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Conversations with marketing leaders on how collaboration and creativity are completely free power-ups for their team.
Hello, and welcome to Building Creative. I'm Joel Carter, and this is another conversation on how collaboration and creativity is like the best free power up for marketing teams. Today, I have Matt Wagner with me to talk about some key aspects of creativity. Welcome to the show, Matt.
Matt Wagner:Thanks, Joel. Glad to be here.
Joel Carter:Well, why don't you, for folks that are meeting for the first time or have never heard your name, why don't you share a little bit about you and and what you do?
Matt Wagner:Well, I don't know that most people will will know me, but I have about 25 years of, communications, marketing, and journalism experience and, have bounced around, in those realms quite a bit. Right now, I'm currently in corporate communications at a at a good size financial technology firm that serves community and regional financial institutions. And, but we are always looking for ways to inject creativity into everything we do there, and I'm just someone who loves to to do that on a daily basis.
Joel Carter:Yeah. So you kind of already hinted at one of the one of the key reasons why I wanted to talk to you, which is is just your experience. So you're at a, you know, a a fintech company right now, and you've spent, you know, I'm aware that you've spent a good number of years, in in the accounting space. So both spaces that are very buttoned up and professional. And so the second, you know, I thought of you, I, you know, it struck me that, like, you're you're a perfect, guinea pig, I guess, for this topic, which is so the research is pretty clear.
Joel Carter:Creativity is is can can create a incredibly strong advantage. I'm curious if you have any thoughts on why so many organizations, especially in the spaces that you've played, especially in, you know, b to b space, why do they shy away from work that is bold and creative and different?
Matt Wagner:It's a good question. I think, a lot of it depends on the people in charge. Right? Everyone has experience with different types of personalities, different types of bosses. Do they want you to ask questions?
Matt Wagner:Do they want to hear ideas? Do they want to hear, you know, lots of different ideas and how they might interact with each other? Or do they want the do they wanna be able to go to bed at night knowing that everything kind of works on a system and a process and that it just goes down an assembly line. I think when when you and I worked together, we talked a lot about that assembly line approach. And for a large organization, it just helps, I think, some managers sleep better at night to know that we've processed this thing down to the nth degree.
Matt Wagner:And now, creativity isn't as necessary because we have a brand. We have our brand guidelines. We have all of these various teams. Everyone's responsible for this or that or the other. And, it should take care of itself, but we know that's not how it really works.
Matt Wagner:So, I think I think it has to be built into your workplace and it has to be the expectation that there are going to be creative discussions about everything, even things that may not initially seem like they need a creative approach. I'd argue there's a lot of things that could benefit from saying, well, why don't we think about this and ask some questions and kick around some ideas even though it may seem like a a relatively standard type project? So I think a lot of it is is the expectation of, do you have that openness? Do you have do you encourage people to to come up with with questions and ideas and open open it up to there's always potentially a better way or a more clever way or a more, effective way from a marketing standpoint to accomplish whatever your goals are.
Joel Carter:Yeah. So I I feel like I could I could split off of that thought 2 different directions, and we we won't head one direction, but one direction would be if you find yourself at a at an organization where the leader doesn't want anything questioned, where they just want, to to accept the the thought and move forward. That, you know, my answer to those folk would be run, run fast, like, you know, get the heck out of there. But I don't know that we should go into that today because that's, it's just a tough conversation to have. So I guess what I would ask is, all right, let's, let's say you're at an organization that that maybe doesn't, really encourage that, but yet again, and I, I should follow-up later with like actual studies, but you know, there's, there's a number of studies out there that show up to even like 20, 30 percent sort of boost in whatever the primary target is with a creative approach.
Joel Carter:What's your take on, is it worth it to try to sell a creative approach or creativity to the organization, knowing that there's that big of a potential gain there? Or, or is it just sometimes it's impossible to to move a rock?
Matt Wagner:I I think creatively minded individuals don't know how to operate any other way. And so that's the way you approach everything. So if you are a a creatively minded individual within an in house marketing department, that's that's part of what drives you and that's how you're going to approach your job. And I think that by, by just by the very nature of who you are and how you work, you're going to want to push that envelope. And and like we talked about, there are different personalities and there are different management types.
Matt Wagner:But at the end of the day, you know, I think I think if you are that type of person and you operate like that, you're going to one way or another, you're going to end up trying to sell some creative ideas because there's something inside of the you that has to has to sort of play that create creativity out and and see it happen and see the benefits and hopefully reap the rewards. And so I think it's it can be an a real slog, I think, to to pull that off, within an organization. But for a lot of people, I think it's who they are and they can't operate any other way. And so that may be irritating to certain types of people that they work with or it could be, you know, I think you just have to be persistent. You know, I think when we worked together, it was always kind of this my my the way I characterized it was polite but firm.
Matt Wagner:You know, stand your ground and and stick to your guns. If you think there's benefit there for a creative approach, don't don't back down, you know, push it. And and, you know, if someone says, okay, okay, we we get it, you know, we're we'll think about it next time, then so be it. But but I think if one of those times you're going to eventually be able to break through, and and I think with the right approach and the right, resources, you know, hopefully, you can you can get a win. And if you put that in your in your win column, then that's how you start changing minds about about things like that.
Matt Wagner:If they see results, then all of a sudden that's a game changer, and you can start to operate from a little bit higher up in in their opinion of you and and see maybe why that creativity pays off in the way that you say studies have shown that it that it
Joel Carter:does. There's it's it's kinda like leading behind leading from behind where
Matt Wagner:Or managing up. Yeah.
Joel Carter:Yeah. Managing up script. Yep. Absolutely. So there there's a little bit of of a veiled threat though, I think, in what you said in that, like, creativity is a way of being.
Joel Carter:And I I I mean, that that just that resonates with me, but it also seemed seems to suggest that if you're not careful living at a place where it is not or working at a place where it is not a way of being, it can be dangerous. It can if if you don't stand your ground, then you will eventually just lose it or or, you know, it will disappear.
Matt Wagner:And I think I think it can also be exhausting. I mean, does anybody wanna be in a situation where you're going against the grain all the time? And so to be in, you know, to some degree, yes, marketing has a purpose and that that is to, successfully, you know, turn people on to whatever you're selling and make more money for the company and bring more customers in and retain more customers. And and and I see that, but there's there's clearly so many examples out there of of how, creativity, plays into that and can can can really, pay off. And so I think, you know, it's it's important to choose wisely and to be in a place that hopefully appreciates that.
Matt Wagner:And I think, you know, there's definitely a lot that can be discussed in terms of how do you tip the scales in an organization like that where you definitely have a creative block, but there's some resistance elsewhere. And, you know, if I could tell you that today, I'd probably be making 1,000,000 of dollars, but I think good old fashioned persistence and results are are the way you get it and also just an an openness. And I think too many times these days, everyone has these these, entrenched opinions about the way things should be done. What's the harm in talking through doing things a different way, giving it a try? And a lot of people would say, well, time and and resources.
Matt Wagner:But, you know, I don't know that that that's the best the best response. I think I think what are we doing if we're not at least trying new things and seeing if they work? I mean, anyone, at least in life, I try to try to do those things. If I see something that's not working, I try new and different things to make it easier or better or, you know know what what have you. But but I think it it can be hard to be in in a system where there's resistance.
Matt Wagner:And I think you just have to, again, I think you have to kind of kind of continue to work on it, convince people, show them that there can be a benefit to doing that. And then it also I mean, honestly, at the end of the day, that some of the creative pursuits we've worked on, it was just fun. It was there was so it was rewarding in a way that was was fun, and you just enjoyed your job. You didn't feel like a job. You were coming up with interesting ideas, some not so interesting ideas, you know, that that were left on the cutting room floor, but you stepped on those to get up to where where you needed to be.
Matt Wagner:And so, I mean, I think we don't we we focus so much on the end result. We don't think about the joy of getting there, and that creativity is is huge when you're talking about the joy of of go getting there. And maybe it's not hugely successful, but if you're gonna do something and get the same result with or without creativity, I think people are gonna enjoy the creative route much more.
Joel Carter:Yeah. Well, it it seems like there's a better chance of of retaining creative staff if you allow them to have those moments where they deviate or try different things rather than just the constant race to 0 in terms of like the most efficient output product ever. What we're kind of hanging out in like high level territory, you know, and you know, you did note like persistence and standing your ground, but are there any really tactical ways that you can think help sell or move creative thought forward in an organization, especially one that's, you know, maybe anti or it's it's just not their, you know, natural DNA. But anything, like, real tactical that you can recommend.
Matt Wagner:I mean, I would when I think back about some of the things we worked on together, I remember you showing me lots of examples of things that just landed. Right? There were things that, you know, most people are gonna say, oh, that that was done really well. I like that. I can see why that was a successful campaign.
Matt Wagner:That was clever. That was effective. That made me laugh. That was memorable for for whatever emotion it was it was tugging on. And so I think sometimes you gotta go back to, you know, what's been done and show a little bit of of I'm I'm not this is not new.
Matt Wagner:I'm not I'm not creating creativity. I am showing you that it has a long track record of being really successful when done right. And so if you can show people those examples and say, there's no reason we can't do this. This makes you feel great. Right?
Matt Wagner:This makes you see how effective this was for this this business. We can we can do that too if we allow ourselves to. I think the allowing part is is the big part of it is you have to be okay with maybe changing your processes or relaxing your processes and opening up a little bit more discussion, allowing time for things that aren't tasks being knocked out. It's it's there's a you know, I've heard the term question storming and brainstorming and these things that that are a little bit more deliberate and maybe a little bit more time consuming. But in the end, you know, those things can can really pay off.
Matt Wagner:And I think if you can show some successful examples and also say, this also wasn't done overnight or in a very rigid structure. It it was done in a more open free flow environment. And that's not to say that we don't have timelines and deadlines and and and and goals we have to hit within a certain time frame. That's just the reality. But, I do think that looking at those previous examples is, like, if you can't sell one of your own ideas, sell someone else's idea that was a big success.
Matt Wagner:And if you can show how that was successful, then then maybe flip that switch for for someone in their brain and they start to say, I think you're right. Maybe we could do something like this. It's just a I think it's just a it's just a shift in mindset.
Joel Carter:That that that's good because it reminds me of a couple of things. It reminds me one that, I mean, we often have to sell things and sometimes it's it's to a customer. But in in a lot of cases, by the way, I hate the concept of someone internal is your customer. But there is a little bit of, like, you do have to sell this idea.
Matt Wagner:Absolutely.
Joel Carter:And so then if you're going to sell, you have to meet them where they're at, and and that's kind of exactly what you're recommending by showing, suggesting you show examples and then it seems like, well, while you're showing them examples, show them ones that are more likely to to to fit their personality, their nature. The other thing that you that I kind of feel like I heard you say is there's a little bit of just like by exposing someone to a concept, like, by selling the idea of a creative approach to something and doing it over and over and over, you're exposing them to an idea where maybe you do it enough times that eventually it's their own idea. Right. Absolutely. Rarely buy something big or complex or the the first time.
Joel Carter:So maybe it's a reminder there then for the folks out there that that do not necessarily live in a culture of innovation and creative thinking and and failures and mistakes to get to good things that you might need to just sort of sell and sell again and sell again. I know you're gonna fail a number of times, but eventually you'll win. Right. Show that success and and then ladder up from there. Any other
Matt Wagner:I I think I was just gonna say, I think, that approach works well. You can play the long game. You can sit down in some conference rooms like we did, and we I I mean, I think the first thing that we always said was forget everything you know about the way we operate. Like, just for a second, don't know our company and everything it knows and the way it has operated, and just act like this is act like you were just born yesterday and and hear this hear about some of these concepts and ideas elsewhere. And then as that person starts to as as you start to see a positive reaction and you start to build that rapport and understanding with that person about, see, this is how creativity works and how it can pay off, is when you start to slip in to that mode of now I'm gone from telling you about other ideas that have been successful, and I'm starting to get your brain to think about the idea that I want you to consider and and start to sell it like that.
Matt Wagner:Because once you open their brain up like that and get them to where you want, that that's the in my mind, that's the time to strike and say say, so imagine if we did this and this is how we approached it. And, again, don't don't try not to critique. Try not to compare us to any competitors. Just just keep your your mind wide open to this right now and think about the other examples I provided. Why couldn't we be the next example of of that success?
Matt Wagner:And then someone else is telling their boss about, did you see the way they did this? This is a company that you would never expect to do this and look at what they did. And there's so many examples of that out there, and and I love that. I love those ones where it's unexpected, and you don't you you think when they take something, like accounting, for example, that we talked about earlier, How many creative people wanna tackle that? Not very many, but, like, their company their industries out there and companies with those industries that, you know, people are sleeping on and they're they're doing they're doing fantastic work.
Matt Wagner:And and there are plenty of good examples out there, I think, that people can can turn to and and use as inspiration.
Joel Carter:Absolutely. And, listen, I'm making notes. Next time, I think we need to talk about competitors and the way we look at competitors. I mean, it's a it's a it's really frustrating. But I I feel like if I could kind of recap or set the stage, it's we have the idea of being in an organization that is maybe, they have their teeth on edge to the idea of creative or novel or different approaches.
Joel Carter:There's a number of things for folk to remember. And one is is like it's a way of being, don't give it up, trust yourself, trust your instinct. I made another note. If I if I could sell, and I don't I don't think I can because you can't box it up. But if I could sell perspective and confidence, that alone, I feel like would solve so many problems For sure.
Joel Carter:For those in the creative and marketing space. But so it's a way of being stand your ground and be persistent because that persistence will will expose leadership to new and different ideas to where eventually they don't sound so strange and foreign. Remember that it's a series of breakthroughs. It takes baby steps to get there. And, and, you know, you talked about the joy of the journey.
Joel Carter:So there's the joy of the journey of the creative process. But I even kinda wonder, maybe there's joy in the journey of, of just selling creative in a place that maybe doesn't have a creative creative bone in their body. And, I
Matt Wagner:mean, it's nice it's nice to have a a manager later on down the road go, yeah, I didn't really think we could do this. Right? I didn't I wasn't sure how we would do this. But after we talked through it and we did a few projects and you guys came up with some great ideas, I'm sold. Like, when you win something somebody over like that, like, again, we talked earlier about, like, yeah, it'd be great to just get into the type of environment that appreciates that and and wants that and encourages that.
Matt Wagner:That's not always the case. So, you know, at the end of the day, we're all sales people. Right? With with whoever we're your your influence is sometimes your greatest superpower. And so so taking taking that to, someone who's a non believer doesn't think it has a place and having them come back later and say, yeah.
Matt Wagner:Yeah. You sold me. And changing their way of thinking so that people who come after you won't have to hopefully fight that fight.
Joel Carter:Yes. Yes. And I I love what you hinted about there too in that sort of it's it's that desired future state in that, like, why couldn't we be the next version of this? Like, everyone's gonna everyone's gonna laugh at that. What's the is it is it GEICO or is it GEICO with the the camel walking around, you know, on hump day?
Joel Carter:Mhmm. Yep. You know? And everyone loves it, but it's like, why can't we do the next version of that? What's stopping us?
Matt Wagner:Exactly. Yeah. Nothing. Because because at the end of the day, you know, I'm sure there was a lot of iterations there. And, you know, or maybe one of the first guys in the room said, well, we could have a Campbell of hump day and everybody goes, that's stupid.
Matt Wagner:Why would we do that? And after all of the ideas came out, they're like, yeah, I remember when Brick said we could have a, you know, camel and just do hump day, and you come full circle and you're like, sometimes, you know, every now and then that first thing you throw up on the wall or one of the first few things you throw up on the wall after all of the discussions and the brainstorming and the the, you know, back and forth of, like, what's the right answer? Sometimes there's just beauty in that sort of sort of goofy, fun, memorable thing that that and when you look back, you spent all that time, but really, like, it was one of the first things that came out. So just opening the door to some of those ideas, I feel like that. I I'm very much a, like, a word vomit or an idea vomit type of guy.
Matt Wagner:And so when I realized I need to start coming up with ideas for something and coming up with some creative approaches, I just sling everything up there. And and a lot of it is terrible, but, like, I'll say in that first run of ideas, there's some gems hiding in there. They might need a little bit of a polish, but but but sometimes you go back to you spend so much time trying to refine it, and you go back and go, I was pretty close right out of the gate. But you have to have that you have to have that that type of of atmosphere where where it's encouraged to to throw out because people do you know, I was listening to I think it was a LinkedIn Learning course this week about, about creativity and you have to. People don't want to feel stupid and they don't want to feel like they're being judged.
Matt Wagner:And, and, and you have to have that no judgment sort of this is all ideas are okay. Ideas. And yes, there's going to be some, some strange stuff and some bad stuff and some really good stuff probably in the midst of all of it. But, like, people I think that's part of it too is just when you have people who respect that and open the door to that sort of thinking, you're just gonna get a lot more participation. And and you talked about confidence as it some people just don't feel confident that they can share their ideas, and they may be sitting on a fantastic Yes.
Matt Wagner:Idea that that that they just are afraid to voice.
Joel Carter:Yes. Absolutely. On the on the last episode with, Anthony Matrone, we talked about we we ended up kind of discovering 4 or 5 key ways that that you can give teams psychological safety to to feel free to to come up with ideas that are off the wall. I mean, even even to kinda kind of a throwback to to recommend folks go out and listen to it. It you know, even the idea we're we're so good at saying, like, listen, there's no bad ideas.
Joel Carter:But sometimes even by saying that kinda suggests that there are bad ideas. And so it's like, what what are other ways that we can suggest? And honestly, I think a lot of it comes through leadership. But, Will, I I wanna have you back on for a couple of different topics, but one specifically on on idea generation because I, to some folks it looks like magic, but I also think there are systematic ways that creatives approach it. But man for today, I I love this.
Joel Carter:I love that we kind of explored what it looks like to sell, especially at organizations that are are kind of just don't have it in their DNA. So Right. Thanks thanks for, thanks for joining me. And can people find you online or, reach out anywhere if they wanted to chat?
Matt Wagner:Yeah. Always love to connect with people on LinkedIn. Matt Wagner. I'm with Jack Henry and Associates. And, reach out if you if you wanna connect.
Matt Wagner:Always excited to build a network.
Joel Carter:Awesome. Well, thanks. Well, folks, that's it for today. I'm Joel Carter, and this is Matt Wagner. And I hope you join me again next time for building creative.