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Uncharted Entrepreneurship - hosted by Brent Peterson out of the Minnesota chapter of Entrepreneurs’ Organization – brings you daring stories straight from the trailblazing entrepreneurs who are unmapping business frontiers across every industry. Settle in around our virtual campfire as Brent sits down to pick the brains of startup pioneers, visionary founders, and intrepid CEOs whose origin stories - marked by unexpected twists, lessons, and stumbles along unpaved paths - will inspire your own trek in launching a boundary-pushing venture. Trading war stories, strategies, and even warnings, these audacious guests invite fellow founders and future leaders into their confidential circles in a uniquely transparent, wise, and motivational way. So join us off the beaten business trails to light your entrepreneurial fire!
Brent Peterson (00:01.464)
Welcome to this episode of Uncharted Entrepreneurship. Today I Marianne Hickman. Marianne is a public speaker. Go ahead, tell us your day-to-day role. Give us one of your passions in life and yeah.
Marianne Hickman (00:13.637)
Hey, Brent, thank you so much for having me on. So yeah, my day to day honestly is being a mom of six kids first. That's how that roll, know, wife, mother, and then I love public speaking and not just public speaking, but I just built this studio that I'm in and on the studs on the wall behind all the drywall and the sheetrock is two goals of mine. One is to help my students get on a million stages. And the second one is to make a billion dollars doing it. So outside of, you know, wife and mother, although
All of those kind of feed into each other that I don't blur. I don't delineate between family and business. I kind of blur that line. But when I'm not wiping a snotty nose or making dinner, it's how do I get my community onto a million stages and help them make a lot of money doing it.
Brent Peterson (01:01.87)
That's awesome. That's good. We're going to have so much to talk about today and I'm very excited. Before we do that, you have been volunteered to be part of the Free Joke Project. I'm just going to tell you a joke and all you have to do is give me a rating one through five. So here we go. For her birthday, I took my wife to an orchard and we stood there looking at the trees for an hour and a half. Not the Apple Watch she was expecting, I guess.
Marianne Hickman (01:30.567)
Okay, all right, okay, so I'm going to Rate that I'm gonna give it a solid four. I I like that. It's Apple orchard I'm all Apple and when I have Android people on my text threads, I tell them one day You will be inducted into the orchard And I the only thing that's keeping it from being a five is that
I kind of wanted her to have the Apple Watch. I don't know why. I just, I don't know.
Brent Peterson (02:02.616)
Yeah, well, if you knew my wife, she has a garment and she's all into that. So we're all good. All right. So tell us, tell us a little bit about why people want to publicly speak. Let's, let's start kind of from the beginning. Tell us your kind of beginnings and how you got started.
Marianne Hickman (02:06.279)
That's perfect for her then.
Marianne Hickman (02:24.079)
Yeah, well, it's funny because public speaking is the number one fear in all the world, right? If you look at all the, if you do a Google search and you're like, what's the biggest fear? It's public speaking. So, you know, most people don't think that I want to be in public speaker. And a lot of the people that do think that unfortunately are very ego driven individuals. It's like the person that wants to be king versus the person that's given the crown, right? So.
In the world of public speaking, it's more of a calling. And when you want to get really good at it, it is because that you feel some sort of sense of obligation. You've got this powerful past or you've got this incredible story and you're like, maybe I do need to put this on stage. And so I'm not saying that everyone that wants to be a public speaker is ego driven, don't mistake me. But the people that really want to do it and do it well know that when you get to the stage, the ego has to be gone.
you have to take the stage to serve your audience. And every audience member can tell, you and I can tell. When we get into a building or into an event and there's some ego driven guy or gal on stage, we don't benefit from it and we can't wait for the speech to be over. And it's all about them, them, them instead of why am I here as an audience member? How can you help me? So when I first started public speaking, I was five.
Brent Peterson (03:25.166)
There's some people driven, a guy or gal on stage, we don't believe it.
Brent Peterson (03:39.566)
started public speaking, was five. My church did a really good job of helping kids break through that fear. I don't know if that was a specific five design thing because they think that's...
Marianne Hickman (03:41.223)
My church did a really good job of helping kids break through that fear. And I don't know if that was a specific by design thing because they knew that public speaking is going to be the most powerful tool or if it was just simply they needed to fill the time. I'll never know. But they put five year olds up on stage in front of grownups, in front of all their peers and they give them a chance to, you know, take their 30 second talk and deliver it. And that never goes away as part of that church. And when I got to school,
Brent Peterson (03:52.398)
Or if it was just simply they needed to the time. I'll never know. But they put five year olds up on stage in front of grown ups, in front of all their peers, to take their 30 second talk and deliver it. And that never goes away. That is part of that church. And when I got to school, I'll never forget Mrs. Wilson. She was my seventh grade English teacher. She took me to Europe. She told me that I was a scholar and she infused all of this confidence in me at the time.
Marianne Hickman (04:10.683)
I'll never forget Mrs. Wilson. She was my seventh grade English teacher. She took me to Europe. She told me that I was a scholar and she infused all of this confidence in me at the time. And she said, Mary Ann, should compete, speak competitively. And I was like, does that mean like arguing with my brothers and sisters? Cause I do that all the time. I don't know what you're thinking. I don't know you mean. But she said, no, there's this place called the Optimist Speech Club. You should go compete. And she helped me develop a signature keynote and I won the regional.
Brent Peterson (04:23.37)
think speak more intensively.
you
Brent Peterson (04:32.462)
There's this place called the Austin Beach Buds, and she helped me develop the intro, and I won the regionals, or the local, and then I went to regional, I won the regional, and I took second place at the state, and I'll never forget being down there.
Marianne Hickman (04:40.455)
and or the local and then I went to regional, I won the regional and I took second place at state and I'll never forget being down in Pueblo, Colorado in this conference room. I think it might've been a chapel at one point. There was a pulpit and all this and I was watching these other kids my age get up there and speak and I watched them fumble with their papers and I watched them with varying degrees of confidence. I watched this one girl completely knock it out of the park and I was like, shoot, I don't deserve to win, she does. And it started to just kind of,
Brent Peterson (04:49.358)
conference room. think in my chapel room, like there was a pulpit and all this, and I was watching these other kids my age get up there and speak. And I watched them fumble with their papers, and I watched them to varying degrees of confidence. watched one girl come to me and
Brent Peterson (05:08.302)
kind of, and teased this idea. And that sat on the back burner over a hot minute while I was cleaning it up and did all the good things that we're supposed to do. I pretty choked up. I had kids and it's like I seriously miss my students so much. was getting married. But I went back when I saw a public security Kirk Duncan, he's pretty big in the top industry. His, he runs a business in Trinidad.
Marianne Hickman (05:09.497)
tease this idea and that sat on the back burner for a hot minute while I became a grownup and did all the grownup things that we're supposed to do. know, I turned 18, got married, had kids and it's like I seriously missed my senior prom because I was getting married. But I went back when I saw a public speaker named Kirk Duncan. He's pretty big in the Utah industry. He runs a company called Three Key Elements and I was sitting in one of his events and I felt this
Brent Peterson (05:35.374)
And I felt this... If you could be kicked in the chest energetically, you know, like with this falling in a way that you don't... You didn't really assume it was yours, but you resonated with so powerfully. I'm not the kind of person that says, we're all gonna hear their calling by angels and killers from God saying, this is your thing. I don't think that's how it works. I think when we find the match, when we are exposed to enough quiet in our lives, we go to enough...
Marianne Hickman (05:37.843)
If you could be kicked in the chest energetically, you know, like with this calling in a way that you don't, you didn't really assume was yours, but you resonated with so powerfully. I'm not the kind of person that says, we're all gonna get our calling by angels and pillars from God and saying, this is your thing. I don't think that's how it works. I think when we find the match, when we are exposed to enough variety in our lives, we go to enough experiences, we find the thing that like,
I want to do that. That was boss. That was cool. I benefited so much from that. I want to propagate that. And that's where we get entrepreneurship, right? That's where we get people that say, I want to do that, or I want to fix this problem, or I think I could do that. Not in an ego way, if I could do it better, maybe in a way that says the world is missing this element and I know how to fix it. And so that's where we get the spark of entrepreneurship. And I believe that entrepreneurship and public speaking go hand in hand.
Brent Peterson (06:13.174)
And that's where we get entrepreneurship, right? That's where we get people that say, I want to do that, or I want to fix this problem, or I think I can do that, not in an ego way if I can do it better, but maybe in a way that says the world is missing this element that I'm fixing. And so that's where we get this part of entrepreneurship. And I believe that entrepreneurship can probably...
Marianne Hickman (06:32.579)
If you are an entrepreneur and you want your business to be a business, you have to have revenue. And if you want revenue, you have to have buying customers. If you want buying customers, those have to come from leads. If you want leads, you have to have an audience. In order to grow any and all of those things, you have to be able to talk about your business, whether it's on podcasts just like this, or whether you're gonna go the Ryan Panetta route and you're gonna create big events. You I was actually sitting with him at his last WealthCon and asked him this question, when did you transact?
Brent Peterson (06:32.686)
If you are an entrepreneur and you want your business to be a business, have to have revenue. And if you want revenue, you have to have fine customers. you want fine customers, those have to have leads. If you want leads, you have to have an audience. In order to grow any and all of those things, you have to be able to talk about your business, whether it's on podcasts, just like this, or whether you're going to go the right banana route and you're going to create a big event. You know, I was actually sitting with him at his last remote on WealthCon and asked him a question.
When did you transition from real estate to public speaking? And this was enhanced in the entire room. said, exactly that. The minute that you want to grow your business, have to be able to tell people about it. And if you can't speak in front of a camera or in front of a room, then your business doesn't stand cheap. The average cost of purchasing things to get leave, acquisition, you will, is about $3,000.
Marianne Hickman (07:02.343)
or transition from real estate to public speaking. And this was an answer for the entire room. And he said, exactly that. The minute that you want to grow your business, you have to be able to tell people about it. And if you can't speak in front of a camera or in front of a room, then your business doesn't stand a chance. The average cost of lead purchasing, paying to get leads, acquisition, if you will, is about $350 per lead. And now for new entrepreneurs,
Brent Peterson (07:29.646)
Now, I think with flowers, it's pretty hot. That's a pretty high cost. However, if you know how to it correctly, that's So you can do it well. Your leaves can be free. And maybe even in some cases, paid if you're getting a trigger. So that's the origin story of it all. I know that's a long answer, but that's where it all started and for a lot of us, it's been worth
Marianne Hickman (07:31.441)
That's pretty high. That's a pretty high cost. However, if you know how to deliver your message exquisitely well, your leads can be free and maybe even in some cases paid if you're getting a speaker fee. So that's the origin story of it all. I know that's a long answer to your question, but that's where it all started. And for a lot of entrepreneurs, that's how their business really launches.
Brent Peterson (07:53.23)
Yeah, that's good. So there's a couple of things I want to extract from that. The first one is in the green room, we did talk about pay to play and how many people and I'll call them sales people that have been nominated to give the talk, right? At a conference, bring their sales deck. And that's what they think is their talk, right? They're just, it's pay to play. There's no reasoning for being there. They're only there because their company is paying a sponsorship for the conference. And now they're going to give a presentation.
Marianne Hickman (08:07.309)
Yep.
Brent Peterson (08:23.47)
Those are the ones that I get the biggest turn off from. Like I just want to leave the room. And often times I do, I'm like, this is a waste of my time. Cause I could get this by watching their video on their website. And usually the video on their website is better than their presentation, right? There's no story in it. It's just like, and now you're going to go from this thing to the next thing, or it's worse. Even if it's like a payment gateway, like I'm going to sell you my payment gateway because you need a better discount on your visa, whatever.
Marianne Hickman (08:51.345)
Yeah.
Brent Peterson (08:52.216)
So tell us a little bit about that part of it on the, I know that you've mentioned ego, but there's so much around that and getting your message across and then getting it across in a story that people resonate with.
Marianne Hickman (09:05.255)
Yeah, I've seen a lot of that and you know what, there's a reason that that exists and because it has some degree of efficacy, right? I have been in also the world of sales for the last decade. I ran a sales floor for a multi-million dollar company and I understand why people have a really sour taste in their mouth around sales. And it's because, and forgive me for a little bit of explicitness, people are trying to get laid on the first date.
It just doesn't work that way. It's repellent for people. You you mentioned it. It's the point where I walk out and dude, I've been in events where there's 5,000 people in the arena and one of the most well-known marketers in the world, I dare say, gets up and starts immediately going into the pitch where it doesn't fit, it doesn't feel natural, it doesn't contribute to the audience and literally half the audience got up and left. I was...
Shocked that presenter was not happy with that either. The owner of the event was, it crumbled for everybody. It was a lose, lose, lose. It was a lose for the audience. It was a lose for the presenter. And it was a lose for the event owner because of how it was executed. And there's a lot of elements to that where if you ignore those, you'll get this effect. However, I'm the first person to say, if you don't have revenue in your business, then you don't have a business. You have no business in being in business, right? And entrepreneurs listen up.
Like this is the point, you've got to be able to have a way to create revenue, but also it should feel like a win, win, win. It shouldn't feel like a win, lose, lose, or a lose, lose, lose. If you have an element of loss, then you don't have a fair transaction. When you are on stage, the best way to grow your revenue through the stage is what feels like the natural next step. And this is done through the CTA.
Brent Peterson (10:35.295)
It shouldn't feel like a win-lose-lose. If you have an element of loss, then you don't have a fair transaction. When you are on stage, the best way to throw your revenue through the stage is what feels like a natural...
Marianne Hickman (10:53.029)
Now the CTA is the ninth of 10 steps in your signature keynote and you only have permission to do a CTA if you've created an effective story. You also need to know what kind of CTA is appropriate for the event and the audience and you can't confuse the audience. A confused mind does not buy, does not buy products, does not buy ideas. So if you're in a massive event and you are the sponsored stage, you paid to be there, you paid to play, then obviously you wanna get an ROI from that.
Brent Peterson (10:53.506)
You know, you have the mission to do a CTA if you've created an effective story. You also need to know what kind of CTA is appropriate for the event and the audience.
Brent Peterson (11:13.584)
So if you're in a mass event and you are the sponsored stage, you paid to be there, you need to play, then obviously you want to get an ROI. Right? The ROI is knowing your
Marianne Hickman (11:22.951)
Right? The ROI is knowing your numbers and you have to know how much of your audience converts with your call to action. If you're the guy getting up there and you paid to be on that stage, I was offered a chance, which I regret not taking by the way, I was offered a chance to speak on Jordan Peterson's stage. was a $25,000 buy-in. I wish I had taken it. But if I had taken it, I would not have done a financial pitch. I don't think I would have even been allowed to at that, on that stage.
Brent Peterson (11:32.878)
If you're the guy getting up there, wouldn't be on that stage. I would offer the chance, I would not take them out of the I would offer the chance to speak on Jordan Peterson's case. It's $25,000. I wish I had taken it. But if I had taken it, I would not have done the financial pitch. I don't think.
Marianne Hickman (11:52.007)
The best way for me to grow is by gathering the audience into a natural next step. So when I speak, oftentimes it's motivational speak, but oftentimes it's also training entrepreneurs how to make money from stage. And when I do that, my CTA is a very natural next step that enrolls 80 % plus of the audience. They say yes to the thing that I'm offering and it's not a paid item. It is what is next. It's a value add to the audience.
Brent Peterson (12:04.75)
And when I do that, my CTA is a very natural next step that enrolls 80 % plus of the audience. say yes to the things that I'm offering and it's not a fee. It is what is next. It's a value to the audience. Do I get their emails in return? Yes. And they're happy to give them to me because they want whatever I have to offer. And then the natural process.
Marianne Hickman (12:19.739)
Do I get their emails in return? Yes. And they're happy to give them to me because they want whatever I have to offer. And then in the natural follow-up sequence, according to the salespeople, the right people come through my doors. And that's what makes me revenue is when the right people come through my doors after I've already given them something with no expectation of them, you know, in return, I give it to them, they give me their email and for many people we're done and that's fine. But for the right people, they come knocking on my door and say, okay, but
Brent Peterson (12:30.382)
the right people come through my doors. And that's what makes me relevant, is when the right people come through my doors, after I've already given them something with no expectation of them in return. I give it to them, but give me their...
Marianne Hickman (12:49.467)
but how did you do this? I want to pay you yesterday, just yesterday. I had an amazing gentleman that said, he said, I want to hire you to help me refine my signature keynote presentation. And I said, well, this is how much it is and we fit something for his budget. And he said, that feels like a stretch, but I know I need to do this. I'm going to skip my car payment so that I can do this. And I was like, whoa, bro. I mean, that's your call, not mine. But he said, no, I'm serious. There's a bigger ROI in me.
Brent Peterson (12:51.374)
yesterday, just yesterday, an amazing gentleman that said, he said, I want to hire you to help me.
Brent Peterson (13:02.51)
And I said, well, this is how much it is. And fits in for his budget. And he said, that feels like a stretch. But I'm no one to do this. I'm going to put my car in there. But it's gross. I mean, that's their call, not mine. But he said, no, I'm serious. There's a bigger ROI in any.
Marianne Hickman (13:19.345)
honing my signature keynote, in bothering with a letter saying, hey, you missed your payment this month, I'll catch it up next month. And I was deeply humbled by that, that he saw so much value in what we were bringing to the table. I would much, much rather have clients that say, up and take my money, than clients I feel like I have to strong arm. That's the win lose versus the win win.
Brent Peterson (13:41.512)
I want to back up a little bit into the messaging and I think you said something important there about the CTA. There's a, and not necessarily pay to play, but companies that send their texts to talk at a conference that there's absolutely zero CTA in. and there's an opportunity there. How, how would you coach somebody? And there's a lot of good texts that give talks, right?
and they give talks about very technical topics. And at the end, they're like, here's my Twitter or here's my GitHub account. Go ahead and follow me. But there is an opportunity in there from a company standpoint to do a subtle CTA. Give us some ideas on what that might be. And I know the freeware, free
The free thing is always a good one to do. Like here's your free booklet on something or here's a free 700 hours on our platform or I don't know what that is, but what kind of coaching can you give? And that's more like you need more coaching for the leader who's deciding to let send that person to that conference, right?
Marianne Hickman (14:54.087)
Yeah, yeah, well the biggest thing is you've got to know a couple of ingredients that you're working with in order to produce the right CTA. One, is it your events or is it someone else's event? If it's my event and I own the stage, I can do a paid CTA really easily, right? If it's not my event, which is where most people are, they're speaking at other people's stuff, they need to understand what the event goal is. So when I had my student
teaching at WealthCon, he wasn't allowed to do a CTA because it would conflict with the event goal call to action. The event goal call to action was to have people join Ryan Pineda's program. So when I was teaching my student, I said, you want to actually contribute to that CTA. The owner of the event will love you for it if you are helping them row the boat toward the overall desire and goal of the event, which is the main event CTA. Now, you may not have a...
corresponding product for that and that's great. In fact, it's probably better for you. So if you're speaking at another event and your company sends you, your company and you need to understand who is in the room, the demographic of the people in the room and the importance of that is understanding what they want. What do the people in the room want? Why did they come to the event? Did they come to the event because their boss sent them? Did they come to the event because they wanted to be there? Did they come to the event in order to get something? What?
what marketing made them say yes, and what are they hoping to achieve by being there? And then your job and your CTA is to help contribute to the need. I don't want a CTA that doesn't fit. I want a CTA that contributes to the need of the audience. So when I'm at an event, let's just say I'm in your shoes or your example, this technical person, I was asked to go speak at another event, I'm gonna talk to the event coordinator and say, what do the people at this event really need? I'm gonna talk to the event host and say, what is your main call to action and how can I contribute?
Brent Peterson (16:40.942)
What are the people at the event really doing? I'm going to talk to the event host and say, what is your main policy issue of my year? And then I'm going to say how can my product or service company contribute to
Marianne Hickman (16:48.347)
And then I'm gonna say, does my product, service or company contribute to the solution of that problem? So if I was asked to speak at example to a Dell conference, right? And I'm in the room with a bunch of Dell people and the company owner says, hey, our main CTA is for, I'm just totally making this up, people to upgrade to our latest software and all of this.
Brent Peterson (16:55.246)
So if I was asked to speak at a Del Client, right, and I'm in the room with a bunch of Del people and the company owner says, our main CTA is for random, just totally, people to upgrade for our latest software and all of this, then I'm going to not only cater my CTA to that, but I'm also gonna say, who are your people? They wanna be there, because they're too slow, because they need to take their time, or whatever it is. Okay, who's in?
Marianne Hickman (17:12.571)
then I'm going to not only cater my CTA to that, but I'm also gonna say, who are your people and why do they wanna be there? because their software is slow or because they need to save more time or whatever it is. Okay, who's in the room? Is it parents? Is it employees? Is it entrepreneurs? Is it intrapreneurs who are hoping to one day be an entrepreneur? And then I say, what about my content? How can I put some different lipstick on my story, not change the story, I'm not gonna lie or anything, but how can I cater the story to relevant
Brent Peterson (17:24.27)
Thank you.
Brent Peterson (17:30.955)
What about my content? can I put lipstick on my story?
Brent Peterson (17:38.974)
the to
Marianne Hickman (17:41.291)
relevant to people in the room and then cater my CTA. So with all of those ingredients, I'm gonna say, okay, maybe the audience wants to be saving time. The company wants them to upgrade to the software. And so my CTA is going to be, here's how our company contributes to your time saving, leveraging this software. Here's a booklet on 10 ways that you can get a promotion by saving time and leveraging the new software. And if I give that CTA away,
Brent Peterson (17:48.526)
The company wants to upgrade to the software. so my CTA is going to be, here's how our company contributes to your time saving, leveraging the software. a booklet on 10 ways that you can get a promotion by saving time and leveraging the new software. And if I give that CTA away, I'm enrolling everyone in the vision of the event, the vision of the business that they can.
Marianne Hickman (18:08.751)
I'm enrolling everyone in the vision of the event, the vision of the, the vision that they came to the event for, and then I'm also bringing them into my company's universe by collecting emails, by distributing whatever booklet I gave away.
Brent Peterson (18:18.542)
right?
Brent Peterson (18:22.808)
That's good. I want to kind of go backward again now on the target audience and knowing who you are talking to. And I know that 10 years ago, I started talking or speaking in public and I thought my audience would be the owners of the companies, right? I spoke on customer experience in the project management realm in software development. Super exciting, by the way.
Marianne Hickman (18:52.168)
Hahaha!
Brent Peterson (18:52.59)
And I was amazed that the people that raised their hands at the end were developers who didn't understand all those little pieces that they should be doing in terms of keeping their customer happy during the development process. So I think I thought that I knew who my target audience was. My target audience is just keeping the client engaged in the process and knowing that
This is our side of the fence. Here's what we're saying. And what I found out is that our side of the fence isn't also that clear, right? The developers don't really know that the clients would like to know when the deadline is. They just know they're going to get it done and they're going to tell you it'll take four 40 hours, which in a developer's life is like six months. So, how do you, I mean, I guess,
Marianne Hickman (19:38.619)
Clear.
Marianne Hickman (19:45.166)
Hahaha
Brent Peterson (19:50.462)
There's always going to be those surprises where you don't know that the audience is something different. Is there a good way to know who your audience is and how do you pivot once you've discovered that your audience is somebody completely different?
Marianne Hickman (20:05.415)
So this is what I do at the beginning of every keynote, every keynote that I do on my stage or on somebody else's stage before I go into my blueprint of what I have prepared and what I thought I needed. This is where we drop our ego and show up to serve. If I come with a pre-planned agenda and I'm so tied to my PowerPoints that I'm gonna be flabbergasted if the tech doesn't work or whatever it is, then I'm ego-driven, then I'm worried about what I have to say and all of these things.
So whenever I jump on stage and open an event or open my keynote, I throw the whole thing in the garbage in my head. I might need it, I might lean on it, but I throw it all in the garbage and I come to the stage with an empty cup. And I say, I literally ask the audience, tell me what you're here for. This is the beginning of transformational versus informational speaking. I have a whiteboard ideally on stage, but even if I don't, I'm making a mental note and I'm asking the audience, what did you come to this event for?
You invested however many days to be here. That's a percentage of your year. You got babysitters, you got work off, you got hotels, you got flights, you drove all night to be here. Why? And I literally asked them, why are you here? And a lot of the times, depending on the event, it's financial freedom, or I wanna learn how to speak, or I want to win the TEDx stage, or whatever it is. And if I'm in front of an audience of software developers,
Brent Peterson (21:23.63)
the tenant stage or whatever it is. And if I'm in front of an audience of software developers, then I'm going to ask them and assist them and prod them and I'm not going let them slide with these popery answers. Popery answers meaning they're going to tell me...
Marianne Hickman (21:28.551)
then I'm gonna ask them and poke them and prod them and I'm not gonna let them slide with these potpourri answers. Potpourri answers meaning they're gonna tell me fluffy words that sound nice and smell nice but I don't really know what they are. So if someone tells me I wanna be financially free, I'm like, well, that's cool, what does that mean? Does that mean you need to make $3,000 a month? Does that mean you need to make an additional $10,000 a month? Like what does that number mean for you? And I get concrete with them so that they know what they came for. And then I ask them the following question, how do you know
Brent Peterson (21:38.702)
So if someone tells me, I want to be financially free, I'm like, well, that's cool. What does that mean? Does that mean you need to make $3,000 a month?
Brent Peterson (21:51.118)
Yeah.
Marianne Hickman (21:57.071)
that your action steps today are going to feed that. Or in other words, what do you know you need to do before the end of the day to get that goal? And that's where I base my keynote. When I find I'm in a room of software developers and the audience surprises me, then we're gonna work together. If I'm in a room of a bunch of developers who they're on their side of the fence and they wouldn't ideally be concerned about that, I would ask them about it and say, do you need in order to do that? Why do you care about customer satisfaction?
Brent Peterson (21:57.25)
that your action steps today are going to be that.
Brent Peterson (22:04.286)
And that's where I beat my fear.
Brent Peterson (22:11.406)
then we can work together. If I'm in a room of a bunch of developers, they're their side of the fence and wouldn't ideally...
Brent Peterson (22:25.288)
about customer satisfaction. Right now, we're talk about the five...
Marianne Hickman (22:26.853)
Right now I'm reading a book called The Five Dysfunctions of a Team and this book dovetails very well with the book Extreme Ownership. And when they're talking about, my gosh, I wanna take ownership of this element because it actually solves a problem for me when I can help the customer better, then I'm gonna pivot my keynote to talk all about that. Now that comes with, I'm not saying that everyone that jumps on stage can do that right away. You shouldn't expect yourself to.
Brent Peterson (22:31.214)
that's held very well with the book.
Marianne Hickman (22:52.229)
you're gonna become so well known for your keynote that that's what we're gonna ask to speak on over and over and over again. But when you get on your 200th stage or your 300th stage or your 500th stage, you're gonna find that you can adapt your keynote to the needs of the audience very, very adeptly and quickly, regardless of what the needs of the audience are. And that was what produces transformation. That's when you get asked to speak again. That's when you get asked to revisit the conference. And that's for a lot of speakers.
Brent Peterson (23:06.946)
very very adeptly and quickly regard.
And that was what produces transformation. That's when you get asked to this again. That's when you get asked to revisit the conference.
Marianne Hickman (23:20.933)
The most fulfilling part is when they step off the stage and have audience members come up to them and say, that was amazing, how can I get?
Brent Peterson (23:27.83)
That's good. The five dysfunctions of a teen is something that you'll probably start dealing with soon. And there's a lot more than five.
Marianne Hickman (23:36.087)
yeah. It's, it's honestly dysfunctions on me too. It's like when you train a dog, you're really training the dog owner not to equate teams to dogs. But you know, we're, figuring this out altogether.
Brent Peterson (23:45.314)
Right.
Yes. So I want to, you mentioned getting your talk again and again, and oftentimes, especially in the tech space, organizer wants a talk, but they don't want the same talk you gave at the conference in Germany. They want a new talk. And I've been successful in giving the same talk over and over again. And I can't understand, like, why don't they want
this like there's a new audience, let them do this, the same talk because it's engaging, right? How do you get organizers to understand, or maybe that's only a problem in the tech community where the organizers don't understand that a good talk is a talk that could be said over and over again.
Marianne Hickman (24:23.472)
Mm-hmm.
Marianne Hickman (24:35.469)
Mm-hmm. Well, I think it's, again, it's back to asking what the organizer's goal is. What is your objective for this event? What is it that your people need during this event? So I'm gonna, again, ask the organizer, and I'm gonna ask the audience what they need. And you know what? By the time I'm on stage, I could title my talk whatever the crap I want, and I can deliver something different, right? It doesn't matter. But if I'm fulfilling the needs of the room, then my job is done.
If the organizer is happy, the event coordinator is happy, the host of the event is happy, and the audience is happy, and I'm happy, I didn't break my integrity to get there, then the talk content, once you're up on that stage in front of the microphone, it can change at the drop of a hat, and you should be adaptable enough to change your talk. Even if they come and say, this keynote that you entitled, how to please your customers as a software developer, we want you to give that same talk.
And I'm gonna be like, great, tell me the objective of your event. What are you hoping the event will do? What is your desired outcome of the event? Who is in the room? How many people are the room? Where are they coming from? How do they get there? And I'm gonna say, yes, and this is one of the most powerful tools. I was just talking to a friend of mine. It was at the beginning of the year we met and she is an improv comedy and she also trains public speakers. And one of the most powerful tools, not only in speaking, but also in improv comedy is this phrase, yes, and.
Brent Peterson (25:34.606)
Great, tell me the objective of your event. What are you hoping the event will be? What is your desire to help the event? Who is in my room? How many people are in my room? Where are they coming from? How do they get there? I'm going to say yes and...
Brent Peterson (25:50.826)
beginning of the year we met and she is an improv company.
Brent Peterson (26:00.718)
Yes and. I use it all the time. When I say yes to a keynote, I'm also saying and because I am known for making sure that these events organize and get what they need for. And I can't do that if I paint myself in a box. If I paint myself into a corner or lock myself in a box, then I don't have the ability to give them what they actually need. It's funny how often what we need and what we think we need are two different things. you know, as far as...
Marianne Hickman (26:02.585)
I use it all the time. When I say yes to a keynote, I'm also saying and because I am known for making sure that the event organizers get what they paid for. And I can't do that if I paint myself in a box. If I paint myself into a corner or lock myself in a box, then I don't have the ability to give them what they actually need. It's funny how often what we need and what we think we need are two different things. So,
you know, as far as why can't I or should I deliver the keynote over and over again, the adaptability to the audience, I can't emphasize that enough. It's absolutely paramount.
Brent Peterson (26:30.862)
I can't find what I'm looking for in this movie. I'm looking for the audience that I can't discuss with.
gave a corporate message, right? So you don't always expect that. My next question is a little bit self-serving, but I do think it's relevant. So if you are a speaker and you are so used to getting typecast in a certain topic, but you want to get into a new area, right? Because I believe there's always cross-pollination between industries and different topics.
Marianne Hickman (27:02.129)
West.
Marianne Hickman (27:08.689)
do it.
Brent Peterson (27:28.798)
and you feel like you're always getting selected to be a speaker for your topic about tech, but you want to do more topics about, or talks about something else. How, and I think you've said a lot of it and just asking a lot of questions of the organizers, which is, that's a great place to start. What are other things that a speaker could do if they're trying to move out of that typecast role?
Marianne Hickman (27:54.075)
I was listening to an interview with Matthew McConaughey, actually, and he has been historically known and typecast as the suave, romantic, debonair, romance novel actor on the screen. And he went through a very significant shift when he wanted to change what he was known for. And first of all, you have to ask yourself, what do I want to be known for?
Forbes Riley is known as the pitch queen and she has coined that for herself. She's done over $2 billion in pitches on infomercials and she is an expert on helping you find what do you want to become known for. Now, if your signature keynote is out of alignment with that, then you're going to start saying no to presentations that are out of alignment with what you want to be known for.
You just have to start saying no, and you will experience a dip in frequency of your keynotes. But once you stay committed and aligned to what you do want to become known for, and you start marketing yourself as that, creating a brand awareness for that, follow Deb Gabor, she's amazing at this, then you want to start getting on podcasts. And I'm name dropping a lot of my friends because I'm not the only resource out there. And I want people to go for the right people to get this. I also want to talk about my friend Kimberly, she just launched her book,
Yesterday she runs a podcast booking agency. I'm gonna share with you a tool that she shared with me on how to actually Leverage this and make yourself known for something specific So she says when you're applying up to podcasts and getting on more stages, but she's talking about podcast specifically She says you want to get on on out of a hundred podcasts get on 20 % of them that are in similar in authority Let's just say you're a speaking coach you speak on a podcast with another speaking coach because they're elevating your authority then the next
Brent Peterson (29:25.688)
you're applying on the podcast, it's getting on more stages.
Brent Peterson (29:37.934)
Let's just say you're a speaking coach, you speak on a podcast with another speaking coach because they're elevating your authority. Then the next 50 % of your podcasts you want to target for your ideal avatar. So if you're wanting to rebrand yourself, you've got to understand again who your audience is and then get on podcasts that are similar in nature to that audience. Not only demographically, but also where in your client's journey do they want you? And find those podcasts and get on them.
Marianne Hickman (29:45.063)
50 % of your podcasts you want to target toward your ideal avatar. So if you're wanting to rebrand yourself, you've got to understand again who your audience is and then get on podcasts that are similar in nature to that audience, not only demographically, but also where in your client's journey do they want you and find those podcasts and get on them. And then the last 30 % is through different angles. So for example, I train public speakers.
Brent Peterson (30:07.118)
30 % is through different angles. So for example, I train public speakers and I train entrepreneurs to know how to deliver their message on-page. But I also have these little elements of my personality and my history that are a specific angle. For example, I am divorced to be married. So I could hop on 30 % of the time a podcast about what are my dreams.
Marianne Hickman (30:12.615)
and I train entrepreneurs to know how to deliver their message on stage so that it makes them money. But I also have these little elements of my personality and my history that are a specific angle. For example, I'm divorced and remarried. So I could hop on 30 % of the time a podcast about what it's like to go through a divorce and to recover from that. I was also a single mom of five kids and that's a different angle. I also overcame bulimia and that's a different angle. I don't promote myself as a coach for any of these areas, but maybe someone else in that niche
Brent Peterson (30:35.738)
I don't promote myself as a coach for any these areas, but maybe someone else in that niche wants to follow the path that I did. So I'm going to hop on the podcast, talk to you that angle, and talk about that 30 % of the time.
Marianne Hickman (30:42.413)
wants to follow the path that I did. So I'm going to hop on a podcast, talking to that angle and talk about that 30 % of the time on and help those demographics of people. And pretty soon, once you stay consistent enough, you become known for exactly what you want to become known.
Brent Peterson (30:57.282)
That's good. We are going through time quickly today. When you're presenting yourself and maybe like how much is it of making that brand for yourself and what should you do? Let's just say you don't want to do it full time, but you would want to have this presentation and you would want to have a way of communicating what you've done. What's the best avenue to do that?
Marianne Hickman (31:25.492)
You mean like best platform to do it on and how to prepare?
Brent Peterson (31:28.546)
Yeah, maybe not platform, but fundamentals. I'm sure you should have a one pager and all these other fun things.
Marianne Hickman (31:35.171)
yeah, I mean the best thing to do, it's like when people think what do I do to start a business as an entrepreneur and the first thing they think of is go to mid journey and create a logo and then go buy a website and then go create business cards and all these things. Hogwash, nobody cares. You don't need to do that. Same thing as a speaker, you're gonna think you need to have a one sheet, you're gonna think you need to have a website, you're gonna think you need to have business cards and blah, blah, blah. All of that will come, but only do it when people ask for it. Otherwise you're just wasting your money, right?
The best thing that you can do to grow your business through speaking is to start speaking. If you wanna talk more, talk more. Hop on podcasts, apply to be on shows, get to know people, go to events, pay the most for that ticket that you possibly can, maybe even a little more than makes sense because you're gonna be in the room with other people who have done the same thing and you're gonna elevate your circle by being with like-minded individuals.
So start, just start, I can't say it enough. Open up your phone and go on Instagram Live before you go to bed tonight and just talk about your business and why you started it. Once you get asked to book on different stage and they ask for your one sheet, then make your one sheet because you didn't need it before that. Once people ask, hey, do you have a website? Then you say, actually, yeah, it's under construction. Hurry home and buy the URL, right? It's the yes and principle again. So I don't want you to waste time, energy, or money.
Brent Peterson (32:38.894)
and they ask for your one sheet, then make your one sheet, because you didn't need it before. Once people ask, do you have a website? And you say, actually, yeah, it's under construction. Hurry home and buy the new one.
I don't want you to waste time, energy, or money in building anything that your audience is asking for. Don't try and hard hold
Marianne Hickman (32:55.033)
in building anything that your audience isn't asking. Don't try and carve holes in the market. Just fill them when they appear.
Brent Peterson (33:02.542)
That's such great advice. I'm going to have to ask you to give us some of those links and some of those resources that we can put in the show notes after. So Mary Ann, we are running out of time and I do appreciate you being here. As we close out, I give everybody a chance to do a shameless plug about anything you want. It's your time to give that pitch or whatever you, however you want to call it. What would you like to plug today?
Marianne Hickman (33:12.827)
Yeah, you bet.
Marianne Hickman (33:27.067)
Yeah. Well, I just like to give the resource away. So I have a database of over, I think we're above 800 different podcasts now. I have aggregated them and these are all podcasts that have said that they need guests. And I have a podcast database available for people. If they just go to maryannhickman.com forward slash database, it's completely free. All I want to do is watch entrepreneurs, speakers, anyone that wants to talk and grow their business through the power of stages. I want them to have access to this. You can go on.
All of the shows on my database have promised not to charge guests to appear on their show. And if I hear anything different, I tell people to report it to me. But this is a resource for people to find the stage that they can use to talk about their business, that they can grow their audience, and then down the line, their revenues. They can keep doing what they love. So that's available for people. Just go get it, go get on stages and download it and go on your way.
Brent Peterson (34:20.974)
Perfect. I am reminded of an event that I go to in Cleveland, Ohio. Yes, it is a place. It's called CEX.events and it's about content entrepreneurs and they do a large segment on their content from people just like you that are helping other people become speakers or blogs or bloggers or podcasters or whatever that is.
Marianne Hickman (34:30.023)
you
Brent Peterson (34:48.622)
And I go every year this year next year. It's going to be in August I believe but CEX content up entrepreneurs expo It is such a great place especially if you're trying to kind of figure out from the beginning and what you'd like to do and You maybe you don't have a team yet, or you would like to get a team and there's so many great Talks that are there and inspiring that you can hear
and one last thing that I wanted to talk about, that CTA that you talked about, they usually give you actionable things that you can leave with that I think are so much more important than sitting through a mundane, a theoretical talk about here's what you could try to apply to your life or your speaking or your business or act. Those action items are so much more important than that than the theoretical items.
Marianne Hickman (35:36.911)
yeah, we're starving for things that we can actually check off the box on before we go to bed.
Brent Peterson (35:41.258)
Absolutely. Marianne Hickman, it's been such a great honor to speak to you today. Thank you.
Marianne Hickman (35:46.321)
Thank you so much for having me, Brent. It's been an incredible opportunity. I hope that everyone listening benefits from taking their entrepreneurship and their business to the next level by talking about it on stage.
Brent Peterson (35:56.814)
Perfect. Thank you. That went great.
Marianne Hickman (35:59.02)
Awesome awesome. How fun that's cool
Brent Peterson (36:02.83)
Yeah, think we're almost, we're, so Riverside is just going to tell me how fast each of our internet is.