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The iGaming Leader Podcast with Leo Judkins uncovers the human side of the iGaming industry's most successful leaders. Join us as we explore the untold stories, challenges, and triumphs of the executives shaping one of the world's most dynamic sectors.
Each week, we dive deep into conversations with C-suite leaders, founders, and directors from global betting firms and innovative startups. Our guests share their authentic journey to the top, revealing pivotal career moments, leadership philosophies, and personal strategies for sustainable success in this high-pressure industry.
More than just another business podcast, we focus on the crucial intersection of wellbeing and high performance. Discover how industry leaders maintain peak performance while managing stress, work-life integration, and team dynamics in an industry that never sleeps.
Whether you're an aspiring leader, current executive, or passionate about the iGaming sector, each 30-minute episode delivers actionable insights to help you thrive in this fast-paced environment.
Subscribe now to join a community of high-achieving iGaming professionals committed to making this industry not just successful, but sustainable for its leaders.
I want to hang in there because I think it's very important for other young women to see that it's possible. It's possible to go all the way to the top and do that with family and with children too.
Leo Judkins:Welcome to the iGaming Leader, where I interview industry leaders to get their insights on what it takes for us to thrive in this fast paced, high pressure environment. I'm your host, Leo Judkins, and today I'm joined by Petra Zackersen, somebody that has such an interesting story, having worked at McKinsey, move in to becoming a diplomat, and then moving into iGaming where she's reached the absolute top as a woman in a male dominated industry. She'll share her story and insights on what it took to get to where she is today. So let's dive in. Hey, Petra.
Leo Judkins:Welcome to the iGaming Leader podcast. Really great to have you here. Super excited to talk to you today, and hear your story.
Petra Zackrisson:Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Leo Judkins:Very curious to hear, about your journey. And what I'm so intrigued about is how did you move from McKinsey to diplomat to iGaming? What triggered that entire transition? I think it's a great place to start. Must be such an interesting story.
Petra Zackrisson:Yeah. I don't know. Sometimes I said that I'm slicked on a banana. I don't know how I did it. I didn't have a clear career plan.
Petra Zackrisson:I started off in McKinsey, more or less, by friends saying that you should apply, and I I I will go there. And, and then I had 10 years as a diplomat working for the minister of foreign affairs around the world. The common thread was always business development. I love international business development. I love cultures, new cultures.
Petra Zackrisson:Really curious about how to understand consumers and local market, specifics and so forth. And then also having product management within me all the time, like a combo of strategy and execution. And then I got called by a headhunter saying that Beto was recruiting for a new management team. They had a specific desire to have a woman in a very male role. That person should come from one of the top management consulting companies.
Petra Zackrisson:I had McKinsey there and got recommended by someone. I still don't know who. And that was how I started. I thought if they called the wrong person, I said I had no experience of vetting whatsoever, or I have, but not from the industry. I also didn't really come from online.
Petra Zackrisson:So it was a little bit of a mystery, but that was not what they were looking for. They were looking for someone that was really good on execution and product management and had that kind of sharp eye for both the the strategic part, but also how to get things done. But that was how I ended up within the industry.
Leo Judkins:Love it. I'm really curious to hear how that shaped your approach maybe to coming into iGaming. That must have been so different from somebody that maybe has had 10 years of experience before transitioning into a leadership role. How specifically did your experience as a diplomat and and from a consulting background influence your leadership style or your approach when you got into iGaming a bit?
Petra Zackrisson:I think with a management consulting background, one of the things that you really you get really good at is to quickly understand a new industry, to ask the right questions, to listen a lot and be very attentive, so be a quick learner. So that was what I did. Obviously, I was a rookie. I didn't have the 10 years of industry experience, but I was really good at at asking the questions and quickly understanding what was the real thing. They didn't bring me in for the industry experience.
Petra Zackrisson:They brought me in to to be very good on running big projects, including acquisitions, integrations, migrations. All type of projects was the key thing. So there, I knew that I was really good. So that skill set I had already. Obviously, a very different climate coming from being a diplomat, trying to do trade relations between different countries and so forth.
Petra Zackrisson:But as part of that role, I was on the trade side. I was responsible for how to help Swedish companies enter new markets. That was very similar to some of the projects around expansion. What is the mindset you have to think about and what are the pitfalls when you go into new markets and when you have to approach a new culture? So even if it sounds like a very big difference between being implemented more on the, you know, public side of things versus the industry, it was a lot of skill sets that were very much in common between them.
Leo Judkins:So you've worked and lived across Europe, Africa, South America. What are some of the biggest challenges that you've seen from just moving around in different countries? Gaming industries full of expats. What have been some of your biggest challenges in moving around?
Petra Zackrisson:The challenge first and foremost, is the personal challenge. You become a nomad, that you you had to be you had to create in your safety or you had to be your house or your home had to be where you are, even if that kind of changes and the country changes all the time. So you had to be very comfortable with change. People that are not comfortable with change, they will have a hard time in that kind of life. That also includes your family, which is why when we worked for the Minister of Foreign Affairs, my husband at the time was interviewed to see who will he be and how will he support me and how will he be feeling about actually moving around.
Petra Zackrisson:I think that's really important. Sometimes you forget that, at least when you get into the age of having a partner or children. You're not only 1 person moving, but many. If the family is not happy, no one else will be happy either. You have to be very open to new cultures and wanting to understand the new culture and adapt your leadership style, which is very difficult.
Petra Zackrisson:Some things you can adapt. Other things you just have to be very clear on who you are and being aware of that. And also speaking to your teams around, this is who I am. I will be honest. This is how I be authentic.
Petra Zackrisson:And I'm open to feedback, but I will not change. I can change because this is me.
Leo Judkins:I love that, Pedro, because in every interview I do, that authenticity always comes back, right? Just being true to yourself. And I think especially when you're managing in a multicultural environment and adapting to different cultures, it can be very difficult. It can be very easy to forgo yourself a little bit and be someone that perhaps you're not. And that is inevitably gonna lead to significant problems in your well-being and your leadership style.
Petra Zackrisson:And you will not be trusted because it will be visible that you're not yourself over time. At least that's how I see it.
Leo Judkins:Is that something that you learned straight away? Is that something that you learned the hard way? Is that something that you've seen in others that you aspire to? Like, how did that form itself over time?
Petra Zackrisson:I think I learned it the hard way. You learn by experience. Trying to be someone else, especially in the younger years, when you start, you think you have to do something specific because that's what you're told. I started in a pretty tough environment. McKinsey is not exactly soft and easy.
Petra Zackrisson:At that time, it was a very demanding environment to be in. And what I felt was that I don't want to be like them. I don't want to be that type of leader. That shaped me and made me reflect. I've been working with myself a lot, trying to learn who I am.
Petra Zackrisson:I'm super passionate. And when I get into that mood, it's really hard to control. I don't think I can control myself in that way, even if I try. Yeah. I learned it the hard way.
Petra Zackrisson:I I can't be anything else but authentic. It is just who I am. Either you hate it or you love it or if you are in between with me, unfortunately, but that's how it that's also where you had to be more more selective on what kind of environment do I perform in, what kind of manager do I work best with, how should my team complement me based on who I am with my flaws and positives? What do I need around me to have high performing teams?
Leo Judkins:I love that, Petra. Great answer. One of the things I'm really curious about is when you first moved into iGaming, what were some of the surprising things that you noticed? What are some of the things that you perhaps didn't expect that you ran into and battled through?
Petra Zackrisson:I was excited to see the abundance of data, how much data is actually being collected in the companies, and what you can do with that data. So that was one of the things that really attracted me. I was surprised to see that they were not as good as I thought they were going to be. And and by mean that, I think that there is so much opportunities to do so much better. A lot of companies that I worked with before would die for the data that we have access to in our industry and in the online, not least.
Petra Zackrisson:Because we see the footprints or we can see the footprints of the customer. We can know a lot about them. And if you start to play around with that data and have the right tools and people, you can see that they're really thriving. So for me, the access to data was a big surprise on how much data we actually had access to. And maybe the lack of understanding of actually using that data was the surprising part.
Petra Zackrisson:And also to a certain degree, the quality of leadership, and then it was a little bit less innovation. And I think that's that came from the come the industry had done so well, even if they were not great, they didn't have to adapt so much for the customer. They didn't have to be local because they were thriving anyway. That is a very dangerous place to be in. Coming from other industries before, It was a good thing because you come in with a different mindset and say, guys, you're lucky to have all of that, but we're not working with it.
Petra Zackrisson:So let's start to work with that.
Leo Judkins:Yeah. Yeah. I love that because you grow through your challenges. And when you're on a road where there's very few challenges, there's no real reason to innovate. And I think that's very true for the past.
Petra Zackrisson:You don't
Leo Judkins:need to. One of the things that, Dima talks about he does the 15 minute last 3 podcast. He he talks about, how important it is to hire from the outside and to get new blood into the industry because it's quite insular. And I think it's often the cause for a lack of innovation. What are your views on that?
Petra Zackrisson:I agree 100 percent. When Betson, Oleks Bengtsson, was a new CEO and recruited his management team, he had a philosophy to take someone from the best company within that skill set or functionality. So he looked across the different positions, CMO, CTO, so forth. Who should who are the companies that are best at this today? I want the person from that company.
Petra Zackrisson:Yeah. And I think that it's a bit bold to do that. Then you can say, did they have enough industry experience? But he also brought in a few persons that had that industry experience. I think it's super important to bring in certain skill set.
Petra Zackrisson:There has to be a mix though. It cannot be only people from the outside getting the passion, the mentality of the punter, really understanding what's going on in the head of a gamer, what are they looking for, who is this user. So I think it's super important that everyone understands that, But then I think it's good with fresh blood and we need to this kind of, I call it cross pollination, need to mix and that's where you get the best results.
Leo Judkins:One of the things I heard you talk about is small incremental changes when it comes to diversity. Specific initiative or example of of how you apply that and the impact of those small changes in diversity? Referencing that cross pollination you're talking about, how important is that and what examples personify that?
Petra Zackrisson:You mean the cross pollination by different industries or by genders or Both.
Leo Judkins:Yeah. Both. So diversification in general. Yeah.
Petra Zackrisson:I think there are many examples of that. I've been working quite a lot with gender diversification.
Leo Judkins:Yeah.
Petra Zackrisson:But I'm also bringing in people from the outside. Gender diversification is financially sound to have a diversified team that reflects your audience, and that reflects the target group that you want to target. And if you are a consumer goods product or service company, it's important. Today, most companies ignore 50% of the population, more or less, because it's very man oriented. And when I speak to people in the industry, they say, and the men mainly, they say that it's hard to motivate a man to be as passionate about the female user, which is interesting.
Petra Zackrisson:But it explains a lot because if that's the case, and we know in sports media, 85% are male, that's also going to reflect in what they're writing about and what they're interested in. And in gaming, it's a similar thing. If all are men working with sports or within the trading team and so forth, there will be very little focus on the female side. So I think it's good if you have target audiences to make sure that your management team or your teams are reflecting the audience that you're targeting. If you're only going to reflect if you're only going to target 20 year old male to 20 to 40 year old male, then it's fine to have that kind of employees as well.
Petra Zackrisson:But if you want to have a more diversified target group, then I think that should also be reflected in the team that you build up. Yep. And this is about cross pollination. Looking at our industry, we are a young industry. There are a lot of better examples out there that has been in a far more competitive environment for a long time.
Petra Zackrisson:They are better set for the challenges and will bring in their experience. Things that have failed in other industries before, they can bring that as examples to our industry.
Leo Judkins:Okay. So Petra, I wanna ask you about, diversity in organisation. What are some practical things that leaders can do to promote more diversity and help, organisations actually establish that?
Petra Zackrisson:A few of the things that I've seen working is that often I get to hear there are no female candidates. And then my question is, how hard did you look? The practical thing that I can do is an as an HR or as, as the management team that you actually agreed on that. If you ask a headhunter or someone to present you candidates, if there are 3 candidates, at least one of them has to be a woman. And if you say, oh, but we can't find out search harder, or work with another agency that can find those candidates.
Petra Zackrisson:Because I think at this stage today, there are plenty of good women. You just have to search a little harder. So that's one thing. This is biodiversity. It's not the female question.
Petra Zackrisson:It is a question for management, which means that the majority that we have to talk about here are male. Everyone has to be trained on bias and how bias impacts us when doing into scrutinising CVs and so forth. Training in bias and having proper discussions around what you have to look for and how do you actually encourage more female applicants and so forth. Already in McKinsey, in the early stage, I worked with female recruitments. Women didn't apply for McKinsey because it was seen as a very male environment, and they didn't apply because they didn't think they would have a chance anyway.
Petra Zackrisson:So they had already disqualified themselves before even applying. Classical, unfortunately, gender difference. So we trained women in only women events we created to train them on business casing, showing them that it's not dangerous. It's not something they can't do, to boost them so they would apply. And that I think is also the way.
Petra Zackrisson:You had to be more conscious and you had to work on training. Same goes for internal promotions and everything else. There is a tendency, if you get a male CV, you can deduct 25% of that he hasn't done anyway. If you have a female CV, you can probably add at least 25% that she haven't put in there and that she can do and have. And if you have that kind of mindset, you also understand that you have to treat women and men differently when you promote, how you encourage, and so forth.
Petra Zackrisson:Because we're still in a very male environment where most of the criterias and how we look at things are predominantly male. Then there are AI tools on how to neutralize CVs and so forth, not knowing whether that's a foreign name, whether that's a female name or anything, but just look at the city as such. So there are plenty of goods and very hands on ways to work with this, but it has to be done consciously.
Leo Judkins:Yes. That I was just gonna say that. That's the key message. Right? It has to be proactive.
Leo Judkins:And I think one of the big things that you've said is understanding your own bias or helping other people understand their biases and really getting that. We all see the world through a specific lens. None of us are neutral. Although we feel that we are, none of us are neutral. Understanding that lens for ourselves and being open and honest about that is key here.
Petra Zackrisson:It's nothing wrong with the lens. It's just that you have to know how you view the word, and maybe it's not the only way to view it. If you have a management team with 7 people, 6 of them being made, maybe they have a lens that is very similar. Yes. And then you have to broaden that lens in order to get in a different type of profiles and so forth.
Petra Zackrisson:The industry is moving forward. We are getting in more women. But if we still lack on their leadership, they're not getting all the way to the top. And the question is why do they not come all the way?
Leo Judkins:Great example. I I love that. And you in a high performance role in a very in executive roles, board roles, it must have been challenging at times for you as well in in what what is predominantly a male dominated industry, which has been tried to change to something that is far more diversified? What is some of the challenges that you've personally run into, and how have you battled those?
Petra Zackrisson:It has been challenging. Yeah. It is still challenging because you're often a minority. And it is true that women and men tend to think differently. That is also why it's such a strength to have a diversified team or a gender diversified team.
Petra Zackrisson:The good part is that it's a modern industry. So even if it's still few women or too few women, especially at the top, there is not a long history in the industry. It's not the same as working in the heavy industry, mining industry and so forth. But I still think that has been challenging in most companies. One of the things that I brought with me from McKinsey was looking for female role models, and I couldn't find any in McKinsey at the time.
Petra Zackrisson:I want to hang in there because I think it's very important for other young women to see that it's possible. It's possible to go all the way to the top and do that with family and with children too, and with interest outside work as well. So that's some things. But, I mean, I've been through everything from sexual harassments to always being, the one that is in a little bit being a minority means that you're more vulnerable. If there is something that should happen, you're the most vulnerable person because you're the one that is different from everyone else.
Petra Zackrisson:You may be a bit more challenging to work with because you don't think like the others. That will always put you in a challenging position.
Leo Judkins:It also makes you a challenger and gives you the opportunity to shine a different light on something. If you're strong enough in your shoes, it goes back to that authenticity we were talking about in the beginning.
Petra Zackrisson:Yeah. Yeah. It is. But it's also about you you can only do that to a certain level because you also need to be nourished. We all need to feel like we are trusted.
Petra Zackrisson:We need to feel safe when we work in an environment. Everyone wants to be part of a team. And I think that is the main challenge. If you do not feel part of that team, it becomes really hard. So it's very true that I am a challenger and I will always be a challenger, but it's also important to find who will give you the energy to continue and how do you create a good environment with some trusted people that can boost you, support you, and give you the energy to continue?
Leo Judkins:I love that. But there's gonna be people that are both in that environment and in the opposite environment. You must have experienced the same before in in different roles. What are some of the important things that, as a leader, you can do to really establish that culture around you, both upwards, downwards, sideways, to feel that you're safe, that you're valued, that you're in a top sports team almost?
Petra Zackrisson:I think it's important with feedback. It's important to tell people what they are good at and what their strengths are and how they are contributing. But it's also important to tell them what they could do better. It is important to create a safe environment in terms of actually listening and that they feel they can tell you anything, be open with you, and give feedback. I'm an extremely direct person.
Petra Zackrisson:I also believe that I can take very direct communication. I'm very open to my team that they should tell me. And I know that I can run over people in certain situation, and they need to tell me that. They need to help me with that. So I'm asking them for help also.
Petra Zackrisson:And I think that showcase also that they feel a little bit more comfortable with actually telling me about it. But it's the building that trust is really key. And maybe allowing to be a bit more personal, sharing. I try to share my weaknesses. I'm trying to share my experiences, trying to be very open around things that have gone wrong and so forth in order for other people to see, like, even if she got to this level and everything, she had the same situation as me.
Petra Zackrisson:She also made mistakes. She also been feeling really weak. She also been feeling, 'I can't do this. I can't do that longer. I don't know how to.
Petra Zackrisson:I feel I don't feel well in this environment and so forth. So I think that is also and coming back again to the intensity of actually being daring to be human and daring to be, to being you.
Leo Judkins:Yeah. And being unapologetic about it, right? You're saying, this is just me. I'm direct. You have to tell me when that happens.
Leo Judkins:It's not like you're making excuses for it or trying to be someone else. It's about openly communicating about it. Me, I really love that. You've worked in established companies and start ups. What are some of the traits that consistently predicts success in iGaming?
Petra Zackrisson:The people is the key factor. To have the right people and the right team, it's really important. Obviously, the leader behind it or the founder is a is a critical person, but the ability to recruit, attract, and retain the team is a key factor. And then it is grit or it's persistence. It's true.
Petra Zackrisson:It takes a lot of hard work. It takes a lot of failures to learn and to get better. So that kind of continuous improvement mindset is really important. Understand that it's the people that will make the success. And very clear focus on your customer to really understand your customer or the market with your customer, where you are acting.
Petra Zackrisson:And listen carefully. What is it that they are asking for? And how can I deliver that to them?
Leo Judkins:So you're talking about customer centricity, grit. Yeah. Are those key behaviors that you would look for in someone that is aspiring to become a lead leader or is or trying to put themselves forward in a company? What are some of the skills and behaviors that you typically look for and so on?
Petra Zackrisson:The perseverance, I I always look if you look at the survey, I I try to see what they have been doing before. I love if they also have a sports career or any interest where they have had a very strong interest and pushed forward and really worked hard to get something. So I'm looking for how did they get different different roles or jobs or how did they do it? So what kind of learnings could they have with them? It's important for me who they are as a person because if it showed me if they have the drive, the drive and the push to actually push forward or deal and then get up, that's a key factor.
Petra Zackrisson:I like when they've been in different things. I think that's much better than someone that had just done one thing. I don't like if they have jumped around too much because then it shows me that they can they really stay on? Or are they just every time they they hit something that is a little bit challenging or something, they will just leave and and do something else? Because, obviously, they will do the same with me.
Petra Zackrisson:I'm looking for that kind of person that has shown that they can stay on and actually do something. It depends on who I have on board already. So I'm always looking to try to complement my team or complement if I start to build a team. So I'm looking for someone that has what I don't have or someone that can contribute to the team. Just in the same way as you build a soccer team, you have one goalkeeper, you have your defenders, you have to have someone that can score and so forth.
Petra Zackrisson:And same goes, in your team.
Leo Judkins:One of the things that we talked about before we started recording was around long term vision versus short term, how that's sometimes difficult in gaming specifically. Right? How, we you know, we wanna achieve short term results, but we also have to have a long term vision. Like, how do you balance that as a leader in your role?
Petra Zackrisson:I think it's extremely important that you have a very clear vision on where you want to go. Regardless of short term goals, that vision has to it has to be very clear to everyone what is it that we're trying to achieve. And also what are the goals and the key objectives? So I work quite a lot with this that you break down and say, okay, if this is where we want to go, what do we need to get there? And then you break that down into key objectives and tasks.
Petra Zackrisson:I think it's important to help to actually to make it, like, kind of structured. So you can see I need to do these things now short term in order to reach my long term goal. It is challenging, especially if you work in a listed company. You have your analyst that is on on you. Every quarter, you had to show what you've done, how you delivered, and everything else.
Petra Zackrisson:And that that is a challenge. It's not always best for the company to have that kind of situation. I I think I I told you before that I prefer to work in a private company than a listed company. You are more liberated to actually have that long term thinking. You can afford to fail 2, 3 quarters because you know that you're working on the right things that would deliver in the end.
Petra Zackrisson:You don't have that kind of benefit. If you're listed, you have to deliver every single quarter. Then it becomes extremely important that you are good in your forecasting, when you set the the expectations to the analyst and everything, that you're trying to put that at the moderate level where it's where it's achievable without becoming a burden, or forcing you to take short term decisions that may not be the right thing long term, just in order not to be slaughtered at the stock exchange.
Leo Judkins:One one of the things you mentioned earlier in our talk is about, how you wanna be an example and a and a mentor to others. I'd like to turn that question around. What are some of the mentors and examples that you've looked up to in your career? What are some of the values and traits that you've really gone to appreciate about them and perhaps that you've even mirrored yourself?
Petra Zackrisson:I think I've been lucky having a lot of good managers. I have had managers that I I didn't appreciate as well. But especially early in my career, I had a lot of good managers that trusted me. They hired me and fought hard to hire me because many times I was a woman and I was young. I was the youngest trade commissioner when I started in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
Petra Zackrisson:He had to fight hard to get me in because they said she's too young or she's doesn't have experience. Him fighting for me obviously created an extreme loyalty for me. I was super loyal to him, and he showcased the same spirit he had when he hired me. He showcased during my entire career by supporting me and, trusting me, saying I'm here when you need me. And I know he was always backing me up.
Petra Zackrisson:He trusted me enough to let me do my thing. So I think that the trust is one thing that I really, appreciated and at the same time felt like I got you back. Yeah. And I think that's important. That's something that I try to mirror in my own leadership.
Petra Zackrisson:Obviously, not always successful, but that's what I'm aiming for. Another thing is humble around that you don't know it all, and that's okay. So the humbleness of getting back, and letting people that know more than me run it, coming back to the trust, but also a kind of humbleness around letting other people and recruiting people that are better than me because I've seen that happening, and I've seen that being extremely successful in companies. I think the other one is from one of my recent managers. He was also extremely people oriented.
Petra Zackrisson:He cared for the people on a personal level. He knew who they were, and he knew their families too. I understand. And he knew them by name. I'm not good with names.
Petra Zackrisson:I wish I was. That was very impactful. Today, I was on a seminar with an Olympic athlete. We were discussing what you can learn from sports and how you can bring that into business. What Gottesm started was that he felt recognized.
Petra Zackrisson:He was someone he had a tough, pretty tough uprising and brought him or what was the good feeling that he had first time when someone said, Peter, you did that really well. So he was recognized. He was mentioned by his name, and the person told him what exactly he did well. And I think being, like, there and actually appreciate them and being specific to a person and telling them exactly what they do well, this is something that I try to mirror.
Leo Judkins:So key, isn't it? Being seen and being heard is absolutely key. I love that. I really want to wrap up with something that is practical for people listening in that perhaps are looking to almost create a similar journey to you. If you would go back in time and back to when you first started in gaining, what's one piece of advice that you would give yourself?
Petra Zackrisson:That's a hard one. I think one is this, try to be a bit nicer to yourself. Someone told me that it's good sometimes to reflect and say that try to say the same thing to yourself as the advice that you would give to someone else. You would never tell someone else that I was absolutely useless. I can be pretty good on telling myself that I'm pretty useless on certain things and being extremely critical.
Petra Zackrisson:And, and I think that kind of to be a little bit reflective and take a step back and actually be better at seeing what you do well as well is important. I hit the famous wall when I was only 28, 29, and I think that's was in a fairly unfriendly environment. And and I wish someone was a little bit better in how helped me and told me a little bit more that I did lots of things good even though that company McKinsey at the time was extremely focused on everything I should do better, not really what I did well.
Leo Judkins:Yeah.
Petra Zackrisson:So that's one. To be very clear, pick your manager is so important, Especially if you are a minority or in my case, as a woman, do your investigation, do the reference checks on your future manager in the same way as you do reference check on anyone else that you employ. But when you go into new roles, Chek what type of manager that is. Have that person had other women around him? Have he supported them?
Petra Zackrisson:What do they say about that? That's something very important.
Leo Judkins:Yeah. Love that. Great advice. It's interview both ways. Right?
Petra Zackrisson:Yeah. It is an interview both ways. But you often do not see it like that. You sit and you're on the receiving part, especially when you're younger. I think with experience, you become more aware of that.
Petra Zackrisson:It's equally important. If the relationship it's like a relationship. If the relationship is going to work, both of you have to approve and have to have to like the other person. It has to be someone that you like to be with, especially if you're passionate, you work 110%. You better have fun doing that.
Petra Zackrisson:And you had to do that with people that you actually like. If not, it's never going to be it's never going to work. I don't think it will be work. Then it will be an ugly divorce afterwards.
Leo Judkins:Your manager has more impact on your mental health than anyone else's Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Century. Great point to, end on, Petra. Thank you very much for podcast today.
Leo Judkins:Really, enjoy talking to you, and, I'll speak to you soon.
Petra Zackrisson:Thank you very much.
Leo Judkins:Wow. What an inspirational journey Petra has had. Right? It left me feeling so energetic afterwards. I think it gave us 3 key insights.
Leo Judkins:The first one was how important it is to be unapologetic about who you are, especially when you're working with other cultures that you might not have grown up with, or perhaps you're an expat. It is really important to just be open and honest about how you communicate with people, but also to ask feedback for how that's being perceived so that you can be authentic in your leadership. The second bit is really about how it's important to hire diverse sets of skills, just like what she called a soccer team, which is really a football team. You know, hiring a striker and a goalkeeper and a defender to make sure that you have different viewpoints and really start hiring people that are better than you are. Right?
Leo Judkins:And then the 3rd insight is how important it is to hire for grit and perseverance. Those are skills that you just can't teach anyone. They are things that people need to have shown in previous roles or perhaps even outside of their careers. And because that is what underpins high performance. So those are the create three insights that I saw or I got from this, this interview with Petra.
Leo Judkins:If you found this helpful, please take 10 seconds to just leave a rating and review. It helps us so much more than you could imagine. It helps other iGaming leaders like you find this episode as well. And next week, we're joined by Rob Duffy, who's the MD at Entain, who's gone from, you know, small family run businesses all the way up to the corporate big business of Entain, and he shares all of his insights from his leadership journey and what he looks for in people that he manages. So please join me again next week for another episode of the iGaming Leader.
Leo Judkins:See you then.