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Future of XYZ is a bi-weekly interview series that explores big questions about where we are as a world and where we’re going. Through candid conversations with international experts, visionary leaders and courageous changemakers- we provoke new thinking about what's coming down the pipeline on matters related to art & design, science & innovation, culture & creativity.
Future of XYZ is presented by iF Design, a respected member of the international design community and host of the prestigious iF DESIGN AWARD since 1953. The show is also a proud member of the SURROUND Podcast Network. For more information, visit ifdesign.com/XYZ.
00:00:04:00 - 00:00:24:06
Speaker 1
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Future of XYZ. With us is Logitech’s Head of Design, focused on MX Product series and UX Design for the Personal Workspace Solutions Group, Xinyue Zhou. Xinyue, thank you so much for joining us on Future of XYZ today.
00:00:24:08 - 00:00:26:02
Speaker 2
Thank you for having me.
00:00:26:04 - 00:00:53:21
Speaker 1
Your your title is a mouthful to put it mildly. But our topic today is very simple. It's called The Future of the Mouse. We've never done an episode in 140 episodes quite like this one. And the mouse in this case is obviously what you work on a lot at Logitech, one of the world's most recognized companies for what we call pointing devices.
00:00:53:22 - 00:01:10:19
Speaker 1
So the mouse attached to a computer or not attached to a computer. Let's start just straight off for the topic definition. What in the context of your expertise and experience, how do we define the mouse?
00:01:10:21 - 00:01:44:19
Speaker 2
Yes, of course. So I imagine maybe yourself or the listeners are maybe even holding a mouse at the moment, or possibly has been using a mouse today or in your daily life. So a computer mouse, as you say, is a pointing device. It's one of the most primary input devices that we use to interact with computers. It translates your hand movements, most likely in a 2D surface left and right back and forward into controlling the motion of the pointer to cursor.
00:01:44:21 - 00:02:18:00
Speaker 2
Right. And in graphical user interface in our computer. So it typically has the sensor that track the movement the left and right button and to select to click and have the scroll wheel to navigate to content most likely vertically. But now the modern mouse has evolved to have more and more features. It has more buttons, typically the side buttons and more programable buttons that you can customize in different shortcuts you may have having gestures.
00:02:18:00 - 00:02:43:12
Speaker 2
The more scrolling wheels. And of course the gaming mouse has lots of different lightings and and to customize to be more merged into the game. So it's become a very interesting object like everyone touch and is to to do all your daily activities with your computer.
00:02:43:14 - 00:03:03:01
Speaker 1
I have a very, very simple Logitech mouse here. It couldn't be simpler. It works with my remote, my wireless keyboard. And so I tried to get an ergonomic one not so long ago as recommended to me by a doctor. But I'm sticking with what I have.
00:03:03:03 - 00:03:18:04
Speaker 2
Yes, speaking of, yeah, I highly recommend the vertical mouse because I personally had the issue with the pain in my wrist and before the pain I was really not into it. And once I have the issue. Totally recommend to try.
00:03:20:10 - 00:03:41:07
Speaker 1
I've heard that before, I actually ordered one and then realized that it wasn't going to work with the keyboard. And so I needed to upgrade everything and I hate waste. So when this when this fails, I will go there. Xinyue, I'm curious. I mean, you have a very broad background, a research design strategy rooted in this interaction design.
00:03:41:13 - 00:04:07:14
Speaker 1
You grew up in China, you live in Lausanne, Switzerland, where Logitech is headquartered. You spent a lot of time. You were just you got your masters in Chicago at the Chicago Institute of Design. You were in San Francisco, at Logitech's office. And of course you were an iF Design award juror this year as well. So you spent a lot of time in the international sphere as well as Cross, I would say cross-functionally within this space.
00:04:07:16 - 00:04:31:08
Speaker 1
I mean, I'm I'm very curious from a experiential perspective for you, are there differences in the course of your career that you've seen in these various kind of functions of how they approach the mouse and or geographically? Or is it kind of a universe? Is this one of the few things the mouse is universal?
00:04:31:10 - 00:05:27:21
Speaker 2
yes, indeed. I have quite diverse background from industrial design to UX and then software and now back with or although I view the mouse is probably has been quite universal like it's, it's been quite simple for most people that using a basic mouse like you like has just a love of the two buttons the wheel, but working with of diverse international designers and groups and and as we designing more and more mice that really putting the user in the center. We really see that everyone needs have a different very different needs on a mouse right like that you have small hands, some people have bigger hands.
00:05:27:23 - 00:05:44:02
Speaker 2
People have different ways holding a mouse. I probably lack the strength, so I cannot I'm now I cannot stand a clicks with high forces. I have very short fingers. I can not reach the button.
00:05:44:07 - 00:05:48:15
Speaker 1
Or someone with the disability. I guess also you have to think about accessibility issues, too.
00:05:48:15 - 00:06:14:02
Speaker 2
Yes. Yes, of course. And left handed versus right handed. Vertical versus flat. I'm personally, I call myself a palm feeler, but it's a palm filling grip. But there are other people group holding the mouse in very different ways. Like we're always surprised. How can someone when you do user tests, how can someone is using a mouse that way?
00:06:14:02 - 00:06:40:08
Speaker 2
And we need to really designed specifically to avoid miss clicks. So it is a very universal familiar shape for people around the world, like using computer every day. However, everyone have very different needs of a mouse. It's very exciting to design an object that works for millions of people, but all using differently.
00:06:40:10 - 00:07:09:11
Speaker 1
Well, I was going to say it's really exciting because the products you're designing are used by millions of people. I mean, Logitech is I couldn't get exact numbers, but I mean, ostensibly Logitech is the world's largest mouse provider or at least one of them and one of the most reputable. And my understanding is that the business unit that you oversee UX for, which includes all these points in devices, including the mouse, does about 16 to 20% of Logitech four and a half billion dollar revenue.
00:07:09:16 - 00:07:31:00
Speaker 1
So it's not it's not only touching tens of millions of people, but it's also a huge revenue impact. If we think about it, I mean, I'm curious to go back in history a little bit, like how did the mouse evolve? And I guess also, I mean, we've talked about a little bit, but like what's the mouse's purpose in life?
00:07:31:02 - 00:08:05:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, so let's start where it started, right? So it is not it doesn't have very long history, of course. So it started in 1960s where people started prototyping the first mouse and highly recommend to a watch the demo the mother of all demos that when the mouse was firstly introduced and showed how to use point and click and drag at the very beginning it was just a wooden box with one button and then two wheels.
00:08:05:05 - 00:08:28:20
Speaker 2
And this track and this really evolves only until maybe the eighties when the first commercial mouse came and I was still having just a trackball in the back. And then with only one or two buttons. So there's I say the from the first commercial mouse to now is on it's been only forty years and it has been evolving really fast.
00:08:28:20 - 00:09:01:07
Speaker 2
I think only until the maybe the nineties that start having the wheel and now there are more and more buttons. But the evolution of a mouse really the, the innovation of the mouse really revolutionized how we interact with the computers, the graphical interface that introduced clicks and drags and the hover state, drag and drop, and influenced all the future human machine, human computer interactions.
00:09:01:09 - 00:09:05:15
Speaker 2
And your second question was around how what.
00:09:05:15 - 00:09:08:14
Speaker 1
Is the purpose of a mouse?
00:09:08:15 - 00:09:50:23
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I guess probably for you, we use it every day, right? So you, you click, you drag select. But the purpose is it's really the first up, like in order to recall it the first millimeter you hold and you touch that you interact with the digital words and is really helps. I mean complete all your daily tasks no matter is just filling the tax forms, browsing the internet or very complex activities Excel or 3D or graphical design.
00:09:50:24 - 00:10:24:19
Speaker 2
You know there are going to be lots of movements, fine tuning, rotating pan zoom, right. And then also for gamers like they is essential for them to be able to move fast and then win the game. It is probably, as I said, like it's the most the probably the besides the keyboard, the most important input device that we use to interact with the digital world.
00:10:24:21 - 00:10:54:04
Speaker 1
It's so interesting and I love that the title is The Mouse. And it's it's a it's a funny terminology for something that is, as you say, such a critical component of interacting with our digital devices. What is that research process or you know, what, how, how do you kind of go about designing a mouse, as you said before, for all of these different use cases, all of these different audiences, What does that look like?
00:10:54:23 - 00:11:22:23
Speaker 2
So it’s a typical user centered design process, right as as everyone else designing a product. So you start, of course, with who is the target user who you're designing for. So at Logitech, we have different target groups like for, for the group that I’m working most with at the moment, like we focus on creatives, designers and developers.
00:11:22:23 - 00:11:58:15
Speaker 2
So we call them advanced users because they have very advanced complex tasks on the interface that they need to navigate. They need really advanced features to of the mouse to be able to be very precise and to be able to navigate to move quickly in the content. But then you also have like we measure ergonomic needs, like when you design for someone with pain or with the needs that to that that still need to use the computer which the mouse 8 hours a day they have different needs.
00:11:58:19 - 00:12:36:01
Speaker 2
And then you have we have other categories of target users of course that the gamers or lifestyle that people are looking for something not a black plastic mouse, something more having more emotional attachments with them. So yeah, and you start from there and then you design the features so. But coming from a user experience background on the software side, designing hardware requires lots of more different expertise of the designs.
00:12:36:03 - 00:13:04:17
Speaker 2
So you have the industrial designs designing the shape that the size that they need to be fitting with the different target users. As a UX designer, we need to define how many buttons, which button do what, which buttons should be placed where, how, how each button act when you press or hold or double press and how the different operating system react to your actions.
00:13:04:19 - 00:13:09:15
Speaker 2
And then of course the color, material, and finishings and, and all the others.
00:13:09:17 - 00:13:44:05
Speaker 1
It's it's it's highly complex, actually, in a very interesting way, it seems to me, because I think about that, that kind of the research piece. Right. And all the different need states. Okay. And I want to talk about commercialization, go to market marketing and things like that. But you're talking about having studied and been a software UX user experience designer previously and now really like also focused on the hardware side, you're doing both software and hardware, which of course has a, has has there's an intersection which is where the greatness happens.
00:13:44:07 - 00:14:13:15
Speaker 1
But I'm really curious and as you know, as a juror at iF, the design award has both UI and UX disciplines because both have been growing rapidly, I'm curious why you call what you're doing UX and not UI specifically when we're talking about the, the, the, the, the digital interface of this hardware solution. Right. So could you talk about the differences a little bit between UI and UX?
00:14:13:17 - 00:15:07:23
Speaker 2
Yeah, of course. So the UI designers or UX UI designers typically reference the designer who design a digital interface, a web page, a software in the computer, and mostly today like an app on your phone, and then how you interact with your fingers or with a mouse. And that's I believe that's typically the category when most people refer to themselves as UX designer UI designer, or UX UI or nowadays product designers is a common name that's typically representing a completely digital product, like a digital only product, whereas which me and my team and then we started growing this capability at Logitech as well that we call ours.
00:15:08:00 - 00:15:33:06
Speaker 2
We, we, most of us come from UX design, UX UI design background, but now not seeing the opportunity to design the experience for a hardware and in typically a mouse or a keyboard doesn't have a screen there. So there is no graphical interface that we're designing for the product itself, although still there are lots of experience to be designed.
00:15:33:08 - 00:16:03:15
Speaker 2
It is not just the shape or the form. Like I already said before, that there are the buttons. There's how you connect with the computer, how you interact with the computer, how each button should be placed and how you. Also there is a counter companion software that goes with typically today with most modern mice that enhance the experience.
00:16:03:15 - 00:16:20:06
Speaker 2
That's and of course that's where the comfort zone the UX designer or if you like when adding more capability through the software to improve the experience of the hardware but we still call it still kind of call ourselves UX designers.
00:16:20:08 - 00:16:47:14
Speaker 1
It's it's funny because I think about I mean kind of this human machine interplay. You know, we have the trend report that just came out the fourth annual iF Design Trend Report and Human Machine Team Play is actually like a big macro trend that we're continuing to observe. So what you're describing as far as UX is is exactly that, that that's actually where this this intersectionality happens.
00:16:47:16 - 00:17:13:01
Speaker 1
You, you and I, when we met at Adobe Max in October last year and your whole Logitech team was there and it was, it was so fascinating. And that's how this conversation sparked. We talked a little about something that I hadn't even thought about, which is kind of the the human feedback piece of this, which is that sensorial, tactile need like that click that roll.
00:17:13:01 - 00:17:25:07
Speaker 1
Like can you talk a little bit as a UX designer for software who moved into hardware, kind of what that looks like and how you come to think about it at Logitech for, for the mouse?
00:17:25:09 - 00:17:51:18
Speaker 2
Yes, it's not that easy because when all the engineers are saying, we have a UX designer, the he or she is going to help us define what is a better clicking, what’s a better tracking, what’s a better scrolling. It's how how the force of that debate is everyone starts questioning you when you don't really know how you define what's a better UX.
00:17:51:20 - 00:18:18:10
Speaker 2
All we need to all I can do I say is by understanding who are our target user, what they might think is a better click or a better scroll. So starting with a click. So we we recently applied almost a silent click to almost all of our product line knowing when all of us have been transitioning work from home for the past five years.
00:18:18:15 - 00:19:04:04
Speaker 2
No one wants a noisy click where your partner is maybe working in the same room, but also the scrolling. Like how instead of a basic mechanical line by line, how you can scrolling fast and really truly to understand what a user scrolls and wants to achieve in the interface in the UI that has maybe a long page to go through or really need to pan and zoom into a 2D Photoshop interface, understanding what they do and how you apply the functionality of each button.
00:19:04:06 - 00:19:24:12
Speaker 1
It’s totally incredible actually. I mean, the things that we take for granted in our everyday lives, I think that's, you know, one of the things that Future of XYZ we’re always trying to do is, you know, just because I'm curious, but I have to say, Xinyue, as soon as we had this conversation, I was like, we have to talk about this, because I never, ever stop to think about it, except, as I mentioned, the ergonomic thing.
00:19:24:13 - 00:19:46:10
Speaker 2
It’s the magic of muscle memory, right? Like, it's when you design something that people can easily get used to it and then you, you forget about it. Like we talked a lot about how to turn something magical that you don't even need to think. And it just work the way you expect.
00:19:46:12 - 00:20:06:14
Speaker 1
Totally, totally. And that's great design. Ultimately, that is actually what makes really excellent design is when we don't have to think about it because it's seamless. Probably why Logitech ended up in the position it is on this topic. This is the future of the mouse. So I want to kind of pivot into a little bit more of that conversation.
00:20:06:16 - 00:20:34:20
Speaker 1
I mean, in some part I have to say, as you know, I'm like really kind of nerdy, excited about like what happens when like your eyes look at something and then you just blink twice. Like when we think about like the apple, you know, device that they introduced last year, you know, any number of things or like you think about even an implant, like a neural link, I mean, this might be a ways out, but how are you all and how are you specifically?
00:20:34:20 - 00:20:44:02
Speaker 1
Is it, you know, UX designer thinking about the future of the mouse? I mean, is the mouse not at some point going to die?
00:20:44:04 - 00:21:04:21
Speaker 2
Yes, that's a great question. I think the the worry of the death of mouse, especially at Logitech we're thinking of every time when a new technology comes up when started was like when the introduction of iPads and touchscreens, everyone's going to go mobile, no one's going to use laptops. Why would they still use their mouse.
00:21:04:23 - 00:21:35:05
Speaker 2
And then, of course, the VR and AR revolution and recently, yeah, that everything can be done with just one click before a graphic designer. If you want to remove the background, you maybe need to select a tool, select where you want to craft. It is another to remove the background or if you want a color of background, different way using a color to pick of the color.
00:21:35:07 - 00:22:06:14
Speaker 2
Many, many steps. And the examples goes in many, many spaces. I'm sure everyone now, our listeners probably has been really leveraging A.I. in our daily workflows. So before things can be done, through hours with mutable hundred thousand mouse clicks can be done with just one click. It could be even done maybe just through voice. I said say something directly or even a touch.
00:22:06:14 - 00:22:53:10
Speaker 2
So of course that the role of the mouse is evolving. And in there there are more ways to interact with the graphical interface or even the more dimensional interfaces. And there is touch, there is voice, there is eye tracking. There more and more of input that accompanies data of the input can be sensed by the operating system. It is, it is, I think where in a maybe in a pivot time that the role of a mouse may be evolving, although the interface hasn't really changed much.
00:22:53:10 - 00:23:26:04
Speaker 2
Like users where everyday life this the interface is still is still the 2D graphical user interface. The position of so maybe an example is like before Photoshop Adobe Photoshop interface the user need to really a designer really need to learn how to use it. And the tools are all on the top, on the left, on the right.
00:23:26:06 - 00:24:20:15
Speaker 2
We even need to maybe it goes to the menu on the top. Go to this layer, that sub layer, to really just to click something. A developer really need to learn all the shortcuts and all the tools. I think there has been a lot of articles talking about that we use. We we have been having what they call the precision interface or interface that the user need to learn how to control where we are evolving to intent based interface, where the interface knows more about the context, where we are and where you are trying to do the Photoshop interface is evolving, has been evolving in the past years with AI.
00:24:20:17 - 00:24:51:11
Speaker 2
And then there's a floating menu with actions and you can directly click instead of going finding somewhere hidden in a menu. And now there’s Google slides recently introducing a side panel on the right with some AI functions or so all the functions is moving closer to where your cursor is your mouse to reducing the movement of your cursor.
00:24:51:11 - 00:24:57:14
Speaker 2
It's going to be evolve easier, easier as how user can interact with...
00:24:57:16 - 00:25:28:00
Speaker 1
Well, we're saying that it's going to be as a from a UX perspective, for a UI perspective, it's going to be easier and easier for the user because it's going to become more intuitive. Of course I'll just drop it. But like the the environmental impact of all of that AI generated system is of course like really, really bad for the planet and not necessarily I don't I'm not so sure it's so good for our creative brains either, but that's, that's I'll hold onto my mouse for a while.
00:25:28:02 - 00:25:50:11
Speaker 1
Xinyue, the time has flown, which is a bummer because I love this topic. I want to come to our last two questions. The first of those last two questions is for anyone who's listening or watching today, who wants to learn more about the history, the present or the future of the mouse, where would you recommend that they they go.
00:25:50:13 - 00:26:11:05
Speaker 2
As you said, like Logitech has a biggest market share in this space. So of course come in to Logitech dot com that has all the different variety type of mouse that to get familiar with the type of products like you can interact and the type of features.
00:26:11:07 - 00:26:15:17
Speaker 1
All the customizations, all the sensors, all of the colors and.
00:26:15:20 - 00:26:58:15
Speaker 2
All of the nerd of a mouse, which is odd, maybe a paradox to be a nerd about. So yeah, but the there's so much content online about the histories, but maybe I want to touch about like how to be a UX designer in a hardware. So we touched on it already, and I didn't mention so internally to really differentiate the UX designer that designs for hardware versus the software, sometimes we call it a hardware UX designer or a business group UX designer because you are designing a product for a group.
00:26:58:17 - 00:27:41:13
Speaker 2
I saw it online that some companies also started introducing hardware UX designer. It is a very exciting, I think, growing job type for designers to explore as they're more and more smarter devices that that has Internet of Things or that has the capability to, to think and to interact is exciting too. For me, this I think, is a perfect job for me to having the ability to design the interface, but also a paradox.
00:27:41:13 - 00:27:56:18
Speaker 2
People can hold that really. kind of everything you want to do with your product. So you see how you react to this with all the computers, with everyone playing with it.
00:27:56:22 - 00:28:23:15
Speaker 1
It's so interesting. So Hardware UX is the is the new new design role that that Xinyue Zhou of Logitech is predicting is like the future I love I love that. And the and the last question as we you know we asked is the mouse dead? And we talked about the future and we talked about it's, you know, reasonably recent past, which of course corresponds to the growth of computers and digital in general.
00:28:23:17 - 00:28:43:18
Speaker 1
But if we're thinking today, it's, you know, May 2025 and we're looking out to, you know, 25 years from now to 2050, what is your greatest hope for the future of the mouse in, say, 2050.
00:28:43:20 - 00:29:19:12
Speaker 2
That’s so far away as the technology has evolved so fast recently, But I believe the human behavior doesn't really change much. The need for something comfortable, easy, intuitive will never change. As a female designer in a very hot, hot, hardware heavy industry, I think we Logitech, we're really trying to design a mouse for everyone that is not one fits all, it’s to have the different options.
00:29:19:12 - 00:29:43:14
Speaker 2
So I really hope that we we have products that fit everyone's different needs. As a person with small hands, I have a mouse. For me, as people with accessibility needs or even we recently talked a lot about even temporary accessible needs. If I'm a mom holding a baby, I won't be able to have the two hands working.
00:29:43:16 - 00:30:43:10
Speaker 2
So that's one part. I really hope that the digital that the computer electronics and that can be really accessible for everyone. And be sustainable. I know you also wanted to add to that topic as well. So I think really how we used to say desirability, availability and visibility and how inclusivity and sustainability can be really a core pillar to be evaluated against other all together and really can make a decision, say, if this has a huge impact on the carbon, that we can balance the viability versus the sustainability and how that really change all the design process and have sustainability really integrated into the new design process.
00:30:43:14 - 00:31:23:04
Speaker 1
I love that, as you know, for lots of different reasons, and I know Logitech made some pretty huge net zero and carbon commitments over the next while. It is interesting to imagine that when you start the design process of something that seems so little as a mouse, but you know, tens of millions of units are being sold of it every year, that electronic waste, that plastic waste that, you know, production waste is is really significant so that you you have to start at the beginning to to design you know design environmental sustainability as well as that accessibility and inclusivity on the social side.
00:31:23:04 - 00:32:06:01
Speaker 2
And yes, is still is it's hard to imagine how much plastic and PCBs we're producing every year and the hopefully is not just reducing the CO2, but also how to create more emotional durability that people can and is we've tried to create a mouse that can last very long, but we also want user to have a longer emotional attachment to it so that you don't get bored with it after two or three years and you are able to enjoy it for a longer time.
00:32:06:03 - 00:32:25:24
Speaker 1
I, I love that as a, as a vision for the future. I think that could apply to every single product category in the whole world. But I appreciate it coming from you regarding the future of the mouse, Xinyue Zhou, thank you so much for joining us on Future of XYZ today. It was totally awesome.
00:32:26:01 - 00:32:28:09
Speaker 2
Thank you so much, it was fun.
00:32:28:11 - 00:32:44:01
Speaker 1
Everyone watching and listening, thanks for joining us. Please be sure to leave us a five star review on your favorite podcast platform so that others can find us follow on Instagram and we will see you again in two weeks. Thank you.
00:32:44:03 - 00:32:44:24
Speaker 2
Thanks.