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Host of the podcast Ag State of Mind, Jason Medows, joins the OG3 to discuss his work to bring the mental health crisis to the forefront of the agricultural industry. This is episode 4 of 4 in our mental health month series.
Hosted by members of the University of Minnesota Extension Beef and Dairy Teams, The Moos Room discusses relevant topics to help beef and dairy producers be more successful. The information is evidence-based and presented as an informal conversation between the hosts and guests.
[music]
[cow moos]
Emily Krekelberg: Welcome everybody to The Moos Room. OG3 here and we are joined by our fourth and final guest in our mental health series in honor of May Mental Health Awareness Month. This is a guest that I've been really excited to have on. He is a podcast expert, so he's probably going to show us all up today. We're joined by Jason Medows with Ag State Of Mind. Hey, Jason, thanks for joining us.
Jason Medows: Hey, guys, thanks for having me. Super excited to be here and chat with you guys for a while.
Emily: Yes, we are really glad that you agreed to be on and we're so excited to dive into it. Before we do that, we do have the two super secret questions that we ask all of our guests, so I will let Joe take that away.
Joe Armstrong: All right, super secret question time. We're going to start on the dairy side for sure. We need to know, we ask every guest, what is your favorite dairy breed?
Jason: The one that will integrate the easiest into a beef operation. I'm going to say probably a Brown Swiss.
Joe: Brown Swiss.
Emily: Oh, okay.
Joe: I like that. Surprisingly, quite a few votes for Brown Swiss. Recapping the totals, Holstein's are at 11, Jerseys are at 8. Jerseys are the correct answer if you were wondering. Brown Swiss at five, Montbeliarde at three, Dutch Belted at two, Normande at two. With that, you probably guessed the second question. We need to know your favorite beef breed.
Jason: Gosh. How much time do we have here? They all offer something. I grew up a Charolais guy. We've always been a commercial herd, but when I was a kid, my dad always had Charolais bull, Charolais cross cows. That was before black was the color or just at the beginning, whenever I was a kid and black got more popular. For a mama cow, I'm going to say somewhere with that Angus-Hereford cross is my favorite cow.
Joe: Black Baldy would be your favorite cow?
Jason: Black Baldy. Yes, a Black Baldy is my favorite cow for sure.
Bradley Heins: I think it was a Hereford. I think he said Hereford.
Joe: No, it's not what he said, Brad.
Emily: Oh, no. No, Bradley.
Joe: It's not. He said Black Baldy. You have to be happy with half, half is good. All right, good deal. Vote for Black Baldy. That puts our total: Angus at eight, Hereford at six, Black Baldy at three, Belted Galloway at two, Brahman, Stabiliser, Gelbvieh, Scottish Highlander, Chianina, Charolais, Simmental, Nelore, Jersey, and Normande all at one.
Jason: I'll give a shout-out to Stabiliser, though. That's my bowl of choice.
Joe: There you go. There you go. That would be-- Who was on? Who voted for Stabiliser?
Emily: Was that Amy?
Joe: Yes, Amy.
Emily: Okay, that's what I thought.
Joe: There you go. Shoutout to Amy and the Stabilisers. I will take Black Baldy for sure over the Stabiliser, though. Good deal.
Emily: All right, now that we got that out of the way, we can get into the meat and potatoes of it. Jason, there are a lot of things that we want to cover, and all of these episodes in the series have been kind of long, so we'll try to just keep plugging through all the questions here. First, I mentioned at the very beginning that you have a podcast of your own, Ag State Of Mind, why don't you give us just the quick one-minute rundown of what Ag State Of Mind is? What you talk about on that podcast?
Jason: Wow. One minute, that's tough for me. Even two, that's one of the more challenging questions I probably ever have. Anybody who knows me knows that I can't talk for two minutes on only two minutes on anything, but I'll do my best. My podcast is kind of amalgam of my professional life as a pharmacist, as a medical professional, and my life as an agriculture producer, my passion for agriculture, and trying to bring a healthy lifestyle to the human element of agriculture.
So much of agriculture is focused on the production side, on the crops, on the cattle, on the machinery. I don't know if we do enough on the actual human side of it. The human side to me, is the most important part because you don't have any of that other stuff if it isn't for the human side of it. It started out about mental health because that's where my journey kind of-- I think we'll talk about this later. That's where my journey, my history with this, a lot of stress involved with agriculture and myself getting better with that and wanting to bring that to other people in the same shoes as I. It's blossomed out to more just general wellness and healthiness with the human side.
Joe: I love your show. I've been listening quite a bit over the last couple of months.
Jason: Awesome. Thank you.
Joe: First of all, I really appreciate your show, and I hope you know that people like it and I hope you keep doing it for a long time. One of the things that really surprises me is how open you are with your personal life. I think that's probably why one of the reasons I like the show the most. First, I want to say thank you for being so open. I think it makes it so relatable that you share your own struggles and just everything that's going on in your life. How comfortable or how difficult was that to get out right away and share about your personal life? Have you caught any flak from people in your life about it?
Jason: Wow. It was really hard at first. That's not something you're supposed to do. "Not supposed to do" in quotes. I didn't think you were supposed to do it. It was so hard on me to do it. As far as flak, again, in line with how I present myself and my brand of being very honest and open, I had someone who's very close to me. I'm not going to call anyone out by name, but someone who's very close to me, give me hell over it.
Called me one night and was talking about-- This was before the podcast even. I mean, I had the idea of the podcast but not the-- I'm trying to think back here at what point this was, but I had the idea of the podcast and I was going to start the podcast but I don't think I'd actually released any episodes, but I was on local radio talking about some stuff. I was doing it with a hospital, with my employer and just talking about mental health stuff and mental health in rural America, mental health and agriculture.
This person called me up and just really made me feel really small about it and that I didn't know what I was talking about and almost clipped my wings before I got started. That was really tough. That was a really tough pill for me to swallow and really worried me if I wasn't doing the right thing or not. Thankfully that's really the only pushback of any significance I've experienced. I'm grateful that it was at the very beginning too because it gave me a little bit more an idea of what it was going to be like, but also a little bit of resolve right out at the gate too. Since then I've had nothing but support.
Emily: We are so grateful that you did not listen to that person or take their words to heart. Yes, it can be challenging and a lot of it ties back just to people's own discomfort with it and if they're not ready to share, they're also not ready to listen, which we all go at our own pace with this. I think it's so great that you have chosen to continue with this and share this and share so many other people's stories as well, which I think is a really crucial part of Ag State Of Mind and what makes it such a great podcast.
I also think that your own story with it is really unique. You already mentioned this and, Jason, we were discussing it before we got on air here, but you have this unique perspective as somebody who has a job off the farm as a pharmacist and also being a farmer, cattle producer, all of that. I know you have a horde of kids running around, your wife, so you have a lot of things going on. I just want you to maybe talk a little bit about that duality of being a farmer but having an off-farm job.
People may be thinking that you wouldn't be that stressed because you probably are financially a little more secure. You might have insurance, you get to take a break from the farm. I don't think that that's probably the case, that it's easier or less difficult because of this or the other thing.
Jason: Again, I'm very grateful for what I have and for the life I have, and I don't want it to seem like that. I am probably more secure having an off-farm job, and I have insurance like you say, and that sort of things. Those things are great, but it doesn't stop the everyday stresses that goes on. I work about 25 miles from my home and most of my cows are at home. Some of them are at a farm about seven miles north of here. However far that is away from work, I get a call probably once, twice, three times a year. There's cows out while I'm down the road at work.
That's just a small example of what it's like. My job doesn't allow me to just leave. If I have to be there, I have to be there from starting time to finish time. I'm very grateful. I have a really good starting time and a good finish time, 7:00 to 3:30, which is great hours. That's not lost on me, but at the same time, my schedule has to be so tight and so well planned out, or else I just can't do it. Whenever you throw a wrench into that, it is incredibly stressful.
Then as far as catching markets right-- I remember my dad is like, "Sales here were on Tuesdays, now we'll just catch the market when it's right." It doesn't really work for me because I can't just go load a set of cows on a Tuesday morning because I've got work to do. I have to plan weeks and then weeks ahead of time, make sure nothing's happening on the weekends when-- Like I said, I have four kids who are playing baseball, FFA, 4-H, whatever else is through the year, and it's incredibly difficult to manage all of that.
There's a very unique set of stressors when you have more irons in the fire than somebody who may do it full-time. I don't want to take anything away from anybody who does it full-time, obviously. That has, again, its own set of challenges, but I just want to say that there are the same stresses, but there are also different stresses by doing it part-time or not part-time, but not all the time. Having something else I should say.
Emily: Yes, absolutely. I think I've maybe said it on this podcast before, but I remind people there's no trophy for the person who suffers the most. We like to vent and we want to be the most stressed, we want to have the least amount of sleep, we want to work the most hours in a week. I personally don't think that's necessary. I also remind people that the way we experience stress is really different and we all have different thresholds for it, and we all have different levels of resiliency. What may be the most stressful day in the world to me, may be a walk in the park for you, Jason, right?
Jason: Sure.
Emily: So we can't compare apples to oranges here and we kindly respect that everybody's situation is unique to them.
Jason: Absolutely. Yes, no, you hit it right on the head there in saying that everybody's stresses are unique to them themselves. No one person experiences those stresses the same as someone else. Empathy is key, but it's not always everyone understands.
Joe: I like the way you talk about that everyday stress because I think that one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot is when we talk about stress, anxiety, depression, what I've been relating it to in my medical brain is pain, and that everyday chronic stress or everyday chronic pain that is always nagging at you, that's something that adds up and that small stuff adds up all the time. That can be just as bad or worse than a single-time event that causes a large amount of pain for a shorter period.
I think that that's something that I've been thinking a lot about and I think it does ring true, especially for someone who just on the back of their mind, they're at their day job and they're wondering, "Are the cows out? Did I remember to do everything? Check the waters, is everything frozen up?" That kind of stuff can add up really quickly.
Jason: Sometimes it's like death by a thousand cuts. You got so much going on and, take this last cold snap, which us down south are not used to. We had the, in February where I was having to cut ice three times a day for however long it was, two weeks or something. You guys probably laugh at me about that, but it's not normal for us. It was super stressful getting up at 4:00 in the morning, staying out till 7:00, 8:00 at night doing it. Thankfully I don't calve during the winter. That would've been another whole set of stresses to that.
Just trying to mitigate the stress as much as possible. Like I said, for all these reasons here, for all the things I go on, if I can take a little stress away like I do with not calving in the winter, so pushing this calving back till April or May like I'm doing now, it seems like a small thing, but again it's a huge stress relief to not have to worry about warming up calves when it's potentially going to be below zero temps for however long it was. There's ways around it, but it doesn't mean that it's not stressful in the time.
Emily: I see Bradley giving the all-knowing nod. He out-winters his cows on the dairy in Morris.
Bradley: I agree. You talk about certain stressors at times of years, yes, winter can be pretty stressful, and even the spring, how to manage all that and it can be overwhelming sometimes.
Jason: Yes, absolutely, it can. Not to talk so much about my operation, but another thing I've done is a huge part of, we talk about bull selection and how just these little things can help reduce some stress. I slept for a lot of calving ease bulls because I'm not here to pull calves. If I'm lucky, I see my cows 30 minutes a day, you know what I mean? If I catch something in that 30-minutes to an-hour window, that's a blessing.
I can't be worried about if I'm going to have to pull-- I've got 30 heifers out here and, knock on wood, not had to assist one of them yet because of our intentionality behind calving these bulls. We lose a little bit at weaning time. We don't wean as heavy, but we don't have all those dead calves either. It's a trade-off I'm willing to make. Sorry, I hope that wasn't too specific for you guys, but that's just a thought that came to my mind there.
Emily: That was perfect. Something we talk a lot about on this show, because we talk a lot about production topics and its management, and I really like the way you're meshing together management as a way to mitigate stress for the farmer.
Jason: For sure.
Emily: I think that you have definitely put thought into the decisions you're going to make and not just what's best for the cows, which of course is important, but also what's best for you and for your lifestyle, and given the fact that you are working and only seeing your cows 30 minutes a day. I think that that is really important that these decisions you make now are going to help your operation, but they're also helping you along the way too.
Jason: Right. Dave Pratt always says it, and you said it too, Emily, there's no prize for working the hardest or being the most stressed. So many people wear that as a badge of honor and it's just not so. We should strive to have the easiest life possible, you know what I mean? And make decisions. Making a breeding decision for your cow herd is a decision you make a year or so ahead of time. Being able to make those small little thoughts being a little bit intentional goes a long way in the future.
Joe: I don't think we can avoid talking about it because we only got a few more minutes left. We have a pharmacist here and a medical professional, so we got to get into that talk. In one of your episodes, you were talking about medication, one of your solo episodes. I found it really interesting your thoughts and the bias you had against medication when you were younger and when you were in pharmacy school and how you worked through all those internal biases that you had against it. Can you just talk us through that whole process and what eventually got you over that bias and what got you over the hump of saying, "This is something we need to use?"
Jason: I don't know if it was just a antiquated way of thinking. I honestly don't know what it was about taking medications for anxiety, for depression, any sort of mental health medication. I honestly don't know. You're right. I had such a bias about it and I had just not the greatest opinion of those. I remember even mental health in college was something that I really glazed over. My sister-in-law told me once, she's like, "Well, it's honestly more an art than a science." While I think some of that might be true, there is some definite science behind it.
I think it was with my own struggles when I started, I guess I was really resistant to taking medication to deal with anxiety. I'm close with my provider. It was honestly, and it was like so many of the decisions that are made in my life, it was my wife who helped guide me towards that. She said, "If you had high blood pressure, you would obviously take your blood pressure medication. You know that that works." As a pharmacist, obviously, I know that works. Whatever else may be, if there's something wrong, you have something that can help fix it. Do that. It's as simple as that. It doesn't have to be any more complex, any more complicated than that.
I was so stubborn about it, and I saw it in such a, I guess, negative light as far-- I thought something was weak or broken in me if I had to take these medications. I think when I did, I started taking them, I think it was 2013. It was right after our youngest was born, I believe is when I started medication. Around that time. She might have been pregnant within. I don't remember. It doesn't matter. Around that time. I remember just feeling normal. Normal, I didn't feel like anything was happening. I didn't feel like it was changing me. I just felt normal. That's when I realized that's how they're supposed to work. That's how medications work.
It's crazy that I have to keep telling myself that because I am trained in that profession. It was just like the wool had been pulled from my eyes. I think I have a really valuable testimony to that in serving patients in that I have my own experience with medications. You have no-- I'm sure you probably do. The people who would come see me who want to talk about it, they don't want to be on antidepressants and anti-anxiety medications. They just are able to come talk to me, and I have my own personal background and personal story.
Man, that's really valuable. I want to give credit to Emily, too. She made a Facebook post, what was it? Last year, sometime right after we did the-- About this time last year. That really helped me because even though I was open with it, with people close to me, I wasn't open about it to the masses like I was. I wasn't sharing as much about it on my podcast and on social media. Now after you made that, that really helped me break the damn of that and just add that to my advocacy efforts.
Emily: I'm blushing a little bit over here. [laughs]
Joe: She is, and everyone out there who can't see her. She actually is blushing.
Emily: Little sweaty. I really appreciate that, Jason. That's part of the reason I think why everybody who is an advocate is so adamant about sharing their story because they know it can encourage other people to share their story. Something I know I wrote in that post and that I still say and that I want your comments on too is a large fear about going on medication. It's a fear I had is I don't want to be a zombie. We're very afraid of just turning into something that's on autopilot. We don't really have any feelings. We just go through the motions. I remember saying that to my provider, I'm just afraid that I'm not going to feel like myself. She looked me in the eyes and she goes, "Emily, do you feel like yourself right now?"
Jason: Yes, [unintelligible 00:23:46].
Emily: I was like, "You got me." I have been on medication ever since. It's been, I don't know, about two years or so. Yes, I am myself. I wasn't myself for so long. I'm just curious as to what you think on that. Is that a common concern people have?
Jason: Yes, absolutely. It was one I had, too. It goes back to saying, I just feel normal. I know most people are just listening here. Say you have this steady baseline and it's a flat line, and that's how your feelings are supposed to be. You're supposed to be just even keel. When you're not at that even keel, you get these spikes. These spikes and they go up and they go down. It's literally riding a roller coaster. That's how I felt. That I was up, I was down. I never felt any normal when I wasn't taking the medication. Once I got that medication, they're still-- don't get me wrong, I still have those times where I had ebbs and flows, but the reaction is so much less pronounced. I can get back to even keel so much faster now that I have that medication in my toolbox and I can't speak enough about how important that that is.
Joe: I love hearing everyone's story and I love hearing everyone being open about it. Something I learned in practice as a veterinarian right away is I can talk to one blue in the face about trying to make a recommendation, and that farmer is still going to turn to his neighbor or call his friends, and he's going to listen to his farmer friends before he listens to me in a lot of cases, and that's fine. I think that's one of the best parts about everyone sharing their stories is that farmers listen to farmers and if everyone can share their story-- I think that's why Jason works with his podcast for sure is because he does have his own farm and people are going to listen. It just makes a difference if you've been there, like you said, on the medication side as well.
Emily: This is an easy give-me question, and I'm sure you get asked this a lot, Jason, but from this whole episode, when you think of what you've talked about on Ag State Of Mind, what's the one message that you want farmers out there listening to this podcast right now to get? If they remember nothing else from what we talked about today, what's the one thing you'd want to tell them?
Jason: That everybody's story matters and there's someone out there that no matter how you're suffering, no matter how bad you think you have, no matter how alone you feel like you have it, there's going to be, maybe not someone who's experiencing exactly the same, there are definitely people who can relate it. By sharing your story, by getting out there, telling folks about what's going on, being more open about whatever issues you may be having, you're going to find a lot of solidarity out there. There's going to be people who support you and lift you up.
Like we were talking about at the very beginning, there may be some people give you flak, but there's going to be way more people who are going to be supportive of you. If that can help people get outside of themselves, try to get outside of that comfort zone and share a little bit, man that's super helpful. If I can do it, if I can do these things that I'm doing, anybody can do it, I promise you. [laughs]
Emily: I think that that is a perfect place to wrap up this episode. Thank you again, Jason, for joining us for rounding out our mental health series. If you want to find Jason, he is on Twitter @agstateofmind1. You can also find him on Instagram and Facebook @agstateofmind. You can find his podcast on his website, agstateofmind.com.
We'll leave the plugs there for right now. I am going to give a quick round of thank you's, first of all, to both Bradley and Joe for humoring me when I came up with this idea to do a mental health series for May. I want to thank all of our extraordinary guests that we have had this month. Megan King, Meg Moynihan, Kevin Dietzel, and of course, Jason Medows as well. We hope that you have found these conversations to be helpful, to be educational, to be interesting. We really encourage you to reach out to us if you have questions, comments, or of course, scathing rebuttals. You can do that by emailing us at themoosroom@umn.edu.
Joe: That's T-H-E-M-O-O-S-R-O-O-M@umn.edu.
Emily: Thank you again, everybody. Create a great day. Be well. Be sure to check out all of Jason's Ag State Of Mind information online. Bye. [laughs]
Joe: Bye.
[cow moos]
[00:28:35] [END OF AUDIO]
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