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The Winds of Change podcast is centered on the people, places, history, and stories of Wyoming. We talk about identity, community, land, change and what it means to thrive in the state. How does someone identify with wide spaces and big personalities in small towns? Listen to folks from across our state share their connection to Wyoming and home. Or others who are pining for opportunities to invite change. And still, there are many voices who welcome the challenge. Making a life here means persistence. Some families have been here for generations and stay true, heads held high, through the blustery winters. Others are newcomers making sense of the unfamiliar winds the world continually blows in.
[00:00:00] Emy Digrappa: Welcome to Winds of Change, the podcast where we explore history people and places of Wyoming. I am your host Emy
[00:00:09] Lynette St. Clair: Digrappa
[00:00:10] Emy Digrappa: and we are on a journey. We journey through the vibrant tapestry of the Shoshone culture with my special guest Lynette St. Clair, a dedicated linguist and cultural preservationist from Fort Washakie, Wyoming, raised amidst the rich traditions and the Shoshone language on the Wind River reservation.
[00:00:31] Lynette has devoted her life to preserving these treasures for future generations. And I wanna honor her today because she was honored as one of USA Today's Women of the Year. Her work in education and advocacy continues in to inspire. She inspires me, and I know she's inspiring young people. Join us as Lynette shares her story from the sounds of her childhood to the voices she uplifts today.
[00:01:02] Welcome, Lynette. Thank you, Emy. It's good to be here. Oh my gosh. It's so good to see you again. And, and you know, I wanted to, I wanted to learn about, your reward, your award, from USA today. How did that happen?
[00:01:16] Lynette St. Clair: So I have been working, actually I retired from my normal career back in 2023. And in that respect, I was the, uh, administrator for the oversight of our Indian education department at the local school district here on the reservation.
[00:01:36] And after I retired from that, I.
[00:01:40] A couple of series platforms. One for Amazon Prime and the other for Netflix. And so in doing that work, I was able to bring authenticity and bring. The actual Shoshone language to the big screen. And I think I'm just, I'm just thinking that that was probably what contributed to the honor that I received this year.
[00:02:04] Oh my gosh. That's great. So you were born and raised on the Wind River Reservation? Yes. and what, what is your education? How did you go on from there to. get educated and become a linguist.
[00:02:19] So my educational background, I'm just gonna start from when I was younger, and just growing up here on the reservation in the school districts that I attended, there was really no representation of people like myself.
[00:02:35] in the school that I attended, you know, our teachers, there were very few that were Shoshone or Native American and. The counselors, of course, you know, they had a different worldview or a different perspective of, of what it was like to be Shoshone. And so a lot of the time the resources that were provided were from a non-native perspective, which was, I felt not really applicable to my life situation.
[00:03:03] And so as I got older, I started to realize that we needed to have more people that were representative of our community in schools. And that was kind of a, a goal that I had set way back when I was a teenager because I think I would've been a lot more successful had I had the guidance and the support, not only from the educational community, but also from my own family and my own community to be a little, you know, to have achieved a lot more things, you know, as I was growing older.
[00:03:34] But it is what it is. But I did see that there was a lack of, uh, representation. From the indigenous community. And so, when I went to work, I started working at the school district as a, a support personnel. As a secretary. I was the school secretary there at the school. And I, I started to see again, you know, the lack of, Accurate depiction of our history. And so that really spurred me into trying to support our teachers mm-hmm. In providing that, you know, wholesome, valuable resource for our students. We had a really great social studies teacher, and at the time our school was only a K eight facility and he taught about the, the history of the reservation.
[00:04:21] He taught, you know, what he could, what he knew. About, you know, the, um, about the reservation. And so, you know, I think, you know, he tried, for what it's worth, I think he really tried to, to contribute to that positive aspect of, of learning for our younger students. But throughout the years, you know, that gradual, progress had diminished because of course he left.
[00:04:44] And then there was, there was that gap. And so I started to see another trend, which was a turnover in administration. So when a position came open to be the, uh, coordinator for the Indian Education Department, I jumped at that opportunity. Um, and I eventually was hired to do, to do exactly what I had, uh, seen that was lacking in our school district.
[00:05:08] So I started working with our community. I worked with our elders, and we developed A core belief system culture based, program. Taking the, the values of the Shoshone community and putting them into, lessons that were applicable to our students, that it also incorporated the language.
[00:05:27] And so, um, that was kind of like in a nutshell, just my career path. But, uh, I attended school here at Fort Washoe. I went eventually to Lander Valley High School, which is a border town here on the reservation. Um, and like I said, if I, if I'd had the educational support, um, I think I would've been a lot more successful.
[00:05:47] But, you know, I saw the, there was, a huge, I guess. misinformation about the reservation people, reservation community, and the non-native C community. and so that created, uh, challenges for me, as a Shoshone person. after high school, I eventually went to, I moved away from here and moved to Las Vegas, and I worked for the Shoshone, uh, Shoshone Paiute tribe in Las Vegas.
[00:06:15] In the meantime, I continued to work towards getting my associate's degree, finally got my associate's degree, in, general studies, but with an emphasis in Native American studies. went to work at, the school here and eventually started to, you know, again, look at the language programming that was being taught and.
[00:06:35] Really wanted to provide a wholesome resource for the classroom teacher at that time. because of my language experience, having grown up in a home where language was being spoken, I've felt that I was probably one of the, people that could help in that regard. After I did, uh, I went back to school and got my undergrad, I got, uh, graduated from Montana State University Got my undergrad, and then eventually went to, uh, Southeastern Oklahoma State University and got my master's degree in Native American leadership with the emphasis on language and governmental structures. So. All of that in a nutshell was just kind of what guided me to do what I'm doing now.
[00:07:16] And, and, um, since I've retired, I've had a lot more time to be able to, uh, provide or seek those services that are, are required or are necessary for our students, or, I mean our children and our community, to be able to, have a better grasp of our language and also do it, you know, through engaging, activities such as watching, you know.
[00:07:38] Representation of themselves or their language on, movies and in series.
[00:07:43] Emy Digrappa: You've been on quite a journey That's an amazing journey that you have stayed on. This has been like, your heart for many, many years and, did you grow up with your grandparents and your parents both speaking in Shoshone?
[00:07:59] Lynette St. Clair: Yeah, so my, both of my parents and I have, seven siblings. So, um, all of my, my household, we were all exposed to the language. My mom and my dad both spoke, and then my grandmother, I, I spent a lot of time, like many of us in the indigenous communities do we, I spent a lot of time with my gago. She was, uh, very limited in English, and so a lot of her conversations and a lot of our conversations were, in Shoshone because of her limited language experience in English.
[00:08:31] Emy Digrappa: Is it a big challenge? Because you're on a reservation with the Shoshone and the Arapaho tribe, and you're both trying to preserve your languages, and how does that work out in a classroom setting where you have both students from Arapaho and Shoshone? How does that, how do you work in that atmosphere?
[00:08:53] Lynette St. Clair: Yeah. So, um, having worked here in a predominantly Shoshone community at Fort Washakie School, it was a requirement, you know, for all students to learn Shoshone language. and then having gone from that setting to working at Wyoming Indian schools were. It was offered for both Shoshone and Arapaho. So when the parents register their students, they're the ones that indicate whether or not they want their child to be in Shoshone or Arapaho language class.
[00:09:22] in my class I had many Shoshone students, but also I had some students that were Arapaho that wanted to learn Shoshone. Coming from two very distinct, linguistic backgrounds. I mean, for the Arapaho, they belong to the, Algonquin, I believe. And then the, uh, Shoshone is the Ute Aztecan language, family, those two branches of, language.
[00:09:45] and so having to, make that distinction in those, um. You know, those, uh, language, characteristics was really challenging. But I did actually have a student who was Lakota, who was in my class, and so she spoke Lakota, she spoke, um, Arapaho, and she spoke Shoshone. She was able to speak all three and one day she, you know, we were talking, and, and she did, she said that, you know what, Mrs.
[00:10:12] S. I know three languages. And I said, that is so awesome. I said, that is so great. I said, you hang on to that and always remember that because that's how our old people were. My grandmother actually spoke Arapaho because she would attend, ceremony with the Northern Arapaho people here, and they, you know, they just kind of interchanged and attended ceremonies together and, and, um.
[00:10:37] She was a water, she was actually a water carrier for one of the, for the ceremonies, and they called upon her to come and be part of the ceremony all the time. So she knew Arapaho and she was a Shoshone speaker. The same thing with, you know, our, my go show was Aki. He spoke, you know, French, he spoke, Arapaho, he spoke Shoshone, and you know, so he knew all of these different languages as well, and in addition to Plains, um, Indian sign language.
[00:11:08] And so there's all of these languages, you know, that, that we have been exposed to, but we need to, you know, continue to try and carry on that, that, uh, tradition, I guess.
[00:11:19] Emy Digrappa: Right. Don't let it be lost. We're so easily distracted these days, I feel like. Yeah. And especially our young people. Yep.
[00:11:27] tell me again the root of the Shoshone language. What did you say it was? The Ute Aztecan. Yeah. What, what is, what is the, um,
[00:11:37] Lynette St. Clair: history of
[00:11:37] Emy Digrappa: that?
[00:11:38] Lynette St. Clair: So, um, in linguistic terms, so when, uh, the early linguists came out and they started to study our communities, our indigenous communities mm-hmm. The one, in particular, who was the linguist who came out and studied our people here? The Shoshone people was Dimitri Kin. This was back in the, mid 18 hundreds and early 19 hundreds. Wow. And what he, uh, and so they have these branches or these na, these language, categories that they place.
[00:12:06] These languages in they discovered that with the Eastern sh or the Wind River Shoshones is how they refer to us.
[00:12:13] Emy: Okay. The
[00:12:14] Lynette St. Clair: Wind River Shoshones, Our languages were similar to that of the Shoshone Bannock. Were similar to that of the Western Shoshone. Mm-hmm. And we're similar to that of the, uh, Comanche people.
[00:12:26] And so at one time on our history, our stories, our, our oral stories tell us that we were all one huge group. Langu, you know, group of people at one time, thousands, you know, we had thousands of members that were in our, in our tribe. And as we migrated north, we started to branch off in different directions, right?
[00:12:49] and so one of the stories that I, I've heard was that. When we got more, north, we started coming up north. we were following the buffalo herds and so we come, we're Buffalo people. And so when we got to the southern part of, of, Utah, that's when there was this, this agreement over the number of, of meats that was being distributed to the people.
[00:13:13] And eventually, one branch went. West, another branch went north, some went northeast, and then some went east. And so that's how our language family spread out. But if we, when we all come together and each year our Shoshone people, we have a, a reunion called the Shoshone and Reunion, and we meet in different locations.
[00:13:34] And this year it's gonna be in Lawton, Oklahoma, where Jhane's from. We're going to, you know, we, we meet every year and we bring all of our language family members together. It's a reunion and, continue the tradition of, uh, speaking our language and, and sharing our, or our stories and, and sharing our culture.
[00:13:53] And it's a, it's a really nice good feeling for us to all come together.
[00:13:58] Emy Digrappa: Oh my gosh. So that must be huge because it's like families and elders and, Youth. That's beautiful. and you kind of explained it, so because you mentioned Shoshone Paiute, and they're from Oklahoma.
[00:14:12] Lynette St. Clair: The Shoshone Paiutes are from Nevada. salt Lake, Western Shoshones is really, you know, where they would, you would locate them at.
[00:14:20] Emy Digrappa: So do they get these different, names referenced depending on where, when they, when they all split up and everyone went different directions? Is that how they started distinguishing themselves from each other?
[00:14:34] I'm interested in how, It is not just, you know, your Shoshone, Fort Washakie. Mm-hmm. And so when you're Shoshone Paiute, do those differences take place based on the place you live?
[00:14:50] Lynette St. Clair: Yeah. So, um, let me see, how can I explain this?
[00:14:55] that's kind of a
[00:14:56] Emy Digrappa: crazy question, but you know, the Lakotas distinguish themselves in different ways. You know, all, all the tribes do. And if you're not a tribal member, it's lot more difficult to understand why. One tribe, one Lakota tribe is called this, and another Lakota tribe is called this.
[00:15:14] And the, with the Shoshone people?
[00:15:16] Lynette St. Clair: Yeah. So those L linguistic classifications I guess are, like you have the iroquoian languages, the alga languages, the Siouan languages, the, you know, Algonquin. Mm-hmm. Those are linguistic classifications for the Uto-Aztecan and languages there are generally, you know, it's a family of American Indian languages.
[00:15:38] But they're generally, recognized by, different branches, I guess. Mm-hmm. Um, the Numic, you know, that would be the Western Numic, which is the Mono and Northern Paiute. is the Comanche, the PanIN, and the Shoshone Goshute. The Southern Numics as a SHIs, the Southern Piutes and the Utes.
[00:16:00] So there's like this huge, you know, when you look at a map, um, you know, there's just this huge area that is blanketed by all of these, uh, U2, you know, these linguistic classifications. Um, even the, the Hopi and the, you know, um, the Serrano and the Ka. All, you know, those are California tribes. Those are part of our, our language, um, relatives.
[00:16:28] but eventually, you know, that's kind of the, the branch though is this indigenous, um, American language that spoken in central and western, United States.
[00:16:38] Emy Digrappa: Is there, a resource, a book? Someplace I can direct people to that want to learn and go deeper on, you know, all the different tribes and their languages.
[00:16:51] Lynette St. Clair: Yes. I would direct you to, and I'm, I'm trying to remember, 'cause this is kinda like, you know, when I was, doing my, linguistic classes, one of the classes or one of the books that I, um, I'll have to, uh, email that to you because. I think it's called Native Languages. but I do know Simkins referred to in that.
[00:17:11] Emy Digrappa: Okay. I would just love to learn, um, more about that. 1 thing that has been really interesting, because, Willie LeClaire was on our board and we recorded, um, many recordings of him doing the. The Plains Indian sign language, and I know how interested people are in this because those are some of the most visited pages on our website.
[00:17:37] Lynette St. Clair: yes. And he wasn't done, I mean, he had so much, you know, to contribute in terms of the preservation of, of that language. And in fact, that was one of the, my, My goals was to eventually, you know, sit down with him and develop a, you know, a resource again for our teachers utilizing the, you know, PISL and our, language and kind of mount, you know, putting that together, combining that.
[00:18:05] For, more effective resources, I think for our young people. For our people in general. 'cause I, when I say young people, I'm talking about people in their forties on down.
[00:18:16] Emy Digrappa: Yeah. Seriously.
[00:18:19] Lynette St. Clair: You know, um, just off, off the, well, kind of along the same topic, when we, uh, at Fort Washakie school, one of the first things that we accomplished, and I say we, because when I work in the language sector, it's a collective effort.
[00:18:32] It's not like me out there. I usually just wanna be the person helping coordinate and drive the efforts and providing that, you know, assistance when I, where I'm needed. But, um, one of the things that we did as a community was. We had our, um, people from our community come together and be models for our language app that we developed called the Nu Iwa app.
[00:18:55] And that was one of the first language, um, apps that the Shoshone tribe created. And, uh, it's a beautiful resource for people you know, that are looking for, a resource to help, acquire the language. But. I'll put it right here. If you can see, there's the, the rose right there. yes. I see it. And when you click on that, the language, okay. one of the things that I think is so very unique about this is that all of the people that are featured mm-hmm. Are local people. They're from our community.
[00:19:29] Emy Digrappa: Wow. That is so cool.
[00:19:32] Lynette St. Clair: and a
[00:19:32] Emy Digrappa: lot
[00:19:33] Lynette St. Clair: of
[00:19:33] Emy Digrappa: work, people put a lot of time into that.
[00:19:35] Lynette St. Clair: And, and then the other thing is we have, you know, we've featured people who are no longer with us.
[00:19:42] That was kind of the intent when, when I met, uh, up with critics, especially our elders, because those are our heaviest critics. You know, I was, uh, at work one day and, uh, one of the elders came to the school and, and, uh, this lady that I was working with came in and she was like, kind of freaking out.
[00:20:01] She's like, so and so wants to see you, and she's really upset. And I was like, why? Well, she wants to talk to you. So I'm like, okay. I, I really kind of thought I got through under the bus. Oh, no. Because I think would've been answered by anybody else. But anyway, I went out and I said, you know, greeted her and I said, um, what can I help you with?
[00:20:22] And she said, I wanna know what the, what you girls are up to. And I said. And she said, I hear you're doing something with a language and you're doing a, an app, this thing on the phone. 'cause she didn't know it was an app. And I said, oh yeah. I said, we're creating our, um, one of the first language apps. And she said, I don't agree with you.
[00:20:43] I don't think you should be doing that. And I was like, oh, okay. I said, well, you know, we sat at the powwow grounds this summer and we took names and we asked people, you know, if. If they were supportive of this idea and a lot of the people said that they wanted it, so, you know, I'm sorry you feel that way.
[00:21:02] And she said, I just don't agree with it. I don't want people to, I don't want people to know, um, 'cause they're gonna take our language. I said, well what is your suggestion? I mean, because, you know, we would like you to be a part of it, you know? 'cause I had asked her before if she would be a part of it, I said, we would like you to be a part of it and, and, um, you know, would you be interested in, in being one of our speakers?
[00:21:27] And she said, I don't want people to know our language 'cause they're gonna steal it from us. And I said, I understand. And I said, but, um, one of the ways that we wanna try and. Avoid something like that is by, um, you know, what, what do you suggest? And she said, well, I, I said, she didn't have a suggestion.
[00:21:46] She just was kind of mad because she didn't want it done. And I, so I talked with her and I said, you know, I know you helped create. You were part of the dictionary creation that was created by Reba Turan. Um, you worked with my brother Manford. You guys all worked together to create this great resource for our people.
[00:22:04] And I, I said, and now I use that a lot when I teach. And I said, so I'm so thankful that you guys did that. And she was like, yeah, we did do that. And I said, but they also have CDs that come with it. That teach the language, you know? I said, so this is no different. I said, we're just putting it on the phone.
[00:22:22] So many other people can have access to this. And she said, okay. And I said, and the other thing is, I'm so thankful that you guys did this, because even though my brother passed away, you know, I said, I can still hear his voice. And she said, yeah. And I said, and I want the same for you too. And so she agreed and she said, well, okay, I'll do it.
[00:22:44] But she said, I don't want you to write it because I don't want people to, you know, learn it. And I said, okay. And so that's one of the things is when people, that's one of the only, um, I think critical things that people say about the language app is, um, it's hard to understand because there's no, you know, you don't say, and then we have gone, it's all in Shoshone and there's no written word for it.
[00:23:06] Oh, wow. Okay. And so the, the whole purpose was, it was designed by purpose, and that is. People. She said, people need to hear the words and not be thinking about how to write it. You need to hear it in order to be, learn how to language, you know how to speak the language. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:23:25] Emy Digrappa: Wow. So interesting.
[00:23:26] You've, you've jumped a lot of hurdles for sure. Yeah. And I noticed that on the app is the Shoshone Rose. Yes. What is the history of the Shoshone Rose?
[00:23:38] Lynette St. Clair: You know, I've been asked that so many times and I've asked our elders about that, and I think, you know, the, the response is usually that's how you know people identify us now.
[00:23:50] Historically, there were floral patterns that were used by our people, and so the rows just, you know, it just kind of became more popular later on. But if you look at early bead work that was done, you know, I'm talking early bead work, like 18 hundreds into the early 19 hundreds, you'll notice that there were, um, like small, you know, pansy looking floral patterns, uh, diff different kind of floral patterns that were.
[00:24:20] Representative on, on regalia or moccasins or belts and stuff like that. And so, um, eventually it just became, you know, the Shoshone rose. And, um, that's what I've been told, you know, just by the later elders. but earlier, I think one of the things is that what represents us is that a lot of our, our medicines and our, um, things come from the rose.
[00:24:44] It's represented in from, from birth to death. And I can't elaborate any further on that, but that's, that's kind of the, the Rose story. And I think people who are tribal members and they hear this, they'll, they'll agree. They'll, they'll understand if, you know, you know? Right.
[00:25:04] Emy Digrappa: You know, I have, I have, really a love for how I.
[00:25:09] Conscientious, the native people are in listening to their elders and taking care of their elders. do you think it's so unique to the Native American cultures that they have such an admiration and respect for their elders? That is so tremendous and. so dignified, and I just appreciate that so much because you look at so many elderly people who are just left and forgotten.
[00:25:40] it is an, an amazing, tradition that you have taught. and everybody upholds it on the reservation.
[00:25:47] Lynette St. Clair: we do it without thinking about it. And I think one of the things that I think a lot of the time it comes just from the demonstration by the older folk.
[00:25:57] cause we're all told that we have to do certain things and, and be a certain way, but. If you don't have that reinforcement or you don't have a visual rep, you know, representation of that, somebody modeling that behavior, then obviously it's not going to, it's not going to take, which makes me, uh, fearful for future generations, not only for our indigenous communities, but for the global community.
[00:26:24] Mm-hmm. You know, I think, um, we need to. Start demonstrating that behavior again, you know, to, to ensure that it continues for generations to come. you know, I've always been told, you know, you have to respect your elders and, and you do that by, um, watching how other people model that behavior.
[00:26:44] of course we had a little bit of help when I was growing up. if you were outta your seat at a, at a social event and you weren't listening and things like that, our, um, tribes actually had, a person who would keep you in check and we, they were called the whipper ladies. So if you weren't, you know, with your parents, if you were at a, a council meeting, you were at a, a social gathering, you know, Christmas tree lighting, all those things.
[00:27:10] Yeah. And. Sitting down with your parents. So you were running around, you would get, the switcher lady would come and she'd switch you on the legs and tell you to go sit down. And you'd have to, you know, you'd have to listen. And so, um, that, of course you can't do that now because there'd be so much of a backlash.
[00:27:27] you know. Culturally that was the appropriate thing that our, our elder women would do. You have great respect for people when you're switched on the legs and told to sit down. Yeah, sit down. Yep. But, um, the other thing is, you know, just like I said, uh, we want to make sure that our young people understand that it's.
[00:27:51] Not only the right thing to do, but it's part of our cultural protocols. Mm-hmm. But they respect their elders, that they respect authority. Right. You know, in leadership positions you have to have that respect. And I think, you know, um, right now our young people there, they fa they face so many challenges.
[00:28:10] Emy Digrappa: Mm-hmm. And
[00:28:11] Lynette St. Clair: with, uh, social media and with all of these things that we're faced with now, our, our young people that were, you know, born in, 2001. Mm-hmm. They were born in an environment of trauma from nine 11, you know? Mm-hmm. And it's this generational thing, you know, for us, we were, we were born into the civil rights action and movement, you know, all of those things.
[00:28:34] And, earlier generations were born in the assimilation policy times and, and relocation times. And so we're always, you know, trying to. find ways to coexist, I guess, or, or to deal with these things that we have that are subliminal. And I think right now it's not, it's not so much subliminal, it's like in your face, you know, you have to be perfect.
[00:28:59] you have to have 10,000 followers or you, you don't exist and all of these things, you know, it's so crazy. And these young people are facing all of these challenges of just trying to be. Relevant when really just them being here on this earth is proof enough that they matter, that they're here and people care, you know?
[00:29:19] Right. So I think for us as older people, we have to reinforce our younger people and tell them, you know, when, when, the technology is no longer and things go sideways, you're only gonna have your families and our, your people to rely on. You have to know how to go out and live off the land. You're gonna have to know how to exist without that technology.
[00:29:42] And, um, you know, that's the way our, our old people lived. That's how our people, our ancestors lived. That's how we were able to continue to be here today, was because of that strength and that resilience and that looking out for your people. You know? So I hope you know that they. They're able to, um, come to that conclusion on their own.
[00:30:05] Emy Digrappa: well, in conclusion, because I, it's so great talking to you, Lynette. I could ask you 10 more questions, but, I, I want you to say a blessing in your language for everybody who's watching this podcast.
[00:30:22] Lynette St. Clair: so I would just say
[00:30:25] for everybody,
[00:30:43] so I just said. Our all knowing one for everybody. I pray that you all feel good. I feel good today. And I pray that you do too. That's it.
[00:30:56] Emy Digrappa: Wow. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. It's been so wonderful to talk to you. I've learned a lot and I, and I, um, want you to send me, um, some of your resources that people can learn.
[00:31:09] I think. I'm so excited for, the Native American right now today because I feel like they are finding their own strength. they are recovering from tr great trauma and they are really pushing forward. So thank you so much. Thank you. It's been great being here.
[00:31:31]