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The podcast for high-level leaders carrying the invisible weight of the world.
If you’re a founder, executive, or high-ranking leader, you already know this truth: the higher you rise, the fewer people you can safely talk to.
Lonely at the Top is a sanctuary in the storm—a space where the emotional cost of leadership is named, and where relief, clarity, and grounded support are always on the table.
Hosted by Soul Medic and former psychotherapist Rachel Alexandria, this podcast dives into the unspoken realities of high-level decision-making: the pressure, the isolation, the doubt, and the fatigue. Each episode offers insight, emotional tools, and conversations with seasoned leaders who’ve learned to navigate the weight of responsibility without losing themselves.
you have to trust people to do
Mm-hmm.
part of that cultivating in advance of the need.
Yeah.
if you wait until you need that, it's gonna be too late. 📍
📍 Welcome to Lonely At the Top, a podcast for high level leaders carrying the invisible weight
of the world. Because you know the higher you rise, the fewer people you can safely talk to.
Here we welcome founders, executives, and decision makers who feel the isolation and
pressure that comes with power.
Lonely at the top is your sanctuary in the storm, and I'm your host, Soul Medic and former
psychotherapist, Rachel Alexandria. Today, I'm so excited for this interview, we have Dee
Meacham, the Senior Vice President of people solutions at a very large corporation. She's a
senior executive with nearly 30 years of experience leading transformation in spaces where
people and technology meet. Her career has been defined by working in the gray, and we're
gonna get into that, navigating between HR and IT, people and systems, tradition and
innovation to shape the future of work.
Beyond her executive work Dee serves on the board of a nonprofit focused on expanding
opportunities for people high on passion and mentors STEM students as they prepare to lead
in tomorrow's world. Such, ah, just, we just are doing such cool work and I'm really excited to
talk to you, Dee. We, we don't really know each other, so you're one of my, one of my
interviews with someone that I'm brand new to.
Well, I'm thrilled to be here. I really appreciate the opportunity.
Absolutely. We were connected via, Sunni.
Yes.
Yes.
Sunni for many years and she is very excited about this podcast and all of the, people you're
bringing together on it.
Oh, that's so nice. I love that. I appreciate that. We're going to make sure that we speak in
more generalities and sometimes speak about places you no longer work, or if we do speak
about where you work, we're going to talk specifically about your experience, the deeper inner
emotional stuff and not anything particular to the location, because
That sounds good. Yep.
Yeah, yeah.
So for folks, tuning into this podcast, it's one of the things that I've run into is people doing
powerful work in big, powerful companies have to get permission to be able to be doing any
kind of media. And I hope that's okay to say, okay,
it takes longer than all of us would like to, uh, to have the opportunity to have these
conversations. But, it works out.
this one worked out. I actually had somebody tell me, no, I had somebody recently, they were
like, let me go talk to my team. I'd love to do the show. And they came back and they were like,
our media team says no podcasts.
Oh, well I'm glad I get
Yeah. Yeah, so we'll make sure to make you look good. How about that?
that's good. That's good. That's all I can ask for.
So 30 years of experience, for people who don't know what it takes to get to something like a
senior VP role, walk us through a little bit of your path there.
Yeah. Um, you know, it's interesting, every time I talk to somebody who is in even tangential
roles to mine, it's interesting, the very, very many different ways all of us kind of walk. So those
paths are not straight and they're
No.
not all the same. My path started, go way back to when I was, you know, a young kid and
interested in how things worked and, was always really passionate about and interested in,
breaking things down to their components and figuring out what made something tick.
Whether that was people, whether that was technology, whether that was a toy I was playing
with or something in the house . Lucky enough to be in a household where my family
encouraged that. Um, it eventually led me to going into an engineering program, at the time
that I was doing engineering and I, we can go all into the high school things I was in and the,
the programming and computer classes and the kind of things that girls of my age weren't
really doing at that time.
Yeah.
but I decided to go into electrical engineering. Graduated as one of four female electrical
engineers in my class at Texas A & M. It was a really large, large
A class of
a
many people?
about, I think there were about 500 of us graduating in electrical engineering
Wow.
that year. So there weren't very many.
So like 1%.
Yeah, very, very, very small percentage. And it was funny
Wow.
it's a side note, some friends were with my parents and they're like, how do we find her in that
crowd? They're like, she's one of four people with long hair. You will find her in that crowd. So
that, that was pretty difficult at that point. But you know, it took me going into engineering and
actually loving the engineering classes to realize that I didn't necessarily want to work with
engineers all the time, if that makes sense. I did a few internships. The people who I was
exposed to were shutting their doors, and, you know, really fairly introverted and I really, really
liked working with people.
Mm-hmm.
and so I actually worked with a lab tech, a couple of summers I was working at a computer,
development organization. And, he was like, you know, can find things that intermix this stuff.
That's totally possible. You just have to open your eyes to different opportunities. My last
summer interning, I actually had a chance to work in a consulting company, Anderson
Consulting at the time. They eventually became Accenture. And realized that that's really where
my passion was, was working with people and with technology. And so they brought me into
the technology consulting.
Spent several years working through, different projects, technology projects. Complete
different industry than what I'm in right now, but in the oil and gas industry. And again, kind of
hit another pivot point and I think that's really been the hallmark of my career over the last 30
years.
You're working on something, realizing how much you enjoy it, and then hitting a pivot point
where say, oh, there's this other thing that's really interesting and I think I'd like to go
experiment with that. So I went from working in consulting to working in an industry and at that
point I was starting a family and thought, okay, I need to be someplace where I'm not on the
road all the time.
I think that's a pretty common decision that,
Mm-hmm.
of, a lot of families end up making.
Yeah.
up working for a telecommunications company, and software. For a while working with their,
application development and production support organization. That company sold. I had a
chance to do some more consulting again and outsourcing in a whole series of industries. And
then I had a particularly bad day, one day, and decided to go look online and see what jobs
were out there. And it was a bad enough day that I didn't think about searching for location.
And what that meant was every job with my skillset popped up and it popped up in
alphabetical order.
And Disney actually came up as the number one job, which I was living in Texas at the time.
Did not think that was something that would be
Wow.
for me.
Yeah.
Um, and my husband came into the room and is like, what's the worst thing that could
happen? Right? You talk to them, you've always thought that they were an interesting
company.
He starts trotting out, like, look at where we honeymooned at Disney, and look at all the time,
all the Disney stuff in our house. You should talk to them.
Yeah.
so I, I decided to just take a chance and apply and three months later we were moving from
Texas to California.
Wow.
that was actually really the start of my career in media and entertainment.
I've been in media and entertainment for the last, probably, 18 years now. And, when I was a
kid, I wouldn't have thought that any of this was a real job. I worked at Disney for many years in
technology. Worked in their corporate technology groups, worked in the parks technology
team. Uh,
Ooh.
another, another pivot point. Yeah. Had lots of really great experiences with that. Leading
global tech investment, for the parks organization around the world. And working with the CIO
there. Then had an opportunity, um. I was reached out by the HR organization there, and
saying, Hey, listen, you've been doing a lot of work with developing people as part of your
technology role. Um, you've been leaning in and, and been a part of some of the programs and
you're working really closely with a guest experience. What if we turned that around and
thought about what that experience would look like from an employee standpoint? And it was
a new concept for them. You know, they were a hundred year old company that, had like many
other large companies over time had developed, down a path of working in a certain way.
Mm-hmm.
but there was also an expectation that, that there would be this guest experience. So if you're
familiar with what the experience would be as a guest, they wanted to turn that inward. I was
really nervous. I was, at that point thinking, okay, there aren't enough women in tech in the first
place.
Right. I've
Yeah.
career in technology.
And at this point, let me, let me pause you here.
yeah.
point you're talking about Disney and your role was
My role at that point was, vice president over technology, business management, reporting to
the CIO.
okay.
It was very clearly this technology testing and technology projects
Mm-hmm. Okay.
and that's really where I had worked in, working with some infrastructure. So it was heavily a
tech role. But it was also about developing the people in that department, which is what, you
know, caught the eye of the folks in the HR team. And they said, we'd like to have someone
like this working with us. And I decided to take a leap and do something a little bit different. So
it brought me into the HR space and that's actually where I've been for the last, um, seven
years which is not a place I ever expected to be.
Yeah. So for folks who don't know, because I think we've got a variety of people who listen to
this podcast. We have people who are in senior roles and people who probably aspire to. What
does it mean to develop people? I think the people know what it means,
You're right. Yeah. What
like develop technology makes sense.
You take it from concept to alpha to beta and work on deploying versions and that kind of
thing. But what does it mean to develop people?
So developing people in the roles that I have been in have been about thinking what are the
skills and capabilities that they need to be successful? So that might be their technical skills. It
might be soft skills, like how do I communicate? How do I, think about my writing or, um, really
the, the other things that maybe aren't part of your core job, but are other things that are very
important when you're in business. It also oftentimes means when big organizations are
changing the way they work. So it might mean an org structure change, or it might mean, Hey,
these jobs that used to be separate, we're going to combine them. Or we want to split
something up and it means that the people in those jobs are going to have to work differently.
Um, it's all of the work that goes into thinking, how do you make sure that those individuals
can continue to be successful?
Mm-hmm.
for me, that included training. It included, outlets for them to have conversations with their
peers or with their leaders. It included performance feedback for them. It included a lot.
I did a lot of work with our diversity programs, with, thinking about making sure that we had all
kinds of backgrounds and ideas represented, and how do those all come together to make the
business successful, but also make the individual successful. So I had worked on a number of
programs that were targeting each of those areas in addition to our technology that we were
delivering.
Obviously you are more extroverted and you really enjoy people and you care about people.
How did you get the skills? Because you came from engineering, right?
Yeah. You
So how.
say some of it is the way that I've always worked. The, the just saying innate personality traits.
A lot of it is encouragement from mentors and other leaders and being really observant of the
kind of person I wanted to be in the workforce. Observing people who I respected or who I
thought, could really impress a room or that I wanted to work for, that inspired me saying, okay,
what are the things that I need to do to be more like that?
And in terms of development, because organizational development is something that I studied
when I went to grad school in addition to therapy. And people who don't do it probably think in
some way that it's easy, right? If they're not frustrated by people in general, they're like, yeah,
you just, you know, encourage people.
But you and I know that it's way more complex than that. And that's a common refrain that I
hear from really successful people with good hearts is that they saw somebody who inspired
them and they said, how do I do more of this in the world? How do I, bring this to bear?
And is there anything else you did? Did you do any trainings or did you shadow people?
Yeah. I had the opportunity early on a few things. One was, I think one of the benefits of going
into consulting when I got out of college was the amount of training that we were provided with
how to interact with people.
Okay,
there was some pretty heavy emphasis on everything from social interactions.
Anderson, I don't know if they still have that. But there was , a facility that you would go to and
you would practice social interactions.
cool.
of cocktail party, like how are you gonna have a conversation? And giving you the opportunity
to make mistakes and be uncomfortable and get comfortable in uncomfortable situations,
Nice.
the formal presentations and all of the formal things you had to do. So that was definitely one
aspect of it. Another was I had the opportunity to be involved in numerous mentoring programs
early on in my career, then I've continued that going forward. Whether I am, mentoring or being
mentored. I feel like that's a really important aspect is connecting with people who have skills
that are different than yours and having a chance to learn what makes them tick and what
works for them and what doesn't.
Yeah. That's really cool. And it, it actually makes me wonder if that's why so many people who
get into these higher level positions often come from a background of consulting because of
the training.
yeah, well I think there's the training piece of it and it takes practice and jumping in and being
able to learn an environment quickly and early and, when you are in consulting, you are forced
into that. So I, I think
Yeah.
to me has probably been the most applicable skill that I have learned, and I've used it at every
stage of my career.
That idea of getting to know who the key people are in any decision, getting to understand if
maybe they're not a decision maker, but they're gonna be a champion behind the scenes. You
identify all the roles, you identify the lay of the land, and then you very quickly need to be able
to move and make some recommendations.
You also develop confidence in doing that. And so I think that's an applicable skillset for
leadership that you just inherently get when you only have a short amount of time on a client
site.
Yeah. Do you know the Enneagram at
Yes,
all?
do. And I cannot, cannot. I was like, I meant before this to get on and say, okay, I when last
time I took it, I'm familiar with it. I don't remember what my, what my number is.
Yeah, that's, I was just sitting here starting to go. I wonder what her Enneagram type is, or the
Enneagram type of people who are able to like, this is not the kind of work for people who
need time and slowness and percolation to make decisions. This is like, let's go.
you're, you're on it quickly
Yeah.
comfortable with change too. I think that's been something that I've seen all through the
number of times I've had to say, "we are living in times of unprecedented change" over the last
30 years . Right. Does it, it feels like we hear it from everywhere now, and I'm like, how much
can we all do of this change? And at some point you just say, okay, enough. I'm, I'm done with
it. But that is, that ability to adapt to it and to not let it get you worn down or to recognize when
you are starting to get worn down and care for yourself and manage through it, I think is really
key. And being in environments with high change, do that for you.
So I'm curious when you heard about the show and the title of the show, it sounds like you've
had a lot of people to talk to and a lot of peers and a lot of teachers and support. What
appealed to you about talking about loneliness at the top? Like is this something you
experience and what's that like for you?
Where did that come in?
That's such a great question. 'cause I was thinking about that this morning. I'm like, how often
have I been really lonely?
Yeah.
like really felt that loneliness. For me, so one, I would say you're right. I, I have absolutely had
the pleasure of working with and creating networks where I've needed to.
And some of that's just been because that's how I operate best.
Mm-hmm.
to connect with people and so I go find ways to do that. when I felt my loneliness and the
places I've had to, jump in , and change that for myself has been because of the roles that I'm
in. , I think we've talked a little bit about this before, this idea of, you know, I've oftentimes
been in roles that I've either created myself or don't have a direct niche into.
So, uh, Brene Brown talks about this paradox, that leaders hold paradoxes. And I think that's
such a, a great analogy. That you have to, as a leader, be able to hold multiple things that feel
like they shouldn't be true. And, and yet they are. Things like, I need to understand the details,
but there's this big picture that's telling me something different, right?
The paradox of being able to do both of those at once. For me, a lot of times in my roles that
I've been in, it's been this balance of knowing that technology and technology innovation is a
core of the work I'm doing and the reality that it's really people in my experience that make that
difference.
And whether technology is adopted and adopted successfully or not. And balancing those two
things is where I believe my success has been. That's where I would say, that's where I've
leaned into. And that means the jobs I'm doing oftentimes could either be in an HR
organization or they could be in an IT organization, they could be in a business team.
Technology's become so ubiquitous with everything we do right now and every major
company. It's embedded. You have to have a little bit of all, which means sometimes the jobs
I've been in haven't existed before or don't exist in the exact same way. So I don't have
someone to talk to who's doing the exact same thing
I am at the exact place I am. And that's where you, it can feel lonely. , Also, I, I have a tendency
to go out and find my own networks, connect with everybody that I can.
Yeah, it sounds, I mean, I'm not surprised. You, you have a lot of energy and, a lot of just
willingness. I think that's what I notice, and I think that is part of what makes people successful
connectors. Just a willingness to be in connection and to get to know someone. We didn't
know each other and you're like, yeah, let's make it work.
And
talk.
even though I have, you know, I have obstacles, I really appreciated that and I just wanna call
that out for listeners to the show, I know a lot of people and have known, and I have been one
of them who want to be more successful, and I think the difference is people who make it up
higher.
I mean, we can talk about privilege and where people come from but I've definitely had people
on the show who've come from complete poverty. It's not just that there is , a force of will,
there's just this like yes, of course we should get to know each other.
Yes, let's connect. And I could see how that would bring you to feeling less lonely. That's a
great trait if you can get it.
Well, and I, I do think it's one of those things that you can work on too, and even when it's not
natural. There have been periods of time in my life where I have just not felt like I had the time
or energy to be connected to anyone or not beyond a, a small group. Um, and that's okay,
right?
Mm-hmm.
with that. But you can, like, one of the techniques that I'll use oftentimes is just keeping that list
of, if I've talked to you and you suggest, Hey maybe, you ought to go talk to this other person.
You guys have a lot in common. I keep a list and maybe that day I don't feel like doing it, or
that week I don't feel like doing it.
But at some point I'm gonna go down that list and say, okay, who's somebody who I need to
make time to reach out to? and I do keep a running list and I keep time on my calendar carved
out for connection. Um, because that's important to me. It's an important thing.
That highlight, like put it on the banner. I keep time carved out in my calendar for connection, is
the difference between you and everyone out there who is feeling isolated? Yep.
That makes sense.
Cut and print it. That's it. That's the show. No, I love that though. And I think I am a similar
person that I prioritize connection over other things.
Right. Other things will suffer because I'm like, no, I need to make sure I get my social, like on
my weekly wrap up, how did I do on social time this week?
Yeah.
did I do on my networking time this week? Those are really important to me. I will make sure
I'm hitting those.
You know, I think just the fact though, that you have that weekly wrap up too, another
technique, that going back and saying and, and I think that's been a lot of, especially over the
last. 15 years or so, I'd say latter half of my career, is developing those techniques and
throwing out the ones that don't work for me anymore.
Right? Sometimes there's just stuff, I don't
Yeah.
for it. I've got too many other things going on. But the, the keeping up with the, the list of
names and following up with people
Yeah. That's so good.
I leave time, start of the week, end of the week for wrapping up. And, and it's hard when you're
really busy, but it's such important time.
I tell it to my teams all the time, the folks that work with me, if you're not carving out some time
to have those thoughts and figure out what you're gonna do next, if you want to do something
other than what you're doing right now, and, and that's okay. Some people just really enjoy
what they're doing and that's,
Yeah,
too.
But
yeah,
if you're interested in growing your career, if you're interested in doing something new or
different, or you're feeling a little bit stuck, the best thing you can do for yourself is carve out
that time. You're gonna be better in your current job and you're gonna be moving to the next
thing.
yeah. People act like they are disempowered in regards to their time. Their time is the
commander of them.
Yeah.
And that's not how it works. We are the ones who set our schedule, especially internally.
There's a great story in, I used to be a huge fan of Robert Fulghum. Remember everything I
need to know. I learned in kindergarten. Yeah.
absolutely.
I bought all his books and I loved them. And , there's a book called, It Was On Fire When I Laid
Down On It.
And in that he tells a story about how you know, he's like in college and he is working a job,
and there was a guy on the job who every day complains about his lunch. Oh, it's the same
thing every day. Same darn thing. Blah, blah, blah. I hate my lunch.
And eventually Robert's like, who makes your lunch? And he goes, I do. You know,
Yep.
that's what I think when people are like, oh, I just don't, I can't find the time. I don't have the
time. Who makes your lunch?
Yeah.
You do. You make your time.
Yeah. I, at times an interesting, flexible thing, right? And, I think we all find ourselves, I definitely
find myself at its mercy at times and then having to reset. Um.
Like wrangle control back from, yeah. Yeah.
I said, put it on a calendar, put it on something that I'm following that says, these are the things
that are gonna be important.
And then, taking that inventory of what's important to me at that point in my life. Because at
times it's been the career and connection at times, it's been things in my family. At times it's
been something social or community that I feel like I need to be involved with. And you're right,
you can't always do everything all at the same time,
Nope.
but you can pick what your priorities are.
Yeah. You can be intentional.
Yeah.
So , I think you've given us a really good big picture and already some really good pieces of
advice from someone who's lived it. Let's talk about a season of leadership that really tested
you.
Yeah. And I was thinking there's two things that come to mind when you say that
Okay?
The first is, less of a season, more of points. And it's all those pivot points that I talked about.
Okay.
the points where I've reached in my career where I've realized, oh, there's something else
interesting. And wow, that is not what I had planned.
Like I was always a planner and I had this, this
Yeah.
plan of where I was gonna go and now I have to change it, and that's scary and I don't like it.
And
Yeah.
to come to terms with that. And I've done that multiple times now. And I've gotten much better
at it. The other though, this more of a season is when I've worked with individuals or individual
that maybe it hasn't been the right cultural fit, right?
Or we haven't shared values and I have made decisions along those pivots where I've taken
roles that have fit a few checkbox, checked off a few things on my check boxes, of this is a
skill I want to learn, or a organization I really want to be involved with. I'm gonna go in and do it
only to discover that the leader, the individual that I'm working with is really not somebody that
I'm going to gel with. That whether we've had, you know, in particular, I think of a couple of
situations where we've just had very different values. Different values to the point where it
made it incredibly hard to come to work every day, even though I liked everything else that I
was doing in that job
Yeah. Yeah.
And, um, you know, it was a situation that I got myself so embedded in and convinced that I
had to do this work.
I had to finish it out. I had to get to whatever milestone I had in my head that I was physically
sick, like. You , you know, blacking out. I had a couple of times where I
Oh my God.
getting ready for work.
No.
Yes. They've never, I, okay. I do not recommend that to anybody.
No.
let yourself get to the point where it's that bad.
And , this is me too, taking things that, you know, learning to separate myself emotionally from
the work.
Yeah,
but I will say I've walked away from this and I've had that happen twice, you'd think I'd learn
after the first time. But where you've walked away and said, okay, you know, what's really
important to me at this point in my life, it's work, but it is also the people who I do it with.
yeah.
the culture. It is the, environment that you need to be in. And that was a huge lesson for me.
Huge lesson.
Wow. So, uh, not to get too much into the details, but I am just curious, you're mid getting
ready for work, like you're putting on your mascara,
Putting on my mascara, and I realized that I have fallen to the ground and fainted
Oh my God,
and I, and I got up a few minutes later and had the thought, oh my gosh. If something, if, if I
hadn't woken up, if I'd hit my head, if something had happened,
yeah.
would I have, would anybody have cared that I stayed
Aw,
job one more day?
right.
cared about that. Not even the people who I was working with. They would've been fine. Right.
Nobody wants that.
Yeah.
my family didn't, and certainly I don't. And it actually made me realize, okay, I need to take
some drastic steps to think about the work I'm doing and who I'm doing it with. And make
some hard decisions. And that's okay. And some of it is my own, I've got this plan, I'm gonna
go down that path.
Learning
to be much more flexible. And that success is how I define it. How I define it now, not
necessarily how I defined it five years ago.
Based off of things that you had learned from other people, other expectations, right.
Exactly. I've gotta, as an individual, and again, another thing that I really encourage the folks I
work with and the folks on my teams is you've gotta define what success is for you. And
success is not just what you're doing, to earn your paycheck every day.
It is the people you work with. It is the impact you're making on the world. It can be anything
that's important to you. I've gotten to a place in my life where the outside organizations I'm
involved with, the work I'm doing, the people I'm influencing, is as important as the
deliverables that are being created.
Yeah, that makes sense. You're, you're in the place of being an elder, being a teacher,
Yeah. I.
I mean, in a good, yeah. No, it's not a bad thing. I don't mean like elderly. I mean, it's a term my
use so much for myself now that I didn't think about how it might land. I think there's. We're in
a time, my best friend who also helps with this podcast has remarked that it feels like we're in a
time without elders.
And I don't know because I do see some out there, but it feels like, those of us who are midlife,
you know, the people who came before us that were the mentors and teachers before us,
they're retired or retiring, and who are the elders? Those are the shoes we're starting to step
into.
I even in though, I'm, oh God, I'm almost 50, so there's that. I can kick and stretch.
Oh, we could have a whole nother podcast on physical ailments and how, what
Let's.
up every day.
Right. It's like, oh, just in time for me to try to look like I've got stuff together and, and be the
teacher. I guess that's why the guru has the cane, right?
Well, I, but you know what, I think that's a really interesting point. 'cause there's definitely times
where I, I look at that and I think. Yeah, I, I'm still looking for somebody else and I'm like, oh
wait, wait a minute. That's, that's me. And it's okay. Like, kind of getting comfortable leaning
into that role.
mm-hmm.
and one of the great things about midlife and later, I think is also getting more comfortable in
your own skin. Right. Like, knowing I'm not gonna make myself sick over something I'm doing
at work.
Nah.
I, am going to follow a value that's important to me, whether it's around about the world I live in
or the work I do, or the people in my family, I'm okay with that.
And it may not be the popular choice. And, and it's okay. I don't have to it, it's
And what is the popular choice? When you're in a, a peerless experience, the kind of job you're
doing and the type of person that you are, and you're like 1% of the population of your
graduating class being female. And then going into this place where you're at this intersection
of people and technology and being able to speak both languages, who possibly could tell you
how that's supposed to go? There's no one who set those benchmarks for you.
you know, getting comfortable with that. I feel like for so much of my career I was chasing,
okay, who's the, who's gonna be the right person to make that decision? And, and that's a
great point. I think realizing that it's me.
Mm-hmm.
you know, there are times in our lives where you're the teacher and there are times when you're
in roles to learn.
And I've had the opportunity to be in both of them.
Yeah.
The roles that I've been in that have been in that intersection point, the ones that are in
between, it's definitely ends up landing on more the teacher, but kind of a combination. 'cause
what I find myself doing is learning from the people that I work with, whether that's like I, I
currently work in an HR related organization, which is my job now. But I work very heavily with
the technology teams and in past parts of my job, I've had that flipped. But taking the best of
both and being able to pull them together and then being confident enough and being able to
recommend, hey, this is the direction we ought to go and here's why. That's the part that I've
gotten much more comfortable leaning into.
And I think that's the thing that's unique about the roles that I've been in.
Yeah. And they need you to be that person. 'cause they're looking around going who? Who
decides? Who determines who's the person?
a lot of who decides that happens and you know what? And sometimes the best thing, I mean,
for me, that's kind of cool, right? This idea of, you know what, I'm gonna make a decision and
somebody eventually will tell me if it's not a direction we wanna go. And I again, leadership I
think oftentimes is about that.
And it's scary. 'cause if somebody isn't really telling you this is good or bad, I mean, I'm
measured on things. We're all measured on things. I don't think there's a role in the world that
doesn't get, you know, you could be the head of a company and you're answering to
somebody about its success.
Mm-hmm.
but it also involves making decisions in the absence of, of
Certainty.
and
Yeah,
getting comfortable with chances.
because no one knows, that's what it takes to lead, right? You're the captain of the boat, so
you gotta steer it. You'll find out later whether that was a choice that got you where you wanted
to go or not.
Yep. Yeah,
Let's get into the personal ledger, because at the top, no one sees your balance sheet of
burdens.
So let's open your personal ledger, your private ledger, and I'll ask you to share one cost of
being in leadership.
I think it is very easy to lose yourself in the what ifs. And there have absolutely been times
where I have done that. Where you are either pondering back on those decisions that what if I
had done something different? Did I do this the right way?
Hmm.
or the what ifs on the, the way that I go forward. And as we were just talking about, right?
There's nobody there telling you this is the exact path that you need to go on. And getting
caught in that spiral is draining and exhausting and paralyzing. And that's the kind of thing that
either can for me,
come out and physical ailments, you know, sick, taking things too internally. it also can mean
that kind of a bit of stagnation, right?
Yeah.
getting caught and doing the same things over and over again because they've been the way
that works. And you fall a little bit. You can get comfortable with that.
Yeah.
Um. And sometimes I have to remind myself almost like an external voice saying, okay, wait,
this isn't what you want to be, or, or who you want to be or who you want to be remembered
as, um, going back and
Hmm.
about all those people who I do admire, from a leadership perspective or from a peer
perspective or just from a human perspective and say, what do I wanna do to be more like
them? You kinda have to kick yourself outta it. But yeah, that, that getting caught, that mental
anguish and anxiety, it's very real and I think it's not something people always talk about.
No, because leaders are all pretending to not be anxious.
Oh my gosh, yes. And I I think oftentimes, you think that your leader, the people you're working
with have some super human strength, right? Some way of working. They just know the
answer. They're comfortable everybody's just human. That has been such a huge lesson for
me.
Everybody from the top to the bottom of the organizations I'm a part of are just people trying to
do their best. And that can help you remember that you are not, that, you're not
Yeah.
end all be, you might not be all that in a bag of chips. You're just, you know,
Mm-hmm.
doing your best. And the people who you might be nervous around or worried about talking to,
they're doing the same thing.
They're just trying to figure out and make their way.
Yeah. I mean, I think about that when I tried to change my business from being just your
average therapist. Well, maybe I was never average, but like
Oh.
therapist, I know I wasn't average, but, but in terms of presentation and marketing and all that,
I didn't have any funding.
I'd never worked in corporate and I just got clear after a while through communing with spirit
and just kind of like, okay, what's not working in my business and what do I need to be
different and who am I trying to serve? And I got really clear that I wanna serve these high level
decision makers.
I want to be the person that they can trust that they can lean on. Because I know, I've basically
befriended almost every teacher I ever had. Like, this is just how I'm built. I was friends with all
my RAs in the dorms in college.
we, we were the same person I think growing up for sure.
And I, I had to go through a transit, uh, because, because I never went into corporate, I had to
go through a transition of understanding that I need to move out of being the support person
into being the front person, but that's a whole other side story. In terms of my business,
though, I am still that support person for those people because I don't wanna be the senior vp.
That's not really like, I love what I do, you know, I love creating these moments of
transformation of people, but how did I get from being a therapist to just your average
workaday person, wanting to bill their insurance and kind of stuff to working with people like
you. I just, I had to figure out how to bridge that gap and not be intimidated.
Because everybody's just people. And I can see that, I can see to the heart, like everybody just
kind of wants you to get past all of their walls in their veneer and be like, oh, there you are, and
you're meaningful and you're cared for and you're welcome and you belong.
That is beautiful. Was there something for you that was like the, the aha moment? Or like
Uh,
how did you make that happen?
yeah. Right. I had a lot of conversations with Spirit about that because I had a couple clients
who were in that vein. One who, who still works with me and has actually upleveled her career
in the 15 years we've worked together. Someday, if she has the ability, she'll be on the
podcast, but she has a job that requires even more privacy.
So that's a big maybe. I knew, I, I loved working with her. I just kept talking with Spirit and kept
listening and, and kept leaning into it and saying that's who I was working with. And also doing
the work to figure out where do those people hang out?
'cause you guys don't all hang out in the same place at all. Like, it's not like marketing any
other business. It's not like, oh, here's where all the senior VPs and the general councils and
the CEOs and the multimillion business owners all hang out in this. They don't all go to Pilates
at Joe's Pilates.
right.
know what I mean? So it, you know, it just, but it's that same thing of, of standing in a place
and saying, this is who I am and I see you and, and I don't know all the answers, but I do know
we'll figure it out together.
Yeah.
It's kind of the same, it comes from that same place inside of just trusting that you're going to
make those choices and move everyone forward.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah. Well, and part of what I hear you describing, it really resonates, this idea of being able to
sit with what are the things that are important to you, what are your motivators? Um, and then
shaping that into where do you go next? And again, a trust of intuition, trust of what's going on
around you, and putting it out there.
And those connections tend to happen. The absolute best jobs I've ever had are all been tied
to creating my own role. Um,
Hmm.
been like, oh, here's a posting and I'm just gonna go
Right.
that's it. Or
Yeah.
this list. Like I said, I've got my five-year plan and I've made a list, and I'm gonna now go to
this next thing. They have all been, when I've been able to focus on, these are the elements of
the work that I like. Here's the outcome. I wanna be able to influence and achieve. , Here's
some ways that I like to get there. Some tools or techniques or capabilities that I'd like to
leverage and use and being open to that, being in lots of different kinds of roles and not
necessarily in just this one
Not being attached to the exact outcome.
And not being
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
attached to the team, not being attached, like you said, to the outcome. Looking for these
elements that are gonna be something I can get excited about. And I do
Yeah,
looking for volunteer organizations to be a part of, or mentoring work that I'm doing or jobs that
I'm looking for.
it's great advice. I, I totally agree. Being clear about what you need and surrendering thinking
that you know how it's gonna look.
Yep.
You don't, it's almost never gonna look like what you expect it to look like.
Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. Well, let's get back into your private ledger. So can you share with us one invisible
asset that you had that you didn't maybe know you had at the time?
Yeah. You know, we were just hitting on this, , I really think it's this visualization.
Okay.
this ability to take a step back. That, and I'm gonna say I was supposed to only have one
because
Now you can,
was gonna, my second one was gonna be my, my listening to my family and the people around
me, kind of this
uh,
like this. I, I am surrounded myself with some pretty amazing people if I do say so myself, my
yeah.
I'm really happy with all of them. They're lovely, but also friends and found family and people
who I trust and going to people who, um, I would trust to make this decision in their own lives.
And knowing that that's not always the same person for every
Mm.
have to make.
Right.
that, that, um. Kind of group of, called it in some of the other groups, a group of powerful
souls. Your, your
Ooh.
board of directors right
Yeah,
They're, it is a group of people that you can trust. So trusting my own intuition and then
knowing when it's time to go to that group of people who I've built up. Not specific for that
time of need, but just general around me. Um, because when the need comes, you don't know
when it's gonna happen or who's gonna be the right person.
yeah. I love that. Yeah. I think you and I are similar in that way, um, that I have a variety of
friends and I learned a long time ago, you can't just go to one person for every different need.
There's the person you go to and you're like, I just want you to take my side. I just need to vent
and I need you to be like,
need
screw that person.
right now, and this is my listener friend, and I'm gonna go to them and they're gonna Yeah.
And I need the person who's like, I've got the shovel. Where do we bury the body, you know?
And then, the person who's gonna ask really thoughtful questions and you know, the person
who's gonna help me get out of the way that I see it. I absolutely agree. And again, I think this
is why you haven't stayed lonely, because you've cultivated that so much and you keep
referencing your family.
Is this your biological family?
Biological family too. I've got, yeah, three adult children and, a husband of 30 years. And,
Wow.
yeah, my parents are still around and my in-laws and I, I actually have a really lovely extended
family as well,
Oh, you're so blessed.
and not every, and I realize that it doesn't always work out that way.
So I feel very, very lucky to have that in my life as well as many good friends that I have, um,
cultivated along the way. And I do lean on all of them for different, I mean, last role change that
I made, um. It was actually my kids who were like, mom, why are you still doing this? Like,
what, what is this about?
Do you think you need more money to retire? 'cause we think you're fine. We actually don't
understand what this is, so maybe you should be looking for something. I was like, oh gosh,
you guys are right. You're absolutely right. Why am I making myself frustrated over the
situation?
That's so great.
they're, they're, it's great and very levelheaded and so it's nice to have
That's awesome. That's so wonderful to have people in your life that you trust who will point
out to you when you've somehow got your head stuck in a jar, you know, in the sand,
Exactly
like,
Say, um,
whatcha doing?
sense
Yeah.
to listen to that. You kind of, you have to trust people to do
Mm-hmm.
part of that cultivating in advance of the need.
Yeah.
if you wait until you need that, it's gonna be too late. And so making sure you've got those
people there. Yeah.
might be the bumper for the episode, cultivate in advance of the need. That's good advice. All
right. Your last question from the private ledger. What's one investment that you're making now
for your emotional or spiritual physical health?
I am consciously setting aside time to be engaged in things that really fill me up. And not to say
that my work doesn't 'cause it, it does in many, many ways, consciously setting aside hours
that I can use for me, I, it's really about giving back to community, I said the organization that
I'm on the board for, Gifted Ones , is amazing. And the work that they're trying to do to help the
helpers, they help, you know,
Hmm.
they do a lot of things for people with passion. They're doing a lot of work around, helping
mental health professionals, which is just personally I think something that's a fabulous place
for us all to be involved with.
Hmm.
I mentor through a program called STEM Advantage. So, typically, girls in less, able
environments to get into technology fields, and helping them see the possibilities. Those for me
are the things that really fill me up and get me excited about, you know, whatever's gonna be
next chapter in my life.
And the world is crazy right now. And knowing that you can make like a little bit of a difference
in making someone's life better,
Yeah.
is important to me.
Yeah, I love that and I, I totally agree. I think all of us can fall into this despair. we unfortunately
have the ability to see so many things going wrong all the time, which, to be honest, in human
history, there's been lots of times when many, many things were going wrong, all at the same
time, but we didn't have a globally connected media and, citizen journalists who could show
that everywhere.
So it wasn't the same mental burden.
I I say this all the time that, the way I get myself out when I start feeling really worried about the
state of the world is humans will survive this. Humans have survived things that are much,
much worse than our current situations at any point in time in history and then I go back to, but
my family, my life, my way of working, right? but yeah, it's, it's certainly interesting.
I was gonna say we can all fall victim to seeing so much that's bad that happens in the world.
And actually that's kind of part of why I've ended up loving doing this podcast, is I get to talk to
the helpers, you know.
people out there, man. There's a lot people doing
There's a, yeah. Just because they're not like the head of Amazon or whatever, but there's
people high up in important organizations doing important work.
I was just a, a groundbreaking for one of my previous guests, Ginger Hitzke, 'cause she helped
develop this property that's gonna house hundreds of people in a neighborhood where the
home ownership is like only 9% of the population and they're gonna be moving toward ,
basically rent to own
Yeah.
And it's partially, you know, funded through the government. Like these are the things that are
happening all the time. The helpers are everywhere, but we don't see it because that's not
what makes the news.
right? It's
Yeah.
getting covered. I, I tell you one of the things that, is very inspiring to me. I've been in a number
of conferences over the last year where we're talking about the changing nature of work and all
the new technologies and things that are coming and influencing the number of people I've
connected with at other companies and across organizations that are really concerned and
looking for solutions of how to help people
just broadly. How do we help us as a society get through this and get onto the next level?
We're barely have recovered from , I shouldn't say barely, we haven't recovered from the
changes in communication and what social media has done to us. Our brains are not wired to
change that quickly. And now we're throwing all of this new stuff on top of it with AI and with,
additional ways of connecting. And humans can't process that quickly. So what are we gonna
do? We are in a position to help figure out how to make work, work differently. , What's that
gonna look like? And it gives me hope.
Gives me a lot of hope.
I love that. Alright, we have two questions left. Uh, so I like to invite my guests to reflect. What
do you wish more leaders felt permission to say out loud?
I would love to hear more leaders just express their own humanity. That idea that I'm tired too,
I'm,
Hmm.
you, right. I'm I, whatever, whatever that is. And not have to have the veneer of having answers
all the time. And I don't see a lot of leaders doing that.
Yeah. Do you see anyone who does? I'm wondering if you know an example.
You know, I, I will say I have had the pleasure of working with some folks recently who have,
there's a lot of people in my current organization who are very much that way. Every so often
you'll see someone out in the political arena, the world out there that's like, okay, listen, I'm, I'm
tired and I've just gotta take a break. I've seen it in my volunteer organizations where people
are starting to be able, and part of, it's the people I surround myself with by saying, you know
what, here's where I am right now. I'd like to be up here, but I'm actually down, a couple of
clicks below. I'm not gonna be a hundred percent in this conversation as a result.
And just acknowledging that
Yeah.
for everyone else. , I'm actually trying to use that a little bit more with my own teams and
departments is the, let's check in, where are we today? What's
yeah.
of the day? And I, time one of my, folks on my team said, frenetic, everything feels frenetic.
And I was like, okay,
Nice.
great word. And not only are we getting a vocabulary lesson, but we're all diving into what's
this feel like in our guts And
Yeah.
before you lean in to whatever it is you're trying to solve helps you come together and figure
out how much are we really gonna get accomplished right now. I would love to see more
leaders in our world and more leaders in business acknowledge acknowledge when things are
going good and bad,
Yeah.
kind of put that human side out there. Yep.
I agree. I agree. And we can be part of that change. We'll just model it and hope that there is
more of it. Yeah. I feel the same way. I, I learned a long time ago just the kind of provider that I
am, it works really well for me to offer personal disclosure in my therapeutic and coaching
work.
You know, making sure it's not about me, but, yeah, people, are so in their own thing and
everybody, for whatever reason, even though. Maybe a lot of us know this isn't true on a
conscious, intelligence level. We know we're not the only ones having a hard time or being tired
or whatever, but we forget, and everyone's just walking around thinking they're the only one
having their problem.
And it's like,
Yeah.
and it's such a shame, alleviator to just say, no, I've been there and here's a story.
Yeah. And I think doing it in the moment, what I'm finding is the more I can have these
conversations with the folks I work with about really authentically how am I showing up in that
moment and what is that gonna mean for the situation at hand? you don't wanna always be
right at some point you, you gotta get outta that.
That can't be like the, always the, the
Yeah.
but really honest about it is opening up better conversations and we're coming to better
solutions. We're coming up with better answers together. 'cause we're all very aware of where
we are at that point in time.
Nice. Before I get to our last question, I wanna offer, and because I never know,
how would you, like to leave our audience in terms of connecting with you or connecting with
your work?
as you can tell, I love connecting with people.
Mm-hmm.
cannot always guarantee it'll be an immediate response, but certainly, enjoy the reach outs and
LinkedIn's a great place
Okay.
to catch me, and Go Gifted Ones. It's a central Florida based organization. Look them up too.
You
Okay.
all their information on my LinkedIn site as well.
Awesome. Well, those will be in the show notes for folks who listen and wanna be in touch. All
right, this comes to our last question. If you could go back in time, this is our time machine
question,
where would you go and what would you say to yourself earlier in your career?
I would go back to probably that first time I was having to make a decision about whether I was
gonna pivot to something else or not. Really early, like internship level and just say, it's gonna
be okay. Trust your instincts. Don't get too wound up in this. What you're doing now does not
have to last forever.
Yes. I love that. It reminds me of a story, some sci-fi story I read where everyone in this society
would at some point get a notification about what they were supposed to be doing in life, and
you never knew when it was gonna come, but everyone got it at some point.
And the thing I remember about the story is you would see bridges unfinished because the
bridge maker got the notification that they were supposed to do so.
cool.
Yeah, something else. And I, I mean there's some people who are probably like, no, all the
unfinished things, but, but I love that, that we can, to me it just gave permission and that's
what you're doing too, permission to just say, do it for a while.
Do it for what you learn. When it's time to be done, move on.
exactly.
Speaking of moving on, that's what we've gotta do. Thank you so much for being here with us.
I, this has been great. Thank you so much for the conversation.
Absolutely. It has been my pleasure.
📍 Thanks for listening to Lonely At the Top. If today's conversation resonated, I hope you'll
give yourself permission to pause even for just a second and check in with what you might be
carrying.
You don't have to hold it all alone. I work with high performers and leaders who wanna clean
up their secret messes, and you can find out more about me at RachelAlexandria.com. If you
know another leader who needs to hear this conversation, please send it their way, because,
yeah, it's lonely at the top, but it doesn't have to stay that way.