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Rachel Johnson-Farias has dedicated her legal career to making the law more accessible to low-income people and communities of color. Rachel graduated with honors from Occidental College and obtained a B.A. in Critical Theory and Social Justice. She went on to earn her Juris Doctor degree from U.C. Berkeley, School of Law.
But after finishing her law degree, she encountered major roadblocks at the final steps towards realizing her dream. And it was through these hardships that the idea for her organization was born. Esq. Apprentice is a non-profit that helps nontraditional law students of color become licensed attorneys.
In our interview, she speaks candidly about how the do-everything-for-everyone mindset can quickly lead to burnout, how to build sustainable practices as a leader, and why she believes her organization can help upend systemic injustice.
Esq. Apprentice seeks to change access to the legal profession in California and, eventually, the nation.
If you’re inspired by Rachel and found this episode helpful, you can show your appreciation by making a donation to her organization at https://esqapprentice.org/donate-
This episode was produced by Jordan Thierry of Dream Chase Media, with essential production and marketing expertise from Aranza Garcia and Issac Gsoria.
You can follow How to Build a Nonprofit on Instagram, TikTok, and Substack. Sign up for our free newsletter at https://howtobuildanonprofit.substack.com/.
Creators and Guests
Host
Jordan Thierry
Jordan Thierry is a one-of-a-kind dude. He’s been called a master generalist, thought partner, community leader, documentary filmmaker, resource connector, international man of mystery—and that’s just the beginning. Jordan once dreamed of being a big-time filmmaker, but he could never quite pull himself away from activists, teachers, and social workers long enough to make it in Hollywood. Those are his people. And he’s always found more purpose in the movement than the industry. If you’ve worked with Jordan, you know he’s gracious, grounded, curious, and ambitious in that laid-back, West Coast kind of way. He’s also known for asking really good questions. A lot of them. Which is exactly why podcasting is such a natural fit. Too bad it doesn’t pay. So do him a solid—listen to an episode. He thinks he’s pretty good at it. You might agree.
Guest
Rachel Johnson-Farias
Rachel Johnson-Farias has dedicated her legal career to making the law more accessible to low-income people and communities of color. Rachel graduated with honors from Occidental College and obtained a B.A. in Critical Theory and Social Justice. She went on to earn her Juris Doctor degree from U.C. Berkeley, School of Law. During law school, Rachel received the Francine Diaz Memorial Award for her commitment to social justice through legal services and advocacy. After completing her legal education, Rachel was awarded an Equal Justice Works Fellowship to implement the Starting Over Strong (SOS) program at the East Bay Community Law Center; a juvenile reentry program for young people seeking to seal their juvenile records. Rachel’s prior experience in working with low-income clients and dedication to empowering youth led her to create Esq. Apprentice; a non-profit that helps nontraditional law students of color become licensed attorneys. Esq. Apprentice seeks to change access to the legal profession in California and, eventually, the nation. Organization IG: https://www.instagram.com/esq.apprentice/?hl=en Personal IG: thevisiondoula LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rjf-esq-3983894b/
What is How to Build a Nonprofit?
How to Build a Nonprofit isn’t your typical “thought leader” podcast. It’s real talk with real people who’ve dared to start something meaningful—and managed to keep it going (most days).
Each episode dives into the messy, inspiring, behind-the-scenes stories of nonprofit founders and builders. We talk about the stuff people don’t usually put on grant reports—burnout, bad board decisions, flopped fundraisers, surprising wins, and the little pivots that made a big difference.
If you’re starting a nonprofit, scaling one, or just wondering if you’re the only one making it up as you go… you’re in the right place. This show is here to remind you: you’re not alone, you’re not crazy, and yes—this work is still worth doing.
Jordan Thierry (00:26)
I'm your host Jordan Thierry and this is How to Build a Nonprofit. In this episode, I interview Rachel Johnson-Farias, founder and executive director of ESQ Apprentice in California. Rachel grew up in Stone Mountain, Georgia, where she excelled in school and in music. She developed an early interest in the law, or more so, the system of injustice that she saw needed fixing.
She moved to California to attend Occidental College after high school and, against the advice of her mentor, enrolled in law school in pursuit of becoming a practicing attorney one day. But after finishing her law degree, she encountered major roadblocks at the final steps towards realizing her dream. And it was through these hardships that the idea for her organization was born. In our interview, she speaks candidly about how the do everything for everyone mindset
can quickly lead to burnout, how to build sustainable practices as a leader, and why she believes her organization can help upend systemic injustice. She dropped some serious gems throughout our conversation and shares valuable insights on the roles of persistence, personality, and purpose in organizational leadership. All of this and more in today's episode, and I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did.
Jordan Thierry (01:40)
Perfect. All right. We are live. Rachel, can you can hear me? Okay. All right. Great. I can hear you as well. You sound fantastic. Really excited to have you on the podcast. Excited to learn more about Esquire apprentice. And so if you don't mind, can you just share a little bit about like what Esquire apprentice does and, and yeah, what's your mission of your organization is?
Rachel Johnson-Farias (01:43)
I can.
You
Yeah, I am Rachel Johnson-Farias, founding executive director of ESQ Apprentice, and we are closing the women's racial wealth gap one apprentice lawyer at a time. In California and three other states, you can become a lawyer without going to law school via legal apprenticeship. And so we utilize that model to help low-income women of color become lawyers without law school and without debt, which is really key to their journey towards economic security.
Jordan Thierry (02:29)
Thank you, awesome. And so you are also a lawyer. You went to law school. back to before you actually started your organization, what made you want to become a lawyer?
Rachel Johnson-Farias (02:30)
Yeah.
Yeah, I was actually headed to Broadway. had visions of grandeur. Yeah, no, went to college. I went to a liberal arts school, but that was only because when I had the opportunity to go to Juilliard out of high school for voice, I was like, I don't know if I can just sing for four years. I haven't made up my mind. So I ended up going to Los Angeles to Occidental College.
Jordan Thierry (02:49)
Really?
Rachel Johnson-Farias (03:07)
And one of the things that drew me there was like it was its proximity to Hollywood. So was like, maybe I'll just, you I'll do my thing in school, but maybe I'll get discovered. They weren't discovering five- two chubby black women so much on the streets in Hollywood at that time. Things have changed a bit. But so I went and I actually ended up getting really the student scene there. I started my major.
Jordan Thierry (03:13)
Mmm.
Yeah
Rachel Johnson-Farias (03:30)
with a bunch of other folks, critical theory and social justice. And through that major, I really learned a lot about our legal system
And so I was, I loved researching and finding like that little needle in the haystack, that thing in history that was like, ooh, see, I knew we had been here before and learning from the past in order not to repeat the mistakes.
And my advisor said Rachel I know your heart and you know I do not go to law school. Someone had told me if you love research go to law school and she was like law school I've been it is not the place for
innovation, it is not the place for activism. It's very concerned with the status quo. You're going to feel like you're under attack like every day you're there. Don't do it. And unfortunately, I'm the type of person when you're like, don't do that Rachel. like, really? So I am, I went I ended up applying, I did the UCLA law fellows program, I got into law school, they helped pay for the applications.
And I went really determined that law school wasn't going to get me. I took her advice to heart. I said they're going to try to attack me, but I'm going do my
It really was this wonderful experience and I learned that for me, criminal justice is also reproductive justice.
first job in law school was with this prison abolitionist organization called Justice Now based in Oakland, California. And I was not a prison abolitionist when I went there. I obviously, with my family's experience, a father who had been incarcerated, a brother who had been incarcerated, I didn't love the legal system, but I was like, we still need it, don't we?
And they really just opened my eyes to that 13th Amendment fact. And it made me think like, oh, actually, no, we don't. I ended up working on doing some of the initial research for what would become a bill that passed that outlawed sterilization, forced and coerced sterilization in women's prisons in California. And I, yeah.
Jordan Thierry (05:21)
Wow. I'm familiar with that. That's incredible.
huge. mean, terrible injustice that's been done to many women, indigenous and black women, in particular in California, with forced sterilization. And yeah, it came upon the passage of that law in my research several years ago. So thank you for that. That's incredible.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (05:27)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. ⁓
Yeah,
I love doing the work and I didn't carry it to the finish line. was like in the beginning, I was like, it took 10, 12 years, maybe even 20, because they were working on it before I got there. But what I found is that there were very few laws within the US.
Jordan Thierry (05:47)
Sure. Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (05:56)
that we could use to say that's wrong. We had to go to an international human rights framework in order to try to secure the human rights of incarcerated people in the United States. And so all of that, know, critical theory and social justice in undergrad and then in law school taking these courses that really helped me understand that this system that we've been handed just at its foundation doesn't.
Jordan Thierry (06:01)
Wow.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (06:20)
work for people who look like me. You know what I mean?
Jordan Thierry (06:23)
Hmm.
you were and undergraduate at Occidental College, your teacher or mentor advised you, warned you not to go to law school. You ended up going anyway. And at the end of the day, would you say that, was she
Rachel Johnson-Farias (06:39)
I loved my law school experience, because I think it's because I had that warning. I was one of maybe six or seven black women in my law school class at Berkeley, And...
I went in like I'm gonna work hard, but I'm also gonna play hard. So I took it as, I took advantage of every extracurricular, of every, I started doing clinical work my very first semester. They had this student run workers' rights clinic. Because for me, I'll say this, I think law school is very theoretical. Like the most prestigious tracks that you can take are moot court.
And it's like this one day I will argue in front of the Supreme Court and I will argue ideals. And so they give you like the theory of law and what it's supposed to be. And you go back and forth philosophically, how do we, but the practice of it, it's not actually something in my experience of law school that we got a lot of. So I think if I wasn't doing the practical training, if I wasn't serving clients from the beginning, I might've had a different experience, but I was always doing that, was it Paulo Freire, that praxis, right? I was always trying to combine the theory.
to the practice and see like what's the point of doing law if we're not talking about how it impacts our people.
⁓ And so as long as I was having that balance, law school was a lot of fun for me. I had a good time, but I think it's rare. I think there are very few people, especially people of color I've spoken with who left law school and said, that was fun. I love that ride, you know?
Jordan Thierry (07:45)
Right.
I have enough attorney friends ⁓ to know that the California State Bar Exam is one of the most difficult in the nation. What was that experience like for you taking the California State Bar Exam? Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (08:01)
Hahaha.
long, hard,
identity, defining, ⁓ challenging. I failed the California bar three times before I passed on my fourth attempt. ⁓ And when I was failing each of those times, it's a two day test now, it was a three day test. So I studied so hard for that test and I'm what folks call a K through JD. So from kindergarten until I got my law degree, I was like a locomotive, like.
Jordan Thierry (08:15)
Hmm
Wow.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (08:35)
get out my way.
I'm gonna do what I set my mind to and nothing will stop me. That test stopped me. And the first time it stopped me, I had a community of folks who were like, yeah, a bunch of us get stopped at the first one, especially people of color. Here are these resources, try this tutor, you'll get it next time. I actually, when you pass the bar, you don't know your score. When you fail, you get your scores. And I came within five or 10 points each time that I failed the bar exam.
So it was excruciating, but I show people those scores and they'd be like, you're so close. Just do this one thing, just do this one thing. So the first time I was like, all right, I had this fellowship, my job was secure. I shook it off, I took it again. And then I failed the second time. For context, they only offer this test twice a year. So you can either take it in February or July.
So I
failed July and then I failed February. At this point, I still have some time left in my Equal Justice Works fellowship. So I'm not like freaking all the way out, but I'm like, if I don't figure this out in a year, I might not have a job. What's going on? I did all the main courses. I did like, Barbary Kaplan. It didn't work for me. I got a tutor. I studied so much my nose blood, which I had only seen in movies, but I was like going over something and drops of blood were coming down my nose. And I was like,
Jordan Thierry (09:31)
Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (09:46)
I I need to sleep, you know, that kind of thing. I was up to eight hours a day, every day, like two hours in the morning before work, work, two hours at lunch, home, dinner, two hours sleep, eight hours. I was very regimented. I was extremely disciplined. I took the approach of like, that I had taken K through JD is like, as long as I keep working, I will pass. And so I took it a third time and I failed again.
Jordan Thierry (09:47)
Yeah.
I
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (10:08)
And if the second time knocked me on my knees, the third time knocked me on my back, I was just like, I don't even know what I'm doing. I don't, what is going on. It didn't make any sense to me. I knew the stuff inside out. Meanwhile, I had helped pass legislation throughout the state of California that eliminated fees for juvenile records sealing. Making myself, like my goal when I got my fellowship, when I started California's first juvenile records healing clinic.
was to make myself unnecessary. I think that's always my goal as a lawyer is like if we can get to a time where we don't need lawyers and everyone has their own information and can advocate for themselves, that's when I'll know that the legal system is like it's working. And so I was achieving that everything I set out to do as a lawyer, but I was not passing the bar exam. And that third time I decided it's the keep going, keep going, keep going and going. It doesn't work.
Jordan Thierry (10:31)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (10:55)
I finally said, you need to rest. And so even at the sake of like, was about to end my fellowship, they were like, you better take it again or else you might not have a job. And I was like, it doesn't, I'm more important than the test. I need to really figure out why I want to do this, why I'm spending a thousand dollars every six months. That's how much it costs to take the bar, a thousand bucks that I didn't have. ⁓ I need to figure out why I'm doing this.
Jordan Thierry (11:14)
Wow, yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (11:20)
And so I took some time off between the third and the fourth time I took it. I skipped that next, what is February, I started, you know, just focusing on my wellness. I really started asking myself why you wanna do this and the two things that I came to that made me get up and take the bar one more time was,
One, I wanted to be a lawyer because lawyers have a confidentiality that rivals priests. It might even be like even more so. I want it to be that person in the room that you could say anything
Jordan Thierry (11:45)
Mm-hmm.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (11:49)
And then the second thing was getting into prisons.
So I went back, rested, took it a fourth And that's the time I passed. Unfortunately, my job was over. In between the time I took it and the time I found out I passed. But the universe kind of conspired to put ESQ apprentice in my life. I'm happy to talk about that more. But that's been that was my journey to to law licensing.
Jordan Thierry (11:57)
Alright.
UGH
Yeah, no, thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that.
let's get into the starting of your organization. recently came into your 10th year, Or celebrated your 10th year as an organization. Congratulations, it's an awesome anniversary. Huge milestone. 10 years ago, tell us about where things were 10 years ago,
Rachel Johnson-Farias (12:22)
Yes! Hooray! Thank you.
Yeah.
So 10 years ago, I was in the midst of failure. I had talked about my individual failure with the Bar Exam, but I was also witnessing systemic failure with the juvenile record sealing. I had this one client whose record I helped seal, who had been turned out into sex work when she was like 12.
You know, she loved an older man, older man abused her. It's a pretty typical story in that regard. She picked up a lot of loitering and other offenses from 12 to 18. And at 18, around about 17, found out she was pregnant and decided she wanted to turn her life around. And that's where, you know, I came in and I was like, yes, let's do it, let's go. And it was such a positive experience for her and me. She got to stand in front of the same judge who had said, I have, who adjudicated her guilty and juvenile.
context you aren't convicted you're a judge or adjudicated. So in front of that same judge she stood she said I've turned my life around I'm the mom I want to be and that judge said I'm proud of you sealed her record and she came out of that courtroom.
so excited. She was like this is it, this is what I want to do. I want to help girls like me become like just get out of this life. I think I want to be the lawyer, I want to stand next up to them in the courtroom and I was like let's go, let's do it. Okay first we got to get your GED then you'll have to do some combination of community college or undergrad. It might take four to six years but I will help you with your scholarships, don't worry. After you do that
Jordan Thierry (13:46)
Mm-mm. Mm-hmm.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (13:58)
we gonna go to law school, but I know some programs and I can help you get some scot. And I just saw her like, okay, well, I won't have 10 years to try to get, I have a situation now, I guess not. And I knew in that moment, as much as I knew in the law school classes, you're really doing a disservice by not letting these advocate, make them question this more so they can be better advocates. She was asking all the right questions and advocacy was nowhere.
Jordan Thierry (14:03)
Yeah.
Right. Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (14:23)
nowhere near available or accessible for her. So later that, maybe that week, I'm at the law office. I know my job's running out. I know I'm feeling the bar. We have summer students. I bumped into a summer student. said, what law school do you go to? And they were like, I don't go to law school. I'm apprenticing to be a lawyer. I went, what is that? And they were like, yeah.
Jordan Thierry (14:25)
share.
Like what? Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (14:43)
I'm over with Ed over in here and like in in this state if you study so much with an experienced attorney you can be a lawyer. I said huh huh and I went home and I looked it up and I was like this is it. This is how I get my client who I just you know had talked to and said she can't she's like I don't have time for that. This is how she becomes the lawyers that the lawyer she'd wish she'd had all along the way and it was like
Jordan Thierry (15:06)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (15:07)
the call came. And so I, I wrote down the who, what, when, where, why that And I didn't pursue it maybe for about like six months, because I was still trying to figure out how I was gonna pass the bar and keep my job. Because it wasn't, you know, it was a great idea. It felt like a call, but it was not funded.
Jordan Thierry (15:20)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
You hadn't passed the bar yet at this point. Got it.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (15:26)
And I had passed the bar.
So I wrote it down, kept it to myself. When I realized like after I failed the third time, like I'm taking some time for me. That's when I started looking into potential funding for it. And I applied for an Echoing Green fellowship. It was, at the time it was black male achievement. Cause I thought I was creating this for my clients who were about 95 % black and brown men and boys.
Jordan Thierry (15:42)
Mmm.
Hmm?
Rachel Johnson-Farias (15:51)
So I applied and I didn't get it the first time, but I made it to the finalist stage. And they flew me to New York and I did the interviews and just on an idea. I'll forever be grateful to Sheryl Dorsey ⁓ at Echoing Green. I don't think it's a coincidence that a Black women led organization would take a chance on an organization like ours. But I just, when I got to the finalist stage, even though I didn't get it, I was like, I think, I think this could work.
Jordan Thierry (15:56)
Nice!
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (16:19)
I
think I could do this. So that was 10 years ago. At the same time, my husband and I, were both unemployed. We were trying to decide we were newlyweds. Are we gonna start a family? What are we gonna do?
Jordan Thierry (16:26)
Wow.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (16:30)
He was just finished grad school and was having trouble finding jobs in the Bay. And we decided, one, we were gonna start a family. Two, that he was gonna go to work because he was much more comfortable doing a traditional like nine to five. And three, that I was gonna pursue ESQ apprentice wholeheartedly, like put my all into it to try to get it funded. And so we went until we ran out of money or just before we ran out of money, my husband got a call back for a job.
Jordan Thierry (16:47)
Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (16:54)
and we were like wow okay this look at him a minute when two people agree right so he got the job. I applied to get for 501c3 status for esq apprentice. I did the they used to have this pathway in the middle like you didn't have to do the big
Jordan Thierry (16:56)
Yeah
Right.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (17:10)
1023, you could do like a mid-size one if you didn't think you were going to have more than $50,000 over three years. You could just do a like a fast track. So I did the fast track 1023. And then within a week, I found out I was pregnant with my first child after we had received an infertility diagnosis. And so it really was like, a lot. It's a lot of good stuff. And it is like,
Jordan Thierry (17:16)
Okay. Mm-hmm.
wow.
Whoa, that's a Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (17:37)
That's been, if I can say one thing as a nonprofit leader, that that origin story like cemented for me is you gotta go trust your gut and go on faith. Like when the call comes, answer and everything you need to answer will be there. think when we started, I put $110 in the bank. That was all the extra money I had. I was not getting paid.
Jordan Thierry (17:42)
Mm-hmm.
⁓ Mm-hmm.
Okay, yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (18:01)
And I played like the postage and the filing fee for the 1023. And then it was just me and a board of friends and family. had three board members, two of my dear friends and my husband. And for a year, so that's how we went. Like no, you know.
Jordan Thierry (18:15)
Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (18:16)
didn't have funding, didn't have all these things. When I got Echoing Green, I could finally pay myself again. I did not pay myself enough. ⁓ I, you know, started my salary where I had left off with the non-profit law firm and it wasn't in the Bay Area, wasn't enough. Yeah.
Jordan Thierry (18:23)
Sure.
It wasn't enough. Yeah. Can you remind me
just the the Echoing Green, how much you get for that award?
Rachel Johnson-Farias (18:36)
Yeah, then it was 90,000 over, I want to say 18 months, right? And I would say more than the money, it was the networks that opened
Jordan Thierry (18:42)
Okay, okay. Yeah, I think that sounds right.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (18:48)
So it ended up being not just the seed to get things started, but it bloomed fairly quickly into like getting some support for the organization.
Jordan Thierry (18:48)
Yeah.
Yeah, that's
incredible. think, you know, we, may have been in the same pool of, of, applicants and I applied in 2013 and 2014. I didn't get it either time, but, um, but, uh, you know, Oh, okay. Okay. So you were, yeah, you were after me like towards the end of the, I applied for it. Yeah. That's when I applied for it. Yeah. Um,
Rachel Johnson-Farias (19:04)
Really?
Yeah, I think I was 2017, 16 or 17 when I ended up getting it. Yeah, a little bit later. Yeah. Were you blackmail achievement too? Or? Yeah, yeah.
Jordan Thierry (19:21)
But that's awesome. Congratulations for folks who don't know Echoing Green is a really great organization initiative that supports, you know, early stage nonprofit founders. And it's helped launch a lot of really incredible organizations. So cool. So Echoing Green helped you get your first real significant check and led you to other additional funders.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (19:31)
Exactly.
Yeah.
Jordan Thierry (19:43)
You were able to start paying yourself. At what point were you implementing your program? Like actually starting to do work with people.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (19:45)
Yep.
Yeah, that took a little longer. am constantly battling, but winning these days, the struggle with perfectionism, think one of those, somewhere along the way someone told me, your organization will be ready to go if you have two years of runaway. Like if you can play your staff for two years, that's the gold standard. And as soon as someone told me what the gold standard was, I was like, must achieve gold standard.
I'm getting help now knowing that's not right. But it actually is why I'm really grateful that my first board was Dear Friends and Family because after about maybe a year, one of my board members, Serena Rankin, sat me down and was like, sis, product is king. You need to start doing the thing. Not everybody's going to fund an idea.
Jordan Thierry (20:20)
Yeah.
Exactly,
Rachel Johnson-Farias (20:38)
Like Echoing Green is gonna fund an idea because they've got a transformative leader and a woman of color who's like who knows that it takes a lot to build the infrastructure. ⁓ But everybody's not gonna fund that, you need to start. And so we started, we started, we got two or three apprentices to register with the State Bar of California.
Jordan Thierry (20:38)
Yeah.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (20:58)
hit some hiccups even right out the bat with that. But we just started piloting, started testing, testing. And it would take 10 years, actually. This was just this last year, so about nine years, is when we went through a program redesign. Like it took about a decade to learn like what we were doing, but more importantly, what worked and what didn't work about what we were doing. When I set out, I, in hindsight, realized I was basically trying to be
Jordan Thierry (21:10)
Okay. Wow.
Sure.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (21:22)
what the government is supposed to be. I was trying to be like the wraparound legal resources provider. was trying to like, during the pandemic, we ended up giving cost of living stipends that ended up being guaranteed basic income, like rivaling those programs. ⁓ I put everything into the program and I was a staff of one, had some contractors help some capacity from outside, but I was trying to be everything for everyone because
Jordan Thierry (21:26)
Mm-hmm.
wow. Wow. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, you were trying to create like
basically every kind of support that someone would need to not fail or not, you know, stop their pursuit of the apprenticeship program pathway. Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (21:53)
Right. Exactly.
I was trying to solve the individual and the systemic problems by myself. And it's, and it's not, it doesn't work. It doesn't work. And it's really frustrating because I know what it takes. It's like, it's not rocket science. We know.
Jordan Thierry (22:02)
At the same time, yeah. ⁓
No, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (22:14)
what it takes to eliminate, and in some ways it did work. Like some of the people who were in her program then, one of them was working three gig jobs when she joined ESQ Apprentice and no benefits, single mom, four kids, months to month. she, because she was working so much, she wasn't spending any time with her kids either.
I, when she joined ESQ Apprentice, it was like, we're gonna get you that job. Sat with her, did the resume, did the applications. She ended up getting a paralegal job at a public defender's office and consistently went up the ranks and has been promoted year after year after year. She has one job now.
Jordan Thierry (22:48)
Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (22:48)
with
benefits, some of the best benefits in the state of California. And then she would bring her kids to class when we would have our classes. And they were like, well, now I want to live my dreams because I see mommy living her dreams. So it worked. It worked, but it also.
Jordan Thierry (22:57)
Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (23:02)
didn't in the sense of like, was completely burned out. All the money was going into the program and it was not sustainable. ⁓ There wasn't, it was like, this is just going to run out. We aren't doing any renewable. There's nothing in here that's gonna renew. And so like, if I, know, for folks who have the vision, cause I could see it clearly, but you know, it like, how do I get there? I think the, works best when you're giving and receiving. There has to be a cycle there.
Jordan Thierry (23:05)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Sure.
Sure.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (23:30)
And I was at a point where I was giving, but I wasn't getting a whole lot back. And that is the recipe for burnout. Solo for most of it. I mean, I had like my friends and family board. I think we moved to a second board. I had a lot of people rooting for me. I had some funders who really like,
Jordan Thierry (23:34)
Yeah.
Yeah. did you have staff at this point or were you just so low for most of the journey? Wow.
Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (23:52)
really invested in trying to connect me to resources, but I didn't have the capacity personally to engage with a lot of those resources. ⁓ And I didn't have the resources to hire anyone. I just got off the phone with a funder maybe like yesterday and they were like, yeah, we saw your finances and unfortunately it's not gonna work for us. mean, this is what a lot of nonprofit, well, maybe not a lot, but for me and a lot of the other women of color leaders I know running nonprofits, that's like a common thing. They don't trust us with money.
Jordan Thierry (23:58)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (24:21)
And anytime the money looks like it's it's like not being well kept. It's this see I knew it. We can't invest in you. You're not a good return on investment. All these things. I've been telling people I'm swear I'm going to write this article. I've already got a draft but like would modern philanthropy fund the Underground Railroad?
Jordan Thierry (24:28)
Hmm. Yeah.
Ooh, I love
that. I love that, do that. Yeah, I think we know the answer. Don't spoil it, no spoilers. No spoilers, yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (24:40)
And the answer, I mean.
But
it's very much that. It's like there are a lot of leaders with a vision for how we, not just for how we like fix stuff, how we get free. How we create the pathways and the infrastructure for anyone who sets their mind to like, I don't wanna be.
Jordan Thierry (24:56)
Free, right, right. Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (25:03)
enslaved in the system anymore to get free and there are very few people in philanthropy who are willing to say I see that path or I'm gonna find that right so I got a lot of that and I couldn't hire I couldn't afford to hire anyone I barely could pay myself for maybe six years
Jordan Thierry (25:05)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (25:22)
Five, six years.
So I was doing the program, getting by. In hindsight, go me, right? That's what it did, like that it kept going and we still got people getting jobs. But I only served, or not only served, I served about maybe 13 to 16 women in that time, which for me was monumental. But for funders was like, do you really care about this work?
Jordan Thierry (25:27)
Yeah, absolutely, go you. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. Right.
And is that, yeah, is that,
would you say that sort of the challenge and in reference to the funder conversation you just mentioned, you know, basically they're saying, okay, you've got, you know, $500,000 a year that you're bringing in and spending, and this is going to help, you know, however many, 15, 20, 30 women. basically they're saying,
That's not enough. Our money needs to go further to impact more people. Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (26:12)
Yeah, I mean, pretty
much it's, you know, could help hundreds with this. you know, I don't I've learned not to either or anything I both and they're not wrong all the way, right? Like there is in our program redesign.
Jordan Thierry (26:21)
Sure.
Right.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (26:27)
we did figure out a way to reach more people. So we went from like serving 13 to serving 60 a year in one year. And that's because we implemented a pre-apprenticeship program, the accelerator. Because in that like better part of a decade when we were working with folks, we learned, hey, folks think they wanna be lawyers, but they don't actually know what lawyers do.
Jordan Thierry (26:33)
Yeah.
Okay.
Sure,
Rachel Johnson-Farias (26:47)
And then after like a year or two in the program, they'd figure out, I actually don't want to do this anymore. This isn't what I thought it was. And so we'd have to start over, right? So we learned, we actually should serve more people, but it's when you serve them that matters. We need to serve more people at the beginning so they can make an affirmed choice, an informed choice about the career path they want to pursue. And so like I mentioned the person who went on to get the PD job and you know,
Jordan Thierry (26:52)
Yeah, no.
Yeah.
Sure. So they really understand, right?
Sure.
Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (27:14)
In our accelerator that we launched this last year, we had someone who was like, thank you for this 10 week program. It made me understand I don't wanna be a lawyer. And that was a win for me too. Because yeah, you get that clarity and it's tantamount to having a career versus having just jobs.
Jordan Thierry (27:22)
Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Absolutely. And I think, you know, if a young person or it doesn't, if one of the women in your program, you know, gets on a pathway to even like a paralegal profession or career, or all, if it goes all the way to, you know, passing the bar and becoming an attorney, like, like that's a career, right? That is like decades of impact. And so, you know,
Rachel Johnson-Farias (27:42)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yes! Yes!
Jordan Thierry (27:54)
So many nonprofits face this challenge of like funders, donors, you know, looking at their numbers and saying, you know, basically doing the math and saying, you're telling me it's $55,000 per person to make an impact. And you're like, well, how much is someone's life really worth to you? but we have to, we have to, you know, be.
you know, principled and creative in how we articulate what the real value is of our work and the impact that we're making. Because if you were to juxtapose it to A, prison system, they're putting way more dollars into, you know, what they call rehabilitation, right? Which is only doing more harm. But then even, you know, looking at the parallel between workforce development system and how much workforce development systems cost and invest per
Rachel Johnson-Farias (28:20)
Exactly, exactly that.
Mm-hmm. Way more.
Exactly.
Mm-hmm.
Jordan Thierry (28:39)
you know, person they serve, it's a lot more money, it's way less effective, you know? ⁓ And so, you know, having to like those realities with the work that you're doing is hard, it's kind of, it's unfair, but it's like also part of what the role is, right?
Rachel Johnson-Farias (28:43)
Yes. Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
right. And I mean, and change takes time. And that's, would say is the other thing that was a big, has been a big barrier to getting the resources we need is folks want to see in and out the door within three months, within a year. And I'm like, that's when you take the emergency room approach, you're gonna end up back in the emergency room. We're trying to heal this. We're trying to heal the underlying disease, right? ⁓ And poverty don't take no days off.
Jordan Thierry (29:00)
huh.
Yeah, that's not how works.
Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Right,
right.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (29:24)
That's the
other thing that happened. So many women in our program would join and then they'd be ready to go. And then within six months, they'd be unhoused. In six months, they'd be fleeing a domestic violence situation. In six months, their kid would get sick. In six months, their parent would pass. And then they'd be like, all right, I'm gonna take some time off and come back. They take the time off, they come back. One year later, another parent passes. One year later, they lose the house again. Do you know what I mean? It's like poverty is relentless and it's poison and it's venomous and it just keeps.
Jordan Thierry (29:27)
Yeah.
Hmm. Yep. Yeah.
Hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (29:52)
going and going and going. And there's this mismatch I'm learning. And I think this happens in the workforce development field too, where it's like, there's a side of workforce development that is really industry employer, funder driven, right? Where it's like, just get them in the door, make them do the work, make them produce, da da da. And then there's what I call W.O.C.- force development, but what we try to do at ESQ Apprentice, women of color centered workforce development that really centers the person and the community need.
Jordan Thierry (30:04)
Yeah, totally. Absolutely.
Hmm.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (30:19)
And that's a much longer process. That is like, don't just get any job. That's get the job that serves your career. Because you will get tested. You will W.O.C.- into the courtroom and they will say, defendant, get out. What's going to keep you going back? How are you going to do that process where you can say, this is still for me. I still have a clarity around what I want to do with this and to do it in a lasting way.
Jordan Thierry (30:23)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
Yep.
Hmm.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (30:45)
60 to 70 % of people who graduate law school end up starting their own firms going small or solo. It is absolutely a normal path for folks. And so for the apprentices, I hope that that's what they do. I had a vision for ESQ apprentice. if when I lived in West Oakland, there was a liquor store every like two blocks? What if keep the liquor store fine? I'm not gonna judge that. But what if upstairs from the liquor store was a law office? What if I could just be like, oh, housing attorneys right there. Let me just go ask a question real quick.
Jordan Thierry (30:50)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Right.
Sure.
Yeah.
Right, right. Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (31:12)
And that's the promise of apprenticeship. That's the like,
you don't have to leave home. You don't have to go out of pocket. You don't have to get into six figure debt, which follows you by the way. Seven years, I did public service loan forgiveness out of law school. So my law school helped pay off my loans. But when we stabilized, both, my husband and I both had income, two young children. We decided, okay, it's time to buy a home. Let's see what we can do. The market seemed like it was all right then. ⁓ And I get there and they're like,
Jordan Thierry (31:25)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (31:39)
that back end debt to income ratio. What is this? What is this over here? And I was like, but I'm getting help and they're gonna pay it and in 10 years, it'll be forgiven. And luckily under the last administration, it was because under this regime, who knows? they were just like, nobody in the world would lend to me. And that's the kind of thing they don't talk about when they're like, just get the job, just go to law school just to the
Jordan Thierry (31:42)
Yeah, that's not.
Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (31:59)
You're not just saying take on three years of pain, you're potentially throwing off a lifetime of economic security.
Jordan Thierry (32:03)
Right.
Right,
right. No, no, it's real. It's real. And so, you know, if I may ask how you talked about how your first five or six years really burnt you out, because you're trying to do so many things all by yourself and, know, with the help of your, with your board, but, but you kind of ran yourself into the ground. So how did you change your, you know, your work structure, your personal life and professional habits?
Rachel Johnson-Farias (32:27)
Yeah.
Jordan Thierry (32:30)
to lead the organization in a more sustainable way.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (32:34)
took a break. Same with the bar. Right? It's sabbatical. That notion of rest is so important. I am a disciple in the church of the nap ministry, guess, Patricia Hershey's book on rest is resistance. But I rest, I took a break. I took maybe it was like three to five months, like
Jordan Thierry (32:36)
Really?
Yeah.
Okay.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (32:53)
where I was just like, we're gonna pause everything. I just need to think. And I learned later, in this year actually with our program redesign had UC, the team at UCSF come talk about stereotype threat and how like when you know, when you have to label your identity before you take a test, like it can basically.
Jordan Thierry (32:53)
Okay.
Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (33:11)
raise a stereotype in your mind and then you do more poorly on the test. So if you're a woman taking a math test and you have to check a box that says I'm a woman, you will perform more poorly on the math test. And it's because our brains are amazing, right? When you're, under threat, when we feel threatened, our survival brain gets activated. that's this place down here that's basically like, whatever we gotta do, survive. One thing it does is it shuts down your frontal lobe.
Jordan Thierry (33:37)
Mmm.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (33:37)
It shuts
down your ability to strategize. This is where you learn. This is where you strategize. If you're spiritual, this is your third eye, the ability to see beyond sight. That happens here. And when you're under threat, when you're afraid, it shuts this down.
Jordan Thierry (33:48)
Hmm.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (33:52)
So for myself, I was afraid. was like, man, it was like when I was burned out, it felt like the bottom was constantly gonna fall out. The money wasn't gonna come. I know this is gonna be a failure. I'm gonna have to, I was going through these cycles in my mind and I literally couldn't see the next thing. I took a break. I set some intentions. I stopped being, I talked to my fear. And that might sound silly, but I think it's in some ways where our nation is now.
Jordan Thierry (34:00)
you
Yeah.
Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (34:17)
just really stuck in fear and so we can't strategize. you know, I saw a part of our workforce development is talking to our fear and our classes go there. Our classes are like, how do you get back to your learning brain? Because you can't figure out a career over years if you can't get past what's right in front of you. You have to see farther. So I took the time I saw farther and I saw like I'm a workaholic.
Jordan Thierry (34:21)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
right, that's powerful.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (34:42)
So I need a structure that does not facilitate my workaholism. We have a four day work week at ESQ Apprentice and we have not been any, we've even been more productive, I would say, with a four day work week. I take every Friday off and do things I love like this, but it's me and I'm more balanced. And I'm also a very efficient worker. So I figured out how I work best.
Jordan Thierry (34:47)
Okay.
Wow.
Yeah.
Okay.
Mmm.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (35:02)
And I
created a structure to support efficient bursts of work that's balanced with my life. I started writing more. I started like talking to more people. And I had to be like, you know what? I'm ready for this organization to shut down. I'm not afraid of it anymore.
Jordan Thierry (35:05)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (35:16)
If I can't do it in a balanced way, then it's actually not sustainable and it needs to stop. And once I allowed myself to go there to my worst fear that I would fail this thing and all these people were invested in me and I would let them all down. Once I was like, if it's not sustainable, then it shouldn't be, right?
Jordan Thierry (35:21)
Hmm.
Absolutely.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (35:36)
Once I went there,
Jordan Thierry (35:36)
Absolutely.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (35:37)
a new structure came into mind, new program. It was like, okay, and now I think we got the sauce. We're doing it. So yeah.
Jordan Thierry (35:39)
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Well, you're dropping gems here, Rachel, because I think that's, that's a key to organizational leadership is, especially in a nonprofit space. I believe that, you know, as, as organizational leaders, like we have to always, you know, face the reality, be prepared, acknowledge the fact that this organ, we may need to shut this organization down at some point, right? And
to me that has been a relief, you know, in many ways, right? Because you're like, it's okay if at some point we need to shut this thing down. And it's never come to that point with any other organizations I've been a part of, but being able to acknowledge that it helps like really kind of reframe some of the problems that, you know, maybe I'm facing at that time and also
Rachel Johnson-Farias (36:12)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jordan Thierry (36:32)
you know, kind of take into consideration like, if that's going to be the case, you know, what are we, what's the legacy that we're leaving? What are we doing that's going to really matter right now? You know what I mean? ⁓ And because yeah, I think you can, you know, get stir crazy, drive yourself crazy, run yourself down into the ground, like I said.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (36:45)
Yeah.
Jordan Thierry (36:52)
trying to do something that doesn't really work, that it's either just not helping people or it's just not the right strategy for this moment in time, or it doesn't work for you personally.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (36:57)
Right.
Right, or doesn't work for you. Like I remember Angela Davis
you must care for yourself, because this is a movement and not a moment. And you gotta be here for a while. And I think for a lot of folks, and I would say especially for women and maybe especially for women of color and maybe especially for women of color who grew up in the church in the South, like the sense of obligation and duty is so, it's like I owe the world everything and I don't.
Jordan Thierry (37:10)
Mmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
Rachel Johnson-Farias (37:31)
as
a leader, if you know something isn't working for you, you have to stop them, this isn't working for me. And that matters. And that matters. And that matters, because you got to be here for a long time.
Jordan Thierry (37:37)
Right, right, right, wow.
You know, so now you have, you have some staff now, right? And so can you tell, tell us a little bit about kind of that transition for you, going from someone who did everything to then having people that were, are there to, to you've hired, you're paying to do some of these things for you. But I know with that experience, like,
Rachel Johnson-Farias (37:46)
Yes!
Yeah!
Jordan Thierry (38:01)
You've done it yourself. You've done it your particular way for so long. You know, handing over and trusting someone else with those responsibilities can be a real challenge for lot of founders. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Rachel Johnson-Farias (38:11)
Yeah,
it was challenging indeed. I would say again, I had a foundation with a program officer who was a woman of color.
who made a landmark investment. So we got like, you know, a $250,000 grant and all the money came in at once. And that, you know, was basically what Echoing Green did to get us started. That was like, now you can grow. There aren't a lot of, that was the Stupski Foundation. Unfortunately, they're a spin down. So I don't know if they're taking on, but they're awesome.
Jordan Thierry (38:29)
Wow.
Yeah.
⁓ yeah, but they're great, yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (38:43)
Again, I think could see the infrastructure for freedom and be like, invest. So very grateful for them. And with their support, again, two or three more came that were like, we're gonna give some more. So I was able to make my first two hires. I hired operations and programs first. And operations, I would say is the right.
Jordan Thierry (38:54)
Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (39:03)
first hire. It took a couple of rounds of operations to figure out like exactly how it works because again I have been doing it all myself so I didn't know that operations was like you know basically keeping I kept the lights on but the operations keeps the wheels turning if that makes sense like we had lights on but the car was parked and so I it took a couple of rounds but I finally met someone who was an operations professional.
Jordan Thierry (39:16)
Right.
Mm-hmm, sure.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (39:26)
and didn't actually bring them on as staff, brought them on as a contractor because at full time we couldn't afford it. ⁓ But at part time, an expert can be worth two, three staff members. So I interviewed this person. They were like, my job is basically to keep the wheels running. Everything that you need to enact your vision, I am responsible for. And they took that very seriously. So operations, absolutely great first hire.
Jordan Thierry (39:30)
Okay. Yeah.
really effective. 100%.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (39:53)
And then programs went back and forth. We had a director at one point, but that was a part, was probably a part of me letting go too. Like when I have a clear vision, was met with person who like had their own vision and the visions didn't make a beautiful picture. So ended up like revamping programs as well. And now I have two apprentices. So I have enough.
Jordan Thierry (40:04)
Hmm.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (40:14)
experience, you have to be a licensed attorney five years continuously active with the State Bar of California to supervise an apprentice. So now I can supervise two apprentices and they are my program staff for our pre-apprenticeship accelerator. So I supervise their study and they help get the accelerator going when we go cohort to cohort. And I love the model, it's one of those things, you know, going back to my first generation board where she was like product is king.
Jordan Thierry (40:19)
Okay,
Rachel Johnson-Farias (40:39)
when we hit a snag with like, do we do with the apprenticeship program? If we're not the holistic service provider, what do we do? I was like, okay, let me figure it out. So I have two apprentices now, we're figuring it out. I think we've got something that works. The beautiful thing about apprenticeship in California, it takes four years of part-time study in a law office or judges chambers to be eligible to sit for the California bar. You also got to do some testing along the way. So you have to do monthly tests and then pass the baby bar, smaller version of the bar exam.
Jordan Thierry (40:46)
Mm-hmm.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (41:05)
at the end of the first year in order to continue on to the subsequent years. And so what that means is the two people I hired, I can pay a really lovely wage to work part-time. They can also seek additional opportunities elsewhere if they want, but it's super flexible. Their study is kind of built into their work with me.
Jordan Thierry (41:08)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (41:25)
And so
now I know that as I'm like helping other law firms and attorneys who are like, I want to host an apprentice, you've got to work their study into it. So maybe they're, it's four days, 0.8 FTE, they're doing their law office stuff, but they need a day to study. it's for those who can attorneys who are like, yeah, one day I want them to take over this firm for me or I see the benefit of
Jordan Thierry (41:32)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (41:48)
waiting five years for this advocate who's been raised up in my image and my way and the benefit of that, then I think it works beautifully. but I've got a whole group of women, mostly one guy, hi Clay, who handle social media marketing, an executive assistant, operations.
Jordan Thierry (41:50)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (42:07)
What else do we have? Fundraising and development. That's the thing that, you know, nonprofit directors tend to have to do a lot of, but I hate it. I do not love schmoozing. I do not love like, I also, I don't love anything that feels deceptive. you know what I mean? And sometimes, sometimes luckily I found someone who's able to like.
Jordan Thierry (42:10)
Okay. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (42:29)
walk that line and like knows me and can speak in my voice and she's awesome. ⁓ But that's now my contractor community in addition to my staff ⁓ works and it's kind of working for us. We have very limited resources still.
Jordan Thierry (42:30)
Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah.
Okay, yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (42:44)
I'm still the only full-time staff, two part-time staff, but a whole slew of sister consultants who make this work. Yeah.
Jordan Thierry (42:50)
that's beautiful.
And so final question is, you know, what's, how are you, you know, viewing the work ahead? What are your plans organizationally to, you know, build towards the organization that you want?
Rachel Johnson-Farias (43:04)
Yeah, so the three part answer to that question. One, to continue to pilot or scale our programs. So we've now got three programs, our pre-apprenticeship program, where you get like a taste of the legal profession, you can make an informed choice about whether to pursue apprenticeship. Our paralegal program, because as you might've mentioned earlier, paralegal jobs can be a really steady career. and paralegals often know, it's like nurses to doctors know a lot more than lawyers.
Jordan Thierry (43:25)
Absolutely.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (43:29)
You can find your balance, you can find economic security. The license is always a North Star, but you can still support yourself and your family with a good legal administrative role. So we have our paralegal program. partner with community colleges to get folks a free paralegal certification. And then we have our apprenticeship program where right now it's folks finding the attorneys and then we help them like figure out how to make it work at their firm. And the future,
I would love it if we were like a one-stop shop for, you know, not just the attorneys. Like I would love to have a place where women of color could start their own firms. So like an apprentice, once they get their license, has a safe landing place to start their firm. And then more apprentices would be their administrators and everyone gets economically secure and it grows and grows and we start providing the resources that our communities need and have like little.
Jordan Thierry (44:04)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (44:21)
legal hubs And then, you know, like, I see that for the program side.
Jordan Thierry (44:22)
Mmm, okay. Yeah, yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (44:26)
and placing apprentices in different law firms throughout the state of California. I'd love to do that. But the other thing that I'm really excited about the vision I see, when Roe fell, Roe V. Wade, I was the director of the Center on Reproductive Rights and Justice at Berkeley Law School. And reproductive justice, when I worked at that prison abolitionist org, that's where I became a reproductive justice advocate too because sterilization is part and parcel of the
Jordan Thierry (44:51)
Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (44:52)
prison system, slavery system, genocide, et cetera. So I'm a reproductive justice advocate. A lot of people get stuck on abortion with reproductive justice, but it is the ability to choose a family or not and the ability to raise the families we do choose in safety and with dignity and respect. So all this W.O.C.- force development that I do is that, and with safety, dignity and respect piece. But when Roe fell, I was kind of surprised that there wasn't.
a movement ready to be like, and this is what we were playing, this is what we do instead. Because they have been coming for it for a cool four decades, right? Like it was like, we knew this was happening and then it fell and we were like, what's going on? And so I'm really inspired, especially with this regime and power currently, to not get caught unawares again. I would love to start a policy arm to the work that we do that
Jordan Thierry (45:18)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Kind of new, yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (45:40)
centers the experiences of the women in our program and women in their communities, gets them together to talk about what they need to thrive and then build policy from those needs on up instead of what we get, which is like a busted constitution from the start on down and scraping to try to keep some civil rights. So I'm calling it the Legacy Foundation and it is a direct nod to the Heritage Foundation because heritage is what was, but legacy is what will be.
Jordan Thierry (46:01)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (46:06)
And
I, you know, I don't know, love anything about the Heritage Foundation, but one thing they did do is throw spaghetti at the wall until it stuck. And I think we don't, I don't know that we have kind of a creative legal generator. Right. It was just like, what if we weren't, what if there were no limit? What if we opened up, what if we weren't afraid? What if we were strategically thinking with an endless universe out of abundance?
Jordan Thierry (46:11)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, we're too careful to calculate it. Yeah. Risk averse.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (46:32)
what could stick, what could stick. And I would love to get that going because that was like my 10 year plan. But then these fools got in office and I was like, we might need to up this a little bit. I think there's a lot of folks ready to.
Jordan Thierry (46:32)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (46:45)
for a different world, perhaps a new constitution. Let's start over out of abundance instead of out of scarcity. Let's start over with inclusivity instead of exclusivity, right? So yeah, the Legacy Foundation, our programs currently scaling, growing them.
getting folks jobs to a place of economic security, and then taking those strategic creative people and creating the legacy foundation, a creative space in law where we generate the laws we deserve instead of kind of scraping towards the laws we've been handed. Yay! I mean, speak it into existence. I don't know. Right, right.
Jordan Thierry (47:14)
Ooh, I'm inspired. I love the bold vision. Let's do it. Let's do it.
Speak it into existence. Hey,
yeah, it'll happen. It'll happen. That's awesome. I want to thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today, share your personal experiences as a nonprofit leader and your challenges and the successes along the way ESQ Apprentice. And yeah, this has been really fun. ⁓ think listeners are going to love this conversation and have some really helpful takeaways.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (47:31)
Thank you.
Yeah, likewise.
Jordan Thierry (47:45)
Thank you so much Rachel for coming on the show.
Rachel Johnson-Farias (47:48)
Thank you for having me, Jordan. I appreciate it.