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I welcome Carrington Smith Trabue, former trial lawyer, best-selling author, speaker, single mom, and Founder of Carrington Legal Search.
What if you could hang out with successful women lawyers, ask them about growing their firms, managing resources like time, team and systems, mastering money issues, and more; then take an insight or two to help you build a wealth-generating law firm? That’s what we do each week on the Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast. Hosted by Davina Frederick, founder and CEO of Wealthy Woman Lawyer –– every episode is an in-depth look at how to think like a CEO, attract clients who you love to serve (and will pay you on time), and create a profitable, sustainable firm you love. The goal is to give you the information you need to scale your law firm business from 6 to 7 figures in gross annual revenue so you can fully fund, and still have time to enjoy, the lifestyle of your dreams.
Unknown: Hi, and welcome to the
wealthy woman lawyer podcast.
With us today is Carrington
Smith, terview TradeView, former
trial lawyer, best selling
author, single mom and owner of
Carrington legal search. So for
the past 22 years, Carrie has
advised executives on career and
life and I've invited her here
today to really give us the
inside scoop on legal recruiting
what is going on in the legal
recruiting world right now? And
how we can use that knowledge to
our advantage, and hiring those
eight plus performers on our
team. So welcome, Carrie, I'm so
glad you're here. I'm sorry, I
probably butchered your last
name.
Because it goes with the
territory. No worries.
So thanks for being here,
though. I'm excited to talk with
you. You've been on our books
for a little while, and I've
been looking forward to this.
First, tell us a little bit
about your journey, because you
were a practicing attorney for
several years before you started
this legal recruiting business
in 2000. So tell us a little bit
about you. And how you you know
what, you led you to be a
lawyer? And then what led you to
do this and kind of away from
it?
Sure. Well, I think that, like
many people growing up were so
much better these days with the
internet as having exposure to
lots of different types of
careers. But I grew up the
daughter of a doctor with the
depression, I kind of had like
five career choices doctor or
lawyer or accountant, banker,
you know, teacher that was about
it. So I kind of thought, what
am I going to do and decided
that I wanted to go to law
school, so and it was also that
sort of just I needed to prove
to myself that I could do it
that I was, you know, I kind of
meet that that level. So I went
to Tulane Law School in New
Orleans. And I graduated in
1993. And I don't know what, you
know, the, I'm sure everybody
has different in vintage of
graduation. But the year that I
graduated, it was terrible as
far as the job market. And I was
one of the lucky few to get a
job. The year that I graduated
in Austin, the University of
Texas had a career services
bulletin that they sent out. And
by the way, Career Services
offices are a great resource for
solo and small firm lawyers to
do their recruiting. I'll start
with that. So that that year,
there was only one job
advertised in Austin. And the
firm when I talked to them later
said they received over 300
resumes. Oh, yes. And that the
title of the job was associate
slash client liaison. And so the
partner who hired me eventually
told me that of those 300 250
did not address the client
liaison aspect of the job. So I
was one of 50 that did. And then
he they picked 10 of us from
that group and said, Send us a
letter. Why should they hire us?
So I was very fortunate. I had
recently taken a plane ride from
New Orleans to Austin and had
been lucky enough to sit next to
the former mayor of Austin. Yes,
it Carol Keaton Rhinelander
Mayor a long time ago. And she
gave me her business card. And
so when I wrote this letter to
them, why she Why should you
hire me? I attached her card.
And I said, Why hire me as Carol
Keaton Rhinelander? Oh, well. He
called me he picked up the phone
and called me and said you got
my attention? And I said, Well,
I've just demonstrated, I have
demonstrated that I have the
skills necessary for the client
liaison aspect of the job. And
so and he agreed, and so I ended
up getting that job.
Unfortunately, that firm was
very, very dysfunctional. They
had about 15 lawyers, 1415
lawyers, depending on the time
of year, and they had a former
Texas Supreme Court Justice that
worked there who sexually
harassed me on a regular basis.
Oh, no. At the time in Texas,
the law mirrored the federal
statute, and if you had less
than 15 employees, then you were
not subject to the sexual
discrimination laws. And so I
learned then the reason that
this former Supreme Court
justice had chosen this firm was
because of its size.
Wow, wow, that's crazy.
All right. Now, as a recruiter,
unlike he should be at an
American lawyer, you know, and
law 100 firm, but I didn't
understand that as a young
lawyer. That was a big red flag.
Yeah. So I I'm so because they
were sexually he routinely
sexually harassed me. And I
reached out to a client, I
luckily had those client
relationships. And I asked for a
reference and said, Look, I'm
going to change jobs, I need to
vote with my feet, I need to
move. And the client said to me,
well, wherever you're growing,
work going, and I have 16 more
cases for you. Wow. So suddenly,
as a second year associate, I
had portable business. And I
talked to the other associates
and said, What do I do? And they
said, We're leaving, we're
starting our own firm. Wow. Oh,
yeah. So as a second year
lawyer, I was like, in over my
head, but I had these more
senior associates with me, we
started our own firm. And, you
know, gradually, my reputation
grew. And I was fortunate to
really land some great clients
and get to first share some
cases. But I realized through
that process, that I really
missed a lot of the social
aspects of what I, you know, I
was a very social person, and,
and ended up deciding to go into
exec executive search, legal
recruiting, so that I could use
my law degree, but have more of
a social life as opposed to
being tied to the billable
hours. I know many lawyers hate
that. And so I've been doing
this now. So I was a lawyer
practicing for seven years. And
I've been doing this now for 23
years. So I do bring a wealth of
experience on that. Yeah.
Yeah. Wow. So what made you what
was the pivotal moment for you
to start your own legal search?
Business? Yeah. So when I first
started doing legal search, I
just kind of really was just
looking for any legal search
firm to take me because I just
so desperately wanted in the
field. And so I took the first
job that I was able to get, and
it turns out, it wasn't a great
firm. And I learned very quickly
that they were taking a lot of
my money and not investing in me
as an employee. And so I
received very little mentoring
or training, but they were more
than happy to take more than 50%
of what I was bringing in. And
that didn't seem like a fair
deal to me. So I decided to
start my own search firm. And I
had my own firm for two years.
And then I'm sure many of you
all know, major Lindsey and
Africa. Bob major reached out to
me and through a mutual friend
who I'd worked with at that
first firm, and said, You know,
I know you're doing these
general counsel searches for
Fortune 500 companies, what are
you doing out here on your own,
you need to come work with us.
And I was nine months pregnant.
So I have to say it got me in a
very weak moment. And I went and
worked for them for two years.
But my accountant will tell you,
it was a very expensive learning
experience. So wow, I learned a
lot. But again, I realized I
actually it made more sense to
be out here as a small firm, as
opposed to being part of it.
So what what's interesting with
your story, I do think there are
some people that just are, we're
Mavericks, we're entrepreneurs,
we have that sort of spirit.
And, and we see things when we
go up, because I've had a lot of
experiences where I've worked
in, you know, other businesses
worked in engineering firm,
worked in law firm works in an
agent, ad agency, all of those
things, and, and experience
things that didn't sit well with
me. And a lot of that is what
led me to go to law school
specifically for the purpose of
starting my own business.
Because, like you, I came up my
first career before becoming a
lawyer, I came up in the 90s was
working in firms in the 90s,
there was a lot of sexual
harassment, there were a lot of
people who would take advantage
of young people. There wasn't as
much sharing of information that
you see now in the culture among
people, and the resources that
are available to help you that
are available on through social
media and online now, we didn't
have those now not I thought you
were out here by yourself.
Unfortunately, you're somebody
who's good at relationships. So
you were able to talk with
people and get information, and
they choices but I can see, you
know, like you I've certainly
done that where I've workplaces
and then after a little while
you're like this is something is
rotten near and I have to move
on to something else. And it's
interesting to me that in most
every situation, your solution
was I'm just going to start my
own. Where do you think that
spirit of entrepreneurship or
that level of confidence comes
from? Where you where you just
go, you know, I can do this.
What do you think that
originated for you?
Well, interestingly, so I
authored a book recently during
COVID. And one of the things I
talk about in the book is where
I did Find that confidence from
and I think it's a surprising
place. And that is, I was raped
in college. And yeah, but I have
to say I'm somebody, the title
of my book is blooming, finding
gifts in the shit of life. And
I'm somebody who believes that
the traumas we experience are
actually fertilizer, the
fertilizer we need to grow to
bloom into our greatness. And so
by going back and examining
those, that trauma and other
traumas in my life, I came to
realize that it actually bred a
quiet confidence in me, because
I learned about myself that if I
could get through that I could
get through anything. And so for
me, there really you hear people
talk about, like, the fear of
making that leap. There was no
fear. And I really believe it's,
I like to find the blessings and
the bad things. In that sense.
It really was empowering to me,
because I learned, I could make
it through a lot of really tough
stuff. So I wasn't afraid of it.
It's interesting, you say that I
interviewed someone back, I
think it was last year, another
woman who got a very rare type
of cancer at a really young age
in her 20s. And it and it made
her and it she went into
remission, and then it
reoccurred. So it was really an
ongoing sort of traumatic
situation. But she said the same
thing, experiencing such when
you're faced with life or death
situation, you do develop kind
of like nothing else really
scares you into that level, you
know, so I can see where that
where you took that away from
it. And it's wonderful that you
were able to take that away from
such a traumatic experience.
Because you know, some people
don't take take away that same
thing. Let's, let's jump into
sort of the legal recruiting
aspect. And tell us a little bit
about carrying to legal search,
and what you guys do, the
clients you serve, and all that
you've been doing this since
2000. So you've been around for
quite a while. So I'm sure the
pandemic and all that all that
has affected. So I'm sure you
got a lot of stories. So I get
this idea of what to do how what
you do first?
Yeah, so you're right, I've been
through quite a few business
cycles, right? I mean, I started
my recruiting firm, in 2000. And
then, of course, the internet
bubble burst immediately
thereafter. So I like many, you
know, solo, small, firm owners,
as you know, being having your
own business, you've got to be
constantly adapting and being
creative and figuring out new
strategies for whatever comes
your way. And for me, when the
internet bubble burst in 2000, I
realized and this again, goes
back to not having social media,
barely having the internet. That
the there was a whole group of
lawyers in Austin in particular,
that had no affinity group to
support them. And that
particular group of lawyers were
the in house lawyers. And so at
the time, I was sitting on the
board of directors of the Austin
Bar Association. And with that
huge blow to the economy, there
was a big retraction and
membership. And they were they
were looking for new members.
And they're like, anybody have
any ideas? And I said, Yeah,
I've been doing research I've
been, I had this free time, all
of a sudden, I've been creating
this database of all the in
house lawyers in Austin, I said,
I've identified over 400. But at
the time, we didn't have a
chapter for the Association of
corporate counsel, there
literally was no group to
support these lawyers. And so I
said, I think we should create a
section for the in house lawyers
in Austin. And the President of
the bar said, I love the idea,
and you're in charge. And so
it's always the way with you,
it's always the way when you
suggest or recommend anything,
you just get instantly
volunteered to head it up.
Yeah. And so I recruited a
number of in House lawyers in
Austin to serve as the officers
and I put myself as the
administrator to the group and
set up the events into the
marketing and all of that, and
really kind of just made myself
of service and not in a selling
mode, but just as a partner to
the group. And that group took
off like wildfire. And then the
association of corporate counsel
took notice and decided to
create an Austin chapter and
ended up absorbing that group
into it. Of course, you know,
this is a classic example of I
do all this hard work, and then
they're like, well, but you
can't be involved anymore carry
because you're gonna have to pay
a sponsorship fee because now
we're the association of
corporate counsel, but likely I
do most of the people already.
But that was the beginning of a
really focused practice for
really a big portion of this
time that I've been doing it
I've mostly done in house. So
and what I my strategy has
always been at the same super
sticky which is to find
companies where I've really
aligned with their mission and
values. And then become their go
to outside legal recruiter. And
so like, for instance, USAA was
one of my clients for about 15
years through different general
counsel's HR people, but just
having that alignment of goals
and values, really, I mean, I
knew how to sell USAA, I really
believed in that brand. And one
of their top lawyers left and
went to nationwide, and he's now
the chief legal officer at
Nationwide Insurance. And so
they've been my client now for
about seven years. So it's
creating those long term
relationships and that
stickiness. But then, more
recently, probably in the last,
I guess, five or six years, I
started doing more law firm
partner recruiting. Just because
that's sort of my vintage now.
Right? So I'm 54. Now a lot of
the more senior law firm
partners are at that stage of
the game. Now they're like,
Okay, what am I going to do
next, maybe it's time to make a
change. Instead, I've kind of
gotten more involved in the
partner work. But interestingly,
since we're talking about the
solo, sort of small firms, and
one of my dear friends from the
Austin Bar Association Board
years ago, has her own small
firm, they've got about six
lawyers. And right now we're
helping them find a lawyer. So I
really can speak to working with
the smaller firms.
Yeah, yeah, I something I
interviewed a another legal
recruiter a while back. And one
of the things that we at that
time had just started to happen
is you would have large law
firms that were sort of poaching
from the medium sized firms and
the medium sized sort of sort of
poaching in small firms. And
then the law firms, small firms
are turning around looking and
going, Okay, who am I going to
poach from? There's nobody. And
so the way most people, the
women law firm owners who are
running these firms that are,
you know, 10 employees or fewer,
they may be solos, they may just
have their first hire of a
lawyer, or they may have two or
three, the way they're doing it
is they're doing a lot of
placing ads and hoping somebody
responds to the ads. And whereas
before you'd get hundreds of
resumes, now you're lucky if you
get two or three, and then
you're trying to pick between
those two or three, that may not
be a great fit. One of the
things is very interesting about
what you have said so far, is
how you've had all these
opportunities, because you've
been so good at creating long
term relationships. And I'm
wondering if that is really key
for hiring good, high performing
lawyers and employees to work
with you. Is it? Is it a long
term relationship? Or are you
seeing those working? Where
people, you know, are putting
ads out? Or what are you seeing?
And what do you think that we
can do to sort of deal with
that?
Yeah. Well, you're right, that
is happening, where we're seeing
people kind of go down the chain
as far as poaching from
different firms. And you're
right. I mean, I know there's a
number of firms, particularly
here in Austin that have no
associates anymore, their
associates have just evaporated.
And so I think it's really
important. First of all, to work
with the local law school career
services. So whatever, you know,
whatever city you're in, even if
you didn't go to that law
school, like I went to Tulane,
but I've used the University of
Texas School of Law many times
for different things, not just
placing ads in their, in their
job bulletin or online through
their services, but developing a
relationship with the dean, and
letting them know what you're
looking for. And so they can
have their eye out, because
believe me, they're always going
to want to make sure that all of
their students are employed. And
so it's, it's that it's also
maybe getting involved with the
law school so that if you're
involved with say, like a trial
advocacy program, or something,
you already have relationships
with students, so that if they
maybe didn't quite have the
grades, that they have the trial
advocacy, advocacy skills that
somebody maybe might want to
poach, being involved in local
groups that through the Bar
Association, or women lawyers or
other affinity groups so that
you're meeting people and you
have already you're already
forming bonds. And then also
creating maybe like a Facebook
group, or we have one here in
Austin. That's great. It's
called Mama's. And it's for
women lawyers. And people post
everything from legal questions
to babysitting questions on this
Facebook group. And believe you
need if you were looking for a
young lawyer, it'd be super easy
to post on there and say, Hey,
does anybody know of somebody
that they think really highly up
that they could recommend? So
those are all kind of different
strategies that I will use
Yeah, a lot of a lot of my
clients I know are looking for
they don't have the time to do
the training of a baby lawyer.
And so they're looking for
lawyers with 357 years
experience so they can bring in
experienced lawyers to hit the
ground running. What kinds of
ideas do you have for us, for
recruiting those types of
lawyers who have a little bit
more experience? I think the
Facebook group is a great idea
and networking with other other
lawyers and other women lawyers
who appears? Certainly that's a
great way to do it. What other
kinds of things are there things
that we need to be thinking
about in terms of placing our
ads and what we need to have in
there? You know, I core values,
certain incentives?
Well, I think primarily,
associating yourself with
different affinity groups is
going to be the best way. But
when it comes to placing ads,
knowing that I hired somebody
recently, through an ad, I think
it's really important to write
the ad for the person who's,
who's reading it, as opposed to
your list of job requirements.
So tell them what they're going
to receive from working for you.
So position your ad more about
whether if you are trying cases,
you opportunity to actually have
first chair trial experience,
work with lawyers that, you
know, have done a list, maybe
kind of the type of work that
you've done big successes, let
them know the advantages and
benefits of working for you. I
mean, one of the things I
remember when I wrote out my own
ad, I basically said, you know,
I'm looking for someone, and I
can't remember all the words,
but dynamic, exciting. The world
is your oyster, you know, kind
of letting them know, I'm
conveying in this ad that I'm
not going to be micromanaging
you, I'm looking for self
starter, if you're not a self
starter, and you you don't
aren't good with autonomy, then
this isn't going to be a fit.
But if you are someone, I'm
gonna make sure I put a lot of
things in there that made it
compelling. They're like, wow, I
really want to work with this
person. So it wasn't just do I
read these things, and I could
send in my resume, it was
literally something like, I want
to work with that person. That
sounds like so much fun. That
sounds so cool.
You know, I think that's
terrific advice, because and
there's something really
interesting that that caught my
attention. And that is I think a
lot of times when people are
creating ads, they're thinking
about if they're thinking in
terms of what am I offering this
person, they're thinking about
benefits you get, you know, we
have a 401 K plan here, or you
get Aflac, or we don't have
insurance without, you know,
like they're looking for these
benefits that I think he pointed
out something really
interesting, which is pointing
out to them the citing
opportunity to practice so you
get, you're gonna get the first
chair, on trials, you're gonna
get trial experience, you're
gonna get this. So it's all
those other things that lawyers
want, besides just the things
that we think of as benefits,
monetary benefits are things
like that, like working with a
team of, you know, go getters or
a team who law if you'd love to
go to trial, you're going to
love our team, we love to do
that. Or if you love
transactional work and helping
clients solve knotty legal
contract problems, you're gonna
love this, but finding ways to
make the actual work itself
sound exciting now deciding as
it as that's it can be for
somebody who's enthusiastic and
loves that kind of work. Right.
So I thought that that is a
great tip and a great idea. A
lot of pee I saw in a lawyer
group, it's been a while back
now. But somebody put some job
ad that they wrote, and it was
all about all the things, all
the bad experiences they had
they put in that ad, if you're
this person, don't apply for
this person don't apply. And it
was a and then there are a lot
of attorneys who you know, will
give tests like, you have to
submit a video you have to do it
this way. You have to do this
way. Because they want to see
you follow us instructions. And
there was a time when when the
employer was in the control,
etc. Right where we could or
week we were getting so many
resumes and we had to find some
ways to eliminate people. So
people who didn't follow simple
instructions was it was a way to
eliminate people. But now I
think we have to wait for
looking for those really high
performing people. We really
have to think of it as sales
copy. Almost Absolutely. We have
to sell the position to people
so they know why, why they want
to come work for our firm As
opposed to all the other options
that they're getting?
Absolutely, and it's so much
more than just money. I mean, a
lot of people, you know, you
can, you can be paid a ton of
money. But if you're just
sitting there in your cube,
cranking out document after
document, I mean, that is so
boring, and it's just miserable.
And they may people may do that
for a year or two, but at some
point, they're going to pull
their head up and go, there's
got to be more in life. So it's,
it's conveying that, you know,
you're going to have an
opportunity to do super high
quality work, you're going to
have interaction with clients,
you're going to get different.
The first chair, you're gonna
get to work, arm and arm with
the client on a transaction,
really sophisticated work. So
it's conveying those things and
really putting your your head as
if you are the person reading
the ad, what is going to get me
excited and make me want to
apply and making sure you're
attracting the right people.
That's the other thing. Yeah.
Right. Right. Absolutely. I
think that's great advice. I,
you've written an article
recently on diversity in the
workplace. And I want to talk
about that a little bit, I
think. I know for a lot of
women, law firm owners who are
white women, law firm owners,
and they oftentimes they look
around their communities where
they are. And they're, they're
finding that only other white
people or white women are
applying for jobs in their
community have to be a little
bit more intentional if they
want to create a more diverse
work environment, and setting
out but how does one go about
doing that? What are some ways
that we can do that if we want
to be have a more inclusive and
diverse law firm? We want things
to be different from law firms
that maybe we've worked out
before? I know for me a big
frustration was, you would pick
up the law for the reason I
started this business because I
got tired of seeing a law firm,
you know, pages that were all
white men of what I call the
white men over 50. Club now that
I'm over 50, white men over 60
Club. Right, and their diversity
hire for white women. Yeah. And
so if we want to create the firm
that we've always wanted to
exist, what are some ways that
we can do that in a way that is
not? You know, so over saying,
you know, I'm looking to hire
people of color. Right, right.
So you don't even bother
applying like, what? What are
ways that we can talk about
that? Or do that or other things
we can do to recruit recruit
from people that don't certainly
look like us or things like us?
Sure. Well, I, I think it's
important to spend some time
kind of getting familiar with
the other affinity group, legal
associations. So there are, you
know, there's the minority
corporate counsel Association.
Nam Wolf. You know, there's just
there's so many different groups
out there, the Hispanic Bar
Association, the National Bar
Association, and the PABA. I
mean, Bar Association there.
Yes. Different affinity?
Yeah. So keeping those sort of
on speed dial, so that when you
do post a job, you make sure you
share it with them as well and
say, Look, I'm genuinely
interested, and, you know, all
types. And, and I'd like to
encourage people, in addition to
making sure people don't look
diverse, there's also diversity
of thought and, and approach. So
it's more than just, you know, I
just want somebody that looks
different than me, it's about
really embracing different
approaches to life. And so it's
not just like this. One way of
doing things. I think that's
different culture,
a different way of thinking.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Do you
remember some of the numbers as
I remember reading like, of
course, I've always looking at
stats and things like that. Or
there's something that you wrote
about like the percentages of of
diverse full that? Yeah. Did you
do you remember any of this?
I've never got it?
Yeah, well, so they're, they're
pretty, they've pretty much been
static. And so one of the things
that as much as I mean, we
definitely have seen a huge and
it's been really wonderful to
see a massive increase in the
number of general counsel's who
are female and also diverse in
the Fortune 500 that has been in
in huge improvement in just the
last two years. But what's
interesting is when you go back
and you look at the number of
diverse candidates It's even
entering law school. And then,
you know, when you look at law
firms and law firm partners,
these numbers have stayed the
same. And so one of the things
that his matches, we have all
these diversity efforts, it's
like what's going wrong here?
And the answer is, people need
to have people who look like
them to be mentors. And so what
we need to do is have more of
the diverse people, the diverse
lawyers go back to and get
involved with kids even at like
the high school or junior high
school level. And there's some
really great programs. And I
forget his name, there was a
gentleman and he was at Hewlett
Packard. And now he just changed
to some other fancy job. But he
was the president of the
Hispanic Bar Association at one
point, and there's a program in
Silicon Valley, where they
actually go into elementary
schools and start identifying
kids and sponsoring and
mentoring them through junior
high and high school through
college. I mean, it is a long
term program. But basically,
they really want people to see
that there's a path out of
poverty or whatever their
situation is, and provide them
with the guardrails to get to
law school and then succeed
later. So it's a long term
process, it's not as simple as
just recruiting more people to
law school even, you want them
to succeed in law school. And in
order to do that, you've got to
start at a much younger level.
So it's about really being
committed to it and looking at
other creative strategies,
because it's, it still is going
to be a long term effort.
A number of my clients are one
of the reasons that I started
this business is because of my
own dissatisfaction with what I
saw to be very traditional model
in the legal industry. And like
I said, the partners were white
men, and it was in the 90s, when
I was sort of my first career, I
worked for a law firm, and there
were their idea of diversity
inclusion work to start hiring
women and letting women like
become pop partners, right?
Until then, they were hiring
women, but you know, who was
getting to be partner? Yeah. And
so it's still a very frustrating
and slow process. So for me
being the rebel that I am, I
said, you know, I want to
support, I want to support women
who, from all different walks of
life, if you want to create to
perhaps be the name partners and
have their names on the door, I
think we're the way we're going
to have to do it is from the
outside and starting our own
firms. Because you know, there's
only so much of begging for
support inside of a large firm
that you can that you can do.
And then after a while, you need
to like very much like what you
did, you walked away from a
situation started your own
thing. So a huge encourager of
starting your own. But then also
thinking, when you start your
own firm, and you start hiring
people, whether you are a person
of color, or you're white
person, you know, whatever your
background is, looking at
otherness and saying how can I
have other people here from
different walks of life,
different ways of thinking,
different cultures, different
upgrades? Because I think
clients will be better served?
Absolutely, by that, you know,
and I do like you said, I have a
client who's wonderful to alter
a law firm. And she has started
at a very young age, just
mentoring kids at her community.
And she's not a mom, she doesn't
have kids yet, but she makes it
a point to go and be an example
to kids and her community of
success and what it looks like
so I do see where that is super
important. And then isn't in a
more immediate term looking be
more intentional, I think you
have to be more intentional
because it'd be very easy just
to say well, this is these are
the only people who applied to
my job offering as opposed to
actively recruiting which is
what recruiters do so we
actively Carew Yeah. So from
your, from you actively
recruiting are you using? Do you
use LinkedIn much as a tool? I
know, recruiters really like to
use LinkedIn as a tool.
Yes. And let me give my little
pet peeve on that. That is a lot
of people will just put on there
like I work at Sullivan and
Cromwell and like, that's great.
What do you do? What section are
you in? What are your you know,
what give me like a deal sheet
or a representative lawsuits or
I mean, give me some color and
then what you do Labor
Employment Do you just do what
Wage and Hour do you do
employment litigation like? So
when I'm looking if I just see a
firm name that tells me nothing?
tells me nothing. It tells
clients nothing. So I, you
really, whether it's to get
business because you're
marketing yourself, or it's just
to be, as I like to say like
with the universe, just being
open to opportunity, make sure
you put a lot of information on
there that conveys who you are,
what you do, the level of skills
that you have, whether you'd
like first chaired or not, you
know, whether you've run m&a
deals on your own, whatever it
is, make sure that you include
that information, because that's
going to be critical. Whether
it's somebody looking to hire
you or or hire you way.
Do you think that attorneys have
a fear of, you know, they know
that there's attorney client
privilege and confidentiality,
so they have a fear of if I put
something on there, people are
going to be able to make
connections, I'm gonna get into
the bar or anything like that.
I don't think it was partly
laziness. I think that lawyers
have a huge fear of selling.
But yes, that would be true.
That would be and
I can speak, I can speak for
myself, I read. Um, I think it's
Daniel Goleman. It's a book
that's to sell us human. That
book, every person listening to
this podcast, please go get
your book, to sell us human.
Yes.
And it, he talks about how every
one of us even like the the
least salesy person on this
planet is selling at some point.
And so he walks you through that
to the point you I left reading
that book is, I guess I'm
actually in sales, and I didn't
know it. And it made me once I
took ownership of that I looked
at what I was doing very
differently, and how I
approached things very
differently. But for some
reason, particularly with
lawyers, we feel like selling is
dirty. And that is not true. So
remove that from your thought
process. Yeah, to Sell Is Human,
you do it every day, all day
long, you don't even know you're
doing it. And so when you read
this book, it will empower you
and change your view on that.
Well,
that's wonderful. I will, we
will include the link in the
show notes, along with the link
to your book blooming, which I'm
eager to read and hear about
your philosophy and story. And I
love your subtitle for that. So
before we wrap up today, what
leave us with one gold nugget as
women law firm owners who are
looking to create really get
that t cultivate that team that
is a high performing loyal team
who loves their work and loves
to work with us. What would be
123 things that we need to be
focused on to cultivate that
team?
Yeah, well, I think the first
thing is, as human beings, we
tend to hire people like
ourselves. And that is a very
flawed thing when you're looking
to create a team. Because if I'm
a quarterback, I can't hire five
other quarterbacks, we're not
going to work. So it's, first of
all starting out and identifying
your own strengths and weak
strengths and weaknesses. And
then realizing what it is you
need to add to create your team
that's going to fill you out,
then as you hire, don't just
hire to like, Oh, I like that
person, really evaluate their
strengths and weaknesses and
what they bring to the team. And
make sure then that you you
create a well rounded team that
meets a number of different
needs, where you have different
subject matter experts, where
they feel like this is you know,
they can take ownership of
something and run with a ball on
a particular subject or
different resource or process in
the office. And then open and
honest communication is key. And
so creating that psychological
framework in the office where
people feel safe, talking about
their, their needs, that
processes know what's going on,
and they don't feel like they're
going to be judged or criticized
when they bring something up. So
strong communication, shared
values. Collect a spirit of
collaboration, these are all
things that are really really
important.
Right? I actually am so I always
get other people to help me hire
because I am such a relationship
oriented person. Yes, that I
usually find something I like
about most people. Yes. And I
tend to gravitate for people who
are like me, yeah, who are, you
know, artistic and creative and
love to chat all those things.
leads, and people I really need
on my team, like I have a
virtual assistant who I got
someone to help me hire her, she
is very much an executor. And I
can send her anything and she
just executes it and does it.
But she's doesn't have a
personality like mine. And so I,
I sought help. Because I think
that sometimes we think we're
the best person to hire people
to work with us. And sometimes
we're not. That's where
recruiters, HR coaches, those
kinds of people's Can, can
really come in handy in helping
us hire people for our team.
Because we have blind spots
about our own, you know, who
were needing to fill in the gaps
for us, you know, because these
are things that we don't like,
for instance, you know, if
everybody has listened to my
podcast knows, I don't like to
do bookkeeping, but I need
people I need bookkeepers in my
life. You know, I need
accountants in my life, I need
these people. And our
personalities are very
different, but I need them. And
I often need people to help me
identify who these these people
are right? Because I don't see
them in the same way. So I do
think that's terrific advice for
people and also to seek help,
you know, it stopped trying to
do your strike may not be in
hiring people might certainly is
not the whole thought of
interviewing and writing an ad
and all of that is not for me.
So I hire people usually to help
me with that. Right? Because
it's just something I don't love
to do, right. So there are a lot
of resources out there.
Certainly carry to legal search
is an option too. You may not be
able to help some people but
there may be some people reach
out and asked you never know
right? It may be a good fit for
you to reach out and ask that.
Tell us how we can connect with
you. Find out more information
about Carrington legal search
and connect with you if we need
to.
Sure. Yeah, so on LinkedIn on my
profile is under Carrie spelled
ca ri e Smith TradeView. And of
course tribe use tra bu II. You
can find my work website which
is Carrington legal.com. And
also, you can find me on
Instagram at Carrington, ATX, or
Austin, Texas. Lots of different
resources there. So
cray cray, we will include all
that in the show notes too. So
people can just go there and
click and connect with you. And
also, we'll share a link to your
book and the cell is human book.
So anybody who's interested in
reading that, I've got to get a
copy of that. I'm curious. I've
heard of it before, but I've
never read it. So thanks for
sharing that. I appreciate you
being here today. Carrie, I've
enjoyed it so much. Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.