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Do Good Work is not a label but a way of living.
It is the constant and diligent effort to achieve a new level of excellence in one’s own life.
It is the hidden inner beauty behind the struggle to achieve excellence.
It is not perfect but imperfect.
It is the effort, discipline and focus that often goes unnoticed.
The goal of this podcast is to highlight that drive.
The guests I have on this show emulate this drive in their own special way. You’ll be able to apply new ideas into your own life by learning from them.
We will also have 1on1 episodes with me where we’ll dive into my own experiences with entrepreneurship and leadership.
Every episode is designed to provide you with ideas that you can apply and grow in excellence in all areas of your life, business and career.
Do Good Work,
Raul
INTRO
PODCAST
Raul: welcome to the Do Good Work podcast.
Ana is the founder of Ground Control
Research where she helps brands and
their agencies replace assumptions
with insights that fuel marketing
strategy, . Anna, welcome to the pod.
Anastassia Laskey: Thank you.
Thank you for having me here, Raul.
Glad to be here.
Raul: So actionable insights
for Challenger brand.
It's like a David Goliath situation,
Anastassia Laskey: You know, I'm
always the, the fan of the underdog.
So, um, when I, when I started my
company nine years ago, I had a lot of
opportunity, just like everyone does.
Who do you wanna work with?
You know, and, um, I didn't
wanna work with the big dogs.
I wanted to work with the scrappy, the
scrappy upstarts, and I come from the
startup world before I started my firm.
So, um, I kind of have that, that
DNA, that ethos within me and, and,
uh, that's who I'm working with now.
Nine years later, I.
Raul: I.
love it in the game.
When we look at data and we look at what
we're doing in our marketing, what we're
doing in our go to market, who we're
talking to, what we're selling to, there's
usually like, I'll give an analogy.
Uh, when we're using either, um, like
fin or customer support agents, like
they get questions off the wall, they
get 10,000 different inquiries, but they
usually categorize 'em into different
buckets, like three different buckets.
Like a question might come in, and this
is usually one of these three or five.
When you're working with brands and
when you're working with companies and
we wanna do all these things, market
expansion, we want to make a new offer.
We wanna work with a new vertical, we
wanna go deeper, we wanna go horizontal.
There's 10,000 things
that they want to do.
So that's where the analogy plays in.
But I'm pretty sure there's only like five
or three options of what they can do based
on all the things that they want to do.
How do you help them decipher
that and what are some of the
options that are realistically
in front of all of us right now?
Anastassia Laskey: Absolutely.
So yeah, I do think what most.
Folks that I work with tend to
get really excited about and get
into first is sort of like the
infinite ideas and possibilities
of execution around something.
But what I'm trying to help them do is
before we decide officially what we're
going to execute out of that 10,000
list of things, what are those, you
know, again, the core territories of
what you can do with a business, right?
So, um, the first thing you
can do is you can, uh, keep.
The target market that you have and the
services that you have, and just get
better at communicating to that market.
The next thing you can do is
keep the market that you have and
launch another offering to that
market that makes sense to them.
Raul: Yeah.
Anastassia Laskey: Another thing you
could do is take the offers that you
have right now and launch them to a new
market, an adjacent market, hopefully to
some market you've been serving, right?
Um, and then something else you could
do, which is kind of challenging,
but people do pull this off.
There's some, usually some revenue, cash
flow issues if you just try to do this.
Too quickly, but, um, you can
try to launch a new thing, a new
offer to a totally new market.
Um, and so those are sort of the, it's
that sort of, those four things are
sort of what most business owners are,
um, doing, founders are doing, uh,
with their marketing strategy at least.
Raul: Oh Yeah.
marketing and
Anastassia Laskey: Yeah,
Raul: And I like how
you've identified that.
'cause each one stems off or
a higher level of risk and
a higher level of payoff.
Uh, obviously the first one's easiest.
Well, not everything is, is, is easy.
It's simple.
Um, but I also like new offers to
existing market or even to, to new market.
And sometimes those can be
like peripherals or peripheral
offerings that you already have.
And just as a side note, this is what
I've seen with clients and even in
my own business, that there's one.
of what, let's say you have 12
deliverables or 12 things you do.
There's one thing that is unique that
you share that to another market.
It's like, oh, that's really, really
interesting that it's actually more
valuable over here than you just do
that one thing to the new market.
But you don't usually
do that strategically.
We usually stumble upon that just by
networking or chatting with people.
You help them, like the founders that
you work with, do that strategically.
Walk me through the
Anastassia Laskey: Yeah, so
usually what's happened already
is what you just described.
Someone has stumbled into this.
Either they had, you know, a prospect come
in and they ended up selling to them even
though they weren't in the same, you know.
Industry that they were targeting or
there's some sort of, you know, something
unique like that happened, right?
And at some point someone says, wait a
minute, should we be doing this for real?
Like, should we just now go and actually
form some strategy and some campaigns
and some execution around doing this
for real, like this new offer to the
same market or this, uh, same offer to
a new market or something like that?
Um.
At that time, you know, teams,
founders are really at a crossroads
of how am I going to approach this?
What I see often, and it's not, and I,
and I just wanna be clear, I'm not saying
that this is a wrong approach, but this is
just a different approach than than mine.
Um, what I see often is folks
will go, oh, okay, well it
happened one time already, right?
I already had this conversation.
I'm just gonna do it, and then
I'll figure the rest out later.
Right?
And I'm fully.
I'm very, very, uh, a heck yes
for them to go and do that for the
first four or five sales, right?
Because that's going to prove and do
some scrappy stuff to just prove that
there is demand there in the market.
But where I sort of come in is to
say, okay, well, you already proved
that there was a bit of demand, or
you already proved that there is a
business case, let's just say to, to
actually explore this before you invest.
To the next, let's say 50,000, a hundred
thousand dollars, whatever that budget
might be, into building something out
and putting stuff out there in marketing.
Why don't we make sure we really, really
foundationally understand who it is
you're selling to and what it is you're
selling, and what is the language and
the positioning that you need to have
in order to do that very effectively.
And for me to help someone with
that, my approach is all about
understanding the market and
then applying what you learn to.
Filling in those gaps.
Raul: That's key.
So there's a few things here.
It, it's not just market expansion or
offer expansion, but there is either
horizontal or vertical deeper in the
market or new moving to new market.
how do you really cross and this
is the chasm you're crossing.
We're so busy for insights and
research, like how do we make it as
part of the habit of the organization
versus this thing that we have to do.
Anastassia Laskey: Yeah, so the first
thing that that we always do with clients
is make it simple, make it much simpler.
I think everyone in their head,
especially in a B2B context, people
are like, well, I have to talk to a
hundred people, or I gotta talk to
a thousand customers or something.
Honestly,
Raul: Oh
Anastassia Laskey: what you really
need to do in order to get enough
thematic evidence to start moving
is talk to like three to five.
People in the target market with
the right kinds of questions.
So if we can reduce the
size of the exercise down,
Raul: Mm-hmm.
Anastassia Laskey: we're able to get some
traction and get some movement faster,
and then we'll continue to fill that in
with additional, you know, interviewing
or other methodologies over time.
But really we're focused on just getting
a handful of of conversations going.
And usually we can get that done
in like a week, a week or two.
Raul: Wow.
So I like the speed to it.
And also now with deep research.
I had a gentleman on
the podcast a while ago.
He was at Revenue.
Uh, a revenue guy, and we talked
about this number, like how many
people do you need to talk to?
I, the number that I came to was
that around the 17th person or the
17th interview, you usually are
gonna have a high confidence score,
what the 18th of the 19th are,
and if you can, then you're done.
And he found that it was
around 12 to 15 as well.
But here you're just saying three to
four to get started, I think now because.
There's data of the wazoo, and then we
can actually capture that data easier.
Now with, uh, the call recorders,
the AI transcriptions, the summaries,
and the deep research, we probably
Anastassia Laskey: Yeah,
Raul: faster.
Anastassia Laskey: again, like
what we're trying to do, if we're
actually trying to build with speed
and we're trying to scale with speed
is we're trying to get more insight.
Than we had yesterday and we're trying to
build based on the insight we have today,
which is more than we had yesterday.
So we wanna start with like
three to five conversations,
and that gives us the thematic.
Information we need.
Plus we already had like few sales, right?
Or, or some sort of
Raul: Yeah.
Anastassia Laskey: signals.
So that counts towards our
sample size, if you will.
So we wanna bring all that together.
But what I see too often is folks
are like, well, I can't move forward
until I get that 17th call or
the 21st call, or whatever it is,
Raul: Oh.
Anastassia Laskey: and,
and I just wanna encourage.
Uh, folks to really think about how can I
do actions in parallel while really just
continuing to calibrate always around the
truth, the truth being what I'm hearing
in these calls and what I'm hearing in
these market conversations, what I'm
learning from like a deep research tool.
Um, but again, making sure you're,
I I would just say like, and we can
talk more if you want about, you know,
where and when to use the AI tools.
Making sure that you're, the first party
conversations that you had are the most
important thing that you're relying on.
Raul: Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Yeah, a lot of the, uh, the AI are
just there to please you, so they'll,
they'll tell you what you want to hear
Anastassia Laskey: Every business model
you throw in front of an AI is the
best business model it's ever heard of.
Just as a tip.
Raul: it's brilliant.
It's like, yeah.
It's like you wrote the
Anastassia Laskey: Yeah.
Raul: um.
Let's make this practical.
So some of the clients that I'm working
with and other prospective clients, like
we're moving to a new vertical, or we
wanna add an additional service to the
existing line of business to increase
profitability, LTV, the whole nine.
There's a multiple reasons why.
or even to just to double the company.
And I'm thinking of like a few case
studies or like real people that,
that are doing this right now.
It's, I mean, let's play tug of war here.
Like in some cases they're like, well,
we should just offer this service.
'cause it seems like we
could help them with that.
But I don't know, uh, others
are like, well, we already
do this really, really well.
Let's just sell us to another
market that needs this because
we can do it really, really well.
How, how do we actually strategically
think about that to avoid the pitfalls and
maybe even share what are the crocodiles
hanging under us if we don't do this
Anastassia Laskey: For sure.
So I would just say the, the time
that you invest in validating
these two potential routes is very,
very, very valuable time spent.
And the pitfall is that folks
kind of gloss over it or they.
They're very smart business people
and they're like, oh, if I just wrote
a document that kind of articulates
the different paths and I just choose,
choose one, like I'm good, right?
And, and in reality, what I see work
very well is when folks can write down
or kind of structure out what they're
considering and then go through a
process where they invest a little
bit more time in validating that path.
Now, how do you validate that path?
One is making sure you're talking to
the right people that are actually
a member of the market that you're
considering or that you're currently in.
Sometimes we might go for who's
easiest for us to call, or we
might go to a colleague or somebody
like that, but we need to really.
Truly vet that person's like
LinkedIn profile versus what we've
written down as our, you know,
our ICP and our buyer persona.
Is it a fit for the call?
If it's a fit, great.
Um, but making sure that we're
actually talking to the right people.
And then the next thing is what
is the information you're trying
to learn in the call that's gonna
help you make this decision?
One is.
What are the pain points that the
market tells you that they have?
Again, not what you already have sort
of observed from your current client
interactions, because sometimes you're
not actually getting insight and you
don't actually see a lot of what their
business problems actually are 'cause
you're just working on one part of it.
So really understanding at that
higher level, what are the problems
that that, that organization
and that that stakeholder has.
And then two, what is the
outcome that they wanna have?
If they could wave a magic wand.
What would it be that they would change
or what would they see different?
Um, you know, a year in the
future, six months in the future.
Um, and then you also wanna
understand what are they doing
right now to explore solving this?
Or what are they doing right
now to solve it, right?
Like, no one just likes
to sit with problems.
Your clients are probably, your
markets are probably doing something.
It may be ineffective, but
they're doing something.
Those three pieces of information.
Allow you to really triangulate
around a few things.
One is, what is the right offer for
me to, to deliver and to to whom?
Right?
Some markets you talk to, they
might have pain, but they're
actually gonna solve it themselves.
And so there's no place for a solution.
Um, some markets might be.
Uh, like, wow, I need a solution.
But it's not that urgent.
It's not that painful.
Right.
So those are some of the things
you're learning is like, is
there a need for a solution?
And then two is if there is a need for a
solution, what is the way I need to talk
about it in the language of that market?
Raul: Yeah.
Anastassia Laskey: how I talk to
accounting firms about my whatever B2B
service that I offer them may be very
different in the true like words that are
used than talking to lawyers, for example.
Even though it's the same
solution I'm offering, it's
the same problem I'm solving.
I may need to have different language
and these kind of conversations
that you use will, they will help
you understand that language.
Raul: And it's also like
the decision maker too.
Like if you're talking to the
Anastassia Laskey: Mm-hmm.
Raul: or the operator or the
Anastassia Laskey: Yeah.
Raul: completely different,
completely different pitch stacks.
Like it, it really depends on the
Anastassia Laskey: Mm-hmm.
Raul: Um.
you also focus like on, and this is like
a, a jaded term, but buyer's journey.
When I define buyer's journey, I
think you kind of alluded to it,
is what are they currently doing?
When does your service or solution
become important and what are the
measurable things that matter, uh, that
you can measure in, in, in the market
that you have a higher likelihood
of your services being valuable
Anastassia Laskey: Mm-hmm.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Those are all very important things and,
and you're really trying to understand.
I mean, this, this, to me, these
interviews are really ultimately about
an act of empathy where you're trying
to put yourself in the shoes of your
market or this potential market, and
you're really trying to understand
everything you possibly can about
how they operate and function in the
world that they live in right now.
Um, so anything you can get into
about, you know, what their decision
making process is, what their, um.
What, what, what the moments in the
business or in the market are that are
gonna trigger a need for your service
or a more likelihood to consider your
service or even indifference to what
they're currently using as a solution.
Right?
How can you kind of influence that?
Um, those are all really important parts.
Raul: No, I like that.
So we get, we do the, is that the
only data source through interviews
or are there additional data
sources that we should be looking
Anastassia Laskey: Yeah, so for
me it depends on the size of the
organization, like how I recommend
they implement this methodology.
If they're on the more small, nimble side,
I'd rather see them use interviews and
then continue to layer in insights that
might come from industry reports that
might come from, you know, conferences.
Some of the bigger players in their
space are honestly probably investing.
5,000 thousand dollars or more into
research projects that are being
shared, you know, publicly in some way.
So that, that's a great place to get,
uh, resources if you're still kind of
in that, that small and scrappy phase.
As organizations get bigger, there's a lot
that they can do to gain this information
through, um, through other methodologies
like a survey or like some sort of a.
You know, following, like shadowing
someone you know, through their daily
work or things like that, right?
But, um, I'm always looking at
what's the minimum effort and
cost for the maximum reward.
And in the B2B context, interviews
seem to be pretty quick and easy.
Raul: Nice.
Do you ever do like,
uh, paid ads for survey?
I, I remember listening to,
uh, to a founder when they were
gonna launch a new product.
They just ran, paid ads and then
surveyed the market and then from
there analyzed which ones were the most
responsive, which angles and hooks.
Do you ever do anything like that?
Anastassia Laskey: We've definitely done
stuff like that with clients for sure.
Yeah,
Raul: Okay.
So paid ads is a, is a mechanism,
but it all comes back to user
Anastassia Laskey: yeah,
Raul: Regar,
Anastassia Laskey: yeah.
Raul: the, the, the main source of truth,
user feedback, the angles of attack.
Talking to
Anastassia Laskey: Right.
Raul: them, paid
Anastassia Laskey: Yeah.
What I'm always saying to clients
is like, you need to get in
front of this X kind of person.
Right.
So how, what is the best
way for you to do that?
Is it going through your network?
Usually that's fast because.
People are very connected
in their industry, right.
But to be fair, you know, when
we have clients who are trying
to do this big leap, which is new
offer, new audience, we're going
usually outside of who they know.
Or it might be kind of these like third
degree connections or something like that.
And in that case, like often there
are tools that you can use, like you
can, there's services like Bridger,
um, and what they will do is like
connect you with any sort of B2B.
Audience member, it's a few
hundred dollars per interview,
but they can get that done.
You can call 'em on a Monday.
You'll have calls on your
calendar by like Thursday, Friday.
So there's services out there too
that can help you connect, you know,
with a, a particular market for a
longer format interview, or even
do surveys and stuff through them.
But, you know, the, just surveys versus,
you know, an interview for the type
of information that you need to learn.
To successfully enable your marketing,
you know, a survey, it, it, it isn't
always the right thing to do unless you've
already done some interviews because how
would you know what answer options to
give to all the questions in the survey?
You wouldn't yet have that insight.
Raul: Yeah.
You have to have the dialogue.
Anastassia Laskey: Yeah.
Raul: their, their
Anastassia Laskey: Mm-hmm.
Raul: um.
This is fascinating.
So you have this quadrant, like,
do you have this as a quadrant?
It sounds like it's a
Anastassia Laskey: Yeah.
Yeah.
Raul: Same, same market, same.
Uh, new product, same markets,
Anastassia Laskey: Mm-hmm.
Raul: uh, new.
Same product.
New market, new,
Anastassia Laskey: Yeah,
Raul: And then the new new, is always
Anastassia Laskey: the new
Raul: Okay.
Anastassia Laskey: news.
I try to dissuade people honestly
from, from going there because
Raul: wow.
Okay.
Let's go.
Anastassia Laskey: Yeah, because
like what it, I, I always need to dig
into the reason behind that, right?
And sometimes there is a valid
reason, but a lot of times it can
be shiny object syndrome slash
like, really like, oh my gosh.
Like I had this random conversation
when I was on vacation in the airport
with this guy and then like, he wants
to buy my thing and a new thing.
And, and, and I get that.
Like, I'm like that as a person.
So it's kind of like.
Raul: Yeah.
Anastassia Laskey: I wanna actually,
when I have a client that wants
to do that, we need to really
understand what is the strategic
basis for you making that decision?
Is it that you have absolutely no
revenue because your target market
just disappeared overnight because
of some market factor and your offer
is now no longer Totally relevant.
Okay, great.
Now we're doing new, new, um, we don't
have another choice, but the ideal path
would actually be, if you wanna end up
with that new market, new offer, could
we find a way to take a current offer?
To a new, to a new market, or could
we find a way to take a new offer
to the same market, you know, and
move our way around the quadrant.
Do you see what I'm saying?
Raul: Yeah, so map it.
Anastassia Laskey: that's a better way.
Like it takes longer, but you make
a lot more revenue in the process
and you have a lot less risk.
Raul: Anna, I didn't even look.
Do you have a book around that?
'cause that that should be like the guide.
Anastassia Laskey: should write that.
That's a good idea.
Raul: No.
Seriously.
Anastassia Laskey: Yeah.
Raul: a great, I mean, the guide to get to
New, new, if you ever want to get to New,
Anastassia Laskey: Yeah, no, I'm gonna, I
like, I, we, I use this thinking all the
time, but I haven't put it into like a
book format, so I would love to do that.
Raul: It needs to be like a journey
or a roadmap or like a visual or like
some sort of mind map or infographic,
like traveling, traversing the path
and depending on where you're at in
revenue and your team size and the goals.
Because what, that's what I've seen
in real life, like from my experience
with the companies or the businesses
and clients that I've worked with.
It's tangent, like a splinter
of their main offers.
Like, oh, we gotta offer
this thing now, and that.
becomes the new offer.
And that might, might be
a distraction or you're.
I, I remember I talked to a guy
out of not buying a company because
like, dude, this is a distraction.
'cause that market is not our ideal
Anastassia Laskey: Right.
Yeah, exactly.
Raul: there's, there's all
Anastassia Laskey: Yeah.
Raul: all these,
Anastassia Laskey: Yeah.
Raul: you gotta write the book.
I'll, I'll hold you accountable
Anastassia Laskey: Okay, great.
I'm ready.
Raul: Oh, well you better just do it.
No, that, that, that's, um.
That's really helpful.
Is there anything that changes?
You mentioned a like Bridger or one of the
services, but as I've traversed down this,
this journey of market expansion or offer
expansion, are there different tool sets,
skill sets, activities that change, or is
it typically the same across the board?
Anastassia Laskey: I would say the
goal of this entire thing is to gain
enough insight to get something that is.
Gonna be much better than it
would've been otherwise into the
market as fast as we possibly can.
So if what we wanna do is explore over
the course of two weeks, a particular
market to understand whether let's just
take the, the same market, new, new offer.
Let's, let's just do.
S like several interviews over the
course of a week with our current
market, both customers and prospects.
Let's learn from that.
And again, I think the way you
interpret that one, the questions
you ask need to be dialed in.
And then the way you interpret that needs
to be very precise and already agreed
in advance how you're going to interpret
it so that we don't end up in this
like boondoggle, like often left field.
Now we should pivot to this
other direction kind of a thing.
Um.
Once you get that interpretation, my goal
with clients is within two to three weeks
of doing this, they're moving in the
market with some sort of testing, right?
So we're either testing ads, we're
testing actual offers with the market.
Um, in sales calls, we're testing,
we're trying to actually close some
deals because the best evidence
that there's viability is a, a
sale and actually like three.
Raul: with your dollars.
Anastassia Laskey: Right,
like 3, 4, 5 sales.
Right?
So if we're not able to get to
a sale, then we need to look
at why that's not working.
Again, trying to break this into like
two weeks of research, two weeks of
marketing experiments of some sort and
sales experiments, and then a, a week
of kind of learning from that iterating
and then moving into our next plan.
That plan may be, well, we
learned that the reason that
people aren't buying is X, Y, Z.
So therefore we go back to our
quadrant and we start to say,
okay, well is it a different offer?
Is it a different audience?
You know, we kind of go back to that.
Or if something is working, how
do we make that work even better?
And then how do we think
about scaling that?
So that's sort of the very iterative
approach that I'm taking with clients.
Raul: The six week journey
to market expansion.
Anastassia Laskey: Yeah.
Raul: the
Anastassia Laskey: There we go.
Raul: That's good.
No, no, that's, that's really helpful.
So you condense the time, the
activities change, but the whole
goal is to get the real outcome.
Can we sell this?
Is the messaging working?
Then there's the obviously
iterative approach.
but I, I really, I really like framing
this idea into simple quadrants
because there's, it's usually Z.
just jump go
Anastassia Laskey: Yeah,
Raul: without doing these steps
Anastassia Laskey: yeah,
Raul: the effort and the inside.
And I think the cost, it sounds
like it's really like you can
do, like teams can do this.
It's probably gonna be more
expensive to fail at this than to,
Anastassia Laskey: yeah.
Raul: to invest in doing this.
Um, you mentioned, and this will we'll
shift gears here, but you mentioned
that in your own journey you valued
or you benefited highly from self
insight just as much as, and you,
you, you value your self insight.
Just as much or even
more than market insight.
Can you help elaborate on
Anastassia Laskey: Yeah, for sure.
So something that I have noticed,
just being in the business of
understanding humans, right?
Like I come from a market
research background, um,
Raul: Mm-hmm.
Anastassia Laskey: that.
I can, I can understand someone else
pretty easily, but sometimes it's
hard to understand myself or it was
before I made this into a practice.
Hard to understand myself.
And I think, I see this in clients all
the time too, where let's say we get
some insights back from, you know, they
went and talked to a bunch of people
and my clients don't like what they
heard, like they just, emotionally,
they don't like what they heard.
Raul: Yeah.
Anastassia Laskey: And,
and I've been in that.
Seat two for my own
business, believe me, right?
Like, I didn't like what I heard and
what I've realized through my own
journey around self insight and what
I try to bring to clients is when we
don't like what we hear, we need to
go inward and figure out why, right?
Because there's, there's oftentimes
something that's within us from our
experiences or from how we see things, or
a belief, or, you know, a behavior that
we've been doing unconsciously, but that
we get the opportunity to look at now.
Now that we've had this experience of
not feeling so great about something.
Um, and that's, I think a big part
that's often missed in the process of, of
marketing and in selling is we're sort of
pushing that stuff to the side and we're
focusing very much on like the numbers
and the data and the sales and the leads
and the tactics and the strategy, and in
fact, how figuring out how to grow one's
own self insight and then apply that.
It creates a lot more opportunity
for you as a person to just have
a different experience, right?
Raul: Sometimes we get bogged down
with the day-to-day activities and
not slowing down to understand why.
I think that's one of the critical
things in, in, in my humble opinion,
why communication is probably the most
important skillset in all humanity, like
communicating with oneself, with others.
And also here marketing, I
mean, to make a sale, to make
the business a revenue chime.
But that's very powerful and I
think doing the inner work is going
to radically transform the outer
work, regardless of what's going on.
So I appreciate you sharing that.
Uh, Ana, for our audience listening
out there, what's the best place that
people can thank you for being on
Anastassia Laskey: for sure.
Folks can go to Anna Bio Aana, do
B, and on that site there's all
sorts of cool links, um, to, for
you to add me on LinkedIn, check
out, you know, our company, see
all the other things I'm up to.
And uh, eventually I think
there's gonna be a link to a book.
Raul, thank you for that.
Um, it'll be on Anna, do bio.
Raul: Don't come to the podcast
if you don't wanna do work.
Thanks you.
No, Anna, you've been awesome.
Thank you so much.
And we'll put all those
links in the show notes.
We'll take it from here.
Anastassia Laskey: Thank you.
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