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The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is a transformative and supportive Podcast, dedicated to helping those who are, or have been, abused by narcissists to heal from the ravages of narcissistic abuse. Our show is a lifeline for those who are looking for next steps in their emotional and psychological healing, offering expert guidance and practical solutions for those who are in narcissistic relationships or are rebuilding their lives after narcissistic abuse. The hosts are Attorney Padideh Jafari and Jon McKenney who have helped hundreds of people in their narcissistic abuse recovery and know the journey personally in their own lives.
Voiceover: In a world of hurt and pain, we find a way to break the chain. A caring heart, a guiding light, lead us through the darkest night. With preservation in our soul, we'll rescue those who've lost control, escape the grip of a narcissist on our journey to recovery bliss.
Jon McKenney:Padideh, this is the first time that we've not recorded from opposite sides of The United States.
Padideh Jafari:I know. It's great to have you in Cali, my hometown.
Jon McKenney:To be here.
Padideh Jafari:Yes.
Jon McKenney:And, we had our podcast launch party last night, and that was just amazing. We were at Firefly. Met some people who actually follow us, which is really fantastic, and, some potential collaboration, which is even better.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. You know, it's funny is halfway through the evening, these these two couples come up to us, and they said that they both had narcissistic abusive relationships. Yeah. And they wanted our information.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. In fact, if they saw the poster that that we had, this one right here. Yeah. It was it was this one here, right, that we had set out. And they go, I don't know.
Jon McKenney:I didn't know anybody ever did podcast stuff on that. And we're like, wow. And then she went to go a lady went to go, message me in Instagram. She's already following me. So it was kind of fun.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. That's amazing. I mean, I remember I had been drinking too much last night, and I said, you go talk to them. I remember that. That's exactly
Jon McKenney:we were talking about that on the way over, and, we said, you know what? I think that I think that Padida wanted me to do it because she she'd had a head start on the alcohol before
Padideh Jafari:me. Tipsy. Yes.
Jon McKenney:Yes. Or tispy. That's what we say sometimes. Yes. So so today's topic's gonna be kinda fun.
Jon McKenney:We wanna talk about male victims of narcissistic abuse. Yes. What do you think about that?
Padideh Jafari:Well, I think I am sitting with the king that invented that. I do think
Jon McKenney:it might as He
Padideh Jafari:has a you have, not he. You have a IG called male victims of female narcissists, and that's how we met.
Jon McKenney:It is. And do know why I created the channel? So when, most of you who've been following know my know my backstory, but if you you you don't, just real real briefly. I was married to a female narcissist for twenty seven years. And, the diagnosed variety, I had her diagnosed by a therapist as well, which is kind of unusual, but in turn of events made that happen too.
Jon McKenney:And as I started to try to heal, I started to read books and things, and the overwhelming majority of the material, I would say 95% or better of it, was written by women about men. Men were the only narcissists on the planet. And there were some things that I felt like I couldn't connect with in what I was reading. A man would approach it differently from a woman than a woman might approach it from a man. So that's why I actually started my channel to kinda kinda give an equal voice to men who were who were clearly enduring it as well.
Padideh Jafari:Right. But you never thought that you'd have over 10,000 followers. Right?
Jon McKenney:No. I in fact, no. Not at all. I started the thing. It was almost therapeutic for me to try and get out of my head some of the stuff that that I thought was rattling around in there.
Jon McKenney:And I thought, oh, okay. Maybe maybe it'll it'll help some other people who are going through it validate. And here we are a couple years later and 10,000 plus followers in a podcast with you and met some amazing people online who are in the same space. And it's it's been an incredible journey. Interestingly enough, half of my followers are women.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. I always find that fascinating because how does that actually happen that women are now following you as a male victims of female narcissists?
Jon McKenney:Do you know what they they see? They see the men in their lives being abused. So the the average person, the average female who who follows me either has a husband in a second marriage. They're they've they've married a husband who was married prior, and the that husband is still being abused by their their ex.
Padideh Jafari:Oh, I know that. I can share a story about that. Go ahead.
Jon McKenney:Okay. Well, go ahead. No.
Padideh Jafari:You're No. I mean, my my current my current and final husband. Last one. Last one. He's the last one.
Jon McKenney:This is it.
Padideh Jafari:This is it. Well, it's funny because on TikTok, they have this thing now where women are filming their husbands and they're saying, my current husband, my current husband. And the guy's like, what do you mean current husband? What are you talking about? But they're filming it, and you could see the guy's reaction.
Padideh Jafari:But no. Seriously. My last husband ever in the entire world so his wife his ex wife is a covert narcissist.
Jon McKenney:Mhmm.
Padideh Jafari:And I know exactly what you mean. So, like, when I met him, I said, show me your divorce documents. I wanna see them. I wanna see what she's saying about you. Right?
Padideh Jafari:And I mean, obviously, as a divorce attorney, I'm thinking like, okay, is this guy that awful? Right? So I'm reading the divorce documents and I'm going, the person that she's describing is not the person I'm falling in love with. And so through that journey, was like, I didn't even know about narcissism. That's how crazy it was.
Padideh Jafari:I learned it as a result of witnessing what he was going through. And I said one day, said, you know what? This they keep talking about narcissists narcissists on social media. So I started to research it. So that's why I say, for me, narcissism is only six years old, and it's as a result of my husband.
Jon McKenney:Right. And and you didn't even realize at the time you divorced that you were married to a narcissist at all.
Padideh Jafari:No. But he was a malignant narcissist. And I the word narcissist I had heard because with my ex husband, his ex wife had a book called how to deal with a narcissist, and he told me about it. So he's like, you know, when I was divorcing my first wife, she had a book about can you believe she thinks I'm a narcissist? And I was like, I didn't even know what that was.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. And I was like, oh, well, you know, I'm your savior. It's gonna be different with me. You know? I mean, I love you unconditionally.
Padideh Jafari:And so but it didn't really click until I met my husband
Jon McKenney:Mhmm.
Padideh Jafari:Six years ago that I was like, wait a minute. There's something really wrong here because the person in these documents that she's describing is not the person I'm falling in love with.
Jon McKenney:And this ex of your husband's is still trying to abuse him financially in in other kind of ways.
Padideh Jafari:Right. So we were talking, last night, you and I, with my husband because you're here in the flesh. So we get to talk to you about a lot of things that we don't normally get to talk to you about. But when we went to our our second son's graduation in May, he graduated from Wisconsin Madison. Mhmm.
Padideh Jafari:You know, I was really, really, really hesitant. And for about a month, I was having extreme anxiety. And I couldn't sleep. And I was thinking, we're gonna see his ex wife. You know, obviously, that's the mother Right.
Padideh Jafari:Of the children.
Voiceover:Sure.
Padideh Jafari:And so I was like, how do we kinda navigate this? And my husband was like, could you just relax? Could you just just do me a favor and just relax? Maybe we won't see her. And I'm like, no.
Padideh Jafari:I know something's gonna happen, and I'm very intuitive. You know that Mhmm. About me.
Jon McKenney:Absolutely.
Padideh Jafari:So long story short, we couldn't sit with our kids, our other two kids during the graduation, but we invited her to go to lunch with us. And everything was great, John. Like, everything was great. Like, we were sitting. We were talking.
Padideh Jafari:We were laughing with her. I offered to buy her a drink, the whole thing. And then that was on a Saturday. On Sunday night, she wrote my husband an email, sent it to our youngest son who's 21 years old and said, you owe me $52,000. And my husband
Jon McKenney:$52?
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. And my husband, like, thank God he didn't tell me because we were on we were, like, literally at the airport coming back to California. And so the next morning, I could just tell
Jon McKenney:somebody receipts, by the way. Just Yeah. Hey, by the way, here here, send me send me $52.
Padideh Jafari:And so the next morning, I said, what's wrong? You know, everything went went so well. Like, it was so he goes, I gotta tell you something. And I said, what? He goes, she sent an email through our son asking for $52,000.
Padideh Jafari:And they said, what receipts? Those are receipts. You know, I'm thinking, like, did we miss something? Did, you know, did you not pay her for something? And and I was like, what?
Padideh Jafari:He's like, no. There was nothing. She just said, you know, it was nice to see you. Here's you know, you owe 52,000 52 it's only a 5,200. I'd be like, here's a check for 5,200, but $52,000.
Jon McKenney:Unbelievable.
Padideh Jafari:So I'm still sort of dealing with that, and I've got one more year when the youngest graduates, then hopefully, we'll get
Jon McKenney:Hopefully, you're done. Yeah. Well, mean, is the kind of thing that I'm talking about and why women follow me. They see the abuse that their husbands get. And, of course, they're tied to their husband, and they they wanna know how to go deal with it.
Jon McKenney:And and and your husband because I I know John, he he does he he handles her and his situation very, very well. He doesn't let it get to him, which is Right. Fantastic.
Padideh Jafari:Well, he's no contact too.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. So there are other people who do not handle it so well, and and the the wives see the husbands getting abused, and they they wanna know how to go deal with these female narcissists. The other the other MO of people who follow me, women who follow me, are are women whose sons are being abused, and they're crushed over what's taken place. A lot of the a lot of the women who reach out to me, and they it's always so sweet. They ask if they can follow, and I'm like, absolutely, you can follow.
Jon McKenney:Nobody nobody should be abused. I'm trying to shine a light on men and female narcissism, and and absolutely you fit in here. But in in in most of the situations, their sons have married a female narcissist, and the female narcissist has done everything they can possibly do to make life difficult for the parent, particularly the mother.
Padideh Jafari:Yes.
Jon McKenney:And and is abusing the mother through the son. Oftentimes, you'll find a female narcissist married to one of these sons encourages the son to not communicate.
Padideh Jafari:Yes. So I had that situation. I was I was we were recently had a spa day in in a resort, actually in San Diego called, I think it's Aviala or something. Mhmm. And so I was getting a pedicure, and the lady mentioned this.
Padideh Jafari:She she was, you know, what do you do? You know, they always kinda talk. And and I said, oh, I'm an attorney. You know? And I always say, you know, I've launched a podcast.
Padideh Jafari:You know? And she said, what's the podcast about? And I said, you're narcissist. And she's like, oh my gosh. They seem to be so prevalent these days.
Padideh Jafari:She goes, you know what? I need to talk to you about something. And I was like, oh, god. Just let me relax. Like, you know because, like, whenever you say you're a divorce attorney, people either wanna tell you about their divorce or they're getting divorced.
Padideh Jafari:And you're just like, please, for the love of god, like, I don't wanna have this conversation. So she said that her son was married to a narcissist. So she believed that he was married to a narcissist. And I said, give me some examples. And two things that I did, I said, to follow you for male victims of female narcissist.
Padideh Jafari:And then I said, the second thing was listen to the podcast. Right. And she was so grateful. I think I texted you and I said, I we got a new listener because she was so thankful, but by the end of it, she was in tears.
Jon McKenney:Mhmm.
Padideh Jafari:She's like, my son like, this woman came into his life. My son is you know, they always say how good looking. Right? Their their child is like tall, good looking, blah blah blah. It looks like Chris Helmsworth.
Padideh Jafari:I was like, Chris Helmsworth. Let me see a picture. You know? She, like, shows me pictures. And by the way, she's doing my pedicure during this time.
Padideh Jafari:And so she's like, you you know, he she she got pregnant right away, married right away, pregnant right away, blah blah blah blah blah. And she was in tears. She's like, I have no relationship with my son and neither does his sister, my my daughter. And, she said, but I'm definitely gonna listen to your podcast. And she's like, what do I do?
Padideh Jafari:And I said, this you need to realize this is his journey. And the more you you talk bad about her, the more he's gonna cling to her because he's trauma bonded to her. And now she's pregnant. So, I said, you need to just kind of this is this is your road. Yeah.
Padideh Jafari:And that that's not your road. Right? And I said, but I will tell you, just be strong for when he comes back. Yep. Because he's gonna come back whether it's two, three, five kids down the road, he's coming back.
Jon McKenney:Yep. And that's ultimately what you kinda have to hope for is that these these sons or, you know, see clearly what's taking place. Because oftentimes, the mothers describe their son as having been very loving and them and them having been very close to them, and then they meet this woman who basically turns turns them against their own mother, and, and it's like the son takes on an almost different kind of personality and starts this abuse of the the mother, or removes themself completely from relationship with a mother, or they get dragged across The United States or across the world or wherever it might be by this person, and there's they're controlled. But I don't think I I don't think on the whole that people understand how often men are abused by narcissistic women, by female narcissists, whether it's a mother, whether it's a spouse, usually a spouse or that is the most common. And there there are some reasons for that, I think.
Jon McKenney:One one of the reasons I think that that that men kinda kinda don't measure up in all of this and most of the the material is written by women is that is that that men tend to be when they're narcissists, they tend to be more overt narcissists or what we call malignant narcissists. And those are the kinds that you can spot from across the room. So they tend to be rather aggressive and, and can be nasty and physical. And and that's that's the typical MO of of a male narcissist where where women kinda fly under the radar. They're they tend more towards the covert narcissist type, and and they'll do anything to kinda protect their image where the the a malignant narcissist kinda just doesn't care.
Jon McKenney:You know? They'll kinda lash out at everybody and everybody around them. There's this this group of people around them that know that that that a male is is a narcissist or know that there's a problem if they don't know it's narcissism. When it's a female, oftentimes, they they protect their image above all else. And the men, because he's kind of being privately abused, kinda looks like the crazy one.
Jon McKenney:So he may act out aggressively towards the covert narcissist who's lying and gaslighting and has no empathy for him whatsoever and uses him or or financially abuses him like in your particular situation. The the the women are doing this behind the scenes, and and he's acting out or lashing out and and it makes him look like the crazy one instead.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. And, you know, I just wanna say as a woman, there are covert female narcissists. Like, we need to acknowledge that as a society Mhmm. Because I feel like when it comes to abuse of men I mean, listen. I'm obviously married, happily married.
Padideh Jafari:I've I grew up with two brothers. I had a great father. I'm telling you that women do abuse men. And they I don't know if it's fifty fifty. I don't know if it's
Jon McKenney:Well, talk talk about your experience, though. I mean, you've you work in circles with narcissists, And you've you've spoken to me some things about that, about kind of women versus men. What what would you say about that? Like, from your personal experience?
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. From my personal experience, I've, you know, had clients that were men that were abused by female narcissists, you know. And it was interesting this one story, you know, obviously, I can't discuss anything confidential. But many years ago, somebody came to me and he said, you know, I cheated on my wife. And he was really, like, eager to tell me that.
Padideh Jafari:As a divorce attorney, you're almost like they're priest because they're just
Jon McKenney:like gotta hear it all.
Padideh Jafari:You gotta hear it all. And you want to hear it all because you wanna make sure if there's something really bad, you're, like, plugging that hole right away. Right? Either you're disclosing it to opposing counsel right away. Thankfully, in California, it's a no fault state.
Jon McKenney:Right.
Padideh Jafari:Although some people don't like that. They think it should be like Georgia that is fault, you know, based. So anyway, he said, you know, I cheated on her, and I just it's really important that you know that. And I'm like, okay. So he starts talking to me.
Jon McKenney:At least it's honest. Right?
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. Nothing else. And I was like, okay. Great. Next topic.
Padideh Jafari:You know? Because I'm like, that's it's no fault. And he said, the reason it's important for me to tell you that is because I was abused for fifteen years by this woman. And I knew that the only way to get out of the marriage is to cheat.
Jon McKenney:I've heard that before.
Padideh Jafari:And I was like, that like shocked me. I said, what? I've never heard that before. He goes, no. No.
Padideh Jafari:No. She was not going to let me go.
Jon McKenney:And by the way, we don't necessarily recommend that as a strategy to go leave your narcissist or anybody Right. For that matter.
Padideh Jafari:Unless I cheated which, you know, kind of like her ego was damaged Right.
Jon McKenney:At that
Padideh Jafari:point, which we know that narcissists have big egos. And so he said, but now I have to give her everything in order to actually get rid of her. And so I said, okay. Are you ready to do that? Give her the house.
Padideh Jafari:Give her the kids. Give he's like, absolutely. Mhmm. Otherwise, if I don't continue this, like, relationship that I have on this side that I'm really not even interested in, but for getting my my wife out. So he literally signed all the documents to give her everything and move on with his life and peace.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that happens. They're they're so I I I think that that that men have this tolerance also, you know, that that that men are expected to take some abuse from women. You know, I I as I started venturing into this male victims of female narcissist space, I started to talk to some people who are men whose marriages I respected, and I was shocked.
Jon McKenney:And I mean shocked at the number of men who said they'd taken a punch from their wife.
Padideh Jafari:A physical punch?
Jon McKenney:Physical punch.
Padideh Jafari:Wow.
Jon McKenney:Like, are you out of your mind? This this happened? You you have such a great marriage. And and even in good marriages, this kind of stuff happens. So I think that I think that men in some respects are expected to take the abuse.
Jon McKenney:And if they don't take the abuse, they're seen as not masculine.
Padideh Jafari:That's crazy. I never thought about that.
Jon McKenney:It is crazy. So so to just acknowledge for a man to acknowledge that he's being abused is a shot much less from a woman is a shot personally to his own seemingly so is a shot to his own personal masculinity. So so men don't even acknowledge the abuse well. There was a a lady I met on Instagram when I first kinda joined, and a dear, dear woman. Her her name is doctor Retha Stewart.
Jon McKenney:And, Retha, if you're listening out there, you really helped me in many ways when we we conversed back then. But she was working on, I think it was her PhD, if I'm not mistaken. She's a doctor. And, and she was doing research on how men perceive abuse. And and through her research, she discovered that men could not even easily just embrace the word.
Jon McKenney:Abuse. Abuse. Like, to say that a man for a man to acknowledge that he's abused is very, very difficult. And, and we we were trying to come up together with some language that that we felt resonated. And the the language we we felt resonated that men could identify with was undeserved cruelty.
Jon McKenney:Are you be are you experiencing undeserved cruelty from somebody?
Padideh Jafari:You've said that before. I think that's such a great way to frame it for men. Because I know with my husband, he doesn't want to acknowledge that he was fooled and duped and abused. Like, those words you cannot like, you know my husband's very very even keeled. Absolutely.
Padideh Jafari:He's very stoic. If you tell him that, if you say, you you know, she fooled you. You know, she abused you. He gets really upset because that that speaks to his masculinity.
Jon McKenney:Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. And and if if somebody acknowledges that, they see themselves as as less than a man, they feel like they've not been able to go manage their their marriage or their their family, and and it makes them feel less than. So so to so for them to acknowledge it themselves is hard, much less having the rest of the world acknowledge that men have been abused also in in in particularly in recent years with the Me Too movement and things like that.
Jon McKenney:It seems like people attach belief to a woman's statement immediately and and discard a man's. I know I experienced that even in my own home church. When they found out I was divorcing, my ex got all of the attention, and and and they listened to her story. And and in fact, I found that she'd been kinda seeing the at least one of the pastors behind the scenes for years saying, god knows what. And then when when I pulled the the the trigger and and and divorced, they wouldn't even talk to me.
Jon McKenney:Like, I I I I asked, they instead of actually having a conversation with me, they sent me some nasty emails telling me that basically I was going to hell. And and and and I said, hey, well, know, I'd be happy to meet with you and sit down and have a conversation. They would not even entertain the conversation with me to find like, you know, in in again, my my ex had some issues where she was kind of pretending she had cancer and she had an emotional obsession, with an ex boyfriend. And and they're not interested in these things. So so I couldn't even get a hearing from people who should care.
Jon McKenney:And in fact, that was the story across the board. They found out I was divorced. Didn't wanna hear about nobody wanted to hear about it. Where she could have the conversation, she could talk about it and did talk about it to other people. I was not even permitted to have the conversation at all.
Padideh Jafari:Right. And and it's like, you know, with your situation and my my husband's, it's like, oh, a single mom of three, a single mom of four. Like, how dare he? How dare he do this? They are not concerned about him and his story
Jon McKenney:Correct.
Padideh Jafari:Of abuse. They're just as a society, that's why I'm saying we need to do better, and we need to at least give a voice to each side. Like, I will be honest with you. We have, these really good friends of ours. They're they're filing for divorce.
Padideh Jafari:And so I was like, I'm not representing either because I love them both. Obviously, she's a little bit more my friend, and the man is a little bit more friends with with my husband. They play golf. And so I wanna you know, when she says things, I wanna, like, unless I can verify with him that she what she say is accurate, I have no place for it. Right?
Padideh Jafari:I'm like, I'm just hearing your side of the story. It's like the person that goes to court and talks first, the judge is like shaking their head. They're like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Padideh Jafari:Sounds good.
Jon McKenney:Talks first thing is a big deal. You tend to you tend to believe what you first hear.
Padideh Jafari:Right. And then you the second person or the opposing person that talks, they're like, oh, really? And, like, the first person left out a lot of things. Right? So my strategy in court, for anyone listening, is let the other person speak first.
Padideh Jafari:I wanna know like, I jot down, okay, what are they saying? What are their arguments? Okay. And then I come in with the truth. Mhmm.
Padideh Jafari:Especially when you're dealing with a narcissist in court, you know, a lot of the things are fabricated. Yeah. So you can have, like, physical evidence in sort of your binder to show, like, this is all lies. These are fabrications, and they're gross fabrications. These are not little lies, by the way, that narcissists tell in court.
Padideh Jafari:So they're trying to get garner sympathy and, you know, a different narrative than the truth because the truth is
Jon McKenney:Correct.
Padideh Jafari:They suck at marriage.
Jon McKenney:Absolutely. And where where I think that if if people had heard my story or or or cared to hear it, right, they would have gone, okay. Pretending she had cancer? And mostly, when, you know, you get tired of kind of explaining when, you know, people find out that you're divorced initially, particularly upfront. You're divorced?
Jon McKenney:Why? And what I tried to do is kind of dumb it down to the the since I didn't wanna have a lot of conversation about it, dumb it down to the most ridiculous thing. Well, she's kinda pretending she had cancer. They go, what? Yeah.
Jon McKenney:That was kinda the highlight. You know? So end of conversation, they go, oh, wow. And and and and and ultimately, the kinds of things I experienced, the abusive things I I kind of experienced were were so bad that, I mean, I was in a position where I was, you know, I I was praying that God would take my life. I mean, was it was that bad.
Jon McKenney:You know, two death do us part, and I used to pray, God, I'm ready to go. Because I didn't I didn't wanna I didn't wanna divorce. And at the same time, I knew I couldn't stay in this thing and survive. It was really an act of of self preservation to to divorce. I I in fact, I don't believe in divorce.
Jon McKenney:I I don't recommend divorce necessarily either. But I found that I was in a position where I I just had no choice. And and people weren't listening to me. And and it made it very, very difficult. And through the process also, you know, I'm glad to hear that you you're like, I I wanna hear both sides of the thing.
Padideh Jafari:Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. And you know what's interesting? We talk so much about my my older mom.
Padideh Jafari:Right? My elderly mom on this podcast. She's always told us growing up. She said, there's always two sides to a story when it comes to a husband and wife, and nobody knows the truth unless you lived with them inside the house.
Jon McKenney:100%. Even the kids.
Padideh Jafari:Right. Even the kids don't know. So especially with covert narcissists because they're they're they're not being truthful. They're always, you know, lying.
Jon McKenney:Yep. And trying to protect their image above all else. Again, they do not wanna look like the violator in any in any kind of way. I can remember asking my ex. I'd sent her to to therapists through the throughout the process because I I thought she had issues with men and she needed to resolve these kinds of things and she was not getting better.
Jon McKenney:And I can remember asking her one day, I said, are you are you being truthful with the therapist? And she goes, well, she said, I'm I'm telling her what she wants to hear so so that she'll think there's nothing wrong with me. Her exact words, which, again goes to this is this is kind of how narcissists go. They wanna protect female narcissists go. They they tend to run under the radar, and they wanna protect their image above all else, and they wanna make the man look like the idiot and the and the crazy one.
Padideh Jafari:Okay. Let me circle back. So she said to you that she was telling the therapist that she's supposed to be 100% honest with. Right? She told you that she was telling the therapist what the therapist wanted to hear.
Jon McKenney:Absolutely. 100%.
Padideh Jafari:Oh my goodness. Just when you think just when you think covert narcissists can't get any worse, your ex surprises me.
Jon McKenney:The moments of honesty are rare, but when you get them, they're gems. You know?
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. That's crazy to me.
Jon McKenney:John, and then in that moment, I thought, what about all the money we wasted? This is, well, you know, it's kinda crazy, but, but that's that's how they go. They they they try to protect their image above all else. They throw the man under the bus. They they tend to weaponize the children and involve them in ways they shouldn't, like like Yes.
Jon McKenney:Like your husband's ex sending an email through the 21 year old to his dad, and and and they can weaponize the children against the father. And generally speaking, I think the courts are less favorable towards men and their relationships with children, than with the woman. Usually usually, you know, even the kids are gonna go with the woman in some kind of way and get primary custody for the most part. That doesn't mean shared custody can exist, but but I think the court system is negatively disposed towards men.
Padideh Jafari:Well, it's funny because twenty two years ago, I would say that that statement was correct when I first started practicing. Yeah. But as I know California, it's an evolving court. Yes. And I know that as women have got entered into the workforce and become educated to enter into the workforce, that's not necessarily true in California.
Jon McKenney:I'm glad to hear that.
Padideh Jafari:Courts are more fifty fifty. They wanna know, like it used to be where where we'd go to court and say, well, you know, we represent the mom and she's a stay at home mom. And so that was like, okay. Of course, she's gonna get more time because dad's at work. So we'd rather have the child be with one of the parents.
Padideh Jafari:Right? And so now that argument doesn't work because if mom is also working full time, if dad is working full time, then the argument they then you can't have that argument. Right? So courts in California, they there's not a presumption of fifty fifty in Florida. It's a presumption of fifty fifty
Voiceover:Yes.
Padideh Jafari:Which I'm not going to tell you what my opinion is, but but, you know, there's a presumption. So, like, Michigan, I was an attorney in Michigan, as you know, for a very high profile case. And there was a presumption of fifty fifty. So we had to show in that case that the father had molested and raped his three and a half year old. And so because of that, that presumption should not be should not prevail.
Padideh Jafari:Correct. And this is the reason why. And so but it was an uphill battle. Mhmm. Like, CPS had to testify.
Padideh Jafari:We had to get the rape kit. We had to get all the things. Okay? Because a district attorney in Michigan would not prosecute because the child could not really you know, can't testify. Right?
Jon McKenney:So And with with covert narcissists also working to preserve their their their persona, their public persona, and make themselves look good, they often involve the kids. And in my particular situation, you know, the the courts were irrelevant because I didn't I I waited till till my kids were out of out of high school, in order to divorce. But she'd been working on them so long, they didn't they chose not to have relationship with me by and large. So so they're weaponizing even behind the scenes without without the courts having been involved. They're they're helping the kids not choose the man, unfortunately.
Jon McKenney:Where I can honestly say, I just didn't ever have conversation with my ex with my kids about my ex at all. I I wanted and continue to want them to view her in a favorable light. She's their mother, and and they always need a relationship with her, so I'll speak favorably and do. And and the issues that we had are between she and I.
Padideh Jafari:Correct.
Jon McKenney:And that is not that is absolutely not how my ex went and and and handled that with my children. Say, she was working on them for I can I can see now years back trying to create a a false image of me, so that they would choose not to have relationship with me?
Padideh Jafari:Well, two things I wanna say about that. The first is you're absolutely 100% correct. And when does this parental alienation happen? I believe it happens the day that they meet you. So the day that they meet you and they're like, I'm gonna have a child with this person.
Padideh Jafari:Even before they're pregnant or anything like that, they're thinking, I'm gonna get that kid on my side.
Jon McKenney:I absolutely. And I could go back even for me, I wouldn't go back quite that far, but from the time my kids were born, where she's kind of pushing me aside, where I wanted to be involved, like she had to win. She had to be the primary caretaker. She had to be the one. I always felt I can I can remember telling her when when my kids were little, I feel like I'm in competition with you?
Jon McKenney:This is not a competition. I'm their I'm their father and I can I can help and do these kinds of things, and you're kind of stiff arm me, always trying to push me away, and I think it's to foster that dependence on them? Yes. So that when the time comes, in in the back of their minds, they know something's gonna happen. When the time comes, they're ready, and they've won the children.
Padideh Jafari:Well, also, the second thing I wanted to say, you're absolutely right, is that narcissists are afraid of abandonment. Remember that a narcissist is not born a narcissist. Some trauma happens, I believe, you know, going back to Freud who I I really admire, which probably gonna get some hell for that in the comments, is from nine to I think you said seven. I would say nine to three to three to nine is the age, I think. Some trauma happens to the narcissist.
Padideh Jafari:Either they were abandoned, abused, neglected, whatever it is, and then they grow up with this alter ego. Yes. And so they grow up always having to self protect. So they know when they meet you, you're going to leave them. And they'll they'll admit that.
Padideh Jafari:They'll say, you're gonna leave me at some point, and all you're doing is you're trying to show them unconditional love. Like Mhmm. I'll never leave you. And that's what they want. Mhmm.
Padideh Jafari:They want that victim that's never gonna leave. And so, absolutely, you know, I
Jon McKenney:In fact, it's interesting you said that. You know, the the therapist I took I I took my ex to, I had her tell her that she was narcissist. I said she needs to know because if something's wrong with a person, they need to know. She said, I don't know about that. She she was probably smarter than I was in it.
Jon McKenney:She said, I just don't think that's gonna go well. And she and I said, I I just I really feel strongly about this. If she's got something wrong with her, she needs to know. Yes. At at at least you need to say it.
Jon McKenney:Yes. And and she did at one point in time have a conversation with her where she told her that, she felt like she had a cluster b personality disorder. She lived somewhere between borderline and narcissistic personality disorder close closer to the narcissist. And this therapist told me about the the conversation and she said, my ex responded to her, but I'm not a narcissist, am I? She says, I'm not telling you.
Jon McKenney:You're a narcissist, but I'm telling you that I think you have a cluster b personality disorder, and that you live somewhere between borderline and narcissistic personality disorder. And she goes, but I'm not a narcissist. Right? She goes, again, I'm telling you that that I think you have a cluster b personality disorder and that you live somewhere between narcissist and and borderline. She goes, well, as long as I'm not a narcissist.
Jon McKenney:And the therapist said to her, I just want you to know if you continue down this path that I do believe that you'll be divorced. Now at the time, I'd not even breathe the word because I took me twenty five years to even ascent to the fact that that was a possibility. It was just not in my mind. But the therapist had the insight at the time, and I think perhaps knew knew me better than I knew myself in these conversations to say, you know, to my ex, this is coming. Right.
Jon McKenney:And she her response was, oh, he'll never leave me. And she goes, I don't think that's I don't think that's the case. And and sure enough, you know, I a couple of years later, I I pulled the plug and and and we divorced. And and and ultimate ultimately, in these kinds of situations, women are like you said, they're kind of, in some respects, preparing for it, but they exterior on the exterior, they they really don't necessarily want to admit it. Now I would tell you also that I think my ex's situation, she had a kind of a hereditary component in these kinds of things.
Jon McKenney:As I look back on her mother's relationship with her husband, she handled it the exact same way. She bad mouthed the husband to the children. She had her own little tribe with the kids. The father was always ostracized from the family, and men experience that even when they're before they're divorced. The the the narcissistic mother will kinda push them away and and they're they're outsiders in their own families.
Padideh Jafari:Right.
Jon McKenney:So so there was a hereditary component for her as well where I think narcissistic behavior was modeled by by her mother.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. So, I mean, I just think it's I just think it's fascinating. I feel like all the stories are different, but the blueprint of the covert narcissist is always the same.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. And what you described with the trauma, my ex has that as well on top of it. So trauma at a very young age, and, and then ultimately, you know, they they develop this lack of conscience from that trauma. And instead of they don't have the resources to kind of cope with it, so they push it out of their head. They they disconnect.
Jon McKenney:They dissociate from it, and this becomes their coping mechanism as they get older. And they don't ever want to have a conscience, because if they had a conscience and would evaluate their own behavior, they would find that, and they don't wanna find it.
Padideh Jafari:Right. That's that's a great way of saying that. Yeah. Yeah. I know with my my husband's ex wife, she's the youngest of nine.
Padideh Jafari:Mhmm. And her father had multiple children that she doesn't even know, like, step kids and the all these other kids. And then and he was, I believe, an alcoholic and died at a at a young age, believe it or not, after the nine kids. And she had to fend for herself. There was no food in the house.
Padideh Jafari:She's always fending for herself. So she tells our boys when they say, mom, like, dad gives money for child support because in New York, it's until 21 or 22 if they're in college.
Jon McKenney:Yeah.
Padideh Jafari:Thankfully, in California, it's still 18 or 19 if they're in high school. So we're still paying child support. And she says, well, I didn't have food when I was little. Why do you think you deserve to have food in the house?
Jon McKenney:Wow.
Padideh Jafari:And they're just like, because dad gives you money for us. So we're not even asking you. Right? They're older so they can say that. We're not even asking you to spend your own money, but dad gives you money.
Padideh Jafari:No. That's my money. That's not your money.
Jon McKenney:And this is child support.
Padideh Jafari:Correct. So I'm just telling you, so they have food insecurity. I don't wanna cry, but they have food insecurity.
Jon McKenney:Unbelievable.
Padideh Jafari:And because of that, I mean, they're six foot two, so you can imagine they work out. They play sports. They need, you know, a lot of food, and they have food insecurity. So I'm constantly sending them $100 here, $50 here. Can I have money for food?
Padideh Jafari:Can I have money? We're constantly doing that on top of support.
Jon McKenney:Which is which is abuse by a female narcissist of her own children. Correct. When you're experiencing
Padideh Jafari:Correct.
Jon McKenney:The the men in your life are experiencing it experiencing it on multiple levels. You have your husband who's experiencing it from his ex, and then you have his sons who are also experiencing it from their mother.
Padideh Jafari:Correct. And so we are we're hypervigilant to make sure that one of them doesn't become a narcissist. Right? And so we have our eye on one. I won't say which one, but I think we talked about this last night.
Padideh Jafari:My husband talked to you about it. Like, we're a little bit afraid. Right? Because this is gonna breed narcissism.
Jon McKenney:Yes. Well, can because, again, the the goals are different. You know, the the narcissist is always looking for dependence from the children, and they're not where a father, I think, particularly is trying to raise kids who are more independent. And the narcissist wants nothing but dependence and control of the children. So they're trying to manipulate the children into this control sort of thing where they can get whatever they want out of them.
Jon McKenney:And if they don't, they discard them like they would anybody else that who kind of comes against them. But but again, your your kids are enduring this. Your sons are enduring this in in a very difficult way, and they're gonna have to, you know, hopefully understand this and kind of work their way out of it because they've been modeled. They've had narcissistic tendencies modeled from their their mother as my kids have as well. My kids, I'm I'm frightened some days because of the the way they handle conflict and the way they they disrespect me is exactly the way her her she disrespected her her father and exactly the way her mother modeled this to the child.
Jon McKenney:And I I I hope that one day my kids kinda figure it out and and understand it. And this these are the results of stuff that goes on with female narcissistic abuse. Now I wanna say to men, you're you're not alone in this. And and the fact that that you couldn't make this work with your narcissistic wife is not your fault. You know, I was telling you earlier about the rare moments of honesty with my ex, and and I can remember her saying something to me one time where was talking about how she was treating me, and her words to me were, well, I would have done this with anybody.
Jon McKenney:Oof. Right?
Padideh Jafari:I just got shivers when you just said that.
Jon McKenney:I would have done this with anybody. That's scary. It is scary. And and that's the reality, man, of your situation. This is not personal against you.
Padideh Jafari:Yes.
Jon McKenney:This is not a lack of your ability to go manage your your marriage or your family. This is this is not your doing. If if the this female narcissist had married somebody else, this would have happened. And some of the some of the some of the male victims I I I talked to on on Instagram, their their wives have discarded them, and they are on in another relationship. And they're like, well, what's your advice?
Jon McKenney:And I go, grab some popcorn and watch the
Padideh Jafari:show. Yes.
Jon McKenney:Because you are going to see this again. As they get involved with other people, you will you will see this narcissistic abuse surface itself in their next relationship.
Padideh Jafari:Right. And to your point, there's been situations where the ex husband who was abused will get a call from the new husband who's saying, by the way, did this happen to you? Because they were also being abused. Right? And so to your point, that happens.
Padideh Jafari:I mean, mind you, my husband what has been divorced fifteen years.
Jon McKenney:Wow.
Padideh Jafari:This is not something that just happened where you're like, okay. Three months ago, they finalized. This is fifteen years.
Jon McKenney:And she is still
Padideh Jafari:Yes.
Jon McKenney:She is still trying to financially abuse him.
Padideh Jafari:Yes. And then, they were married for fourteen years, and then fifty so it's thirty years of abuse that he suffered. And when you talk about, you know, wanting to take your own life, that is also a conversation that needs to be had because we know people that have men who have taken their own lives, and my husband was, you know, attempted it.
Jon McKenney:And by the way, statistically speaking, men are far more likely to do that than women.
Padideh Jafari:Right. Then that's a a conversation too that we should we should have. You know? What happens when the man is at the last stop? You know?
Padideh Jafari:Yep. And he's like, listen. My husband said, I'm gonna put all the money in trust accounts for my sons, and I'm going to do it. And it was really by the grace of God that he didn't.
Jon McKenney:Mhmm.
Padideh Jafari:And so to that makes me angry. Mhmm. That like, when you talk about, like, what makes the woman reach out to you, stories like that.
Jon McKenney:Mhmm.
Padideh Jafari:Like, you were going to be the cause of my husband not being here whether I'm with him or not. Yep. Like, how dare you? And so that's the anxiety I was feeling, like, a a month before seeing her at the graduation. Now we have another graduation next year.
Padideh Jafari:So, you know, I'll talk to you about that off the record, but it's tough.
Jon McKenney:Yeah. Well, men know you're know you're not alone. Know that this is not a failure on your part, that this would have happened no matter what, whether they it's not and it's not personal. It's not because of you. That if they'd married somebody else, again, you they would have encountered and done these same kinds of things.
Jon McKenney:And I would I would encourage you to one other thing, which is to go find some people who believe you. There are people who will believe you, who understand these kinds of things. Seek out and try to find people who understand something about narcissistic abuse and and see if you can't reach out to them. I have I have a friend, that I work with who is a a clinical therapist at one time, and for years, he just listened to me and and watched, you know, the abuse go on. Interestingly enough, never told me to divorce, not a single time.
Jon McKenney:I had to allow me to come to that conclusion on my own, and I had to go do that. But but his listening, was helpful. My my best friend also who happens to be in studio with us kinda watching today also did nothing but listen and continues to listen when I I need to talk. And there there are times that I still need to talk about these kinds of things. Because these these this situation is woven into the fabric of my life.
Jon McKenney:And although I've been divorced for five years, that doesn't mean the pain goes away. That doesn't mean I don't have to deal with some of the fallout of this. Like like your husband is still, you know, hey. Here's a here here's a here's a a bill for $52,000. No receipts attached, but I'd like for you to write the check.
Jon McKenney:It's crazy. And years later, even even after a divorce, some of these female narcissists come back and still continue to try abuse men try to abuse men. So so you have to you have to have people around you who who love you and are willing to listen. And and the best gift you can give somebody, particularly a guy, I think, in this who's living these kinds of situation is to believe them. That's that's the greatest gift I think you you can give a man who might be enduring these kinds of things.
Jon McKenney:And when he talks about the situations, because the the female narcissist is often so vehemently protective of their their public persona. Initially, when you when when a man starts talking about these kinds of things, it's like, there's no there's no way this can be happening. If they know they know the one there's just no no way that she could be doing this or she could be doing that. It's very hard for for other people outside to wrap their minds around this kind of thing happening because because the narcissist is covert and is protecting their public image because they're and they're good at it.
Padideh Jafari:They're great at it. Yeah. They're great
Jon McKenney:at it. So the man so you're going, I'm going crazy do dealing with this kind of thing. Her image looks fantastic. You're falling apart, and they're going, you're the crazy one. That's the natural conclusion.
Jon McKenney:So if if a man comes to you and says, I'm experiencing these kinds of things, the best gift you could give him is to believe him and to listen.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. That's great advice. And, also, to follow you on Instagram, obviously, to listen to our podcast, and you do a lot of coaching with men as well and women. Yep. And so definitely, you know, reach out.
Padideh Jafari:You're not alone. I wish that I knew that. My husband says this all the time. I wish I had you guys when I was going through this. You know, he's
Jon McKenney:I wish I had us guys when we were going through it.
Padideh Jafari:He listens. A lot of times, we'll go like, we'll drive to San Diego. We'll go to Palm Springs. We'll go to, Santa Barbara. So we do these long drives, and he'll listen to us, and he'll go, gosh, I wish I had that.
Padideh Jafari:Yeah. You know? Gosh, I wish I had this wisdom. Yep. And so he didn't even know what it was to your point.
Jon McKenney:And one of the other things I wanna say before we kinda close out here today is this. Because we're talking about men here and how they they are victimized by female narcissists, does not mean that we don't care about women, and and and they're being victimized by male narcissists as well.
Padideh Jafari:Of Of course.
Jon McKenney:That's we we you know, nobody nobody should have to go through that male or female. So if if if you're in a place where you're being victimized by a narcissist, we want you to know that we're with you, male or female. We just wanna take the day today to to kinda shine a light on on how men are perceived with this because it really is different And and we're more likely seen even in situations where we're victimized as the crazy ones. And it's it's it's just it's just different. We wanna shine a light on that today.
Jon McKenney:It's good conversation today.
Padideh Jafari:Yes. It was great to have you in studio.
Jon McKenney:It is so nice to look across the the couch at you today instead of having to just stare at you at a screen. And, Lina and JC, who I just met in person for the first time, thank you guys for being a part of our journey here. Olus Media is where we're at today recording, and they got us started. And, we're indebted to you for your work with us. So thank you so much.
Jon McKenney:You can look them up at olusmedia.com, I think, if, you're interested. And, and they're wonderful people and, can help you get going on a podcast like they did us. Other than that, you can find us on Instagram at narc.podcast. This one right here at Jafari Legal on on Instagram, and I'm male victims of female narcissists on Instagram as well. So we hope you have a wonderful afternoon.
Jon McKenney:Thank you for, the conversation with us and enjoying your time.
Voiceover:The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel discusses very emotional situations, including suicide. If you are in that situation, we recommend that you immediately seek out professional help because you are important and your life is worth preserving. Please take this seriously and tell someone your situation. To reach the National Suicide Hotline, call or text 988 from any phone. Thank you for listening to the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel.
Voiceover:Be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. To hear other episodes or read the associated blogs, visit www.narcissistabuserecoverychannel.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram with the handled narc. Podcast. The guest views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are their own. The information presented is for general informational purposes only and is not intended to be legal advice.
Voiceover:The co hosts are not licensed therapists. Seek professional help as information is often state specific. The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is produced in studios in California and Georgia.