074 | Danil Nevsky | Hospitality vs. Drinks Industry: Navigating the Bartender-Brand Relationship | Indie Bartender

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In this episode, I host the legendary Indie Bartender, Cocktailman Danil Nevsky for a deep dive into the dynamic world of bartending and brand interactions.

We discuss the evolution of the hospitality and drinks industry, and tackle the ongoing disconnect between bartenders and brand managers.

Danil offers insightful critiques on the state of the industry, sharing anecdotes and observations on brand ambassadors' roles, the rise of cocktail culture, and the generational shift in bartending.

We also explore the adaptation of bar experiences to be more consumer-friendly and the critical role of social media in modern bartending.

The episode is both a nostalgic look back and a hopeful glance forward, making it a must-listen for anyone interested in the symbiotic relationship between bars and brands. I hope you will enjoy our chat

NB It contains Hard Language, which is not suitable for all audiences.

Time Stamps

00:00 Introduction to the Podcast

01:20 Meet Danil Nevsky: Indie Bartender

02:29 The Disconnect Between Bartenders and Brands

04:20 The Evolution of the Spirits Industry

06:22 Generational Drinking and Market Changes

07:59 The Role of Brand Ambassadors

09:21 The Impact of Social Media and Technology

13:14 Challenges in Brand and Bar Collaboration

16:04 The Future of Bartending and Brand Interactions

38:04 The Evolution of Cocktail Content Creators

38:44 The Oral Tradition of Bartending

39:12 The Impact of Content Creators on Bartending

44:14 Brand Relationships in the Bar Industry

46:43 Balancing Brand and Bar Dynamics

51:47 The Role of Bartenders in Enhancing Customer Experience

55:47 Cultural Influences on Cocktail Culture

01:06:16 The Future of Cocktail Culture

01:10:35 Final Thoughts and Farewell

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Danil Nevsky

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Danil Nevsky

Founder | Indie Bartender | Cocktailman

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
podcast.

I'm your host, Chris Mafia.
In this episode, I host the

legendary indie bartender Daniel
Nevsky, also known as Cocktail

Man, for a deep dive into the
dynamic world of bartending and

brand interactions.
We discussed the evolution of

the hospitality and drinks
industry and tackle the ongoing

disconnect between bartenders
and brand managers.

Daniel offers insightful
critiques on the state of the

industry, sharing anecdotes and
observation on brand

ambassador's roles, the rise of
cocktail culture, and the

generational shift in
bartending.

We also explored the adaptation
of bar experiences to be more

consumer friendly and the
critical role of social media in

modern bartending.
The episode is both a nostalgic

look back and a helpful glance
forward, making it a must listen

for anyone interested in this
symbiotic relationship between

bars and brands.
I hope you will enjoy our chat.

A small ass that means a lot to
me.

If you enjoy this podcast, take
the time to leave a review on

Spotify or Apple Podcast.
You will also find a detailed

transcript of this episode on
mafiadrinks.substack.com where

it gets pre released 24 hours
before other platforms.

Hi Daniel, how you doing?
Great.

How are?
You, I'm good, I'm good, thank

you.
And it's a great honour to have

you on the third drinks podcast.
It's I've been following you for

a while and I always see you in
some party at bar Convent in

Berlin.
And then I see you passing by

like meth a or and I never get a
really get to to talk to you.

And I remember actually the very
first time I met you was when he

was nicked us in an after party.
I was with Alex Oziel and you

were, you were dressed with, I
don't know, high heels.

It was our drag, drag party.
Exactly it was like a drag queen

kind of thing and that that's
How I Met you.

I I saw you the first time, so I
met you at the at the top of

your game, so to say.
So let's let's start like I have

a few questions that I want to
ask you and I want to you know,

I really love what you're doing.
We are quite complementary

because we take the bottom up
approach from two different

angles, like you are more on the
bartender and bar side of

things, are more on the brand's
side of things and then they

meet in the middle and connect.
For sure.

So let's actually start with
this question.

Like I was actually discussing
this with a few people and like

a lot of the misunderstandings
between brands and bartenders

and bars.
I think that comes from the fact

that we claim that the drinks
and hospitality industry are the

same industry.
But actually they are two sides

like the Ying and Yang of the
bar.

So they say, you know, they've
got the bar in the middle,

they've got a cocktail and a
glass and a bottle in the

middle.
But in the end, they are two

different worlds for me.
So how how do you see that?

Because you know, you are a
quite established person working

with brands and with bartenders.
So you do this daily.

What's your take?
Well.

I think one of the jokes I make
right is you have to think about

who is the translator between
the bar world and the parents

industry world or the brand
world, right, whatever.

And it's usually the brand
ambassador.

And that role is usually given
nowadays mainly to people from

the bar industry that really
want to move away from some of

the difficulties of working
nights and operation.

And they move into the corporate
world and they become the middle

person, right?
The the, the translator or

whatever the connecting bridge.
And the joke that I made was

that Brian Ambassador are the
bar bags of the spirits world.

And I had so many, how many
Brandon Busters retardo?

Oh my God, I never thought about
this.

So fucking true.
Because bar bags run your shit.

Bar bags keep your shit together
if you're a decently sized

operation, but they're usually
the most made fun out of

ignored.
And it's exactly the same for

BAS in the in the corporate
world, they pretty much keep

everyone's shit running, but
they're usually overlooked.

Now, where to to get back
further into the specifics of

the question, the the issue
comes from the fact that the

world has evolved, right?
Back in the day, you know how

many spirits drinks companies
were there, right?

How many brands were there?
Nothing.

Like you had nothing available
prior to Prohibition.

You probably had a bit more, a
lot of local stuff.

But then Prohibition came and
you bought whatever it is the

gangsters could get into the
country.

If you wanted to drink, you
drank whatever the fuck wasn't

available.
And a lot of these brands that

are household name, we're trying
anyway to get in the US and

whatever.
And Stateless did.

And then we had World War One
and Two where it changed

completely the drinking habits
of Europe.

And after that, again, who's
still in business, who hasn't

been bombed to shit?
We're still around or anybody

still producing anything.
And so that's where you see that

the brides that kind of survived
that were all these big brands

that were already established.
You know, they were already like

part of wealth, like the grill,
like families or whatever.

They were not destroyed for
their status.

Like a lot of the cognac
champagne houses.

France, they're respected by
Germans.

They didn't destroy the
infrastructure.

Italy.
There was no real war in Italy

that destroyed too much Italy,
right?

Italy capitulated quite easily.
So a lot of their big players

stayed.
The infrastructure is OK,

Eastern Europe, Spock very
goodies, except like Bavaria is

OK, right?
And the the UK pretty much came

unscathed.
Now look at what all of the huge

brands, they're all based in
those countries that weren't

locked up.
And so what's happening there is

you have a bunch of people whose
entire job was like, cool, we

produce stuff and there's a
market for it.

That's it.
We will just keep selling.

The population of humanities
expanding rapidly like this.

There's a lot of generational
cultural drinking.

Like a lot of people don't
realize this now.

Like we make fun out of it.
Oh, my grandmother, my granddad

was drinking this.
I don't want to drink that.

However, there was a lot of
generational drinking.

If your dad likes this beer and
that's the beer he gave you when

you first had a beer or this one
or this beer, absolutely rice.

And that became embedded because
when you grow up, you didn't

have all this choice.
And as a result, you ended up

drinking what everybody else was
drinking.

And so now thanks to the
Internet, thanks to logistics,

thanks to world connectivity,
Amazon, you know, now you have

18 year old kids on TikTok
starting AT shirt brand and

making sometimes hundreds of
thousands of euros in months

thanks to a viral video.
So now suddenly, why are we

seeing such an explosion of
brands be funded the possibility

to possibly get in the market,
right?

That's why we're seeing so many,
so many startup brands of memory

thing across all categories.
As a result, when you don't have

money and when you don't have
that big connection with the

consumer, you have to turn to
any way to market to them.

And then they, that's how the
bar industry became relevant,

right?
So that's why the whole thing

changed.
And that's why the spirits

industry, which never really
gave a about bartenders.

And there's a reason why if you
look at a historically, all of

the, you know, Tavatori,
Calabrese, Durani, all these old

IBA Fox, none of them have
stories where they were going on

brand strips in the 80s or 90s.
You know, none of them are

saying that they don't.
They have stories about serving

famous people in London in a
hotel.

That's very strong, a good
point.

They don't have any stories of
anything to like this Calabrese

was not existed in it's in Italy
until like 2010.

Like Italian.
Well, Italian bark community

didn't give a shit about him.
London cared about him because

he was part of the London bark
community and then slowly his

name grew in Italy.
But and then he, you know, he

has the maestro and whatever,
but if you speak to the older

members of the bar community in
Italy at the beginning of his

rise in London, the Italian Bart
in the community was like, who

the fuck is this guy?
Because they were never

connected.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And this is like this big thing
with many, with many people now

like many nationalities that are
like made it abroad and they are

not relieved.
Everybody came to London.

London was where you, if you
wanted to, you know, 2000, 2010,

the dark ages, you had to go to
London and you became a legend

of London or New York in the US
like simulating absolutely.

Those are the two twin towers of
the old world.

And so then you, you were nobody
in your.

And then thanks to the again,
like social media, this is all

the last 15 years and this is
all happening very, very, very

fast.
You're seeing that the industry

is becoming committed with it.
Now, where do brands come in?

There's a famous saying, and it
is kind of like it's usually the

metaphor is the man is a head
and the woman is the neck.

Where the neck turned, the head
followed.

And the same thing can be said
for the industry, where if the

brands are the head, the
mainstream consumers are the

neck.
Where the neck turns, they

follow.
The rise of cooking shows the,

the, the, the rise of cocktails,
the rights of bars, the, the,

the mainstream is interested in
cocktails and console bars.

Actually what it's really, it's
not interested in cocktails,

it's interested in fine
drinking, better quality

drinking, elevated styles of
drinking.

They don't want to just get shit
faced the way they used to as a

kid.
They want to have a nicer

experience.
And so where the neck turns, the

brands will follow.
So that's why cocktail bars

became such a big investment,
and that's why these two worlds

clashed.
But we don't speak the same

fucking language.
Nobody in the brand world, most

people haven't worked service.
And that and a factor in that

the Bach community, whether you
like it or not, are some of the

most procrastinating,
disorganized, can't send an

e-mail, can't fucking spell
check.

Even though now there's all
these apps ChatGPT will write

you anything you fucking like.
They still don't know how to use

it because of pure sheer
laziness and pure sheer

thumberedness.
I kind of like they all got into

the bar at this piece so they
didn't have to work on Office

and now they have to learn
Excel, PowerPoint and ChatGPT

and and then get up on time and
send a fucking e-mail.

It's just like, you know?
Open an excel sheet which is

like a.
Formula, it's like oil and

water, right?
If you want to be successful in

one, if you need a completely
set of skills, and then the

other, ironically, if you want
to be successful in the bar

world, you have to learn all of
these skills that the corporate

world required.
I see it's, I see it as two

rivers rights, parallel rivers
that's occasionally crossed

over, but they very much slow
independently and a lot of those

issues or well between both
worlds is simply because they

function differently as well.
The way I look at it is if you

are a career bar industry
person, so you are in this for a

long time, think about it,
somebody bartending for five

years, you, you, you go, oh,
this person has been doing it

for a while.
You know, like that's already a

respectful number of time to be
in the bar industry.

If you've been in corporate in
five years, you might have gone

from runner intern to junior
brand manager.

If you're, if you're lucky,
that's it.

You're not senior, nowhere near
brand director or whatever, like

panning before you start doing
that or getting to that stage

regional or global.
And then the other thing you

have to look at is so if
somebody who's working corporate

who does 9 supply, then
whatever, they don't understand

the sacrifice you have to make
with time, with energy.

Their trends that they think are
cool are 10 years old.

So the shit that like we are in
the front lines in operation,

talking to guests in real time,
they have a lag.

Also like if you look at it,
look at the on trade vacancy

marketing.
Why are brands increasingly

teaming up with bar owners and
bartenders is because they want

to know shit quicker.
They don't want the live because

when they try to market to
bartender with ideas that are

510 eight years old, it doesn't
work when they put the millions

into them every cool idea.
Have you noticed that every

single massive corporation
recently got an app or some shit

or they built a new platform?
So Perno got sipped whatever

free pour was Bacardi's app,
that was the blend world from

Beam, Centauri.
So they all decided to create a

platform, a social media
platform with video content and

tutorials.
And it's always an the most of

them were apps.
And this is coming in 2024.

Nobody wants to download of
sucking app in 2024.

People were downloading app in
2017.

Absolutely right.
So if nowadays if I need to

download a new app that isn't a
fucking video game on my phone,

I don't want to do it.
I literally I I'm like, do I

need another?
I have too many apps.

I don't like how many apps I
have.

I'm not going to be checking
apps for new content YouTube,

Instagram, sure not down.
It better be going to change my

fucking life like Uber, whatever
it otherwise it has to be

functional.
Otherwise if it's for content

videos, not I don't care.
I mean and they're seven years

late.
Why?

Because by the time somebody
high enough in the fucking

company, because you're talking
about bottom up, somebody hired

from the company went through
one year of having a fucking

survey with a test group of
people who confirmed that an app

would be great.
And then got the budget and

allocated the budget, put
together the team or hired an

agency, created a brief, went
through like seven years later,

they've all released apps.
And then everyone I know who was

the BA who started working for
these things, I spelled them

like, guys, have a Plan B, have
it out.

You're going to lose your job in
a year because no one's going to

give a fuck.
And then they're going to shut

down the project because that's
how Browns work.

Something doesn't work, they're
not going to keep pumping money

into it.
And then you're all going to be

out of the job.
Nobody listens.

They're all out of a job now.
I warned them why?

Because of there's a line.
No, I'm, I'm, I'm smiling

because we actually never had
such conversation, but now it

pretty much aligned with my with
my way of thinking.

They're just late.
Every, every company that's

going to do well now has got to
be more agile, right?

And to have agility, you need to
have the ability to, or at least

the courage to make mistakes.
You need to have the courage to

have a more, a more smoothed out
bureaucracy so you don't have to

go up to 5 million different
choices.

That's why things like, I don't
know, smaller brands tend to do

better because they have a
smaller bureaucracy, a more

smoothed out system, and then
they're all going to do well.

And then big brands buy them for
all the reasons that they're

successful and just kill them.
Usually the transition from

being a smaller brand into a
bigger brand into a huge brand

that's non existent.
Almost very few brands exist

that survived that process.
All of it comes from the

inability to react, the
inability to be present, to have

knowledge on the ground in the
market.

And this is where when
bartenders, corporate people

talk about things, they even
though they say the words in the

same language, they can't
understand each other because

the bartender says, I want, I
don't know, I guess shift to

seminar or this.
And then a brand manager hears

give me money, give me money,
money, money.

And they're like, OK, well, I
once why won't you use through

ball whiskey on your menu?
And the barking owner goes,

well, screwball whiskey is a
peanut butter whiskey that's

super sweet.
I'm a high end console bar with

a very specific concept.
I can't use screwball whiskey.

It doesn't make any sense for
me.

There's no way to incorporate
it.

It's like telling some Michelin
star chef Nola to use nor stock

pods.
You know what I mean?

Like, hey, they look at the
seasonality, but we use lure for

our full skin while you go.
It completely doesn't work.

And so this is where, don't
worry, there's a lot of layers

to this issue.
But this is where they just they

don't understand at the same
time whether they like it or

not.
Nor stock pods paying the bills.

This is the Catch 22 now of of
the brand and bar world because

big companies, big brands try to
get the sign off of the top

bartenders in the world and the
top bars in the world to gain

the trends.
And then to also use them as a

top of the pyramid to so that
then the champagne pyramids

leaks down to all the the
glasses on the bottom get the

champagne.
But The thing is that is that

ultimately there is there is a
bit of a disconnect.

And what I feel nowadays is that
this connection is becoming

wider and wider in that sense.
Because you know, you've got

normal bars doing normal drinks
and then you've got like the

top, like the 50 best bars doing
all this souvid and all this

kind of like crazy things that
it's totally disconnected

because you cannot really scale
that.

So in that moment, the brands to
your example of Noma swallowed

in and disappears within that
cocktail recipe that doesn't

even get a brand mention or do
you don't even know which brand

was used in that famous recipe.
And then all of a sudden all

that be lower effect to the
lower tiers of outlets is gone.

Because you know, if I go to the
best bar in London, then I will

never get in touch with that
brand that that's what the brand

wants.
Even if I see the name of the

menu, because most probably I
won't even even see the name of

the menu.
And then the average bar in

London, when I go out to my
local in whatever Hammersmith, I

will never think like, OK, I
tried that whiskey brand and I

tried that rum in the Connell.
And now I want to replicate that

experience in my home bar or in
my local pub is disconnecting

more and more.
While the ambition of brands and

bars is actually like, let's get
to the table and work together.

Like one of the things that I
discussed a lot is that it that

I see the drinks industry as an
ecosystem, you know, so there's

bartenders, bar owners,
wholesalers, importers and brand

owners, distillers.
And there is this tendency,

unfortunately, like of blaming
each other.

You know, the importer doesn't
get the numbers.

It's either the brand, the
global brand team that is shit,

or the wholesalers that is lazy
and doesn't have enough

salespeople.
Instead of actually sitting down

at the table and say, what do we
need to make this thing?

And then of course, if you want
to, you as a bartender wants to

develop yourself.
How can I enable that in a way

that actually makes sense for me
as a brand without having that

paradox of the nor, you know,
stock, like without having the,

oh, here is a bottle and now I'm
going to do a sous video in it

and you're never going to see
this bottle anymore.

Well, there's layers to this,
right?

So let's break down what your
response and hammer into some

stuff.
Yeah, the the Cat 22 is if

brands realize that the amount
of money they're pouring into

the tub tier of the pyramid is
insanely ROI negative, then to

be honest, all the things we
enjoy will disappear.

Bar shows, brand trips.
It it won't make sense, it will

be they will disappear.
So bartending will again become

a shit job.
Now at least there is the allure

of oh, I'm going to go on to a
free holiday to XYZ country

thanks to a brand.
Oh, and I could possibly earn a

few day Rakes.
It's to a brand because brands

pay the stuff.
It's there are people that like

to make a lot of parallels with
the chef thing industry, which

is stupid because if you think
about it, chefs are not

sponsored by farmers.
Chefs don't go the best chicken

in the world.
You know, like you're right.

Today I'm going to cook this
dish and then it's going to

feature the starter, the main
course of the dirt going to pick

their beats.
Beats with everything.

They are usually sponsored
either by equipment companies or

they're sponsored by TV or just
to be sponsored by cars.

Now why?
Because chefs are cool.

They're on television, they sell
books.

They've become a mainstream
thing.

Bar industry is the cult it the
subculture.

The Who is the most famous
bartender in the world according

to like social media or like the
numbers?

Probably Simonica, Prada, right?
Simona has been on TV so much or

whatever, Hirani adverts and
blah blah blah.

If Simone would to be hit by a
bus tomorrow and died, nobody

would give a fuck in the
mainstream.

If Gordon Ramsay died, it would
be a disaster.

Everybody would talk about how
much they loved him.

It would be on TV.
Whatever we saw with Anthony

Bourdain, for example.
Anthony Anthony Bourdain, you

know, like his equivalent would
be to like men there or P and

Dale de Groff or whatever.
It just wouldn't have the same

impact because the mainstream
doesn't give a shit.

And as a result of this, we do,
we tend compare the two and

they're very different and they
do they move in their own way.

So what brands were trying to do
with 50 bass and it's still

they're still trying to do it.
They're trying to brain brings

people into the mainstream.
They're trying to made people

who make cocktails because that
is the equivalence of fine

dining into the mainstream,
right?

It's slowly, they're trying to
figure it out.

Even fucking chefs now like the
bear, the the new American TV

show, The Bear, it's about fine
dining.

We're going crazy.
There's only one step on the

cast, a guy called Matthew
Matheson, Big fat guy.

And now he's doing cocktail
Rapunzel to try and get brand

money, you know, to try and make
cocktails cool.

We've gotten The Tonight Show.
It's featured Jeffrey

Morgenthauer and Yikka DeSoto,
right?

They come in to do a cocktail.
What they don't realize is that

bartending is not good TV,
right?

It's not.
Remember that?

Same as the clip where Gordon
Ramsay gets a fist and he

fillets a salmon blindfolded,
right?

It's the one of the the clip
from Do you speak to any good

chef that worked the fish
station?

No more good chefs can do that.
Gordon Ramsay is not like some

secret ninja shinobi.
Anyone who deals with salmon, an

easy fix to fillet, can do that
blindfolded.

It's not difficult to if you've
been a chef, but the normal

person can't do that.
The skill gap is too great for a

normal whole cook to filet a
face blindfolded right?

Absolutely.
I'm sorry, I don't care how much

you think you're a fucking
artiste.

Most people can make a daiquiri.
Honestly, they can make a they

can.
Most drinks that we make behind

the bar, yes they'll look
awkward thinking they'll fuck

shit up and spell, but they
could probably make with five

minutes training, a decent drain
and poured properly.

You will teach a person how to
hold a shaker properly, how to

pour properly.
In 5 minutes they'll make a

dappery as good as you will
behind the bar, probably even

better because there's more
anxious and scared to not fuck

it up, so they'll shake you for
the proper 6-7 second instead of

you and your bullshit 3 second
shake that you think that it's

ice cold.
Most people don't even know from

don't even know how to do
fucking dilution nowadays.

That's not good in TV.
It's also because it's a

sensitive matter.
No, I mean it's alcohol.

Like you cannot show it at
certain times.

It also has a stigma that's, you
know, like the chefs don't have

no in that.
Well, don't I think we're chefs

and bartenders and our mutual
love for fucking and Coco, we

have a lot of craft over.
And you know, Anthony Bourdain

didn't hide that in his book,
right?

That's one of the reasons people
thought he was a rock star

because of all the fucking shit
that he used to speak.

It's hilarious how 20 fucking
four years ago, rich chef from

New York makes a book where he
talks about the bullshit that

happens in the industry and
becomes an immediate chef Visa,

right?
And that all chefs look up to.

And then in the in the bar
world, when I mentioned drugs

and and that we should talk
about it, everyone goes, well,

you can't do no, no, no, no, no,
no, no, no.

We got are you being high?
Like, are you serious?

Celebrities in Hollywood, the
most entitled pricks in the

world, can talk about our
problems more than we can.

And we're in the shit in our
community.

The the hypocrisy is is so, so
silly and to to really

experience a good bar.
It's it's low form content, it's

cinema.
It's not TikTok Chef is is

TikTok able and here's why
here's why because the chef is

behind the get in the kitchen.
I'm being fucking 50 people,

let's just say Michelin 50
people moving around doing all

their things to play this tiny
fucking dish which has the the

fucking dish is the size of
this.

The fuck food is the size of
this.

Then they sous video fucked it
and they lacto fermentis and she

and it there and it's beautiful
and it comes over and that's it.

The chef have no fucking
interaction with the guests, but

then the waiter or the server
comes and they bring it down and

they tell this beautiful story.
Fantastic, well done, nailed it.

The mainstream only seen the
final presentation.

The package is cheer boom.
The bartender is in front of the

guest.
Usually the bartender is right

there.
The I mean it's happening in

real time and you know this is
where pre batching fucks up

because pre batching it does
make the place run faster, but

it completely takes away all of
the theater and being a

bartender, all of the ways that
we justified we had a skill

throwing beautifully shaking
drinks with in a cool way,

pouring and not spilling
anywhere, multiple bottles,

being like a monkey and an
octopus.

We've destroyed all of that with
pre batching.

So now it's just a fucking milk
punch out of a bottle and then

go cool, give me fucking 18 lbs.
I should be as important to the

chef.
Fuck off.

You're a robot.
You complain that robots can

replace bartender You you turned
into a robot.

All you do is take a fucking pre
batch out.

I'm afraid I'm poured into a fat
block of ice which you pre

placed into a glass with a stem
and then it's minimalism so it

has no other garnish.
Yeah, all right.

You've we've literally become
the thing that we did that we.

Hate actually had a question on
this one because like, has it

gone too far in in in your
opinion?

And I understand like top
bartenders, like really people

with a lot of experience and I
go to bars all the time, you

know, but like I have I have the
feeling sometimes that there is

a bit of a Barber paradox.
Like all of a sudden ending has

begun.
Cool.

You're gonna have like zillions
tattoos and cool haircuts.

And then all of a sudden you're
a bartender.

And instead of having like the
old days, trainings, pouring,

throwing and all this kind of
stuff, you know, like flair was

also like part of that that has
been shut down to basically you

go from making a Negroni to
actually doing sous video and

lacto fermenting.
There is no getting the hands

dirty probably of the very new
generations in my opinion, you

just run into that because
that's what's cool.

That's what trending at the
moment.

So it's a little bit like the
barbershop.

Is that because like we went
from, I mean, here in Prague

that I couldn't get a butt, you
know, a cats in a proper.

And now all of a sudden I, I go
out of my flat here and I bump

into 15 Barber shops and when I
try different ones because of

convenience, like sometimes like
there were cats in my hair and I

said, how long have you been a
bartender?

Two months.
It's like, what the fuck?

I didn't get stabbed by this
guy.

The problem that we haven't been
there, we have generational

differences.
Now that the bar, the bar

industry is kind of exploded, we
have a generational gaps and

ways of thinking.
From 2000 to 2000, maybe

10/11/12, every single seminar
of the same fucking 20 people

going to it.
Every single brands thing with

the same small group, right?
If you remember those days, we

were like the nerds.
We were like the passion nerd

that those nerds then became
running programs, winning

awards, running competitions.
Everyone I remembered I used to

go to meet at like usually it
was the early world class from

2008 to 2000 and 12/13.
I can pull up those Facebook

photos and go cool bar owner,
brand ambassador, bar owner.

Like they've all succeeded right
there.

There's all fueled up excellent
love for this industry.

The problem is, is that time and
life is not nice to everyone and

it's not nice equally.
Somebody who's a good bartender

and just love the game and love
the industry won't necessarily

become a successful business
donor.

Somebody who loves this is
creative and passionate won't

necessarily be good a long term
brand ambassador, right?

So what we're seeing is we're
seeing a huge influx of people,

but we're have a lot of limited
mentorship and time in, in the

industry's 'cause it it long
hour, it always going to be long

hours.
I don't see it ever becoming

less and easier.
You know, the contract says 40,

but anyone who wants to be
successful industry puts in

5055.
It's just the way it works.

And So what we're having is a
situation where pre COVID it was

like already too much.
It was exploding.

That was fucking too many things
going on.

And then COVID wipes out like
the dinosaurs, like a meteor

extinction event wipes out a lot
of the middle management, right?

So what do I mean by that is
that those of us who don't, who

are now lifers, hospitality
lifers, I'm one of them, We have

no chance to pivot.
We are like, we don't know

anything else except this
industry.

There's no way we can now go and
do something else.

It's true.
Our career, the set we're built,

we have to eat shit if this
industry goes to shit.

But there was a lot of people
between 25 and 30 who are

getting into junior management
role than junior position that

we're like, cool, I love this
industry, but I'm doing well.

Here's my first bar management
gig.

You know, they've been around
for a while, five, 6-7 years of

experience who are like, you
know what, I'm still young, this

sucks.
I have no support.

My Odo's a Dick, you know?
Does that make sense?

They all left, the fuck ended.
But what are we having now?

Where are they?
Because the industry will always

accept new people.
So what's happening now in

2023-2024?
We have the 80 condom pyramids

rights.
There's a lot less people here.

There's a lot of people here.
So now we're having these

cocktail bartenders learning to
sous video or Rotavat who've

been barking for a year.
Somebody's skipping the steps

because we need the people now.
I don't see this thing.

It's saying that necessarily is
a bad thing.

I just see that we're going
through kind of the medieval

period, to be honest.
When you get comfortable in a

management position or when
you're higher up in the

hierarchy, things become very
monopolized, monogamous and

stale as because all, all the
cheats are taken for you to move

up.
Somebody has to fucking go right

Or, and everyone's just sitting
there and no one's trying to

lose their job.
They're just like safe, right?

It's like the Roman Senate, you
know, everyone's safe.

Nobody wants to lose their job.
No one wants to fuck it up.

Everyone wants to just do their
shit together.

They want to maintain the status
quo.

And COVID came and just fucking
fuck this.

And so now you have a lot of
these young people.

And why are we having a lot of
the same trend?

Because those people have come
in.

They don't know what's happening
yet.

They're like, OK, cool.
You you're a leader, right?

You're one of the higher ups.
What are you doing?

OK, I'm going to do what you're
doing.

Can you You're you're here.
You've survived.

Yeah.
I think what's going to happen

in the next two years, one of
the trends I predict within our

subculture, within the Barber,
you see that a lot of these

young kids that are now leading
programs around the world are

going to rebel.
They're going to graduate from

being a child to being an
annoying teenager.

They're going to get bored of
minimalism, going to get bored

of the same fucking drinks and
the same fucking glassware, you

know?
And they're going to go, you

know what, this sucks.
And we're going to see a

returning towards like the night
jar era of a little bit more,

you know, not, not the and I
don't think it's going to happen

like this.
We're just going to see pocket

plummet, right?
And that's going to start to

happen because time circular
retro, you know, the everything

goes in a circle.
Absolutely.

We go too far this way.
We counter correct.

But I'm excited to see what's
going to happen with these

younger kids because what the
place we knew a lot of young

people in charge of a ship, A
lot of fuck ups, a lot of

mistakes.
A lot of bars that are really

putting in and losing money and
going down in a year because the

bar manager or head bartender or
drinks program person is

completely not ready to be in
that position.

But those that survive will have
more interesting things to bring

to the table.
I always remind myself not to be

that grumpy old fuck because I'm
seeing a lot of my peers getting

into this thing where they're
like a war veteran in my day,

when we got that, OK, that time
is gone.

This is the new time.
But the way we're seeing it also

now, like for example, content
creator on TikTok, on Instagram,

on YouTube, What if I was to
pretend that I was a grumpy con?

I could turn around and say that
when Cocktails For You was still

a fool, and this is even before
my assignment and I joined with

Eddie and we did Cocktails For
You.

A lot of these content creators
were just coming up or just

starting or not even a thing.
We were already getting millions

of views, but they were just
realizing they could do stuff

right.
So we paved the way from that.

Do you think any of them give a
fuck about Cocktails For You?

Do you think any of them will
ever acknowledge that?

Do you think any of them even
know that they would know that

that that this this existed with
them?

No, they don't.
They don't care because they're

they're now the new generation
at the same time who paved the

way for cocktails for you.
Tipsy bartender, total piece of

shit.
Like absolutely garbage.

But he was the first guy to blow
up when drinks content, cocktail

content of some sort.
Yeah, cool.

He paved the way for us.
We paved the way for others, and

that's how the the thing works.
Where the bar industry is

different than other industries
is that we're more shamanistic,

right?
There's no university of

bargaining.
It's based on oral traditions.

Every bar manager is a set rule
of two.

Here's the fucking disciple.
Gives them the ways of the dark

side and that's it.
It's oral traditions.

You pick up whatever the fuck
your meant for or your bar

manager or your teacher told you
the good and the bad and

hopefully you improve.
So where I'm going with the

content creators and this shit
is that it's very hard to build

a legacy and to mean old thing
to A to a large portion of

people, right?
If you look at some, you know,

every single famous bartender
that you know, right, They're

real mentor, They're real people
they look up to, not the ones

that they're posting online
because they want to get into

100 or get some votes for 50
best.

The real people that taught
them, they usually say these

things in podcasts or seminars.
They'll say, Oh yeah, my first

teacher was in this Cafe that no
one gives a shit where I was

learning to make a cappuccino,
you know, or my first beer bar.

And this guy was a Dick and he
was always kicking my ass.

But then he taught me how to
sweep properly.

You know, like.
They're the real teachers, those

sung heroes, but they're that's
the real shit.

This is all just show business.
That's the real skill stuff.

And so the best thing but now is
with the content creators and

stuff, we're getting into
another new era and I'm going to

be joining them soon.
We've got a couple of projects

coming up.
I'm going to get into YouTube

and stuff and open up the gate
because now all these content

creators, one of the main things
they're doing is sharing recipes

and techniques.
That's the biggest driver right

in all of these.
Your molecular style bars are

complaining about it all.
They're just doing this.

Who the thing do they think they
are?

Well, because you don't share
any of your shit.

We have to learn from somewhere.
Was the last good bartending

book.
What was the last curious

bartender or the last Liquid
Intelligence?

Those books came out in 2015.
Sixteen.

That's at least 10 years.
But that's why the content

creator the goal traction.
So what you're saying is that

they they speak the truth and
they give ammunition to the

regular people that create
sharing?

So they share, they're sharing.
Kevin Cost is an amazing

example.
Kevin Cost from YouTube.

I don't know.
If you know, yeah, yeah, yeah,

yeah.
I met.

I met him.
I worked with you at the Nobody

that Understands.
Super nice guy, super nice guy.

But I now know, like my wife is
from Kazakhstan.

I've gone to Kazakhstan for the
last seven years, probably about

1011 * 12 times.
I spent a month there training

bartenders all over the country.
I speak Russian, they speak

Russian.
I have shown techniques that he

shows online.
I have shared techniques that he

shows online.
And they don't remember that,

that I've already been there,
done that.

But they'd see his video and
they copy the technique and they

try and make the thing.
So it doesn't matter if you've

been there or you were first or
you've done it.

This is what sticks.
This is what is making an

impact.
And I know a lot of people who

look down on in credit, people
drinks, the grammars, they like

to call them because they don't
work behind the bar.

But do you wonder why there's
such a big audience to watch

their stuff?
Because they don't.

People don't have answers to the
things that are easy for you

because you're an expert how to
make a lecture, a make a syrup,

a make a cordial and they share
it and they share it through

video form.
So and easy to follow.

And then you can remake it.
It's accessible.

This is the next big thing
that's going to change the game

you're seeing now even some very
smart bartenders pivoting

towards social media, still
making fun out of it for years.

They're realizing, oh, I can get
brand deals, I can make some

money.
Oh, I this actually influences

the new generation.
Oh, I know I'm going to stay

relevant.
So I'm going to do I'm going to

I'm going to make videos now see
what I'm saying?

Surely listen.
Listen.

No, but it's it's a great point.
I mean, like if you look at

coming from the corporate side
of things myself, they all sing

with POS material.
No, with point to say logos and

stuff in the bar with with
stuff.

No, nowadays cool bars don't
want any of that stuff.

Stuff they may want like some
cool whatever neon light or some

cool stuff that is thin the the
look and feel of the bar, but

they don't want to have the
glorifier of any brand and stuff

like that.
Now.

So if you see that like then if
I'm coming to your bar and then

you don't allow me to put any
POS material, but you allow me

to have a post done by you
making a cocktail with my

bottle, then all of a sudden I
don't care anymore.

That's the 1000 people entering
the bar will not see my bottle

on the glorifier because the
1000 people online will see you

making that cocktail with my
bottle.

I see from the brand world that
takes time because this is

something that I'm telling my
customers as brand owners, but

they don't get it yet.
It's like, no, but you still

need to put that thing on the
back bar because otherwise that

doesn't count as our bar.
Which leads me to the to the

next question.
That is basically like there is

this tendency for brands to
think about my bar, my consumer.

This is a bartender that works
with us.

This kind of like trying to make
this exclusive relationships

that are BS because you cannot
make say Daniel to work only

with one brand ever.
You will always make cocktails

with this whiskey.
You will always make cocktail

with this gin.
You know, it cannot be because

your credibility is the fact
that you keep challenging

yourself.
And maybe two years ago you

liked a certain gin and now you
make Negroni with another gin

that it's either new or you
didn't know it.

It's an old school thing that
you didn't know and so on.

And so there is this revolution.
Like I like this trend spot

thing thing like from what we
see in the bar now rather than

in PDF reports about like what
could happen next.

No, because like there must be
more and more brands

acknowledging the fact that
people work with different

brands.
Like when I do like on behalf of

some brands, an advocacy program
or like we do, I don't know, a

competition or a master class or
whatever.

You know, you see those
bartenders doing stories with me

and with that brand today, but
in three days they're going to

be with another brand, which is
a competitive brand.

And it's not about all.
But Daniel, come on, like you

did, you did this on Monday and
now on Thursday, I can you post

about this RAM because I
understand it.

And it's like, obviously you do
that because like you want to

learn new things, you want to
learn about new categories, you

want to learn about new brands.
But from a brand owner

perspective, there is still
like, oh, I don't want to work

with Daniel.
I mean, I pick you as an example

like randomly enough because
you're working with them.

So I don't want to work with you
anymore.

It's like, man, you cannot think
that way.

And I think that the sooner
brands understand that there is,

this is a polygamous world
consumer pick brands on the

shelf.
They've got a wide range of

drinks and calories that they
pick from.

And you know, they may love 1
brand over another one night and

then the next night they they
like another 1.

So it's about increasing the
penetration of your brand among

more people rather than that bar
is our bar, let's go to that bar

because it it works with us.
There's two things on that in

terms of hearing thoughts.
The 1st is that everything has

to be about the brand and bar
relationship has to be a

balance.
There is such a thing as being

too much of A whore.
Absolutely, Absolutely.

So what what brands, what brands
are trying to do now is to play

Pokémon.
They're trying to capture them

all.
And then, and this bar is our

bar.
That bartender is our bartender.

Whatever, right?
The problem is not when trying

to quake Pokémon.
The problem is with what you're

doing.
What is the purpose?

Right.
Well, you're someone like me who

survives mainly on.
Well, yeah, Brand work is my

work.
Most of my money comes from

brand.
The merch is selling, but not

enough.
I'm in a position lucky enough

thanks to credibility and blah
blah blah it can choose to work

with brands that I actually
drink, enjoy and I like the

people that work with them.
I'm privileged and lucky enough

to have that and be in that
position.

You you gain that.
You gain that.

It's not just luck.
Yeah, but when you imagine it's

you're coming up and you're
getting a gig from a brand,

beggars can be choosers, of
course, you know, like, so you

got and do what you got to do.
But that's the difficult thing.

How do I get enough brown work
to sustain my life to get to a

point where I can work with what
I want to work with?

You know what I mean?
That's the hard path.

I don't see any particular issue
with brands teaming up with

different bars of bartenders and
putting them in their Pokedex.

The problem is, the reason why
they're doing it is not because

they give a fuck about the bar
or give a fuck about that

bartender.
They're doing it because they're

saying that there's a draw.
That person might be completely

not aligned with the values of
the brand.

Fucking David Beckham has a
whiskey he doesn't drink.

That's where it's destined to
fail, right?

Where that relationship also
fails is that bars nowadays,

there's bars that open and names
this, even though they're not

profitable businesses thanks to
brand money.

There's bars that exist thanks
to huge brand contracts and

their own lists, but they're not
busy and they're not maybe

turning a profit from that.
So they need the brand money to

survive.
So they'll turn over and they'll

double penetrate their own
rectum with as many fucking

bottles as they can because they
need that to survive, right?

They need to fuel this horrible
machine and I think that is also

wrong.
You know, if you like me four or

five gyms that I genuinely like
that I can that I'll recommend

to people for different things,
for different situations.

But I have four or five, I think
dinner that I really enjoy.

If I was to open a bar, I would
seek a relationship with those

four or five different gyms.
Obviously, I know that nowadays

if you have a business is good
to have a listing fee and good

to have somebody to pay for it
and whatever.

I'll probably see the more
mainstream on to to, to find

something on the menu.
But I would have those 4-5

gender my back bar because I
enjoy them.

And here's where the bartending
world is interesting and where I

refer to bars as little
kingdoms, blue small Kingdom

where they have a little king
because of the situation that's

happening, like I mentioned
earlier, COVID and whatever, all

our kings are tired.
All our kings are old.

They don't want to fight
anymore.

They want to retire.
They just want to have

stability.
They're not trying to break the

molds.
They're just like this.

I've had a stressful couple of
fucking years.

Just come and pour the milk
pouch out of the fucking thing

into the glass.
Get them their drinks.

Just shut up.
Don't don't experiment.

Just in that glass.
Off you go.

Oh, yeah.
Cool money.

Yeah.
Today, every five days of the

league, there's an event with a
different Gen.

White.
Just give me the money.

The stressful fucking couple of
years.

I don't want any bullshit right
now, you know, like that's how

it is.
But I much respect those bars

that have like, oh, we stock
this, could we like this?

I love the flavor of this.
And usually those brands are the

ones that have no money.
They're they're you know what I

mean?
Yeah, yeah, certainly.

I see it all the time.
It is a polyamorous

relationship, but as long as you
can justify why and what's you

know, I believe that a lot of
these bartenders are bar owners

are not loyal at all.
Where the money comes from is

where they'll fly.
And that's how you separate what

I call like nowadays people like
to say, oh, what's a real bar

owner, a real bartender, real.
I believe that a real bartender

or real bar owner or real bar
manager is not somebody who's

outspoken.
Like for me, it for somebody who

can at least justify why they do
XYZ from a perspective of trying

to be better.
I'll explain what I mean.

We had an unwritten rule in the
bar industry, especially when

you work in cocktail bars, is
that we have a responsibility to

inform our guests how to drink
better with better quality and

open up their eyes to things,
right?

If somebody comes into our job
and says I like whiskey, Scotch,

it's our responsibility to guide
them and to help them and to not

just to say to them, Oh yeah,
we're Simon Doers.

Drink it.
You know, what kind of discuss

do you like?
You prefer something sweeter,

lighter, more heavy, smoky.
You know, we have this

responsibility.
People have forgotten that we

have this responsibility that we
have to help people drink more

quality in a better way.
For those bars that give a fuck,

they still hold on to this.
And that means your bad bar

can't be 90% fucking the Agile
or Bacardi or Campari or one

company because those portfolios
aren't equal.

The portfolios aren't balanced.
And also, what do you enjoy?

What's your shit like?
What are you exactly?

Are the Bartlett near bar?
Do they have a particular brand

that they like, genuinely like?
And is it represented on the bag

bar?
Because they will upsell that.

They will like upselling.
Let's can talk about upselling.

Nobody knows how to upsell
anymore.

We've forgotten the art of like
I'm selling.

Why?
Because they're not trying,

they're not tasting their
products anymore.

They're not using their brains.
They've turned into fucking

robots.
I don't even know if I'm

answering a question anymore.
I'm just fucking right.

No, no, no, but I like this is
this is one of those episodes

that is a bit of a wild one
without really like a proper set

of questions.
But I like, I like it this way

because this is like what I'm
expect by talking to you,

because this is basically like a
chat of you and I sitting at the

bar and and talking over a
couple of confidence.

But. 2:00 AM.
Dive bar at 11:30 AM.

I think that this is also like
it's, it's so interlinked now

because we go back to the
beginning now when we were

talking about how to go to the
lower level.

So to the like, I don't want to
call it the masses, but to make

bars a more kind of like
welcoming place now, because I

remember myself, you know, like
I came from beer and when I

started going more and more to
cocktail bars, it was kind of

like intimidating, even though
I've always been, you know,

hanging out in bars and meeting
people at bartenders as friends

and so on.
But then when I go to certain

type of cocktail bar, so let's
call it like the 50 bus to give

an idea of what I mean, like the
more polished, you know, with

the proper drink program and
poor and serving and so on, the

average Joe has no idea what to
order.

They sit at the table or at the
bar.

They have no idea what it is.
And they're kind of like scared.

So they're they're like under
the pedestal of the bartender

and say like, please do whatever
you want.

I have no idea what this magic
lemon means that I read on the

on the cocktail list.
And so basically like about what

we were talking like, how can we
bring it down to actually say,

OK, we need brands to build bars
because, you know, it gives some

nice fuel to the bar world.
But in return, brands don't want

to have only an Instagram post.
They want to have like a

spillover effect so that then
when they go and sell into Tesco

or supermarket chain or Waitrose
or Costco, like people will

remember that experience.
No, but there is this kind of

like disconnect nowadays that is
like, OK, like how do we make it

more?
I don't.

I don't know if to call it
approachable or more

understandable or it goes back
to your pretty.

Point accessibility.
So there's part of my seminar

that I do which is about theory
of creativity, and people often

think that if I'm going to be
talking about theory of

creativity, I'm going to be
talking about drink.

One of the sections of that
seminar is about culture and

language.
First and foremost.

I believe that every bartender
in the world will benefit from

working in the UK or Australia
for like even 2-3 years because

of the drinking culture of that
country.

You have to be chatty.
You have to vouch your guests.

In most pubs and most bars in
the UK, if you're not talking to

your guests, they will eat you
alive.

They will make fun out of you.
You'll cry.

You have to have wittiness.
You have to be sharp.

My number one, saying that I
noticed that bartenders have

become socially inept.
They, they, they don't know how

to communicate anymore.
They don't know how to talk to

other people because like you
said, they've been working a

year or two in the in the
industry.

They've developed no social
skills.

I'd always hire a beer person or
a club person over a couple

bartender because the bartender
now are boring, man, they're so

boring.
Hey, how you doing?

What you up to?
What's your thing?

It's a Sunday.
Did you watch the game?

What's happening in your city?
Do you have any thoughts in

there?
Is there any?

Do you do anything when your
bartender is about as exciting

as a lasted hand job?
Then you, you don't care about

the dreams.
You don't want to talk to them.

You know, like how many bars
have you come into?

And the bartenders are like
awkwardly staring and pouring

and they're still into the
glass.

Of course the guest is
intimidating because they're

resting bitch faces still
focused on this thing that they

can talk to the guests.
So the guest feels

uncomfortable, they open the
fucking menu.

They go all right, blah blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 5

drinks.
They don't know what they are.

I'll have an apple spreads
because it's too much, right.

So where I talk about language
and accessibility is that

there's a bar in London called
the Cocktail Trading Company.

It's an east.
It's not a bar that's famous

necessarily.
They do cocktail.

They have 5 bars in the UK now.
Murdering cocktail Trading

company, The Royal Cocktail
Exchange 2IN Bristol.

But what they do well, if you
look at their menus is that I

don't have obviously here to
explain.

Their menu follows in every new
version of their menu because

they're very creative with it.
They follow a specific

structure, have the name of the
drink underneath the name of the

drink.
They have a four maximum five

letter flavor descriptor.
That's cool.

Then they have the ingredients,
then they have a small like

explanation of the protest or or
a joke, and then they have a

photo illustration of the drink.
Now where the purpose of that is

is that you read the name.
If it's a catchy name, you have

the description.
I'm giving you one that I

remember from their menu by
heart.

There's a drink on the menu
called Nelson Blood.

And then underneath is written
low citrusy rummy as fuck.

If you are a normal human being
that is in the bar and you don't

know what to order and you have
a menu with 20 pages and the 1st

2 lines are Nelson's blood.
That looks cool.

Who the fuck is Nelson?
What's the blood?

Long citrusy ramius fuck do I
want a long grade that's quite

citrusy and has lots of ramen in
yes or no?

If the answer is yes, you move
on to the next line and you read

the ingredients and you read the
the.

But you can make your decision
super fast in a language that's

accessible to you now, right?
Yeah, You're Italian.

Right.
Yes, I am.

How many Italian cocktail bars
that you come into where the

there's something written on
top?

That's the name, and underneath
there is something written in

Italian that explains what the
drink is like.

Very few.
No, no single one.

I don't.
It's always name on ingredients.

And brands, I mean like it is
very brand driven as well.

It's it's name and ingredients
and brands.

I'll give you another example of
how I love to fuck with Italian

Copta Barb.
Where I do get shit, I like to

use the name and party to
connect with the Italian people

that I'm serving.
I did A twist on a cocktail a

couple of years ago.
It was called Costi Freddy,

right?
Because it's a famous porn star.

It was the Pinta Colada twist.
I did A twist.

It was called Porto Dio, it was
with court, you know, shit like

that.
Why?

Because the consumers, the
Italians, they it's a joke.

They get it.
It's something that can they can

connect with, with their
language and their culture.

Are you telling me a Russian
motherfucker who learned to

bartender in Scotland can better
connect with an Italian consumer

than an Italian?
There's something wrong.

So taking the principles of
jokes and puns and word play,

finding a way to speak to the
guests that has not yet that

thing happens in London and
London.

They're very witty, very
interest, and that has not yet

made its way into other
languages and other culture.

That going to be a whole new
revolution where people in

different countries will learn
to penetrate with their guests

if fest ability through the
language of that country,

through a sub, through a a pop
culture of that culture.

Right.
That's why consumers will come

into bars and be like yo Coco
sifredi, are you fucking

serious?
We not drink with a blended.

When was the last time you store
a guest bartender to do a

blended drink on a menu?
We sold out.

That was the only drink on that
night and ordered all night.

We sold out in like 45 minutes
but very blended rang and then

they finally started ordering
other comptail because it was

just so obviously hilarious and
and funny and accessible.

There, there is still a lot of
kind of like Anglo-Saxon

influence in the cocktail world
now because everything is

basically coming from an
Anglo-Saxon country.

Maybe you know US or if you take
New York or London or San

Francisco, whatever that is,
there is still this reverence

that you want to show that you
speak English and you want to

leave the Holy Grail of this
English speaking classic

cocktails and you don't want to
touch the the Holy Grail.

I'm just thinking out loud like
what could be the reason why

there is still this kind of
like?

It's at least a good example.
It's a good test market like why

is this?
Why do we?

Why are Italian bartender and
the Italian bar community so big

and wine is the drinking culture
and it's so they so advanced

cultural culture.
Why is it even in smaller cities

outside of Rome and Milan have
are opening up such amazing bars

and Roma bar show attract OK
15,000 bartenders a year right

and I can tell you why because
yes, the Anglo-Saxon culture and

ended cop bill without a without
a doubt the US created cocktail.

I don't give a shit where it was
first posted in what fucking

newspaper you go to the US huge
country Texas as a state is the

is the 80% of Europe surface
area.

You go to any fucking city in
the US, they know what cocktails

are they know the names of drink
cocktail.

They're they might be fucking
terrible, but they are available

now.
What happened after World War

Two?
If we know the history of

Italian drinking culture, a lot
of the cruise ship around the

the Italian coast, a lot of
Americas were on the cruise

ships.
A lot of the coastal bartenders

were hired on this cruise ship
to make cocktails for the

American outside.
Cocktails spread in Italy from

the coast into the cities.
This is a thing that has

happened.
Why does the determine American

bar this?
Because there was Americans who

drank cocktails.
That's why the American bar used

to be a Bar Lane five star Grand
Hotel all over Europe.

There's an American bar in
Amsterdam.

There's an American bar in In
London, there was an American

bar in.
Switzerland, Paris.

It was a terminology, and that's
where you got cocktails.

So that's where Americans went,
America to dry cocktail.

So yes, the origins are here.
Now we're having this explosion

where Italy is the head of
everyone because they were

exposed to that historically
earlier, the American law.

It's a direct clash of two
cultures.

We can talk about the Negroni
forever and the the way that

Campari has decided to make a
fig Jesus and everybody

surrounded Negroni and whatever.
But when there's it there, I

have articles that I know that
exist and prove that that's all

kind of questionable and best.
But no one's going to argue with

Campari at this point where the
drinking culture that came to

Italy, the influence of
cocktails, the martinis, The

Manhattans that you know, you
have these old bartender that

are Italian, old bartender.
Martini used to work with one.

Martini, the brand.
Yeah, yeah.

Work with one.
They were like Dario Camini's

level or a before he did all the
molecular stuff.

You know, these old school
people that used to work the

bars and restaurants, these old
dudes usually that were the

older generation that still
remembered where the cocktails

called from.
As a result, you have

generations of cocktail
drinkers.

Yes, they're not drinking maybe
whiskey sours or whatever, but

they're drinking martinis,
they're drinking Americanos,

they're drinking, you know, all
of these neoclassics, I would

say.
But that that's why it's at

least so ahead of everyone else
in Europe, right?

That's why it's easy for the
culture to spread because the

normal consumers in it city have
grown up with mixed drink.

Maybe it's not a huge portfolio
on mixed drinks grown up with

mixed drinks.
So the consumers in it city are

more open to trying the new
cocktails because it's kind of

part of the culture to mix
different things.

No other culture or Europe
besides the UK has a cultural

connection with mixing different
spirit as much as it's a so this

is where I think it's coming
from.

A lot of these things are all
logical in the history based and

shit like that.
But This is why I think the

cocktail industry is a bubble.
I think that unless we become a

part of culture.
Absolutely.

We will die out.
I think it's just a trend for it

to become a part of culture.
It has to be accessible to that

culture.
It has to meld and bond and mix

with the local things, you know,
And we're seeing that slowly,

you know, in some places.
That's where I think language

and culture by a much bigger
part, the role that people think

it.
I'm a big history lover and I'm

a, I'm a big believer that many
of these trends, if you don't

understand the local culture and
the history of that place,

you'll never managed to get a
proper fit within that world.

And I, I really like what you
were saying about this

subculture and how do we make it
a, a bigger kind of culture,

like to remove some of the
frictions in entering the bar

and making things more
approachable In the sense that I

remember some time ago, like I
was in a bar and I was with a

colleague of mine and we, we
opened the iPad and, you know,

we just wanted to have a drink.
And then we just like sitting at

the table, not even at the bar.
At the bar.

I would have understood it, but
we're sitting at the table and

we would go in through some
things on the iPad.

And then the, the, the, the
bartender waiter comes to us.

It's like in this bar, like we
don't allow people using

technology.
You should talk to each other.

It's like what the fuck man?
But you have to make this

fucking rules.
Do you want me to leave because

I have to open my iPad for 15
minutes to look at some numbers

and some emails that are urgent
and we need to fix.

There is this thing that
sometimes like bars have become

this kind of like churches.
No, like that.

There are rules and stuff.
And it's like, come on.

Like it's about people having,
having a drink and having fun

and having a laugh.
Like going back to what you were

saying about, you know, I want
to, I like to sit at the bar and

never really sit at the table
unless I need to discuss some

private stuff and I don't want
to interact with the bartender.

But otherwise, I'm sitting
there, I'm sitting at the bar, I

want to talk to the bartender.
It's always fun.

Like whenever I've done some
bartending gigs, like in my old

days in Rome, there was this
friend of mine that he, he had a

proper school at the Planet
Hollywood in Rome.

And he was telling me like it
was like, Chris, I love you, but

if I let you be a bartender, I
need to hire another bartender

because you are just talking to
the guests.

They are all coming to the bar
like the lottery deck.

They're ordering more drinks
because they're chapped into

you.
But you cannot manage the Riddle

to make those cocktails.
So you need.

I had a post I made about this
years ago and I still have it

peeking around somewhere.
It's a categorization that I do,

and I say that you need balance
not just in your menu or in your

drinks.
You need balance in your team

and the generalization I make is
like there's 3 packs of

bartenders, the machine, the
nerd, and the clown.

The machine is the person who is
at dispense in the weeds.

The best person, fastest.
Fuck boy.

The nerd is the one who knows
everything about everything.

A little bit slower, can talk
about shocks, crews for five

days, whatever the clock.
And then you have the clown.

The clown is slowest, drinks are
average, but spends more time

talking to people and playing
with the music and playing with

the lights to make sure that the
cool vibe in a cool atmosphere.

You can't have a bar full of
crowns, you can't have a bar

full of machines.
You fucking have a bar full of

nerd.
You need to have balance.

Nowadays every cocktail bar you
work in is stacks full of nerd.

And nerds are boring.
They just love jerking each

other off.
So you need to get somebody who

who is going to beat the
chatterbug.

Of course, of course, of course.
A lot of people are a mixture of

two or three or more.
There's probably more

categories.
That's just the one I've

created.
But I I 100% tell people that

the three rule really works.
Absolutely.

It's really a thing.
Very often the person we

remember is the cloud.
We don't remember the other

people.
So it's you need that chatty

person the otherwise your bar is
boring.

Absolutely, absolutely.
And that's a nice wrap up of

this interesting shop that we
had.

So Daniel let people know how to
find you.

I mean, like you, you don't
really need that.

That's just like for those that
those five people that will not

know you when when I post this
episode, tell them how to find

you.
And we gave a lot of

recommendation, a lot of tapes.
But like, if you want to leave a

message to the drinks and
hospitality war out there, like

feel free.
If you'd like to find me on

Instagram, I only really exist
on Instagram.

It's at cocktail now.
Yeah, I got them before

everybody else.
Walk them all.

And if I can leave you with
anything, I have a few phrases I

like to throw around, but I'm
testing a new one out and I

don't know if you do.
You have this in Italy where

when you read, when you go to
school and you have to read a

passage and you read it like and
your teacher said can you please

read with intonation?
Yes, absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a big thing in Italy.

Right, Yeah, right.
So you have to give like

emphasis on certain words to
create flow, create almost like

a like like a beautiful music
with your mother.

So you you have to read.
You read not just a sentence,

you give it some wah.
So I like to say to people,

please live your lives with
intonation.

I love that I knew that in the
in the in the deep of your

heart, you were proper sweet
person and very deep.

I knew, I knew that it would
come out at the end of the

episode, after, after, after all
the green.

After all of the months, he
actually has a romantic heart.

He's actually a sweet guy.
Thanks a lot Daniel.

It was a great pleasure.
I hope to meet you soon

somewhere.
Hit me up if you ever in Prague

and we'll go for a few for a few
cocktails and we'll have a fun

time.
Deal on it.

All right.
Thank you so much.

Thank you, Daniel Ciao.
That's all for today.

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