Hidden Money Podcast

Most people assume a tax refund means their CPA did a good job. Mike and Kevin are here to tell you otherwise.

In this episode, they break down the real difference between a tax refund and genuine tax savings... and why getting money back in April might actually be a sign you’ve been overpaying all year.

They walk through the safe harbor strategy, share a real client example of $700K in income with a $10K tax bill, and make the case that the same tax code the ultra-wealthy use is available to anyone with the right strategist in their corner.

Don't overpay! Let us help you plan and save instead → https://www.revotaxpayer.com/consultation?utm_source=revo-taxpayer&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=s4e16-tax-savings-not-refund&utm_content=announcement

Connect With Us
Chapters
[00:00] Introduction — Is Your Tax Refund Actually a Bad Sign?
[00:36] The Interest-Free Loan — What a Refund Actually Means
[01:32] Trump’s Tax Returns and Why They’re Not Controversial
[04:48] Teaching the Government to Budget (Like Kevin’s Daughters)
[07:19] Getting Back to the Point: Refund ≠ Good Tax Planning
[09:09] Safe Harbor Explained — The Smart Way to Handle Estimates
[11:32] The Money Market Hack That Paid an Entire Salary
[12:36] The Sales Call Moment: “$186,000 Left on the Table”
[14:04] You Don’t Need to Know the Tax Code — You Need Someone Who Does
[15:40] The Elon Musk Thought Experiment
[17:47] Closing and CTA

What is Hidden Money Podcast?

In the Hidden Money podcast, you'll learn how you can legally use the tax code to your financial advantage. There’s wealth inside the tax code. Taxes aren’t the enemy.
Most people hate taxes (and pay more than they should). But when you view taxes only as an evil expense, you miss out on legal ways to grow your wealth. Unlock the secrets to saving tax and building wealth with the Hidden Money Podcast! 🎧💰 Hosted by Mike Pine and Kevin Schneider.

Mike Pine: I would say at least a third
of all the new sales calls I have with a

new potential client, I ask them, " How
much are you paying in taxes each year?"

And they're like, "I
usually get a refund."

And it's like, "Okay, but how
much did you NOT get refunded?"

He's like, "Well, I don't know.

I got a refund, so obviously
we're doing pretty good.

My CPA's been good.

Rarely do I ever have to pay anything in.

I'm getting a refund."

I was like, "Would you mind
sharing your tax return?

Just go to 1040, page two for me.

And they do it.

And you get down to total tax, about a
third of the way down that second page.

And I said, "So you got a $14,000 refund.

Your total tax was $200,000 man.

So you left $186,000 on the table, and
you said your CPA is doing good for you?"

And they're like, " Wait,
but I never saw that money."

I was like, "It came out of your W-2.

That was your money."

Welcome to this episode of
the Hidden Money Podcast.

This might be a little offensive
to some people, this episode,

but we're going to get real here.

Um, I hear all the time people saying,
"I don't pay taxes, I got a refund."

Tax refund does not always
mean good tax planning.

It can mean the exact opposite.

We're going to get into that
in a little more detail.

Kevin Schneider: in a little more detail.

Mike Pine: But what we're
trying to do here is get you

to think about it differently.

Kevin Schneider: Is

Mike Pine: overpaying taxes smart, Kevin?

Kevin Schneider: No.

Mike Pine: That was a
hard question for you.

Kevin Schneider: You-
Thanks for that easy one.

No, to pay, if you pay, overpay your
taxes and you're getting a refund, it

really is just paying money in to get it
back, and it's g- if you put $10 in and

you get a $10 refund, that $10 is not
coming back $11 as if you invested it.

That $10 you paid and refunded is
coming back $10 a year from now.

So it means

Mike Pine: get a $10 refund, that $10 is
not coming back $11 as if you invested it.

That $10 you paid and refunded is
coming back $10 a year from now So

it means you overpaid your taxes.

You gave the government
an interest-free loan.

That's right.

I don't think that's smart.

I

Kevin Schneider: I would give

Mike Pine: I'll give some people
in my family an interest-free loan.

I wouldn't give you an interest-free loan.

Or the government.

Uh, certainly not the government.

They don't pay me interest.

But, um, to make this a little lighter,
'cause we're gonna get serious, I wanna

share one of, one of the more funny
videos I've seen, and we're gonna do

something new here and queue up a video.

Not getting political here,
but let's be smart about taxes.

Please, let's see this video

Video: Or maybe he doesn't want
the American people, all of you

watching tonight, to know that
he's paid nothing in federal taxes.

Because the only years that anybody's
ever seen were a couple of years when

he had to turn them over to state
authorities when he was trying to get

a casino license, and they showed he
didn't pay any federal income tax.

So- That makes me smart … if he's
paid zero, that means zero- He's

such a smart ass … for Trump, zero
for- Okay, we got our memes … zero-

Mike Pine: That makes me smart.

Truth is, is, is, like, ProPublica
released a bunch of tax returns 'cause

this guy from Booz Allen, um, stole,
like, the top 15,000 people's tax returns.

He just got a slap on the
wrist by the way, five years.

Uh, incredible.

But we got to see all of Trump's tax
returns eventually before the end of

his first term, and, uh, he didn't pay.

I mean, some years he did pay taxes.

A lot of years he didn't.

I could not find one illegitimate tax
thing that he had done on his tax return.

Granted, I didn't have all the backup
detail, but he took a lot of depreciation.

He used net operating losses.

That is smart.

It is not smart to not know the tax
code, to not think about it, to not

plan for it, and suddenly be happy
'cause the government sends you a check

at, on April 15th when you file your
taxes and say, "Yes, I got a refund."

Think differently about it.

You got your money back that
the government stole from you

or, or forcefully took from

Kevin Schneider: you, right?

Yeah.

And I, I think in that debate or a prior
debate, he even went on to say, he's like,

"Hey, I'm, I'm running for president.

I'm using your tax code that's…

You're in office.

The Democrats are in office.

I'm just utilizing the tax code that's
already there, and it's beneficial to me."

And then Hillary went on to say, you
know, well, she tried to spin it just

saying, "Hey, you're not giving money
to the military, to healthcare, to all

these benefits the government does."

And he goes, "Yeah, I'm not because I'd
rather be in control of my own money."

And that's what we advocate for our

Mike Pine: clients

to do.

And create jobs.

Kevin Schneider: there is a
degree, and we do think it's

our patriotic duty to pay taxes.

Yes.

Because I do love having our military,
I do loving having the benefits, and

I love paying my property tax to an
extent, but I, I protest it every year.

But my property taxes go to those nice
roads, nice schools that I got, the

fire department, police department.

Those are necessary.

I agree.

We're not saying that it's your civic
duty to not pay tax, but it could be

in your best interest if we can legally
utilize the tax code to not pay taxes,

whether it's property tax, which we
don't specialize in, but we fight them.

I fight mine every year, or
federal or state income tax.

There's things that you could do
to lower that burden, and instead

of giving the government that
money, what could you do with it?

Could you give more to your community?

Could you give more to your
children, their college fund,

your investment portfolio?

Create a stable financial picture
for yourself instead of relying on

Social Security, Medicare, and all
these other governmental programs.

What if we were independently, uh,
financially stable and we didn't…

If, if Social Security goes away, it's
okay 'cause I've tax planned millions of

dollars of savings in my working years
to where I'm stable enough to where if

Social Security goes under, I'm okay.

I'm not

Mike Pine: fine.

Let

me, let me take a different
side of this as well.

This is political, but it's
nonpartisan or bipartisan or whatever.

It's, it's not pro any party.

You have children.

Your children are older than…

Well, two of your children
are older than my children.

Um, when you're teaching them
budgeting, when they overspend

on their budget, do you just give

Kevin Schneider: them more money?

No.

In fact, they actually-- We bought them
these skiing goggles last year, like

these nice snorkel masks with these, uh…

I don't know.

They were like 30, 40 bucks each.

And I was like, "That's
a lot for a snorkel."

They lost it.

This-- It's, it's so-- It's
starting to get hot again, and

so we're out there at the pool.

We're like, "Hey, go get your snorkels."

"I don't know where it is, Dad."

And I'm like, "You're buying it."

I was like, "I ain't forking another
40 bucks over for your snorkel.

Now, if you pay for it, maybe you're
gonna actually keep track of it."

Mike Pine: Yeah.

Well, we've seen over and over
in the news recently where the

government is just wasting money.

I mean, we just saw this big shutdown
a year ago where there was gonna

be cuts to Medicare and Medicaid,
and that was gonna hurt people.

And then in the last six months, we've
seen billions and billions of dollars i-

with ridiculous fraud and waste going on.

My thought is, if you just keep pouring
money into the government and don't force

them to budget it, let them think, "Hey,
it's not your money anyways, it's the

government's money," they have no reason
to try to figure out how to budget, to

try to figure out how to eliminate waste.

It's not their money.

Our politicians, they are taking
our money under threat of prison,

taking our money and wasting it.

I think if by smart tax planning
and making sure we don't overpay our

taxes, we're kind of giving them, like
you do with your daughters, "Okay,

well then you don't get your snorkel.

You better figure it out," because if you
don't provide good Medicaid benefits for

your, for your constituents, guess what?

They're gonna vote you out and find
someone else, and that's how it should be.

It's just we ought to tie it to how
these people are fiscally responsible.

Kevin Schneider: What do you

want to go next?

Infinite budgets don't work.

Uh, uh, endless pool.

Well, we have it for the

Mike Pine: Inflation doesn't work,
uh, it- Only, only for the United

States so far, but it ain't working.

I mean, did you see right now our
biggest line item that we're spending

as a government is interest expense?

We spend more money…

The United States is spending more money
this year on interest than they are in

defense and health and human services.

Because they waste the

Kevin Schneider: money.

Keep me

We, we borrow it to spend it
and borrow it, and it goes

to fraud and all these other-

Mike Pine: It's just, yeah.

Anyway, sorry.

Soapbox.

But let's get back to the
whole point of this episode.

If you get a tax refund,
it doesn't necessarily mean

you've got good tax planning.

Kevin Schneider: Fund, it doesn't
necessarily mean you've got a good

tax plan But it does mean that
you did some tax planning maybe.

Now, there's a lot of people who
are W2 earners who pay taxes as they

go, and they don't even kn- really
feel it, and at the end of the year

they're like, "Hey, 4,000 bucks."

That's not tax planning, that's
just th- you've overpaid your

taxes throughout the year.

Yes.

There are some of our clients who are W2
earners making $800 million on a W2, and

they're getting a 200, $300,000 refund.

Now, that is tax planning, and that refund
is gonna be used to invest and grow.

But that's because we plan
to get that big refund.

They're not just sitting
tight and wondering where

the chips fall every April.

No.

So that is an actual tax plan.

Now, there are even clients that we
do this to where we tax plan in Q1,

Q2 and we say, "Hey, if it's possible,
just sh- cut your withholdings way

short so that we're not getting a
$200,000 refund at the end of the year.

Instead, we're maybe getting a $50,000
refund or a $70,000 refund because

we've sh- shorted our withholdings."

Mike Pine: withholdings."

And they get to keep that money in
their accounts that's earning them

Kevin Schneider: they're going
right now, so they don't have

to wait to get this refund.

Now, on the other side, we do have clients
who tax plan up the wazoo and still

pay tax, and that's okay too because
they're not paying in so- as much.

So they could be making a million
dollars as a self-employed.

And if you're self-employed and you
make a million dollars, you should be

paying probably 30, 40 grand a quarter.

But let's say we tax plan and you
only pay one quarter of taxes.

You pay 30 grand of tax on
your, your million bucks or

wha- I don't know, whatever.

That math doesn't math, but- It
doesn't math … I don't math live.

So

Mike Pine: yeah.

I'm,

Kevin Schneider: I'm Let's say it, it's

Mike Pine: you.

Kevin Schneider: 80, 100 grand.

So instead of paying 300, 400
grand like you're supposed to,

you've cut your tax bill to 100.

Now, it still feels hard.

You're like, "Ah, I gotta
cut 100K to the government."

Yeah.

But what if we didn't plan?

You

Mike Pine: would've cut four.

Agreed.

And we have clients that come to
us, brand new clients come to us,

and they didn't pay any quarterly
in and they got to cut a check for

3 or 400 and that, that is painful.

Um, in a perfect world, I think you
ought to pay the government about 900

bucks on tax day every year, 'cause
if it's under 1,000 they're not going

to assess you any penalties, or if
you safe harbor and you're making more

money each and every year, you pay
50,000, you're not paying interest.

You should avoid paying the government
interest except in the rare times where

you can get arbitrage and make more money
in a money market account than the IRS

is going to charge you for underpaying.

Um, we, we haven't seen that in a

Kevin Schneider: since
interest has gone up, but-

Yeah, act- I had a
consult with a client…

So here's the cool thing
about tax planning, and

Mike Pine: 'cause you
mentioned safe harbor.

Are you saying there's one
cool thing about tax planning?

Kevin Schneider: about tax planning?

I had- This is

Mike Pine: This is a,

Kevin Schneider: a cool thing-
Yeah … about tax planning.

We had a client who paid about $10,000
in tax, total tax, for the whole year,

and they make re- relatively about 700,
800K- Mm-hmm … as business owners.

Their tax was s- really low.

So the cool thing is now next
year, we safe harbor them, and

what safe harbor means is long as
you pay 110% of last year's tax,

you owe no penalties, underpayment
penalties, or interest on your tax

until after April 15th of next year.

So what that means is now this year,
and we haven't even really dug into tax

planning with them, we just did a, what
we do, a discovery call, and they're

like, "Should I make my estimates?"

I'm like, "Yeah, you can make…

Like, you owed $10,000 of tax last year.

When

Mike Pine: we hang up

Kevin Schneider: on this meeting-
Pay 11,000 … pay 11,000 bucks.

Done.

Your estimates are done.

Now, does that match
your total tax liability?

It may or may not.

If we tax plan again, maybe, but if
we don't tax plan, you safe harbored.

In Q1, you have

Mike Pine: paid eleven thousand bucks.

And put all the rest

Kevin Schneider: And put all the rest
in a nice money market- You invest

it, save it- And earn … whatever,
you have it available- Yes

instead of paying all of this quarterly,
just know that, hey, we're gonna

stash this away in case I don't tax
plan, or my tax plan doesn't pan out,

or just whatever chips fall on the
tax planning side, I don't know yet.

But if you sit and do nothing,
at least you have it there.

But

Mike Pine: you sit and do nothing,
at least you have it there.

Yeah.

Like then you've

saved that money.

And you've gotten that interest.

And this is something we've
learned as a firm together.

You taught me as a firm, 'cause,
uh, we never used-- We just

used business checking accounts.

We have a bunch of them, but we
just used business checking and

we get like pittance on interest.

And my, my, my CPA partner here says,
"Mike, the, you know, we're losing

out on a lot of interest here."

And I'm like, "Yeah, but I mean, I--
It's-- We got so many accounts, I don't

want to have savings accounts 'cause
they have all these other rules."

Well, Kevin goes and opens
a money market account.

He sweeps all of our money, even though we
do profit first, which means we have a lot

more checking accounts than we need to.

He sweeps all our money into this
money market account, and we just

got through a year of that, and you
paid, in interest, paid for an entire

salary for one of our team members.

That was-- We didn't have
to go make that money.

Yeah.

Yet that's-- You can do that by
smart tax planning and with estimated

payments and safe harboring.

Kevin Schneider: Just liquid- It's
just real money … liquid, it's

available, um, but it's stable interest.

Yeah.

You know, instead of just sitting
in a checking account, which

we're used to allocating across.

Yeah.

Mike Pine: But I want
to solidify this point.

Um, I would say at least a third of all
the new sales calls I have with a new,

new potential client, I ask them, "How
much are you paying in taxes each year?"

And they're

like, "I usually get a refund."

Yeah, I get that a lot.

And it's like, "Okay, but how
much did you not get refunded?"

He's like, "Well, I don't know.

I got a refund, so obviously
we're doing pretty good.

My CPA's been good.

He-- Rarely do I ever
have to pay anything in.

I'm getting a refund."

I was like, "Can, can we-- would
you mind sharing your tax return?

Just go to 1040 page two for
me, and let's pull it up on our

Zoom and let's look at this."

And they do it.

And you get down to total tax, about a
third of the way down that second page.

And I said, "So you got a $14,000 refund.

Your total tax was $200,000 man.

So you left $186,000 on the table, and
you said your CPA is doing good for you?"

And they're like, "Wait,
but I never saw that money."

I was like, "It came out of your W-2.

That was your money.

It was, it was confiscated from you.

That's your money."

So just because you're getting
a refund doesn't mean you're

doing good tax planning.

Um, just because you have
to pay tax doesn't mean

Kevin Schneider: you have to
pay tax doesn't mean you're

not doing good tax planning.

Yeah.

It's all relative to your certain
facts and circumstances, but

Mike Pine: Any tax

Kevin Schneider: is better than none.

Yes.

And if you've paid your
withholdings throughout the year,

we're gonna get it refunded.

We're gonna do the best we can
to get that money back to you.

But there's ways that we can maybe plan
and pay our withholding smarter to where

we're not just paying our, our fair share

Mike Pine: Yeah … every paycheck.

Later on in that debate that we started
with, um, I think that Donald Trump said,

"I know more about the tax code than
anyone that's ever run for president."

And, and I guess he probably does.

I, I don't know.

Well-

Kevin Schneider: I don't
know how we verify it,

Mike Pine: I don't know how we
verify that … yeah, I don't know.

But he knows the tax code.

He's utilizing it.

But the reality is, is he's paid millions
of dollars every year to CPAs, to tax

attorneys to, to, to tell him about
the tax code, to decipher it for him.

Dude, the tax code is
incredibly complicated.

There are so many things
in there, and I study this.

I-- For fun, I study tax.

There's so many things I barely
know anything about in there.

You don't have to be smart and, and
claim you know, you know all the tax

code, 'cause I promise you he doesn't.

Um, you gotta find
someone that will for you.

You gotta find an advocate that will
advocate for you utilizing the tax code

for your benefit, and you don't have to
pay millions of dollars to tax attorneys.

You look at, uh, again, when
ProPublica released all those tax

returns, you gotta see Jeff Bezos,
Elon Musks, Mark Zuckerbergs,

they are paying hardly any taxes.

Warren Buffett, although he paid more
taxes than all them, um, they're paying

tens if not hundreds of millions of
dollars to CPAs and tax attorneys.

You don't have to do that.

We and other good tax strategists out
there use the same benefits, the same

opportunities in the tax code, in the
tax court cases, in the tax regulations.

Those are available to you.

You don't have to pay millions for it.

They're there.

Kevin Schneider: Use them, please.

Yeah.

And I think there was an interview
with Elon, and he said that

his tax return is very easy.

He said, "It takes 15, 20
minutes to do my tax return."

He goes, "I own some Tesla stock."

He's, he receives a salary, and he's
like- He's got like 11 billion- I'll,

I'll find that clip and embed it in
this episode, but it's just funny.

It was just a quick…

He's just like, "Yeah, you could,
you could do my tax return."

And I was like, it made me think.

I was like, "Elon, are, what
are you leaving on the table?"

Like, my clients who aren't near in the
same stratosphere as him net worth-wise

have complicated tax returns, and
we don't complicate it on purpose.

Attorneys like to complicate
things, I think, on purpose because,

yeah, it drives fees, but it,
it, there's ways to protect you.

They're playing a little defense.

There's protections there that
the complexity makes you safer.

In tax, we're not looking
to overcomplicate things.

Some things we do are very simple.

There are some complex things, but
complex- complexity doesn't always

mean that you're doing it right.

There's some simple tried and true things
that you could do to save taxes, and I'll

find that clip of Elon and put it up.

But it made me think.

I was like, "Man, what is
he leaving on the table?

At your net worth, why is
your tax return so simple?"

Mike Pine: But is it, I mean,
is it because he's a genius

and he actually probably has
memorized the entire tax code?

Or he just doesn't care.

Or he doesn't realize it.

He's paid someone $10 million to prepare
all the details, and he just signs two

pages and he's like, "Oh, that's simple."

Um, or is he leaving Bill…

Oh my gosh.

Elon Musk, I know there's rarely…

It, it's like the odds
are one in a trillion.

Now I got a better chance I'm
gonna get hit by lightning right

now than you will ever see…

If any Elon Musk please give us a call.

Let us look at your taxes.

If, if you think they're easy or
leaving money on the table- Yeah

Kevin Schneider: Yeah, for

Mike Pine: highly likely.

Wouldn't that be so cool?

It is.

Yeah.

Well, we saved

Kevin Schneider: Elon Musk $17 billion.

That

would jump our spreadsheets up.

'Cause we track all of our clients
of how much tax we save, and we have

a goal kind of in our head of how
much we want to save people, and

he would, uh, definitely jumpstart

Mike Pine: I could do it.

I mean, our goal, my goal, you laugh
at me, but you're on board with me.

The rest of our team
says, "Yeah, right, Mike."

It's to save a billion
dollars in taxes a year.

We could do that with one client.

Come

Kevin Schneider: do, we could 10X that.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Well, so hopefully this was
educational, a little funny for you.

But yeah, there is a major difference
between tax savings and tax refund.

So we want both to happen
if you've paid in taxes.

But if you don't know, or if
you're leaving money on the

table and you have nowhere to go,
check us out at revotaxpayer.com,

um, and we would just love to
have a conversation with you.

We can serve you, we can help you.

You don't have to know the tax code.

You do not have to claim what
Donald Trump claims and know the

tax code better than everyone else.

You just need to have the people
on your team that understand

the tax code and can guide you
through it, and that's what we do.

So reach out to us.

Mike Pine: And please like, subscribe,
comment, and put this on Twitter.

I'm sorry, on X.

If there's any chance for Elon
Musk to hear us, we need your help.

So

Kevin Schneider: like, subscribe, comment,

Mike Pine: and post it

Kevin Schneider: hear
us, we need your help.

So like and subscribe
and post it towards Elon.

Yeah, tag him.

Tag him.

Hashtag him.

All right, thanks guys.

Thank you for listening to this episode.

Revo Taxpayer Advocacy LLC is not licensed
or registered as a CPA firm with the

Texas State Board of Public Accountancy.

I'm a CPA, Kevin's a CPA.

We have a lot of CPAs on staff that are
licensed and held to the same standards.

However, when we decided to be
revolutionary and change our

name to Revell Taxpayer Advocacy,
the state board would not allow

that and let us remain licensed.

They say we have to have one
of our names in the firm for

us to be licensed as a firm.

And guess what?

It's not us that's important.

It's revolutionizing the way you feel
about taxes and saving you money.

We are advocates for you, so we were
willing to drop our firm license even

though we're still individually licensed.