taught.
Sadaf: Okay.
Yeah.
Eilat Aviram: So
Sadaf: many
Eilat Aviram: questions here.
You see?
You see?
So many questions.
This is where we heat up.
Go.
Sadaf: So what if I
have conflicting needs?
I need- I know … to be friends
with this person because we have this
amazing history, and I know that-
Eilat Aviram: Mm
…
Sadaf: she can be different.
She can be lovely, and I think
you'd also see that, too, in
narcissistic relationships, right?
Like, I know that this
person can be so amazing.
Eilat Aviram: Yeah.
Sadaf: But at the same time, so I need
to have, I want, I need that person
in my life, and at the same time, I
also need to not feel judged and like
shit when I hang out with this person
Eilat Aviram: So what
I'm hearing you say is-
Sadaf: Mm
…
Eilat Aviram: you have a need
for connection and friendship.
Sadaf: Yes.
Eilat Aviram: It's not necessarily with
this person who makes you feel bad.
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: Y- you do
have conflicting needs.
You have a need to… You
have a need for harmony.
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: You have a need for respect.
You have a need for mutual
liking and mutual consideration.
Those needs are not being met.
You also have a need for companionship.
You have a need for maybe their
humor, their bubbliness, or
all the good things about them.
Those needs are being met,
but at the end of the day, we
do have a hierarchy of needs.
If you're, if you spend time with
this lively, bubbly person who
also puts you down, drains your
energy, and makes you feel insecure-
You know, are you coming out of your
engagements with this person in,
in, um, in the green or in the red?
In the black or in the red?
Are you, are you… Is it sucking you dry?
Sadaf: What is the
self-loving answer to that?
Eilat Aviram: So if self-love is
meeting your needs, then the first
thing is to be aware that you have
needs and to make them legitimate.
You are allowed to actually consider
your needs and meet them, which is
something many of us were not taught.
We were taught the opposite.
We were taught, "Put
everybody else ahead of you.
Make sure everybody's fine.
You come last.
Put your needs last." We're
taught that in our families.
We're taught that in our cultures.
We're taught that in our religions.
Mm. It's, it's how it is.
It's actually seen as something
very, um l- esteemed and laudable
if you are someone who puts
everybody else ahead of yourself.
And there can be amazing things
about that if putting other
people first is nourishing to you
Sadaf: Hmm
Eilat Aviram: But if it's coming at
your cost and you feel angry, you
feel depleted, you feel resentful,
then after a while, that's actually
going to become toxic for the
relationships- Right … you're in.
Sadaf: Okay.
Eilat Aviram: You can make good
relationships toxic if you keep giving.
If you keep ignoring your own
needs in a relationship, you're
going to become resentful.
Sadaf: Wow, I love what you're saying,
because you're saying that if I am
not loving to myself in the way that I
relate to others, then I can, just by
doing that, I can turn this perfectly
fine relationship, I can turn it toxic.
Yes.
I can make it something
that's toxic to me.
Yeah.
It's poisonous to me.
But actually, it's not the other
person who did that, it's I did that.
I did it.
Eilat Aviram: I, I often say that loving
yourself and listening to your needs
is the least selfish thing you can do.
Sadaf: Yeah.
Eilat Aviram: We're taught it's
selfish, but actually it's not.
Because also, if I'm not meeting my needs,
then I'm coming to you in our relationship
and expecting you to meet my needs for me.
Sadaf: I think it's also s- inauthentic.
You know?
It's like pretending to be okay with
something that you're not okay with.
Eilat Aviram: That's true, but
most of us are not aware of that-
Mm … 'cause that makes it sound,
like, pre, um, what do you call it?
Meditated.
Yeah.
And it's, and it's not.
Most of us are so used to
pushing ourselves aside.
We're like, "Oh, I feel uncomfortable.
Oh, never, never mind.
She's very nice.
I'm just gonna…" You
know? Uh, "He never pays.
I always pay.
Ugh, you know what?
It's fine.
I have money.
I like being generous."
Mm. But that happens…
Remember I said it's a pattern.
You've gotta watch for the patterns.
That happens again, and it happens
again, and it happens again, and there
is resentment building up in you.
When you feel reluctance or
resentment, pay attention.
That's not something to override.
It's, it's telling you that the
give/take is out of balance.
But that's not their fault.
Sadaf: Hmm.
Eilat Aviram: Your job is to
look after you, and if you're not
doing that by setting the boundary
and saying, "You know what?
This time… I always pay.
You pay this time," or, "How
about we split the bill?
I don't, I'm not happy always
having to pay," that's on you
Sadaf: Let's say something like this
has happened, because I'm sure many of
us have been in this situation where
we've been overly self-sacrificial and,
um, we've turned a relationship toxic.
Now, I've… I see this, but I wanna
fix it because I still like this person,
and I wanna reverse this dynamic.
I wanna, I wanna start from scratch.
But, you know, I don't wanna just leave
this relationship and go somewhere else
because friends are difficult to find.
I know as someone who's moved
countries and moved cities, and it's
really hard to find good friends.
And maybe I realize that, you
know, it's my fault that this
relationship is this way, and I wanna
Eilat Aviram: fix it.
Well, it's never one person.
Sadaf: Okay.
Okay.
Eilat Aviram: Like, it always
takes two to do a dance.
Sadaf: Okay.
So how… Okay, so fine.
Then how, how would, how
would I approach this?
Eilat Aviram: If you and I are dancing
a tango and I stop dancing the tango and
I start dancing a waltz, are you gonna
be able to continue dancing a tango?
No.
Your option is either to stop,
to get off the dance floor, or
to start dancing a waltz with me.
Then you'll see if you
like it or you don't.
Sadaf: But if we're doing the tango and
now suddenly I decide to do the waltz,
like, that's so jarring for you 'cause
you were like, "We're doing the tango."
Eilat Aviram: But if you're not
enjoying the tango, I'm liking this.
But if you're not enjoying the
tango and you tell me, "I don't
really like the tango," or I can
see that you're out of breath, I
can see that your ankle is hurting-
Why should you have to
continue dancing the tango?
Sadaf: I struggle with being tactful.
I, s- so if you can just tell me a
very practical way that someone would
approach this, um How would I approach
my friend to start doing the waltz now?
Eilat Aviram: Okay, so just on a very
kind of let's stay with the tango on
a really practical level- Yeah … if
you're dancing a tango and you suddenly
stop, that would be weird and rude and-
Yes … potentially trip the other person.
Yes, yes, yes.
And make them feel like an idiot,
'cause they'll still be dancing the
tango.
And then the pressure…
Yeah.
And you're like just looking at them.
Um, ideally you would say to them, "At the
end of this number, I- I've had enough.
I need, I need a break.
I'm happy to continue dancing a
waltz if you want to, but otherwise I
need to take a break from the tango.
I've realized I don't enjoy a tango.
I prefer less dramatic dancing."
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: Um, that person has
a choice of how they want to react.
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: They can shame you.
You see, that's, that's where you'll see a
narcissist or an, or toxicity coming out.
Mm. Because if you set a boundary, this is
a very, very important point by the way.
You were asking me how do you recognize.
W- a way to test, if you
need to test a friend- Mm
if you're wondering, listening to
this and you're thinking, "I wonder
if that relationship is toxic?" Mm.
The way to test it neatly is to set
a boundary and see how they respond.
So when they ask you for
something, not something silly.
Do it properly.
Yeah.
If it's really, you say, "No, I, I
don't want to," or, "I don't want to
pay," or, "I want to stop doing bowling.
I'd rather go to a movie."
And watch how they respond.
Mm. If they are able to work
with you and accommodate you-
Mm … m- that's not toxic.
But when we're leaning towards clinical-
Sadaf: Mm
…
Eilat Aviram: narcissism-
Mm … and clinical psychopathology-
Sadaf: Mm
…
Eilat Aviram: um, th- that's not s- that
person's gonna say, they'll shame you.
"Why would you do that?
You're always letting me down." Mm.
Uh, "You just want it to be your way.
No, I don't, I don't wanna do that.
I, no, I'm not gonna do
it." It's very interesting.
So it's a sneaky test for a relationship,
is to actually set a boundary
that's an honest boundary for you,
and see if they can flow with it.
If they can flow with
it, it's probably safe.
Sadaf: Yeah.
Eilat Aviram: If they can't flow
with it, that's a big red flag.
Sadaf: Like, I think, like, let's say
we always meet close to my house and,
I mean, it's a silly example but- It's
Eilat Aviram: not.
It's a very real example
Sadaf: We always meet close to
my house, but then, um, if my
friend says to me, "Hey, can we
meet close to my house this time?"
And then suddenly I realize, like,
oh my God, we have always met
close to… Like, I was genuinely
un- I didn't think about it much.
Um, and yeah, sure.
Like, yeah, yeah.
Sorry.
Exactly.
Yeah, like, let's meet-
Eilat Aviram: That's then- Yeah … you're
not, you're not the toxic one there, okay?
Sadaf: Yes.
Breathe.
Yeah.
Eilat Aviram: You're okay there.
Yeah.
You were just not aware.
Yeah.
You were not aware of the give/take.
Sadaf: Yes.
Eilat Aviram: You weren't kind
of actively considerate of-
Sadaf: Yeah
…
Eilat Aviram: making sure it's
equal and, and fairly shared.
Sadaf: Yeah
Eilat Aviram: But if you were to say, "Oh
no, that's really inconvenient for me"
Sadaf: Yeah
…
Eilat Aviram: that would be a red flag
So you asked if somebody has trauma,
do they then override themselves?
Do they not listen to themselves?
Do they not love themselves?
Sadaf: Yeah.
Eilat Aviram: Trauma does predispose
people to checking out of their body.
Sadaf: Yeah.
Eilat Aviram: And when we're saying
that the signs and the alertness
comes in the body, then it would make
sense- Yes … that if your body's
telling you something but you're
sort of floating somewhere about it.
In the American South, the Southern
women, there's a classic insult.
They say, "God bless," and it
sounds so nice and so sweet.
Yeah.
It's a, it's a nasty comment.
It's kind of like, "Oh,
shame. Look at you."
Sadaf: Oh, yeah, and that would be
the South African equivalent, right?
Exactly.
Shame.
Oh, shame.
Eilat Aviram: Like, oh.
Sadaf: Shame.
Eilat Aviram: Look at her.
So-
Sadaf: Yeah
…
Eilat Aviram: you will know it because
of how your body responds to it, so don't
ignore what your body is telling you.
Sadaf: And, and why are they
doing that in that moment?
Are they doing it because it makes
them feel better about themselves?
Eilat Aviram: Well, they are
disconnected from themselves.
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: You have to be.
They're disconnected from their heart.
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: They're disconnected
from their own humanness.
Mm. And usually, I mean, one of the
core dynamics in narcissism, in clinical
narcissism, is that somebody's unable
to tolerate their internal flaws.
So if they believe some deep, deep, deep,
deep hidden part of them has a belief that
they're broken or flawed in some way, and,
uh, and they feel like if anybody was to
see that or find that out, they would die.
Not just dramatically.
It's a psychic thing that you feel
like that would be the end of you.
Sadaf: Wow.
Eilat Aviram: And so you have
to defend that at all costs.
Sadaf: Yeah.
Eilat Aviram: And so there's, there's a
certain… We, we speak about, um, two…
there's different kinds of narcissists.
You have the bear and you have the snake.
Mm. And there are other kinds, but the
bear is, you know, for the want of a
better example, someone like Trump.
Right.
All right?
You see them coming a mile away.
Or it's a bull, I think,
actually, a bull or a bear.
Both that energy of like, "Here I am.
Pay attention to me. No one else exists
but me." But then you have the snake,
who seems all right and quiet until you
step too near and then they jab you.
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: But in both instances, if
you come too close to revealing their
flaw, they have to kill the intruder,
which means they'll take you down.
They'll blame you.
They'll shame you.
They'll dismiss you.
They'll walk away from you.
They'll cancel you.
Oh.
They'll ghost you.
That makes so much sense.
So they're unable to tolerate that,
but they're not doing it consciously.
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: They…
But they are doing it.
So we need to be careful of just
because you understand why someone
is being a toxic person or hurtful
or harmful, there's understanding,
and then there's excusing.
Right.
They're not the same thing.
Mm. And if you understand why someone is
the way they are, you can compassionately
care about the fact that they are hurting,
whether or not they're aware they're
hurting, and you can still call them out.
You can still make them accountable.
You can still put them to task.
Sadaf: I think that the understanding
helps a lot because in the past when I've
been in unhealthy friendships that are
hurtful to me, I've often blamed myself.
Like-
Eilat Aviram: And they would
have helped you do that.
Sadaf: Yes.
And I've, and I've felt like,
what is it about me that allows
someone to behave this way with me?
So I'd make it very personal,
that is something wrong with me
that allows you to feel like it's
okay to say this to me, or it's…
Maybe I did something.
Eilat Aviram: W- well, you didn't
do something to deserve it.
Sadaf: Yes.
Never.
Yes.
Eilat Aviram: Never, never, never, never.
Sadaf: Yeah.
Eilat Aviram: But it's possible that
you either missed the social cues where
you saw that, where you didn't see
that this person was behaving badly
or this person had a tendency to be
mean and nasty, so maybe you missed-
Sadaf: Mm
Eilat Aviram: that, or when they did
it, you somehow rationalized it inside
of yourself and made excuses for them.
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: So you didn't do anything
wrong to make it happen, but if it
happens and it happens consistently
in a relationship, you are danced.
That's the tango.
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: So that's… We're
coming… Yay, we're closing another loop.
Sadaf: Okay.
Yeah.
Eilat Aviram: If you participate in
the dynamic of them being mean to you
and you keep coming back for more-
Sadaf: Yes
…
Eilat Aviram: you, that is,
you are 100% responsible for
your 50% of the relationship.
Sadaf: Okay, got it.
Yeah, makes sense.
Do you have any thoughts on what's
happening from a metaphysical
perspective in this, uh, toxic dynamic?
Eilat Aviram: When somebody needs
to shame someone else or put someone
else down, they are usually trying
to make themselves feel better.
Everything we do, we do because
we're trying to feel better.
We think that we will feel better
in the doing or the having of it.
Mm. So they are putting you down or
judging you or shaming you 'cause
they think that doing that is
gonna make them feel maybe better
about themselves, less insecure- Mm
whatever the case may be.
But if we bring it into energy and
metaphysical terms, each one of us is
connected to our own source of energy.
We are, um, I suppose if you're a
light bulb, you are connected to the
main source of electricity, and we're
all connected through our own sources.
Mm. I'm not connected as a bulb to
you as a bulb and then to the source.
I have to have my own direct connection,
and that would be- life energy.
In, um, Ayurvedic, they call it prana.
In Chinese medicine, they call it chi.
In, uh, Japanese, uh,
healing, they call it ki.
Sadaf: Mm-hmm.
Eilat Aviram: So there is an actual
life energy that is measurable,
scientifically measurable, around
us- Hmm … i- in every living thing.
They have Kirlian photography, where
you can actually take a photograph of
something's energy, of a human's energetic
electro-biomagnetic field around us.
Yes.
So we live in an energetic universe.
Einstein told us that years ago.
Yes.
So it's established.
So ideally, each one of us is plugged
into this never-ending source of energy.
Yeah.
And we do that by meditation,
by prayer, by exercising, by
laughing, by opening our hearts-
Yeah … by healing things, traumas.
When we do all those things, you go
for a walk in nature, you swim in
some natural ocean or lake, you are
reconnecting to that source of energy.
It's why it feels so good.
Mm. We feel good.
We feel alive.
We feel vibrant.
We feel balanced.
Mm. If we don't do that stuff- Mm … or
we feel unable to for some reason,
we are disconnect from ourselves.
Mm. We also disconnect from our supply.
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: So there is something
called a narcissistic supply.
Mm. Have you ever heard of that term?
Sadaf: Is that when the, a narcissist
is using the victim for energy
to, like, suck their energy?
Eilat Aviram: Yes.
Sadaf: Yeah, okay.
Eilat Aviram: And it's one of the
reasons people call them energy vampires.
Sadaf: Yes.
Eilat Aviram: So if I'm unable, if
I'm a light bulb and I need to shine
and I need electricity, but I can't
access the source- Mm … but you can,
I can hook onto you to get my energy
so that I can shine, but you dim
and wobble, because I need to shine.
Sadaf: And so I make you feel bad
about yourself, because as you
feel bad about yourself, somehow
I feel better about myself.
But in energetic terms, I'm literally
sucking the energy from you to me,
because in a sense, I'm only…
Because we are only ever anything in
relation to something else, right?
No?
Eilat Aviram: Maybe.
I don't know Maybe.
Okay I'd have to think about that.
Okay.
Sadaf: Well, but, but let's,
let's say, I mean, I could be-
Eilat Aviram: Well, and s- I-
Let's say it's all relative,
so let's go with that Yes.
Sadaf: So, so, like, I'm only c- like, I'm
cool, but I'm cool relative to you, right?
So I have to be-
True … relative to something.
So in order to m- for me to feel
like I am something, I'm smart, I
have to feel smarter than something,
and I feel smarter than you.
If.
It's- Yeah
…
Eilat Aviram: the reason I was
hesitating- Yeah … is, is that
ideally, if you are tapped into your
own source, there is no relativity.
Sadaf: You're so right.
Eilat Aviram: That's why when you
said it, I was like, "Oh, kind
of-" Yeah … "yes, but also no.
Uh."
Sadaf: Yes, yes.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense, because
we are connected to divine energy,
and so then we are everything.
Eilat Aviram: Yes.
Sadaf: We are actually everything.
Eilat Aviram: If you are
smart, you're just smart.
Sadaf: Yes.
Eilat Aviram: I mean, there's
a- Unrelated to whether somebody
else is less or more smart.
Sadaf: Yeah.
You're so right.
I think, yeah, you're right about that.
Eilat Aviram: Um- So energetically,
what's happening when someone is
mean to you is that they're getting
something from you, and the interesting
thing about toxic people in general
is that they'll take any energy.
Like, you know when they say, "No
publicity is bad pub- is bad publicity?"
Mm. No attention is bad attention.
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: If you think about,
I'm using Trump as an example-
Mm … just because he's so
blatantly out there with all of this.
Uh, he upsets people a lot.
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: And then
people talk about him.
Mm. And people obsess about him,
and how crazy and how this and how
could he and what e- all of that
energy that they are generating-
Sadaf: Right
Eilat Aviram: goes to him.
Sadaf: And tell me, what about
more subtle forms of toxicity?
So narcissists I feel like a
very obvious kind of example.
Yes.
But are there ways that somebody
may not be necessarily a narcissist,
but they're just being mean to you?
Is that possible?
Eilat Aviram: Well, then, then you
are triggering something for them.
Sadaf: Okay.
Eilat Aviram: You're eliciting
some sort of response.
Being mean to someone is
a form of attack, right?
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: Which means we
only attack when we feel…
Sadaf: Threatened.
Eilat Aviram: Exactly.
Sadaf: Yeah.
Okay
Eilat Aviram: So then you need
to, like, ask what's happening.
And obviously we can't
know truth for anyone else.
That's why I keep wanting to circle
back to the power is inside you.
Sadaf: Yeah.
Eilat Aviram: You hold the power always.
You have the power to
say yes or to say no.
You're the only one who can know
I like this, I don't like that.
You're the only one who can say, um, "This
lights me up," or, "This depletes me."
Sadaf: Yeah.
Eilat Aviram: You're the only one who
knows your history, your family, how you
grew up, what your secret hopes and dreams
are, how it feels to be in your body.
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: There is only one
world expert on you, and that is you.
Sadaf: Yeah.
Eilat Aviram: And so to, to turn your
attention or to ask anybody else to
give you input on what you should do,
shouldn't do, how it should feel, what's
right for you, is giving away your power.
Sadaf: Right.
Eilat Aviram: Unless… And it's
ignoring the only world expert-
Sadaf: Mm
…
Eilat Aviram: on this one topic.
And obviously you do want other
people's input and advice.
I mean, I often will ask people, "What
do you think?" But I am, at the end of
the day, the one who decides for me.
Sadaf: So what can we do?
Eilat Aviram: When you find yourself in
any situation where you have a decision
to make or something feels uncomfortable,
something feels off, you're not sure
about this friend, you're not sure
about that comment they just made.
Mm. Something.
There's discomfort.
First of all, discomfort
is a massive gift.
It's not something we're taught.
Mm. Discomfort is telling…
is your body responding.
Discomfort is your autonomic
nervous system going, "Ah,
excuse me. Hello. Pay attention."
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: And what do we
normally do when we're uncomfortable?
We try and make it go
away, in all sorts of ways.
Either we'll leave the situation, which
sometimes is a good thing, but sometimes
we'll, like, scroll on our phone or we'll
eat stuff- Yeah … that we shouldn't
eat, or we'll binge-watch series, or we'll
work much more, or we'll, you know, we'll
do stuff that we regret later because
we're trying to avoid the discomfort.
Sadaf: Yeah.
Eilat Aviram: But discomfort is
your system telling you to listen.
Sadaf: Yeah.
Eilat Aviram: So don't override it.
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: So when you find yourself
uncomfortable, pause, acknowledge the
discomfort, and then ask this very
beautiful question, and that is this.
If I loved myself, what
would I choose to do now?
If I loved myself, in other words,
if I was my best friend looking at me
compassionately in this situation, what
would my best friend guide me to do?
If I really loved myself the way I love
my child or my dog or my partner or
my whoever, what would I say to myself
now, and what would I choose to do now?
So for you, for example, in those
situations where you didn't feel- Yeah
… comfortable or something felt off, if in
that moment you had said, "Okay, hang on.
Let me pause.
I'm, I'm uncomfortable.
I'm, I'm acknowledging it.
Yay me for listening to my system.
So now my system's trying to warn
me about something, so if I loved
myself, what would I choose to do now?"
Sadaf: Hmm.
If I loved myself, what
would I choose to do?
What I want to do is I wanna ask
the person, "Why did you say that?"
But that also feels very vulnerable,
especially when, uh, someone is saying
it as a joke, and then suddenly you are
feel… like you feel like you are making
it serious when it was just a joke.
It was just a joke.
It was just a joke, and why are you being
all weird about it and making it serious?
So I feel like what I would have
wanted to do at that point is to
say, "What do you mean by that?"
Or, "Why do you say that?" But I feel like
as soon as I say that, it's gonna shift
that dynamic from being jokes to, ooh- To-
…
Eilat Aviram: you took it
seriously … back to intimacy.
Sadaf: Uh, yeah.
Eilat Aviram: Because that is intimate.
Sadaf: Yes.
Eilat Aviram: You're now
showing someone- That I
Sadaf: felt bad.
Eilat Aviram: Yeah.
You're showing something about yourself.
Sadaf: Yeah.
Eilat Aviram: So you're shifting
that moment from ha ha ha ha ha- Yeah
to intimate.
Sadaf: Yeah.
Eilat Aviram: I want to let you
know that even though it looks
like you meant that as a joke, it
actually was quite hurtful for me.
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: But again,
you're looking for patterns.
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: If you immediately
do that and you do it every time-
Sadaf: Mm
…
Eilat Aviram: with everyone-
Sadaf: Mm
…
Eilat Aviram: people are gonna say
that you're a bit difficult- Mm
or sensitive.
But if with the same person or the
same group of friends, this is also
really important because the people
who are listening might have a
group of friends that they're not-
Yeah … feeling comfortable with.
Sometimes a group will pick on
someone or shame one person.
So we're back to the dancing,
we're back to all of the thing.
If you consistently are not feeling
good, you can then say, "Listen, I'm
not sure if you mean it as a joke,
as just a joke, but I just have to
tell you that that was hurtful to me.
And also last week when you said that
thing, and then-" Mm … "you know,
last year, the first time we met,
you said that thing, and actually
I don't really find it funny."
Mm. "Would you, would you please not do
that anymore?" And again, here's the test.
If the person is, "I'm so sorry, I never
meant to." Mm. "I'll make every effort.
Please let me know if I say
things that are offensive.
I'll make every effort not to," that's
a potentially very good friendship. But
if they say, "Oh, you're so sensitive.
Can't you take a joke?
What's wrong with you?
Ugh, you're so heavy." Mm. That's a red
flag So again, coming back to the tango.
Mm. If you are saying mean things to me-
Mm … and I don't like it, but I don't
say anything, then I'm continuing to
dance a tango that's making me unhappy.
Sadaf: You know what's, like, difficult
for me, uh, personally is that I think
in that moment, and I'm sure it happens
to other people, in that moment, I
get, like, so, like, shell-shocked.
Eilat Aviram: Mm.
Sadaf: Because it's like an
affront to my nervous system.
Eilat Aviram: Mm.
Sadaf: And then I have
no wor- I have no words.
Can I practice?
How do I practice this?
Eilat Aviram: There's different
things that you can do.
So first of all, if somebody asks
you something and, and you don't want
to- Mm … and you don't know what to
say, a beautiful thing to say is, "I
need to get back to you about that.
I need to think about it," or, "I need
to check my calendar," or, "I need to
go to the bathroom- Mm … and I'll get
back to you on that." Mm. So that buys
you time to let your autonomic nervous
system, which is what you're talking about
happens, that, "Ah," that fight is your
nervous system saying to you, "Danger.
Danger.
Danger.
Pay attention." So you step away, and
you give your system time to settle
because the other thing is that when
your nervous system goes online-
Sadaf: Mm
…
Eilat Aviram: your frontal cortex, which
is the part of you that can think and
plan and come up with clever answers-
Mm … it actually shuts down because
it's your primal brain that takes- Yeah
over to get you out of the danger.
Yeah.
And so there's no time
for an- analyzing things.
If a truck is coming, you
don't wanna be analyzing.
You want to get out the way.
So in that time, you can't actually think.
Sadaf: Yeah.
Eilat Aviram: Which is what
explains you just like- Which is
Sadaf: why I always have the
clever answers the next day.
Eilat Aviram: Exactly.
So there's two parts.
One is get yourself out of the
situation or buy yourself some time.
Sadaf: Mm.
"
Eilat Aviram: Can I… I will
get back to you tomorrow.
I need some time to think." And those
are very acceptable things. Like,
"Oh, that's an interesting request.
Um, I need to check some things, and
I'll get back to you about it tomorrow."
Then you've bought yourself time.
But the other thing is that if it's t- if
you didn't do that, there's a beautiful
key that allows you to reopen a situ- a
conversation any time, and that is to come
to someone and say, "I was thinking about
that comment you made three years ago."
Boom, it's open.
As soon as you say, "I
was thinking about…
I was thinking about what
happened yesterday." Hmm.
Can you see that the topic is
immediately available and ready?
I was thinking about that time
when we were kids 20 years ago.
Sadaf: I don't remember that.
It was so long ago.
It was
Eilat Aviram: so long ago.
Well, and but then I would tell you,
but the conversation is now open.
Mm-hmm.
So you could come back to that person
who's hurt you and say, "I was thinking
about what happened last Friday, and
I wanted to let you know that even
though it seemed like you were joking,
I actually felt quite stung by that."
Sadaf: Hmm.
Eilat Aviram: And then you wait to
see what they do with that But if
you don't say something, then you
are dancing the tango, my friend.
Sometimes our task is to learn how
to stop dancing the tango when we no
longer want to dance the tango, and
then someone who demands a tango is
actually a very helpful teacher for us.
Like, if you need to set
boundaries, then having a friend
who transgresses your boundaries
is actually a, a teacher for you.
It's like a coach.
It's like a personal training Mm … for
learning how to set a boundary.
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: Or if you need to work on,
um, speaking your mind or, um, walking
away or changing the relationship by
saying, "I prefer to be spoken to with
kindness and respect. Could… This and
this didn't feel respectful to me. Can
we, can we do it differently from now on?"
Sadaf: So are you telling me that
it sounds like friendships that
are, that maybe hurt us or break us
are actually the friendships that
might be teaching us to listen to
ourselves more and trust ourselves?
Eilat Aviram: Yes.
Sadaf: Um, yeah, I wonder if it's that
or if it's just, like, a nice story
that I tell myself to be like, "Oh,
well, I mean, at least it's a nice
learning opportunity," but actually,
like, the real thing is like, "Hey,
why did you, uh, why did you get into
that relationship, and why did you
s- stay so long until you got hurt?"
Eilat Aviram: Mm-hmm.
And hey, why do I have five
people like this in my life?
Sadaf: Yes.
Eilat Aviram: But that's your learning.
Yeah.
The common denominator is you.
Mm-hmm.
So if the lesson is to set boundaries,
then you need to learn to set boundaries,
which means to slowly either change
those relationships or leave them.
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: That will be the learning.
So it's not, "Oh, this person must be
teaching me a lesson, and therefore
I should stay and continue this
dynamic that's hurting me." No.
It's, "Oh, this person's here to teach
me a lesson to help me overcome dynamics
that are hurting me so I no longer
attract them or participate in them."
Sadaf: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
I want to close by asking
you about yourself.
Eilat Aviram: Okay.
Sadaf: So y- how did you… So you,
you're all about self-loving decisions
and how to, how to love ourselves
better, and, um, I wanna know how you
came to this conclusion that it all
starts and ends with loving yourself.
Eilat Aviram: Well, again, I come back
to loving yourself is meeting your needs
Sadaf: Mm
Eilat Aviram: And I think in my childhood,
I watched my mom not look after herself,
and it didn't bode well for any of us.
And I remember really wanting,
wishing, wishing that she could stand
up for herself and, and look after
herself in the way that she needed
because it would make me, as a little
person, feel safer in the world.
Yeah.
'Cause when you see your parents
not being able to do it, it
makes you feel very unsafe.
And so I think, uh, you know, in a
way, you go out to try and heal your
own wounding by helping other people.
I definitely have healed much of that
now, but it's where I learned that loving
yourself or looking after yourself is
the least selfish thing that you can do.
Mm. Because it really does
help everybody around you.
Mm. If you don't listen to yourself,
if you participate in dynamics
that are hurtful, they also hurt
the person, the other person
who's involved in it with you.
But when you stop it, everybody
grows, everybody benefits,
everyone is safe- safer
Sadaf: Is that something you learned or
did you come to that conclusion yourself?
Eilat Aviram: Which part
Sadaf: of it?
Well, about how loving yourself is
safer for everyone around you and
is, like, the better thing to do.
I'm curious to know how did you come
to that, because it's so counter.
And I don't know if that… Is that
something they teach in psychology school?
I don't know.
Eilat Aviram: No.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I suppose
maybe sometimes in a way.
Um, I've been working with
people for almost 30 years now.
Sadaf: Mm.
Eilat Aviram: And I have watched
people neglect themselves, override
themselves, not listen to their truth,
and it never goes well for anybody.
Sadaf: Yeah.
Eilat Aviram: Unhappy moms
have unhappy children.
Sadaf: Yeah.
Eilat Aviram: Unhappy teachers
have unhappy students.
Unhappy bosses have unhappy employees.
Nobody's ever happy around someone who's
not looking after themselves to the point
where they feel resentful and unhappy.
So it makes sense that if you look after
yourself, you're benefiting the community.
And it's interesting 'cause in my,
um, courses where I teach healthcare
practitioners how to make self-loving
decisions, and I have CPD courses
on that, I work with a lot of
different culture groups, right?
And there are a lot of culture groups
in, in, uh, in South Africa and in many
other places, but here especially that
I'm famili- more familiar with, where it's
really not okay to use the word I or me.
Sadaf: Yeah.
Eilat Aviram: It's we.
Mm. It's us.
Mm-hmm.
And this concept of loving yourself feels
like you are betraying your culture,
you're betraying your family- Yeah
you're betraying your community.
And what's absolutely fascinating
is that as we go through the course-
I have a YouTube video where I
interviewed one of the women.
She's a isiXhosa woman, and she speaks
about the journey she went on inside
of herself of meeting this loving
yourself concept, where she felt
like she was betraying her culture,
and where she came to the side of,
"But wait a minute, I'm not betraying
my community, I am the community."
'Cause I think in a lot of ways,
like, the Western white culture is
known to be much more individualistic.
Yes.
And this whole like, "Oh, I
love myself." And as a white
woman, here I am preaching it.
But it's not, it's not just that.
It's, for me, it's the way…
I've been speaking about Trump, so
I'll just bring in world leaders.
I think if world leaders genuinely
loved themselves and looked after
themselves, we would have world peace.
Sadaf: I don't think
capitalism is self-loving.
It seems self-serving, but actually,
we are screwing ourselves by
participating in this system, and I
wanna hear your thoughts about that.
Eilat Aviram: Cata- capitalism, exactly.
Catastrophic capita- Capitalism
benefits from us not valuing ourselves.
Mm. Because if you don't believe you
have worth, you're going to try and
buy that car and that house and those
clothes and that course to try and
make you feel better about yourself.
And so it really, um… Yeah, I
completely agree that it is the
opposite of self-loving, because
it's not meeting your real needs.
Mm. It's helping you to do the addiction
thing, which is to try and meet your
needs and make yourself feel better
by using an external thing, rather
than the real place, which is plugging
into the energy that exists there.
Yes.
So the energy that exists for everybody.
Sadaf: Yes.
Yeah, that makes so much sense.
Thank you so much, Ela.
Eilat Aviram: That was wonderful
and- Thank you very much.
Yeah.
Sadaf: Thanks for listening today.
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