The Table in the Latino Culture and Church with Alex Mandes

Show Notes

In this episode, I have a conversation with Alex Mandes, who has worked extensively with churches to help them embrace the multi-cultural reality all around them. We especially focus on the nature of meals within Latino culture (which is naturally diverse in and of itself), while also talking about Jesus on the margins.

 

Alex Mandes is a leader within the multicultural churches. He has worked with the Evangelical Free Church of America, and has also trained thousands of Latino pastors. He is the author of Embracing the New Samaria.

What is The Biggest Table?

This podcast is an avenue to dialogue about the totality of the food experience. Everything from gardening, to preparing, to eating, to hospitality, to the Lord’s Table, with an eye toward how this act that we all have to engage in helps us experience the transformative power of God’s love and what it means to be human.

The Biggest Table--Episode 03 (Alex Mandes)
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Andrew Camp: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Biggest Table. I am your host, Andrew Camp. And the idea behind this podcast is to explore the table, food, eating, and hospitality as an arena for experiencing God's love and our love for one another. And today I'm thrilled to welcome Alex Mendez as my guest.

And so welcome, Alex. Uh, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you're up to these days?

Alex Mandes: Sure.

Um, so, I, uh, just, uh, finished one job and starting to work on another project, but in the past I've, uh, planted churches, uh, three on my own, and have mentored in quite a few others. I have created a non formal theological training for immigrants who...

May not be able to afford or speak the language, but need the equipping as, uh, pastors and leaders, uh, has been quite successful, about a hundred, [00:01:00] uh, fifteen hundred have gone through that. Uh, I've created, uh, church planting training, mostly for Spanish speakers. Um, I speak quite often at conferences. One of my favorite ones is the multi ethnic conference, uh, that happens every three years.

With Mark DeMoss, um, uh, my great passion is making disciples and, uh, uh, planting churches, particularly, um, multi ethnic, and, uh, because of great need now, and it's really multiplying, it's, uh, Spanish speaking. I have, uh, five daughters, 15 grandchildren. I live in San Antonio. And, uh, I love to read and study.

I have a couple of master's degrees. Uh, and a doctoral degree, uh, and I'm rooting for, uh, the University of Texas Longhorns.

Andrew Camp: Awesome. Yeah. No, thanks, Alex. And I first became aware of you, uh, when I was working at Mountain Life Church in Park City as we were, [00:02:00] uh, embracing the multi ethnic, um, and we had a few couples that were, um, from Spanish speaking countries and were wanting to Start a Spanish speaking service and so through your efforts with the free church, um, you know, it was quite successful and through that, we, my wife and I became, have become good friends with Ruben and Aurelius Navarrete, who I think you're...

Good

Alex Mandes: buddies. Yep.

Andrew Camp: Yep. And then Alex Rivero. Um, and so, no, I have really appreciated what you did, um, to help, um, Spread that, and to help EV free churches become multi ethnic. Um, and so, no, I really appreciate you being on this. And so, as we begin, um, how has the table and food factored into your journey, both spiritually and just who you are as a person?

Alex Mandes: You know, those things really merge together because, uh, food and fellowship just go together in my culture. Um, you know, it's kind of, uh, I was raised in Laredo and, uh, we never [00:03:00] figured out portions. We just always made sure we had more than enough for the people that we knew we would invite at the last minute.

And whatever we had is what they got, or there was a tortilla and butter they could have over there. But for us, it just flowed. I mean, our family reunions. We're up in the hundred, uh, two hundred, two hundred and fifty people. Um, of course, uh, more Catholic back then, so they would send a Catholic priest to make sure we didn't get too far out of line.

And, uh, even as, uh, as a pastor, we always made sure that, uh, we were reaching out for people that didn't have somewhere else to go. Thanksgiving would usually turn into a twenty five to thirty people. Uh, now that I'm not pastoring, my daughters do the same thing. In fact, uh, two of them were recently tapped on the shoulders to help their churches or organizations organize the hospitality, and, and they said, well, dad, uh, being a [00:04:00] pastor's daughter certainly, uh, prepared us for that role.

So food and fellowship really do go hand in hand. I can't think of a time when we don't sit down for coffee or a meal or something like that. They, they just, um, connect souls.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, and it seems to be a bigger priority in the Latino culture and so

Alex Mandes: Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, I'm in a church, uh, that I helped start here in San Antonio, a second language service like the one you're in.

And, uh, when I took my role with the Evangelical Free Church, they said I couldn't pastor, uh, because of all the travel. So I went to a church that was close by my house, which was only English speaking. And all around the church was about 50 percent Spanish speakers, and so working together, we helped start a second language service, and as I did with Ruben, one of my jobs was moving the right people to the right places, and brought a [00:05:00] great Chilean guy here from Minnesota.

And it was interesting because the church I was going to said one of their high values was relationship, and um, And yet church was cleared out with five to ten minutes. So the Hispanic church got started and they make a joke that everything is about food. And, uh, you know, church would go on 20, 30, 40 minutes afterwards.

And after a while, the English speakers started drifting over our way wondering what was going on. And there was plenty of food. And if there wasn't enough, nobody made a deal out of it. We just kind of portioned it out or put some more water in the soup. And And, uh, after a while the English speakers started noting there was quite a difference of culture.

Even though we were technically one church, um, uh, and, and, uh, a lot of things happened around that. And it [00:06:00] really helped the other church. It's one church, but it really helped the English speaking church realize the value of it. So when they did a remodel, they put a huge state of the art kitchen and they put it closer to the Hispanic congregation.

Andrew Camp: That's awesome.

Alex Mandes: And they do a lot of the cooking and a lot of the I mean, there's always something going on.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. So you've seen the table break down barriers then.

Alex Mandes: Oh,

absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, um, and then

Alex Mandes: there's professional about nothing. Nothing. No, it is just what people would make it home and eat it home And they just happen to make it a church or bring it from home and make it there So there's not a whole lot of drama about who's gonna bring what

Andrew Camp: they

just make it happen

Alex Mandes: Organic for

real.

Andrew Camp: No for sure. Yeah. No and Yeah, it's just The Latino culture [00:07:00] just seems to want to invite this hospitality and this generous welcoming to the table.

Alex Mandes: Or take it to

them, or take it to people, you know, there's not a, there's not a, uh, a chain, what, I don't know what food chain or something like that. They just, everybody just kind of takes care of it.

There's not a, who's going to take care of that person. It just. gets done and, um, very organically, very lovingly, uh, not professionally. Uh, it's just like what a an uncle or an aunt or a relative would take, uh, to another uncle or aunt that would take care of them. And it's not just the food. I mean, uh, you know, they talk about the five love languages, the sixth one in the Hispanic culture is food.

Andrew Camp: No. Um, and that's beautiful. And I love how you're murder for

Alex Mandes: me. I was the national director for Hispanic ministry and everybody and their [00:08:00] mother thought I should be eating their food, man. It took me, I mean, I put on weight before I started saying, Oh man, I'm not feeling so good or something like that.

But. I knew they were, they knew I was not being truthful, but, you know, it doesn't matter how much you eat, it's that you sit down. It's not even about the food, uh, it's that you sit down and, um, and it's what happens when you're sitting down. Uh, you know, I, I, I one time read about this pastor, Andrew, who, um, he did a lot of visitation and everybody wondered how he got so much in.

He said, well, I've learned, I just, when I walk in, and this was a formal, long time ago, I make sure I take off my jacket and put it across the chair. And then I'm gone in ten minutes. And people never realize that I was just there for a little bit of time. Because when I was [00:09:00] there, I was in the moment. So, um, yeah, so food and culture and, you know, being a, yeah, so I probably need to quit talking and let you...

Andrew Camp: No, no, I love it. I love that, you know, you've mentioned that it's not about the food, but it's just about sitting down, um, and seeing each other. Um, which I feel like is so rare in, in today's culture.

Alex Mandes: Well,

so, excuse me for monopolizing your time. No. But the funny thing about it is, um, you know, when I hear about Latino culture or Hispanic culture, I have a little bit of, uh, education at times that I feel like I need to do because, you know, when an immigrant, when a Mexican or a Chilean or, you know, a Venezuelan comes to America, they're not Hispanic and they're not Latino.

Okay. They're Venezuelan, they're [00:10:00] Mexican, they're Puerto Rican, they're this, that or the other. And so, you know, when America calls them Latinos, Puerto, you know, in our mind, we kind of filter that and say, okay, I'm not going to correct them again. Um, So, you know, when we sit down together as a meal at church, we have an opportunity to flavor international.

Yeah. I mean, uh, you know, Microsoft Word has 10 dictionaries. Yeah. For Spanish. And so when it comes to food, there's, you know, Venezuelan food, there's Mexican food, there's Chilean food, you know. And, uh, so it's actually not only good fellowship, but it's, uh, an experience. So, um, I'm, you know, everybody's always wondering what I am because I speak English so well and Spanish and, and, um, you know, my mom was, um, uh, Texican.

My father was Puerto Rican. [00:11:00] Uh, so I, uh, am, I enjoy it all. Not only the food, but it's, uh, the culture, because food speaks of culture. Mm. Mm hmm. Uh, food speaks of culture, and, and, uh, as I said, it's the sixth love language for, um, we'll go ahead and use the term Hispanic, uh, Latino. Uh, but yeah, it's... It is a lovely thing.

No, it is. They recently threw me a birthday, a retirement party and surprised me and it was amazing. A little bit of this and that and the other and then I'm, when I think I've had enough, then they throw in mariachis. Awesome. And these are not rich people, okay? Right. But fellowship just means a whole lot, and I think they would have thrown a party.

My, my, my, my changing of jobs was just an excuse. An excuse.

Andrew Camp: Any excuse to throw a [00:12:00] party and to get food on the table.

Alex Mandes: Any excuse. And they don't worry about is, is everything perfect? You know, it's sometimes perfect kills, uh, a good thing.

Andrew Camp: No, for sure. We're so worried about getting everything just right that we miss.

The opportunity. Yeah, but I love what you said that, you know, Latino culture, we just sort of lump it all together as white Anglo people. Um, so how, how do we invite that curiosity then? Like, how, how can we. When we're sitting across, invite curiosity versus fear or generalization, do you think?

Alex Mandes: Well, I think, um, I think one of the things that, uh, this is one of the areas where some things are better caught than taught.

I think if you were to ask a Latino, how do you do that, they'd probably be mystified wondering what are you talking [00:13:00] about? It's kind of the water that they swim in is a fish. And they just know it and see it so much, but maybe because I've gone between cultures, I know what you're talking about, but maybe the best way to answer that would be remembering it's better caught than taught, was what I have mentioned before when the English speaking congregation started seeing, um, the Spanish congregation.

At first, they would complain about the mess. The door's open. Who's going to clean this? And then after a while, they started looking beyond those concerns, which are legitimate concerns. Wow, these people are having fun. Uh, wow, these people didn't take the time to put it on the calendar four weeks ago.

These, oh, wow, these people, uh, are staying around a long time. They're not scheduling a fellowship group with a purpose and a mission [00:14:00] and a vision. I mean, these guys are just making it happen. So I think one of the ways is just kind of modeling it. Uh, sometimes you need training wheels. Before you can ride on a bike, if you know what I mean.

Uh, so sometimes it's just, uh, you know, having people over and say, Hey, let's, uh, let's do this together. And, and then as people step back, they kind of, they kind of do autopsy. You know, they do an autopsy. Okay. Uh, uh, how did they do this? Well, first of all, it's from the heart. Second of all, it's to be a blessing.

A third of all, they're living life together, because at those meals, they're not just talking about the food. Mm mm. They're talking about the struggles of life. They're talking about, uh, their children, their relatives stuck in Venezuela. [00:15:00] Uh, they're talking about, uh, their cars and their schools and their children and, and the struggles of life.

So, in a way, in order to learn that, because it's not strategy, goal, vision, it's culture. And you've heard that saying, culture eats strategy for breakfast every morning. Some of those things you have to just sit and soak up before you can walk away and analyze it and reproduce it. Um, or you can get really creative.

Empower the Hispanics to do it and give them a budget and shut up. Shut up and let them do it and, uh, and empower them. And, uh, you know, and so. You know, I think it's just [00:16:00] really one of those things where you can't just take apart and strategize and reproduce because you'll do it wrong because you won't get it from the heart.

You'll try to micromanage it by the minute. I mean, I've spoken at churches that would have three services, and I mean, they would give me this minute by minute, half minute schedule. And when you're going to do something, uh, like Fellowship with Neil with Hispanics, the last thing you want to be worried about is when does it start and when does it finish?

Uh, so we're actually talking about culture change. Mm. It's not something that you can write up in a book and do. Now, I want to tell you, uh, Hispanics aren't the only ones that have this as a cultural value. I mean, uh, Hispanics and African Americans are so alike when it comes to that. In fact, one of the things that's really interesting because, uh, I mean, uh, uh, social work background and cultural [00:17:00] anthropologists sort of, I've been amazed how when I go to other cultures, Uh, there's a lot of similarity in their food.

I mean, African Americans eat, uh, oxtail, and they have chitlings, and actually Hispanics have a lot of the same. I mean, they call it chitlings, we call it, uh, chicharrones. And they're both tasty. And they're both tasty, and, you know, half of the fun is just cooking it together. Yeah. So. Um, I think one of the hard parts about, uh, our, uh, our majority culture is wanting to understand and reproduce before they've felt and appreciated.

And, and maybe in some ways it's better to empower or just bring the church over here and do it with us. But, um, there's a lot of other cultures, and I'm, I'm, I would say that it's in Anglo culture [00:18:00] also, English speaking culture also. So, you know, my, uh, I've been around other, you know, families of our own that are just as welcoming, just as focused on food.

Um, so I, I think, uh, I think so much of, uh, what happens nowadays is people want to reproduce without really understanding or valuing, and, uh, uh, and I think it's in other cultures also, I mean, African American culture, it's step for step, step for step, just right there with, uh, Hispanics, and I have a feeling Asian cultures are the same thing.

Yeah. So I think, uh, I think, uh, the part about reproducing it is, um, making sure that people are really understanding the cultural rather than the food component. Hmm. You know, what's going on around the table, not being rushed, [00:19:00] uh, empowering other people to lead until you understand. You can't reproduce what you don't value and understand.

Oh. Well, you can. You, you, you can. You may not get the same outcome. No. No.

Andrew Camp: No. But it's that invitation. to the table, and letting them teach us as Anglos. Yeah,

Alex Mandes: you know, it's the strategy, I do you watch. Yeah. Uh, you do I watch, and then you go do the same with somebody else, I mean. But when it comes to food, it's, it's something more akin to reaching the soul, you know.

Uh, the way to a person's, uh, man's heart is through the stomach. Well, I think the way to people's soul. Is through their stomach. But it's not just the food, it's the time that people give. It's the, I'm not rushing you [00:20:00] thing. It's, uh, I've taken from my stuff and given to you and I'm gonna enjoy your stuff and we'll sit down together and you will have the Puerto Rican rice and you can bring, um, the chitlins and.

Heck, if there's not enough protein, or if there's not enough bread, or if there's not enough of this, that, or the other, at least we had a meal together that was good. So, I have rarely seen... Okay, I may not see at all that they actually plan these things all out. And so, yeah, so, uh, in fact, it kind of would scare me if it was true.

Right. Our church just celebrated their I think it was the ninth anniversary and they did something that was really, really weird. They hired [00:21:00] a cater. It was a street truck guy who did a great job when it came to the food. You could have thought that he was one of the relatives of somebody, but, uh, And everybody was invited.

A lot of people from the English church came. So they, they overbought. They set out a lot of tables. So the culture part was the same, even though the food, uh, wasn't from them. I really think it's about what's going on around the food and that people are giving then, uh, then, uh, a lot of other things. I really, you know, when people sit together, it's not, they're not looking at their watches.

They're not, uh, they're, yeah, it's, it's not a watch thing. It's, it's, yeah.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, I know it's it's about Everybody bringing a piece of who they are to this table

Alex Mandes: and the kids are everywhere, right? I mean, there's not a babysitter [00:22:00] and some people's kids are sitting at other table with other people because their kids are there and the people at that table are taking care of those kids and Um, there's a lot of, uh, co parenting going on, there's a lot of, uh, yeah, so there's, I think the, I can't, I guess I'm kind of rambling, but it's kind of exciting to me to think about it.

No, it

Andrew Camp: is. And that there's sort of this beautiful chaos that ensues when When cultures gather,

Alex Mandes: I think that really, I mean, we're not expecting perfection. Uh, we would be very surprised if somebody would say, okay, we've been here 45 or 59 minutes and 59 seconds time for everybody to go

and even the cleanup is done together. So, it's a committee sometimes doesn't work. Uh, Sometimes it's great. I mean, I think I, I certainly believe in organization and administration, [00:23:00] but when it comes to food and fellowship, it's one of those things that you've got to be very careful to not overmanage.

Yeah. Now, maybe in big churches, really. I mean, when we're talking about Hispanic churches, we're talking about 100, 200, 300. You start talking about large congregations. Um, and any, and it's, it's a economy of scale kind of gets messed up. No,

Andrew Camp: it does. Yeah. The, the bigger the crowd, the harder. Yeah. The harder it is, um, in some respects,

Alex Mandes: it doesn't mean it can't be done.

It just means it's a different animal. It is, no. But most, uh, congregations in America are the site of Hispanics. I mean, Hispanic congregations may be smaller, actually, but the normal church in America today is 100 to 200. I mean, the big churches, that's another thing altogether. No, yeah, and here's the other thing.

Uh, Andrew, it doesn't end at the [00:24:00] table. A lot of conversations happen that kind of go into other things. I mean, I was having breakfast with a man today who's been having a horrible time with his car. Uh, I mean, really, really horrible, and he has to do the work himself, and he was just telling me about, Oh, this other guy is helping me, and this other guy, and we started talking over a meal, and, You know, we've been working on this.

I'm almost become a project. I almost wonder if it's going to be any good. I mean, I wonder if it's going to, I almost want them not to be able to fix the car. Although it needs to be fixed. But they've been having too much fun that started over a meal, working on a car together. Wow. So yeah, finish with the meal or the meeting.

Andrew Camp: No, it just spills over. The shared life isn't just at the table. It's, it's pervasive. Yeah. Whereas it feels sometimes, you know, being in the white evangelical church my whole life, which I'm, [00:25:00] I'm thankful for my heritage, but it's a lot of the spiritual activities feel very compartmentalized or even the relationships where it's like, okay, we do Sunday and then we do small group together.

But, you know,

Alex Mandes: those things need to happen. They do. I think, I mean, it's not either or, it can be both and.

Andrew Camp: Right. But to make sure that it's, that those relationships then extend beyond just the spiritual quote unquote activities that we engage in together. I totally

Alex Mandes: agree with that.

Andrew Camp: So yeah, and you've talked a lot in, you know, our conversation has centered around this, of sort of embracing this, your book is called Embracing the New Samaria, you know, and it's embracing this idea that cultural diversity is right in front of us.

If we open our eyes.

Alex Mandes: Right. That's what the book started with, uh, um, Women at the Well, where Jesus says, Open your eyes and look on the [00:26:00] harvest. Hmm. Cultural diversity, yeah. I'm sorry, I interrupted you.

Andrew Camp: No, no, and it's great, and that's what, you know, we're faced with this new reality, um, which I think is a beautiful reality, um, but it seems that some people want to capitalize more on the fear of this new reality versus the beauty and, and the embracing of it.

And so how, how do we move towards the embracing of this reality? Well,

Alex Mandes: I think it begins with, uh, the very beginning passage of the book, uh, John chapter four, open your eyes and look on the harvest. Sometimes the workers are in the harvest. America is going through major, major changes. And, um, let me just call it, move from Hispanic ministry to, um, refugees, immigrants, ethnic groups, what I will call New Samaria.

It's happening in the margins. [00:27:00] So many of our churches, um, you know, are, Neighborhoods are changing. Some churches get big. They sell their building and they move to the North 40. And then there's a bunch of churches. Many, many churches that are, neighborhoods are changing around them. And they drive into the neighborhood because they live outside the neighborhood.

Some churches are deciding, well, I don't want to leave. And I want to, um, reach this neighborhood. So, I think Andrew, part of it is making that decision Do we want to embrace the changes that are going on around us? And, uh, actually, food is a great way to do that. Uh, welcoming people that are around you are a lot like that.

Uh, and empowering them and asking them, how do, can you help us reach your neighbors, [00:28:00] our neighbors? Um, and so, you know, a lot of times, uh, those, Uh, outliers, like the woman at the well. The woman at the well was an outlier. Uh, disciples went into the city, uh, in John chapter 4, and they came back with bologna, chips, sandwiches, uh, and, uh, they didn't bring anybody from the city.

The outlier, the woman at the well, was saved and went into the city and brought the people from the city. I think sometimes, um, there's going to be outliers in our communities, and that we'll go to at churches, and we'll be curious, and, you know, I think if we made a concerted effort to make sure that our church, first of all, is headed in the right direction in terms of welcoming.

Because a lot of times, uh, Samaritans have, uh, double consciousness. They, uh, may not speak the language as [00:29:00] well, and they might be bicultural, and so they're very attuned to, um, we're not wanted here. Uh, and, uh, I'm not saying their double consciousness is accurate all the time, but a little bit of, uh, a fly in the ointment ruins the whole perfume.

So if the church doesn't really have their head on straight in terms of that they do want to reach the changing neighborhood, if they don't, if they're not on board with that, if there's not a value and a missional strategy and a desire, uh, then when the woman at the well comes, instead of treating like Jesus, we'll treat them like the disciples.

Why are you talking to her? Right. Yeah. And, and she returned the favor by saying, Why are you talking to me? Right. Yeah. I mean, the missionary mentality is what Jesus said, Hey, give me a drink, uh, and, uh, she tries to rebuff him, and he says, Well, I can give you eternal life. I mean, he wasn't going to be turned away.

He kept on coming, and even though he made some, uh, [00:30:00] culturally, quote unquote, faux pas, he just kept on going. And so part of it is one having our head straight that we want to reach this neighborhood and people that don't want to, it would be best if they didn't hang around. And I think sometimes because churches aren't clear about what they want to do, the whole congregation is in shock when we invite a Samaritan into the church.

You know, they smoke, they cuss, they do all these other things, but you know what? They're looking for love in all the right places, and that should be in the church. So, I think number one is for the church to be self aware enough to know what's going on around them. And so, as a side note from that, to know what's happening in your neighborhood, uh, you don't have to do a census.

You don't [00:31:00] really have to go to the Census Bureau. You know, the best way to figure out what's happening in your neighborhood is check out the local high school demographics. It will shock people, because that's where, that's where you'll really know what your neighborhood is. Second one is, go to your local grocery store, because those guys are in it for money.

They're going to get what people want to buy. So just go to your international, I mean, my neighborhood over here, we go to the grocery store, there's about... A hundred different versions of hot sauce, including the stuff from New York City. And, uh, I found even one from Laredo. Oh, there you go. As far as census and knowing what's in your neighborhood, just check out your local schools.

Check out your school district. What are the demographics there? That's all you have to do. Second of all, is, hey, Do we want to reach these people? Is that our value or mission? Number two, look, look for those outliers. Look for the guys that are cutting our grass at the church, or, uh, [00:32:00] different people in the church who say we're looking for outliers that are in our area.

How do we minister them, reach them, serve them? So, one of the things that I started was Immigrant Hope. that help churches figure out how to serve the immigrants in their area. But really, um, English is a second language. I mean, our church started English as a second language. On the English side, they started it, not on the Spanish side, and boom.

I mean, uh, I think they had 12, 20, 20 different nationalities in, in the, they're coming for it. And, you know, when you, when you help people, that's, that's when they really start asking why and who are you? And, you know, after a while. Those people start coming to church. I mean, um, so, one, uh, be aware of, of, uh, your neighborhood.

Uh, num, num, actually, number one, get your values right. Communicate to the church. Number two, try to understand and, uh, uh, [00:33:00] what's around you. Uh, three, start with service. Uh, start with service. I mean, doing things for the neighborhood, doing things for people. English is a second language. Uh, food bag, clothes, food, you know, closet, uh, um, one church, uh, uh, actually, uh, there's all kinds of things you can do.

And if I give you examples, I'll limit you, but there's so many things somebody has written a book, I'm sure about that. But basically, I think the most, the three most important things are, you know, is it a church value? Uh, have we done a study of what it is and open our eyes and looked, uh, find those outliers?

Some of them may even be already in the church. You know, some of them may be English speaking folk that have connections with the outliers that are around us. And then you cultivate relationships. And fourth one, it's not going to be fast. I mean, it's not going to [00:34:00] be fast. It will go at the speed of God.

And, you know, if God gives you a woman at the well who can bring a town load of people, so be it. But I think sometimes we're going to be tested. The church needs to be ready to test it. They need to know that you're really in it for them and understand they're the future. I mean, so many churches now, in those churches in the margin where, you know, their people have left and some people are still driving in and they're down to...

10th of the size they used to be, um, those people can be the future of the church. And you know, that might be scary for some people. You know, we, we, uh, Scandinavians, uh, we were in this neighborhood and we built this church. They can build their own church. Okay. They probably can. Or you can say, Hey, everything we ever did.

It [00:35:00] can pass forward to other people who will reach other people, and these Latinos may reach other people who come in neighborhoods. So, I think, uh, I think the church needs to have the mentality that this is God's church. And what was done in the past doesn't need to end, because different people are doing it.

If they have the same doctrine, the same mission, the same vision, and if we've equipped them, resourced them, been around for them, then everything that we ever poured into that church can continue through those people that we equipped and reached, and they'll take care of us. No, and that's beautiful. I have one picture.

I have one picture emblazoned in my eyes of this church. In Minneapolis, I won't say the name of the church, there was kind of a flagship forever and ever EFCA church. And their neighborhood changed. And, and [00:36:00] they invited Hispanics to come to the church. And I had this beautiful picture of this elderly, sweet lady coming up the stairs, and a Hispanic guy helping her up the steps.

Like if it was his mother. Hmm. Just emblazoned in my mind. That's, uh, and it can be the other way around too. I mean, um, So, just because we pass the church forward doesn't mean that we have to disappear. No.

Andrew Camp: And in fact, we may actually become more enriched. Mentored. Mentored and, yeah. Yeah, because that God's heart for the nations is, it starts every, you know, it starts at the beginning and continues all through the end.

And so God's heart has always been this multi ethnic diversity that worships in every tongue.

Alex Mandes: When the world sees that, [00:37:00] when the world sees us as one, the world will be W O N. Right.

Andrew Camp: No, absolutely. Um, yeah. Yeah. And it just, with so much divisiveness, you know, I think. are told that we're so different, you know.

If the church can embrace this oneness, I think people are longing for it and want to see something different than what we're told on cable news, whatever channel that may be.

Alex Mandes: Yeah. What do you think is at the heart of that? What do you think is a major impediment? Forget about politics. Okay, you're asking the question, but I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try one on you.

Andrew Camp: No, and I appreciate what's the major impediment to this. I really think it's. It's the fear of the unknown, you know, we're, we're, yeah, we're comfortable with what we know.

Alex Mandes: [00:38:00] Nailed it. Fear. What's the opposite of fear? Love. Love casts out fear. I think what we have is a fear def, a love deficit. Mm-Hmm. . And I think we need to really focus on, on that love, increasing our love.

And as far as I'm concerned, love can be evangelistic. What did Jesus say in John Thir 1334 and 35? A new commandment I give to you that you love one another. By this, all men will know that you are my disciples. Love for me is not a noun, it's a verb. Right? And it is evangelistic. And it is very, very attractive.

Absolutely. I think that's, I circle back to the thing I asked. People need to ask, whose church is this? And what is his purpose? Mm hmm. Yeah. [00:39:00] So, I, I, I mean, we start talking about food, and it is about that, but it's about sharing life. Mm hmm. It's about showing what's important. Um, you're important. My time is important, but there's some times when I just sit here and we have a meal, and you share your life.

Right. You know, one of the things that Jesus did was that he's a life on life disciple maker. Mm hmm. Uh, it's not a program. It's not a set of books. Although those are all helpful. All of those are helpful. Those are benefits that God has given us, but in the Jesus style of discipleship, it was life on laugh.

Follow me. Follow me. Mm hmm.

Andrew Camp: And I think often, I was talking to somebody this week, and we were talking about this new project of mine, this podcast, and [00:40:00] he was asking why the table, and I, you know, we were trying to distill it down, and finally he was like, well, to you, Andrew, it seems that love. Is in the shape of a table.

Like you wanna know what love is? Sit at a table. That's,

Alex Mandes: that's, he's missing the point. It's what happens at the table. It's not the table. Right. Yeah. It's like what Jesus said when you know the altar, it's not what's, it's not the altar, it's what happens on top of the altar. For sure.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. No, and that's where I think when we can move beyond the abstraction of ideas of and get to know face-to-face a person, you know, that's when the cultivation of love can really take place.

Yeah.

Alex Mandes: Yeah. I, I totally believe that. I mean, the, um, fellowship isn't brick and mortar. I had the opportunity to go to Turkey and I [00:41:00] visited the seven churches and when I got to, and when I got to. Ephesus. I mean, that place is still around because everything was made of marble. The prostitute sign is there.

The toilets are still there. The temples for everything is there. And I could not find the church of Ephesus. Because it wasn't there. They melted it in homes. And God gave me this amazing insight. Ah, I'm Ephesus. What they did around their homes. Uh, Acts 4. Uh, 2 42, right? Uh, they did in homes, um, still endures today.

Uh, I'm sure they met in homes and they had meals. In fact, they call 'em love. What would they call Love feast or the agape feasts? Yes. Yeah. What was that? [00:42:00] It was a meal. Mm-Hmm. . It was a meal and it was about love. Uh, so. Yeah, it's, it's a love language. It's a strategy. It's, uh, it's culture. It's changing.

It's not just, uh, the leg of lamb or the color of the beans. It's, uh, what happens on top of the table. It's not just the table. Anybody who, who, uh, wants to ask, why did you call it a table is missing what happens around the table.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. And that's, I was talking. I interviewed Mike Frost for this podcast, um, he's a missiologist from Australia, but he was talking about just the love feasts and how they were different to Roman times because everyone was welcome.

There wasn't a divisiveness, there wasn't a, well, you know, you're not of the same class. It was, you know, it was where they modeled Paul's admonition to us in Galatians 3. 28, where there's neither male nor female, [00:43:00] slave nor free, Greek nor Jew, you know, we're all one in Christ. You know, and I think that's what was the beauty that modeled, the early church modeled for us.

Um, you know, and he mentions that that's what turned Rome upside down. Um, it wasn't politics. It wasn't influencing politics. It was just. small acts of love around a table in demonstrating something counter cultural.

Alex Mandes: You know, the interesting thing, now that you mention it, it starts off with small acts around the table.

But if you're talking about Rome in the first three centuries, Rodney Stark's book talking about the rise of Christianity, uh, talked about acts of service, uh, during the plagues. Right. So, in reality, what happens around the table gets amplified to around the neighborhood.

What happens around the [00:44:00] table gets amplified around the neighborhood, and that gets amplified around the world. And that's a point that Rodney Stark made. He said, uh, how Christians behaved during the plagues made Christianity a world religion. Starts for me around the table.

Andrew Camp: Yeah. Because what we practice together is who we become.

Say that again.

Alex Mandes: What we're doing around the table when no one's watching, it's amplified in the neighborhood. Uh, one of the things that I, I wrote in the book is, I call it the GC3. The Great Commandment, plus the Great Commission, should result in the Great Community. When we love people, the Great Commandment, um, added to, The Great Commission, which is to make disciples, should result in the great community.

And what I mean by community is not [00:45:00] just the people in the church, but the people outside of the church. I think about that passage in Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, that we are the aroma of Christ to those who are perishing and those who are saved. I mean, uh, The great commandment of love, plus the great commission of making disciples, should result in a great community.

It can't end around the table. No. It cannot end around the table, because then it's just a fraternity, a sorority. We can do that anywhere. Right. So the table's got to be the beginning point.

Andrew Camp: Right. And where we take that table to all the nations, you know, and, and then not even just take our table, but then go as guests into culture, um, not as experts, but as learners and.

Alex Mandes: Right, so when I hear your, your title is about the table, for [00:46:00] me, I don't get stuck on the table. We're going to get on a floor around what happens not only around the table, but outside after the table. It's kind of like the sermon, you know, the sermon is casting vision and values, uh, and then what happens after that?

This table is the same way. I mean, the Lord's Supper is a table. It wasn't meant just for us to eat those elements and say, wow, wipe my mouth and say, what's next? It's to be pointing us to proclaim Christ the same way with this table. It's not just about the color of the beans. It's about doing life on life together.

For me, that's part of discipleship. And then what do we do after the table? You know, if, if that's all it is, I can find other places where there's better food. Right. No, [00:47:00] absolutely. Uh, not, not better fellowship. I, I, uh, it's, it's, it's not about the goodness of the food. That's missing the point. It's about what happens afterward.

It's the big and then. Yeah.

Andrew Camp: No, that's a good reminder. You know, that the table isn't, was never meant to just be a holy huddle, but it was meant to be an impetus. To invite others into our own tables, into our own homes.

Alex Mandes: Yeah, so people like that get stuck on strategy and they forget culture. What do you mean by that?

Oh, let's have a table. Let's set up tables. Let's have a monthly, uh, fellowship, uh, dinner. Uh, and, uh, let's make sure that, you know, Johnny's got the stuff there, and somebody's gonna turn the lights on, and somebody's gonna turn the lights off, and, and we're gonna have a program, and, uh, we're gonna make sure we're here [00:48:00] at, uh, on time, and we're out at, uh, 90, 80, 59.

59. And we've got a strategy down, and somebody's executing it, and somebody's making sure it's happening. All well and good, but what happens afterwards? And what happens around the table? Oh, we're gonna have, uh, icebreakers. And we're gonna have, uh, make sure that everybody gets a piece of meat, and a piece of rice, and a piece of bread.

All good. All good. All good. But we need to make sure that we're not just talking strategy, we're also talking culture. And that's where we're talking about the outcome, not just the income, the input, the output.

Andrew Camp: No, wow. A lot to think through and digest when you, when you start talking, Alex. I appreciate your wisdom and insight into all of this.

And, um, and you've sort of hit on it, [00:49:00] like, as you think about the Church today, what What story do you hope the Church embodies or tells for our world?

Alex Mandes: I think that we, we, um, well, first of all, for me, everything comes back to discipleship. Loving people. Gotta start with love. Uh, you know, in one mission organization, I knew their strategy was, wind, build, equip. And that always stuck in my craw. It stuck in my craw. Wind, build, equip. Because they missed the with.

Hmm. When Jesus called people, it was to be with Him. So when, uh, build, equip, without the with, for me, snacks of a strategy that doesn't connect to people's hearts and souls. Maybe they intended it, maybe they meant it, but for me, I think, um, [00:50:00] it is not wrong for me to think strategy, I'm making disciples, the GC3.

It's not wrong to know... the outcome, you know, Covey says, think of the end from the beginning. I think that's wonderful. I think that should be done. Um, but I think it's important that we, we have, uh, that whatever we're doing, including the table, uh, it has an, it has a purpose and an end. And, uh, for me, the table talks about the with, and so the table, particularly as a strategy for reaching our neighbors is, is wonderful.

I mean, uh, who doesn't want a free meal, right? Who doesn't want a friend that will listen, want me to, you know, have an opportunity to invite my friends, you know? So I think, uh, I think, And particularly now, I'm speaking about ministry in the margins. I'm speaking [00:51:00] particularly in those areas that are in transition in America, where churches that are already there, churches that are already paid for, churches that, you know, that um, are on their last legs, so to speak, um, and that's a lot of churches, a lot of churches.

Um, I think they need to be thinking strategically about how do we engage the neighborhood. It's not just to give them the church. I mean, you give them a church, they can turn around and sell it and buy something else. Uh, I think what we're doing, what we need to do is invest ourselves in the future. And in that future are ethnics and immigrants.

And if you want to reach them, strategy includes culture. And, uh, so I, I, I don't, I'm thankful for all the big churches and all the strategy, all the training. God bless them, that's wonderful. But I'm going to tell you what, [00:52:00] Jesus works in the margins. And these churches are in the margins. Both churches are in the margins.

The ones that are, have completed their mission, and those who are looking for a place where they can Do what God wanted him to do. And the marriage of those two. So when you ask me, what do I see, what do I want, I want our churches who are in those margins to realize God's not done with them. There's still tons they can do.

And so, you know, we need to, I really thought about the title of the book, maybe Passing the Church Forward. Hmm. Um. Passing the church forward intentionally, passing the church forward looking around and understanding the communities are changing around us, passing the church forward by investing my time, you know, now that I'm retired, or I'm not retired, I'm just doing [00:53:00] another thing.

It's really realizing. Everything we've ever done as a church doesn't end. We can just pass the church forward by giving it to the next group of people. And I'm not just saying give it to them because they're there. I'm saying investing ourselves in their lives. Mm hmm. It's being witnessed. And and doing it with them and then them taking it on and doing it and not leaving the church, but saying, Hey, I'm going to hang around and I'll be an advisor.

I'll be a counselor. I'll be a mentor. Um, whatever. So for me, I think. The biggest, most exciting things that are happening are happening in the margins. And, and the reason I say that is there's a ton of turnover that's going to be going on of church buildings, uh, of, of church, the wonderful godly people that invested their lives in that building.

Uh, there's still stewards in those [00:54:00] churches that need to steward that forward, uh, rather than being in fear, rather than, uh, saying, oh, we're losing something. We need to realize that. It's not lost until we say it's over and we sell it

recently, I guess, because I've, I'm retired. I've been thinking about, you know, retirement income and stuff like that. And the last few weeks, not that I have a ton of money, but, uh, bonds and stuff like that, stocks didn't do very good. Not that I have that much, but I, I started realizing, well, I don't really lose unless I sell low.

I lost, but what if I don't sell? What if I just hang on to it? And what if those churches aren't sold? They're just held on to. And they're just reinvested. Uh, I think, I think there's, that's probably the number one biggest, uh, thing that gets me jazzed [00:55:00] up and, uh, concerned is people getting over the fear and the loss and realizing there's no loss until we give up.

Hmm. We need to pass it forward, and that doesn't happen by just giving somebody a building. That means we invest in those that are the future. Yeah,

Andrew Camp: and we look outside, and we look towards the margins.

Alex Mandes: Exactly, and I'm telling you right now, meals around the table are one of the greatest ways to connect with people.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, absolutely.

Wow. Well, thank you so much for your, your wisdom, your insight. Um, and as we wrap up, I'd like to just ask a few sort of fun questions in rapid fire, just since we've been talking about food. Um, What's one food you refuse to eat?

Alex Mandes: Lunafisk!

For those [00:56:00] of you all who don't know, uh, it is this sort of gelatinous fish. It's kind of a Scandinavian, um, treat. Um... Bill Hamel, the president, uh, was a big, uh, uh, Mexican food aficionado, and he wanted, he challenged me to have, uh, some ludifice tacos. I said, I lose. Yeah. Tried it. Okay. I tried it. Yeah. Uh, maybe if I'd had some hot sauce, I could have sanctified it.

Right.

Andrew Camp: Ludifice. Yeah, salsa covers a multitude sins. So then, on the other end of the spectrum, what's one of the best things you have ever eaten?

Alex Mandes: Ah,

mole. Mole. Mole. Yes, sir. It's a, it's a sauce that you put on chicken that is a combination of peanut butter, [00:57:00] Chili and chocolate. Mm hmm. And if done right, you can't taste either one of them.

No. It's an amazing sauce. So it's on chicken, and recently I've even had some people putting it on their enchiladas. Yeah. Wow. Amazing.

Andrew Camp: No, mole is one of those, yeah, ingredients in salsa.

Alex Mandes: I had this lady in church who made mole, and she said it took her eight hours. Yeah. I asked her to teach me how to do it, and she said no.

Because then you wouldn't come to my house.

Andrew Camp: No. Yep. Yep. It seems like the

Alex Mandes: best food. Not even the food. It's even prepping the food together and stuff like that.

Andrew Camp: Anyway. Yeah. No, it's rubbing shoulders. It's, it's learning from abuelas. You know, handing down the traditions, you know, just like churches need to hand down the traditions. It's handing down the cultural food traditions as well.

And then, and then finally, um, there's sort of a conversation amongst chefs about if you knew you only had one last [00:58:00] meal to enjoy, what would it be? And so for you, if you had one last meal, what would you choose to eat and why? Easy.

Alex Mandes: The Lord's Supper. The Lord's Supper? Because I want to remember him forever.

Hmm. That's beautiful. With my family. The church. Yeah. No kidding. Lord's Supper.

Andrew Camp: Hmm. Yeah. And in community, not by yourself, but with those you

Alex Mandes: love. With those I love. My church. Wow. But with real wine.

Andrew Camp: Yeah, exactly. Yes. None of this Welch's grape juice that was invented to take it. Lots of good stuff. Yes.

Amen. Amen. Well, thank you again for joining me, Alex. This was a true privilege and an honor just to have this time with you. And so yeah, no, look forward to more. And if people want to learn more about your [00:59:00] work or what you're up to, is there a way they can connect with you?

Alex Mandes: Uh, well, I am on Facebook at Alex Mandes I also have a website called alex. mandus at Outlook. No, it's called, uh, alexmandes com. Perfect.

Andrew Camp: Great. And we'll make sure those are posted in the show notes. So again, thanks for joining. Yeah. Thanks for joining us on this episode of The Biggest Table, where we explore what it means to be transformed by God's love around the table and through food.

Until next time. Bye.

Alex Mandes: God bless you, brother.